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I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more

I completely agree. I have been living here for 8 years, and recently applied for a permanent settlement permit. My application went into a blackhole for more than 4 months, while my existing permit expired, essentially making me a prisoner here (I can stay and work in Germany but if I travel internationally, I won't be allowed entry back). Meanwhile, my applications for a temporary travel permit were unanswered for months. There is no way to contact the foreign office (no email, no telephone, no fax). You just send your application and pray. I strongly advise anyone to stay away from Germany if you have better options. This country is a bureaucratic nightmare in general.

nicbou 2y ago
Mine too! My residence permit expired in February, and my appointment is in July. I expect to have a valid residence title again by end of August. Mind you, I applied in December. I will not be able to travel out of the country for most of the summer as I wouldn't be allowed to reenter. They refused multiple times to issue the temporary permit that I'm legally entitled to. I'm having a lawyer ask again, this time with the threat of a lawsuit. It's such a common problem that I had to write a detailed article about it. People miss weddings and funerals because the immigration office is months late. The number of lawsuits due to inaction is growing exponentially since 2019.
- chironjit 2y ago
  I'll one up you and say that it's so broken, there are lots of people that basically live on ranges of exceptions. In my case, I was told I was not eligible for the visa I needed but when I spoke to a migration consultant who knew the process, they managed to get it done. I was pretty shocked as this wink, wink, nod, nod style system is not something I expected from this country.
  - nicbou 2y ago
    Yes, bureaucrats can act as gatekeepers for things that you are legally entitled to, and create various bureaucratic hurdles. It's usually mere thoroughness, sometimes incompetence, and if you cross them, vindictiveness. I was told more than once by very knowledgeable people that if you anger a case worker, they can and will make your life hard by nitpicking every little detail and asking for as many documents as they can. This happens for example if you get angry at their incompetence, or if you sue them for inaction (although in Berlin they see it as normal business by now).
    - bratwurst3000 2y ago
      This is so true . There is a word for it in German… behördenwillkür. Mean they can do with you as they please. Advocate insurance is a must here. I hate the bureaucracy here. Lawyers are the only help
      - nicbou 2y ago
        Legal insurance does not cover immigration a lot of the time
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    Germany's head of state was involved in the biggest financial scandal of its existence and forgave a corrupt bank that stole millions of taxes just a few years before going into office. corruption is spreading like a plague with no consequence in sight for anyone involved.
    - tcmb 2y ago
      Olaf Scholz is the head of the government, Germany's head of state is its president, currently Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
    - marenkay 2y ago
      If you believe corruption is just spreading now, you missed every single politician since the founding of Germany. Or every other country on the whole planet therefore. Wikipedia documents that well enough.
  - fps_doug 2y ago
    This sounds like all of you are living in Berlin, which is known as "failed state" to the rest of Germany. ;-) It varies form city to city, I live in one that I'd say is an exception on the positive side: Most clerks in the various offices are actually helpful and even giving you hints. I had to renew my passport in January and got an appointment the next day. I got the appointment online(!) in Germany(!!). Passport could be collected 4 weeks later. Meanwhile an ex-colleague who lives in Berlin had to wrestle with his nearest office to even get an appointment for a passport renewal, then gave up and made an appointment with the office in the neighboring district, where it was still a 4 weeks wait. He told me there are districts where it takes up to 6 months. I guess if you want pain and suffering, move to Berlin. :o)
    - apflkx 2y ago
      Unfortunately, this is not just a problem limited to Berlin :-( [1][2] It's been an absolute mess trying to secure my wife's settlement permit ("Niederlassungserlaubnis"). She has a german Master's degree, works in a government-funded research facility, and has been in the system since December 2022. We've now been ghosted for 14 months, only to be told to make an appointment to provide additional documents (which were not on the 'required documents' list they initially handed to us). After checking the appointment booking website to no avail, I came up with a python script that sends a notification to our phones when a new appointment pops up. It took 40 days of scraping until a new free appointment was available, only to be allowed to provide paper documents in person. Adding to that, every six months, her employer threatens to fire her if she can't prove her legal status in Germany. So she's constantly jumping through hoops to get this temporary paper permit called "Fiktionsbescheinigung" just to keep her job. It's a hassle, costs €13 each time, and involves cycling through multiple unhelpful bureaucrats at the Ausländerbehörde's hotline (they do not answer emails) until finding one that very reluctantly produces this document. All of this is beyond frustrating. [1] https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/muenchen-kvr-auslaenderbehoerde-dieter-reiter-video-chaos-studenten-aufenthalt-schlange-zr-13570759.html https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/muenchen-kvr-auslaenderbeh... [2] https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/auslaenderbehoerde-arbeit-stuttgart-arbeitskraefte-mangel-verwaltung-chaos-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/a...
- wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
  Try Spain, takes years
  - pezezin 2y ago
    I guess that depends on the city and the procedure, but I had to replace my DNI last summer and it took me less than 30 minutes, and they gave me the new one on the spot. In comparison I also had to renew my Japanese foreign card and later my ID card, and both procedures were a royal PITA, and in both cases I had to wait a month to get the new card.
    - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
      Yeah had a close person getting passport after marriage, took years, they made a mistake, another 1.5 years. Took over 5 years in the end. Lawyers making mistakes, civil cervants making mistakes, making mistakes themselves. Big mess. They are actually breaking EU law while doing these things.
      - ricardobayes 2y ago
        That actually was very interesting for me, living in Spain, how extremely common mistakes were in data entry, generally. If anyone hands you a form to check your details, you can almost guarantee to find some issue. I've never noticed this living in any other country yet.
- nixass 2y ago
  Folks, you can travel outside of Germany for sure, as long as you stay inside Schengen.
  - mkesper 2y ago
    Please add a link for people relying on this info.
    - stavros 2y ago
      A link to what? Travel within the Schengen area is unrestricted, you can drive or fly to wherever you want and nobody will check passports.
      - rkachowski 2y ago
        This isn't true, this year I have been on a train from Marseille to Berlin and German police checked everyone on the train for passports at the border specifically to check residence validity - and removed one passenger with a residence permit as he attempted to reenter Germany (he was informed he was not initially permitted to leave)
        stavros 2y ago
        Those are random spot checks, there's no border between France and Germany where everyone's passport will be checked.
        bondarchuk 2y ago
        "nobody will check passports" "Those are random spot checks" So there are random spot checks where people will check passports. So "nobody will check passports" is false.
        stavros 2y ago
        Fine, word lawyer, "nobody will check passports above the base rate of passport checking you may get anywhere, including any random trip".
callalex 2y ago
From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?
- physhster 2y ago
  Given the amount of immigrants in Europe in general and in Germany in particular, I don't think they are trying to deter people. Or if they are trying it's not working. The incompetence is not confined to immigration, it's pretty much everywhere. Same goes for France actually.
  - philsnow 2y ago
    The impression I got from the last time I was in Germany (some ~7 years ago), there's a going concern among at least some people that a certain ethnicity of immigrants is "taking over". This might be a pearl-clutching minority, or I may have completely misread the situation.
    - Escapado 2y ago
      German reporting in. Disclaimer: I am biased as I think immigration is great and I wish the process was easier and faster for those seeking to live in Germany. I think your observation is sadly very correct and this minority is very well measurable and concerningly large and growing in a lot of places. Just look at how many people vote for the AfD. Those are the ones having that concern. Luckily some places(e.g. Hamburg, Berlin) are on average more open to foreigners than others (e.g. Sachsen).
    - nicbou 2y ago
      There seems to be a growing frustration about asylum seekers who moved to Germany and did not adopt German values, a theme you will find in every country. It's scary because the party that complains the most about it is gaining traction, and it convinces centrist parties to change their stance on immigration. It's not a pearl-clutching minority anymore, but a politically advantageous position. As an immigrant, I feel like we're about to live a variation of the Niemöller poem. "First they came for the asylum seekers..."
type0 2y ago
They use this book called "Der Process" as a manual
- rcbdev 2y ago
  You can really feel that Kafka was an Austrian in his writings.
  - generic92034 2y ago
    Is that a correct assignment? Austria-Hungary was a thing back then, but someone born and mostly living in Prague I would not call Austrian today.
    - nic547 2y ago
      AFAIK Prague (and Bohemia) had a sizeable german speaking minority until the end of WW2 when they got expelled, so Prague not feeling Austrian today isn't surprising.
kanbara 2y ago
mine took like a few weeks and was very painless, even in berlin. anecdata ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- egorfine 2y ago
  It used to be painless indeed but only and solely in Berlin. Perhaps too many software developers in the city government of Berlin broke the process to a point it now actually works.
Havoc 2y ago
It’s not just Germany - I’ve got a similar can’t leave situation in UK currently
ab_testing 2y ago
