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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

67 points by toss1 3y ago

nabla9 3y ago
Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a collective agreement is nationwide and covers over 50% of the workforce in a relevant sector, it becomes generally applicable and binding even for companies that did not agree on the terms.
- tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
  According to Tesla, the agreement which employees have in Sweden is already better than the minimum bar set by union, so Teslas issues appears to more out of principle than out of actual issues with the agreement itself. Or Tesla is lying and the agreement with employees is not actually better.
  - el-dude-arino 3y ago
    Somehow I'd bet a large amount of money that Tesla is lying, considering that's what Elon is best at.
  - mongol 3y ago
    Both parties act out of principles. The conflict is about power dynamics, first and foremost.
    - eddtries 3y ago
      Yup, and one is the principles of a large car company from another country while the other is the social underpinnings of the countries entire labour market going back a century
      - mongol 3y ago
        That is exaggregated. This is IF Metall vs Tesla, not Sweden vs Tesla.
        drakonka 3y ago
        It isn't just IF Metall vs Tesla in practice. The result of this whole thing will impact Swedish labor standards as a whole by setting a critical precedent for both companies and unions. I'm not part of IF Metall, but also not naive enough to think this power struggle won't affect me or people I care about working in Sweden in the future.
        mongol 3y ago
        It will affect you either way. It is difficult to tell exactly how but a union win will embolden the unions in Sweden general, and it is not certain that is an all out win. I realize that embolden is not a neutral word, but what is on the other side of the balance scale is investments in new jobs in Sweden vs elsewhere. Perhaps the balance will still be a net benefit to Sweden but we will see. I would have an easier time to understand the strike if it was about material conditions such as salary etc, but now it is an all-out power struggle about the type of agreement.
        drakonka 3y ago
        The fact that it will affect me either way is kind of my point in saying this is not just IF Metall vs Tesla. I consider a union win to be the best outcome here.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        And for that reason it is the most likely outcome too. 'When in Rome...' Tesla has a lot to lose here: Norway, Sweden and to a lesser extent Denmark and Finland are early adopters and Tesla has large market share there. If they turn those countries against them it will have repercussions all over Europe. I'm in NL and have already heard people mention this conflict here and how it affects their view of Tesla as a brand and I think that's not unique. Pick your battles and all that.
  - kioleanu 3y ago
    I’ve heard some form of this from every company fighting unions. If that’s really the case, wouldn’t it be beneficial to the finances of the company overall if the union is requesting less benefits?
    - eddtries 3y ago
      Unions set the lower bar but if you want to be competitive you still offer higher rates. I guess Musk could sign this and give everyone a pay cut!
      - sundaeofshock 3y ago
        It depends on the contract negotiated by the union. In theory, the union can put a floor on pay, with cap and allow individual workers to negotiate higher wages if they are so inclined. The US sports leagues offer the best example of this.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Labor contracts cover a variety of issues, Tesla is cherry-picking their comparison IMO.
  - fl7305 3y ago
    Does Tesla have a binding agreement with the workers on how to handle layoffs when business is bad?
    - aeyes 3y ago
      Do they need to? That's what laws are for, in the case of Sweden it's the Employment Protection Act. The union can negotiate a better deal but it's not wild west at-will employment like in the US.
      - fl7305 3y ago
        This is about mass layoffs, not terminating individual employees for "personal reasons". I am not an expert, but I think the union claims that this is one thing that is now worse for the Spotify employees who are laid off? Meaning, sure, there is a degree of basic legal protection, but during layoffs, having a collective bargaining agreement will give you better conditions than that?
        aeyes 3y ago
        This law also covers layoffs, even to the point where it dictates in what order employees can be laid off. In general the IF Metall collective agreements don't have any additional worker protections for the case of mass layoffs or individual terminations, they usually only cover temporary lay offs. I haven't seen what they are actually asking for in the case of Tesla Sweden. In Germany the discussion is mostly related to wages, safety/accidents and shift planning.
        xorcist 3y ago
        This is a massive simplification to the point of being misleading. Those laws are largely superseded by contract law, which is exactly why collective agreements are made, and the order in which layoffs are made are usually among the first to be negotiated. There are lawyers that base their entire careers on such matters.
  - mnsc 3y ago
    Swede here. That is what every company that doesn't want to play according to the Swedish model says. I worked at one of those companies and yes, pay and benefits were better, up until I reached a certain age where the "collective deal" would have been better for me. Was this tiny detail communicated clearly to me? Of course not, I heard it from a colleague who was older and had been at other companies. Was it a lie that "we have a better deal"? I wouldn't say so. Am I still at that company? No.
  - lawn 3y ago
    One issue with the work environment is that the workers get a 1 hour max time to find bugs. If they take longer than that they get a mark against them and may cause them to lose their job. This rewards workers who cheat and just send away the cars within the time constraint. This is an example of something they want to fix.
  - McDyver 3y ago
    They have it better now, until they don't... Who knows which change in the wind would make Musk change his opinion and make conditions worse (see "I'm a free speech absolutist (until I'm not, and I shut up every voice opposing me)". With a collective agreement, he can throw as many tantrums he wants and the workers will be protected.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules and that the whole country is allowed to club you into submission if you don't follow them. At this point it seems that at least some form of legal obligation (you give an example) would clarify what is understood to be compulsory... Transparent rule of law is also a model for a good reason. From the outside it's a little odd (at least to me) that the Swedes seem adamant that Tesla must accept a collective agreement and also that there is no need to make that the law. That's the peculiarity, IMHO.
  - ArchOversight 3y ago
    There are unwritten rules everywhere. The nice thing is that when the unions in Sweden do strike unlike in the US where maybe they will get some support, there is massive groundswell of support behind them to actually get the company to make a change. The fact that the whole country collectively agrees gives the workers far more power.
    - cbeach 3y ago
      How does a country give workers more power? By creating a business-friendly environment. The more companies operate in your country, the more choice of employers. Treated badly? Go work for a competitor. That’s how you put pressure on companies to treat staff better.
      - notaustinpowers 3y ago
        Well, we see how that's going in America and it's a race to the bottom. 10 years experience, bachelor's degree required, starting pay of $35k/yr. A society cannot rely on a business whose sole motivation is profitability to provide power to what they view as a liability, not an asset.
gafage 3y ago
Tesla should leave the market and let Swedes buy automobiles from their own brands... like... err... Saab which no longer exists... or Volvo, which now belongs to a Chinese conglomerate...
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  Eh, plenty of decent cars from other brands (most better than Tesla). None of the other brands have issues to operate in Sweden. I think the Swedish will be fine.
- tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
  If Tesla leave Sweden, we will still have many many brands to pick from. Here in Sweden we can buy cars from other companies.
  - throttlebody 3y ago
    A Tesla car is pretty much off the shopping list for me, due to Elon's behavior
- tyingq 3y ago
  Or, they could research the business climate and laws in a country before establishing a presence. Then feel free to buck established practice, but at least know the potential consequences.
  - schiffern 3y ago
    Sure, in that case maybe Tesla would never have entered Sweden, but what good is that? It's bad for Sweden, Tesla, and the environment. Discovering this Swedish 'quirk' then vs. now wouldn't make Tesla any more likely to roll over to extralegal bullying tactics.
    - LesZedCB 3y ago
      they aren't extralegal. the strike actions are protected by law. they are exercising their legal right every bit as much as tesla is by suing (and losing).
