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The Raspberry Pi 5 Is No Match for a Tini-Mini-Micro PC

• louwrentius 2y ago
  Depending on what you want to do, the Pi may still be a good option, yet I think it's good that people are aware of alternatives such as these second-hand mini PCs.
• supportengineer 2y ago
  Advantages of Raspberry Pi: No fans, no moving parts, no dust. Huge amount of software, documentation, support available.
  • linux2647 2y ago
    Though a fan is recommended for the 4 and 5 models
  • agumonkey 2y ago
    what software is rpi only ? honest question
    • pmalynin 2y ago
      Not sure if this is still the case but I thought you could get a free version of Wolfram Mathematica for RPI for free
      • hinkley 2y ago
        Running Mathematica on underpowered hardware lead me to hate Macs for over a decade. I have concerns.
      • freeone3000 2y ago
        It’s available, but not free. The language server is free for all linuxes, sans data.
    • ddulaney 2y ago
      Almost everything can be modified or configured to run on another system, but it’s pretty common for RPi to be the default or best-tested platform.
    • ThatPlayer 2y ago
      A bit niche, but one software I use for my Raspberry Pi powered 3d printer is camera-streamer: https://github.com/ayufan/camera-streamer https://github.com/ayufan/camera-streamer It provides a WebRTC stream for a USB camera (or Pi Camera, what I'm using). Rather than the old, inefficient, low-quality MJPEG stream. The software itself will run on anything, but the WebRTC only works on a Pi for now.
  • rat9988 2y ago
    Huge amount of software compared to?
    • shadowgovt 2y ago
      Mostly other options with no fans, dust, or moving parts. The fact that you can run a Linux on it means you can tap into a big ecosystem of existing software. Nice to have.
    • dingnuts 2y ago
      good question -- methinks the GP didn't read the article. the rpi does have a ton of software compared to other SBCs, but the article is about fking x86 machines. With power consumption so low on some of these, I feel like they defeat most of the benefit of ARM and you get way more native software on x86
    • TillE 2y ago
      If you're doing stuff with the GPIO, I'm sure there's far more software written for the Raspberry Pi than anything else. If you're just using it like a normal computer, then it's not special.
      • michaelt 2y ago
        There is more and better GPIO support for Arduino, ESP32 and STM32 than anything Linux based.
  • tyingq 2y ago
    I would add GPIO pins that are also well documented.
  • ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    The Raspberry Pi 5's official heatsink comes with a fan and its collection of software is dwarfed by what's available for a x86 PC regardless of whether it's running Linux or Windows.
    • distances 2y ago
      That fan stays idle on low loads, and if you wanted you could also leave it unplugged to just rely on the heatsink. Then again, N100 can also be bought with passive cooling. But not so sure how the mini PCs of the article would fare without a fan.
      • jki275 2y ago
        I've been running a fanless mini-pc as a firewall for years. They work just fine. The ones you get from aliexpress come in a case where half of the case is a massive heat sink, and it will get a little bit warm.
      • akira2501 2y ago
        > you could also leave it unplugged to just rely on the heatsink. You can also expect your hardware to have a shorter life.
        • distances 2y ago
          Pi will automatically throttle before running too hot. And in any case, I doubt most people run their Pis hard at all. I bet most use cases will be completely fine even without that heatsink, with no compromise on the lifespan.
  • BoredPositron 2y ago
    Mhm... mini PC: [X] No fans available with atoms or i3s [X] No moving parts [X] x86... Huge amount of software [X] documentation The only thing is support but the raspberry foundation is also not really helpful if you go into the nitty gritty parts.
  • lomereiter 2y ago
    For some Mini PCs there are fanless cases, e.g. from Akasa: https://akasa.co.uk/update.php?tpl=list%2FCHASSIS+POWER.tpl&type=FANLESS+CASES&type_sub=Mini+PC&fval=all https://akasa.co.uk/update.php?tpl=list%2FCHASSIS+POWER.tpl&... I've got one of those, and it houses a system with 8 CPU cores, 32 GB RAM (can be upgraded to 64 if need be), 1 TB NVMe and 4 TB SSD - and it's all inside, whereas with an RPi the SSD would have to be external. The only thing that's collecting dust now is the old RPi.
  • RenThraysk 2y ago
    Rugged Intel NUCs have no fans.
• nisa 2y ago
  Nice overview, another venue worth looking at is thin clients. Some models like the Fujitsu Futro s740 are passive cooled, draw only 3-4w idle, can encode hevc in hardware and support up to 16gb memory and a nvme drive. There is a nice overview here: https://github.com/R3NE07/Futro-S740/blob/main/README_EN.md https://github.com/R3NE07/Futro-S740/blob/main/README_EN.md Another very similar alternative with support for 32g memory and dual channel is the Dell wyse 5070 https://github.com/pflavio/Dell-Wyse-5070-Home-Server/wiki https://github.com/pflavio/Dell-Wyse-5070-Home-Server/wiki These can be brought used for around 60-80€ on eBay. For about 150€ you can buy new Intel n100 mini computers on Ali express with similar low idle power but vastly better top performance.
  • sspiff 2y ago
    I've been using some of these off-brand n100 mini PCs as a homelab cluster for the past year or so. Their physical size is smaller than a Raspberry Pi with case, and performance is more than twice a RPi5. And you get full x86 software compatibility. Idle power is around 4-5W measured from the wall.
• IndySun 2y ago
  Perhaps the title could have been "2nd Hand Tiny Mini Micro PCs are a match for new Raspberry Pi 5s in many aspects"?
  • Teknomancer 2y ago
    Agreed. The whole premise of this article is absurd. An apples to oranges a comparison. The Pi is a platform for embedded systems development and design. And is excellent for what it is designed for. It's not a desktop workstation.
    • louwrentius 2y ago
      This blog post is not even talking about the role of these machines as a desktop workstation.
