21 ms·

Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

254 points by voisin 2y ago

thr0waway001 2y ago
Ya listening Canada? This is how it’s done.
- Izikiel43 2y ago
  Canada needs to relax their zoning policies a lot and build a ton more buildings. People mostly want to be in one of 3 destinations in Canada: * Vancouver * Toronto * Montreal Which is where high paying jobs are, and which are mostly zoned for houses.
- LegitShady 2y ago
  canada has no way to outbuild its insane immigration numbers. Airbnb being eliminated would be great and I approve, but I do not think it will substantially affect the housing market.
hombre_fatal 2y ago
It's a short term authoritarian bandaid that doesn't even help that many people, all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future. We should go the asian route of increasing density and size. It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border.
- shoulderfake 2y ago
  Have you been to Barcelona? You can't put any more shit than there already is.
- othello 2y ago
  Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe. https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-population#:~:text=The%20city%20proper%20has%20a,s%20most%20densely%20populated%20cities https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-pop....
  - hombre_fatal 2y ago
    It's 67th in the world and less dense than 11 French cities, though not a great comparison because most of those are small cities. But just because it's in the top 100 doesn't mean it's maxed out. It still has 5000/sqkm fewer people than Paris. Nor does it mean this trade off for a measly 10,000 flats is worth it in such a large city.
    - Detrytus 2y ago
      Please, the densities seen at the top of that list are really inhumane, more like prison camps than cities. Also, increasing density might be easy if you demolish 100 single family homes to build 10 five-stories buildings, but replacing Barcelona's 5-6 stories blocks with 10-stories ones isn't going to be economically viable. And if some brave developer tries this, then the resulting apartments won't be cheap.
- lbwtaylor 2y ago
  It's just basic urban planning and zoning. You can't run a factory in your apartment and you can't run a hotel. Plenty of cities restrict where hotels can operate. This is nothing special and certainly not authoritarian. These measures are quite popular because, shocking, people in residential neighborhoods like have real neighbors rather than hotel guests.
  - hombre_fatal 2y ago
    Yes, obviously everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in somewhere, that's why they support these sorts of policies that foment resentment. NIMBYism also stifles most development in the US. But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. Giving these 10k flats to locals isn't going to put a dent in the housing economy.
    - stavros 2y ago
      If you think zoning is authoritarian, you also think a bunch of normal, everyday measures are authoritarian.
    - edoloughlin 2y ago
      > But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. If this thread continues for a few more levels, I think you’ll end up justifying hiring your own private police force. Ownership requires that a state exists to enforce your rights. There are tradeoffs with this arrangement, one of which is that the state gets to set boundaries/limits on how you can use the thing you own. Ideally, acting with the best interests of the population. This sometimes includes ensuring areas are off limits to transient inhabitants so that a society can develop.
    - happytoexplain 2y ago
      > everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in This is uncharitable. What everybody wants is for the place they call home, either by inheritance or hard work, to not be harmed by overdevelopment. People will have varyingly (un)reasonable opinions on what "over" means, but even a place with zero development has new residents - people do not live in one place forever, nor do they live forever.
- zrn900 2y ago
  > It's a short term authoritarian bandaid That's unintelligible. With that logic, every law and regulation is authoritarian. > all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future Here's the resentment: https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u... And yes, the locals want more authoritarianism to keep away the overcrowding tourists, rich foreigners, and people who think like you. That's what the problem needs and what people like you understand.
  - dang 2y ago
    Please make your substantive points without swipes (like "that's unintelligible" and "people like you"). This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Edit: yikes, you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly and badly—examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 We have to ban accounts that keep doing this, so please stop doing this, and please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle. (I suppose I should add the standard disclaimer that no, we don't care about your views. We care about your following the rules and using the site as intended, same as with any other user.)
    - zrn900 2y ago
      Under this post and in every single post you referenced, people are taking the largest swipes at entire countries, even peoples/races without any repercussions. > please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle All the threads you referenced are filled with people using the site in a political and ideological manner. There are people who are literally doing propaganda against entire countries and people. > no, we don't care about your views If you don't care about the views of the users, don't care about them in an egalitarian way. So far the rules seem to be getting applied selectively. > We have to ban accounts that keep doing this Feel free to do so. I'll get me coat myself. No need to contribute to a platform that not only does not care about its users' views but also applies its rules selectively and in an exceptionalist manner.
- diggan 2y ago
  > It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border The city of Barcelona quite literally is fully developed border to border. Or where are you suggesting these new developments are gonna be made?
- permalac 2y ago
  There is a democratic process on which tourists don't participate. I think this working as it should.
deutschepost 2y ago
Good. Tourists should sleep in hotels and locals should sleep in their flats. Platforms like AirBnB only put oil in the fire when it comes to housing crises.
- popcalc 2y ago
  Alternatively, the population practicing birth control could solve the crisis. Don't have kids if you don't own at least one home :)
  - utensil4778 2y ago
    "Poor people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that will fix our problems"
    - popcalc 2y ago
      You're allowed to ruin your children's lives, no doubt about that.
      - twixfel 2y ago
        Better to be alive, though, than simply never born in order to protect airbnb, as you would prefer.
    - dindobre 2y ago
      It's not even poor people, in some "advanced economies" we're getting to a point where income means very little, and inheriting means a lot. I've only seen such a lack of empathy in teenagers or silver spoons.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    Who do you think is going to do the work every facet of your life requires?
    - popcalc 2y ago
shoulderfake 2y ago
[dead]
lucasfcosta 2y ago
Honest question: does this work? It seems to me that this change will have unintended effects and will fail to produce the desired results. AFAIK rent in NYC hasn’t gone down since they changed their short-term rental regulations. I might be naive, but I’d assume that the solution is to build more housing to increase the supply instead of curbing the demand? Genuinely curious about others’ takes on this.
- kachapopopow 2y ago
  The problem is that residents leave entire areas of the city since they become empty. Foot traffic drops, local shops close - a non ending cycle of death.
- cheeze 2y ago
  I'm far from an expert but I'd think it would drive tourism prices up due to less supply of STR housing (which could harm a local economy, although a behemoth like Barcelona probably isn't super concerned here) Prices may not go down on rents, but if it means that more folks who actually _want to live in the city_ can, I see that as a positive. I can see in NY the case where decrease in housing leads to folks being priced out and moving elsewhere (NJ, etc.) Obviously not speaking with any data here.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Everyone wants lower housing prices, except for the house they currently own.
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      People who own a home, and don't have plans to move, would benefit from housing prices falling everywhere: property taxes go down, and other prices correlated with housing go down. Two categories where people don't want pricing to go down: If you have plans to move and prices aren't falling everywhere, the proceeds of a sale aren't enough to buy elsewhere. And if your bank owns the home rather than you, falling prices screw you over because you owe far more to the bank than you could make by selling.
