18 ms·

X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

488 points by pzmarzly 2y ago

thor-rodrigues 2y ago
I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.
- solardev 2y ago
  Must be nice to live in a civilized society like that.
  - Brechreiz 2y ago
    [dead]
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and Germany respectively)
    - baq 2y ago
      Are there any companies who do offer such things, though?
      - dento 2y ago
        When working remotely, you're often allowed to pick between employment and b2b contracts, which is essentially the same thing.
        pimeys 2y ago
        And in countries such as Germany you are legally required to be an employee if you only work for one company. The government will sue the company or if not reachable, they will sue the employee. So deel.com is a usual choice.
    - cr1895 2y ago
      >but we promise of course, who's to say that next quarter priorities of management or shareholders shift & those "promises" evaporate?
      - less_less 2y ago
        Of course you'd want to put those terms in the employment contract, not just a verbal promise. Surely you wouldn't get exactly the same protection as in another country with a completely different legal system, but at least you could get part of it. And yeah, they could terminate the contract, but they would still be bound by its terms that say how they can do that, with how much notice, for what reasons, and how much they will owe you.
        londons_explore 2y ago
        Contract law is strong. If a company deliberately gave the employee lots of rights in an employment contract (in return for less pay), a court would hold the company to that later whilst it was solvent, even if company management later changes it's approach.
- sspiff 2y ago
  I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.
  - fhd2 2y ago
    The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do that, you didn't. Same goes for accepting things that seem unfair via email or verbally, that can weaken your position already. I've been on both sides of the fence (mostly in Germany). As an employer, my approach was usually to be nice to employees I wanted to get rid of and to offer them a good severance package proactively. If you push an employee and give them ammunition to sue (and you fail to fool/bully them) it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Not to mention distracting/emotional. Just keep in mind that if you hire an FTE, you'll have to mentally put money aside to exit them at some point in the future. Hiring freelancers is more expensive, but doesn't carry these problems. I tend to mix FTEs and freelancers, partly to distribute the risks and costs. When talking to people in bad situations with their employer, I'm always surprised how little they know and how easily they're willing to take the short end of the stick. There's a deal between you and the company that specifies what you'll do for them and what you'll get in return, with legal context surrounding it. I think it's also good to be nice and willing to compromise in that situation, but employees generally don't seem to be aware of what a powerful position they're actually in, and don't feel they "deserve" that, or don't want to upset anyone. It's business at the end of the day, contracts. Don't be a bad business person, it's not like CEOs will respect or like you more if you don't put up a fight. Typically the opposite. The lack of these protections is one thing that, IMHO, warrants the comparatively high US salaries in tech. More risk, more reward - business 101 stuff.
- softveda 2y ago
  I am in Australia. We are somewhere in between, not as strong as Germany or Western EU countries but infinitely better than US. When some of us were laid off by a US tech firm in 2023 they had to give us prior notice for consultation and not cut off our access immediately like they did in US. This allowed us a week to understand our rights and find out the mistakes in their offer. They had to go back and come back with a new better offer as per Australian laws. In Australia we have codified National Employment Standards which are strictly enforced. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-employment-standards https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-e...
- perlgeek 2y ago
  BTW in Germany, if a company decides to lay off people just to save money, they have to coordinate with some government agency -- and if the company doesn't have financial trouble, those layoffs can be blocked. This happened to Alphabet/Google when they wanted to lay off 6% of their workforce, but were wildly profitable. They couldn't in Germany. (This probably wouldn't have applied in the Twitter case, because Twitter wasn't profitable, but it illustrates that there are processes and rules around employment that might seem very unusual to others).
  - throw310822 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - GJim 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw310822 2y ago
        Frankly, I am European and I know what I'm talking about. It seems obvious that there is a conflict between protecting workers' rights and giving companies the freedom to decide what's best for them. On the other hand there is a dearth of dynamic and successful startups in Europe and it's hard to imagine that workers protection have nothing to do with it- also because in my own country I have seen countless times excessive workers protections slowly suffocate a company, until both the jobs and the entire business are lost.
        GJim 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - sensanaty 2y ago