• shadowgovt 2y ago
  Has anyone else had thermal management problems with the pi5? I have one running just a couple of servers tucked away on a shelf and a corner of a room, and I find myself needing to physically recycle power on the thing about once every few days (This on top of the daily auto reboot script I have set up as a cron job). I suspect the Wi-Fi is overheating it.
  • floating-io 2y ago
    Also check your USB cables if they're supplying power. Low-quality cables are notorious causes of instability with older Pi's, and I doubt the 5 is any different in that respect.
    • chrisjj 2y ago
      PiHut should stock the required 2p capacitor, right? :)
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    Perfectly feature complete for all major UK broadband providers!
    • chrisjj 2y ago
      Apologies for the flippancy. Perhaps have the cron reboot disable service for a couple of hours?
• Neywiny 2y ago
  I think these are great options for where pis aren't needed. Over the years I've seen a deluge of "I needed a microcontroller but didn't know what that was so I used a pi" and "I needed little more than a docker image but I didn't know what that was so I used a pi". The pi really comes in handy when you need the combo of the 2. Otherwise, people are just jacking up the price for those who really do need it. And that's not me, but rather people I've known who had great use cases and couldn't buy them.
  • bmitc 2y ago
    After having bought Pis and then sold them all, I've never understood them. The Pico and Pi Zero seem to have a place, but the performance of the big Pi is so bad, it's rather pointless as an "embedded" computer or general purpose computer with a display.
    • nkozyra 2y ago
      For an embedded computer you basically need to go bare metal with Circle or something similar. But then I'd wonder what you're building because there are powerful microcontrollers you can buy for $15/1 that will handle anything with basic networking and sensors. I know some musical synthesizers are made with rPi4 and I'm befuddled that they're not the most powerful synths ever made. I think they oddest one out is the Arduino line, which is generally underpowered and expensive compared to just having a drawer of esp32s sitting around.
      • jki275 2y ago
        Arduino pre-dates the existence of ESP, at least in the western market. Also, Arduino as I think you're using it here is really just slang for AVR microcontroller dev boards. Arduino isn't actually that, it's a boot loader and a highly simplified set of libraries to interact with a wide variety of microcontrollers including ESP-32 and what people traditionally think of as "Arduino" meaning the branded dev boards labelled that way. Of course the whole Arduino ecosystem is basically garbage, but it does help beginners get into the idea of doing embedded things.
• beardyw 2y ago
  The pi has a lot of exposed pins and associated hardware capabilty. That was an intrinsic part of it's design. It's what got me interested in electronics again. Any comparison should include that. It was never meant to be just a computer.
  • kalium-xyz 2y ago
    Depends on what youre comparing. Some people buy a pi just to run home assistant or some other compute task
    • moffkalast 2y ago
      So you're saying that the Pi is a proverbial Toyota Hilux and people are buying it to highway commute to work and back instead of using it for what it was meant for, and then saying it compares poorly to sedan? Yea, no shit. If you're not using the GPIO or any of the ribbon cable peripherals there are much better options out there. But a Pi will be able to do things those machines never will.
      • Johnny555 2y ago
        I think they are comparing a $700 micro PC to an $80 Raspberry pi, but pretending they are in the same price range since the micro PC is available cheap in the refurb market.
        • bigstrat2003 2y ago
          Not only are they very different in price, the micro PC is 10x the size. Size doesn't matter for all uses, but there are going to be things where a Pi will fit but these micro PCs won't.
          • zimpenfish 2y ago
            I got one recently that was £159 (1.4x the 8GB Pi 5 starter kit) for a 16GB i3-8109U (with 500GB SSD) and is just about 3x the volume of the Argon Neo 5 case for the Pi 5 (113 x 127 x 43mm vs 94 x 70 x 30mm). Doesn't change the "[places] where a Pi will fit but these micro PCs won't" assertion but the pricing and sizing are not as egregious as you're suggesting.
• marricks 2y ago
  Has the Raspberry Pi tripled in price since launch? I was skeptical of all these threads of “this is better” but it doesn’t seem like it’s as ridiculously affordable as it once was.
  • michaelt 2y ago
    The original Raspberry Pi had a single-core 700MHz CPU and 256MB RAM. Right now I can buy: Raspberry Pi 5, 2.4GHz Quad-core CPU, 8GB for £76.80 Raspberry Pi 4, 1.5GHz Quad-core CPU, 1GB RAM, for £33.60 Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W, 1GHz Quad-core CPU, 512MB RAM, for £14.40 (None of those prices include SD card, PSU, case, or any peripherals) Is that a price rise, or just the high end getting higher?
    • marricks 2y ago
      That’s helpful a perspective. Pi4 isn’t that much more.
• rr808 2y ago
  Remember when the Pi first came out, it was cheap for small hobby projects. Rpi 5 is $80? At these prices you might as well get a refurb x86 micro pc.
  • demondemidi 2y ago
    Please point to the GPIO pins on the refurb PC. The PI is about making hardware hacking accessible on a linux-based platform. A refurb PC fails horribly at that.
    • numpad0 2y ago
      But what do you use Pi GPIO for? Using Pi GPIO directly leaves pins unconfigured or stuck while your app is inactive. Aren't most need for GPIO better served by Arduino + PC?
      • ssl-3 2y ago
        I have a Pi Zero W that is a spooky-good GPS-backed NTP server. It relies on GPIO for getting tightly-accurate PPS pulses from the GPS module (which a USB-connected Arduino won't help me with -- the timing would be much sloppier). I have also used a different Pi Zero W with an SDR dingle to decode APRS weather data, while also using GPIO to read a local DS18B20 temperature sensor and to switch a solid-state relay. I could have done this last thing with any random Linux-ey PC plus an Arduino, but then I'd have two problems. (It would have also cost me rather substantially more money: I bought these Zero Ws very, very cheaply from Microcenter.)
        • jki275 2y ago
          https://github.com/DennisSc/PPS-ntp-server https://github.com/DennisSc/PPS-ntp-server Not mine, just something I found. I had a feeling one could run a GPS backed NTP server on a microcontroller without too much difficulty.
