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Can you please explain to a non-America what is that message is? I hear this refrain all the time and all I get is a vague insinuation that people are not being
by underwater 2y ago
Can you please explain to a non-America what is that message is? I hear this refrain all the time and all I get is a vague insinuation that people are not being listened to.
- CodinM 2y agoThe message is the same even for non-America - we need to engage with these folks and stop disparaging them. We need to talk to them, we need to understand where they're coming from, we need to help clear the air between "us and them" so that there won't be an "us and them" and so we can _together_ avoid people that tell us what we want to hear.
- stavros 2y agoThat's not what the GP means, the popular vote is likely to be for the Democrats, as has happened basically every election. It's only because of the electoral college system that Republicans win the presidency.
- Tainnor 2y agoThe current results are unfortunately such a blowout that Trump may very well be winning the popular vote. I guess this is what OP was referring to.
- stavros 2y agoAh interesting, I don't know enough about which states do what. Is it not at the point where the states we knew the results of have been tallied, and the swing states are still unknown?
- verisimi 2y ago[flagged]
- DeathArrow 2y agoBut they do have free elections.
- verisimi 2y agoYes - they are free to vote, and the electoral college then selects who they put their votes towards to represent the voters, which is in line with the majority voting sentiment.
- vote4felon 2y agoI would respectfully suggest you check the results before commenting, but I know reading TFA isn’t all that popular anymore. Trump is currently leading by over 5,000,000 votes and there does not appear to be momentum to change that lead in the remaining precincts.
- ookblah 2y agoI bought that line in 2016 and again in 2020. I'm not saying I'm done with trying to understand, but that level of fks to give is very minimal now. Obviously, I don't think 50% of the population is stupid, but every time I try to "understand" it's becoming increasingly clear it's about his "charisma" and "our team" and less about hard policies. People out here voting against their own interests or blaming things on ignorance (inflation, etc.).
- XenophileJKO 2y agoI think the lesson is you can't win an election with "Well they aren't like the other guy.."
- TheCoelacanth 2y agoAlso can't win with substantive policies or personal integrity either, so what's left?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- EricDeb 2y agoShe didnt explain why inflation happened. She didnt explain why dems did not crack down on the border until right wingers made an issue out of it. She didnt distance herself from biden. She didnt explain how she would protect abortion rights. I wanted her to win but she didnt have answers or her messaging was not getting through
- a1j9o94 2y agoInflation: "inflation has come down over the last two years, a lot of it has been from the healing of the supply side of the economy. What is that? Supply chains have improved. The labor force has expanded, partly due to increased immigration, and that's helped to take some of the edge off of the supply-and-demand imbalances that we had when inflation was very high two years ago." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/examining-how-economic-plans-from-trump-and-harris-could-affect-inflation https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/examining-how-economic-pla... Immigration: "After hitting a record high in December 2023, the numbers of migrants crossing the border has plummeted since then. Harris and the administration have credited their tough anti-asylum measures for stemming the flow, although increased enforcement on the Mexican side has also played a key role." https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/elections/2024/where-trump-and-harris-stand-on-immigration-and-border-security/ https://www.ap.org/news-highlights/elections/2024/where-trum... Abortion rights: "At one of her first campaign events, she stated that if Congress “passes a law to restore reproductive freedom, as president of the United States I will sign it into law.”" https://www.aclu.org/news/reproductive-freedom/how-kamala-harris-can-secure-federal-abortion-protection-once-and-for-all https://www.aclu.org/news/reproductive-freedom/how-kamala-ha... If you don't like what her positions are that's your prerogative but it's just not true that she did not have answers to these questions.
- watwut 2y agoMeh, it is clear where they care coming from and they talk quite clearly. What we need to do is to stop like naïve Pollyanna's, stop relying on fact checks, stop pretending "both sides are equal" and engage with dirty fight they do.
- Tainnor 2y agoWhat "dirty fight" are you envisioning? Prosecuting Trump in court doesn't appear to work and is disparaged as "lawfare". Biden calling Trump voters trash apparently backfires, but nothing Trump or his campaign says ever backfires.
- watwut 2y agoProsecuting Trump in court is not dirty fight. It is something that should have happen, because being politician should not mean being lawless. I envision actual politicians and journalists calling trump what he is more rather then less.
- rob74 2y ago> politician should not mean being lawless Well, the US Supreme Court decided more or less exactly that presidents can break the law and get away with it: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czrrv8yg3nvo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czrrv8yg3nvo And "calling him what he is" has so far failed to sway his supporters, I don't see how it will do it now. OTOH, he (probably?) won't stand for election again, so the point is probably moot...
