28 ms·

Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

823 points by mpweiher 2y ago

server_man3000 2y ago
Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Additionally, there are so many apps that resell the ticket as some white label system, so it was very confusing to purchase (you cannot buy them at the machines). The price hike is the wrong direction here if we are reducing that much time on the road. Kudos though for the great rail systems. The USA has a lot to learn here and it’s baffling how terrible it is here. I doubt I’d ever need a car in Germany given the rail system was much more convenient. In the USA I spend 10-15 mins trying to park any time I go anywhere
- luto 2y ago
  It started with 9€, is 49€ now, and will be 58€ starting 2025. You can buy for a single month when booking through the right company. "mo.pal" is a good one, for example. However, I agree that it is a bit predatory.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  Germany is smaller than California. The United States is very, very large place, mostly unpopulated. It’s hard to apply whatever Germany, a small, densely populated country does to the US, which is largely empty land.
  - waveBidder 2y ago
    Look, nobody is talking about Nebraska. the density of the east coast is easily high enough to support high speed high quality rail.
    - euroderf 2y ago
      That's why they call it "flyover country". Not "railover country".
  - Larrikin 2y ago
    Why do we have to pretend that routes between Montana and South Dakota have to come up when discussing ways of improving rail usage in the US? We could treat routes between Chicago, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis like Germany. We could treat high speed rail in California or the Northeast like Japan. Choosing to live in an extremely rural area shouldn't just be a "well it doesn't help" me trump card to defeat things that will help most of the population.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Exactly. Always somebody trots out invalid arguments about size and population density. There are smaller states in the USA that are about as dense as Germany, like Maryland and Connecticut. So, why don't those states have great state-wide public transit systems?
    - adamc 2y ago
      The politics at the national level are likely to be that states not helped by this vote against it.
      - twodave 2y ago
        Yep, federal income tax is a big reason. For states to fund this on their own requires additional taxation. Some places like FL don’t even have a state income tax, so they are stuck trying to get tourists to fund transportation projects somehow or increasing sales taxes or higher tolls. And of course higher tolls have the unfortunate side effect of reducing demand for the thing to begin with.
      - Larrikin 2y ago
        Maybe we should work on making one vote to be equal in the nation.
        kortilla 2y ago
        This is a boring trope. Whether it’s a group of United States or a single State is a debate as old as the country. You’re going to need really compelling reasons for states to give up their representation and participate in the state vote required to amend the constitution to remove their rights.
  - shantara 2y ago
    And how many people regularly commute across the United States? The absolute majority of the journeys people make regularly is still quite short, so why not start by optimizing for them? Then continue with building high speed intercity connections between the urban areas with <500 km distance to create valuable alternatives to being stuck in the highway traffic and dealing with the airport security nonsense. Why do you always think that you need to reinvent a tried and true solutions that have been proven to work across the world?
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Also even if you're worried about going cross-country, that requires what, two fast lines between the coasts to get good routes? So even though those areas don't have many people per square mile, passing through would need an extremely small amount of track per square mile.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    1. CA is the 3rd largest state in the USA. Do any of the 47 smaller states have something like this? 2. As the unpopulated bits necessarily don't have many people or things to do in them, the cost of subsidising a public transit ticket in those places is necessarily small.
- oersted 2y ago
  I don't have the details, but every single time I have heard the mention of Deutsche Bahn in the last few years it has been accompanied by comments of how broken it has become, with constant delays and cancellations, to the point where for many people it is no longer a viable option for commute or for anything where you cannot risk to be up to several hours late. I guess it's all relative. If you come to rely on an excellent and omnipresent rail service for many years as a society, the impacts are quite big when it stops working well. If the service itself is built assuming reliability, where transferring between trains is common, then issues can get substantially amplified if that choreography gets somewhat disrupted.
  - dustyventure 2y ago
    It was broken long before the offer though so the reduction in driving being moderate probably reflects fewer shifts in daily commute and mostly more leisure usage.
  - sadcherry 2y ago
    There is a big reporting bias though. You won't see in the news "of the 40,000 railway connections today, most were on time". You only read about some train having had an AC issue or the like. I have family in Germany and they never go by train but tell me regularly about how bad the train has become. They have literally not been in one for 15+ years. But they watch the news every day.
    - currymj 2y ago
      among intercity trains run by Deutsche Bahn, the on-time rate hovers around 2/3. it's technically true that "most were on time", but one third being late is really terrible, especially since you often need to make a tight connection. even if your family has no justifiable basis for believing what they do about DB, they happen to be correct by luck. https://ibir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/combined-management-report/product-quality-and-digitalization/the-customer-is-at-the-center-of-our-actions/punctuality/ https://ibir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/combined-management-re...
      - 2y ago
- lispm 2y ago
  > Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? That was a time limited earlier ticket. "The tickets were valid for June, July, or August 2022. The offer aimed at reducing energy use amid the 2021–2022 global energy crisis." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket It influenced the idea to come up with a permanent ticket: the "Deutschlandticket". It started 1. Mai 2023. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandticket The Deutschlandticket costs max 49 Euros (next year it will cost 58€ per month) and is valid for one month for mostly all local&regional public transport systems (plus a few selected non-regional trains) in the whole of Germany. The subscription will renew automatically. Companies often support employees by paying some of the costs. Then it typically costs 34.30 € per month. From next year on, employees pay 40,60 € per month max. Here in my home city already 94% of the 213000 pupils use the Deutschlandticket for 0 € per month. Every pupil has free access to all of the country's local&regional public transport system... I find that kind of mind-blowing. I have the ticket in my iPhone's wallet and thus also in the Apple Watch wallet. Additionally I need an ID card. Which at some point in time will also come to the smartphone. https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/new-mobile-phone-app-will-allow-digital-id-cards-germany https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/new-mob...
  - consp 2y ago
    > Every pupil has free access to all of the country's local&regional public transport system... I find that kind of mind-blowing. We've had this since the 1990s for higher education students. One of the known effects is that students who got it, used the public transport systems more often after wards as they were more familiar with it. I would not be surprised if Germany has a simmilar effect. The problem with these effect is they far outgrow the attention span of polititians as they take years to come to full force.
    - sva_ 2y ago
      It was only valid for the state in which the university is, and not all universities offered it. Most students now get the nationwide ticket for effectively about 30€/month.
- weinzierl 2y ago
  "I LOVE the German transit system" I have some experience with the public transport systems in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and Belgium. In my opinion Germany's is the worst. Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. The tariffs (apart from the Deutschlandticket) are overly complicated and suffer heavily under the common balkanization. The DB Navigator is so terrible that I try to book the German leg of my international travels from one of the other countries apps whenever possible. For a counter example look at the French SNCF Connect app. It is not perfect but it is a pretty workable solution.
  - lispm 2y ago
    > Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now. > The DB Navigator is so terrible It's not terrible. I managed to book all my train travels just fine with it, also using a business bahncard which gives me a 50% discount on all trains.
    - eptcyka 2y ago
      I couldn't pay for my ubahn with a credit card on the bahn, and the app required me to use some kind of a paypal derivative. I did not pay. Regardless of whether it is digitized or not, regional trains suck. To pay on the train, I think I was forced to use cash. Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. Or was it snail mail? I didn't attempt it, I just saw that my train was delayed for hours with no explanation for what can I do about it, realized I'm missing my connection and then booked a plane ticket and got home faster than if I had traveled by rail without any delays. 10/10, will fly whenever possible from now on.
      - lispm 2y ago
        Pay before. That's how the transport systems generally work in Germany. In many trains you need to have a ticket BEFORE entering the train and also BEFORE entering the platform in the train station. > Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. I can do that in the DB app.
- jonp888 2y ago
  > Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? The €9 ticket was a 3 month temporary offer, which was not originally intended to continue permanently at all. > I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. The ticket is subsidised by the German government(beyond the amount that all rail infrastructure and most services are subsidised) for the purpose what is covered in the article - encouraging permanent modal shift of regular travellers(primarily commuters) from road to rail. If you're a tourist, it's not meant for you. Sorry.
  - sadcherry 2y ago
    Airtravel is also subsidised by the German tax payer. Much more than the 49 EUR ticket. No matter if you are a tourist or not. (Arguably mostly for tourists actually.)
    - kristianp 2y ago
      What's the method of subsidy there? Contributing to Airbus shares?
      - echoangle 2y ago
        Commercial aviation fuel is tax exempt in the EU, I would already count that as a subsidy (yes, I count not taxing something that's normally taxed as a subsidy, even if it isn't done by directly paying out money).
      - Qwertious 2y ago
        Subsidising airports and fuel, presumably.
    - jacooper 2y ago
      How is it subsidized while a local flight costs more than an international one? The idea is to push people to use the train, but a train isn't an alternative if it takes 9 hours compared to the 2 hour flight.
- juliangmp 2y ago
  >I LOVE the German transit system What? How? I have the ticket and despite that I never use any regional train because they're generally awful. (Local busses and trams on the other hand work pretty well)
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    Regional trains are really okay compared to long-distance trains. These are so bad that it's unlikely that you reach your destination on time now.
- consumerx 2y ago
  True, significant only because offered for 9 EUR initially.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Not only — when I visit friends in the UK, I've had single rail tickets cost more than the increased next years' cost of a monthly nationwide ticket here in Germany.
- hilux 2y ago
  I'm a big fan of public transit, but it's not entirely "baffling" why the US lags European countries (and Japan) - the US is a MUCH larger country.
  - server_man3000 2y ago