          • ssl-3 2y ago
• InvaderFizz 2y ago
  Completely depends on intended use case. If your goal is good compute and connectivity, a used minipc or a new N100 is the obvious choice. If you need GPIO, the Pi is the obvious choice. I end up with multiple N100 systems and a single RaspberryPi.
  • Dalewyn 2y ago
    Very much this. If you just need a small, low power computer to be a server or whatever, it's hard to beat used business/enterprise SFF computers or a new N100 based NUC. rPi's defining use case is as a microcontroller, it can also serve as just a computer but it most definitely isn't optimized for that.
  • zamadatix 2y ago
    Also worth considering getting the $6 Pi Pico microcontroller in such a pairing. Keeps the microcontroller capabilities at a lower cost and without having to maintain 2 operating systems across 2 different architectures.
    • jsheard 2y ago
      Yeah, any PC can have GPIOs if you plug a cheap USB microcontroller into it. That's more or less how the Pi5 works internally anyway, as they've moved the main SOC to more modern silicon processes its internal GPIOs have become less able to tolerate hobbyist abuse, so now they proxy the GPIOs through their custom southbridge chip instead, which is an amalgamation of a microcontroller and various other peripherals.
      • analog31 2y ago
        Indeed, a USB MCU is my preferred GPIO these days. It makes my peripherals platform independent, and I can do my code development at my comfy desktop workstation with its big displays. I find it easier to write real-time code on the MCU. In fact, I've disciplined myself to make all of my projects -- hardware and software -- capable of running on any modern platform. It turns out that's not hard to do.
  • 2y ago
• dcdevito 2y ago
  [dead]
• footlose_3815 2y ago
  Those intel 6500u processors also have Quicksync, so you can run a modest PLeX server on one. I have a micro Dell PC, and it runs like a champ. I'd take it over the Pi anyday for my uses.
• atVelocet 2y ago
  If you ever plan to use any of these older PCs: Disable Spectre and Meltdown mitigations! As a bonus you should also remove CPU microcodes from the BIOS/UEFI and make sure that no microcode is loaded via software. The performance gain is huge if done correctly. There is no need for these mitigations on homelabs.
  • unique_parrot2 2y ago
    You made me try this, my cpu went from 16% to 9% on my proxmox-box running a home-assistant vm and a few lxcs. Thanks for your post.
  • kayson 2y ago
    Any guides on how to do this?
    • jki275 2y ago
      Usually it's just a bios option you can turn off.
  • ishanjain28 2y ago
    This is an excellent advice! I did that on a few of my machines few months back to reduce heat, power consumption.
• complaintdept 2y ago
  Offtopic, but does anyone know of a decent mini pc with ECC?
• throwup238 2y ago
  That's because RaspberryPis are no longer cheap throw away computers meant for education or hobbyists, they're developer kits for manufacturers that need a CPU running a well supported mainline Linux in their products. The only reason they don't cost $500 or more is because the foundation needs the hobbyist market to write and support the open source BSP, without which the RPi would be just another poorly supported also-ran in an already crowded market. With how well supported mainline Linux is on the Pi, EEs would be willing to pay a lot more.
  • WillPostForFood 2y ago
    well supported mainline Linux This is one of the main advantages for hobbyists.
    • gumby 2y ago
      And for professionals.
      • squarefoot 2y ago
        I highly doubt so. In fact, save for the RP2040 which isn't Linux capable (0), all their processors aren't for sale anywhere; Broadcom simply won't sell them to you, no matter if you order 1 or 100000. That is, you can't build your product around one of their CPU and you have to put their entire boards in you product instead, which translates in huge costs, no industrial rated parts and forced use of SD cards for system disks, which in that context are a no-no. The RPi is a hobbyist board with a huge potential for teaching, but I wouldn't consider it for anything beyond that use. 0: yeah, I know you can run it in theory; I mean in a usable way.
        • ThrowawayR2 2y ago
          Isn't their Compute Module 4 SOM industrial rated?
          • 2y ago
• lhl 2y ago
  Pi's are great for easy hardware hacking, but I don't know if they ever made that much sense as home servers. You could always pick up used office/minipcs for even cheaper than a bare pi board, and if you picked carefully, you wouldn't really be using much more idle power. Also €100-150 for those used 1L boxes sounds a bit pricey to me, since in that range you can buy brand new minipcs that perform similarly (personally for a network-centric device probably I'd go on aliexpress and grab one of the fanless N100 router-style pcs).
  • mmastrac 2y ago
    They are ridiculously overpowered for a number of usecases, even the older and cheaper 3 models. I'm running progscrape.com on a 4 and it held up to HN traffic without sweating at all. I had a Pi1 running Stylus for home monitoring with maybe 10% CPU use at any time.
• johnchristopher 2y ago
  I don't have room for that tinyminimicro pc case. I could fit 8 pi's in it. > The Pi 5 can be fitted with an NVME SSD, but for me it's too little, too late. Because I feel there is a type of computer on the market, that is much more compelling than the Pi. My pi4 has been running from an ssd for years now, no sd card. Usb3,not nvme but still good enough for my (most ?) use case.
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    > I don't have room for that tinyminimicro pc case. I could fit 8 pi's in it. Interesting. What likwly application of yours has 8 PIs in one case? > My pi4 has been running from an ssd for years now Not with 7 more in that case, right? :)
    • johnchristopher 2y ago
      > > I don't have room for that tinyminimicro pc case. I could fit 8 pi's in it. > Interesting. What likwly application of yours has 8 PIs in one case? None at the moment, it's just to compare and put emphasis on how the case takes up too much space compared to a single pi. > > My pi4 has been running from an ssd for years now > Not with 7 more in that case, right? :) Comment was more about how the pi4 could already boot and be run from an SSD (or NVME disk or whatever you put in a USB disk case). I think, with some good cable management, we could put 5 pis and SSDs into the case though !