hiatus 3y ago
Is PostNord like the post office or like fedex? If the former, that seems crazy to me. Imagine the post office just refused to deliver your electricity bill despite the electric company paying for a stamp. If it's the latter it makes a lot more sense.
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago
  They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).
  - hiatus 3y ago
    > There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees). Can the USPS outright refuse to deliver all valid and legally paid for mail from a sender? I don't think so but can be corrected.
    - notaustinpowers 3y ago
      No, as most USPS employees are considered "quasi-federal" employees and US law prohibits any federal employees from striking. They can protest and have some of the usual Union protections but striking can lead to them being fired, fined, or imprisoned. As well, there are specific regulations in place for USPS workers to deliver and process all mail (barring certain safety and health issues with the package or delivery).
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      The USPS has a "universal service obligation", so no. The US postal strike of 1970 (which I hadn't heard of before) was apparently illegal, but when a huge number of people perform an illegal act it's often not in the government interest to fire them, but to instead negotiate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_postal_strike_of_1970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_postal_strike_of... : President Nixon appeared on national television and ordered the employees back to work, but his address only stiffened the resolve of the existing strikers and angered workers in another 671 locations in other cities into walking out as well. Workers in other government agencies also announced they would strike if Nixon pursued legal action against the postal employees.[7]
mytailorisrich 3y ago
> "The district court has decided that PostNord should not be forced make deliveries to Tesla before the case is closed," the Solna district court said in a statement. Just another interim decision, apparently.
ysofunny 3y ago
does this mean sweeden is going to import chinese EVs??
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Well, as it happens Polestar is doing well as a JV between Volvo and Geely. HQ is in Sweden, cars are produced in China. I see a few around me here in the UK now.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Some of the EVs are produced in the states now (South Carolina?). I'm not sure if any of the EVs are actually produced in Sweden, at least I can't find anything on the internet.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  They already do? https://electrek.co/2023/08/03/chinese-electric-suv-top-selling-ev-sweden-july/ https://electrek.co/2023/08/03/chinese-electric-suv-top-sell...
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  We are quite capable of producing our own vehicles and batteries Volvo Cars, Polestar, Volvo AB, Scania, Koenigsegg, Northvolt and also new ones like Emily GT, Candella, Einride etc Even our own fighter jets, submarines and military ships through Saab.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
There are two lawsuits. 1. to force the government to allow Tesla to pick up license plates directly from them rather than using PostNord. 2. to force PostNord to deliver license plates. Preliminary rulings are for Tesla on #1 and against Tesla on #2. That seems right to me.
jamesTee49 3y ago
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654535ff 3y ago
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simplypeter 3y ago
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oldpersonintx 3y ago
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TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago
Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38559673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38559673
SwedishExpat 3y ago
This article uses the words "workers' decision" several times which sounds like individual workers are deciding to not deliver to Tesla. The truth is that a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action. So these workers are legally striking against Tesla too, it's not just an ad hoc decision made by individuals. PostNord employees could not just decide to stop sending parcels to a company without it being part of a directed strike.
- hnbad 3y ago
  We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too so this doesn't strike me as surprising even if you could argue that it's not really their decision if it's a representative system rather than one of delegation (where each delegate represents one or more people directly who can at any time withdraw their vote from them and vote directly or choose a different delegate). I don't know how Swedish unions are structured though. But yes, this is a solidarity strike and should be described as such to avoid confusion or ambiguity. It's interesting to see this play out as solidarity strikes are explicitly forbidden by law in my country (Germany) and while strikes and unions are granted many legal protections (e.g. a company under strike is not allowed to hire temporary strike breakers to substitute the striking workers, though they can use their existing non-striking workers), the law also explicitly restricts strikes to the company the workers are employed by. This is presumably meant to "tame" unions and prevent larger organized action, solidarity strikes or even a general strike (which would not be placing demands on the employer but e.g. the government).
  - sakjur 3y ago
    In Sweden it’d be illegal if there was a collective bargaining agreement in place and the strike wasn’t aligned with the terms set out therein. The law explicitly doesn’t extend the same protections for companies that don’t sign a CBA.
  - SwedishExpat 3y ago
    The point I wanted to clarify is that if I worked at PostNord I couldn't decide to stop sending post to a company I disagree with, or a political party I dislike, etc. This is union-led industrial action. I saw some confusion in other posts on the topic where people thought this was individual action.
rob74 3y ago
> A Swedish court said on Thursday that PostNord did not, for the time being, need to deliver licence plates to the electric carmaker that were being blocked by the postal service’s workers, in the latest twist in a battle over collective bargaining agreements. How exactly is this done? Do they refuse to accept the license plates when the Swedish Transport Agency wants to drop them off? Or do they accept the plates, but refuse to deliver them? The former would be more or less ok, but the latter would amount to theft (taking the property of someone else and refusing to give it to them). I don't agree with Tesla's anti-union practices, just curious...
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  It's not clear to me who owns the license plate. Maybe it's the state who is the owner. I know the old plate must be destroyed when a new plate is issued.
- victorbjorklund 3y ago
  The latter. They dont deliever any mail.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  The postal workers doesn’t care what it is that’s delivered to Tesla, nothing is delivered, but apparently Tesla is only upset about the license plates So it’s all about the receiver, and it’s not the only reason one can have to refuse to deliver, in other cases safety and work environment has been cited. I’m not sure what happens with the mail though, if it’s sent back to the sender or put in piles
- knallfrosch 3y ago
  They just don't deliver the license plates. Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves. I imagine they're just thrown into the corner of a warehouse somewhere.
  - scbrg 3y ago
    > Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves. No. You cannot waltz into a postal center, say "oh, that there stuff is mine" and then leave with it.
throw_a_grenade 3y ago
> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.
- tallanvor 3y ago
  Of course it's ridiculous. Unions have historically been key to helping equalize the power between employers and employees. Musk knows this and it's clear that he thinks of people working for his companies as peasants that only deserve what he's willing to dole out.
  - port515 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      The Nordics, famously bankrupt for almost 100 years.
  - nprateem 3y ago
    I think he meant he doesn't like when the peasants rise up against the lords.
  - hospitalJail 3y ago
    My wife owns a company, it boggles my mind how the employees underestimate their strength. They work for fractions and they are necessary for the company. If a worker knows an owner is desperate, the worker can win. The opposite is true too.
    - mission_failed 3y ago
      An individual has families to feed and mortgages to pay
- suoduandao3 3y ago
cbmuser 3y ago
The article does not explain the background. What relation does Tesla have to Swedish workers? Is there a Tesla Gigafactory in Sweden?
- piva00 3y ago
  No, this is only about repair shops. Which makes it all more stupid from Tesla.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    But sympathy strikes goes further and now affects superchargers, offices and even Swedish suppliers to the gigafactory. Lucky for Musk that he picked a Finnish supplier for the Cybertruck steel…
    - Gravityloss 3y ago