      If "innovation" equals firing a quarter of your company at a moment's notice because some psychotic C-level wants 3 cents more of profit this quarter, then I'll take stagnation, thanks.
- GJim 2y ago
  The number of US tech businesses that are surprised they need, or think they can ignore the need, to obey employment and data protection laws when working in other jurisdictions is simply bonkers.
- throwaway_9321 2y ago
  It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still very damaging for the future of our careers. And no laws or unions will protect you from that kind of environment. It's also worth mentioning, with respect to Germany specifically, that there are a lot of anti-worker customs that would make Americans gasp. For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV, the fact that racial discrimination is an open secret even though there are laws against it, the requirement of a reference letter from your previous employer, the glass ceiling that you will encounter frequently unless you are part of the right demographic to break into management ... I could go on. As an employee in Germany, I feel abused and helpless. Most of the laws on the books are not written to protect me. The only thing that really protects people like me is a competitive job market.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >As an employee in Germany, I feel abused and helpless. It's worse in Austria where you have at will employment with a notice period and can be laid off without any reason so many companies can subtly force you to accept a new contract or just get laid off.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    In Germany, every large company is required to have a worker's committee, elected by the employees. They have the ability to block certain kinds of company actions, and negotiate all kinds of policies with the company. They would probably have your back in a situation like the one described in this article.
  - VonGallifrey 2y ago
    > For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV Picture was a requirement, but that is slowly becoming less popular. Especially in Tech. Leave it off if you don't feel like including a Picture. I stopped including a Picture as well some years ago and it has not harmed (or improved) me yet. Which other personal information is required? I would expect contact information and Name. Of course also your Work History and Education. Which personal information do you have a problem with? > the requirement of a reference letter from your previous employer, Yes, they are required to give you a reference letter when you leave the company. Honestly, I have never been asked to provide said letter to my new employer in the 15 Years I have worked in Germany. Most times I don't even have one during the hiring process since I am still working there. So, even if asked about a reference letter, I would just reply that I do not have one. Which, again, has not happened to me yet.
- mywacaday 2y ago
  Ireland has an organisation called the Workplace Relations Commission, anyone can log a complaint against their current or former employer without getting the lawyers involved. The case gets reviewed and if warranted a payment can be required. I believe this case was their highest ever award.
- deleted 2y ago
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- mrmetanoia 2y ago
  My German co-workers have the healthiest relationship with work in the company because it seems they feel empowered to set boundaries. I often wonder if it's a commonality in Germany? It doesn't seem like perfection, they complain about things too, but it seems healthier to a degree from this vantage. And it's amazing how much nonsense they don't have to deal with just because The business will make the Americans do it so as to avoid a works council hassle :P I'd like a works council that makes my management pause before they load me up with extra work on top of my normal tasks. What's sad is the people who get frustrated by the German's not having to deal with the bullshit and instead of thinking "we should have that!" they think "They should NOT have that!" humans are weird.
- thayne 2y ago
  In the US, you usually don't have a work contract. In many states the employer can fire you for any reason except for being a member of a protected class. Or change the terms of working there. In such states, employees can also leave for any reason, but the asymmetry of the power dynamic means the "at will" laws are generally more beneficial to the employer.
singingwolfboy 2y ago
https://archive.ph/Ed2G2 https://archive.ph/Ed2G2
fsloth 2y ago
Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?
- xyst 2y ago
  Welcome to “at-will” employment. On the flip side, this also means an employee can quit at any time.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - playingalong 2y ago
    https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/majorlaws https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/majorlaws
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  From Wikipedia: > In United States labor law, at-will employment is an employer's ability to dismiss an employee for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning,[1] as long as the reason is not illegal (e.g. firing because of the employee's gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or disability status). When an employee is acknowledged as being hired "at will", courts deny the employee any claim for loss resulting from the dismissal.
- DoctorOW 2y ago
