17 ms·

Developer account removed by Apple

753 points by vilfredoparet0 3y ago

EwanG 3y ago
Honestly, after looking through the "apps" they created and what little I could find about reviews for them, I am having a hard time not feeling that Apple was in the right here. On the other hand, I certainly understand that having your business shut down with little or no notice and right of appeal lies with the "prosecution" can feel crummy.
- dado3212 3y ago
  What makes you say that? The article is light on details about what the apps actually do, and why they might be violating.
  - EwanG 3y ago
    Looking at "Fontly Color Fonts", and some of their other apps, they are mainly repackaging websites as an app. For example check out the actual website at - https://fontly.org/ https://fontly.org/ I don't think that's necessarily a "bad" thing but I hardly find it reasonable to believe they are charging for the privilege.
    - steezeburger 3y ago
      That app does not seem like a wrapper around that website you linked at all. Can you give me a specific example? I may just not be seeing it. One is a blog and free font repository, kinda. One is a collage maker.
- adriand 3y ago
  Seems like an unfair comment. I've had their Boomerang app on my phone for a long time. Made some fun stuff with it in the past, haven't used it in a while, but there wasn't anything particularly wrong with it. Just another niche app.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    I don’t think the Boomerang app is theirs. It doesn’t show up in the link of their Google Play apps. If it is, that’s Instagram’s trademark.
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      Apple allows “for X” and “powered by X” type app names per official policy cited by App Store reviewers There are other patterns they allow that I’m unfamiliar with. Perhaps “X Maker” is one of them because it appears there are many other developer accounts using this pattern from a quick search. The point is that using another trademark isn’t itself a violation necessarily
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        Yes, but the app depicted doesn’t do that. https://about.instagram.com/blog/announcements/introducing-boomerang-video-app https://about.instagram.com/blog/announcements/introducing-b... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/boomerang-video-maker/id1454678540 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/boomerang-video-maker/id145467...
        SushiHippie 3y ago
        The second link you provided isn't the boomerang app from instagram, it looks like the official one does not exist anymore.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - threeseed 3y ago
    There are a dozen Boomerang rip-off apps on the App Store. Would be surprised if you're even using theirs.
- freedomben 3y ago
  If you're going to say that, I think you need to explain why you feel like Apple was in the right. This sort of vagueness and ambiguity is extremely unfair to the accused, and this is notoriously what big tech does (and I think it's wrong). What is it about the apps that you feel either does or should violate policy?
  - Terretta 3y ago
    > What is it about the apps that you feel either does or should violate policy? OK, using the article's words, let's count the ways: Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications. 6 apps * ~5 fixes = 30 problems ... they knew what they were doing
    - megous 3y ago
      I'm just glad the state doesn't work as you suggest, lol. "Dear citizen, we have detected wrongful behavior on your part. Stop doing the wrongful behavior. You should know what we mean. As long as the behavior continues, the state will appropriate 20% of your salary. Here is a list of behaviors that you might or might not have been engaging in: [link to the penal code]"
- callalex 3y ago
  Then why is Apple keeping the money instead of refunding it?
mortallywounded 3y ago
Something feels off... those apps don't seem like 33K/MRR worthy. I suspect some kind of manipulation was being done to... help?
- deaddodo 3y ago
  For sure, this seems super suspect. Unless they mean Chilean Pesos, but that would seem far too low.
  - CR007 3y ago
    The guy lives in Chile but the company is registered at Hong Kong.
- namanyayg 3y ago
  One way apps get high MRR is by offering free trial for a small period, then charging for subscriptions later The user forgets about the subscriptions and ends up paying for a while before cancelling This is probably what apple means by "bait and switch" Of course I can't say if these app did this or not, I am just saying this is a common practice
  - olliej 3y ago
    but remember the App Store review protects people from bait and switch! /s
  - ssijak 3y ago
    that is done by literally 80% of the paid apps. so I suspect that is not the banned behavior. it's the same on the web, you sign up for a free trial but leave the CC
    - natch 3y ago
      “Everyone (80%) does it so it’s ok” That may be true but it may just be that Apple hates this but has trouble writing the right set of rules that don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. And then when they get the slightest excuse (the fake fake reviews yes double fake) then they take the opportunity to close the unpleasant account. Actually if 20% of the apps don’t do these scummy dark patterns, I’d just as soon see only those better apps in the store.