      A union in Finland was already asked to support by Swedish unions and they already agreed. But only regarding stuff exported to Sweden. Tesla in Finland already follows the agreements agreed by the unions and the employer representative in the so-called kolmikanta. Because it's the law. Sweden has more loose laws there. Finland had a devastating and bloody civil war with whites and reds and a somewhat different history than Sweden regarding the labor market. IIRC some Finnish union people have tried to export labor union concepts to say China but I've heard that labor activists are persecuted there.
      - SCM-Enthusiast 3y ago
        Yeah - and i bet you that small concession is going to be a huge loss for hydro. I'm sure elon eithier is spinning up his own cyber truck steel line or using a different supplier by the end of the year in spite.
    - bdhcuidbebe 3y ago
      > Lucky for Musk that he picked a Finnish supplier https://efe.com/en/economy/2023-12-07/finnish-union-will-be-part-of-swedish-strike-against-tesla/ https://efe.com/en/economy/2023-12-07/finnish-union-will-be-...
port515 3y ago
Considering all Tesla imports come from Germany or China, I feel Sweden will be on the losing end of this.
- guappa 3y ago
  You have no idea how many teslas there are on the roads in sweden.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  That's not related to this issue. Sweden loses if they allow multinationals to break the Swedish Model. If Tesla decided to never sell a car to Sweden, which is within their rights, Sweden would still have won if the labour market remains in tact. Personally I am 99.9% sure that Tesla will fold eventually, the question is how much PR damage will they have created for themselves in the Nordics/EU before they fold.
  - w1n5t0n99 3y ago
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- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  I find this comment disturbing - you are suggesting that 3 nations combined, some of the richest cointries on earth, lack either power or authority to reign in what a foreign corporstion does on their soil? How do you reconsile that such belief with democracy? Because that set of beliefs is only compatiable with belief in some kind of trans-national oligarchy. Or maybe some sort of America-centeic-colonialism, i am struggling to think of better term.
  - vinay427 3y ago
    I’m not entirely sure what the GP commenter is trying to say, but I’m also not sure how they imply Sweden, Germany, and China are working together, as I think is implied in your comment in that their power or authority is combined. Could you maybe rephrase what you mean, or how you interpreted their comment?
that_guy_iain 3y ago
Why do I have the feeling one of the main outcomes of this is PostNord loses business of deliverying the license plates and other courier gets the tender instead?
- peterpost2 3y ago
  That's tricky in Sweden, PostNord is by a far distance the best delivery mechanism (it customer service still sucks though), if you go far up North or rural many other delivery services are hard to find. There is a lot of things to be said about PostNord but its most reliable.
  - felipemnoa 3y ago
    I really don't think this is tricky at all. If Musk is serious about the fight then I'm sure that for the right price they can find other couriers to meet their needs. Even if they had to pay an order of magnitude more money. It would only be for the short term.
    - noirscape 3y ago
      This isn't possible for Tesla because PostNord currently has the exclusive right to deliver license plates - they literally can't hire any other courier company to do it.
      - xorcist 3y ago
        They could, the next time the contract is up for renegotiation. It would require however that there are other couriers that fulfill their safety requirements with the logistic infrastructure to deliver to the entire country. That's not likely. But entirely within the realm of possibility that someone with deep pockets could start one. However it would not make any difference for Tesla, as that courier would also be unionized. Few other companies would do business with them otherwise, as Tesla is about to find out.
      - that_guy_iain 3y ago
0xDEF 3y ago
Tesla is shooting itself in the foot by not being pragmatic. Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are combined the 3rd biggest market for Tesla. During some months we even edge out China temporarily becoming Tesla's 2nd biggest market. The way our unions are being portrayed by Americans is ridiculous. Even pro-union Americans are making our unions sound far more aggressive and subversive than they actually are. A "blockade" just means no unionized workers and truck drivers want to offload and transport your products and supplies. It doesn't mean a literal blockade.
- godzillabrennus 3y ago
  It does seem penny wise and dollar foolish for Musk/Tesla to be playing these games.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Foolish? From the guy who spent 44 billion on Twitter to then run it into the ground? Noooo, it can't be, Musk is a business genius. /s obviously
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > The way our unions are being portrayed by Americans is ridiculous. Americans policymakers believe in freedom of association only when it suits them. Its cool for Google or banks to close all your accounts without any reason, and make your life impossible. Its wrong for all unions/workers to refuse to work with Google and make their business impossible.
  - randall 3y ago
    This feels very disingenuous, and pretty unfair. I don’t think most Americans think it’s ok for google or banks to act that way, and I also feel very uncomfortable about a sort of “mob rule” system… where informal agreements dictate which businesses are allowed to operate. They both feel weird for roughly the same reasons: arbitrary decisions instead of laws dictate which behavior is tolerated for which group of people. In both cases the rights of individuals seem like they’re subject to the whims of other groups of people, instead of “liberty and justice for all.”
askonomm 3y ago
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pard68 3y ago
So a shipping company is refusing to deliver packages to a specific company? This sounds like a shakedown.
- cornholio 3y ago
  What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. So Tesla has no choice over using PostNord, they are mandated by law to do so to receive their plates, yet a private interest group can arbitrarily deny them access to public services. There is a lot of verbiage about how Tesla is shooting itself in the foot for peanuts, and I guess it's a legitimate position to hold. The far larger elephant in the room however, is a very public example of how a concerted labor action in Sweden can essentially bankrupt any international company setting offices in the country - by denying them access to public services they already paid for in taxes. This is bound to have profound chilling effects on any investor looking at Sweden as anything other than a consumer market into which to dump products.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. Why is it striking? They own PostNord. It's 60% owned by Sweden's government, 40% by Denmark's. It's a state-owned corporation. The US government tends to use USPS for similar reasons.
    - cornholio 3y ago
      Unlike the USPS, which is a a government branch with an universal service obligation, Sweeden has a liberalized postal market. This means PostNord won a public tender and has a contract to deliver services to the Swedish government, regardless of the ownership structure. So, far from being an action of the government itself, this is the doing of a private interest group - the unionized employees of a government contractor - that are thus able to completely sabotage any private company by denying access to essential (and legally mandatory) government services, license plate registration. It's arbitrary private control over a public service. This is striking for any country claiming to uphold rule of law.
onethought 3y ago
Spotify also had a breakdown with unions and its workforce. With no where near the fall out that Tesla is getting. Surely that is a bigger deal than Tesla service centres!? Anti Elon, anti American sentiment?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Different unions.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    Not only that, but the co-founder and CEO of Spotify is also Swedish which means he has some perspective on how unions work in Sweden so he can be pragmatic. Musk lacks any sort of perspective in that market, seemingly.
- mschild 3y ago
  More clicks. Tesla is an American company and has an actual ongoing strike. Spotify is Swedish and there is currently no ongoing strike. If you look for articles in Swedish, you'll see plenty.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  Klarna also had a breakdown with unions but ultimately signed an agreement in the last minute before strikes started to happen. What makes Tesla different from Klarna and Spotify is that Tesla has a global policy to never sign. So Tesla’s Swedish company is prohibited by Tesla to do any kind of negotiation, and that escalates things drastically.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    > What makes Tesla different from Klarna and Spotify The "heritage" between the three is also different. Klarna and Spotify are/was Swedish, they know what going up against a union means, and it often involves going against multiple unions as they all help each other. Tesla clearly have no idea what they were going against, as what is happening now is such an obvious fallout from not understanding the country they're operating in.