  Right to Work laws, despite the name makes pretty much any firing legal. Unless an employer says something like "You are my least favorite race and for that reason I'm firing you" they're in the clear.
  - eadler 2y ago
    "Right to work" is an anti union provision and has nothing to do with being fired. You might be thinking of "at will employment" - which is the case in 49 of 50 states.
ulfw 2y ago
[flagged]
- nebula8804 2y ago
  On the plus side, it is always soothing to see other countries stand up for their citizens. They get the best of both worlds. Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers.
  - Ylpertnodi 2y ago
    >Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get [to] the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers. Thanks for taking one for the team, American workers. Love, Europe. (Much /s for the unironic.)
  - Ylpertnodi 2y ago
    >Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get [to] the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers. Thanks for taking one for the team, American workers. Love, Europe. (Much /s for the unironic.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
hyperman1 2y ago
If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much stronger and personal punishment should be given to anyone who agreed with this way of working.
- r0ckarong 2y ago
  > Musk feels to be above contract law And he hasn't made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he doesn't give a shit about laws, regulations or conventions?
- valenterry 2y ago
  €550k is just the compensation. But for such a behaviour, there should be an actual punishment involved.
  - closewith 2y ago
    Exemplary damages are awarded only in exceptional and extremely rare cases in Ireland, and the WRC (which issued this ruling) cannot levy them.
- xenonite 2y ago
  Well, to me as a European, this feels like a very high number already.
  - emmet 2y ago
    Wages in America must be truly incredible for this to seem normal. I know so many full time developers on a tenth of that.
    - janalsncm 2y ago
      Median wage is only about $50k in the US. Tech compensation is just really high. Also note that salaries are rarely that high even in tech. Usually a big part of compensation is stock grants which are taxed differently.
thih9 2y ago
This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federated.
- seper8 2y ago
  I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    How would you determine if the userbase has grown when by most accounts there has been an explosion in the number of bots while advertising revenue has plummeted by 80%?
  - flohofwoe 2y ago
    > and the userbase has grown Most of those 'users' are probably bots though. The bot activity has increased massively since Musk has bought the company (just look at all the like-bots nobody seems to do anything about).
    - microtonal 2y ago
      Yeah, I get new bot followers nearly every day, this rarely happened in pre-Musk Twitter.
  - ijk 2y ago
    And revenue has dropped through the floor: https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw... https://mashable.com/article/twitter-x-revenue-falls-x-payments-plans https://mashable.com/article/twitter-x-revenue-falls-x-payme...
benreesman 2y ago
It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness. I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.
- amake 2y ago
  > It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days Doesn't seem that hard, tbh
  - benreesman 2y ago
    I’m worried that I might have unintentionally created scope for a flame war. I’d like to invite you to clarify why what seems a difficult topic to me seems a simple one to you? From where I’m sitting it seems nuanced and complicated and involving decades of history. It’s eminently possible that I’m missing key information on this, but I can’t glean a “no-brainer” from the above comment.
    - chgs 2y ago
      It seems the vast majority of people have an opinion on musk, thus it can’t be too hold to have an opinion. This opinion is not nuanced though, because nuance is tricky and requires more effort than simply categorising into a tribal viewpoint
    - Shocka1 2y ago
      I would love to see sentiment analytics of Musk on HN before he came out as a libertarian/moderate/whatever he is and buying Twitter. Between here and Reddit, anecdotally I've noticed the contempt for the man is like night and day compared to 2015-ish. Even comments like your original get downvoted into oblivion lol. I've never really been a fan of him, especially with the diving rescue incident, but my theory is that tribalism has flipped sides.
- 2y ago
5350-uiop-1130 2y ago
it's surprising how often saying nothing works out well.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  when given 2 choices, people always forget the 3rd default choice of doing nothing. Despite many philosophies, "Doing Nothing" in a legal sense cannot be taken as a Yes or No. Maybe they simply never saw the message in time (especially something as time sensitive as 24 hours).
asah 2y ago
Good luck collecting: X is notorious for stiffing on debts.
- inamorty 2y ago
  If they fail to pay they will have their assets seized.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Collecting debts from a delinquent company is generally easier in Ireland than the US.
  - Fordec 2y ago
    There are two Irish state departments that are hyper competent. The IDA and Revenue. This can involve both. I'm not at all worried or the political blowback will see them functionally banned from Europe and an acceleration of the social media regulation and hate speech laws introduction.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      Oh man I almost hope that they try not paying. The consequences will be fun to watch.