meow_mix 2y ago
Will this actually change anything? Curious if folks will just create a black market for these instead (this is basically how ny works)
- theragra 2y ago
  I have no data, but experience from many other cases shows that economics will take what it wants. Scenarios I can imagine: 1. Black market, which will hurt tourists and locals alike 2. These flats rented to digital nomads instead 3. These flats sold instead, and will be bought buy some hedge funds who will just wait for price appreciation and still asking hight rent But most plausible scenario is mix of the above plus something unexpected and bad
  - zrn900 2y ago
    > experience from many other cases shows that economics will take what it wants No such thing. Regulations work. > Scenarios No need to 'imagine' things. Wherever they implemented regulations here, they worked. From rent control to airbnb bans. Regulations work as long as you enforce them.
adolph 2y ago
Barcelona seems wonderfully experimental in its governance. Iirc they also tested herbal decriminalization and developed new learning. I wonder what will be learned from this foray into property controls? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/catalonia-cracks-down-booming-marijuana-industry-2023-06-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/catalonia-cracks-down-b...
nvegater 2y ago
A lot of People in “colder” countries with higher purchasing power (specially in Europe) still want to move to Barcelona now that they can work remotely. I wonder how this fact affects the prices compared to tourism apartments.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > A lot of People in “colder” countries with higher purchasing power (specially in Europe) still want to move to Barcelona now that they can work remotely. That's less and less true. And of those who actually moved to Barcelona, some already left (and companies too) when the independentists started being openly hostile to anything non-catalan. Why someone with the means to do what is called "geographical arbitrage" would pick Barcelona is totally beyond me.
- AequitasOmnibus 2y ago
  That sounds a lot like all the homeowners in California that have sold their significantly overvalued homes for 7 figures to move to states where real estate is a fraction of the cost. Generally it’s considered to be a factor in home price inflation in those cheaper states.
- albertopv 2y ago
  I doubt it, given increasing extreme heat waves hitting Spain much more than "colder" countries.
darknavi 2y ago
Well I certainly how it works well for them. It's a terrible feeling to feel like you're getting priced out of your own home. We stayed in a few different week-long AirBnBs (or some other rental service) in 2019 in Barcelona and loved it. Although, and this could be a big source of the problem, both people we met up with to get keys were not Spanish and specifically asked if we could speak French or German instead.
sn_master 2y ago
Good. Dublin should follow next.
grecy 2y ago
This will be an excellent case study that the rest of the world can watch and learn from. Does it have the desired impact? Are there unintended consequences? We can all speculate till the sun goes down about what we think is going to happen, now we're going to get real data. This is great. Even if the outcomes are "bad", they can just undo this is ~5 years. At least we will have all learned from it.
JackYoustra 2y ago
People will do literally anything over building enough housing to make everyone happy
- smegger001 2y ago
  building more devalues their assets. we are creating artificial scarcity of a basic human need because we turned it into a financial investment vehicle.
- distances 2y ago
  Helsinki is currently an interesting case, technically having oversupply of apartments. It's because the rising interest rates cratered the buyers' budgets -- the result is a mild downward trend in prices, definitely no crash. Building companies sit on a large supply on finished unsold apartments but steadfastly refuse to lower prices even a bit. New construction has halted completely. Seems like the construction sector will rather hold their finished stock and wait for the demand side to pick up due to necessity (people still move in to the city), or due to interest rates eventually going down.
  - fh973 2y ago
    Building companies don't own the apartments, banks do. Lower effective prices means writing off debt.
    - distances 2y ago
      Not in Finland. Each housing complex is a separate company, and when you buy an apartment you actually buy a share in the company. Until sold to the buyers, the housing company is usually owned by the construction company. Banks of course provide funding, but the construction company is the one left holding the bag if the apartments don't sell.
  - pembrook 2y ago
    “Oversupply” is in the eye of the beholder. There’s a market clearing price for everything. The builders can hold out for a while, but the shoe has to drop eventually. Builders only make profit when building, and if your credit is extended on old projects you can’t start new ones, hence why construction has halted. The problem is covid. Pretty much everyone in any developed economy believes the inflation+interest rate increases will be temporary. So they’re betting inflation will go back to what it was, interest rate policy will loosen again, and people’s budgets will increase again. I think they might be in for a very rude awakening. And not only that, housing preferences for the highest income professionals have fundamentally changed due to WFH. They could all get stuck dumping the wrong stock on a weak market all at the same time in a year or so.
SeanAnderson 2y ago
Barcelona has a population of ~1.7 million. The metro area surrounding is ~5.7 million. The metro area grew by ~100k in the past four years. They are freeing up ~10,000 houses over the next four years with this legislation. Barcelona built ~15,000 new properties between 2011 and 2020. The math don't math. It's a drop in the bucket. The entire impact of AirBnB + all housing built in the last decade does not offset the last half decade of population growth. Housing must be built more quickly than your population is growing to keep prices down, or you must concede that you live in a nice area where people wealthier than you wish to be and that those people are going to gentrify the area and displace locals. It's an unpleasant reality of the world. EDIT: some good feedback in the responses. thanks! I'm being a bit dramatic by saying it's just a drop in the bucket, this action frees up more housing than was built over the same timespan, and it's possible to have effects on pricing greater than what would be inferred by the raw numbers because economics is tricky. cheers.
- switch007 2y ago
  Politicians being politicians. Seems like each Mayor recently likes to distract everyone and blame the city's housing problem mostly on tourism. Which is easy to do as the city gets a huge number of visitors
- isaacremuant 2y ago
  It's demagogy and it works.
  - jupp0r 2y ago
    The term is populism.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  For what it’s worth, it’s a little closer than your numbers imply. The city averages 2.51 people per household, so now they just need 75k more houses. https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/city-council/record-number-of-inhabitants-in-barcelona-1663530-people_975363.html https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/city-council...
wslh 2y ago
Bye bye to the great experience of living in Barcelona like a local for months. How will they limit temporal renting? Where is the limit line? Should you be a resident in the age of remote working?
- Frieren 2y ago
  You can still rent an apartment for months. It is going to be probably cheaper and as a tenant you will have legal protections that AirBnB users do not have. > How will they limit temporal renting Like any other illegal activity. My best guess is that the police will act when neighbors complain about noise or other nuisances. The fact that it is illegal will make easy to evict the occupants and fine the owner.
  - wslh 2y ago
    You didn't answer my question, just trolled it: what is the line between being a tourist apartment and/or a remote work apartment if you want to rent one for two weeks? How will you separate it into two types?
    - diggan 2y ago