      • chrisjj 2y ago
        I'd say "more" != "too much", myself. > I think, with some good cable management, we could put 5 pis and SSDs into the case though ! I eagerly await the HN post! :)
        • johnchristopher 2y ago
          Do you have like... a problem or something ? That's a lot of question with smilies.
• demondemidi 2y ago
  It is odd to me that people call the RPi 3/4/5 "not capable." It depends on your needs. I find it perfectly capable when I need more than an STM32/ESP, but less than a PC, which is about 90% of the gadgetry I find enjoyable. I don't understand all the anger. If you need a different platform, you need a different platform. /shrugs/
  • floating-io 2y ago
    I'm starting to wonder if we're seeing the ramping up of an Arm vs. Intel war at the same level as Mac vs. Windows, or emacs vs. vi, with Raspberry Pi as a convenient proxy, and all the usual foibles of every other us vs. them war. It wouldn't surprise me if paid influencers were fanning the flames, either; certain folks have a lot to lose if arm goes mainstream on the desktop. And then there's the recent Raspberry P-IPO or whatever it was, which seems to have pissed a bunch of people off... The timing is interesting. I can see the appeal of the N100 and similar -- and am currently considering one -- but it's hard to beat the ~1W DNS/DHCP/Consul servers that have been humming away in this house trouble free for the last decade... I don't need those to power my homelab. There's a reason they're separate, and tiny low-power Pi's are ideal for that job. I have in my possession more than merely a hammer. :)
    • AshamedCaptain 2y ago
      Where are these tiny low-power RPis that idle at 1W ? Are you measuring at the wall (i.e. with the power adapter inefficiencies?) The entire point of the article is that at least the non-micro RPis are not "low-power" at all (something that agrees with my observations). The article is quoting around 3.5W for the RPi5. I was also getting a similar reading for my older RPi4 after months of fine-tuning, while _out of the box_ an N4000 miniPC had 1.8W consumption at idle. RPi may be cheap, but not much else.
      • floating-io 2y ago
        I'm not running 4's or 5's. I'm running 2's and 3's. And they're mostly idle; DNS, DHCP, and Consul are all extremely lightweight. No video, wifi, or anything else; just ethernet and an SD card. No sense in running anything more powerful than that. Having the latest and greatest -- and top-tier performance -- isn't always necessary. And I still consider to be a credit card sized server to be tiny. Though watch-sized machines do take the cake there...
• politelemon 2y ago
  Can the mini PCs mentioned be used for videostreaming? From what I recall RPIs are weak at Plex/Jellyfin.
  • louwrentius 2y ago
    Yes, the Intel-based one supports Quick Sync.
• franciscop 2y ago
  I feel these comparisons are a bit funny. The "RasPi 5 is no match for X", showing a picture of a computer that seems around 5-8x times bigger in area, and probably around 20x bigger in volume. They also cost A LOT more, but if you get them second hand only +50%. Color me surprised, even when ignoring the general totally different markets of those, even as a tiny PC these are not fair comparisons (specially comparing a second-hand device to the full cost of a new Raspi, adding the accessories that we all hackers/makers already have).
  • louwrentius 2y ago
    A ton of people use Pis as small home servers and for that use case, there are imho better options.
    • franciscop 2y ago
      Yes, for ALL purposes that people use the Pis for there's definitely a better, more specific option. But that's the great thing of the Pis, that they are very general-purpose for hobbyists, while also being very well standardized and documented (and run Ubuntu).
• tjoff 2y ago
  I don't see the appeal of using these mini-PCs. Using an old second hand power supply is enough to turn me away. And the PI has many advantages. Power supply dies? I can order a new one in literally seconds. And meanwhile I wait for it to arrive I can use a spare notebook charger or whatever. Etc. The shortage sucked, but it is solved now. Last image I created I tucked in a Raspberry Pi 1, and it worked just fine. The versatility is unmatched. Equally I can test an image at my home and then let someone install it on the other side of the globe. The point of a Pi for me is more that you can have it where you need it. Attached to your TV or whatever. For a home server I would recommend something beefier, an old desktop will be superior to any mini-pc and the Pi. But probably bulkier and more power hungry. A Pi5 with nvme does work and be a decent home server for tinkering though. From my perspective the niche for the mini-PC is pretty much nonexistent. But I don't think maximum utility is the goal though, it is a hobby. Do what you enjoy! Tinkering with low power PCs might be enough of a reason alone. But these comparisons to the Pi doesn't make much sense to me.
  • goosedragons 2y ago
    You can get new Mini PCs for not much more than a Pi 5, especially if you want an 8GB model, case etc. $150-$200 will get you an okay bottom barrel Intel PC with support for stuff like SATA and M.2 SSDs which are more annoying to have on the Pi.
    • AnotherGoodName 2y ago
      And $150 is overstating it. Look up ‘n3350 all in one’. Lots of models and retailers selling these atm. Intel must be selling these cpus for a few cents given the price for these complete systems with storage ram, case and power supply is ~$65 even when not on sale.
      • ac29 2y ago
        N3350 is nearly ten years old and I suspect a lot of the ultra cheap "new" systems using it are actually using salvaged parts.
• earnesti 2y ago
  I always keep coming back to RPi because of the software support. Now when I think about it, basically everything is secondary to that. Most of the stuff with RPi just works like charm, and when not, you usually find tons of information how to make it working. Not so with other devices
• diffeomorphism 2y ago
  Used, many years old PCs are cheap compared to new, non-used ones and can be still perfectly sufficient for basic tasks. True, but also seems very apples to oranges. The proper comparison would be either be pi vs new mini PC (e.g. n100 based) or new mini PC vs used mini PC.
• Someone1234 2y ago
  I recently spent some time looking into exactly this. I ultimately decided to go with an N100 running Proxmox. It is a wonderful compromise between power utilization and compute. The N100 was roughly $50 more than the Pi 5 (after adding storage to the Pi). The idle cost to power both is roughly $5/year for the Pi5 and $10/year for an N100 (based on local electricity rates YMMV). I'd argue the Pi still has a purpose: Running it off of battery/solar is likely better, it is physically smaller, and it also has pin-outs and documentation/software to support it. If all you're after though is a small-low power usage computer, it may not be the first choice anymore.