Geee 3y ago
The important detail which most people seem to miss is that Tesla's workers aren't behind this. They don't want to unionize, because there's no reason to. The IF Metall union is striking because they just want to get their cut.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > The important detail which most people seem to miss is that Tesla's workers aren't behind this. They don't want to unionize, because there's no reason to. > The IF Metall union is striking because they just want to get their cut. What sort of people do you think IF Metall is made up of? It's the second largest union in Sweden, the people who are a part of the union are also workers at Tesla and other companies. It's not made up of "career-unionists" if that's what you thought.
  - peterfirefly 3y ago
    The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it. It is people working elsewhere -- or rather, the management of the labour unions that organize those other people.
    - VoxPelli 3y ago
      The Tesla employees are behind it. Maybe not all. Some because they are scared of getting punished by Tesla. Something Tesla has indeed threatened with as far as I’m aware.
    - SwedishExpat 3y ago
      > The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it. How do you know this though? Union membership is anonymous. You have no reason to tell your employer you're a member. If there's a strike all employees can legally take part to help stop identification of members. Every member of Tesla could be a union member saying they aren't to avoid pushback by Tesla. That's just as likely as none of them being a member.
    - capableweb 3y ago
i67vw3 3y ago
Tesla should crush pesky swedish unions, no matter what. Buy ports, buy ships, buy trucks, buy electricians, buy a brand new postal service etc. The $26 B cash on hand should be used somewhere, instead of usual executive package and share buyback. Edit:- If my comment is not as per HN guidelines, I am willing to delete it.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > The $26 B cash on hand should be used somewhere, instead of usual executive package and share buyback. Yup, squashing worker rights for corporations everywhere sounds like a good way of spending $26B. > Edit:- If my comment is not as per HN guidelines, I am willing to delete it. Why don't you try to read the guidelines before posting, if you think you might be breaking some guideline? But no, you're getting downvoted not because of breaking the rules, but because of the horrible opinion and lack of care of the common worker.
- givemeethekeys 3y ago
  Why?
- rsynnott 3y ago
  This is one of these cases where one would assume that it's a joke, but because Naughty Old Mr Car is involved, Poe's Law is in full effect. So, assuming you're serious... Eh? Tesla shareholder meeting, 2024. "We're going to spend 26 billion dollars on attempting to build a parallel economy in Sweden." ".... Why?" "Oh, spite, mostly." How do you think that would go over?
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  That’s cute Go and try that somewhere else where it might work. We don’t need any Tesla / douchemobiles here.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  So the first thing I think of here is Toys'R'Us when they tried to break their strikes. Banks stopped processing payments. So if they did try this, they would be unable to pay for any of those things! Plus most employees like their unions. They offer a lot of perks beyond what companies offer. So they'd probably not find any staff.
danielovichdk 3y ago
Fuck these companies that think they can break the unions our former generations built for the purpose of being treated fair. Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets. We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. Same thing goes for Wolt or Uber etc. They are not welcome here if they can't treat workers by their unions commitments. Fuck the money and hail solidarity.
- randall 3y ago
  Can you tell me more about the safety net thing? As an American I actually don’t understand that point. Are you saying culturally your family wouldn’t feel obligated to be a safety net if another family member was struggling? And that the unions defacto provide that sort of guarantee?
  - raoulkent 3y ago
    Generally, you take part of a union as a member. This includes that the union will deal with some negotiations with employers, will help you with legal issues regarding work and will help you with financial aid if you are let go. In Sweden we have no laws for minimum wages and many worker rights are instead regulated through union-employer agreements.
  - maigret 3y ago
    Family can be and is one safety net in Europe, but many people haven't one, or one that can help, or one that wants to help. Nordic countries have been very stable through history and developed a culture where the community goes much farther than family. This helps the society become more resilient in an environment where the climate was historically very harsh and unforgiving. Also it feels great to be able to trust the existing rules in place. You know what to expect, and you feel fine to follow them when you know they are enforced to others as well. You expect others to know and follow the rules as well.
  - throw310822 3y ago
    No, I guess it means that Europeans think that there is a minimum level of welfare that must be guaranteed to everyone, and that minimum level is way above what is granted in the US. This doesn't mean that family members won't also contribute to that "safety net", just that there is a relatively high "acceptable minimum" and the state is expected to make sure that nobody falls below that.
Gravityloss 3y ago
One can see multiple confident and very different explanations in these threads. They can't all be correct at the same time. But at least it's people trying to unwrap what's going on and there are good responses and back and forths et.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  A lot of it comes down to the mental models of Unions - they're very different depending on the country you work in. A lot of people just can't believe a system with powerful Unions can be a good non-corrupt system for employees and employers.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    Very true! And I also think a lot of people doesn’t understand how Sweden/Nordics differ from eg France and assumes unions all across Europe works the same.
sinuhe69 3y ago
The Guardian kept the most picante part for the end. Perhaps because it might undo the “Tesla is losing” sentiment the media want to conjure up? “In a case related to the PostNord action, a court on 27 November ruled that the Swedish Transport Agency must find a way to get licence plates to Tesla. The agency has appealed against the decision. Some Swedish pension funds have urged Tesla to sign the agreement with the union, but have so far held off from selling their shares.”
- Y-bar 3y ago
  Probably because on December 7 a higher court "Hovratten" stayed earlier court's order and the transport agency is still not forced to deliver the plates. Final decision has not been taken. https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/tesla-far-vanta-pa-registreringsskyltar/ https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/tesla-far-vanta-pa-registreringssk...
VoxPelli 3y ago
With the kind of humor that Elon Musk has he should love the Swedish unions, as the Swedish name for union is “fack”, which is pronounced “fuck” Sounds like something he would like, in addition to his S,3,X,Y range of cars
- Ma8ee 3y ago
  So, the Swedish word for union is fackförening, where fack is pronounced exactly as English fuck. There’s a story that Stig Malm, at the time the head of the biggest Swedish union, LO, went to Brussels and orated lengthily about the Swedish fack unions.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Fack around and find out? Tesla is playing this as dumb and tone-deaf as they possibly could.
jmclnx 3y ago
Yet another example on why the Nordics are always rated at the top of the best Countries to live in. If only people in the US weren't cowards when it comes to Businesses, things would be much better.
causality0 3y ago
Refusing to deliver to Tesla is one thing, but when you get to the point of refusing to surrender their property when their representatives show up at the location where it is stored, that's just plain theft.
- knallfrosch 3y ago
  I imagine the post office told them something along the lines of: 'Go fuck yourself'
ilovetux 3y ago
> I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing So, Elon Musk has zero self-awareness. Good to know.
- ZoomerCretin 3y ago
  Maybe he meant he doesn't like anything which reveals or counteracts the lords-and-peasants thing that exists and from which he personally benefits.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    Agreed - his comment makes complete sense if you s/creates a/pierces the veil of/ US companies must be scared as hell about what would happen if we had strong sectoral bargaining and permitted sympathy strikes like Nordic countries.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      "If your mighty hand wills it so the wheels of commerce cease to turn". I forgot where that came from but it is a very powerful reminder who ultimately has power and that only in numbers that power can be effectively wielded.