- watwut 2y agoDemocratic party goes out of its way to look center, be accommodating and non confrontial. It just does not work. I stand by "politician should not mean being lawless". US Supreme Court being pro lawless when it comes to GOP is just politics of US Supreme Court. It does not mean law should not matter or that trying to apply law is fighting dirty.
- 2y ago
- card_zero 2y agoI was just thinking the exact opposite, maybe the US needs to split into two nations. I was drawing border lines in my mind around central regions and wondering how things would pan out if they seceded. The lack of geographic continuity would be a problem for the coasts, but perhaps they could join Canada.
- sixothree 2y ago[flagged]
- roenxi 2y agoThe Joye of Ye Taxes is that you cannot choose to stop paying them just because of a disagreement about how they are spent. Elections need to be won first.
- verisimi 2y agoDidn't the south try this, before being forced back into the "union"?
- card_zero 2y agoTrue, that was an awkward episode. Now you've got me reading about the motivations for the civil war. I mean obviously slavery, but why go to war rather than let the Confederacy be a separate nation? Seems the fighting was over the political future of yet-to-be Arizona, New Mexico and Oklahoma (if I've got the right territories there), and whether they would have slavery, once populated.
- themaninthedark 2y agoBecause the south decided to start shooting up Federal Forts and killing tax collectors.
- ncruces 2y agoTry splitting Georgia, where Harris wins a few populous counties with a 30 to 70 pp margin, and Trump leads the lump of smaller counties with a 30 to 70 pp margin. They reelected the DA that's prosecuting Trump on one of the populous counties, on the same election where the state swung further towards Trump.
- astrange 2y agoYou're losing if you write like this, because this is liberal/left wing writing. If the voters prioritize strength and machismo, you should be insulting them even more. They don't mind, they'll just assume it's about someone else.
- djtango 2y agoYes and the media needs to stop being so obviously biased because it both undermines their role as the arbiters of truth and it undermines the party they allegedly want to win I liked this podcast from Zachary Elwood: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5DYBm6we1WcTtktFpqHj7K?si=As4OdKQERiq7UsMfZjW5LQ https://open.spotify.com/episode/5DYBm6we1WcTtktFpqHj7K?si=A...
- Bost 2y agoWe need to understand that such people want to be distracted and entertained. Give them the show they want, promise them something and they happily make you their king. They don't ask you to fulfill the promises. They just want to hear them. That's it.
- PunchTornado 2y agothe message is: we don't want immigrants, we don't want to help other countries at our short term cost (even if it is a long term gain for us). like it or not, this is what people want.
- galfarragem 2y agoRephrased: we, the average tax payers, want prosperity too.
- hcfman 2y agoWell, so long as prosperity doesn't mean cheaper TVs with Chinese parts in them. I guess they will have to buy American TVs from now on.
- dgfitz 2y agoI’ve seen more than a few comments and tips on HN about how to keep one’s TV from phoning China.
- fabioborellini 2y agoBut you aren't getting any with this ticket. There is no political force in the US that would question the trickle-down fairytales, and your broken elections system won't allow one to emerge. So you vote for change, yet the economics policies stay as unequal as always. But in the process you supported a rapist and a criminal who calls execution of journalists, suppression of women, blatant racism and just death and destruction of non-privileged people everywhere.
- DiscourseFan 2y agoif the genuinely unprivileged gain some consciousness of their condition because of Trump, there will be changed. You cannot claim it for them.
- 2y ago
- dzonga 2y agodon't take the voters as stupid, don't impose candidates who can't 1 win a 1 horse race. pretty much the democratic party has to introspect and stop blaming voters for their failed campaign.
- walterbell 2y agoBill Ackman, https://x.com/billackman/status/1854019674385547454 https://x.com/billackman/status/1854019674385547454 > The Democratic Party.. lied to the American people about the cognitive health and fitness of the president. It prevented, threatened, litigated and otherwise eliminated the ability of other [Democratic] candidates for the primary to compete, to get on ballots, and to even participate in a debate.
- formerly_proven 2y agoIsn't that sentence literally true for the Republican party as well? So how would it be a differentiating factor?
- walterbell 2y agoThere was a 2024 Republican Presidential Primary, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_Party_presidential_primaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_Party_presiden...
- stouset 2y agoAnd it turns out the voters don’t seem to actually care about the cognitive health of the President, nor do they seem to care about being lied to about it.
- walterbell 2y agoJoe Rogan's three-hour interview of one candidate got 40M+ views.
- watwut 2y ago[flagged]
- matt-attack 2y agoWow you couldn’t misinterpret this any more.