- deskr 2y ago
  I'd assume Ireland has something like bailiffs in the UK. Delta tried not paying around £3000 owed to a customer. He got a court order and sent bailiffs who went to the airport, closed the checking and said they were going seize the plane to pay for the debt. There's a good short documentary about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s . This link starts at 320 seconds, where the action starts. Start from the beginning if you want the back story. Spoiler: Delta called the police who explained to them that they were about to pay up or lose the plane. Delta paid up. Actually, the managed used her personal card to pay I'd assume Delta paid her back.
CamelCaseName 2y ago
I think this is one of the very few times I've seen Elon Musk's companies lose a lawsuit. With all the jockeying in the US, I wonder if this is a sign of more, meaningful, legal trouble to come.
- perlgeek 2y ago
  Technically, this was not a lawsuit. It was an enforcement action from the Workplace Relations Commission, and can be appealed in court.
- aniforprez 2y ago
  I'm assuming because a lot of the time when it's clear that he's going to lose, he just pulls out of the case. Just like how he filed paperwork to get out of purchasing twitter but when it became clear that the ruling would be against him, he cancelled it says before it was about to be heard
- eigart 2y ago
  Has he won any significant ones? He’s likely losing his pay package in court and had to buy twitter because his lawsuit wasn’t going anywhere.
maxehmookau 2y ago
Good. The richest man in the world doesn't get to be above the law on account of being rich. If you own a company, that comes with responsibility and if you shirk those responsibilities the law will come for you; as it should.
- redrove 2y ago
  [flagged]
- psychlops 2y ago
  Consider that the commission is also pushing US companies to avoid Ireland.
  - nucleardog 2y ago
    Pushing US companies that don’t follow local laws to not operate there? Something tells me they’d be okay with that.
    - rammer 2y ago
      If you can't fire employees who refuse to perform at the level required or show a commitment for that then it was very right to be fired. The staff member had a choice, agree to an increased level of commitment or decline, he obviously declined. If companies can't decide who stays on or not, then definitely they would be more hesitant to invest / movel locations to Ireland. This will take time and certainly one of the things considered among a thousand others when choosing a location!
      - maxehmookau 2y ago
        The staff member clearly did not have a fair choice. His terms of employment were unilaterally changed in a way deemed to be illegal in Ireland. "Be more hardcore" is not a sensible description of a working environment to anyone but the most hardened of Musk apologists. The law stood up for the employee in this case, as it should. Ireland's tax regime is notoriously kind to tech companies, so I doubt they'll go anywhere.
jongjong 2y ago
[flagged]
- soneil 2y ago
  You can fire, there is a process, and this wasn't it. It's that simple. There is a huge difference between not being able to fire people, and not being able to arbitrarily fire people on the spot.
  - jongjong 2y ago
    The issue is that corporations, with billions of dollars and hundreds of top lawyers at their disposal can always come up with justifications for everything they do.
netcan 2y ago
Fwiw... As a tendency, Irish labour courts tends to find in favour of employees... but also tend to award relatively small compensation. A headline making award is pretty rare. Judge must not be a Twitter fan.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  The judge is biased by social media?
  - nness 2y ago
    It wasn't a court case so they're were no judges, per se. The WRC is a state agency who presides over industrial relations.
- ghnws 2y ago
  More likely that the offense by twatter was more egregious than what the courts are used to.
  - valval 2y ago
    Ah yes, an objective comment by a rational author.
- xeanotods 2y ago
  If it's an illegally biased opinion then presumably it will be overturned on appeal. Otherwise Irish law looks prohibitively business-unfriendly.
  - pests 2y ago
    So business-unfriendly the tax loophole used to be called the Irish double sandwich.
    - jen20 2y ago
      “Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich” is the name!
deleted 2y ago
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neilv 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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rammer 2y ago
[flagged]
- OtomotO 2y ago
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- jkbbwr 2y ago
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- tchbnl 2y ago
  You're right, Ireland doesn't deserve that trash fire.
- j16sdiz 2y ago
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- TrackerFF 2y ago
  You can hire and fire, but you'll have to follow local laws. Sorry, but bozos like Musk bank on being able to bend the rules, and changing the system. They're used to operating in places with either lax laws, or where enforcing the laws is too cumbersome, and think it same applies everywhere else. Then they come to countries with rock solid workers rights and completely different cultures, act like clowns, and wonder why they're getting shot down in court.
netbioserror 2y ago
[flagged]