Not saying Germany is slow, but that is one area where US is far behind. 21 Months - This is the current processing time for a green card after you have sent in all the paperwork to the USCIS for processing. During that time, you get no updates and of-course if you leave the country without AP, your application is considered to be abandoned. https://imgur.com/a/t8rYOjv https://imgur.com/a/t8rYOjv
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  Part of the reason is the green card queue size for US is much larger than that for Germany. The USCIS website also shows your status and gives a rough timeline.
- a_bonobo 2y ago
  It's the same in Australia; when you apply for permanent residency your application goes into a black hole. I wanted to learn more about my status and all I got back from the immigration people was 'the agent processing your application will contact you. We do not give out contact details for your agent. You will have to wait'. It took about 8 months. Once your 'regular' visa expires you go onto a bridging visa which same, you can't really leave the country. It's expensive as hell too: I think in the end I had a total cost of $7,000, just in application fees. Sounds like immigration is horrible everywhere.
  - mb_72 2y ago
    8 months is not that long; these days the wait is longer. However, you are aware of how long the wait will be, there information is right there on the Australian Immigration website: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-processing-times https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-pr... Providing updates to everyone waiting simply wastes time and resources; again, you know roughly how long it's going to take as the estimated times are provided. Hassling the agent on your case is unnecessary. Regarding leaving and returning Australia - Bridging Visa class Bs are made available if you have good reasons to be leaving and coming back. I can see this from two sides - my (now ex) wife went through getting temporary then permanent residency in Australia; yes, it was a pain and expensive, but Australia has high standards of living etc, which is why lots of people want to come here. The other side is this - immigration is one of the reasons why there are not enough houses to buy or places to rent, making life difficult for citizens or people who have PR or TR. So if the process of having more immigrants who also require housing is expensive or difficult, I think you'll find a lot of people are not particular sympathetic.
makeitdouble 2y ago
As far as I know, it's par for the course for immigration in most countries I ever heard of. On the other hand, anyone who heard of consistently nice immigration procedure for normal people (not Messi) should chime in. From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives (denying entry to someone who would have been fine) as candidates will probably try again anyway, and no one will come after them for their shitty procedures as by definition applicants aren't full voting citizens and stay in a weaker position possibly all their life (imagine filing a complaint and having your name on a black list the rest of your immigration life, even if that list probably doesn't exist. That fear alone is enough to let a lot of things slide)
- barbazoo 2y ago
  Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany. In Germany it's often not clear what status a process is in and no way to get updates. There often is no web portal or anything like that, it's nuts. For instance you submit an application for the retention of your German passport and then basically wait 2+ years for the answer to come back. No one answered my questions. It's very frustrating. On top of that I got threatened with the BKA if I didn't surrender certain documents without ever having been asked to in the first place. Straight to escalation. It's just very unpleasant. Maybe that should be their motto.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Yes, the country needs to be both competent and strongly willing to court new comers and permanent residents in the first place. On your experience, it really feels like a PITA. It won't help, but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on, if your submission has been forgotten or is contentious. There's no recourse as long as you haven't been refused, so it's limbo until something happens. People are right to bitch about these lengthy and utterly frustrating procedures, I just don't see a way out of it short of being rich, famous or finding a loophole that lets you force a government agency do something in a timely manner without getting a target on your back. To note, France had much progress in the last decades, in that bullshit requirements were made illegal a few years ago. At least you can check everything needed on an official site and not be subjected to petty additional requirements when dealing with the local entity (yes, that was a thing, probably to make it extra hard for specific portions of the population to properly file procedures)
rtpg 2y ago
I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I’m not for stricter rules but I’ve heard this from several people (I think people in the US as well) and it seems like “permit to enter/leave” is a very weird structure instead of “permit to be here”. I think most immigration offices in the world are pretty much black boxes, mainly because that’s their coping mechanism to deal with the influx of bargaining from rejections they would otherwise have. But it would be nice to have… some proof of progress.
- troupo 2y ago
  > I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. In many countries this is viewed as "it's not your fault, it's the state's fault that the state hasn't processed your application yet, so we will not punish you for the state's tardiness"
  - rtpg 2y ago
