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Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan
- mugivarra69 2y agothey are watching and will make the switch if it pays off for amazon. dont trust any of the big corps.
- skinney6 2y agoGoogle and AMZN on the phone: You going RTO? Yeah, sure totally going RTO. ANZN announces RTO. Google poaches all AMZN talent that leaves. Google goes RTO a year later.
- 39896880 2y agoDang, can we get a filter for RTO submissions? The discussion hasn’t changed in years. There is nothing new to say about RTO itself. If someone has insights about a particular company and their policies then fine, but we are approaching the fifth year since the original WFH shift.
- taskforcegemini 2y agomake commute time count as work time and remote work will be embraced by companies. Those who can't work from home at least will have the benefit of less traffic on the road.
- gloosx 2y ago>Employees at the tech giant were concerned about losing their hybrid work schedule after Amazon mandated that staff return to the office five days a week. Can someone explain why employees at the freaking google are concerned when amazon is mandating something? Like they are at their friday gtfo or something meeting seriously discussing "Yo amazon just dropped this mandate, should we follow it here at google?". These AI articles are getting out of hand...
- from-nibly 2y agoGoogle claims moral high ground by not crapping on your porch. They could have but they didn't, praise them.
- scarface_74 2y agoHybrid is RTO. If I can’t live where I want to live and work from anywhere, it’s a non starter for me. In my little neck of the woods - cloud consulting/professional services - Google is worse than Amazon where I just left last year. AWS ProServe never had a RTO mandate and from former coworkers I’ve talked to, still doesn’t. Google’s Cloud Consulting division does force a hybrid office schedule which is really dumb considering the work is both customer facing and requires a lot of travel
- sitkack 2y agoWell. Being tied to any one cloud is not a great position to be in. Not patronizing.
- scarface_74 2y agoYou’re always locked in to your infrastructure. The entire idea of “cloud agnosticism” is BS. I’ve seen companies take over a year and thousands of man hours to move from VMs on premise to a cloud platform. Cloud agnosticism is hardly ever a business differentiator
- glzone1 2y agoIt's also not an advantage, I've seen endless complexity in abstractions on abstraction, fragility and giving up really nice cloud features for this. It'd take years to migrate STILL even with all that effort. And they can't ship features they are so busy worrying about AWS going away.
- woooooo 2y agoException, companies like datadog where they're actually operating in several clouds for good business reasons (it's where their customers are).
- abadpoli 2y ago> AWS ProServe never had a RTO mandate Before Covid, no team had an RTO mandate, so ProServe wasn’t really special here. In ProServe you were still expected to be in an office regularly, but it was just understood that you wouldn’t be in an Amazon office all the time because you’re likely at a client’s office instead. Post-covid, it’s mostly the same, although now even many clients aren’t requiring consultants to come in. But when they do, you’re expected to be there.
- vb-8448 2y agofor the moment. my guess is that in the next 12/18 month all of major tech & big corps will follow the amazon's way.
- sneed_chucker 2y agoMaybe, maybe not. Amazon has always been the most employee-hostile of the big tech companies. Google and especially FB/Meta have historically poached a lot of engineers away from them just by being more competitive with comp and benefits.
- christhecaribou 2y agoThese folks literally just saw what Amazon did and did the opposite.
- behringer 2y agoThey just want Amazon talent. Then they'll turn up the heat.
- Hamuko 2y agoYou mean the ones that don't want to go to the office? What's the point of taking in talent, getting them up to speed at Google and then having them leave after 12–18 months?
- whatsdoom 2y agoYou're not going to get a VP job talking like that.
- sottol 2y agoThe general opinion here on HN seems to be that the most talented that can easily land a new job are the first to leave - might be a good time to skim the cream of the crop, even if for 12-18 months. Who knows, many might even stay when every other major company moves to RTO.
- 2y ago
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoI applaud Microsoft and Google for not going with a full RTO. But hybrid work still requires you to live near an office. True remote work enables an economy that is spread out, resilient, and lets people live the way they want. We have this capability so why not do it?
- rmbyrro 2y agoBecause they don't simply want you to perform tasks. They want to assimilate your mind and make it fully committed to a corporate cult. They can best accomplish this by having you spending most of your wake time in their corp kingdom.
- shadowgovt 2y agoHaving been there: it's not that. It's that, unfortunately, they have enough hard numbers to know most people do their best work with a boss physically breathing down their neck. I knew some folks at Google who worked 100% remote and only came into the office for critical meetings about once a month. They had proven they could operate that way with a more-or-less stellar track record.