488 points by pzmarzly 2y ago

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

solardev 2y ago
Must be nice to live in a civilized society like that.
- Brechreiz 2y ago
  [dead]
surgical_fire 2y ago
It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary. Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice. (And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and Germany respectively)
  - baq 2y ago
    Are there any companies who do offer such things, though?
    - dento 2y ago
      When working remotely, you're often allowed to pick between employment and b2b contracts, which is essentially the same thing.
      - pimeys 2y ago
        And in countries such as Germany you are legally required to be an employee if you only work for one company. The government will sue the company or if not reachable, they will sue the employee. So deel.com is a usual choice.
  - cr1895 2y ago
    >but we promise of course, who's to say that next quarter priorities of management or shareholders shift & those "promises" evaporate?
    - less_less 2y ago
      Of course you'd want to put those terms in the employment contract, not just a verbal promise. Surely you wouldn't get exactly the same protection as in another country with a completely different legal system, but at least you could get part of it. And yeah, they could terminate the contract, but they would still be bound by its terms that say how they can do that, with how much notice, for what reasons, and how much they will owe you.
      - londons_explore 2y ago
        Contract law is strong. If a company deliberately gave the employee lots of rights in an employment contract (in return for less pay), a court would hold the company to that later whilst it was solvent, even if company management later changes it's approach.
sspiff 2y ago
I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.
- fhd2 2y ago
  The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do that, you didn't. Same goes for accepting things that seem unfair via email or verbally, that can weaken your position already. I've been on both sides of the fence (mostly in Germany). As an employer, my approach was usually to be nice to employees I wanted to get rid of and to offer them a good severance package proactively. If you push an employee and give them ammunition to sue (and you fail to fool/bully them) it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Not to mention distracting/emotional. Just keep in mind that if you hire an FTE, you'll have to mentally put money aside to exit them at some point in the future. Hiring freelancers is more expensive, but doesn't carry these problems. I tend to mix FTEs and freelancers, partly to distribute the risks and costs. When talking to people in bad situations with their employer, I'm always surprised how little they know and how easily they're willing to take the short end of the stick. There's a deal between you and the company that specifies what you'll do for them and what you'll get in return, with legal context surrounding it. I think it's also good to be nice and willing to compromise in that situation, but employees generally don't seem to be aware of what a powerful position they're actually in, and don't feel they "deserve" that, or don't want to upset anyone. It's business at the end of the day, contracts. Don't be a bad business person, it's not like CEOs will respect or like you more if you don't put up a fight. Typically the opposite. The lack of these protections is one thing that, IMHO, warrants the comparatively high US salaries in tech. More risk, more reward - business 101 stuff.
softveda 2y ago
I am in Australia. We are somewhere in between, not as strong as Germany or Western EU countries but infinitely better than US. When some of us were laid off by a US tech firm in 2023 they had to give us prior notice for consultation and not cut off our access immediately like they did in US. This allowed us a week to understand our rights and find out the mistakes in their offer. They had to go back and come back with a new better offer as per Australian laws. In Australia we have codified National Employment Standards which are strictly enforced. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-employment-standards https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/national-e...
perlgeek 2y ago
BTW in Germany, if a company decides to lay off people just to save money, they have to coordinate with some government agency -- and if the company doesn't have financial trouble, those layoffs can be blocked. This happened to Alphabet/Google when they wanted to lay off 6% of their workforce, but were wildly profitable. They couldn't in Germany. (This probably wouldn't have applied in the Twitter case, because Twitter wasn't profitable, but it illustrates that there are processes and rules around employment that might seem very unusual to others).
- throw310822 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - GJim 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw310822 2y ago
      Frankly, I am European and I know what I'm talking about. It seems obvious that there is a conflict between protecting workers' rights and giving companies the freedom to decide what's best for them. On the other hand there is a dearth of dynamic and successful startups in Europe and it's hard to imagine that workers protection have nothing to do with it- also because in my own country I have seen countless times excessive workers protections slowly suffocate a company, until both the jobs and the entire business are lost.
      - GJim 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    If "innovation" equals firing a quarter of your company at a moment's notice because some psychotic C-level wants 3 cents more of profit this quarter, then I'll take stagnation, thanks.
GJim 2y ago
The number of US tech businesses that are surprised they need, or think they can ignore the need, to obey employment and data protection laws when working in other jurisdictions is simply bonkers.
throwaway_9321 2y ago
It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still very damaging for the future of our careers. And no laws or unions will protect you from that kind of environment. It's also worth mentioning, with respect to Germany specifically, that there are a lot of anti-worker customs that would make Americans gasp. For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV, the fact that racial discrimination is an open secret even though there are laws against it, the requirement of a reference letter from your previous employer, the glass ceiling that you will encounter frequently unless you are part of the right demographic to break into management ... I could go on. As an employee in Germany, I feel abused and helpless. Most of the laws on the books are not written to protect me. The only thing that really protects people like me is a competitive job market.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >As an employee in Germany, I feel abused and helpless. It's worse in Austria where you have at will employment with a notice period and can be laid off without any reason so many companies can subtly force you to accept a new contract or just get laid off.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  In Germany, every large company is required to have a worker's committee, elected by the employees. They have the ability to block certain kinds of company actions, and negotiate all kinds of policies with the company. They would probably have your back in a situation like the one described in this article.
- VonGallifrey 2y ago
  > For example, the quasi-requirement of having pictures and other personal information on your CV Picture was a requirement, but that is slowly becoming less popular. Especially in Tech. Leave it off if you don't feel like including a Picture. I stopped including a Picture as well some years ago and it has not harmed (or improved) me yet. Which other personal information is required? I would expect contact information and Name. Of course also your Work History and Education. Which personal information do you have a problem with? > the requirement of a reference letter from your previous employer, Yes, they are required to give you a reference letter when you leave the company. Honestly, I have never been asked to provide said letter to my new employer in the 15 Years I have worked in Germany. Most times I don't even have one during the hiring process since I am still working there. So, even if asked about a reference letter, I would just reply that I do not have one. Which, again, has not happened to me yet.
mywacaday 2y ago
Ireland has an organisation called the Workplace Relations Commission, anyone can log a complaint against their current or former employer without getting the lawyers involved. The case gets reviewed and if warranted a payment can be required. I believe this case was their highest ever award.
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mrmetanoia 2y ago
My German co-workers have the healthiest relationship with work in the company because it seems they feel empowered to set boundaries. I often wonder if it's a commonality in Germany? It doesn't seem like perfection, they complain about things too, but it seems healthier to a degree from this vantage. And it's amazing how much nonsense they don't have to deal with just because The business will make the Americans do it so as to avoid a works council hassle :P I'd like a works council that makes my management pause before they load me up with extra work on top of my normal tasks. What's sad is the people who get frustrated by the German's not having to deal with the bullshit and instead of thinking "we should have that!" they think "They should NOT have that!" humans are weird.
thayne 2y ago
In the US, you usually don't have a work contract. In many states the employer can fire you for any reason except for being a member of a protected class. Or change the terms of working there. In such states, employees can also leave for any reason, but the asymmetry of the power dynamic means the "at will" laws are generally more beneficial to the employer.