Namari 3y ago
In this case, where does this money goes? Is it refunded to the people who bought the apps or is it litterally stolen by Apple?
- _just7_ 3y ago
  Held in deposit forever, ie until someone sues someone else or the money are forgotten
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    That goes to Apple then. The accounting liability gets erased after a few years and the asset stays on the books Like Starbucks gift cards that go unused.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  Apple holds it
  - brookst 3y ago
    False. Google “escheatment”
    - djbusby 3y ago
      https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersescheat https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersescheat
    - fbdab103 3y ago
      I am not sure that applies if Apple is deliberately withholding the money. Presumably they are making some claims as to breaking of laws or violating a policy. Enscheatment is more about forgotten money. The developer is very aware of their lack of access.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  Amusingly/sadly(?), I believe even if the money is eventually returned or enscheated, Apple can collect interest/invest the money the entire time.
Manuel_D 3y ago
If the fake reviews are indeed the reason why the apps were taken off the store, that does strike me as an inappropriate action. Take down the reviews, yes. But closing the developer account creates a big opportunity to eliminate competition by buying fake reviews for your competitors. There's also nothing developers can do to prevent this since they can't curate or reject reviews from what I know. That said, other commenters are pointing out a very large revenue figure relative to the popularity of these apps. That smells more like money laundering or fraud. In that scenario, Apple should have been more specific in their communications.
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  It's apple punishing you for their own failure to moderate the reviews posted to their store, which they're charging you $100+30% to access.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    Considering how much data Apple also has on their users, it’s insane that they haven’t yet solved this problem.
    - KingOfCoders 3y ago
      Why would they if they can keep aka escrow $100k?
      - selectodude 3y ago
        $100k is literally meaningless to Apple.
        nottheengineer 3y ago
        If any amount of money was meaningless to apple, they wouldn't be where they are today.
tmaly 3y ago
You are burying the lead in your story. You should put that right at the top.
- SeanLuke 3y ago
  Lede. Yes, it's an unusual word.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    > "Both “bury the lede” and “bury the lead” are acceptable spellings of this phrase... Whether to use “lede” or “lead” depends on your audience and context. If you’re writing for a news publication or using the term in a journalistic context, “lede” is the preferred spelling. However, if you’re writing for a general audience or not referring specifically to journalism, either spelling is acceptable." https://proofed.com/writing-tips/idiom-tips-bury-the-lede-or-bury-the-lead https://proofed.com/writing-tips/idiom-tips-bury-the-lede-or... See also: > "The spelling lede is an alteration of lead, a word which, on its own, makes sense; after all, isn't the main information in a story found in the lead (first) paragraph? And sure enough, for many years lead was the preferred spelling for the introductory section of a news story. So how did we come to spell it lede? Although evidence dates the spelling to the 1970s, we didn't enter lede in our dictionaries until 2008." https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versus-lead https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versu...
    - SeanLuke 3y ago
      etymologyonline says at least 1965. Other sources date to 1950. The term was invented to distinguish the head paragraph of a story specifically because it would cause confusion with "lead", which at the time was widely used in newspapers to refer to lead type and to actual strips used to add spacing between lines (indeed it's still called "leading" in typesetting). It is standard newspaper jargon. But more importantly, "bury the lede" is specifically a newspaper phrase. I think that saying it should be changed to "lead" for the uninformed is like saying that you should change "Smalltalk" to "Small Talk" when addressing the uniformed. No! It's Smalltalk. More importantly, HN is definitely not the uniformed when it comes to newspaper printing technology and journalism.
woadwarrior01 3y ago
This is very reminiscent of the Dash controversy from a few years ago. In that case Apple even responded with the details[0] of the developer's transgressions, after a huge outcry from the app dev community. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131
- lapcat 3y ago
  That link is very very far from the end of the Dash story, which includes the developer recording a phone call with Apple. See extensive coverage by Michael Tsai: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/10/apple-and-kapeli-respond/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/10/apple-and-kapeli-respond/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-the-app-store/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-t... Dash for macOS continues to this day, though not in the App Store.