- azangru 2y ago> It's that, unfortunately, they have enough hard numbers to know most people do their best work with a boss physically breathing down their neck. While the conclusion — that most people do their best work when in the office — may be correct, why do you think that the cause of that is the boss breathing down people's necks rather than, say, more efficient collaboration among team members? My personal observations of my team over the past couple of years are that people are much more engaged, issues get resolved much quicker, and information radiates much better when team members are co-located. This is something that many were in agreement on before covid.
- leksak 2y agoNot to mention how body language helps resolve so much surrounding tone when saying something in person. Telling someone to do a thing face-to-face can easily be neutrally charged. The same sentiment expressed in text can carry more weight - feel like an order and appear as if it is more urgent leading to stress
- xyst 2y agoThey say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing with boss or manager 4) teleconferencing with company stakeholders 5) work on features and push code to remote systems (VCS, CI/CD…) 6) eat shitty food at nearby places, or use the low quality vending machines or cafeteria 7) logoff 8) 1 hr commute back home There are _some_ roles which may require in-person. But those were mostly sales folks. Some IT folks that deal with physical assets did require RTO (ie, data center / network engineers).
- MollyRealized 2y agoNo disrespect intended by this, but I'm a little confused. What makes a direct contradiction of what Google said a reliable statement? Is it just pessimism bias?
- sbrother 2y agoI think the worst part is 9) at night, do more work that requires focus time while no one is bothering you, since expectations got calibrated to when everyone had a private office and more control over their own time.
- rewgs 2y agoThere's no way in hell I'd agree to additional remote work if I'm being demanded to return to the office. Either it's remote or it's not.
- derwiki 2y agoIf you won’t, others will. That’s this job market.
- kentbrew 2y agoDon't forget 10) get your ass in bed by 10pm so you can haul it out at 5 to get to work again on time tomorrow.
- vineyardmike 2y agoGoogle has been shedding office space in the bay. They probably don’t currently have enough desks, and they don’t feel like spending on the office space. They’ve also been aggressively moving teams overseas. My guess is they won’t RTO, or at least not until their headcount matches desk count in core regions.
- angmarsbane 2y agoIf they do RTO I wouldn't expect them to announce it during the busy Q4 holiday shopping season, that's an inopportune time for people to leave the company.
- laweijfmvo 2y agoDidn't they just build a couple massive new buildings in MTV?
- slashdave 2y agohttps://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/environmental-planning/environmental-review/completed-eirs/downtown-west-mixed-use-plan https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-office... 7 million square feet of office space.
- rrdharan 2y agoYes that’s one of the sites they bailed on: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/02/google-ends-agreement-with-lead-developer-of-four-california-campuses.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/02/google-ends-agreement-with-l...
- slashdave 2y agoThat's my point. It's back on. https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/06/19/googles-huge-san-jose-project-moving-ahead/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/06/19/googles-huge-san-jose...
- skzv 2y agoI go to the office almost everyday by choice. Free food, snacks, and coffee, gym, and medical clinics on campus. And it's just nice to get dressed and leave the house. But it's really nice to have the flexibility to WFH when I need to, especially just mornings to skip traffic.
- _proofs 2y agothis sounds like the modern, more privileged version of the coal mine's "company shop", and all the dependencies that industry created as "nice gestures" to their employees just to keep them around and on-site as much as possible.
- ENGNR 2y agoSame! Tech job, my co-founder and I are only a 5 minute drive or bike ride from the office. It’s nice to get dressed and have that separation from home. I feel like the commute is what people are actually feeling the worst, because it’s unpaid time that they just straight up lose. Being close to the office resolves it for us.
- time0ut 2y agoI don't have the discipline to stop working when I work from home. Being able to go into the office every day is a nice perk for me to help structure my day. If it was a longer drive, I'd probably feel differently.
- ultimafan 2y agoI feel the exact opposite- I didn't have the discipline to keep working when I work from home- my productivity plummeted during COVID and skyrocketed when RTO was mandated again. At home I'm too easily distracted by errands, hobby projects in the garage, picking up a book to read "just a chapter" on a coffee break and realizing 2-3 hours have passed, and the like. In office I feel obligated to actually be productive from the combined shame of being seen as a slacker and less physical opportunities to goof off.
- dr-detroit 2y ago[dead]
- crop_rotation 2y agoNot to mention coming to Google office has many perks, Amazon office is much much more barebones.
- alex_lav 2y ago_yet_
- fortyseven 2y agoI'm going to give benefit of the doubt that the headline was probably revised after submission. :(
- worstspotgain 2y agoGoogle proving that they remain a less Xitty company than Amazon. Yes, the bar is low, and yes, we'll see if it lasts.
- sitkack 2y agoNo they have to alternate with the RTO policies, if they did this at the same time, it would trigger a recession.