      > You didn't answer my question, just trolled it: what is the line between being a tourist apartment and/or a remote work apartment if you want to rent one for two weeks? If you don't work and you just visit for leisure, you're a tourist. If you're planning to rent an apartment for short-term remote work, you'll need to be a resident, and you'll have a short-term contract where at least your resident number is put as well (and don't forget to pay taxes on the income you earn while in the country too). So I guess leisure vs work is the line you're looking for is.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  I've understood that the lines were already drawn a long time ago. The short-term rentals discussed here are limited to 31 days. Normal long-term rentals are intended for stays of 1+ years. Between those two, there are temporary rental contracts intended for stays measured in months. I've understood that those contracts must include the specific reason of stay, as a measure to prevent abuse.
jmyeet 2y ago
I honestly think we need: 1. To outlaw AirBnB. Except if people are staying in your house while you're there. Other than that, it should be illegal; 2. 80% Capital Gains Tax on property sales other than your primary residence, withheld at source. 3. Withold 40% of rent income at source, which can only be credited against taxable income in the state and country; and 4. Tax non-primary residences at 2% of their market value every year in addition to any property taxes; and 5. If landlords want out, let the state buy them out and use those properties for affordable housing for all citizens. The UK previously came "dangerously" close to eliminating landlords this way last century [1]. EDIT: another big one: 6. Ban HOAs. Entirely. They are anachronism invented to enforce segregation. Any function they perform (eg picking up trash, tending communal parks) is and should be the function of local government, which is democratic. HOAs are not. Lastly, the one exception I would carve out is for multi-families and ADUs (accessory dwelling units). These were once commonplace but are now prohibited in most of the US. Just like renting out a room in your house while you're there, ADUs mean the landlord is also affected by any potential misdeeds or abuse by the tenant so is invested in that not happening. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-landlords-surprisingly-simple-solution-to-uk-housing-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-...
- Izikiel43 2y ago
  So, basically, make landownership practically illegal except for primary housing?
  - jmyeet 2y ago
    It's really about ending real estate as a vehicle of creating generational wealth, an end to real estate speculation. At most, real estate should be an income generator, not a speculative asset. There is so much wrong with real estate as a speculative asset. It leads us to create policies to limit housing (because existing owners have their assets increase in value). The problem with this idea is that money has to come from somewhere. All we're doing is stealing from the next generation. It's a massive wealth transfer from the young to the old and wealthy. Housing is a necessity. It should not be withheld from people for the sake of investment gains. Homelessness is primarily caused by unaffordable housing. People don't like the externalities this creates but they simply want to move those people away so they don't have to see them when the solution is as simple as giving them housing. Well, not entirely, but that gets you 90% of the way there. Withholding shelter in the wealthiest nation the Earth has ever seen is unjustifiable state violence.
currymj 2y ago
being a tourist destination seems to me almost like a resource curse, like oil wealth can be in certain countries. tourism can be so lucrative that it is actually profitable to force out normal people and completely reorient the economy away from all other productive activities. eventually large parts of the city will become totally stagnant, but this doesn't seem to stop tourists from coming. there's often a constituency of people who are really benefiting from tourism (property owners, tour operators, restaurants) and who form a powerful bloc opposed to any restrictions or taxes. it really seems quite similar to an economy where natural resource profits drive everything, it's impossible to get any other industries off the ground or make enough money to live in any other way.
- dindobre 2y ago
  You nailed it with the resource curse.
- matwood 2y ago
  I grew up and live in a city that's often top of the list for tourist destinations and where people are moving to. It is a great city, but it's also a curse with so many people here and more every day. Many of the things I used to do for fun are no longer feasible/easy to do. But, more jobs also came and property values have gone way up - both items are/were good for me.
- zrn900 2y ago
  Tourism is lucrative only for a handful of major tourism corporations/agencies, a few local businesses/shops that can cater to locals, and a few among the locals who can use their real estate for things like airbnb. Only 6% of Spaniards have more than one house. So only 6% of them could actually benefit from this situation even if airbnb was a good thing. The reality of the matter is that what's happening in Barcelona ended up resembling more a colonization when tourism got combined with golden visas that allow rich foreigners and investment funds to scoop up local housing and the recent digital nomad wave. There are now more foreigners in the city center than locals and you are hard pressed to hear Spanish or Catalan being spoken around the place. "I was born and raised in Barcelona, no longer live there however. I didn't remember how bad it was until I went to visit my family last summer. Me and some friends went to walk around the center and the girl that took our orders at a Pans&Company didn't even know Spanish or Catalan, only English. It was honestly quite depressing. She was surprised we didn't open the conversation with English." https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/k...
salamo 2y ago
Hostels and hotels are strictly better in my opinion. I stayed in a hostel in Barcelona. A group of us went to a football game and had a great time.
- nmeofthestate 2y ago
  I stayed in a hostel on my first Barcelona visit and it was economical, but I'd not use one again - too Spartan, not enough privacy. Good choice for young gregarious backpacker types though.
visarga 2y ago
I like AirBNB especially for housing me in a regular apartment with more local vibe, won't travel to Barcelona again because I hate hotels for being too impersonal, there are other places that don't close up to visit. I respect their choice, I also prefer tourism on my own terms. Taxing short term rentals to build affordable housing seems like a good idea to me.
switch007 2y ago
Ada Colau yapped about Airbnb too. She was Mayoress for 8 years. And the problem seems to only be worse Maybe it's a bigger problem than Airbnb?
codemac 2y ago
This sounds silly. 70% is ~5.4% yearly, 40% is 3.4% growth yearly. Seems, fine? These are incredibly reasonable growth rates. Am I missing something?
- codemac 2y ago
  For comparison, 2012-2019 in SF was 88% growth over 7 years, or >9% year over year growth.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- verteu 2y ago
  You are missing that Spain's economy is not growing like the USA's. Spanish wages grew only 2.7%/yr L10Y [1], and its nominal GDP/capita looks completely flat [2]. This explains why the city is affordable for international tourists but not locals. Regardless, a high "tourist tax" would probably be better for their economy than an outright ban. [1] https://www.ine.es/jaxiT3/Tabla.htm?t=59150 https://www.ine.es/jaxiT3/Tabla.htm?t=59150 [2] Compare https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=spain+gdp+per+capita+10+years+ago https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=spain+gdp+per+capita+10... vs https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=USA+gdp+per+capita+10+years+ago https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=USA+gdp+per+capita+10+y...
  - codemac 2y ago
    At 2.7% that's 2.7% and .7% growth faster than wages. Let's look at the bay's wage growth[0]: 11% (or ~1%/yr) from 2010-2020, but they removed CPI-U inflation[1], so it's something higher (annual was ~1-3% in that time period). Which puts the bay area housing at 5%+ higher growth, 2x to 7x worse than Spain. So, once again - Spain is doing well when it comes to housing prices. Tourism frustrates locals because they think it's increased their housing costs wildly - but in fact it's because their economy is switching to a tourist economy unless they find an industry to grow. [0]: https://bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/income-growth?year=2010-2020 https://bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/income-growth?year... [1]: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_1mth https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_...
elnatro 2y ago
All politicians have been saying that a decade at least. In Spain, home owners associations can forbid tourist apartments if they vote it. Why can’t they just do it? Spain is suffering a multi-centralization process. Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Malaga are increasing their populations. The rest of the cities are losing inhabitants. Why? Because the job opportunities are not there.