    There’s a happy medium somewhere though and the US doesn’t meet it at all. I can’t even take a bus from my neighborhood in a California city to the grocery store in a timely manner and it’s often cancelled
    - hilux 2y ago
      Oh, I know - I live in Oakland. I think even here the population density is lower than in European cities. (It's definitely lower than in Asian mega-cities.) But yes, I do wish California did better. People are used to bad transit, and have never visited Tokyo or even NYC, so expectations are low.
  - reducesuffering 2y ago
    But the DC to Boston line isn't
  - lispm 2y ago
    > the US is a MUCH larger country with much of the population in a few denser areas, where public transport would make a lot of sense.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    The EU is only about half the land area of the USA; Germany is roughly equivalent of the fourth largest US state, Montana, and only CA, TX, and AK are bigger. Do any states have something equivalent to this?
    - hilux 2y ago
      And Germany has a population of 83 million. Montana has a population of 1.1 million. I don't get your point.
- onli 2y ago
  > If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Just in case this is helpful to someone, you can buy the ticket from one of those different transport organizations you mentioned and avoid that time limit to cancel. The one to use for that is https://www.mopla.solutions/ https://www.mopla.solutions/, it's a simple app (alternatively web site) that worked really well for me (no affiliation).
- emaro 2y ago
  Surprised how positive you're writivg about the German public transport. The Deutsche Bahn doesn't have a good reputation in central Europe. I guess my frame of reference isn't average, given I live in Switzerland. Edit: the 49-euro ticket is great though!
  - ben_w 2y ago
    As a UK citizen living in Berlin, I assure you that for all the cancellations and repair works, there's many places which look up to the German system. (I've also been to the USA, and (IMO) Amtrak makes the UK look good).
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      The UK is so expensive though. I thought I was looking at airplane fares.
      - JackMorgan 2y ago
        I recently needed two tickets from NYC to LA, and was astonished to find air tickets for $80 and rail tickets for $2200. It's so unbelievably expensive (not counting that the flight was a few hours and the train was 56 hours). Very disappointing! How is it so expensive?!
        guenthert 2y ago
        Competition, I suppose. Still, that seems extreme. A few years (might have been eight) back, I traveled Amtrak's Zephyr from Chicago to California. The roomette for two (coach would have been cheaper) was some $450, about the same as 2nd class air fare for one then. But yes, the train isn't in a particular hurry, expected travel time is some 50h, but 1.5h in, it was already 20m late for no apparent reason. Most passengers were tourist, but I also talked to a fellow who was going to California to pick up a used car for his daughter. I like the idea of long distance train traveling, as one can get off and back on later (check the fine print of your ticket though). Apparently, that's not customary however and earned me an interview by a TSA agent (a very polite fellow, odd as it may sound) who approached me (with a local Sheriff in tow) at a scheduled stop.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
  > is a bit predatory what bugs me the most is that i can only book it for a specific calendar month. that is _so_ stupid ...
- serial_dev 2y ago
  > I doubt I’d ever need a car in Germany given the rail system was much more convenient Sure, if you live in a larger city and you never leave… I lived in Munich for years and never needed a car, just comfortable shoes, a bike and occasionally a transport ticket. Try to get to a smaller town or village, you are lucky if you only spend twice as much time getting there as with a car. The trains get randomly cancelled, delay is basically guaranteed, the workers go on strikes relatively frequently, so you can never rely on trains working for anything remotely important.
- sva_ 2y ago
  > You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Pro tip: some websites offer to start the subscription later in the month and you only pay for those days. So if, for example, you were to attend a certain hacker conference in Hamburg at the end of December, you could buy the ticket for the last 5 days of the month for 49/31*5 euro. Just have to cancel before 10th of December so that it doesn't renew. ("HVV Switch" App)
- happyraul 2y ago
  Cancellation terms vary by vendor. With some better ones, you can cancel 24 hours before the end of the month to avoid being billed for the next month.
- luplex 2y ago
  Yep, it's not really meant for tourists. They really want everyone to stay in the subscription model, because it's heavily subsidized, so they need to hit a high enough LTV anyways.
- dgellow 2y ago
  It’s not really made for tourists from outside the country, you already have special tickets for people who visit for a short time. It’s for the local population. The price hike is from 49€/month to 58€/month next year. It’s the opposite of predatory IMHO, you have it on your mobile app in a few tap and can cancel easily
- carrja99 2y ago
  As a tourist, the cost was well worth it. Used buses and rail to get everywhere, booked one DB train from Berlin to Bamberg but otherwise travelled all over Germany during my time there. Just had to remember to cancel.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  > Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? No, you could never use it on IC or ICEs
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  All of these tickets are only for local/regional trains, not the faster/long-distance trains. You can get from one end of the country to another by changing trains a few time, but e.g. getting from Munich to Berlin would be 6h (direct) with fast trains and 10+ h (changing 3 times) with the regional ones. The subscription model is intentional - this isn't meant to help tourists or to be bought when you need it, it's meant to make sure people have already pre-paid the cost when making a decision whether to take a train or a car (by being cheap enough that people subscribe even if they don't use it all the time).
Roritharr 2y ago
As someone that avoids the german rail at all costs I applaud this move, the freer the roads and airports are for me, the better.
- chairmansteve 2y ago
  Exactly. I don't understand why most car owners are so opposed to public transport.
  - waveBidder 2y ago
    the same reason omnivores are sometimes highly critical of veg*ns: there's a moral claim going on, so their identity/ moral standing is threatened.
    - Aerroon 2y ago
      It's not a question of moral standing or identity but rather that public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do. Those things gaining too much popularity threatens the way you do things. We have examples of this happening, eg smoking. It has become unpopular enough that governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes or just making it entirely illegal for only a certain year cohort (literal age discrimination).
      - consteval 2y ago
        > would like to force you to live like they do Okay, so it's exactly a question of moral standing and identity.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - pkd 2y ago
        > public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do Is there a citation for this claim? > governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes Is it nonsensical? There is research[1][2] showing that flavoured tobacco is one of the primary factors used to attract younger users. We know that tobacco is bad, and also that flavoured tobacco increases its usage, so unless you are against public health policy measures themselves, it follows logically that flavoured tobacco should be covered by public health measures. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9007155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9007155/ [2] https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/6/709 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/6/709
pjmlp 2y ago
Except this only helped the folks living close to big train station hubs, across the country there are plenty of places where the car is the only viable option.
- orra 2y ago
  Well, no, it's primarily about regional travel, so it clearly helps folks near to smaller stations. Plus: your point, caller? Investing in roads only helps folks with cars. There are plenty of people for whom public transport is the only option.
  - b59831 2y ago
    [dead]
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    1h car, 3h public transport, that is the point.
- Glawen 2y ago
  Germany is a dense country with a developed rail network, you are never far from a train station. Bear in mind that this includes also city transportation, which makes it a great deal. My gripe with the ticket is that traveling with bikes in regional train became a gamble, you never know if you can get in as there is so many people inside already (and even more when the previous train got cancelled, which happens a lot...)
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Yeah, but doesn't make the Bahn more punctual, or reduce those comute times from 3h down to the 1h that is possible by car, not having to jump across four connections, with related delays and dropped connections.
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      The 49 Euro ticket is about local transportation, when you are talking about 3h you are talking about intercity transportation not covered by this ticket. Intercity travel has lots of punctuality problems but many of the local train operations and S-Bahn are often much superior. At least in places where I have been, like Karlsruhe, Berlin, Hamburg the local transport has been very good. Not everything in live is about long distance communing. > 3h down to the 1h That completely depends on the details of your route and ignores lots of possible aspects. As a universal statement its just outright false.
zelphirkalt 2y ago
Well, of course, if we didn't have traffic ministers again and again, who do everything they can to make rail less attractive and road more attractive, then we could probably have a great system. But automobile lobby is so strong, they buy all the politicians in that role, probably even before they land in that role, so I guess normal people will have to keep suffering, so that those politicians can have a life of luxury. Thank you.
- gacklecackle 2y ago
  Automobile lobby? That's BS. The German rail system has been cost-saved to death, it now barely handles the increased passenger volume as a result of the D-Ticket. Overcrowded trains, even more delays and train cancellations (b/c of insufficient staff coverage, malfunctioning doors, etc.) even with S-Bahn trains are getting out of hand. "Transitwende" my ass! Same with the "Energiewende". How i envy the Dutch and Belgian transport situation!
  - Fanmade 2y ago
    I don't get why you would write your first two sentences. It is very obvious how the automobile lobby has a direct influence here. Here is an excellent documentary (in German) that analyzes the issues with the DB. https://youtu.be/-dmtNToFwuI?si=3ydA_QOjzOvTke2_&t=480 https://youtu.be/-dmtNToFwuI?si=3ydA_QOjzOvTke2_&t=480 At the linked time stamp, they mention that every minister of transport in the very influential period from 2009-2021 came from Bavaria, with heavy influence from companies like Audi, MAN, and BMW.
  - hobofan 2y ago
    > The German rail system has been cost-saved to death Yes, because the the traffic ministers allocate the spending of their resort to the Autobahn instead of the Deutsche Bahn.
- caseyy 2y ago
  Quite many "normal people" also enjoy the freedom of the automobile. It has contributed significantly to the culture of autonomy, unity on large scales (beyond one's local town), and cosmopolitanism. Online, it is acceptable to be cynical about cars, but in the real world, among common people, this mindset is not that prevalent. Even in European countries lauded for great public transport, people own and enjoy cars. Of course, there are benefits to public transport that the car cannot offer, such as efficiency at scale. But it's not so black-and-white. There are also benefits to car ownership that public transport cannot offer, such as independence. One might say that Uber, car sharing companies, and shopping online are bridging the independence gap. To an extent, this is true. But not always. Particularly, not when the non-car-ownership option is much more expensive, and not when people’s needs demand a higher level of independence. My point: much of this has more nuance than is opined online. Do not presume when speaking for “normal people”.
petesergeant 2y ago