- mrangle 2y agoThere's going to be a significant exodus of Amazon employees once the mandate kicks in fully. A percentage aren't able to come into the office every day, due to unrealistic commute logistics. Google making this headline sets them up to catch a lot of talent at once, to the point that I suspect this may be part of the policy's intent.
- baq 2y agoit remains to be seen if it will be a net positive for amazon, but people quitting is expected and the primary reason they implemented RTO. it's right there in the public announcement.
- epolanski 2y agoWe snatched a great talent from Amazon. And we didn't even need to throw crazy money, just full remote and 16 weeks of vacations per year. It's amazing what amazing talent you can get paying with time rather than money they don't need.
- azemetre 2y agoWow 4 months is pretty awesome. Are you based in that USA? I worked at companies that had unlimited PTO and no one ever took that much time off.
- epolanski 2y agoEurope/Italy.
- arghnoname 2y agoThat's wild, when I saw 16 weeks I assumed it was a typo and you meant 'days.' I should try to jump ship from FAANG-land
- janalsncm 2y agoRTO is effectively a cut to your hourly wage since you need to commute. I think people would be less sore about it if Amazon and others extended an olive branch of “commute time pay” or something. (And no, free food and snacks don’t count. Amazon doesn’t have that anyways.)
- Ancalagon 2y agoI just start my commute during work hours now and take standups from the car.
- nickjj 2y agoI wonder how different things would be if there were laws where if a company required you to RTO then your commute time is included in your expected working hours. Some companies are asking to RTO for half the week even if you're 50 miles away. Depending on where you're at that could be a ~5 hour round trip commute. If you factor in parking in certain places like NYC you're almost forced into taking a train so having meetings during the commute wouldn't be too realistic. That would mean getting to work at 11:30am and leaving at 3:30pm to work a usual 9-6 hour job. If you take a lunch with your commute then you end up working 3 hours total at the office.
- cush 2y agoI know multiple people who worked at Amazon (I say worked because they've recently quit) who would log two of their three weekly badges by going in the office at 11:59pm, and again at 12:01 am. Their team, managers, and collaborators never actually expected them at their desks. It was all to appease this mandate. It's not surprising that Amazon has moved to 5 days a week despite so many people gaming the system and not actually caring about being in person. There's likely some algorithm driving this entire movement that doesn't take into account any of the real nuance that team dynamics requires, let alone taking into account that there are tangible benefits to remote work.
- qqtt 2y agoI honestly don't think there is any algorithm. For all the bluster and commitment to being "data driven", none of the companies I've seen mandate RTO have provided any sort of data-driven reason why it needs to happen. Amazon's policy might as well be "Jassy feels it in his gut that RTO is better for the company so we are doing it". All the communication of RTO invokes the most fanciful and vague references to "magical hallway conversations" and "increased collaboration" without a single data point to back up any of the claims. It has been almost humorous to watch such stalwarts of "data driven decision making" turn up a giant goose egg with respect to actual evidence on such a huge, impactful, and far reaching decision.
- spydum 2y agoOnly champion data driven decisions when they confirm your desired outcome. Nothing new under the sun.
- mvanbaak 2y agoAmazons RTO is a hidden layoff round. They are overstaffed because they hired like crazy during the pandemic, now they need to slimmdown and will simply wait for people to quit because of the RTO and fire those that dont comply. And they dont have to pay anything because those that leave do so out of free will, and the fired people were simply breaking their contract
- righthand 2y agoI’m pretty sure my friend has been required to return to office for 3 days a week since after the pandemic.
- josephcsible 2y agoI wish this commitment had some kind of actual teeth, maybe something like adding "if we ever require RTO for you to keep your job, and you don't want to, we'll give you 2 years' severance with full benefits" to every remote employee's employment contract.
- kccqzy 2y agoOf course it won't. It doesn't have enough desks to allow everyone to be present simultaneously.
- StarterPro 2y agoRTO Mandates are just attempted power moves by greedy CEOs. We have people living on space stations and promising nuclear fusion, but we still have to be in the office to be productive? Gimmie a break.
- ugh123 2y agoGoogle will most certainly wind down office time on short-term leased offices or those expiring soon. There are likely many around the country/world they have. These could also be smaller offices or areas where they think they could possibly take a wash with a sublease in the current commercial real-estate environment.
- honkycat 2y agoRTO is going to be brutal for us in 3rd tier cities like PDX The tech scene here SUCKS, but I much prefer the lifestyle to a large city ( plus, I can buy a house here. ) Not sure what will happen if the days of remote work ends. How will I get a gig? There was a time in the mid 2010s were they were obsessed with "servant leaders" and "leading from the front"... those days are long-fucking-gone. Guarantee the executive class will not be forced into office.