• tacticalturtle 2y ago
  If you’re in a small apartment or sensitive to noise, I think it’s still worth considering the Pi or a new fanless N100 system. I bought a tiny Lenovo i5-6500 system on eBay, and while it’s fantastic from a price/performance perspective, you can still hear a subtle whine when the ambient noise drops. Which makes total sense - the acoustic output is probably not a major consideration when they’re optimizing for footprint and cost.
  • TacticalCoder 2y ago
    > I think it’s still worth considering the Pi or a new fanless N100 system. I bought a tiny Lenovo i5-6500 system on eBay, and while it’s fantastic from a price/performance perspective, you can still hear a subtle whine when the ambient noise drops. This. I basically made nearly the same comment somewhere else in this thread. But then we have similar nicknames so...
    • tacticalturtle 2y ago
      And at almost exactly the same time! Maybe some parallel universes crossed over.
  • fbdab103 2y ago
    At least for the lower power draw models, can you disable the fan entirely? Or cut the RPMs in half?
    • tacticalturtle 2y ago
      It’s an i5-6500T, which is the same as the regular Skylake, but limited to a max of 2.5GHz I actually solved the problem by just discretely routing an Ethernet cable to a closet - but considering that it averages 10W from the wall, I definitely suspect I could get away with taking the lid off and adding a larger heat sink.
  • mynegation 2y ago
    This is situation I am in and I went for a completely fanless mini ITX system that works very well for me for close to 10 years already (yes, it is time for an upgrade - probably to a fanless N100 based mini ITX). These systems are a great alternative to both Raspberry Pi’s (that now need fans) and those repurposed office PCs, even if you do not mind the fans.
• TacticalCoder 2y ago
  I find TFA interesting because I've got at home, both on my desk and in the closet, a mix of Raspberry Pis and... HP EliteDesk mini PCs / NUCs. I mean: literally the same HP EliteDesk as pictured in TFA. I bought three HP EliteDesk that were decommissioned from a nearby NATO base (so I bought them factory reset and without any hard disk in them). One advantage the EliteDesk do have is that they are not ARM, which can help at times when I need to run that's only shipped as an image and that wasn't compiled for ARM. I know there are other ways but, well, when that happens I just run that on the EliteDesk. Now the very obvious advantage the Raspberry Pi have: no fans. That is, to me, a big one. A huge one. My main PC is so quiet that I do hear the EliteDesk's fans when I turn one on. Typically I'll just run a Plex server at home on the EliteDesk and only turn it on when I want to stream something: the rest of the time they're off. The Pi do run servers not requiring lots of CPU: like an unbound DNS server. I don't see these as mutually exclusive: they can be complementary. If I had to pick only one I'd probably still pick a Pi though.
  • louwrentius 2y ago
    The Pi 5 needs a fan, unless you can find a special case that allows the device to run without a fan. I run the Pi4 which hosts this blog fan-less and that works fine, even 'right now'.
    • distances 2y ago
      Not the parent, but I run my Pi5 without a case, out of sight. I do have the Active Cooler fan on it, but on normal low intensity usage the fan turns on only during bootup and otherwise stays off.
    • t43562 2y ago
      You can choose not to use a fan.
      • justin66 2y ago
        And even if it throttles because of temperature, it will be faster than a Pi 4.
• mvkel 2y ago
  I mean it's, what, 5X the volume of a raspi? I would hope it's in a different class.
• KaiserPro 2y ago
  Sorry, but if you're going to write the Pi5 off, do it properly compare it to an intel n100 machine. https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIGKEY-Lake-N100-Processor-G4-Computer/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/TRIGKEY-Lake-N100-Processor-G4-Comp... £165 16 gigs of ram, 500gig ssd. 1957 single core passmark and 5548 multicore. More importantly its 5 watts at full CPU You can run it off 19v DC, and its physically tiny. Yes, it has a fan, but its not that loud, significantly quieter than the HP The second hand HP is just not compelling anymore, unless you need more than one drive, or you need something physically larger. TLDR: the PI isn't great for KVM. The n100 is. I have a mix of n100s, NUCs and Pis. Each has their purpose. If you really want cheap ephemeral linux, then the pi-zero is still dirt cheap. £20 for a linux machine with wifi.
• louwrentius 2y ago
  The irony is that HN is now hitting my solar-powered Pi4 on which this blog is hosted, and the cores don't even go past 25% if they even get there. No need for a tiniminimicro to host a static blog site :-)
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  I buy every Pi and try to run MechWarrior 2 in dosbox and they've all fallen short. I also have a Surface Go 2 (bought used for $80) w/ 4GB of memory + Pentium Gold and it runs flawlessly. Relatedly- I find that old hardware is still very capable but ruined by new media codecs that lack HW acceleration. Are the new codecs really worth it when they essentially render whole generations obsolete for media?
  • dddw 2y ago
    Ugh I just loved to play that game. Cool you still do!
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    > Are the new codecs really worth it when they essentially render whole generations obsolete for media? I think you just put your finger on why they are so popular. Enshittification will prevail.