- aydyn 2y agoGP is indistinguishable from a bot. Treat him that way.
- watwut 2y agoI am interpreting it correctly. Donald Trum is repeated choice of GOP and its voters. He won twice. They are choosing him, because they want exactly what he is, who he chooses to cooperate with, who he picks for supreme Court. He is not some kind of outlier either. There is whole network of media, influencers, think tanks doing the same to various degree. The same kind of rhetoric was here for years. This is explicit choice.
- xenospn 2y agoMy thinking exactly. Just steamroll over everyone with disregard.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fny 2y agoInflation. Record illegal immigration. Identity politics. Inflation. An anointed candidate. Perceived censorship. Inflation. Income inequality. Cover ups. Inflation. I’m not saying Trump will fix any of this. I’m just saying people feel like PC culture has gone over the top while a 20oz Coke has tripled in price. Harris campaigned on “we’re not going back” but a lot of people would trade Trump’s insanity for housing prices of yore.
- ddorian43 2y agoWasn't the inflation done by Trump though? Not allowing Powell to raise rates and threatening to remove him?
- fny 2y agoI completely agree that Trump printed a ton of money, but Biden also continued to print a ton of money. In addition, people tend to associate outcomes with the administration in power even if it’s due to a prior administration. Inflation appeared under Biden, not Trump. Inflation decreasing also does not mean prices decreasing.
- tomrod 2y agoYes. We Americans have the collective memory of a Mayfly and the inability to pay attention to things that drive actual inflation that take a lot of time to resolve, like bad housing policy, logistics logjams, and starving the beastly budget needed for oversight.
- jpamata 2y agoCould be, or the Ukraine war, the pandemic, or some other policy It's nonfalsifiable. People will settle on the simplest observation: it happened under Biden
- EricDeb 2y agoof course. And this was a failure of messaging by dems
- pavlov 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- laborcontract 2y agoI agree that it's a clear message. The messaging the last time Trump won the election was that the electoral college was broken, Trump lost the popular vote, Americans deserve better. 8 years later, after all of this political baggage, prosecution, and media repudiation the Democrats managed to lose in resounding manner – not just the electoral college, but the senate, house, and popular vote. This is after what is arguably a great Biden presidency, economy-wise. The Democrats have centered their entire identity for the last 8 years about being anti-Trump. There are no bright spots in the results for them, no messaging that they can hang their hat on, and build on going forward. From a base building perspective, this is brutal. The next election is square one for them.
- stuaxo 2y agoThe Democrats never seem to do much about the system when in power.
- tstrimple 2y agoMy new unhealthy conspiracy theory is democrats like being perpetually in the minority where they can talk a good game but don’t actually have to follow through on anything. That’s why they always tack right and try to compromise with people who call them enemies and groomers and demons. “We’ll welcome them into our cabinet” never sat well with me in the era of Trump.
- astrange 2y agoPolls show voters think Harris/Walz were too liberal, not the other way round. They mostly haven't gone right either; Biden campaigned as a moderate and ran as the most progressive administration in my life. (Which was good! But voters hated it because they don't like change and don't like inflation.)
- tstrimple 2y agoThere are zero polls which show this.
- oldpersonintx 2y agothe message is America completely rejected the "establishment"
- dustedcodes 2y ago[flagged]
- Gasp0de 2y agoI don't understand everything you're saying, probably because I am not involved in day to day US political discussion, but a few of your points seem wildly exaggerated or misunderstood. No one is forcing anyone to turn any sons into daughters, are they? What you're really saying is that you don't want anyone to be allowed to change their gender. That's a quite prohibitive stance for a country that puts so much emphasis on freedom. What's this "male perverts sharing locker room" stuff about? Who's campaigning for letting random adults into kids locker rooms? Who's being forced to take an injection?
- selfmodruntime 2y agoThey are talking idpol in general.
- tekknik 2y agoIn California for instance if the child wants to transition then you must let it. If you attempt to stop it or guide them out of the decision in any way you’re at risk of having your child taken from you. That’s the force being used, do what we say or we’ll take your child.
- ninetyninenine 2y agoI believe Elons kid had this happen to him, hence why he’s so pro trump despite the fact that trump is pro oil industry. The lesser of two evils he said. Parent got voted down because HN is largely extremist left.
- tekknik 2y agoHN is very left for sure.