- zrn900 2y ago
  > Spain is suffering a multi-centralization process. Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Malaga are increasing their populations. The rest of the cities are losing inhabitants. Why? Because the job opportunities are not there. The depopulation problem of MOUNTAINOUS regions of Europe, including Spain, has little to do with jobs being available elsewhere. The depopulation in those mountainous regions is due to those regions being undesirable for human habitation all the way, and the recent advent of technology and infrastructure making it possible for people to go to other places. These regions were inhabited only because people had to live there and the human society's infrastructure could not carry millions of people in a central location.
  - elnatro 2y ago
    I don’t think that’s true even less true in a digital economy we are all in. Poorer regions like Extremadura and Andalusia have been neglected for centuries and now the economy is so dire we are seeing a mass migration from south Spain to other regions.
SaintSeiya 2y ago
As they should. Speculating with housing is as disgusting as speculating with healthcare, the fact that is normalized in countries such as USA makes it not less disgusting.
nhggfu 2y ago
any legit + non-paywall source? [this outlet will publish anything for $, so not even a "trusted source"]
Gimpei 2y ago
You could, you know, just build more housing. But that would be far too sensible. A 30% social housing requirement seems equally nuts. Who is going to want to build anything with those margins. If you want social housing, that’s great: raise taxes and pay for it. Throwing a massive wrench in the market machinery helps nobody apart from the politician who wants to create the impression that they are “doing something.” The unaffordability crisis is just going to worsen, until you end up with an S.F. situation, where the middle is hollowed out and only the extremes remain.
ur-whale 2y ago
What could possibly go wrong ? My money is on what happens every time governments stick their hairy knuckles in the delicate mechanics of the free market: the economy works around them. IMO, in this case, it will foster a huge black market (because there's strong demand for the stuff) and make a stream of taxable income disappear underground altogether.
- LegitShady 2y ago
  >foster a huge black market any black market feasible to replace airbnb will immediately be discovered by the authorities. The effect will be to greatly reduce short term rental of units that should be dwellings for people who live in those cities. Any system that replaces airbnb illegally will simply have police renting these properties and arresting everyone involved or seizing properties illegally being rented.
toastercat 2y ago
One of my most distinct memories of visiting Barcelona in 2018 was going to a hip hang out spot with a few cousins who live there, turning a corner and seeing the words "TOURISTS FUCK OFF" graffiti'd in large letters along the side of the building. I remember thinking "oh they're talking about me."
- zrn900 2y ago
  It got worse now. https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u...
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Who cares? That is just some random loser who wrote that, who knows how long ago.
t43562 2y ago
Airbnb has made it unnecessary to have friends in city X who will gladly let you couch surf - because lets face it: hotels are a prohibitive rip off. Hotel owners must hate it. To me it seems much more likely that this is the reason for such bans because in housing terms the number of Airbnb properties seems far too small to make a difference.
- GenerWork 2y ago
  Don't worry, at least here in the US the ridiculous fees that are being charged by homeowners are making hotels seems worth it again, no legislation required.
  - nmeofthestate 2y ago
    We looked at hotels for a recent Italy holiday but they were a good bit pricier and in worse locations. Good locations were wayyy more expensive than an apartment. The Airbnb we went with was pretty nice, and I much prefer the experience of an apartment to a hotel room anyway. I haven't holidayed in a hotel pretty much ever, come to think of it.
    - GenerWork 2y ago
      I've heard that the European AirBnB experience is similar to what it was like in the US around 2016. Much more friendlier, personal, and cheaper than hotels to boot.
renewiltord 2y ago
Four year window for licenses to expire. Good time to get a pied a terre there. Should be fun!
rock_artist 2y ago
Anyone knows how much of Barcelona’s municipal revenue is originated from tourists directly and indirectly?
- johnp314 2y ago
  Today's Wall Street Journal (Jun 20) has an article "Europe has a new Economic Engine: American Tourists", where this is written: "While Germany’s economy is flatlining, Spain is Europe’s fastest-growing big economy. Nearly three-quarters of the country’s recent growth and one in four new jobs are linked to tourism."
- gield 2y ago
  Non-Spaniards always overestimate the importance of tourism in Barcelona. 3.9% of Barcelona's GDP in 2022. Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1346730/tourism-contribution-gdp-cities-spain/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1346730/tourism-contribu... 5.4% of Catalonia's GDP in 2022. Source: https://economia.gencat.cat/web/.content/70_economia_catalana/arxius/informe-anual/informe-anual-2022/IA-2022-summary-en.pdf https://economia.gencat.cat/web/.content/70_economia_catalan... 11.6% of Spain's GDP in 2022. Source: https://www.bde.es/f/webbe/GAP/Secciones/SalaPrensa/IntervencionesPublicas/Gobernador/Arc/Fic/IIPP-2024-01-22-hdc-en-tr.pdf https://www.bde.es/f/webbe/GAP/Secciones/SalaPrensa/Interven...
nayuki 2y ago
Oh The Urbanity! - Vacation Rentals vs. Affordable Living: The AirBnB Dilemma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1VeEGCzqn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1VeEGCzqn4
- verteu 2y ago
  Nice video. To summarize the linked studies: 1) The effects of tourism on housing prices: applying a difference-indifferences methodology to the Portuguese market. https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJHMA-04-2021-0047/full/pdf https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJHMA-04... > Following the liberalization [allowing more AirBNBs], for each one percentage point increase in the share of STR as a percentage of the housing stock, housing prices increased 27.4% and 16.1% in the Lisbon and Porto MSA municipalities most exposed to STR, respectively. These results represent a much higher impact than that estimated in previous studies (Franco and Santos, 2021) 2) The impact of Airbnb on residential property values and rents: Evidence from Portugal https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046221000272 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660... > This article quantifies the impact of Airbnb’s short-term rentals on housing affordability in Portugal. > We find that on average a 1pp increase in a municipality Airbnb share results in a 3.7% increase in house prices.
ilikeitdark 2y ago
I've been living in Barcelona for a long time. The mayor is very, very cozy with the hotel industry, which is very much effected by tourist apartments and Airbnb. And he will most likely be out of power in 3 years, so won't actually have to see this through and is just doing this to make himself look good with the many citizens who believe we have too many tourist.
etx 2y ago
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SergeAx 2y ago
I see AirBnB as a cheap-ish alternative to hotels, although short-term landlords are doing their best trying to extract as much money from their clients as possible (famous "$300 cleaning fee"). Thus, I don't think the city will really suffer from shrinking of the cheap tourism segment. Barcelona is already overcrowded, so making this crowd less dense and more rich at the same time is a net positive scenario. Also, the city needs long-term housing for those who work and study there. There are lots of beautiful hotels in Barcelona. I visited the city about 10 times and never stayed in the same hotel twice, the choice is wild.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
RestlessMind 2y ago
From today's another thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754463): > "Spain is Europe’s fastest-growing big economy. Nearly three-quarters of the country’s recent growth and one in four new jobs are linked to tourism"
rm16 2y ago
If somebody owns an apartment, they should be able to do whatever they want with it (including renting it to tourists)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Aren't those apartments concentrated in the old parts of the city, where no sane person would want to live long-term anyway? Full of noise, dirt, drunkards, junkies, prostitutes etc?
iso8859-1 2y ago
The actual decree: https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2024-281 https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2024-281