• haunter 2y ago
  I have some of these mini PCs at home. Not just HP but Lenovo and Dell are also making them. A Dell Optiplex 3080 with i5-10500T, 16GB DDR4, and 256GB NVMe SSD is ~200€ and can be upgraded to 64GB RAM with a lot of storage (NVMe + a 2,5")
• deleted 2y ago
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• raffraffraff 2y ago
  I wrote a post on my (deleted) blog back in 2022, and in it I documented some of the issues I ran into with the Raspberry pi 4 when I was building a media pc that I bolted onto the back of a TV. Briefly, the Pi absolutely sucked in a bunch of ways compared to the MeLE Quieter 3Q that replaced it. 1. Pi couldn't use USB 7.1 audio device in the mode I needed (7.1 out + line in). No idea why, but Linux totally froze up when I selected that mode, and remained frozen until I physically unplugged the usb device. On the same USB device this worked fine on other computers. This meant that I couldn't use my external Bluetooth receiver seamlessly via the Pi. 2. YouTube failed in a bunch of ways. Seriously! Neither Chrome nor Firefox would work 100% reliably. Sound issues on most videos, awful performance, locking up the browser. https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=323640&start=175 https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=323640&start=... https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=151632 https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=151632 3. Can't be put to sleep or remotely started using Wake On LAN 4. Lacking sufficient hardware encoders/decoders 5. Everything goes through the USB bus, so you get awful storage/network performance 6. Can't use Wine to run windows apps. While this may not be an issue for many people it was for me because I wanted to use MusicBee. Wine works fine on the Pi if you've got ARM compatible windows apps. So good luck with that. 7. The hassle and cost of getting a decent case. I ended up spending a few hundred bucks on the MeLe and everything just worked. Flawlessly. First time. And I had a wide-open choice of Linux distributions.
• scosman 2y ago
  New vs used is mentioned, but kinda critical for the comparison. Yes a $60 board is definitely less capable than a $300 PC. The cost difference is primarily driven by the factors compared: better CPU, better IO, and more memory. You get what you pay for and you can get deals in the used market. Pi's are great for their ecosystem, being fanless, and cost for a brand new device. Aside: ESP32/ESP8266 have taken over a lot of the hobbyist realm for connectivity + GPIO. $3 dev boards that are plenty fast for almost any single use-case scenario.
  • teruakohatu 2y ago
    In the article, the author found a mini-PC at a lower cost than the Pi, when accounting for all the accessories he would have needed. I gave up on Pis when I could not longer get them easily in my part of the world. And I agree with you, ESP32 boards are perfect for simple GPIO+Wifi connectivity.
• deleted 2y ago
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• xhrpost 2y ago
  This is timely, after not getting my Orange pi to boot an image, I saw I can get an actual mini PC like these used on eBay for like $60 shipped. 8GB ram and 500gb SSD with small form factor. I'm considering buying more and trying to host some old school LAN parties as used LCD monitors can also be had for about $50.
• gizmo686 2y ago
  These conversations around the rPi make no sense to me. To me the value of rPi has always been: * Simple to install a well supported OS with a full UI. * GPIO array (including pwm, i2c, etc) I could take one. Connect a keyboard and monitor. Jumper a few pins into a breadboard with an LED matrix, and right a python script to bitbang a multiplexed LED array The only other product I have seen that I view as even competing in the same space is the OrangePi line. However, those are vastly inferior in terms of support.
  • AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    Compared to an x86 PC which is what TFA is showing ? The only argument in favour of the RPi is GPIOs, but "simple to install" and "support" definitely are a thousand times better on standard x86 PCs than on any of these ARM SBCs.
    • gizmo686 2y ago
      Right. It is the combination of the two features. If all you want is the GPIO array, there are thousands of other boards you could buy. If all you want is a well supported, easy to use computer, there are hundreds of options to choice from. If you want both in a single product, your options are very limited.
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    The sense is apparent when one recognises this "value" is just features. Net value includes much more.
• dabeeeenster 2y ago
  I have a Pi 4. It runs home assistant and bunch of other docker images. It has a DVBT-2 hat that feeds tvheadend that lets me watch broadcast TV on my laptop and phone. It doesnt make a noise. It doesnt reboot randomly. It doesnt get hot. It doesnt get hacked. After that, who cares?
• rcarmo 2y ago
  Of course it's not. It's not even a match against the Rockchip boards I've been testing over the past few months: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2024/06/16/1800 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2024/06/16/1800 I also have recently gotten an N100 mini-PC, which helped me put one of my ancient mini-ITX i7 machines out to pasture. Those are amazing (and are dipping under $120 with 12GB RAM and 512GB SATA SSDs). But more to the point, I think the space the original Pi occupied in hobbyist land is being eaten up by RP2040 and ESP32 MCUs, which can do everything I need I/O wise and with increasingly sophisticated software support (MicroPython is amazing for prototyping, and I even got a WaveShare RP2040 board to test that is a direct drop-in replacement for a Pi Zero)
• squarefoot 2y ago
  I've moved my media players and servers to mini PCs and unlocked Chromeboxes and couldn't be more happy. Performance is on another planet compared to the RPi. Mini PCs however can't be used when one needs a small board with lots of gpios, but there's a lot of (often cheaper and faster) competition in that field as well. Please, keep in mind that the usual story "other boards don't have decent Linux support/community" is simply not true. Here are Armbian and DietPi pages where you can find images with mainline support for a lot of common boards, including forums. Images supplied by the board manufacturer should rather be intended for quick testing only as you can't count on their support; just ignore them and go straight to Armbian or DietPi sites, and consider contributing for their hard work. https://www.armbian.com/download/ https://www.armbian.com/download/ https://dietpi.com/#download https://dietpi.com/#download
• nullify88 2y ago
  Powertop is a great utility for identifying wakeups and CPU C states, but for tweaking power management flags in Linux, I find TLP (https://linrunner.de/tlp/index.html https://linrunner.de/tlp/index.html) to achieve greater power savings at the "cost" of more configuration.
• chad1n 2y ago
  Raspberry Pi is mostly an expensive toy at this point, it costs 60-80$ and it's pretty hard to buy one to begin with. You can't use it for most electronics projects because it's overkill and also it's not as powerful as a n100 or a second hand pc. If you are lucky, you can snipe a bunch of ryzen 3 hps or dells (if you don't need a lot of performance) for 60-80$ or ryzen 5s at 120$ (if you need a bit more).
• PreInternet01 2y ago
  This headline makes as much sense as "the Kia Niro is no match for the Volvo FH" -- it really all depends on what you want to do with it? RPi5 is a great platform for prototyping, and many hobbyist applications, even if you move to ESP32 or similar afterwards, or if you decide that PC-ish platforms work better for you after all. "One size fits all" has never worked in computing history and most likely never will...