    Hmmm… that makes more sense. My experience was getting a visa automatically extended for N months on application, and applications not ever being processed slower than that. But I can totally see the US having wild backlog, for example
    - troupo 2y ago
      In Sweden I waited for my citizenship for almost two years, but yeah it surely sucks
- ant6n 2y ago
  This exists in Canada as well. Ad long as u apply for the next resident permit (e.g. student permit) before the old one expires u have an „implied status“ that continues as long as u don’t leave the country.
- csomar 2y ago
  > I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I think most countries are like this. Essentially, you are in a "on-hold" status until immigration decides your fate. It's supposed to be temporary but it can take years depending on the country and the circumstance.
anovikov 2y ago
That happens in many countries and usually experience is exactly the same
niemandhier 2y ago
My sympathy for your troubles, but please keep in mind: Everybody is processing Ukranians and Arabs. The system was never meant for such a rapid influx of people. The people working on immigration are not lazy or unmotivated, they are exhausted.
- jamil7 2y ago
  Have you gone through the process? The system wasn’t “designed” at all, it’s completely broken and chaotic. It is 100% the fault of this system and not that of the immigrants going through it. Some of the people involved can also be extremely unpleasant to deal with, even if you speak German.
  - niemandhier 2y ago
    I accompanied several friends through the process. My observation was that by simply changing the view on what is happening and extrapolating how to act based on that one can achieve quite a lot. I told people the following: 1. The person dealing with you is not there to help you, they are simply executing an act of governance. Rather than wanting them to help you, try to help them close their tickt. 2. You are the type of immigrant people actually want. These popele see lots of drama, lies, heartbreak and hopelessness. If you are pleasant and well prepared they will probably like working on your case since it will not make them feel bad. 3. Things take time. Be as early as possible with everything and realize that there early is a way to speed things up. Keeping those three things to heart worked very well. That does not make things faster, but it takes a lot of frustration out of the process.
    - Ratelman 2y ago
      This is a brilliant view and probably applies to most situations when a person has to process something - not just government and not just Germany. Very, very few people outright don't want to help - if you come in trying to be the light in their day, they'll WANT to help you get your things done quickly and efficiently, and vice versa. A kind reminder, thanks @niemandhier
    - 2y ago
Simon_ORourke 2y ago
I went down to the local Ausländerbehörde in Berlin (a place where foreigners register with the state), having very very minimal German. I was promptly handed a form in German to fill out. More than slightly flustered and in a bit of rush to get it done, I put down "25" in a box that I thought was age, but in actuality was the number of times you were married. Never much helped my application that I think!
- sokols 2y ago
  That's strange, I remember those forms were trilingual, 12 years ago. German, English and French.
- Hendrikto 2y ago
  > I did not understand what I was doing, so I just did something random, and it did not work out for me. Sounds like that one was largely on you…
jajko 2y ago
This happened to me recently in Switzerland (canton Geneve for insiders, that already explains a bit), but for 12 months. After being here for 10+ years straight, fully working. Existence of my whole family here and our whole life depended on it, yet I clealy hit a very incompetent (and completely unreachable) bureaucrat. My boss went through same process during mine, 3 weeks and done. The difference? He is from western part of EU, I am from eastern. Shouldn't make a difference just like colour of skin shouldn't, but it does, in 1000 ways, subtle or not, but this was by far the worst and coming from state/canton. Utterly miserable and prolonged experience, being in legal vacuum with small kids, while doing everything precisely and timely just like Swiss do and like to see in immigrants. Lost quite a few ideals about Switzerland during those desperate times.
- egorfine 2y ago
  My friend has the same experience in Geneve. He is living here for like 20 years and still has to fight every year or so for the permit extension.
julian_t 2y ago
The same kind of thing happens in the US. A relative (a Brit) needed to renew his visa, put in the application and heard nothing for months, and a immigration lawyer told him that it could take over a year to process. But the lawyer also said that it would be worth trying a consulate overseas, as they were often a lot more efficient. So (as his wife had business in Berlin) he made an appointment with the consulate in Frankfurt. From interview to getting his passport back with visa - five days.
ktosobcy 2y ago
Uhm... In Chile I was in same limbo for almost 4 years - my temp residency expired, before the expiration had option to either leave the country or request permanent residency. I opted for the latter, submitted all the documents and... waited almost 3 years for the resolution. In the meantime I had my ID but it expired and I couldn't request new one. Supposedly with a certificate that I'm in the process of getting permanent residency I could use the expired ID but lots of institutions, especially banks, would simply ignore the law and reject the ID as invalid...