I really really would like to see Labour in the UK to use their sizeable majority + Parliamentary sovereignty to upgrade the UK’s infrastructure, including more train subsidies, but they seem very cautious and also terrified of raising taxes. Such a waste that the UK is one of the few places where Parliament could just ram shit through and yet building anything in the UK is so hampered by self-imposed red tape.
- chgs 2y ago
  15 years of all major parties supporting hs2 and it couldn’t be rammed through Want to improve things for people in the UK, ram through massive new housing akin to the newtowns of 50 years ago.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    HS2 was an ongoing project, it was threw. It was simply cancled by a fucking asshat person who tried to appeal to the far right in a series of stunts to save his sorry ass. New housing has to be built along transportation corridors. If you want to efficiently build housing, you have to extend transportation infrastructure into areas and then grow towns around that. This isn't actually hard and has been done for 100 years but somehow in modern day many countries are to stupid to understand this.
    - chgs 2y ago
      HS2 spent years and billions trying to keep the moaners in the chilterns happy. The number of tunnels is insane. The M40 didn’t have this problem. Yes transportation goes without saying. Places like Telford and Milton Keynes and the likes. There are tons of places on the WCML that could have MK style communities.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > through massive new housing akin to the newtowns of 50 years ago New towns will just be full of commuters and have no life in them. We need to build high rises in cities, and give people living in apartments real rights - the leasehold system is feudalism. And give Manchester and Birmingham real metro/tube systems!
jdietrich 2y ago
Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externalities, but I don't know how to price any of them. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/ghg-abatement-costs-for-selected-measures-of-the-sustainable-recovery-plan https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/ghg-abatement...
- szundi 2y ago
  Secret plan of car driving politicians to decrease the traffic for themselves
- Arn_Thor 2y ago
  When you say “carbon abatement” do you mean carbon credits/cleanup or other ways of emitting less of it in the first place?
- V__ 2y ago
  > already substantial subsidies for the rail industry Though to be fair, there are also substantial subsidies for the whole road network.
  - theendisney4 2y ago
    Roads are much more efficient with fewer cars.
    - kachapopopow 2y ago
      The weather would like to have a word with you.
    - bmoxb 2y ago
      By what metric?
k__ 2y ago
It's pretty awesome, but it gets more expensive all the time. First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. People loved it, and the government talked about doing a permanent 29€ ticket. But now we pay 49€ and it's already planned to become 59€. Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore.
- lispm 2y ago
  > Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Depends. In my city "poor" people pay less. Just 19 € per month. Pupils don't pay at all. Students pay 29.40 €.
- kingkongjaffa 2y ago
  It's still super affordable for the average worker using these tickets to commute.
- epolanski 2y ago
  It's meant to be an alternative to car drivers which are still gonna save over driving even with multiple hikes ahead.
- Aachen 2y ago
  Remember that it cost a small rent to get this subscription until the 9€ experiment. Flat fee national transport, I don't remember the exact price but it's multiple hundreds a month in both the Netherlands (NS altijd/trein vrij) and Germany (Bahnkarte 100). Even my local subscription to go ~10km between two cities in Germany (NRW) cost 90€ a month until that experiment A nationwide subscription for 60 euros is a steal, even when the long distance trains are excluded
  - dunefox 2y ago
    Except for people who simply don't have 60€ a month easily, so they're left out. Also, it will absolutely not stay at 60€, it will become more expensive each year until the local tickets are cheaper again - defeating the whole purpose (if it won't be reverted outright after the next election, which the conservatives will win).
internetter 2y ago
I made an argument for making my local public transportation free: https://boehs.org/node/free-the-t https://boehs.org/node/free-the-t Some of the arguments is based on similar German research, which is cited.
hit8run 2y ago
[flagged]
theendisney4 2y ago
The real puzzle imho is to get people to use public transport for the mostly empty route and time combinations. There are many of those for different reasons. Trains are so heavy it doesnt really cost or save anything if there are people inside or not. Its like restaurants throwing away food.
- owisd 2y ago
  The UK offers aggressive discounts for advance purchasing tickets on long distance routes at quiet times, which works well.
  - switch007 2y ago
    Which are used to justify expensive non-Advance tickets. £80 if I have the audacity to go to greater London today without having planned ahead (3 hour journey + tube). And the same cost coming back - off peak of course. £160! Vs £55 in petrol Travel at quieter times to benefit from cheaper off peak tickets they used to say. Hah.
    - timeinput 2y ago
      And with strikes, weather related closures, maintenance closures, etc I end up having to rebook my ticket at the last minute. I'd say half of the advanced purchased journeys end up costing me more than just booking the train the day of.
      - switch007 2y ago
        Yes! Now we are getting on to the true cost of advanced tickets. Fines for making mistakes, rebooking fees, rebooking and having to pay a higher fare, lost tickets because sometimes it's just easier to book a new ticket, losing out when unwell etc... I bet they make a tidy sum from unused advance tickets (Great Britain specific): Although worth noting when it's out of your control the railway does have to offer you options. You don't have 100% of the liability. And if your train is cancelled you're entitled to take the one before/after for example or get a refund Though they do make this difficult these days
overflyer 2y ago
Which I as a German simply fail to fathom. The quality of our Deutsche Bahn is so bad I would never drive by train. The worst thing is that they are incapable to have their trains be on time. Whenever you travel there is an extremely high chance you will not arrive at your destination in time.
- Aachen 2y ago
  Not every trip is time sensitive, most trains do run on time, and not all trains are operated by your nemesis. If you still refuse to "ever" take a train anywhere, that's on you rather than the system
- patall 2y ago
  Because it is a regional problem and some areas work mostly fine. I also fail to fanthom why people drive in rush hour, queuing every day for hours. Yet people do that. And people love to complain, especially those that only take trains on public holidays. But hey, here in Sweden the trains are worse than in Germany, but people complain far less and trains are full anyways.
- locallost 2y ago
  It's still more punctual than going by car. I can't remember any long distance car trip where I wasn't stuck in traffic and my trip was much longer than predicted by the navigation system.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  The regional trains (which the ticket applies to) are much better than the long-distance trains: https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476# https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen...
hankchinaski 2y ago
Would be interesting to see if the subsidy is covered by additional economic activity to cover the shortfall. If not it won’t last long, money doesn’t grow on trees
- moffkalast 2y ago
  On the other hand the Bundeswehr burns through 50 billion a year to do fuck all, so apparently it does indeed grow on trees.
  - contravariant 2y ago
    Military spending is a bit of an odd one. It's basically expensive by design and ideally doesn't have any real effect. It's not far off from a proof-of-work system. Especially given how there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawed such that the only options remaining are costly in people, money and goods.
    - jenadine 2y ago
      > there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawe I'm curious. What are these options?
      - moffkalast 2y ago
        Nukes, I think they mean nukes. Though "cheaper" is kind of debatable there, a fleet of SSBNs isn't cheap by any measure.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  It does when maintaining roads, apparently.
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  Someone in the comments mentioned this costs 3B per year when in comparison Germany spends 20B per year on Oil/Gas subsidies/tax benefits. Arguably if more people are using rail it can become palatable to shift that money away from the tax benefits and subsidies for Oil which (equally) artificially lower fuel prices from real market prices (and which people seem to have no problem with).
exabrial 2y ago
I have to admit the ‘all access’ ticket system was pretty awesome when I visited. Note that this did not include trains going into Austria (even if you road them only in Germany). Nearly every city is joined by rail and it’s incredible. Sadly in the US Midwest we just don’t have there population density to do this sort of thing.
ggernov 2y ago
The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.
- tantivy 2y ago
  Hundreds of thousands of people use public transit daily in America. Long headways, poor coverage, and lackluster maintenance budgets are a much more important problem than what you're describing.
  - jahnu 2y ago
    I take your point but the reality is millions use it daily. Also where it is better more use it. Which is the important point lost to many.
- partiallypro 2y ago
  I think this is one reason why it is rarely expanded, people associate the stops as a way for criminals to get around; but I think usage is not great largely because it hasn't expanded...it's a self-feeding cycle.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  > The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. That's a lie told by people who sell fear as a product to people who always want new reasons to live in fear.
  - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
    Remember folks, if someone says they don't want to ride transit with a hobo smoking meth, they're lying and they're a bad person. Even if they've previously experienced it firsthand.
    - 2y ago
jmyeet 2y ago
This last week we would've probably all seen the photos of the gridlock on I-75 as Tampa Bay residents fled Hurricane Milton. If you followed the story you know it eventually became almost impossible to evacuate. We should also know how much more efficient buses are on roads at moving people than individual cars are. You can fit ~60 people on a bus that takes up the space of ~2 cars. What should happen in these emergencies is there should be dedicated bus lanes and dedicates buses to evacuate people. But beyond that, what we should learn from this is that lack of public transit (intracity and intercity) is a public safety issue. Cars simply aren't an efficient use of resources. You can see from the comments here people will talk about "subsidies" for rail. Why does rail need to turn a profit? Roads don't. The Post Office doesn't. The Fire Department doesn't. Yet for some reason we hold public transport infrastructure to a higher standard. Americans, in particular, love their cars. And there has been a powerful lobbying operation to associate rail with tax increases. This is so short-sighted because nobody is confiscating your car. Fewer people on the roads will improve your driving experience and travel times. We see in the UK that it's cheaper to fly to Spain than to take intercity train journeys. As far as I'm concerned, citywide rail (eg the Tube in London, the NYC Subway) should be free and intercity rail should have a nominal cost that is cheaper than driving.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Kind of a tidbit with those photos but I was expecting to see congestion and was monitoring google maps traffic layers for the central florida area two days and a day before milton (I forgot to check on the actual day it hit) and the highways were surprisingly bright green with a little tiny backup where the florida turnpike interchanges with the interstate. I guess if you wait till the last minute no matter what method you use to evacuate its going to get ugly.
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  In some ways, it's all kind of moot, since the current usage of cars, trucks, planes is all unsustainable on short timescales (decades). Bus and rail is likely to be unsustainable for much longer (centuries ?).
lagrange77 2y ago