• ein0p 2y ago
  My home router runs on a dual core Intel Celeron. Software wise it’s OPNSense in KVM and a few docker containers on the host. Measured power draw is 4-5W. That’s with an SSD and 16GB RAM. It’s also way faster than any Raspberry Pi. The notion that Intel draws a lot of power is wildly outdated.
• tonymet 2y ago
  I consolidated about a dozen raspberry pis and virtual servers onto a Hyper V server https://info.microsoft.com/ww-landing-microsoft-hyper-v-server-2019.html https://info.microsoft.com/ww-landing-microsoft-hyper-v-serv... Hyper V Server runs any Linux VM via VHD or ISO installation image. You can provision using Vagrant to automate your setup. It was nice to consolidate all of my resources, clean up the spider web of raspberry pi’s, and reduce VM costs by running everything locally .
  • stock_toaster 2y ago
    I’m curious… Why hyper-v and not something like proxmox?
    • tonymet 2y ago
      Originally the server & VMs were running on my windows 11 pro dev machine. Keeping HyperV made it easier to move them to another machine. Now that I have a separate server, I find it easier to develop the VMs on my dev machine, snapshot and then migrate them to the server. I have a library of base images for alpine, Debian & Kali Linux that I can launch as easily as AWS. Using Hyper-V across both makes this seamless. I can manage the servers using the Windows Management Instrumentation (gui) or RDP into the server. I know many Linux users have aversion to Windows, but I get a lot of benefit out of Windows for other applications as well (gaming, one drive, document indexing, copilot, as well as all the great native apps)
  • tonymet 2y ago
    Typical Hackernews Windows discrimination
• giantrobot 2y ago
  I've gone this direction with my home lab stuff as well. I have an assortment of older RPis up to a couple RPi 4Bs. Most I bought to use on projects where I wanted Linux plus GPIOs and they were and still are good for that purpose. I've also given in to the temptation to use them as little servers on my LAN for various sorts of things. I've even tried to use them for HTPC boxes and they have worked ok. However I have sent all my Pi's back to projects where I just want Linux plus GPIO. For everything else I replaced them with cheap mini PCs. 1) a bare Pi on a workbench/desk is fine but when connected to a TV in the living room has a very low WAF. 2) the arrangement of ports on a Pi are a complete pain in the ass. Even with a case any installation of a Pi looks like a careless hack job. 3) MicroUSB is complete fucking garbage. The port/connector wears or breaks and the slightest bump powers off the Pi. MicroUSB power supplies are usually also garbage and typically have criminally short cables. "Appliance" appropriate power for a Pi costs more than the Pi itself. USB-C in the 4B is better but I've only got one of those. 4) like power supplies a decent microSD card that won't randomly fail in a Pi ends up costing as much as a Pi. I replaced a bunch of individual Pis running servers with a single mini PC with an N95. The Pis weren't taxed with the server loads so the N95 doesn't break a sweat. It's also way easier to manage since the various server apps are managed by a docker compose file. The mini PCs replacing the HTPC Pis are just a better experience overall. The ports are all on one side, they have same barrel connectors for power, and their local storage doesn't magically corrupt itself because the unknowingly cheap power supply didn't provide enough power. I still love the Pis for small nerd projects but just don't want to deal with them anymore for pretty much anything else. If you don't need GPIO for a project and physical volume isn't a prime concern a <$100 mini PC is a far more convenient option today than a Pi. That wasn't true ten years ago which was why I started using Pis for servers and stuff but today it is definitely the case.
  • diffeomorphism 2y ago
    1) Cases are relatively cheap, nice looking and tiny. 2) USB is grouped together and HDMI is on the side. I guess you could have all ports on one side or on opposite sides but that seems like a non-issue. 3) Pi5 is usb c and does its job. The optional 15V kerfuffle is a bit annoying, yes. 4) Why would you want to use a microSD card instead of just using a usb stick? > If you don't need GPIO for a project and physical volume isn't a prime concern a <$100 mini PC is a far more convenient option today Agreed, though then going up further up in volume to itx or matx might be even more convenient.
• robertlagrant 2y ago
  TL;dr: brand new top end Pi 5 similar price to second hand base spec of another type of computer.
• userbinator 2y ago
  The AMD-based system is cheaper, but you 'pay' in higher idle power usage. That 6W more costs around $5.26 per year at $0.10/kWh, which is basically nothing.
  • krasin 2y ago
    In SF Bay Area, the cost of electricity is $0.42/kWh, so around $20/year for just extra idle usage. Still not a lot, but it adds up.
  • beacon294 2y ago
    Yes I pay $4/watt/year in bay area.
• axegon_ 2y ago
  Well... Yeah... I have a bunch of raspberry pis from back when they were cheap + a raspberry pi 400 I won at a hackathon a few years ago. There are things about them that I love(the older ones to be more specific): low power and great thermals. But ever since their prices skyrocketed, I have completely abandoned the newer ones and opted out for what me and my friends refer to as "cubes". Optiplex micros and similar ones. They are a tiny bit more expensive but you have expandable storage and memory and in lots of cases upgradable cpu if it comes down to it. And most importantly x86, which I take over ARM any day of the week, especially when I have to dive a layer or two deeper - it's just more convenient having all the additional tools. However I have one or two projects that I keep kicking down the road due to time constraints which involves a rasprerry pi zero w2. The reason being is that it's compact, packs a decent punch and is extremely easy to power it from an 18650 battery and keep a low profile. I'm fine with the current prices of the raspberry pis but it's hard to justify using one of them if you don't need GPIO pins or something that uses little power. My advice to the raspberry pi foundation is to stop trying to push performance and focus on features. I'd be the first in line to get a new raspberry if it comes with a battery hat and LoRa built in(the project I was referring to really). Here's another one(which ironically already sort of exists): the milkv duo. There are lots of cases when you don't need a full operating system 24/7, which would waste a lot of resources to do one-off tasks every now and then. Ideally you should be able to boot the OS from a sensor or some sort of signal, which is hooked to a very under-powered micro-controller only when you really need it, let it do it's job and then power it off. As we stand, the raspberry pi foundation largely offers the same product in different form factors with some arguably marginal upgrades, which most people don't really need.