nicbou 2y ago

Mine too! My residence permit expired in February, and my appointment is in July. I expect to have a valid residence title again by end of August. Mind you, I applied in December. I will not be able to travel out of the country for most of the summer as I wouldn't be allowed to reenter. They refused multiple times to issue the temporary permit that I'm legally entitled to. I'm having a lawyer ask again, this time with the threat of a lawsuit. It's such a common problem that I had to write a detailed article about it. People miss weddings and funerals because the immigration office is months late. The number of lawsuits due to inaction is growing exponentially since 2019.

chironjit 2y ago
I'll one up you and say that it's so broken, there are lots of people that basically live on ranges of exceptions. In my case, I was told I was not eligible for the visa I needed but when I spoke to a migration consultant who knew the process, they managed to get it done. I was pretty shocked as this wink, wink, nod, nod style system is not something I expected from this country.
- nicbou 2y ago
  Yes, bureaucrats can act as gatekeepers for things that you are legally entitled to, and create various bureaucratic hurdles. It's usually mere thoroughness, sometimes incompetence, and if you cross them, vindictiveness. I was told more than once by very knowledgeable people that if you anger a case worker, they can and will make your life hard by nitpicking every little detail and asking for as many documents as they can. This happens for example if you get angry at their incompetence, or if you sue them for inaction (although in Berlin they see it as normal business by now).
  - bratwurst3000 2y ago
    This is so true . There is a word for it in German… behördenwillkür. Mean they can do with you as they please. Advocate insurance is a must here. I hate the bureaucracy here. Lawyers are the only help
    - nicbou 2y ago
      Legal insurance does not cover immigration a lot of the time
- ffsm8 2y ago
  Germany's head of state was involved in the biggest financial scandal of its existence and forgave a corrupt bank that stole millions of taxes just a few years before going into office. corruption is spreading like a plague with no consequence in sight for anyone involved.
  - tcmb 2y ago
    Olaf Scholz is the head of the government, Germany's head of state is its president, currently Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
  - marenkay 2y ago
    If you believe corruption is just spreading now, you missed every single politician since the founding of Germany. Or every other country on the whole planet therefore. Wikipedia documents that well enough.
- fps_doug 2y ago
  This sounds like all of you are living in Berlin, which is known as "failed state" to the rest of Germany. ;-) It varies form city to city, I live in one that I'd say is an exception on the positive side: Most clerks in the various offices are actually helpful and even giving you hints. I had to renew my passport in January and got an appointment the next day. I got the appointment online(!) in Germany(!!). Passport could be collected 4 weeks later. Meanwhile an ex-colleague who lives in Berlin had to wrestle with his nearest office to even get an appointment for a passport renewal, then gave up and made an appointment with the office in the neighboring district, where it was still a 4 weeks wait. He told me there are districts where it takes up to 6 months. I guess if you want pain and suffering, move to Berlin. :o)
  - apflkx 2y ago
    Unfortunately, this is not just a problem limited to Berlin :-( [1][2] It's been an absolute mess trying to secure my wife's settlement permit ("Niederlassungserlaubnis"). She has a german Master's degree, works in a government-funded research facility, and has been in the system since December 2022. We've now been ghosted for 14 months, only to be told to make an appointment to provide additional documents (which were not on the 'required documents' list they initially handed to us). After checking the appointment booking website to no avail, I came up with a python script that sends a notification to our phones when a new appointment pops up. It took 40 days of scraping until a new free appointment was available, only to be allowed to provide paper documents in person. Adding to that, every six months, her employer threatens to fire her if she can't prove her legal status in Germany. So she's constantly jumping through hoops to get this temporary paper permit called "Fiktionsbescheinigung" just to keep her job. It's a hassle, costs €13 each time, and involves cycling through multiple unhelpful bureaucrats at the Ausländerbehörde's hotline (they do not answer emails) until finding one that very reluctantly produces this document. All of this is beyond frustrating. [1] https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/muenchen-kvr-auslaenderbehoerde-dieter-reiter-video-chaos-studenten-aufenthalt-schlange-zr-13570759.html https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/muenchen-kvr-auslaenderbeh... [2] https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/auslaenderbehoerde-arbeit-stuttgart-arbeitskraefte-mangel-verwaltung-chaos-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/a...
wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
Try Spain, takes years
- pezezin 2y ago
  I guess that depends on the city and the procedure, but I had to replace my DNI last summer and it took me less than 30 minutes, and they gave me the new one on the spot. In comparison I also had to renew my Japanese foreign card and later my ID card, and both procedures were a royal PITA, and in both cases I had to wait a month to get the new card.
  - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
    Yeah had a close person getting passport after marriage, took years, they made a mistake, another 1.5 years. Took over 5 years in the end. Lawyers making mistakes, civil cervants making mistakes, making mistakes themselves. Big mess. They are actually breaking EU law while doing these things.
    - ricardobayes 2y ago
      That actually was very interesting for me, living in Spain, how extremely common mistakes were in data entry, generally. If anyone hands you a form to check your details, you can almost guarantee to find some issue. I've never noticed this living in any other country yet.
nixass 2y ago
Folks, you can travel outside of Germany for sure, as long as you stay inside Schengen.
- mkesper 2y ago
  Please add a link for people relying on this info.
  - stavros 2y ago
    A link to what? Travel within the Schengen area is unrestricted, you can drive or fly to wherever you want and nobody will check passports.
    - rkachowski 2y ago
      This isn't true, this year I have been on a train from Marseille to Berlin and German police checked everyone on the train for passports at the border specifically to check residence validity - and removed one passenger with a residence permit as he attempted to reenter Germany (he was informed he was not initially permitted to leave)
      - stavros 2y ago
        Those are random spot checks, there's no border between France and Germany where everyone's passport will be checked.
        bondarchuk 2y ago
        "nobody will check passports" "Those are random spot checks" So there are random spot checks where people will check passports. So "nobody will check passports" is false.
        stavros 2y ago
        Fine, word lawyer, "nobody will check passports above the base rate of passport checking you may get anywhere, including any random trip".