67 points by toss1 3y ago

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a collective agreement is nationwide and covers over 50% of the workforce in a relevant sector, it becomes generally applicable and binding even for companies that did not agree on the terms.

tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
According to Tesla, the agreement which employees have in Sweden is already better than the minimum bar set by union, so Teslas issues appears to more out of principle than out of actual issues with the agreement itself. Or Tesla is lying and the agreement with employees is not actually better.
- el-dude-arino 3y ago
  Somehow I'd bet a large amount of money that Tesla is lying, considering that's what Elon is best at.
- mongol 3y ago
  Both parties act out of principles. The conflict is about power dynamics, first and foremost.
  - eddtries 3y ago
    Yup, and one is the principles of a large car company from another country while the other is the social underpinnings of the countries entire labour market going back a century
    - mongol 3y ago
      That is exaggregated. This is IF Metall vs Tesla, not Sweden vs Tesla.
      - drakonka 3y ago
        It isn't just IF Metall vs Tesla in practice. The result of this whole thing will impact Swedish labor standards as a whole by setting a critical precedent for both companies and unions. I'm not part of IF Metall, but also not naive enough to think this power struggle won't affect me or people I care about working in Sweden in the future.
        mongol 3y ago
        It will affect you either way. It is difficult to tell exactly how but a union win will embolden the unions in Sweden general, and it is not certain that is an all out win. I realize that embolden is not a neutral word, but what is on the other side of the balance scale is investments in new jobs in Sweden vs elsewhere. Perhaps the balance will still be a net benefit to Sweden but we will see. I would have an easier time to understand the strike if it was about material conditions such as salary etc, but now it is an all-out power struggle about the type of agreement.
        drakonka 3y ago
        The fact that it will affect me either way is kind of my point in saying this is not just IF Metall vs Tesla. I consider a union win to be the best outcome here.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        And for that reason it is the most likely outcome too. 'When in Rome...' Tesla has a lot to lose here: Norway, Sweden and to a lesser extent Denmark and Finland are early adopters and Tesla has large market share there. If they turn those countries against them it will have repercussions all over Europe. I'm in NL and have already heard people mention this conflict here and how it affects their view of Tesla as a brand and I think that's not unique. Pick your battles and all that.
- kioleanu 3y ago
  I’ve heard some form of this from every company fighting unions. If that’s really the case, wouldn’t it be beneficial to the finances of the company overall if the union is requesting less benefits?
  - eddtries 3y ago
    Unions set the lower bar but if you want to be competitive you still offer higher rates. I guess Musk could sign this and give everyone a pay cut!
    - sundaeofshock 3y ago
      It depends on the contract negotiated by the union. In theory, the union can put a floor on pay, with cap and allow individual workers to negotiate higher wages if they are so inclined. The US sports leagues offer the best example of this.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Labor contracts cover a variety of issues, Tesla is cherry-picking their comparison IMO.
- fl7305 3y ago
  Does Tesla have a binding agreement with the workers on how to handle layoffs when business is bad?
  - aeyes 3y ago
    Do they need to? That's what laws are for, in the case of Sweden it's the Employment Protection Act. The union can negotiate a better deal but it's not wild west at-will employment like in the US.
    - fl7305 3y ago
      This is about mass layoffs, not terminating individual employees for "personal reasons". I am not an expert, but I think the union claims that this is one thing that is now worse for the Spotify employees who are laid off? Meaning, sure, there is a degree of basic legal protection, but during layoffs, having a collective bargaining agreement will give you better conditions than that?
      - aeyes 3y ago
        This law also covers layoffs, even to the point where it dictates in what order employees can be laid off. In general the IF Metall collective agreements don't have any additional worker protections for the case of mass layoffs or individual terminations, they usually only cover temporary lay offs. I haven't seen what they are actually asking for in the case of Tesla Sweden. In Germany the discussion is mostly related to wages, safety/accidents and shift planning.
        xorcist 3y ago
        This is a massive simplification to the point of being misleading. Those laws are largely superseded by contract law, which is exactly why collective agreements are made, and the order in which layoffs are made are usually among the first to be negotiated. There are lawyers that base their entire careers on such matters.
- mnsc 3y ago
  Swede here. That is what every company that doesn't want to play according to the Swedish model says. I worked at one of those companies and yes, pay and benefits were better, up until I reached a certain age where the "collective deal" would have been better for me. Was this tiny detail communicated clearly to me? Of course not, I heard it from a colleague who was older and had been at other companies. Was it a lie that "we have a better deal"? I wouldn't say so. Am I still at that company? No.
- lawn 3y ago
  One issue with the work environment is that the workers get a 1 hour max time to find bugs. If they take longer than that they get a mark against them and may cause them to lose their job. This rewards workers who cheat and just send away the cars within the time constraint. This is an example of something they want to fix.
- McDyver 3y ago
  They have it better now, until they don't... Who knows which change in the wind would make Musk change his opinion and make conditions worse (see "I'm a free speech absolutist (until I'm not, and I shut up every voice opposing me)". With a collective agreement, he can throw as many tantrums he wants and the workers will be protected.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules and that the whole country is allowed to club you into submission if you don't follow them. At this point it seems that at least some form of legal obligation (you give an example) would clarify what is understood to be compulsory... Transparent rule of law is also a model for a good reason. From the outside it's a little odd (at least to me) that the Swedes seem adamant that Tesla must accept a collective agreement and also that there is no need to make that the law. That's the peculiarity, IMHO.
- ArchOversight 3y ago
  There are unwritten rules everywhere. The nice thing is that when the unions in Sweden do strike unlike in the US where maybe they will get some support, there is massive groundswell of support behind them to actually get the company to make a change. The fact that the whole country collectively agrees gives the workers far more power.
  - cbeach 3y ago
    How does a country give workers more power? By creating a business-friendly environment. The more companies operate in your country, the more choice of employers. Treated badly? Go work for a competitor. That’s how you put pressure on companies to treat staff better.
    - notaustinpowers 3y ago
      Well, we see how that's going in America and it's a race to the bottom. 10 years experience, bachelor's degree required, starting pay of $35k/yr. A society cannot rely on a business whose sole motivation is profitability to provide power to what they view as a liability, not an asset.

gafage 3y ago

Tesla should leave the market and let Swedes buy automobiles from their own brands... like... err... Saab which no longer exists... or Volvo, which now belongs to a Chinese conglomerate...

surgical_fire 3y ago
Eh, plenty of decent cars from other brands (most better than Tesla). None of the other brands have issues to operate in Sweden. I think the Swedish will be fine.
tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
If Tesla leave Sweden, we will still have many many brands to pick from. Here in Sweden we can buy cars from other companies.
- throttlebody 3y ago
  A Tesla car is pretty much off the shopping list for me, due to Elon's behavior
tyingq 3y ago
Or, they could research the business climate and laws in a country before establishing a presence. Then feel free to buck established practice, but at least know the potential consequences.
- schiffern 3y ago
  Sure, in that case maybe Tesla would never have entered Sweden, but what good is that? It's bad for Sweden, Tesla, and the environment. Discovering this Swedish 'quirk' then vs. now wouldn't make Tesla any more likely to roll over to extralegal bullying tactics.
  - LesZedCB 3y ago
    they aren't extralegal. the strike actions are protected by law. they are exercising their legal right every bit as much as tesla is by suing (and losing).

hiatus 3y ago

Is PostNord like the post office or like fedex? If the former, that seems crazy to me. Imagine the post office just refused to deliver your electricity bill despite the electric company paying for a stamp. If it's the latter it makes a lot more sense.

TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago
They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).
- hiatus 3y ago
  > There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees). Can the USPS outright refuse to deliver all valid and legally paid for mail from a sender? I don't think so but can be corrected.
  - notaustinpowers 3y ago
    No, as most USPS employees are considered "quasi-federal" employees and US law prohibits any federal employees from striking. They can protest and have some of the usual Union protections but striking can lead to them being fired, fined, or imprisoned. As well, there are specific regulations in place for USPS workers to deliver and process all mail (barring certain safety and health issues with the package or delivery).
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    The USPS has a "universal service obligation", so no. The US postal strike of 1970 (which I hadn't heard of before) was apparently illegal, but when a huge number of people perform an illegal act it's often not in the government interest to fire them, but to instead negotiate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_postal_strike_of_1970 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_postal_strike_of... : President Nixon appeared on national television and ordered the employees back to work, but his address only stiffened the resolve of the existing strikers and angered workers in another 671 locations in other cities into walking out as well. Workers in other government agencies also announced they would strike if Nixon pursued legal action against the postal employees.[7]

mytailorisrich 3y ago

> "The district court has decided that PostNord should not be forced make deliveries to Tesla before the case is closed," the Solna district court said in a statement. Just another interim decision, apparently.

ysofunny 3y ago

does this mean sweeden is going to import chinese EVs??

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Well, as it happens Polestar is doing well as a JV between Volvo and Geely. HQ is in Sweden, cars are produced in China. I see a few around me here in the UK now.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Some of the EVs are produced in the states now (South Carolina?). I'm not sure if any of the EVs are actually produced in Sweden, at least I can't find anything on the internet.
anonymouskimmer 3y ago
They already do? https://electrek.co/2023/08/03/chinese-electric-suv-top-selling-ev-sweden-july/ https://electrek.co/2023/08/03/chinese-electric-suv-top-sell...
VoxPelli 3y ago
We are quite capable of producing our own vehicles and batteries Volvo Cars, Polestar, Volvo AB, Scania, Koenigsegg, Northvolt and also new ones like Emily GT, Candella, Einride etc Even our own fighter jets, submarines and military ships through Saab.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

There are two lawsuits. 1. to force the government to allow Tesla to pick up license plates directly from them rather than using PostNord. 2. to force PostNord to deliver license plates. Preliminary rulings are for Tesla on #1 and against Tesla on #2. That seems right to me.

jamesTee49 3y ago

[flagged]

654535ff 3y ago

[flagged]

simplypeter 3y ago

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oldpersonintx 3y ago

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TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago

Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38559673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38559673

SwedishExpat 3y ago

This article uses the words "workers' decision" several times which sounds like individual workers are deciding to not deliver to Tesla. The truth is that a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action. So these workers are legally striking against Tesla too, it's not just an ad hoc decision made by individuals. PostNord employees could not just decide to stop sending parcels to a company without it being part of a directed strike.

hnbad 3y ago
We say "voters" when we mean their representatives too so this doesn't strike me as surprising even if you could argue that it's not really their decision if it's a representative system rather than one of delegation (where each delegate represents one or more people directly who can at any time withdraw their vote from them and vote directly or choose a different delegate). I don't know how Swedish unions are structured though. But yes, this is a solidarity strike and should be described as such to avoid confusion or ambiguity. It's interesting to see this play out as solidarity strikes are explicitly forbidden by law in my country (Germany) and while strikes and unions are granted many legal protections (e.g. a company under strike is not allowed to hire temporary strike breakers to substitute the striking workers, though they can use their existing non-striking workers), the law also explicitly restricts strikes to the company the workers are employed by. This is presumably meant to "tame" unions and prevent larger organized action, solidarity strikes or even a general strike (which would not be placing demands on the employer but e.g. the government).
- sakjur 3y ago
  In Sweden it’d be illegal if there was a collective bargaining agreement in place and the strike wasn’t aligned with the terms set out therein. The law explicitly doesn’t extend the same protections for companies that don’t sign a CBA.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  The point I wanted to clarify is that if I worked at PostNord I couldn't decide to stop sending post to a company I disagree with, or a political party I dislike, etc. This is union-led industrial action. I saw some confusion in other posts on the topic where people thought this was individual action.

rob74 3y ago

> A Swedish court said on Thursday that PostNord did not, for the time being, need to deliver licence plates to the electric carmaker that were being blocked by the postal service’s workers, in the latest twist in a battle over collective bargaining agreements. How exactly is this done? Do they refuse to accept the license plates when the Swedish Transport Agency wants to drop them off? Or do they accept the plates, but refuse to deliver them? The former would be more or less ok, but the latter would amount to theft (taking the property of someone else and refusing to give it to them). I don't agree with Tesla's anti-union practices, just curious...

actionfromafar 3y ago
It's not clear to me who owns the license plate. Maybe it's the state who is the owner. I know the old plate must be destroyed when a new plate is issued.
victorbjorklund 3y ago
The latter. They dont deliever any mail.
VoxPelli 3y ago
The postal workers doesn’t care what it is that’s delivered to Tesla, nothing is delivered, but apparently Tesla is only upset about the license plates So it’s all about the receiver, and it’s not the only reason one can have to refuse to deliver, in other cases safety and work environment has been cited. I’m not sure what happens with the mail though, if it’s sent back to the sender or put in piles
knallfrosch 3y ago
They just don't deliver the license plates. Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves. I imagine they're just thrown into the corner of a warehouse somewhere.
- scbrg 3y ago
  > Tesla can go and pick them off at the postal center themselves. No. You cannot waltz into a postal center, say "oh, that there stuff is mine" and then leave with it.

throw_a_grenade 3y ago

> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.

tallanvor 3y ago
Of course it's ridiculous. Unions have historically been key to helping equalize the power between employers and employees. Musk knows this and it's clear that he thinks of people working for his companies as peasants that only deserve what he's willing to dole out.
- port515 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    The Nordics, famously bankrupt for almost 100 years.
- nprateem 3y ago
  I think he meant he doesn't like when the peasants rise up against the lords.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  My wife owns a company, it boggles my mind how the employees underestimate their strength. They work for fractions and they are necessary for the company. If a worker knows an owner is desperate, the worker can win. The opposite is true too.
  - mission_failed 3y ago
    An individual has families to feed and mortgages to pay
suoduandao3 3y ago

cbmuser 3y ago

The article does not explain the background. What relation does Tesla have to Swedish workers? Is there a Tesla Gigafactory in Sweden?

piva00 3y ago
No, this is only about repair shops. Which makes it all more stupid from Tesla.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  But sympathy strikes goes further and now affects superchargers, offices and even Swedish suppliers to the gigafactory. Lucky for Musk that he picked a Finnish supplier for the Cybertruck steel…
  - Gravityloss 3y ago
    A union in Finland was already asked to support by Swedish unions and they already agreed. But only regarding stuff exported to Sweden. Tesla in Finland already follows the agreements agreed by the unions and the employer representative in the so-called kolmikanta. Because it's the law. Sweden has more loose laws there. Finland had a devastating and bloody civil war with whites and reds and a somewhat different history than Sweden regarding the labor market. IIRC some Finnish union people have tried to export labor union concepts to say China but I've heard that labor activists are persecuted there.
    - SCM-Enthusiast 3y ago
      Yeah - and i bet you that small concession is going to be a huge loss for hydro. I'm sure elon eithier is spinning up his own cyber truck steel line or using a different supplier by the end of the year in spite.
  - bdhcuidbebe 3y ago
    > Lucky for Musk that he picked a Finnish supplier https://efe.com/en/economy/2023-12-07/finnish-union-will-be-part-of-swedish-strike-against-tesla/ https://efe.com/en/economy/2023-12-07/finnish-union-will-be-...