• turtlebits 2y ago
  You don't buy a Pi for performance. You buy it for peace of mind. If one dies you can easily find a replacement and just swap out the SD card.
  • pi-rat 2y ago
    Not that different for the prodesk/elitedesk small form factors IMHO. There’s a steady supply of cheap used ones available on most online marketplaces (there’s probably millions of them being cycled out of offices every year). Get a new replacement one, swap over the NVME. Doesn’t have to be the same cpu, linux handles the rest.
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    Bought, yes. Buy, not so much. Because where will you buy the replacement once RPI plc has discontinued it? Esp. considering the likes of https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-19735/Raspberrypi.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-1973...
• liampulles 2y ago
  In my area there are a few pawn shops who offer second hand DELL enterprise pcs, which is great for me because they struggle to sell them to the general public and I've gotten my hand on one or two for a steal. I use one as a server, and another as a media center PC. My server has been going without issue for 5+ years now (granted, I'm not stressing it, its just for serving files and doing downloads).
• whoiscroberts 2y ago
  Not when you compare per watt performance.
  • chrisjj 2y ago
    Why would you? Watts are plentiful in any application meaningful to this comparison.
• lemonlime0x3C33 2y ago
  I will always love raspberry pi's, they are well supported and great for quick and cheap prototyping. I have used them to teach children how to code (They really enjoyed working with sensehat), research at university, and at work for rapidly prototyping. The size is also easy to work with. There are better SBC's out there, but raspberry pi is familiar. I really hope the recent IPO doesn't change too much...
• Havoc 2y ago
  And it'll get worse in the near term. The minipcs are making rapid progress
• tiffanyh 2y ago
  Pi 5 is also no match against your old iPhone you no longer use, and you would get approx the same credit value towards a new phone (as the cost of a new Pi).
• sircastor 2y ago
  I ended up swapping out my retro pi for one of these micro PCs. I’m mildly sad that it’s not the same form factor, but once I got over that, I became a lot happier. The Pi (3) didn’t behave as smoothly as the Lenovo I replaced it with. I love the Pi and the flexibility and community it has. The only thing I’ve seen to rival it is the Arduino. But for casual needs like home theater or home assistant, these 2nd hand micro-PCs are excellent. Quick aside, I actually got the micro-PC for a Starship bridge sim setup. I never put that together, but it is also a great use of these.
• seanvelasco 2y ago
  for using it as a server for self-hosted services, sure. but using it as an embedded device, almost impossible owing to the lack of IO pins. people that use the raspberry pi to host their things should definitely use these mini computers. i believe there are other great alternatives out there that's just as affordable (cheaper than a Pi), just as powerful as a mini pc, and has an extensive IO support for prototyping.
• peteforde 2y ago
  How many GPIO pins does the Tini-Mini-Micro PC have?
• Jiahang 2y ago
  Mathematica is free in pi and I really love it
• dsizzle 2y ago
  The "noise level" heading is spelled "noice level" and at first I thought the author meant "nice" spoken like an Australian lol
• xs83 2y ago
  I think the Thinkstation M920 can house a single slot short GPU in it, something like the T400 (https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-visualization/productspage/quadro/quadro-desktop/proviz-print-nvidia-T400-datasheet-us-nvidia-1670004-r5-web.pdf https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-vi...) would give you the capability to run modern GPU workloads. It wouldnt touch a data centre but the simple ability to run CUDA (Rapids.ai for example) would mean you could prototype things pretty efficiently all on a local setup and not have to pay for GPU costs.
  • justin66 2y ago
    In keeping with the spirit of the Pi that sparked this discussion (I mean, a little bit), an NVIDIA Jetson AGX Orin Developer Kit with 64GB of RAM is $2000, and the Jetson Orin Nano kit is $500.
    • xs83 2y ago
      Yeah thats ridiculously expensive for a home lab IMO, the thinkcenters can be picked up for a couple of hundred bucks used and a T400 runs about the same. So $400 for an AI capable home bench would run $1200 for a 3 node cluster - I can live with that. My 5 node Rpi5 Cluster ran $1500 with NVMe Hats and a PoE hat and cant do any GPU work :(
      • justin66 2y ago
        The AGX Orin has over five times as many CUDA cores as a t400, and the dev kit is designed to do pretty much exactly what it sounded like you wanted. The other path does offer the opportunity to wire together a pile of new and used equipment and generate heat with it, so if that’s your idea of fun, I guess the choice is clear.
• renegat0x0 2y ago
  I read here that people discuss the current prices of raspberry pi. The thing is... it doesn't really matter now. People I know that wanted to play with single board computers, they bought raspberry pi. The market is saturated, and PIs do not break that often if you do not use pins. It will take time for any other SBC to replace it, or even to come close.
• ceving 2y ago
  You are talking about refurbished hardware. The cheapest HP desktop in Germany costs more than 500€: https://www.hp.com/de-de/shop/list.aspx?fc_form_mini=1&fc_form_minitower=1&fc_form_mtower=1&fc_form_sff=1&sel=dtp https://www.hp.com/de-de/shop/list.aspx?fc_form_mini=1&fc_fo...
• indigo945 2y ago
  The article only compares idle power as far as power consumption goes, but regarding compute performance compares the systems under full load. This is somewhat of an apples-and-oranges scenario. If you care about the compute performance under full load, you should think about performance-per-watt, not about idle consumption. And in that capacity, the RPi 5 will easily beat any enterprise surplus mini PC with a 10-year-old architecture. One of the mini PCs tested in the article has a CPU with a 65W TDP! That's considerably more than the Pi 5 will draw (the entire SBC's power supply only has a capacity of 25W).
• musicale 2y ago
  The picture shows the form factor advantages of both systems.