- deleted 2y ago
- komali2 2y agoEvery individual is a rational/irrational actor. I don't know the split of time they're irrational vs rational. Maybe 50/50. Some people are better than other people at convincing other people to do things in a certain way. Might have a little to do with genetics, probably more to do with education and size of platform, which is mostly a function of whose legs you popped out of and a little bit of whatever magic sauce makes you, you. Most people that are good at convincing other people to do things a certain way are doing so in a way to personally enrich themselves. Sometimes they have a little more empathy, or perhaps intelligence, and know the personal enrichment can't be too flagrant, but regardless they all share that goal. Unless one becomes too much of an outcast from the other good-convincers (think e.g. Lenin, Mao, CKS, Washington and his friends) and they convince everyone to go kill the followers of the other good-convincers until an equilibrium can be reached where either only one good-convincer is being enriched or at least both are to an acceptable degree. This dynamic will play out eternally. Part of the mechanism of good-convincerness being sustainable is that you never disturb that equilibrium too much, so in this case to ground it, hence why the democrats tried to pivot right to fight accusations of being leftists (an ideology very much opposed to this idea of the best convincers being extremely personally enriched). In the end, they didn't really lose. Kamala will continue to likely have a powerful political career, and if not she can at least write some books and die phenomally wealthy like Hillary will. Democrats can switch from having much federal power to being an opposition party. Nothing actually changes, the message simply switches from "give us votes and money to enshrine whatever it is you care about" to "give us votes and money to fight fascism rah rah." Both messages are of course a lie, the real message is "give us votes and money in a way that allows us to continue to collect votes and money." The message is that in the global zeitgeist, the natural human tendency among everyone, good convincer and not, for liberation, personal agency, and fulfilment, is obviously not being met when no matter where they turn there's someone telling them that if they want these things they have to all support a given good convincer. In the early Soviet Union, communist leaders too advantage of the opposite zeitgeist to achieve the same thing. Right now, the reactionaries have acquired a greater share of the zeitgeist, maybe because their messaging coincides well with several refugee crises and the inevitable climate refugee crisis. In my personal opinion these tendencies can't be rewarded in this form of top down hierarchy where it's good-convincers pitting their supporters against each other. Imo we can overcome the nurture and saecular aspects of what makes someone a good convincer (education, self determination, material conditions provided for) to make everyone more level in their ability to convince others to do things. Early societies had this more "flat" organization, where the best convincers lived basically on raw rhetorical ability (look up some old Cherokee transcriptions for their interactions with missionaries, they were genuinely hilarious and viciously good at humiliating rhetorical opponents), and even that could only go so far. During the Spanish civil war I believe the anarchists did a phenomenal job educating and "leveling the playing field" among an astounding number of people - off memory as I'm on my phone, something like 70% of their economy had been syndicalized. Somehow they convinced a shitload of the population to think deeply about their engagement in society and politics and become active, daily, if not hourly, participants in that process. This fascinates me and I want to try this again. It of course involves sucking it up and talking to Trump supporters which I find very difficult because they say some very silly things, but regardless, if an alternative power structure isn't injected into the mix, the game of good-convincers playing hackey sack with the zeitgeist to maintain power will never end.
- selfmodruntime 2y agoStop calling working people without a college education stupid and stop alienating men. "Non-educated" people work just as hard or harder than the rest of us. I've been to college and the only thing it "educated" me in is Computer Science, which I majored in. I'm not in any way better as a human being than my friends working in construction. Quite the contrary, their job is far more important to society than mine. If I stopped my niche research tomorrow, no one would really care. If handymen, farmers, or truckers stopped working, there would be riots. Also, the DNC should really stop forcing unwanted candidates down people's throats. It doesn't work, even when you spam social platforms with your narrative.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoWhat you've written is exactly what happened in the UK during the Brexit referendum. The lessons still haven't been learned.
- amarcheschi 2y agoAs in, they were right calling people bigots if they wanted to get out of the eu? That definitely didn't improve uk, I've even heard about people feeling "betrayed" by the now valid tariffs that damaged their UK business
- mytailorisrich 2y agoWorking class people who, especially, wanted to control immigration were called bigots, uneducated, stupid, racist, etc and were ignored. Result is that they voted for Brexit. No, that didn't change anything because this was ignored by the establishment (both Labour and Conservatives) and that is still festering with the resulting rise of the Reform UK party (of Nigel Farage who's celebrating with Trump in Mar-a-Lago right now).