port515 3y ago

Considering all Tesla imports come from Germany or China, I feel Sweden will be on the losing end of this.

guappa 3y ago
You have no idea how many teslas there are on the roads in sweden.
SwedishExpat 3y ago
That's not related to this issue. Sweden loses if they allow multinationals to break the Swedish Model. If Tesla decided to never sell a car to Sweden, which is within their rights, Sweden would still have won if the labour market remains in tact. Personally I am 99.9% sure that Tesla will fold eventually, the question is how much PR damage will they have created for themselves in the Nordics/EU before they fold.
- w1n5t0n99 3y ago
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ClumsyPilot 3y ago
I find this comment disturbing - you are suggesting that 3 nations combined, some of the richest cointries on earth, lack either power or authority to reign in what a foreign corporstion does on their soil? How do you reconsile that such belief with democracy? Because that set of beliefs is only compatiable with belief in some kind of trans-national oligarchy. Or maybe some sort of America-centeic-colonialism, i am struggling to think of better term.
- vinay427 3y ago
  I’m not entirely sure what the GP commenter is trying to say, but I’m also not sure how they imply Sweden, Germany, and China are working together, as I think is implied in your comment in that their power or authority is combined. Could you maybe rephrase what you mean, or how you interpreted their comment?

that_guy_iain 3y ago

Why do I have the feeling one of the main outcomes of this is PostNord loses business of deliverying the license plates and other courier gets the tender instead?

peterpost2 3y ago
That's tricky in Sweden, PostNord is by a far distance the best delivery mechanism (it customer service still sucks though), if you go far up North or rural many other delivery services are hard to find. There is a lot of things to be said about PostNord but its most reliable.
- felipemnoa 3y ago
  I really don't think this is tricky at all. If Musk is serious about the fight then I'm sure that for the right price they can find other couriers to meet their needs. Even if they had to pay an order of magnitude more money. It would only be for the short term.
  - noirscape 3y ago
    This isn't possible for Tesla because PostNord currently has the exclusive right to deliver license plates - they literally can't hire any other courier company to do it.
    - xorcist 3y ago
      They could, the next time the contract is up for renegotiation. It would require however that there are other couriers that fulfill their safety requirements with the logistic infrastructure to deliver to the entire country. That's not likely. But entirely within the realm of possibility that someone with deep pockets could start one. However it would not make any difference for Tesla, as that courier would also be unionized. Few other companies would do business with them otherwise, as Tesla is about to find out.
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago

0xDEF 3y ago

Tesla is shooting itself in the foot by not being pragmatic. Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are combined the 3rd biggest market for Tesla. During some months we even edge out China temporarily becoming Tesla's 2nd biggest market. The way our unions are being portrayed by Americans is ridiculous. Even pro-union Americans are making our unions sound far more aggressive and subversive than they actually are. A "blockade" just means no unionized workers and truck drivers want to offload and transport your products and supplies. It doesn't mean a literal blockade.

godzillabrennus 3y ago
It does seem penny wise and dollar foolish for Musk/Tesla to be playing these games.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Foolish? From the guy who spent 44 billion on Twitter to then run it into the ground? Noooo, it can't be, Musk is a business genius. /s obviously
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> The way our unions are being portrayed by Americans is ridiculous. Americans policymakers believe in freedom of association only when it suits them. Its cool for Google or banks to close all your accounts without any reason, and make your life impossible. Its wrong for all unions/workers to refuse to work with Google and make their business impossible.
- randall 3y ago
  This feels very disingenuous, and pretty unfair. I don’t think most Americans think it’s ok for google or banks to act that way, and I also feel very uncomfortable about a sort of “mob rule” system… where informal agreements dictate which businesses are allowed to operate. They both feel weird for roughly the same reasons: arbitrary decisions instead of laws dictate which behavior is tolerated for which group of people. In both cases the rights of individuals seem like they’re subject to the whims of other groups of people, instead of “liberty and justice for all.”

askonomm 3y ago

[flagged]

pard68 3y ago

So a shipping company is refusing to deliver packages to a specific company? This sounds like a shakedown.

cornholio 3y ago
What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. So Tesla has no choice over using PostNord, they are mandated by law to do so to receive their plates, yet a private interest group can arbitrarily deny them access to public services. There is a lot of verbiage about how Tesla is shooting itself in the foot for peanuts, and I guess it's a legitimate position to hold. The far larger elephant in the room however, is a very public example of how a concerted labor action in Sweden can essentially bankrupt any international company setting offices in the country - by denying them access to public services they already paid for in taxes. This is bound to have profound chilling effects on any investor looking at Sweden as anything other than a consumer market into which to dump products.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > What is striking here is that the Government offices all use the services of PostNord. Why is it striking? They own PostNord. It's 60% owned by Sweden's government, 40% by Denmark's. It's a state-owned corporation. The US government tends to use USPS for similar reasons.
  - cornholio 3y ago
    Unlike the USPS, which is a a government branch with an universal service obligation, Sweeden has a liberalized postal market. This means PostNord won a public tender and has a contract to deliver services to the Swedish government, regardless of the ownership structure. So, far from being an action of the government itself, this is the doing of a private interest group - the unionized employees of a government contractor - that are thus able to completely sabotage any private company by denying access to essential (and legally mandatory) government services, license plate registration. It's arbitrary private control over a public service. This is striking for any country claiming to uphold rule of law.

onethought 3y ago

Spotify also had a breakdown with unions and its workforce. With no where near the fall out that Tesla is getting. Surely that is a bigger deal than Tesla service centres!? Anti Elon, anti American sentiment?

actionfromafar 3y ago
Different unions.
- capableweb 3y ago
  Not only that, but the co-founder and CEO of Spotify is also Swedish which means he has some perspective on how unions work in Sweden so he can be pragmatic. Musk lacks any sort of perspective in that market, seemingly.
mschild 3y ago
More clicks. Tesla is an American company and has an actual ongoing strike. Spotify is Swedish and there is currently no ongoing strike. If you look for articles in Swedish, you'll see plenty.
VoxPelli 3y ago
Klarna also had a breakdown with unions but ultimately signed an agreement in the last minute before strikes started to happen. What makes Tesla different from Klarna and Spotify is that Tesla has a global policy to never sign. So Tesla’s Swedish company is prohibited by Tesla to do any kind of negotiation, and that escalates things drastically.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > What makes Tesla different from Klarna and Spotify The "heritage" between the three is also different. Klarna and Spotify are/was Swedish, they know what going up against a union means, and it often involves going against multiple unions as they all help each other. Tesla clearly have no idea what they were going against, as what is happening now is such an obvious fallout from not understanding the country they're operating in.