  - woadwarrior01 3y ago
    That very much was the end of the developer's sales of the Dash app on the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store. Apple decided to respond publicly only after he published the recording of the phone call with the Apple rep. John Gruber had a well-balanced coverage[1] of the whole story. He continues to sell it directly[2] and on Setapp[3], and has lately pivoted to the subscription-ware revenue model. [1]: https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy [2]: https://kapeli.com/dash https://kapeli.com/dash [3]: https://setapp.com/apps/dash https://setapp.com/apps/dash
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > That very much was the end of the developer's sales of the Dash app on the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store. Incorrect. I already gave a link showing that Dash returned to the iOS App Store: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-the-app-store/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-t... Technically, it was the end of "sales" in the iOS App Store, because the developer had already open-sourced Dash for iOS and made it free: https://github.com/Kapeli/Dash-iOS https://github.com/Kapeli/Dash-iOS Nonetheless, it's indisputable that Apple approved Dash to be in the iOS App Store in 2017. > Apple decided to respond publicly only after he published the recording of the phone call with the Apple rep. Also incorrect. Compare the timestamps of these tweets: https://twitter.com/theloop/status/785600832335073280 https://twitter.com/theloop/status/785600832335073280 5:00 PM · Oct 10, 2016 https://twitter.com/kapeli/status/785621704081022976 https://twitter.com/kapeli/status/785621704081022976 6:23 PM · Oct 10, 2016 It's also worth noting that selling directly outside the Mac App Store still requires an Apple developer account in order to sign with a Developer ID certificate and notarize the app. It's not surprising, though, that the developer chooses to no longer use the Mac App Store. Again, Michael Tsai's blog post has extensive coverage, including a link to the Daring Fireball post that you linked.
mk89 3y ago
From the reviews on play store it looks like the typical apps that spit ads like hell. Some complain about the fact they don't work, some are happy with them. Business as usual. Not sure why they got shutdown, probably the competition really burnt them with the fake reviews. That's really ugly.
skratlo 3y ago
The whole business model of living off of App stores, controlled by tech giants, is flawed, and no sane person should ever make this their sole source of income. It's like being held hostage.
- r0ckarong 3y ago
  It's like holding yourself hostage.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- blowski 3y ago
  It's more like working in a world where there are rewards and risks. There is a good argument that the world as a whole would be better off without the current App Store model, but it makes sense for individuals to aim to profit from the existing model.
  - tremon 3y ago
    The real world also has rewards and risks. It also has a judicial system where the actions of both parties are weighted and judged by an independent party. In that world, one party cannot summarily forfeit an outstanding balance owed to the other party.
- realusername 3y ago
  I also have the same (controversial maybe) opinion, the mobile stores are good enough for a hobby developer, they are not mature enough for real businesses. I'm going to launch another mobile app for some side income in the future but I'll never launch a real business based on that, that's for sure.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  This is getting to be a lot like "no sane peasant should farm the feudal lords land"
- scarface_74 3y ago
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
Working with Apple is horrific, I have a small Saas company publishing fitness apps. They don't give a f**. They treat you like a peasant, while constantly making review mistakes (like asking questions explained all caps in the review notes), unexplained white screens, bugs & unreachable appstore connects. I often had an app rejected because IAPurchase takes too long because of Apple's server being too slow. Then they take days to respond just because they claim it's your mistake. On second try it works and they find something else to complain. Honestly bad karma. It will come back at some point. But it will take a while, the App Store is not build on quality & care, but on pure power.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  There's nothing worse than arguing with a review tester that "this was fine before, why is it a problem now".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- js2 3y ago
  If it makes you feel any better, I work for a not small company and Apple and Google both treat our app submissions the same way. We have rejections so often we have a Slack channel dedicated to it, an internal FAQ, and automated checks we run before submitting. The "What's New" notes are a favorite for reviewers to nitpick. We recently had an app rejected because the "What's New" section included the phase "and other improvements." Nevermind that we'd been using that phrase for months.
  - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
    Off late my biggest apps actually getting through easily. They have a whitelist system it seems. But also a blacklist, one mistake seems to pile up issues
absqueued 3y ago
Reading a few reviews on the playstore of this apps - instantly tells me that something is off. Asking for review after 20 second of app installation? Also most 5 star reveiw looks fake.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  We hired an "app revenue optimization" guy for an hour consultation just to see if we missed something obvious. One thing he suggested was to ask for a review instantly after the paywall. Apparently if you do that, most people will give a 5 star review. We haven't done it since it seems... weird? scammy? but apparently it's a thing that works for maximizing ranking (since reviews are a big influence)
  - absqueued 3y ago
    Curious, do you think the mentality of buyers would be "I just paid, so it s 5"? And I am glad you didn't do it. I personally find it so annoying. I am do ask for reviews but lemme use it for a while first?