- ryandrake 2y ago> Guarantee the executive class will not be forced into office. Absolutely, they will find some kind of excuse to justify their jet-setting around and spending time in their various homes across the world, while insisting that the worker bees cannot possibly do their work outside of an office.
- dmitrygr 2y agoPlenty of places are still hiring remote. Do not lose hope
- cruffle_duffle 2y ago> Not sure what will happen if the days of remote work ends. How will I get a gig? The same way you did in 2019. Like it always was.
- closeparen 2y agoOkay, then give me 2019 home prices back.
- th0ma5 2y agoI would be fine in going to the office if they could make it so that I don't get sick. I got sick all the time even before COVID.
- technick 2y agoCompanies should be forced to pay some sort of commute tax every time they force someone to come into an office. Driving an hour to the office and back home, in your car has an impact on everyone and everything around them, it's time they pay up.
- ProfessorLayton 2y agoAt least in the Bay Area, the commute is the tax that follows a severe lack of housing supply, which cities fight tooth and nail against, while encouraging more office space. Low density and driver-centric planning also makes public transport less feasible.
- gerdesj 2y agoI'm the MD of a small company. My attitude towards WFH prior and post pandemic could not be more stark. I am probably a bit more chilled out in general but that is another matter. MSP is a reasonable description of my firm. We have a helpdesk etc and provided calls/jobs/projects are fixed/process within SLAs etc then all is fine. I am now a lot more chilled about where people work from. In return, I know I get a lot back. However, collaboration in person is useful and no amount of email or webrtc is going to replace that. We loosely require two days per week in the office.
- asib 2y agoWhat I've found quite surprising in seeing these WFH vs RTO debates play out over the past couple of years is that even the WFH stans argue in terms defined by the employers. The most obvious example of this is citing evidence that WFH makes people more productive, but there are various other arguments that try to position WFH as beneficial for both employers and employees. I have opinions on many of the points made by both sides, but honestly it strikes me as the wrong argument to be having. The reason I want to be able to WFH is because I prefer it. I don't care if it's better for my employer or not, the same as I don't care whether working on Saturday and Sunday is better or not - I simply won't do it. I know I'm in a privileged position to be able to say "I won't work in an office" and others have obligations that undermine their ability to show RTO employers the finger. I guess I'm just surprised that people demanding WFH, simply because they want it, seem to be in the minority, judging by HN comments (fraught, I know). Perhaps this is a culture clash? I'm British, and this might be a US-centric thing.
- jatins 2y ago> the WFH stans argue in terms defined by the employers that just naturally follows from the employer-employee relationship and the fact is WFO has been the default for decades. So, somewhere the onus is falling onto employees if they want to go against what the default has been
- asib 2y agoI totally agree the onus is on workers - employers spontaneously giving workers more rights is rare. I just think the onus is not on proving that WFH is good for everyone, and instead on bargaining collectively. Especially since these RTO orders seem to be veiled, free layoffs - arguments about productivity are totally hopeless. If Amazon engineers unionised, this RTO mandate could be fought without appeals to employers' business motivations. Workers shouldn't have to grovel for rights, we hold as much power as employers, and refusal to wield it is what hamstrings rights efforts.
- zamadatix 2y agoLike you say, the set of people who'd be pushing the argument from that angle is inherently pretty small. Basically either those that don't need money from a job in the first place + those that want some extra money from a job but only when it's extremely convenient and that boundary just happens to be WFH or not. The others don't inherently care more about their employer than themselves, they care more more about the money impact it means for their compensation. More efficient = more valuable to employer = more compensation. For employees benefit only = less valuable to employer = less compensation.
- tomcam 2y agoI love this. My bias is that returning to office is best for the company. But that doesn't mean I'm right. Here we have a poorly controlled but real-life way to see which one is better. I get that we don't have optimal test conditions, but if Google switches back in a year like /u/xyst suggests, then I assume it failed. Not sure if companies have a reason to discourage working at home if it is equally likely to produce good results.
- worstspotgain 2y agoMy prediction is that good companies will eventually let you graduate to WFH. Beat the RTO group by X% to win WFH, stay Y% above to retain it. Eventually, the remainder RTO pool will be made up of slackers and people who live nearby. Just adjust X and Y as needed to retain quality employees. The problem is that not all jobs are suited to objective performance metrics. The other problem are the PHBnazi middle managers who are insisting on RTO for personal aggrandizement reasons. They won't always win the day.
- stonethrowaway 2y agoIf your company thinks this lowly of you, imagine what they think about the users.