254 points by voisin 2y ago

thr0waway001 2y ago

Ya listening Canada? This is how it’s done.

Izikiel43 2y ago
Canada needs to relax their zoning policies a lot and build a ton more buildings. People mostly want to be in one of 3 destinations in Canada: * Vancouver * Toronto * Montreal Which is where high paying jobs are, and which are mostly zoned for houses.
LegitShady 2y ago
canada has no way to outbuild its insane immigration numbers. Airbnb being eliminated would be great and I approve, but I do not think it will substantially affect the housing market.

hombre_fatal 2y ago

It's a short term authoritarian bandaid that doesn't even help that many people, all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future. We should go the asian route of increasing density and size. It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border.

shoulderfake 2y ago
Have you been to Barcelona? You can't put any more shit than there already is.
othello 2y ago
Barcelona has a 16,000 people per square km density - that’s already one of the highest in Europe. https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-population#:~:text=The%20city%20proper%20has%20a,s%20most%20densely%20populated%20cities https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/barcelona-pop....
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  It's 67th in the world and less dense than 11 French cities, though not a great comparison because most of those are small cities. But just because it's in the top 100 doesn't mean it's maxed out. It still has 5000/sqkm fewer people than Paris. Nor does it mean this trade off for a measly 10,000 flats is worth it in such a large city.
  - Detrytus 2y ago
    Please, the densities seen at the top of that list are really inhumane, more like prison camps than cities. Also, increasing density might be easy if you demolish 100 single family homes to build 10 five-stories buildings, but replacing Barcelona's 5-6 stories blocks with 10-stories ones isn't going to be economically viable. And if some brave developer tries this, then the resulting apartments won't be cheap.
lbwtaylor 2y ago
It's just basic urban planning and zoning. You can't run a factory in your apartment and you can't run a hotel. Plenty of cities restrict where hotels can operate. This is nothing special and certainly not authoritarian. These measures are quite popular because, shocking, people in residential neighborhoods like have real neighbors rather than hotel guests.
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  Yes, obviously everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in somewhere, that's why they support these sorts of policies that foment resentment. NIMBYism also stifles most development in the US. But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. Giving these 10k flats to locals isn't going to put a dent in the housing economy.
  - stavros 2y ago
    If you think zoning is authoritarian, you also think a bunch of normal, everyday measures are authoritarian.
  - edoloughlin 2y ago
    > But I don't see how it's not authoritarian. If this thread continues for a few more levels, I think you’ll end up justifying hiring your own private police force. Ownership requires that a state exists to enforce your rights. There are tradeoffs with this arrangement, one of which is that the state gets to set boundaries/limits on how you can use the thing you own. Ideally, acting with the best interests of the population. This sometimes includes ensuring areas are off limits to transient inhabitants so that a society can develop.
  - happytoexplain 2y ago
    > everyone wants to be the last person allowed to move in This is uncharitable. What everybody wants is for the place they call home, either by inheritance or hard work, to not be harmed by overdevelopment. People will have varyingly (un)reasonable opinions on what "over" means, but even a place with zero development has new residents - people do not live in one place forever, nor do they live forever.
zrn900 2y ago
> It's a short term authoritarian bandaid That's unintelligible. With that logic, every law and regulation is authoritarian. > all the while fostering resentment and opening up increasingly authoritarian measures in the future Here's the resentment: https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u... And yes, the locals want more authoritarianism to keep away the overcrowding tourists, rich foreigners, and people who think like you. That's what the problem needs and what people like you understand.
- dang 2y ago
  Please make your substantive points without swipes (like "that's unintelligible" and "people like you"). This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Edit: yikes, you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly and badly—examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40743048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40675193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40673804 We have to ban accounts that keep doing this, so please stop doing this, and please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle. (I suppose I should add the standard disclaimer that no, we don't care about your views. We care about your following the rules and using the site as intended, same as with any other user.)
  - zrn900 2y ago
    Under this post and in every single post you referenced, people are taking the largest swipes at entire countries, even peoples/races without any repercussions. > please make sure you're not using HN primarily for political or ideological battle All the threads you referenced are filled with people using the site in a political and ideological manner. There are people who are literally doing propaganda against entire countries and people. > no, we don't care about your views If you don't care about the views of the users, don't care about them in an egalitarian way. So far the rules seem to be getting applied selectively. > We have to ban accounts that keep doing this Feel free to do so. I'll get me coat myself. No need to contribute to a platform that not only does not care about its users' views but also applies its rules selectively and in an exceptionalist manner.
diggan 2y ago
> It's not like Barcelona is fully developed border to border The city of Barcelona quite literally is fully developed border to border. Or where are you suggesting these new developments are gonna be made?
permalac 2y ago
There is a democratic process on which tourists don't participate. I think this working as it should.

deutschepost 2y ago

Good. Tourists should sleep in hotels and locals should sleep in their flats. Platforms like AirBnB only put oil in the fire when it comes to housing crises.

popcalc 2y ago
Alternatively, the population practicing birth control could solve the crisis. Don't have kids if you don't own at least one home :)
- utensil4778 2y ago
  "Poor people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that will fix our problems"
  - popcalc 2y ago
    You're allowed to ruin your children's lives, no doubt about that.
    - twixfel 2y ago
      Better to be alive, though, than simply never born in order to protect airbnb, as you would prefer.
  - dindobre 2y ago
    It's not even poor people, in some "advanced economies" we're getting to a point where income means very little, and inheriting means a lot. I've only seen such a lack of empathy in teenagers or silver spoons.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Who do you think is going to do the work every facet of your life requires?
  - popcalc 2y ago

shoulderfake 2y ago

[dead]

lucasfcosta 2y ago

Honest question: does this work? It seems to me that this change will have unintended effects and will fail to produce the desired results. AFAIK rent in NYC hasn’t gone down since they changed their short-term rental regulations. I might be naive, but I’d assume that the solution is to build more housing to increase the supply instead of curbing the demand? Genuinely curious about others’ takes on this.

kachapopopow 2y ago
The problem is that residents leave entire areas of the city since they become empty. Foot traffic drops, local shops close - a non ending cycle of death.
cheeze 2y ago
I'm far from an expert but I'd think it would drive tourism prices up due to less supply of STR housing (which could harm a local economy, although a behemoth like Barcelona probably isn't super concerned here) Prices may not go down on rents, but if it means that more folks who actually _want to live in the city_ can, I see that as a positive. I can see in NY the case where decrease in housing leads to folks being priced out and moving elsewhere (NJ, etc.) Obviously not speaking with any data here.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  Everyone wants lower housing prices, except for the house they currently own.
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    People who own a home, and don't have plans to move, would benefit from housing prices falling everywhere: property taxes go down, and other prices correlated with housing go down. Two categories where people don't want pricing to go down: If you have plans to move and prices aren't falling everywhere, the proceeds of a sale aren't enough to buy elsewhere. And if your bank owns the home rather than you, falling prices screw you over because you owe far more to the bank than you could make by selling.