Am i a communist when i prefer a government to operate and provide basic services like the public transport system, the postal system, the telecommunication/internet service or prisons either paid by taxes or by fees, that don't generate profit beyond paying the costs, instead of using taxes to rescue bankrupt banks and companies? EDIT: Oh and hospitals!
- layer8 2y ago
  No. That's not even socialist.
- manquer 2y ago
  > Am i a communist Even if you were, is that really a bad thing? Why do we demonize communism (and socialism ) so much ? Poor implementation in Soviet Union or in PRC that is only seen through the color of propaganda with the inherent cultural and ideological biases is hardly a good basis for judging a movement that was a response to centuries of extreme worker exploitation in direct result industrialization and raise of machines. Are there really bad ideas in socialism ? yes of course, there are bad ideas in late stage capitalism or in any free market system or any system. We learn and try to take to best from all economic systems not demonize any of them.
  - lagrange77 2y ago
    > Even if you were, is that really a bad thing? I noticed, that it sounded like that after i submitted the comment. Was not intended. > Are there really bad ideas in socialism ? yes of course, there are bad ideas in late stage capitalism or in any free market system or any system. I totally agree.
- _19qg 2y ago
  Otto von Bismarck introduced much of the social safety net in Germany, incl. health insurance (in 1883). He definitely was not a communist. He once called it "practical christianity" ("praktisches Christentum").
  - 2y ago
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WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
How many people used the tracking app for how long? How were they chosen? The study would be flawed if the group is not chosen to represent correctly the entire population. E.g., if they called for volunteers using the app, mostly people will apply that are engaged in climate change mitigation anyway and / or are in the target market for the 49 Euro ticket.
- pentacent_hq 2y ago
  The data are based on cellphone tower data and app tracking data which, according to them [1] "is based on millions of app tracking movement patterns […] [and was shown by] Koch et al (2023) to be representative for the population of car-owners" [1] https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/
guelermus 2y ago
It was one of the most intelligent ( and rare) decision the government took. Off course, there are parties loosing money like car manufacturers and oil producers.
- isodev 2y ago
  That's a double win in my book.
- Fanmade 2y ago
  I agree. I still have to rely on my car for basically everything because the same government also fucked up the rail system so severely that it barely works in my region. When I moved from a small village to the city, I sold my car and wanted to use public transportation for everything. I'm not fond of driving, especially in cities, so this looked like a no-brainer. I had my first bad experiences quickly when I learned that public transportation wasn't anywhere as reliable as I previously thought. I had to choose between going to work 45 minutes earlier (of course, unpaid and without the possibility of leaving earlier) or risking being too late half the time. I had to travel further for my next job, but I thought it would be better because it was another connection. I was wrong. It was usually better in the mornings, but my way home usually took between 1,5 and 3 hours instead of the planned 45 minutes. The next job I chose only because there, at least, I could take the S-Bahn instead of the Deutsche Bahn Trains, and it was a direct connection, which was way more reliable. But it was very loud, very smelly, cold in winter, and very hot in summer (I remember having a working AC twice in the four years that I traveled that line), and there were (not always empty) beer bottles rolling around the floor almost all the time. I always paid for the entire year in advance, so the 90-minute daily drive did cost a little more than 220 Euros monthly. Otherwise, it would have been even more expensive. So, the current ticket would have improved that, at least financially. Now, I barely take the train anymore. I broke my ankle so badly in my youth that the doctors told me that they had to completely cut it open from both sides to see if they could improve it in any way. They also said that there was a strong possibility that I would wake up with a fused ankle after the operation. They recommended I only do that when the pain becomes unbearable, which I am now waiting for. So, I am permanently in pain, and walking is terrible for me. Still, when I have to go to the nearby city center, I prefer walking for 45 minutes instead of taking the 10-minute trip by train. That is what relying on German public transportation for more than ten years did to me. I tried that train connection multiple times before and stopped after it took me over an hour twice (after about five trips total). Disclaimer: It is not that bad everywhere in Germany. That's why I wrote "in my region" in the beginning. Within Berlin, for example, I had good experiences with public transportation. Well, at least regarding its availability. There were still junkies in there. And homeless people who smelled like they were living on that train for at least a few weeks. But well, that's another topic.
nnurmanov 2y ago
Is it a good practice when you give out blanket subsidies? Does targeted subsidies work better and are cost effective? I am researching this topic applied to taxation field.
- mondaymusings 2y ago
  Targeted subsidies entail explicit extra administrative costs and implicit costs (or benefit omissions) when some eligibles do not receive the subsidy due to e.g. paperwork friction. The alternative is universal benefits + taxes. See https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2022/11/11/universal-benefits-cost-less-than-means-tested-benefits/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2022/11/11/universal-be...
ganesh7 2y ago
I doubt that. Independent research paints a less clear picture. i would welcome it if the ticket were only free for workers, who suffer from one of the world's highest taxes and levies. It should not be available to welfare recipients.
kombine 2y ago
I just returned from a trip in Germany back to the UK and I find it frustrating that we don't have such a ticket in this country.
- alfanick 2y ago
  I moved some years ago from Dresden, Saxony, Germany to Rheintal, Switzerland - looking for some bigger mountains. In Dresden-area there was a nice 4-people day ticket for the whole area - <20EUR for 4 people total. Switzerland? Every guest spends at least 50CHF per person per day, wild.
luplex 2y ago
Even at 58€/month, it's great value for me, as my employer pays half the price and I live in a big city. If you live in a smaller town or in the countryside, then your problem really isn't the price of public transport, but the quality.
cbmuser 2y ago
> It statistically evaluated mobile phone and car movement data for Germany How do you obtain car movement data if not by tracking cell phones?
- tastroder 2y ago
  Their accompanying website [0] says mobile phone data comes from teralytix while car movement data is sourced through inrix [1], which appears to gather data through navigation apps of some sort (vague as can be expected but the linked paper [2] claims that). [0] https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ [1] https://inrix.com/ https://inrix.com/ [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4526796 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4526796
cdrini 2y ago
The 49 euro ticket is a phenomenally good deal. Normal transit tickets vary per city, but for example in Berlin it's 3.50 per trip. So if you take transit twice a day for 7 days, you already recoup the cost of the Deutschland ticket, which lasts the entire month! This makes it good even for tourists who stay for ~a week. At 59, it's 9 days of two trips to recoup the cost -- still very worth it for someone living in Germany, but a bit more borderline for a tourist. Compare with eg Toronto's monthly pass, which is $156. A single trip is $3.35, which comes out to 24 two-trip days to recoup the cost of the card. That's almost exactly the number of business days in a month. And that card's only for Toronto!
- dunefox 2y ago
  After the next elections, I fully expect it (and cannabis) to be reversed by the CDU, who will win without a doubt.
  - diffeomorphism 2y ago
    It is somewhat popular, so I doubt they will kill it outright. Rather I would guess they "reform" it: lots of variants, much higher price, beaurocratic hoops... and then when people stop using it, say "see, it wasn't so great after all". Same playbook in the UK, where people like the NHS but certain parties don't. Same playbook in the US, where "big government" has to be bad, so anything that does currently work well gets sabotaged.
    - consteval 2y ago
      A lot of times it's even worse than this, because what will happen is well-run public services will be sold off to the private sector. Who then runs away with extreme greed granted from the privilege of an inelastic market. So prices soar and quality plummets. Then, we can point and say "see? Look at how bad it is! It would only be worse if the government ran it!" Extra points if you're able to extract public funds to waste on such private endeavors. See: private schools in America (Yes, they get public funds!)
- grues-dinner 2y ago
pimeys 2y ago
My favorite part of this deal is how you can use the same ticket in every city in Germany. Before you had to learn which app to install and then go through the (usually) broken registration setup. And you needed to learn the zones too. Now I just arrive to a city and hop into the transport method of my choice.
- sureglymop 2y ago
  This is my favorite thing about transport in Switzerland. If you have a general subscription you can use trains, buses, even ships. There are exceptions such as privately ran gondolas going up to mountains but mostly you can just go anywhere without worrying about it.
your_drunk_dad 2y ago
No amount of subsidy will make me give up my car. Obviously I also use trains but having a car is just too convenient in some situations and in some places not having a car is just disability.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  The ticket achieves most of its goal even if you keep your car for the more annoying edge cases but move a significant fraction of your trips from car to rail.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
I don’t understand why, given that Germans are generally quite precise - German engineering and manufacturing is world-famous for a reason, why DBahn can’t get the trains to run on time. This isn’t Italy after all. The Swiss and Japanese manage to do it. Can someone explain?
- pahn 2y ago
  It's money. If you look at investement into the railway system per capita, Italy actually spends more on their railway system than Germany: https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pro-kopf-investitionen-gesunken/ https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/presse/pressemitteilungen...
- dingensundso 2y ago
  Mismanagement. Years of cutting maintenance and personell to make profits.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- diffeomorphism 2y ago
  DBahn was privatized in a way that combines the worst of both worlds: private but 100% owned by the state. Opaque labyrinth of 600 subcompanies. Also, some textbook examples of bad incentives. For example, repairing bridges is paid by DB. If a bridge is beyond repair, then the tax payer pays. Predictable result: doing hardly any maintenance until the bridge fails. (That example is by now fixed, but shows the clear lack of planning) Finally, the system is just over capacity. Many more trains but same infrastructure as decades ago. If you got rid of half the schedule and used a swiss-like system of stopping several minutes at every station, the trains could be on time. But the trains already are overcrowded, so then what do you do with all the passengers?
- slightwinder 2y ago
  It's the classical combo of poor budget and conflicting budgeting with aging infrastructure and bad management. DB was privatized 20, 30 years ago, but parts of the infrastructure is public property and managed by the state. So DB willingly let rot them until the state will start renewing, which does take ages of course. At the same time, DB also started saving significant money, because that's what private companies are doing, so they removed parts of the infrastructure, which later started harming the planing on a nationwide level. And on top of this, there are parts of the infrastructure which are literally up to 150 years old, but still in use for whatever reason. Or in other words: classical underfunded, overused legacy system showing its age.