singingwolfboy 2y ago

https://archive.ph/Ed2G2 https://archive.ph/Ed2G2

fsloth 2y ago

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

xyst 2y ago
Welcome to “at-will” employment. On the flip side, this also means an employee can quit at any time.
nebula8804 2y ago
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- playingalong 2y ago
  https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/majorlaws https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/majorlaws
surgical_fire 2y ago
From Wikipedia: > In United States labor law, at-will employment is an employer's ability to dismiss an employee for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning,[1] as long as the reason is not illegal (e.g. firing because of the employee's gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or disability status). When an employee is acknowledged as being hired "at will", courts deny the employee any claim for loss resulting from the dismissal.
DoctorOW 2y ago
Right to Work laws, despite the name makes pretty much any firing legal. Unless an employer says something like "You are my least favorite race and for that reason I'm firing you" they're in the clear.
- eadler 2y ago
  "Right to work" is an anti union provision and has nothing to do with being fired. You might be thinking of "at will employment" - which is the case in 49 of 50 states.

ulfw 2y ago

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nebula8804 2y ago
On the plus side, it is always soothing to see other countries stand up for their citizens. They get the best of both worlds. Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  >Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get [to] the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers. Thanks for taking one for the team, American workers. Love, Europe. (Much /s for the unironic.)
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  >Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get [to] the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers. Thanks for taking one for the team, American workers. Love, Europe. (Much /s for the unironic.)
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hyperman1 2y ago