callalex 2y ago

From a USA perspective, I find that usually when a bureaucratic process is hopelessly broken, it is because a small portion of the population actively hates the people that would benefit from the process and want to harm them. However they cannot legally or popularly discriminate against them so instead they destroy the processes that benefit the hated group. Do you get that impression where you are too?

physhster 2y ago
Given the amount of immigrants in Europe in general and in Germany in particular, I don't think they are trying to deter people. Or if they are trying it's not working. The incompetence is not confined to immigration, it's pretty much everywhere. Same goes for France actually.
- philsnow 2y ago
  The impression I got from the last time I was in Germany (some ~7 years ago), there's a going concern among at least some people that a certain ethnicity of immigrants is "taking over". This might be a pearl-clutching minority, or I may have completely misread the situation.
  - Escapado 2y ago
    German reporting in. Disclaimer: I am biased as I think immigration is great and I wish the process was easier and faster for those seeking to live in Germany. I think your observation is sadly very correct and this minority is very well measurable and concerningly large and growing in a lot of places. Just look at how many people vote for the AfD. Those are the ones having that concern. Luckily some places(e.g. Hamburg, Berlin) are on average more open to foreigners than others (e.g. Sachsen).
  - nicbou 2y ago
    There seems to be a growing frustration about asylum seekers who moved to Germany and did not adopt German values, a theme you will find in every country. It's scary because the party that complains the most about it is gaining traction, and it convinces centrist parties to change their stance on immigration. It's not a pearl-clutching minority anymore, but a politically advantageous position. As an immigrant, I feel like we're about to live a variation of the Niemöller poem. "First they came for the asylum seekers..."

type0 2y ago

They use this book called "Der Process" as a manual

rcbdev 2y ago
You can really feel that Kafka was an Austrian in his writings.
- generic92034 2y ago
  Is that a correct assignment? Austria-Hungary was a thing back then, but someone born and mostly living in Prague I would not call Austrian today.
  - nic547 2y ago
    AFAIK Prague (and Bohemia) had a sizeable german speaking minority until the end of WW2 when they got expelled, so Prague not feeling Austrian today isn't surprising.

kanbara 2y ago

mine took like a few weeks and was very painless, even in berlin. anecdata ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

egorfine 2y ago
It used to be painless indeed but only and solely in Berlin. Perhaps too many software developers in the city government of Berlin broke the process to a point it now actually works.