823 points by mpweiher 2y ago

Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Additionally, there are so many apps that resell the ticket as some white label system, so it was very confusing to purchase (you cannot buy them at the machines). The price hike is the wrong direction here if we are reducing that much time on the road. Kudos though for the great rail systems. The USA has a lot to learn here and it’s baffling how terrible it is here. I doubt I’d ever need a car in Germany given the rail system was much more convenient. In the USA I spend 10-15 mins trying to park any time I go anywhere

luto 2y ago
It started with 9€, is 49€ now, and will be 58€ starting 2025. You can buy for a single month when booking through the right company. "mo.pal" is a good one, for example. However, I agree that it is a bit predatory.
geraldwhen 2y ago
Germany is smaller than California. The United States is very, very large place, mostly unpopulated. It’s hard to apply whatever Germany, a small, densely populated country does to the US, which is largely empty land.
- waveBidder 2y ago
  Look, nobody is talking about Nebraska. the density of the east coast is easily high enough to support high speed high quality rail.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    That's why they call it "flyover country". Not "railover country".
- Larrikin 2y ago
  Why do we have to pretend that routes between Montana and South Dakota have to come up when discussing ways of improving rail usage in the US? We could treat routes between Chicago, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis like Germany. We could treat high speed rail in California or the Northeast like Japan. Choosing to live in an extremely rural area shouldn't just be a "well it doesn't help" me trump card to defeat things that will help most of the population.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Exactly. Always somebody trots out invalid arguments about size and population density. There are smaller states in the USA that are about as dense as Germany, like Maryland and Connecticut. So, why don't those states have great state-wide public transit systems?
  - adamc 2y ago
    The politics at the national level are likely to be that states not helped by this vote against it.
    - twodave 2y ago
      Yep, federal income tax is a big reason. For states to fund this on their own requires additional taxation. Some places like FL don’t even have a state income tax, so they are stuck trying to get tourists to fund transportation projects somehow or increasing sales taxes or higher tolls. And of course higher tolls have the unfortunate side effect of reducing demand for the thing to begin with.
    - Larrikin 2y ago
      Maybe we should work on making one vote to be equal in the nation.
      - kortilla 2y ago
        This is a boring trope. Whether it’s a group of United States or a single State is a debate as old as the country. You’re going to need really compelling reasons for states to give up their representation and participate in the state vote required to amend the constitution to remove their rights.
- shantara 2y ago
  And how many people regularly commute across the United States? The absolute majority of the journeys people make regularly is still quite short, so why not start by optimizing for them? Then continue with building high speed intercity connections between the urban areas with <500 km distance to create valuable alternatives to being stuck in the highway traffic and dealing with the airport security nonsense. Why do you always think that you need to reinvent a tried and true solutions that have been proven to work across the world?
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Also even if you're worried about going cross-country, that requires what, two fast lines between the coasts to get good routes? So even though those areas don't have many people per square mile, passing through would need an extremely small amount of track per square mile.
- ben_w 2y ago
  1. CA is the 3rd largest state in the USA. Do any of the 47 smaller states have something like this? 2. As the unpopulated bits necessarily don't have many people or things to do in them, the cost of subsidising a public transit ticket in those places is necessarily small.
oersted 2y ago
I don't have the details, but every single time I have heard the mention of Deutsche Bahn in the last few years it has been accompanied by comments of how broken it has become, with constant delays and cancellations, to the point where for many people it is no longer a viable option for commute or for anything where you cannot risk to be up to several hours late. I guess it's all relative. If you come to rely on an excellent and omnipresent rail service for many years as a society, the impacts are quite big when it stops working well. If the service itself is built assuming reliability, where transferring between trains is common, then issues can get substantially amplified if that choreography gets somewhat disrupted.
- dustyventure 2y ago
  It was broken long before the offer though so the reduction in driving being moderate probably reflects fewer shifts in daily commute and mostly more leisure usage.
- sadcherry 2y ago
  There is a big reporting bias though. You won't see in the news "of the 40,000 railway connections today, most were on time". You only read about some train having had an AC issue or the like. I have family in Germany and they never go by train but tell me regularly about how bad the train has become. They have literally not been in one for 15+ years. But they watch the news every day.
  - currymj 2y ago
    among intercity trains run by Deutsche Bahn, the on-time rate hovers around 2/3. it's technically true that "most were on time", but one third being late is really terrible, especially since you often need to make a tight connection. even if your family has no justifiable basis for believing what they do about DB, they happen to be correct by luck. https://ibir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/combined-management-report/product-quality-and-digitalization/the-customer-is-at-the-center-of-our-actions/punctuality/ https://ibir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/combined-management-re...
    - 2y ago
lispm 2y ago
> Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? That was a time limited earlier ticket. "The tickets were valid for June, July, or August 2022. The offer aimed at reducing energy use amid the 2021–2022 global energy crisis." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket It influenced the idea to come up with a permanent ticket: the "Deutschlandticket". It started 1. Mai 2023. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandticket The Deutschlandticket costs max 49 Euros (next year it will cost 58€ per month) and is valid for one month for mostly all local&regional public transport systems (plus a few selected non-regional trains) in the whole of Germany. The subscription will renew automatically. Companies often support employees by paying some of the costs. Then it typically costs 34.30 € per month. From next year on, employees pay 40,60 € per month max. Here in my home city already 94% of the 213000 pupils use the Deutschlandticket for 0 € per month. Every pupil has free access to all of the country's local&regional public transport system... I find that kind of mind-blowing. I have the ticket in my iPhone's wallet and thus also in the Apple Watch wallet. Additionally I need an ID card. Which at some point in time will also come to the smartphone. https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/new-mobile-phone-app-will-allow-digital-id-cards-germany https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/new-mob...
- consp 2y ago
  > Every pupil has free access to all of the country's local&regional public transport system... I find that kind of mind-blowing. We've had this since the 1990s for higher education students. One of the known effects is that students who got it, used the public transport systems more often after wards as they were more familiar with it. I would not be surprised if Germany has a simmilar effect. The problem with these effect is they far outgrow the attention span of polititians as they take years to come to full force.
  - sva_ 2y ago
    It was only valid for the state in which the university is, and not all universities offered it. Most students now get the nationwide ticket for effectively about 30€/month.
weinzierl 2y ago
"I LOVE the German transit system" I have some experience with the public transport systems in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and Belgium. In my opinion Germany's is the worst. Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. The tariffs (apart from the Deutschlandticket) are overly complicated and suffer heavily under the common balkanization. The DB Navigator is so terrible that I try to book the German leg of my international travels from one of the other countries apps whenever possible. For a counter example look at the French SNCF Connect app. It is not perfect but it is a pretty workable solution.
- lispm 2y ago
  > Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now. > The DB Navigator is so terrible It's not terrible. I managed to book all my train travels just fine with it, also using a business bahncard which gives me a 50% discount on all trains.
  - eptcyka 2y ago
    I couldn't pay for my ubahn with a credit card on the bahn, and the app required me to use some kind of a paypal derivative. I did not pay. Regardless of whether it is digitized or not, regional trains suck. To pay on the train, I think I was forced to use cash. Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. Or was it snail mail? I didn't attempt it, I just saw that my train was delayed for hours with no explanation for what can I do about it, realized I'm missing my connection and then booked a plane ticket and got home faster than if I had traveled by rail without any delays. 10/10, will fly whenever possible from now on.
    - lispm 2y ago
      Pay before. That's how the transport systems generally work in Germany. In many trains you need to have a ticket BEFORE entering the train and also BEFORE entering the platform in the train station. > Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. I can do that in the DB app.
jonp888 2y ago
> Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? The €9 ticket was a 3 month temporary offer, which was not originally intended to continue permanently at all. > I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. The ticket is subsidised by the German government(beyond the amount that all rail infrastructure and most services are subsidised) for the purpose what is covered in the article - encouraging permanent modal shift of regular travellers(primarily commuters) from road to rail. If you're a tourist, it's not meant for you. Sorry.
- sadcherry 2y ago
  Airtravel is also subsidised by the German tax payer. Much more than the 49 EUR ticket. No matter if you are a tourist or not. (Arguably mostly for tourists actually.)
  - kristianp 2y ago
    What's the method of subsidy there? Contributing to Airbus shares?
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Commercial aviation fuel is tax exempt in the EU, I would already count that as a subsidy (yes, I count not taxing something that's normally taxed as a subsidy, even if it isn't done by directly paying out money).
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      Subsidising airports and fuel, presumably.
  - jacooper 2y ago
    How is it subsidized while a local flight costs more than an international one? The idea is to push people to use the train, but a train isn't an alternative if it takes 9 hours compared to the 2 hour flight.
juliangmp 2y ago
>I LOVE the German transit system What? How? I have the ticket and despite that I never use any regional train because they're generally awful. (Local busses and trams on the other hand work pretty well)
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  Regional trains are really okay compared to long-distance trains. These are so bad that it's unlikely that you reach your destination on time now.
consumerx 2y ago
True, significant only because offered for 9 EUR initially.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Not only — when I visit friends in the UK, I've had single rail tickets cost more than the increased next years' cost of a monthly nationwide ticket here in Germany.
hilux 2y ago
I'm a big fan of public transit, but it's not entirely "baffling" why the US lags European countries (and Japan) - the US is a MUCH larger country.
- server_man3000 2y ago
  There’s a happy medium somewhere though and the US doesn’t meet it at all. I can’t even take a bus from my neighborhood in a California city to the grocery store in a timely manner and it’s often cancelled
  - hilux 2y ago
    Oh, I know - I live in Oakland. I think even here the population density is lower than in European cities. (It's definitely lower than in Asian mega-cities.) But yes, I do wish California did better. People are used to bad transit, and have never visited Tokyo or even NYC, so expectations are low.
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  But the DC to Boston line isn't
- lispm 2y ago
  > the US is a MUCH larger country with much of the population in a few denser areas, where public transport would make a lot of sense.
- ben_w 2y ago
  The EU is only about half the land area of the USA; Germany is roughly equivalent of the fourth largest US state, Montana, and only CA, TX, and AK are bigger. Do any states have something equivalent to this?
  - hilux 2y ago
    And Germany has a population of 83 million. Montana has a population of 1.1 million. I don't get your point.
onli 2y ago
> If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Just in case this is helpful to someone, you can buy the ticket from one of those different transport organizations you mentioned and avoid that time limit to cancel. The one to use for that is https://www.mopla.solutions/ https://www.mopla.solutions/, it's a simple app (alternatively web site) that worked really well for me (no affiliation).
emaro 2y ago
Surprised how positive you're writivg about the German public transport. The Deutsche Bahn doesn't have a good reputation in central Europe. I guess my frame of reference isn't average, given I live in Switzerland. Edit: the 49-euro ticket is great though!
- ben_w 2y ago
  As a UK citizen living in Berlin, I assure you that for all the cancellations and repair works, there's many places which look up to the German system. (I've also been to the USA, and (IMO) Amtrak makes the UK look good).
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    The UK is so expensive though. I thought I was looking at airplane fares.
    - JackMorgan 2y ago
      I recently needed two tickets from NYC to LA, and was astonished to find air tickets for $80 and rail tickets for $2200. It's so unbelievably expensive (not counting that the flight was a few hours and the train was 56 hours). Very disappointing! How is it so expensive?!
      - guenthert 2y ago
        Competition, I suppose. Still, that seems extreme. A few years (might have been eight) back, I traveled Amtrak's Zephyr from Chicago to California. The roomette for two (coach would have been cheaper) was some $450, about the same as 2nd class air fare for one then. But yes, the train isn't in a particular hurry, expected travel time is some 50h, but 1.5h in, it was already 20m late for no apparent reason. Most passengers were tourist, but I also talked to a fellow who was going to California to pick up a used car for his daughter. I like the idea of long distance train traveling, as one can get off and back on later (check the fine print of your ticket though). Apparently, that's not customary however and earned me an interview by a TSA agent (a very polite fellow, odd as it may sound) who approached me (with a local Sheriff in tow) at a scheduled stop.
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
> is a bit predatory what bugs me the most is that i can only book it for a specific calendar month. that is _so_ stupid ...
serial_dev 2y ago
> I doubt I’d ever need a car in Germany given the rail system was much more convenient Sure, if you live in a larger city and you never leave… I lived in Munich for years and never needed a car, just comfortable shoes, a bike and occasionally a transport ticket. Try to get to a smaller town or village, you are lucky if you only spend twice as much time getting there as with a car. The trains get randomly cancelled, delay is basically guaranteed, the workers go on strikes relatively frequently, so you can never rely on trains working for anything remotely important.
sva_ 2y ago
> You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Pro tip: some websites offer to start the subscription later in the month and you only pay for those days. So if, for example, you were to attend a certain hacker conference in Hamburg at the end of December, you could buy the ticket for the last 5 days of the month for 49/31*5 euro. Just have to cancel before 10th of December so that it doesn't renew. ("HVV Switch" App)
happyraul 2y ago
Cancellation terms vary by vendor. With some better ones, you can cancel 24 hours before the end of the month to avoid being billed for the next month.
luplex 2y ago
Yep, it's not really meant for tourists. They really want everyone to stay in the subscription model, because it's heavily subsidized, so they need to hit a high enough LTV anyways.
dgellow 2y ago
It’s not really made for tourists from outside the country, you already have special tickets for people who visit for a short time. It’s for the local population. The price hike is from 49€/month to 58€/month next year. It’s the opposite of predatory IMHO, you have it on your mobile app in a few tap and can cancel easily
carrja99 2y ago
As a tourist, the cost was well worth it. Used buses and rail to get everywhere, booked one DB train from Berlin to Bamberg but otherwise travelled all over Germany during my time there. Just had to remember to cancel.
bowsamic 2y ago
> Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? No, you could never use it on IC or ICEs
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
All of these tickets are only for local/regional trains, not the faster/long-distance trains. You can get from one end of the country to another by changing trains a few time, but e.g. getting from Munich to Berlin would be 6h (direct) with fast trains and 10+ h (changing 3 times) with the regional ones. The subscription model is intentional - this isn't meant to help tourists or to be bought when you need it, it's meant to make sure people have already pre-paid the cost when making a decision whether to take a train or a car (by being cheap enough that people subscribe even if they don't use it all the time).