- imp0cat 2y agoHere's a better analysis of the Brexit thing which was posted here yesterday. It was mostly decided by the fact that the pro-Brexit people had better marketing campaign. https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/q-and-a https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/q-and-a
- skhunted 2y agoObama is the only 2 term President to have gotten a majority of the vote both times since Ronald Reagan. Our system had been broken in a sense (depending on your perspective). We’ve had candidates get a plurality and some a majority of the vote who did not get elected. I think the electoral system needs to be abandoned. The U.S. is far more right wing than people thought. That Trump got a majority of the vote is a huge win for him. No one can claim his win is because of a backward electoral system and not because he is popular. This is huge. Democrats will be dead for 2 years minimum. Trump will be able to enact whatever legislation he wants to. He is the President we deserve. The DNC needs to be abolished. Democrats had the opportunity to reform the system. It’s been over 100 years since the number of Representatives has been updated. They could have imposed election reform. They could have gotten rid of archaic Senate rules like filibuster.
- arp242 2y ago> Democrats had the opportunity to reform the system. It’s been over 100 years since the number of Representatives has been updated. They could have imposed election reform. They could have gotten rid of archaic Senate rules like filibuster. When? How? Any change like that in the last few decades would be very hard, and probably before that as well. I don't disagree with you, I've argued "fixing the system should be #1 priority" for years, but even if the Democratic party wanted to, I don't see how they could have done so.
- skhunted 2y agoWhen Obama was President his first two years Democrats had clear majorities of both houses. But that fool was obsessed with “bipartisanship”. He acted as if the political norms of the 70s had not changed. Also, they haven’t even tried to fight for the things I mentioned.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y agoIn Obama's first term, the parties were not nearly as ideologically sorted as they were today. There was a Democratic majority of 257 in the House, yes, but 54 of those were members of the explicitly conservative Blue Dog Coalition. They wouldn't have agreed to vote for sweeping partisan reforms.
- shultays 2y agoDon't kill squirrels just before election
- loktarogar 2y agoThe vice-president doesn't order squirrel murders.
- pabs3 2y agoFor those who haven't heard of this: https://checkyourfact.com/2024/11/04/fact-check-did-trump-release-a-video-on-the-biden-administration-killing-peanut-the-squirrel/ https://checkyourfact.com/2024/11/04/fact-check-did-trump-re...
- sethammons 2y agoBut it is a shiny example of what most sane people call Too Much Government. People love to hear Trump saying he will drain the swamp.
- markus_zhang 2y agoI think calling this too much government inaccurate. IMO it is government not doing enough what it should do, and putting its hands into private issues too much. So cutting government regulation won't work.
- sethammons 2y agoThis is a case of a home raid and tossing the house that resulted in the killing of a pet. If you don't think that is too much government power and abuse, I don't understand your world view. In my ideal world, a govt. rep would reach out or knock, even with a warrant, to do an animal wellness check and remove the animal in case of abuse and to cite the owner and specify the correct forms needed to keep the squirrel.
- mrguyorama 2y agoThe squirrel died because it bit a cop and cops LOVE killing pets. Objectively they kill a lot of pets.
- surfingdino 2y agoIn this election, the Democrats were unable to offer the majority of voters the past they fondly remember or the future they can look forward to. It's that simple.
- prawn 2y agoSuccinct. Haven't seen a relevant explanation phrased like that.
- Modified3019 2y agoThe lesson is that Reddit is not real life, and that calling half the country racist sexist fascist inbred stupid genocidal monsters turns out to not be a winning strategy. Whether democrats finally learn that lesson is another thing. I am not optimistic on that.
- chimprich 2y ago> calling half the country racist sexist fascist inbred stupid genocidal monsters The Democratic campaign did no such thing. Can you point to any examples? As far as I can see they went to great lengths to avoid saying anything like that. As far as I can tell there was far more venom from the Republicans. Maybe the lesson is that a winning strategy is to be more insulting.
- mvdtnz 2y agoDid you miss biden calling all trump supporters "garbage"?
- chimprich 2y agoIt was a single remark by the outgoing president who wasn't standing for election, and something he quickly rowed back on. It was clearly something he didn't intend to say, but at some point in an election campaign someone is going to misspeak. Anyway, you're moving the goalposts. The allegation was "calling half the country racist sexist fascist inbred stupid genocidal monsters".
- Spooky23 2y agoHispanic and black voters won’t turn out to vote for a woman, regardless of race. Next time, run a 6’2” white guy with good hair.
- gizzlon 2y agoThere might not be a next time shrugs
- prepend 2y agoGavin Newsom tried.
- ekam 2y agoThey turned out for Obama so it’s definitely not a white thing, as much as people wish it was
- FergusArgyll 2y agoThis is the most racist comment that hasn't been flagged that I've ever seen on HN. Hispanics and Blacks are evil I guess?
- Spooky23 2y agoNo, as a group the just didn’t turn out to vote. The message being delivered didn’t compensate for bias. And many who did are in bro camp voting for Trump. Turnout matters. This was a must win and they bet wrong. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.