Havoc 2y ago

It’s not just Germany - I’ve got a similar can’t leave situation in UK currently

ab_testing 2y ago

Not saying Germany is slow, but that is one area where US is far behind. 21 Months - This is the current processing time for a green card after you have sent in all the paperwork to the USCIS for processing. During that time, you get no updates and of-course if you leave the country without AP, your application is considered to be abandoned. https://imgur.com/a/t8rYOjv https://imgur.com/a/t8rYOjv

cscurmudgeon 2y ago
Part of the reason is the green card queue size for US is much larger than that for Germany. The USCIS website also shows your status and gives a rough timeline.
a_bonobo 2y ago
It's the same in Australia; when you apply for permanent residency your application goes into a black hole. I wanted to learn more about my status and all I got back from the immigration people was 'the agent processing your application will contact you. We do not give out contact details for your agent. You will have to wait'. It took about 8 months. Once your 'regular' visa expires you go onto a bridging visa which same, you can't really leave the country. It's expensive as hell too: I think in the end I had a total cost of $7,000, just in application fees. Sounds like immigration is horrible everywhere.
- mb_72 2y ago
  8 months is not that long; these days the wait is longer. However, you are aware of how long the wait will be, there information is right there on the Australian Immigration website: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-processing-times https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-pr... Providing updates to everyone waiting simply wastes time and resources; again, you know roughly how long it's going to take as the estimated times are provided. Hassling the agent on your case is unnecessary. Regarding leaving and returning Australia - Bridging Visa class Bs are made available if you have good reasons to be leaving and coming back. I can see this from two sides - my (now ex) wife went through getting temporary then permanent residency in Australia; yes, it was a pain and expensive, but Australia has high standards of living etc, which is why lots of people want to come here. The other side is this - immigration is one of the reasons why there are not enough houses to buy or places to rent, making life difficult for citizens or people who have PR or TR. So if the process of having more immigrants who also require housing is expensive or difficult, I think you'll find a lot of people are not particular sympathetic.

makeitdouble 2y ago

As far as I know, it's par for the course for immigration in most countries I ever heard of. On the other hand, anyone who heard of consistently nice immigration procedure for normal people (not Messi) should chime in. From a incentive strucutre POV, they lose nothing from false positives (denying entry to someone who would have been fine) as candidates will probably try again anyway, and no one will come after them for their shitty procedures as by definition applicants aren't full voting citizens and stay in a weaker position possibly all their life (imagine filing a complaint and having your name on a black list the rest of your immigration life, even if that list probably doesn't exist. That fear alone is enough to let a lot of things slide)

barbazoo 2y ago
Other countries that see immigration as an opportunity have systems that are far far superior to that of Germany. In Germany it's often not clear what status a process is in and no way to get updates. There often is no web portal or anything like that, it's nuts. For instance you submit an application for the retention of your German passport and then basically wait 2+ years for the answer to come back. No one answered my questions. It's very frustrating. On top of that I got threatened with the BKA if I didn't surrender certain documents without ever having been asked to in the first place. Straight to escalation. It's just very unpleasant. Maybe that should be their motto.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  Yes, the country needs to be both competent and strongly willing to court new comers and permanent residents in the first place. On your experience, it really feels like a PITA. It won't help, but Japan and France are basically the same. You'll see procedures listed as typically taking 2~3 months, check back every now and then, and low and behold a year and half later you have absolutely no idea of what's going on, if your submission has been forgotten or is contentious. There's no recourse as long as you haven't been refused, so it's limbo until something happens. People are right to bitch about these lengthy and utterly frustrating procedures, I just don't see a way out of it short of being rich, famous or finding a loophole that lets you force a government agency do something in a timely manner without getting a target on your back. To note, France had much progress in the last decades, in that bullshit requirements were made illegal a few years ago. At least you can check everything needed on an official site and not be subjected to petty additional requirements when dealing with the local entity (yes, that was a thing, probably to make it extra hard for specific portions of the population to properly file procedures)

rtpg 2y ago

I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I’m not for stricter rules but I’ve heard this from several people (I think people in the US as well) and it seems like “permit to enter/leave” is a very weird structure instead of “permit to be here”. I think most immigration offices in the world are pretty much black boxes, mainly because that’s their coping mechanism to deal with the influx of bargaining from rejections they would otherwise have. But it would be nice to have… some proof of progress.