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much stronger and personal punishment should be given to anyone who agreed with this way of working.

r0ckarong 2y ago
> Musk feels to be above contract law And he hasn't made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he doesn't give a shit about laws, regulations or conventions?
valenterry 2y ago
€550k is just the compensation. But for such a behaviour, there should be an actual punishment involved.
- closewith 2y ago
  Exemplary damages are awarded only in exceptional and extremely rare cases in Ireland, and the WRC (which issued this ruling) cannot levy them.
xenonite 2y ago
Well, to me as a European, this feels like a very high number already.
- emmet 2y ago
  Wages in America must be truly incredible for this to seem normal. I know so many full time developers on a tenth of that.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    Median wage is only about $50k in the US. Tech compensation is just really high. Also note that salaries are rarely that high even in tech. Usually a big part of compensation is stock grants which are taxed differently.

thih9 2y ago

This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs. It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network. I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federated.

seper8 2y ago
I think you should look at the facts and that is that X is both way more in the media than before - both in a good and a bad way - and the userbase has grown while a significant portion of operational expenses have been cut.
- XorNot 2y ago
  How would you determine if the userbase has grown when by most accounts there has been an explosion in the number of bots while advertising revenue has plummeted by 80%?
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  > and the userbase has grown Most of those 'users' are probably bots though. The bot activity has increased massively since Musk has bought the company (just look at all the like-bots nobody seems to do anything about).
  - microtonal 2y ago
    Yeah, I get new bot followers nearly every day, this rarely happened in pre-Musk Twitter.
- ijk 2y ago
  And revenue has dropped through the floor: https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-twitter-x-advertiser-boycott-finances-bradford-ferguson/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/15/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale-tw... https://mashable.com/article/twitter-x-revenue-falls-x-payments-plans https://mashable.com/article/twitter-x-revenue-falls-x-payme...

benreesman 2y ago

It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days. At a surface level he’s acting a real asshole in a bunch of ways, but he’s surprised us with some seriously useful stuff on a number of occasions and so I’m always still hoping that there’s got to be a method to the madness. I sure hope there is because the guy is in the running for most powerful man in history.

amake 2y ago
> It’s really hard to know what to think about Elon Musk these days Doesn't seem that hard, tbh
- benreesman 2y ago
  I’m worried that I might have unintentionally created scope for a flame war. I’d like to invite you to clarify why what seems a difficult topic to me seems a simple one to you? From where I’m sitting it seems nuanced and complicated and involving decades of history. It’s eminently possible that I’m missing key information on this, but I can’t glean a “no-brainer” from the above comment.
  - chgs 2y ago
    It seems the vast majority of people have an opinion on musk, thus it can’t be too hold to have an opinion. This opinion is not nuanced though, because nuance is tricky and requires more effort than simply categorising into a tribal viewpoint
  - Shocka1 2y ago
    I would love to see sentiment analytics of Musk on HN before he came out as a libertarian/moderate/whatever he is and buying Twitter. Between here and Reddit, anecdotally I've noticed the contempt for the man is like night and day compared to 2015-ish. Even comments like your original get downvoted into oblivion lol. I've never really been a fan of him, especially with the diving rescue incident, but my theory is that tribalism has flipped sides.
2y ago

5350-uiop-1130 2y ago

it's surprising how often saying nothing works out well.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
when given 2 choices, people always forget the 3rd default choice of doing nothing. Despite many philosophies, "Doing Nothing" in a legal sense cannot be taken as a Yes or No. Maybe they simply never saw the message in time (especially something as time sensitive as 24 hours).

asah 2y ago

Good luck collecting: X is notorious for stiffing on debts.

inamorty 2y ago
If they fail to pay they will have their assets seized.
rsynnott 2y ago
Collecting debts from a delinquent company is generally easier in Ireland than the US.
- Fordec 2y ago
  There are two Irish state departments that are hyper competent. The IDA and Revenue. This can involve both. I'm not at all worried or the political blowback will see them functionally banned from Europe and an acceleration of the social media regulation and hate speech laws introduction.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    Oh man I almost hope that they try not paying. The consequences will be fun to watch.
deskr 2y ago
I'd assume Ireland has something like bailiffs in the UK. Delta tried not paying around £3000 owed to a customer. He got a court order and sent bailiffs who went to the airport, closed the checking and said they were going seize the plane to pay for the debt. There's a good short documentary about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QSj9odUD_c&t=320s . This link starts at 320 seconds, where the action starts. Start from the beginning if you want the back story. Spoiler: Delta called the police who explained to them that they were about to pay up or lose the plane. Delta paid up. Actually, the managed used her personal card to pay I'd assume Delta paid her back.