Roritharr 2y ago

As someone that avoids the german rail at all costs I applaud this move, the freer the roads and airports are for me, the better.

chairmansteve 2y ago
Exactly. I don't understand why most car owners are so opposed to public transport.
- waveBidder 2y ago
  the same reason omnivores are sometimes highly critical of veg*ns: there's a moral claim going on, so their identity/ moral standing is threatened.
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    It's not a question of moral standing or identity but rather that public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do. Those things gaining too much popularity threatens the way you do things. We have examples of this happening, eg smoking. It has become unpopular enough that governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes or just making it entirely illegal for only a certain year cohort (literal age discrimination).
    - consteval 2y ago
      > would like to force you to live like they do Okay, so it's exactly a question of moral standing and identity.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - pkd 2y ago
      > public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do Is there a citation for this claim? > governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes Is it nonsensical? There is research[1][2] showing that flavoured tobacco is one of the primary factors used to attract younger users. We know that tobacco is bad, and also that flavoured tobacco increases its usage, so unless you are against public health policy measures themselves, it follows logically that flavoured tobacco should be covered by public health measures. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9007155/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9007155/ [2] https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/6/709 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/6/709

pjmlp 2y ago

Except this only helped the folks living close to big train station hubs, across the country there are plenty of places where the car is the only viable option.

orra 2y ago
Well, no, it's primarily about regional travel, so it clearly helps folks near to smaller stations. Plus: your point, caller? Investing in roads only helps folks with cars. There are plenty of people for whom public transport is the only option.
- b59831 2y ago
  [dead]
- pjmlp 2y ago
  1h car, 3h public transport, that is the point.
Glawen 2y ago
Germany is a dense country with a developed rail network, you are never far from a train station. Bear in mind that this includes also city transportation, which makes it a great deal. My gripe with the ticket is that traveling with bikes in regional train became a gamble, you never know if you can get in as there is so many people inside already (and even more when the previous train got cancelled, which happens a lot...)
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Yeah, but doesn't make the Bahn more punctual, or reduce those comute times from 3h down to the 1h that is possible by car, not having to jump across four connections, with related delays and dropped connections.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    The 49 Euro ticket is about local transportation, when you are talking about 3h you are talking about intercity transportation not covered by this ticket. Intercity travel has lots of punctuality problems but many of the local train operations and S-Bahn are often much superior. At least in places where I have been, like Karlsruhe, Berlin, Hamburg the local transport has been very good. Not everything in live is about long distance communing. > 3h down to the 1h That completely depends on the details of your route and ignores lots of possible aspects. As a universal statement its just outright false.

zelphirkalt 2y ago

Well, of course, if we didn't have traffic ministers again and again, who do everything they can to make rail less attractive and road more attractive, then we could probably have a great system. But automobile lobby is so strong, they buy all the politicians in that role, probably even before they land in that role, so I guess normal people will have to keep suffering, so that those politicians can have a life of luxury. Thank you.

gacklecackle 2y ago
Automobile lobby? That's BS. The German rail system has been cost-saved to death, it now barely handles the increased passenger volume as a result of the D-Ticket. Overcrowded trains, even more delays and train cancellations (b/c of insufficient staff coverage, malfunctioning doors, etc.) even with S-Bahn trains are getting out of hand. "Transitwende" my ass! Same with the "Energiewende". How i envy the Dutch and Belgian transport situation!
- Fanmade 2y ago
  I don't get why you would write your first two sentences. It is very obvious how the automobile lobby has a direct influence here. Here is an excellent documentary (in German) that analyzes the issues with the DB. https://youtu.be/-dmtNToFwuI?si=3ydA_QOjzOvTke2_&t=480 https://youtu.be/-dmtNToFwuI?si=3ydA_QOjzOvTke2_&t=480 At the linked time stamp, they mention that every minister of transport in the very influential period from 2009-2021 came from Bavaria, with heavy influence from companies like Audi, MAN, and BMW.
- hobofan 2y ago
  > The German rail system has been cost-saved to death Yes, because the the traffic ministers allocate the spending of their resort to the Autobahn instead of the Deutsche Bahn.
caseyy 2y ago
Quite many "normal people" also enjoy the freedom of the automobile. It has contributed significantly to the culture of autonomy, unity on large scales (beyond one's local town), and cosmopolitanism. Online, it is acceptable to be cynical about cars, but in the real world, among common people, this mindset is not that prevalent. Even in European countries lauded for great public transport, people own and enjoy cars. Of course, there are benefits to public transport that the car cannot offer, such as efficiency at scale. But it's not so black-and-white. There are also benefits to car ownership that public transport cannot offer, such as independence. One might say that Uber, car sharing companies, and shopping online are bridging the independence gap. To an extent, this is true. But not always. Particularly, not when the non-car-ownership option is much more expensive, and not when people’s needs demand a higher level of independence. My point: much of this has more nuance than is opined online. Do not presume when speaking for “normal people”.

petesergeant 2y ago

I really really would like to see Labour in the UK to use their sizeable majority + Parliamentary sovereignty to upgrade the UK’s infrastructure, including more train subsidies, but they seem very cautious and also terrified of raising taxes. Such a waste that the UK is one of the few places where Parliament could just ram shit through and yet building anything in the UK is so hampered by self-imposed red tape.