meow_mix 2y ago

Will this actually change anything? Curious if folks will just create a black market for these instead (this is basically how ny works)

theragra 2y ago
I have no data, but experience from many other cases shows that economics will take what it wants. Scenarios I can imagine: 1. Black market, which will hurt tourists and locals alike 2. These flats rented to digital nomads instead 3. These flats sold instead, and will be bought buy some hedge funds who will just wait for price appreciation and still asking hight rent But most plausible scenario is mix of the above plus something unexpected and bad
- zrn900 2y ago
  > experience from many other cases shows that economics will take what it wants No such thing. Regulations work. > Scenarios No need to 'imagine' things. Wherever they implemented regulations here, they worked. From rent control to airbnb bans. Regulations work as long as you enforce them.

adolph 2y ago

Barcelona seems wonderfully experimental in its governance. Iirc they also tested herbal decriminalization and developed new learning. I wonder what will be learned from this foray into property controls? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/catalonia-cracks-down-booming-marijuana-industry-2023-06-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/catalonia-cracks-down-b...

nvegater 2y ago

A lot of People in “colder” countries with higher purchasing power (specially in Europe) still want to move to Barcelona now that they can work remotely. I wonder how this fact affects the prices compared to tourism apartments.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
> A lot of People in “colder” countries with higher purchasing power (specially in Europe) still want to move to Barcelona now that they can work remotely. That's less and less true. And of those who actually moved to Barcelona, some already left (and companies too) when the independentists started being openly hostile to anything non-catalan. Why someone with the means to do what is called "geographical arbitrage" would pick Barcelona is totally beyond me.
AequitasOmnibus 2y ago
That sounds a lot like all the homeowners in California that have sold their significantly overvalued homes for 7 figures to move to states where real estate is a fraction of the cost. Generally it’s considered to be a factor in home price inflation in those cheaper states.
albertopv 2y ago
I doubt it, given increasing extreme heat waves hitting Spain much more than "colder" countries.

darknavi 2y ago

Well I certainly how it works well for them. It's a terrible feeling to feel like you're getting priced out of your own home. We stayed in a few different week-long AirBnBs (or some other rental service) in 2019 in Barcelona and loved it. Although, and this could be a big source of the problem, both people we met up with to get keys were not Spanish and specifically asked if we could speak French or German instead.

sn_master 2y ago

Good. Dublin should follow next.

grecy 2y ago

This will be an excellent case study that the rest of the world can watch and learn from. Does it have the desired impact? Are there unintended consequences? We can all speculate till the sun goes down about what we think is going to happen, now we're going to get real data. This is great. Even if the outcomes are "bad", they can just undo this is ~5 years. At least we will have all learned from it.

JackYoustra 2y ago

People will do literally anything over building enough housing to make everyone happy

smegger001 2y ago
building more devalues their assets. we are creating artificial scarcity of a basic human need because we turned it into a financial investment vehicle.
distances 2y ago
Helsinki is currently an interesting case, technically having oversupply of apartments. It's because the rising interest rates cratered the buyers' budgets -- the result is a mild downward trend in prices, definitely no crash. Building companies sit on a large supply on finished unsold apartments but steadfastly refuse to lower prices even a bit. New construction has halted completely. Seems like the construction sector will rather hold their finished stock and wait for the demand side to pick up due to necessity (people still move in to the city), or due to interest rates eventually going down.
- fh973 2y ago
  Building companies don't own the apartments, banks do. Lower effective prices means writing off debt.
  - distances 2y ago
    Not in Finland. Each housing complex is a separate company, and when you buy an apartment you actually buy a share in the company. Until sold to the buyers, the housing company is usually owned by the construction company. Banks of course provide funding, but the construction company is the one left holding the bag if the apartments don't sell.
- pembrook 2y ago
  “Oversupply” is in the eye of the beholder. There’s a market clearing price for everything. The builders can hold out for a while, but the shoe has to drop eventually. Builders only make profit when building, and if your credit is extended on old projects you can’t start new ones, hence why construction has halted. The problem is covid. Pretty much everyone in any developed economy believes the inflation+interest rate increases will be temporary. So they’re betting inflation will go back to what it was, interest rate policy will loosen again, and people’s budgets will increase again. I think they might be in for a very rude awakening. And not only that, housing preferences for the highest income professionals have fundamentally changed due to WFH. They could all get stuck dumping the wrong stock on a weak market all at the same time in a year or so.

SeanAnderson 2y ago

Barcelona has a population of ~1.7 million. The metro area surrounding is ~5.7 million. The metro area grew by ~100k in the past four years. They are freeing up ~10,000 houses over the next four years with this legislation. Barcelona built ~15,000 new properties between 2011 and 2020. The math don't math. It's a drop in the bucket. The entire impact of AirBnB + all housing built in the last decade does not offset the last half decade of population growth. Housing must be built more quickly than your population is growing to keep prices down, or you must concede that you live in a nice area where people wealthier than you wish to be and that those people are going to gentrify the area and displace locals. It's an unpleasant reality of the world. EDIT: some good feedback in the responses. thanks! I'm being a bit dramatic by saying it's just a drop in the bucket, this action frees up more housing than was built over the same timespan, and it's possible to have effects on pricing greater than what would be inferred by the raw numbers because economics is tricky. cheers.

switch007 2y ago
Politicians being politicians. Seems like each Mayor recently likes to distract everyone and blame the city's housing problem mostly on tourism. Which is easy to do as the city gets a huge number of visitors
isaacremuant 2y ago
It's demagogy and it works.
- jupp0r 2y ago
  The term is populism.
lostlogin 2y ago
For what it’s worth, it’s a little closer than your numbers imply. The city averages 2.51 people per household, so now they just need 75k more houses. https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/city-council/record-number-of-inhabitants-in-barcelona-1663530-people_975363.html https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/city-council...

wslh 2y ago

Bye bye to the great experience of living in Barcelona like a local for months. How will they limit temporal renting? Where is the limit line? Should you be a resident in the age of remote working?

Frieren 2y ago
You can still rent an apartment for months. It is going to be probably cheaper and as a tenant you will have legal protections that AirBnB users do not have. > How will they limit temporal renting Like any other illegal activity. My best guess is that the police will act when neighbors complain about noise or other nuisances. The fact that it is illegal will make easy to evict the occupants and fine the owner.
- wslh 2y ago
  You didn't answer my question, just trolled it: what is the line between being a tourist apartment and/or a remote work apartment if you want to rent one for two weeks? How will you separate it into two types?
  - diggan 2y ago
    > You didn't answer my question, just trolled it: what is the line between being a tourist apartment and/or a remote work apartment if you want to rent one for two weeks? If you don't work and you just visit for leisure, you're a tourist. If you're planning to rent an apartment for short-term remote work, you'll need to be a resident, and you'll have a short-term contract where at least your resident number is put as well (and don't forget to pay taxes on the income you earn while in the country too). So I guess leisure vs work is the line you're looking for is.
jltsiren 2y ago
I've understood that the lines were already drawn a long time ago. The short-term rentals discussed here are limited to 31 days. Normal long-term rentals are intended for stays of 1+ years. Between those two, there are temporary rental contracts intended for stays measured in months. I've understood that those contracts must include the specific reason of stay, as a measure to prevent abuse.