troupo 2y ago
> I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. In many countries this is viewed as "it's not your fault, it's the state's fault that the state hasn't processed your application yet, so we will not punish you for the state's tardiness"
- rtpg 2y ago
  Hmmm… that makes more sense. My experience was getting a visa automatically extended for N months on application, and applications not ever being processed slower than that. But I can totally see the US having wild backlog, for example
  - troupo 2y ago
    In Sweden I waited for my citizenship for almost two years, but yeah it surely sucks
ant6n 2y ago
This exists in Canada as well. Ad long as u apply for the next resident permit (e.g. student permit) before the old one expires u have an „implied status“ that continues as long as u don’t leave the country.
csomar 2y ago
> I am a bit flummoxed how you can stay in the country after a permit expires. I think most countries are like this. Essentially, you are in a "on-hold" status until immigration decides your fate. It's supposed to be temporary but it can take years depending on the country and the circumstance.

anovikov 2y ago

That happens in many countries and usually experience is exactly the same

niemandhier 2y ago

My sympathy for your troubles, but please keep in mind: Everybody is processing Ukranians and Arabs. The system was never meant for such a rapid influx of people. The people working on immigration are not lazy or unmotivated, they are exhausted.

jamil7 2y ago
Have you gone through the process? The system wasn’t “designed” at all, it’s completely broken and chaotic. It is 100% the fault of this system and not that of the immigrants going through it. Some of the people involved can also be extremely unpleasant to deal with, even if you speak German.
- niemandhier 2y ago
  I accompanied several friends through the process. My observation was that by simply changing the view on what is happening and extrapolating how to act based on that one can achieve quite a lot. I told people the following: 1. The person dealing with you is not there to help you, they are simply executing an act of governance. Rather than wanting them to help you, try to help them close their tickt. 2. You are the type of immigrant people actually want. These popele see lots of drama, lies, heartbreak and hopelessness. If you are pleasant and well prepared they will probably like working on your case since it will not make them feel bad. 3. Things take time. Be as early as possible with everything and realize that there early is a way to speed things up. Keeping those three things to heart worked very well. That does not make things faster, but it takes a lot of frustration out of the process.
  - Ratelman 2y ago
    This is a brilliant view and probably applies to most situations when a person has to process something - not just government and not just Germany. Very, very few people outright don't want to help - if you come in trying to be the light in their day, they'll WANT to help you get your things done quickly and efficiently, and vice versa. A kind reminder, thanks @niemandhier
  - 2y ago

Simon_ORourke 2y ago

I went down to the local Ausländerbehörde in Berlin (a place where foreigners register with the state), having very very minimal German. I was promptly handed a form in German to fill out. More than slightly flustered and in a bit of rush to get it done, I put down "25" in a box that I thought was age, but in actuality was the number of times you were married. Never much helped my application that I think!

sokols 2y ago
That's strange, I remember those forms were trilingual, 12 years ago. German, English and French.
Hendrikto 2y ago
> I did not understand what I was doing, so I just did something random, and it did not work out for me. Sounds like that one was largely on you…

jajko 2y ago

This happened to me recently in Switzerland (canton Geneve for insiders, that already explains a bit), but for 12 months. After being here for 10+ years straight, fully working. Existence of my whole family here and our whole life depended on it, yet I clealy hit a very incompetent (and completely unreachable) bureaucrat. My boss went through same process during mine, 3 weeks and done. The difference? He is from western part of EU, I am from eastern. Shouldn't make a difference just like colour of skin shouldn't, but it does, in 1000 ways, subtle or not, but this was by far the worst and coming from state/canton. Utterly miserable and prolonged experience, being in legal vacuum with small kids, while doing everything precisely and timely just like Swiss do and like to see in immigrants. Lost quite a few ideals about Switzerland during those desperate times.

egorfine 2y ago
My friend has the same experience in Geneve. He is living here for like 20 years and still has to fight every year or so for the permit extension.

julian_t 2y ago

The same kind of thing happens in the US. A relative (a Brit) needed to renew his visa, put in the application and heard nothing for months, and a immigration lawyer told him that it could take over a year to process. But the lawyer also said that it would be worth trying a consulate overseas, as they were often a lot more efficient. So (as his wife had business in Berlin) he made an appointment with the consulate in Frankfurt. From interview to getting his passport back with visa - five days.

ktosobcy 2y ago

Uhm... In Chile I was in same limbo for almost 4 years - my temp residency expired, before the expiration had option to either leave the country or request permanent residency. I opted for the latter, submitted all the documents and... waited almost 3 years for the resolution. In the meantime I had my ID but it expired and I couldn't request new one. Supposedly with a certificate that I'm in the process of getting permanent residency I could use the expired ID but lots of institutions, especially banks, would simply ignore the law and reject the ID as invalid...