CamelCaseName 2y ago

I think this is one of the very few times I've seen Elon Musk's companies lose a lawsuit. With all the jockeying in the US, I wonder if this is a sign of more, meaningful, legal trouble to come.

perlgeek 2y ago
Technically, this was not a lawsuit. It was an enforcement action from the Workplace Relations Commission, and can be appealed in court.
aniforprez 2y ago
I'm assuming because a lot of the time when it's clear that he's going to lose, he just pulls out of the case. Just like how he filed paperwork to get out of purchasing twitter but when it became clear that the ruling would be against him, he cancelled it says before it was about to be heard
eigart 2y ago
Has he won any significant ones? He’s likely losing his pay package in court and had to buy twitter because his lawsuit wasn’t going anywhere.

maxehmookau 2y ago

Good. The richest man in the world doesn't get to be above the law on account of being rich. If you own a company, that comes with responsibility and if you shirk those responsibilities the law will come for you; as it should.

redrove 2y ago
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psychlops 2y ago
Consider that the commission is also pushing US companies to avoid Ireland.
- nucleardog 2y ago
  Pushing US companies that don’t follow local laws to not operate there? Something tells me they’d be okay with that.
  - rammer 2y ago
    If you can't fire employees who refuse to perform at the level required or show a commitment for that then it was very right to be fired. The staff member had a choice, agree to an increased level of commitment or decline, he obviously declined. If companies can't decide who stays on or not, then definitely they would be more hesitant to invest / movel locations to Ireland. This will take time and certainly one of the things considered among a thousand others when choosing a location!
    - maxehmookau 2y ago
      The staff member clearly did not have a fair choice. His terms of employment were unilaterally changed in a way deemed to be illegal in Ireland. "Be more hardcore" is not a sensible description of a working environment to anyone but the most hardened of Musk apologists. The law stood up for the employee in this case, as it should. Ireland's tax regime is notoriously kind to tech companies, so I doubt they'll go anywhere.

jongjong 2y ago

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soneil 2y ago
You can fire, there is a process, and this wasn't it. It's that simple. There is a huge difference between not being able to fire people, and not being able to arbitrarily fire people on the spot.
- jongjong 2y ago
  The issue is that corporations, with billions of dollars and hundreds of top lawyers at their disposal can always come up with justifications for everything they do.

netcan 2y ago

Fwiw... As a tendency, Irish labour courts tends to find in favour of employees... but also tend to award relatively small compensation. A headline making award is pretty rare. Judge must not be a Twitter fan.

paulddraper 2y ago
The judge is biased by social media?
- nness 2y ago
  It wasn't a court case so they're were no judges, per se. The WRC is a state agency who presides over industrial relations.
ghnws 2y ago
More likely that the offense by twatter was more egregious than what the courts are used to.
- valval 2y ago
  Ah yes, an objective comment by a rational author.
xeanotods 2y ago
If it's an illegally biased opinion then presumably it will be overturned on appeal. Otherwise Irish law looks prohibitively business-unfriendly.
- pests 2y ago
  So business-unfriendly the tax loophole used to be called the Irish double sandwich.
  - jen20 2y ago
    “Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich” is the name!

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neilv 2y ago

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rammer 2y ago

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OtomotO 2y ago
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jkbbwr 2y ago
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tchbnl 2y ago
You're right, Ireland doesn't deserve that trash fire.
j16sdiz 2y ago
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TrackerFF 2y ago
You can hire and fire, but you'll have to follow local laws. Sorry, but bozos like Musk bank on being able to bend the rules, and changing the system. They're used to operating in places with either lax laws, or where enforcing the laws is too cumbersome, and think it same applies everywhere else. Then they come to countries with rock solid workers rights and completely different cultures, act like clowns, and wonder why they're getting shot down in court.

netbioserror 2y ago

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