Geee 3y ago

The important detail which most people seem to miss is that Tesla's workers aren't behind this. They don't want to unionize, because there's no reason to. The IF Metall union is striking because they just want to get their cut.

capableweb 3y ago
> The important detail which most people seem to miss is that Tesla's workers aren't behind this. They don't want to unionize, because there's no reason to. > The IF Metall union is striking because they just want to get their cut. What sort of people do you think IF Metall is made up of? It's the second largest union in Sweden, the people who are a part of the union are also workers at Tesla and other companies. It's not made up of "career-unionists" if that's what you thought.
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it. It is people working elsewhere -- or rather, the management of the labour unions that organize those other people.
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
    The Tesla employees are behind it. Maybe not all. Some because they are scared of getting punished by Tesla. Something Tesla has indeed threatened with as far as I’m aware.
  - SwedishExpat 3y ago
    > The point is that it's not Tesla's employees that are behind it. How do you know this though? Union membership is anonymous. You have no reason to tell your employer you're a member. If there's a strike all employees can legally take part to help stop identification of members. Every member of Tesla could be a union member saying they aren't to avoid pushback by Tesla. That's just as likely as none of them being a member.
  - capableweb 3y ago

i67vw3 3y ago

Tesla should crush pesky swedish unions, no matter what. Buy ports, buy ships, buy trucks, buy electricians, buy a brand new postal service etc. The $26 B cash on hand should be used somewhere, instead of usual executive package and share buyback. Edit:- If my comment is not as per HN guidelines, I am willing to delete it.

capableweb 3y ago
> The $26 B cash on hand should be used somewhere, instead of usual executive package and share buyback. Yup, squashing worker rights for corporations everywhere sounds like a good way of spending $26B. > Edit:- If my comment is not as per HN guidelines, I am willing to delete it. Why don't you try to read the guidelines before posting, if you think you might be breaking some guideline? But no, you're getting downvoted not because of breaking the rules, but because of the horrible opinion and lack of care of the common worker.
givemeethekeys 3y ago
Why?
rsynnott 3y ago
This is one of these cases where one would assume that it's a joke, but because Naughty Old Mr Car is involved, Poe's Law is in full effect. So, assuming you're serious... Eh? Tesla shareholder meeting, 2024. "We're going to spend 26 billion dollars on attempting to build a parallel economy in Sweden." ".... Why?" "Oh, spite, mostly." How do you think that would go over?
VoxPelli 3y ago
That’s cute Go and try that somewhere else where it might work. We don’t need any Tesla / douchemobiles here.
SwedishExpat 3y ago
So the first thing I think of here is Toys'R'Us when they tried to break their strikes. Banks stopped processing payments. So if they did try this, they would be unable to pay for any of those things! Plus most employees like their unions. They offer a lot of perks beyond what companies offer. So they'd probably not find any staff.

danielovichdk 3y ago

Fuck these companies that think they can break the unions our former generations built for the purpose of being treated fair. Americans don't get it. We Scandinavians are not built on a cultural foundation which circles around creating our own safety nets. We are not lucky. We worked hard for it for hundreds of years. Same thing goes for Wolt or Uber etc. They are not welcome here if they can't treat workers by their unions commitments. Fuck the money and hail solidarity.

randall 3y ago
Can you tell me more about the safety net thing? As an American I actually don’t understand that point. Are you saying culturally your family wouldn’t feel obligated to be a safety net if another family member was struggling? And that the unions defacto provide that sort of guarantee?
- raoulkent 3y ago
  Generally, you take part of a union as a member. This includes that the union will deal with some negotiations with employers, will help you with legal issues regarding work and will help you with financial aid if you are let go. In Sweden we have no laws for minimum wages and many worker rights are instead regulated through union-employer agreements.
- maigret 3y ago
  Family can be and is one safety net in Europe, but many people haven't one, or one that can help, or one that wants to help. Nordic countries have been very stable through history and developed a culture where the community goes much farther than family. This helps the society become more resilient in an environment where the climate was historically very harsh and unforgiving. Also it feels great to be able to trust the existing rules in place. You know what to expect, and you feel fine to follow them when you know they are enforced to others as well. You expect others to know and follow the rules as well.
- throw310822 3y ago
  No, I guess it means that Europeans think that there is a minimum level of welfare that must be guaranteed to everyone, and that minimum level is way above what is granted in the US. This doesn't mean that family members won't also contribute to that "safety net", just that there is a relatively high "acceptable minimum" and the state is expected to make sure that nobody falls below that.

Gravityloss 3y ago

One can see multiple confident and very different explanations in these threads. They can't all be correct at the same time. But at least it's people trying to unwrap what's going on and there are good responses and back and forths et.

SwedishExpat 3y ago
A lot of it comes down to the mental models of Unions - they're very different depending on the country you work in. A lot of people just can't believe a system with powerful Unions can be a good non-corrupt system for employees and employers.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  Very true! And I also think a lot of people doesn’t understand how Sweden/Nordics differ from eg France and assumes unions all across Europe works the same.

sinuhe69 3y ago

The Guardian kept the most picante part for the end. Perhaps because it might undo the “Tesla is losing” sentiment the media want to conjure up? “In a case related to the PostNord action, a court on 27 November ruled that the Swedish Transport Agency must find a way to get licence plates to Tesla. The agency has appealed against the decision. Some Swedish pension funds have urged Tesla to sign the agreement with the union, but have so far held off from selling their shares.”

Y-bar 3y ago
Probably because on December 7 a higher court "Hovratten" stayed earlier court's order and the transport agency is still not forced to deliver the plates. Final decision has not been taken. https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/tesla-far-vanta-pa-registreringsskyltar/ https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/tesla-far-vanta-pa-registreringssk...

VoxPelli 3y ago

With the kind of humor that Elon Musk has he should love the Swedish unions, as the Swedish name for union is “fack”, which is pronounced “fuck” Sounds like something he would like, in addition to his S,3,X,Y range of cars

Ma8ee 3y ago
So, the Swedish word for union is fackförening, where fack is pronounced exactly as English fuck. There’s a story that Stig Malm, at the time the head of the biggest Swedish union, LO, went to Brussels and orated lengthily about the Swedish fack unions.
jacquesm 3y ago
Fack around and find out? Tesla is playing this as dumb and tone-deaf as they possibly could.

jmclnx 3y ago

Yet another example on why the Nordics are always rated at the top of the best Countries to live in. If only people in the US weren't cowards when it comes to Businesses, things would be much better.

causality0 3y ago

Refusing to deliver to Tesla is one thing, but when you get to the point of refusing to surrender their property when their representatives show up at the location where it is stored, that's just plain theft.

knallfrosch 3y ago
I imagine the post office told them something along the lines of: 'Go fuck yourself'

ilovetux 3y ago

> I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing So, Elon Musk has zero self-awareness. Good to know.

ZoomerCretin 3y ago
Maybe he meant he doesn't like anything which reveals or counteracts the lords-and-peasants thing that exists and from which he personally benefits.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Agreed - his comment makes complete sense if you s/creates a/pierces the veil of/ US companies must be scared as hell about what would happen if we had strong sectoral bargaining and permitted sympathy strikes like Nordic countries.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    "If your mighty hand wills it so the wheels of commerce cease to turn". I forgot where that came from but it is a very powerful reminder who ultimately has power and that only in numbers that power can be effectively wielded.