jmyeet 2y ago

I honestly think we need: 1. To outlaw AirBnB. Except if people are staying in your house while you're there. Other than that, it should be illegal; 2. 80% Capital Gains Tax on property sales other than your primary residence, withheld at source. 3. Withold 40% of rent income at source, which can only be credited against taxable income in the state and country; and 4. Tax non-primary residences at 2% of their market value every year in addition to any property taxes; and 5. If landlords want out, let the state buy them out and use those properties for affordable housing for all citizens. The UK previously came "dangerously" close to eliminating landlords this way last century [1]. EDIT: another big one: 6. Ban HOAs. Entirely. They are anachronism invented to enforce segregation. Any function they perform (eg picking up trash, tending communal parks) is and should be the function of local government, which is democratic. HOAs are not. Lastly, the one exception I would carve out is for multi-families and ADUs (accessory dwelling units). These were once commonplace but are now prohibited in most of the US. Just like renting out a room in your house while you're there, ADUs mean the landlord is also affected by any potential misdeeds or abuse by the tenant so is invested in that not happening. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-landlords-surprisingly-simple-solution-to-uk-housing-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/19/end-of-...

Izikiel43 2y ago
So, basically, make landownership practically illegal except for primary housing?
- jmyeet 2y ago
  It's really about ending real estate as a vehicle of creating generational wealth, an end to real estate speculation. At most, real estate should be an income generator, not a speculative asset. There is so much wrong with real estate as a speculative asset. It leads us to create policies to limit housing (because existing owners have their assets increase in value). The problem with this idea is that money has to come from somewhere. All we're doing is stealing from the next generation. It's a massive wealth transfer from the young to the old and wealthy. Housing is a necessity. It should not be withheld from people for the sake of investment gains. Homelessness is primarily caused by unaffordable housing. People don't like the externalities this creates but they simply want to move those people away so they don't have to see them when the solution is as simple as giving them housing. Well, not entirely, but that gets you 90% of the way there. Withholding shelter in the wealthiest nation the Earth has ever seen is unjustifiable state violence.

currymj 2y ago

being a tourist destination seems to me almost like a resource curse, like oil wealth can be in certain countries. tourism can be so lucrative that it is actually profitable to force out normal people and completely reorient the economy away from all other productive activities. eventually large parts of the city will become totally stagnant, but this doesn't seem to stop tourists from coming. there's often a constituency of people who are really benefiting from tourism (property owners, tour operators, restaurants) and who form a powerful bloc opposed to any restrictions or taxes. it really seems quite similar to an economy where natural resource profits drive everything, it's impossible to get any other industries off the ground or make enough money to live in any other way.

dindobre 2y ago
You nailed it with the resource curse.
matwood 2y ago
I grew up and live in a city that's often top of the list for tourist destinations and where people are moving to. It is a great city, but it's also a curse with so many people here and more every day. Many of the things I used to do for fun are no longer feasible/easy to do. But, more jobs also came and property values have gone way up - both items are/were good for me.
zrn900 2y ago
Tourism is lucrative only for a handful of major tourism corporations/agencies, a few local businesses/shops that can cater to locals, and a few among the locals who can use their real estate for things like airbnb. Only 6% of Spaniards have more than one house. So only 6% of them could actually benefit from this situation even if airbnb was a good thing. The reality of the matter is that what's happening in Barcelona ended up resembling more a colonization when tourism got combined with golden visas that allow rich foreigners and investment funds to scoop up local housing and the recent digital nomad wave. There are now more foreigners in the city center than locals and you are hard pressed to hear Spanish or Catalan being spoken around the place. "I was born and raised in Barcelona, no longer live there however. I didn't remember how bad it was until I went to visit my family last summer. Me and some friends went to walk around the center and the girl that took our orders at a Pans&Company didn't even know Spanish or Catalan, only English. It was honestly quite depressing. She was surprised we didn't open the conversation with English." https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/k...

salamo 2y ago

Hostels and hotels are strictly better in my opinion. I stayed in a hostel in Barcelona. A group of us went to a football game and had a great time.

nmeofthestate 2y ago
I stayed in a hostel on my first Barcelona visit and it was economical, but I'd not use one again - too Spartan, not enough privacy. Good choice for young gregarious backpacker types though.

visarga 2y ago

I like AirBNB especially for housing me in a regular apartment with more local vibe, won't travel to Barcelona again because I hate hotels for being too impersonal, there are other places that don't close up to visit. I respect their choice, I also prefer tourism on my own terms. Taxing short term rentals to build affordable housing seems like a good idea to me.

switch007 2y ago

Ada Colau yapped about Airbnb too. She was Mayoress for 8 years. And the problem seems to only be worse Maybe it's a bigger problem than Airbnb?

codemac 2y ago

This sounds silly. 70% is ~5.4% yearly, 40% is 3.4% growth yearly. Seems, fine? These are incredibly reasonable growth rates. Am I missing something?

codemac 2y ago
For comparison, 2012-2019 in SF was 88% growth over 7 years, or >9% year over year growth.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
verteu 2y ago
You are missing that Spain's economy is not growing like the USA's. Spanish wages grew only 2.7%/yr L10Y [1], and its nominal GDP/capita looks completely flat [2]. This explains why the city is affordable for international tourists but not locals. Regardless, a high "tourist tax" would probably be better for their economy than an outright ban. [1] https://www.ine.es/jaxiT3/Tabla.htm?t=59150 https://www.ine.es/jaxiT3/Tabla.htm?t=59150 [2] Compare https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=spain+gdp+per+capita+10+years+ago https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=spain+gdp+per+capita+10... vs https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=USA+gdp+per+capita+10+years+ago https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=USA+gdp+per+capita+10+y...
- codemac 2y ago
  At 2.7% that's 2.7% and .7% growth faster than wages. Let's look at the bay's wage growth[0]: 11% (or ~1%/yr) from 2010-2020, but they removed CPI-U inflation[1], so it's something higher (annual was ~1-3% in that time period). Which puts the bay area housing at 5%+ higher growth, 2x to 7x worse than Spain. So, once again - Spain is doing well when it comes to housing prices. Tourism frustrates locals because they think it's increased their housing costs wildly - but in fact it's because their economy is switching to a tourist economy unless they find an industry to grow. [0]: https://bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/income-growth?year=2010-2020 https://bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/income-growth?year... [1]: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_1mth https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0&output_view=pct_...

elnatro 2y ago

All politicians have been saying that a decade at least. In Spain, home owners associations can forbid tourist apartments if they vote it. Why can’t they just do it? Spain is suffering a multi-centralization process. Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Malaga are increasing their populations. The rest of the cities are losing inhabitants. Why? Because the job opportunities are not there.

zrn900 2y ago
> Spain is suffering a multi-centralization process. Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Malaga are increasing their populations. The rest of the cities are losing inhabitants. Why? Because the job opportunities are not there. The depopulation problem of MOUNTAINOUS regions of Europe, including Spain, has little to do with jobs being available elsewhere. The depopulation in those mountainous regions is due to those regions being undesirable for human habitation all the way, and the recent advent of technology and infrastructure making it possible for people to go to other places. These regions were inhabited only because people had to live there and the human society's infrastructure could not carry millions of people in a central location.
- elnatro 2y ago
  I don’t think that’s true even less true in a digital economy we are all in. Poorer regions like Extremadura and Andalusia have been neglected for centuries and now the economy is so dire we are seeing a mass migration from south Spain to other regions.