chgs 2y ago
15 years of all major parties supporting hs2 and it couldn’t be rammed through Want to improve things for people in the UK, ram through massive new housing akin to the newtowns of 50 years ago.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  HS2 was an ongoing project, it was threw. It was simply cancled by a fucking asshat person who tried to appeal to the far right in a series of stunts to save his sorry ass. New housing has to be built along transportation corridors. If you want to efficiently build housing, you have to extend transportation infrastructure into areas and then grow towns around that. This isn't actually hard and has been done for 100 years but somehow in modern day many countries are to stupid to understand this.
  - chgs 2y ago
    HS2 spent years and billions trying to keep the moaners in the chilterns happy. The number of tunnels is insane. The M40 didn’t have this problem. Yes transportation goes without saying. Places like Telford and Milton Keynes and the likes. There are tons of places on the WCML that could have MK style communities.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > through massive new housing akin to the newtowns of 50 years ago New towns will just be full of commuters and have no life in them. We need to build high rises in cities, and give people living in apartments real rights - the leasehold system is feudalism. And give Manchester and Birmingham real metro/tube systems!

jdietrich 2y ago

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externalities, but I don't know how to price any of them. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/ghg-abatement-costs-for-selected-measures-of-the-sustainable-recovery-plan https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/ghg-abatement...

szundi 2y ago
Secret plan of car driving politicians to decrease the traffic for themselves
Arn_Thor 2y ago
When you say “carbon abatement” do you mean carbon credits/cleanup or other ways of emitting less of it in the first place?
V__ 2y ago
> already substantial subsidies for the rail industry Though to be fair, there are also substantial subsidies for the whole road network.
- theendisney4 2y ago
  Roads are much more efficient with fewer cars.
  - kachapopopow 2y ago
    The weather would like to have a word with you.
  - bmoxb 2y ago
    By what metric?

k__ 2y ago

It's pretty awesome, but it gets more expensive all the time. First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. People loved it, and the government talked about doing a permanent 29€ ticket. But now we pay 49€ and it's already planned to become 59€. Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore.

lispm 2y ago
> Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Depends. In my city "poor" people pay less. Just 19 € per month. Pupils don't pay at all. Students pay 29.40 €.
kingkongjaffa 2y ago
It's still super affordable for the average worker using these tickets to commute.
epolanski 2y ago
It's meant to be an alternative to car drivers which are still gonna save over driving even with multiple hikes ahead.
Aachen 2y ago
Remember that it cost a small rent to get this subscription until the 9€ experiment. Flat fee national transport, I don't remember the exact price but it's multiple hundreds a month in both the Netherlands (NS altijd/trein vrij) and Germany (Bahnkarte 100). Even my local subscription to go ~10km between two cities in Germany (NRW) cost 90€ a month until that experiment A nationwide subscription for 60 euros is a steal, even when the long distance trains are excluded
- dunefox 2y ago
  Except for people who simply don't have 60€ a month easily, so they're left out. Also, it will absolutely not stay at 60€, it will become more expensive each year until the local tickets are cheaper again - defeating the whole purpose (if it won't be reverted outright after the next election, which the conservatives will win).

internetter 2y ago

I made an argument for making my local public transportation free: https://boehs.org/node/free-the-t https://boehs.org/node/free-the-t Some of the arguments is based on similar German research, which is cited.

hit8run 2y ago

[flagged]

theendisney4 2y ago

The real puzzle imho is to get people to use public transport for the mostly empty route and time combinations. There are many of those for different reasons. Trains are so heavy it doesnt really cost or save anything if there are people inside or not. Its like restaurants throwing away food.

owisd 2y ago
The UK offers aggressive discounts for advance purchasing tickets on long distance routes at quiet times, which works well.
- switch007 2y ago
  Which are used to justify expensive non-Advance tickets. £80 if I have the audacity to go to greater London today without having planned ahead (3 hour journey + tube). And the same cost coming back - off peak of course. £160! Vs £55 in petrol Travel at quieter times to benefit from cheaper off peak tickets they used to say. Hah.
  - timeinput 2y ago
    And with strikes, weather related closures, maintenance closures, etc I end up having to rebook my ticket at the last minute. I'd say half of the advanced purchased journeys end up costing me more than just booking the train the day of.
    - switch007 2y ago
      Yes! Now we are getting on to the true cost of advanced tickets. Fines for making mistakes, rebooking fees, rebooking and having to pay a higher fare, lost tickets because sometimes it's just easier to book a new ticket, losing out when unwell etc... I bet they make a tidy sum from unused advance tickets (Great Britain specific): Although worth noting when it's out of your control the railway does have to offer you options. You don't have 100% of the liability. And if your train is cancelled you're entitled to take the one before/after for example or get a refund Though they do make this difficult these days

overflyer 2y ago

Which I as a German simply fail to fathom. The quality of our Deutsche Bahn is so bad I would never drive by train. The worst thing is that they are incapable to have their trains be on time. Whenever you travel there is an extremely high chance you will not arrive at your destination in time.

Aachen 2y ago
Not every trip is time sensitive, most trains do run on time, and not all trains are operated by your nemesis. If you still refuse to "ever" take a train anywhere, that's on you rather than the system
patall 2y ago
Because it is a regional problem and some areas work mostly fine. I also fail to fanthom why people drive in rush hour, queuing every day for hours. Yet people do that. And people love to complain, especially those that only take trains on public holidays. But hey, here in Sweden the trains are worse than in Germany, but people complain far less and trains are full anyways.
locallost 2y ago
It's still more punctual than going by car. I can't remember any long distance car trip where I wasn't stuck in traffic and my trip was much longer than predicted by the navigation system.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
The regional trains (which the ticket applies to) are much better than the long-distance trains: https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476# https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen...

hankchinaski 2y ago

Would be interesting to see if the subsidy is covered by additional economic activity to cover the shortfall. If not it won’t last long, money doesn’t grow on trees

moffkalast 2y ago
On the other hand the Bundeswehr burns through 50 billion a year to do fuck all, so apparently it does indeed grow on trees.
- contravariant 2y ago
  Military spending is a bit of an odd one. It's basically expensive by design and ideally doesn't have any real effect. It's not far off from a proof-of-work system. Especially given how there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawed such that the only options remaining are costly in people, money and goods.
  - jenadine 2y ago
    > there are many cheaper options to get rid of an enemy, but those have been outlawe I'm curious. What are these options?
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      Nukes, I think they mean nukes. Though "cheaper" is kind of debatable there, a fleet of SSBNs isn't cheap by any measure.
saagarjha 2y ago
It does when maintaining roads, apparently.
DoingIsLearning 2y ago
Someone in the comments mentioned this costs 3B per year when in comparison Germany spends 20B per year on Oil/Gas subsidies/tax benefits. Arguably if more people are using rail it can become palatable to shift that money away from the tax benefits and subsidies for Oil which (equally) artificially lower fuel prices from real market prices (and which people seem to have no problem with).

exabrial 2y ago

I have to admit the ‘all access’ ticket system was pretty awesome when I visited. Note that this did not include trains going into Austria (even if you road them only in Germany). Nearly every city is joined by rail and it’s incredible. Sadly in the US Midwest we just don’t have there population density to do this sort of thing.

ggernov 2y ago

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

tantivy 2y ago
Hundreds of thousands of people use public transit daily in America. Long headways, poor coverage, and lackluster maintenance budgets are a much more important problem than what you're describing.
- jahnu 2y ago
  I take your point but the reality is millions use it daily. Also where it is better more use it. Which is the important point lost to many.
partiallypro 2y ago
I think this is one reason why it is rarely expanded, people associate the stops as a way for criminals to get around; but I think usage is not great largely because it hasn't expanded...it's a self-feeding cycle.
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
> The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. That's a lie told by people who sell fear as a product to people who always want new reasons to live in fear.
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  Remember folks, if someone says they don't want to ride transit with a hobo smoking meth, they're lying and they're a bad person. Even if they've previously experienced it firsthand.
  - 2y ago

jmyeet 2y ago

This last week we would've probably all seen the photos of the gridlock on I-75 as Tampa Bay residents fled Hurricane Milton. If you followed the story you know it eventually became almost impossible to evacuate. We should also know how much more efficient buses are on roads at moving people than individual cars are. You can fit ~60 people on a bus that takes up the space of ~2 cars. What should happen in these emergencies is there should be dedicated bus lanes and dedicates buses to evacuate people. But beyond that, what we should learn from this is that lack of public transit (intracity and intercity) is a public safety issue. Cars simply aren't an efficient use of resources. You can see from the comments here people will talk about "subsidies" for rail. Why does rail need to turn a profit? Roads don't. The Post Office doesn't. The Fire Department doesn't. Yet for some reason we hold public transport infrastructure to a higher standard. Americans, in particular, love their cars. And there has been a powerful lobbying operation to associate rail with tax increases. This is so short-sighted because nobody is confiscating your car. Fewer people on the roads will improve your driving experience and travel times. We see in the UK that it's cheaper to fly to Spain than to take intercity train journeys. As far as I'm concerned, citywide rail (eg the Tube in London, the NYC Subway) should be free and intercity rail should have a nominal cost that is cheaper than driving.

kjkjadksj 2y ago
Kind of a tidbit with those photos but I was expecting to see congestion and was monitoring google maps traffic layers for the central florida area two days and a day before milton (I forgot to check on the actual day it hit) and the highways were surprisingly bright green with a little tiny backup where the florida turnpike interchanges with the interstate. I guess if you wait till the last minute no matter what method you use to evacuate its going to get ugly.
BlueTemplar 2y ago
In some ways, it's all kind of moot, since the current usage of cars, trucks, planes is all unsustainable on short timescales (decades). Bus and rail is likely to be unsustainable for much longer (centuries ?).

lagrange77 2y ago

Am i a communist when i prefer a government to operate and provide basic services like the public transport system, the postal system, the telecommunication/internet service or prisons either paid by taxes or by fees, that don't generate profit beyond paying the costs, instead of using taxes to rescue bankrupt banks and companies? EDIT: Oh and hospitals!