    - FinnKuhn 3y ago
      I would assume that people don't buy an App that they wouldn't give a positive review?
  - rchaud 3y ago
    > Apparently if you do that, most people will give a 5 star review. We haven't done it since it seems... weird? scammy? This is what Uber does. Not just a 'rate your trip' but also the 'add a tip' prompt. Only way to get rid of the screen is to select something or hit Back a bunch of times.
max_ 3y ago
Too long, Don't Read; - OP develops apps - OP's apps get flagged and removed from iOS store for violating Appstore rules. - OP learns his app has been cloned down to the last pixel by one NIGII Technologies - OP learns that NIGII Technologies launched and attack on his "Rolly app" by paying fake accounts to make bogus reviews on OPs app account. - Attacker (NIGII Technologies) purchasing fake reviews to comment on OPs original app causes Apple to shut down OPs Apple Developer account. - OP wants you to help him sign a petition https://chng.it/5dpJHY6KGf https://chng.it/5dpJHY6KGf - OP would also want you to write a letter to the App review team appreview@apple.com
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Terretta 3y ago
  But, before you write the letter, understand OP knew what they were doing: "Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications." All methods to juice and retain MRR at users' literal expense.
slezyr 3y ago
Russian guy saying that he is in Chile in the first sentence? Absolutely nothing suspicious. https://companies.rbc.ru/id/1215600010141-obschestvo-s-ogranichennoj-otvetstvennostyu-sarafan/ https://companies.rbc.ru/id/1215600010141-obschestvo-s-ogran... It is even a Russian company. It was registered a bit before the war started and liquidated not so long ago.
- nmilo 3y ago
  This is literally just racism.
  - gorbachev 3y ago
    No. Russian is not a race. It's bigotry, however.
    - nmilo 3y ago
      I'm so glad you got to be technically correct today.
      - gorbachev 3y ago
        I'm glad I could be of service. You're welcome.
  - 15155 3y ago
    Which race is being implicated?
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      East Slavic
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        I would call it xenophobia.
chad1n 3y ago
It's pretty embarrassing for Apple because it's a pretty common thing for Apple to close random developer accounts with pretty respectable applications. At least, Google is a little bit more transparent from my experience, I could easily publish my application there, but on Apple, you have to go through tons of mental gymnastics and their cerficates are $100/year compared to one $20 certificate from Google.
RainbowFriends 3y ago
Hitting the front page of Hacker News will lead to a much cheaper resolution of this issue than paying their law firm.
- silenced_trope 3y ago
  Hopefully. Honestly it sucks but when this happens with Google and others there's sometimes a person in the comments here: "Send me your info and I'll escalate this internally". Which also sucks, but the PR at least has some impact. I think it's doubtful that this kind of PR impacts Apple as much.
- rchaud 3y ago
  This isn't a Stripe issue.
Obscurity4340 3y ago
Blow it up, peepz. First they come for him...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kojeovo 3y ago
Not that I am arguing in favor for how things currently work re Apple's ecosystem, but from a quick look it seems like these apps bait you into paying and the developer is just completely ignoring that part. I think that's what Apple is not fond of.
- belltaco 3y ago
  If that's the case, Apple should refund or pay out the $108K before closing the account with that explanation.
  - constantly 3y ago
    Apple should give this developer the benefit of their shady practices? That just encourages more apps like this.
    - fbdab103 3y ago
      There are all sorts of crap apps with dark patterns. Apple can say, "We no longer condone this behavior," but that does not give them the right to steal the current money. Return it to the scammed or give it to the developer.
- Oras 3y ago
  The question is, why did Apple approved the app in the first place? This was an update and the app was making money (according to the article).
ilamont 3y ago
Many platforms have this issue. While some freezes are deserved, others are false positives or account problems that are difficult to resolve. Amazon sellers live in dread of this scenario, not only because of the frozen funds, but also the inability to get a clear answer of what policy was broken. Or, Amazon's automated shutdowns make accusations that are impossible to disprove such as review manipulation or running multiple seller accounts. You can see a sample here: https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG
olliej 3y ago
It remains absurd that corporations can do this shit (PayPal does this a lot, I recall various other articles over the years for other companies as well), and there are no consequences. Delayed payment should have mandatory penalties along the lines a normal person would get for failure to pay a bill. Seriously, if you think it’s fraud then there should be a police report, if it’s a ToS violation close the account and ban the user, but if they haven’t actually committed fraud it’s their money.