SaintSeiya 2y ago

As they should. Speculating with housing is as disgusting as speculating with healthcare, the fact that is normalized in countries such as USA makes it not less disgusting.

nhggfu 2y ago

any legit + non-paywall source? [this outlet will publish anything for $, so not even a "trusted source"]

Gimpei 2y ago

You could, you know, just build more housing. But that would be far too sensible. A 30% social housing requirement seems equally nuts. Who is going to want to build anything with those margins. If you want social housing, that’s great: raise taxes and pay for it. Throwing a massive wrench in the market machinery helps nobody apart from the politician who wants to create the impression that they are “doing something.” The unaffordability crisis is just going to worsen, until you end up with an S.F. situation, where the middle is hollowed out and only the extremes remain.

ur-whale 2y ago

What could possibly go wrong ? My money is on what happens every time governments stick their hairy knuckles in the delicate mechanics of the free market: the economy works around them. IMO, in this case, it will foster a huge black market (because there's strong demand for the stuff) and make a stream of taxable income disappear underground altogether.

LegitShady 2y ago
>foster a huge black market any black market feasible to replace airbnb will immediately be discovered by the authorities. The effect will be to greatly reduce short term rental of units that should be dwellings for people who live in those cities. Any system that replaces airbnb illegally will simply have police renting these properties and arresting everyone involved or seizing properties illegally being rented.

toastercat 2y ago

One of my most distinct memories of visiting Barcelona in 2018 was going to a hip hang out spot with a few cousins who live there, turning a corner and seeing the words "TOURISTS FUCK OFF" graffiti'd in large letters along the side of the building. I remember thinking "oh they're talking about me."

zrn900 2y ago
It got worse now. https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-up-with-mass-tourism-barcelona-locals-say-039tourists-go-home039 https://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/travel/2023/10/09/fed-u...
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Who cares? That is just some random loser who wrote that, who knows how long ago.

t43562 2y ago

Airbnb has made it unnecessary to have friends in city X who will gladly let you couch surf - because lets face it: hotels are a prohibitive rip off. Hotel owners must hate it. To me it seems much more likely that this is the reason for such bans because in housing terms the number of Airbnb properties seems far too small to make a difference.

GenerWork 2y ago
Don't worry, at least here in the US the ridiculous fees that are being charged by homeowners are making hotels seems worth it again, no legislation required.
- nmeofthestate 2y ago
  We looked at hotels for a recent Italy holiday but they were a good bit pricier and in worse locations. Good locations were wayyy more expensive than an apartment. The Airbnb we went with was pretty nice, and I much prefer the experience of an apartment to a hotel room anyway. I haven't holidayed in a hotel pretty much ever, come to think of it.
  - GenerWork 2y ago
    I've heard that the European AirBnB experience is similar to what it was like in the US around 2016. Much more friendlier, personal, and cheaper than hotels to boot.

renewiltord 2y ago

Four year window for licenses to expire. Good time to get a pied a terre there. Should be fun!

rock_artist 2y ago

Anyone knows how much of Barcelona’s municipal revenue is originated from tourists directly and indirectly?

johnp314 2y ago
Today's Wall Street Journal (Jun 20) has an article "Europe has a new Economic Engine: American Tourists", where this is written: "While Germany’s economy is flatlining, Spain is Europe’s fastest-growing big economy. Nearly three-quarters of the country’s recent growth and one in four new jobs are linked to tourism."
gield 2y ago
Non-Spaniards always overestimate the importance of tourism in Barcelona. 3.9% of Barcelona's GDP in 2022. Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1346730/tourism-contribution-gdp-cities-spain/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1346730/tourism-contribu... 5.4% of Catalonia's GDP in 2022. Source: https://economia.gencat.cat/web/.content/70_economia_catalana/arxius/informe-anual/informe-anual-2022/IA-2022-summary-en.pdf https://economia.gencat.cat/web/.content/70_economia_catalan... 11.6% of Spain's GDP in 2022. Source: https://www.bde.es/f/webbe/GAP/Secciones/SalaPrensa/IntervencionesPublicas/Gobernador/Arc/Fic/IIPP-2024-01-22-hdc-en-tr.pdf https://www.bde.es/f/webbe/GAP/Secciones/SalaPrensa/Interven...

nayuki 2y ago

Oh The Urbanity! - Vacation Rentals vs. Affordable Living: The AirBnB Dilemma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1VeEGCzqn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1VeEGCzqn4

verteu 2y ago
Nice video. To summarize the linked studies: 1) The effects of tourism on housing prices: applying a difference-indifferences methodology to the Portuguese market. https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJHMA-04-2021-0047/full/pdf https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/IJHMA-04... > Following the liberalization [allowing more AirBNBs], for each one percentage point increase in the share of STR as a percentage of the housing stock, housing prices increased 27.4% and 16.1% in the Lisbon and Porto MSA municipalities most exposed to STR, respectively. These results represent a much higher impact than that estimated in previous studies (Franco and Santos, 2021) 2) The impact of Airbnb on residential property values and rents: Evidence from Portugal https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046221000272 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660... > This article quantifies the impact of Airbnb’s short-term rentals on housing affordability in Portugal. > We find that on average a 1pp increase in a municipality Airbnb share results in a 3.7% increase in house prices.

ilikeitdark 2y ago

I've been living in Barcelona for a long time. The mayor is very, very cozy with the hotel industry, which is very much effected by tourist apartments and Airbnb. And he will most likely be out of power in 3 years, so won't actually have to see this through and is just doing this to make himself look good with the many citizens who believe we have too many tourist.

etx 2y ago

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SergeAx 2y ago

I see AirBnB as a cheap-ish alternative to hotels, although short-term landlords are doing their best trying to extract as much money from their clients as possible (famous "$300 cleaning fee"). Thus, I don't think the city will really suffer from shrinking of the cheap tourism segment. Barcelona is already overcrowded, so making this crowd less dense and more rich at the same time is a net positive scenario. Also, the city needs long-term housing for those who work and study there. There are lots of beautiful hotels in Barcelona. I visited the city about 10 times and never stayed in the same hotel twice, the choice is wild.

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RestlessMind 2y ago

From today's another thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754463): > "Spain is Europe’s fastest-growing big economy. Nearly three-quarters of the country’s recent growth and one in four new jobs are linked to tourism"

rm16 2y ago

If somebody owns an apartment, they should be able to do whatever they want with it (including renting it to tourists)

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EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago

Aren't those apartments concentrated in the old parts of the city, where no sane person would want to live long-term anyway? Full of noise, dirt, drunkards, junkies, prostitutes etc?

iso8859-1 2y ago

The actual decree: https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2024-281 https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2024-281