layer8 2y ago
No. That's not even socialist.
manquer 2y ago
> Am i a communist Even if you were, is that really a bad thing? Why do we demonize communism (and socialism ) so much ? Poor implementation in Soviet Union or in PRC that is only seen through the color of propaganda with the inherent cultural and ideological biases is hardly a good basis for judging a movement that was a response to centuries of extreme worker exploitation in direct result industrialization and raise of machines. Are there really bad ideas in socialism ? yes of course, there are bad ideas in late stage capitalism or in any free market system or any system. We learn and try to take to best from all economic systems not demonize any of them.
- lagrange77 2y ago
  > Even if you were, is that really a bad thing? I noticed, that it sounded like that after i submitted the comment. Was not intended. > Are there really bad ideas in socialism ? yes of course, there are bad ideas in late stage capitalism or in any free market system or any system. I totally agree.
_19qg 2y ago
Otto von Bismarck introduced much of the social safety net in Germany, incl. health insurance (in 1883). He definitely was not a communist. He once called it "practical christianity" ("praktisches Christentum").
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

WuxiFingerHold 2y ago

How many people used the tracking app for how long? How were they chosen? The study would be flawed if the group is not chosen to represent correctly the entire population. E.g., if they called for volunteers using the app, mostly people will apply that are engaged in climate change mitigation anyway and / or are in the target market for the 49 Euro ticket.

pentacent_hq 2y ago
The data are based on cellphone tower data and app tracking data which, according to them [1] "is based on millions of app tracking movement patterns […] [and was shown by] Koch et al (2023) to be representative for the population of car-owners" [1] https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/

guelermus 2y ago

It was one of the most intelligent ( and rare) decision the government took. Off course, there are parties loosing money like car manufacturers and oil producers.

isodev 2y ago
That's a double win in my book.
Fanmade 2y ago
I agree. I still have to rely on my car for basically everything because the same government also fucked up the rail system so severely that it barely works in my region. When I moved from a small village to the city, I sold my car and wanted to use public transportation for everything. I'm not fond of driving, especially in cities, so this looked like a no-brainer. I had my first bad experiences quickly when I learned that public transportation wasn't anywhere as reliable as I previously thought. I had to choose between going to work 45 minutes earlier (of course, unpaid and without the possibility of leaving earlier) or risking being too late half the time. I had to travel further for my next job, but I thought it would be better because it was another connection. I was wrong. It was usually better in the mornings, but my way home usually took between 1,5 and 3 hours instead of the planned 45 minutes. The next job I chose only because there, at least, I could take the S-Bahn instead of the Deutsche Bahn Trains, and it was a direct connection, which was way more reliable. But it was very loud, very smelly, cold in winter, and very hot in summer (I remember having a working AC twice in the four years that I traveled that line), and there were (not always empty) beer bottles rolling around the floor almost all the time. I always paid for the entire year in advance, so the 90-minute daily drive did cost a little more than 220 Euros monthly. Otherwise, it would have been even more expensive. So, the current ticket would have improved that, at least financially. Now, I barely take the train anymore. I broke my ankle so badly in my youth that the doctors told me that they had to completely cut it open from both sides to see if they could improve it in any way. They also said that there was a strong possibility that I would wake up with a fused ankle after the operation. They recommended I only do that when the pain becomes unbearable, which I am now waiting for. So, I am permanently in pain, and walking is terrible for me. Still, when I have to go to the nearby city center, I prefer walking for 45 minutes instead of taking the 10-minute trip by train. That is what relying on German public transportation for more than ten years did to me. I tried that train connection multiple times before and stopped after it took me over an hour twice (after about five trips total). Disclaimer: It is not that bad everywhere in Germany. That's why I wrote "in my region" in the beginning. Within Berlin, for example, I had good experiences with public transportation. Well, at least regarding its availability. There were still junkies in there. And homeless people who smelled like they were living on that train for at least a few weeks. But well, that's another topic.

nnurmanov 2y ago

Is it a good practice when you give out blanket subsidies? Does targeted subsidies work better and are cost effective? I am researching this topic applied to taxation field.

mondaymusings 2y ago
Targeted subsidies entail explicit extra administrative costs and implicit costs (or benefit omissions) when some eligibles do not receive the subsidy due to e.g. paperwork friction. The alternative is universal benefits + taxes. See https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2022/11/11/universal-benefits-cost-less-than-means-tested-benefits/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2022/11/11/universal-be...

ganesh7 2y ago

I doubt that. Independent research paints a less clear picture. i would welcome it if the ticket were only free for workers, who suffer from one of the world's highest taxes and levies. It should not be available to welfare recipients.

kombine 2y ago

I just returned from a trip in Germany back to the UK and I find it frustrating that we don't have such a ticket in this country.

alfanick 2y ago
I moved some years ago from Dresden, Saxony, Germany to Rheintal, Switzerland - looking for some bigger mountains. In Dresden-area there was a nice 4-people day ticket for the whole area - <20EUR for 4 people total. Switzerland? Every guest spends at least 50CHF per person per day, wild.

luplex 2y ago

Even at 58€/month, it's great value for me, as my employer pays half the price and I live in a big city. If you live in a smaller town or in the countryside, then your problem really isn't the price of public transport, but the quality.

cbmuser 2y ago

> It statistically evaluated mobile phone and car movement data for Germany How do you obtain car movement data if not by tracking cell phones?

tastroder 2y ago
Their accompanying website [0] says mobile phone data comes from teralytix while car movement data is sourced through inrix [1], which appears to gather data through navigation apps of some sort (vague as can be expected but the linked paper [2] claims that). [0] https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ https://mcc-berlin-ariadne.shinyapps.io/dticket-tracker/ [1] https://inrix.com/ https://inrix.com/ [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4526796 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4526796

cdrini 2y ago

The 49 euro ticket is a phenomenally good deal. Normal transit tickets vary per city, but for example in Berlin it's 3.50 per trip. So if you take transit twice a day for 7 days, you already recoup the cost of the Deutschland ticket, which lasts the entire month! This makes it good even for tourists who stay for ~a week. At 59, it's 9 days of two trips to recoup the cost -- still very worth it for someone living in Germany, but a bit more borderline for a tourist. Compare with eg Toronto's monthly pass, which is $156. A single trip is $3.35, which comes out to 24 two-trip days to recoup the cost of the card. That's almost exactly the number of business days in a month. And that card's only for Toronto!

dunefox 2y ago
After the next elections, I fully expect it (and cannabis) to be reversed by the CDU, who will win without a doubt.
- diffeomorphism 2y ago
  It is somewhat popular, so I doubt they will kill it outright. Rather I would guess they "reform" it: lots of variants, much higher price, beaurocratic hoops... and then when people stop using it, say "see, it wasn't so great after all". Same playbook in the UK, where people like the NHS but certain parties don't. Same playbook in the US, where "big government" has to be bad, so anything that does currently work well gets sabotaged.
  - consteval 2y ago
    A lot of times it's even worse than this, because what will happen is well-run public services will be sold off to the private sector. Who then runs away with extreme greed granted from the privilege of an inelastic market. So prices soar and quality plummets. Then, we can point and say "see? Look at how bad it is! It would only be worse if the government ran it!" Extra points if you're able to extract public funds to waste on such private endeavors. See: private schools in America (Yes, they get public funds!)
grues-dinner 2y ago

pimeys 2y ago

My favorite part of this deal is how you can use the same ticket in every city in Germany. Before you had to learn which app to install and then go through the (usually) broken registration setup. And you needed to learn the zones too. Now I just arrive to a city and hop into the transport method of my choice.

sureglymop 2y ago
This is my favorite thing about transport in Switzerland. If you have a general subscription you can use trains, buses, even ships. There are exceptions such as privately ran gondolas going up to mountains but mostly you can just go anywhere without worrying about it.

your_drunk_dad 2y ago

No amount of subsidy will make me give up my car. Obviously I also use trains but having a car is just too convenient in some situations and in some places not having a car is just disability.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
The ticket achieves most of its goal even if you keep your car for the more annoying edge cases but move a significant fraction of your trips from car to rail.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

I don’t understand why, given that Germans are generally quite precise - German engineering and manufacturing is world-famous for a reason, why DBahn can’t get the trains to run on time. This isn’t Italy after all. The Swiss and Japanese manage to do it. Can someone explain?

pahn 2y ago
It's money. If you look at investement into the railway system per capita, Italy actually spends more on their railway system than Germany: https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pro-kopf-investitionen-gesunken/ https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/presse/pressemitteilungen...
dingensundso 2y ago
Mismanagement. Years of cutting maintenance and personell to make profits.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
diffeomorphism 2y ago
DBahn was privatized in a way that combines the worst of both worlds: private but 100% owned by the state. Opaque labyrinth of 600 subcompanies. Also, some textbook examples of bad incentives. For example, repairing bridges is paid by DB. If a bridge is beyond repair, then the tax payer pays. Predictable result: doing hardly any maintenance until the bridge fails. (That example is by now fixed, but shows the clear lack of planning) Finally, the system is just over capacity. Many more trains but same infrastructure as decades ago. If you got rid of half the schedule and used a swiss-like system of stopping several minutes at every station, the trains could be on time. But the trains already are overcrowded, so then what do you do with all the passengers?
slightwinder 2y ago
It's the classical combo of poor budget and conflicting budgeting with aging infrastructure and bad management. DB was privatized 20, 30 years ago, but parts of the infrastructure is public property and managed by the state. So DB willingly let rot them until the state will start renewing, which does take ages of course. At the same time, DB also started saving significant money, because that's what private companies are doing, so they removed parts of the infrastructure, which later started harming the planing on a nationwide level. And on top of this, there are parts of the infrastructure which are literally up to 150 years old, but still in use for whatever reason. Or in other words: classical underfunded, overused legacy system showing its age.