lolinder 3y ago
I get that everyone feels strongly about abuse of power by these app stores, but I wish stories like this would stop making it to the front page. Often, the company trying to build outrage knows very well what they've done and is lying to try to get a mob going to get what they want. The pattern is usually the same: the story gets a lot of upvotes from people who don't pause to think about the story, the first few comments are filled with outrage, and then the more thoughtful comments trickle in pointing out all the holes in their claims (in this case, weirdly large revenue numbers and many dark patterns described in reviews that line up with Apple's assertions). But by the time the commenters have done the research and figured out that the story is overblown, it's already too late: the company got the attention they wanted. "A lie can get halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." I don't doubt that there are people who are actually damaged illegitimately by unilateral actions like this, but every time we swarm to upvote a fishy one like this, the effectiveness of HN as an escalation platform gets weaker.
- deadmutex 3y ago
  Underrated comment
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- pvg 3y ago
  Flag them and/or email the mods. That actually works whereas the meta exhortations mostly don't and just beget more meta.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
  Submit a few iOS apps and you will understand why these stories rank so high. Apple makes you feel powerless
paradite 3y ago
I've been collecting these deplatform actions over the years. Only 2 so far in 2023 that I recorded: https://github.com/paradite/awful-deplatform https://github.com/paradite/awful-deplatform
cptaj 3y ago
This keeps happening again and again in all online marketplaces. Be it amazon, ebay, app stores, etc. This NEEDS to be regulated. If thousands of companies make a living in your marketplace, you simply can't be allowed to take destructive unilateral action against their business without due process. One guy reviewing tickets in a random location worldwide, working for minimum wage, takes a 30 second look at your case and closes down your account. Your company loses millions and goes out of business before any dispute even gets processed (If they even have a dispute system) This is simply an insane way of doing business.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Longhanks 3y ago
  > This is simply an insane way of doing business. Then don't? Apple clearly lays out the rules beforehand? I don’t see how "being able to sell software on the platform a company allows you to sell on yet not following the platform creator's rules" should be a human right? If you don't want to take the risk of Apple disapproving you selling your software on their platform, maybe don't start a business depending on Apple not doing so?
  - adontz 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law
  - n6242 3y ago
    Having a warranty or a return policy is not a human right either, yet companies are obligated by law to do it (at least here in Europe) because otherwise companies would just say "you knew what you were getting when you bought it" and not give a damn as long as they profit from it, just like apple is doing here.
    - Longhanks 3y ago
      You can only claim the warranty if you follow rules, such as: You didn’t willingly break the item. Violating this rule weaves the right to return the item (and getting your money back). So why should Apple be forced to keep you on their platform if you willingly break their rules?
deleted 3y ago
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RagnarD 3y ago
I developed several iPhone apps. While I didn't run into something as serious as this, I have a hard time seeing how any company could invest serious money into developing an app that Apple - in its sole judgement - can capriciously reject. I am greatly in favor of competing app stores and the unequivocal ability to "sideload" any apps (at the user's risk of course.) I suspect Apple themselves don't realize that their own policies have inhibited the development of apps which would blow away what currently exist at the high end, given the unacceptable business risk of depending on such control-freak caprice. The laisse-faire world of PCs is bigger and better simply for that reason - an enormous swath of hardware and software that simply has to adhere to an objective technical standard.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  >I have a hard time seeing how any company could invest serious money into developing an app that Apple - in its sole judgement - can capriciously reject. I would bet that bigger companies with an influential base of customers are not capriciously rejected. A major airline or bank or some other business where Apple would catch PR flak is probably going to get personalized treatment.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gcheong 3y ago
  “I suspect Apple themselves don't realize that their own policies have inhibited the development of apps which would blow away what currently exist at the high end,…” I suspect they not only know this but are counting on it. Apple have become plain old monopolists and quality of product is not the first consideration because, by definition, there is no competition by which they would have to care in order to maintain their position in the marketplace.
- Terretta 3y ago
  > I developed several iPhone apps. ... capriciously reject Did you do these user hostile things? "Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications." You say "inhibited development of apps ... at the high end". On the contrary, these are all features of the lowest of the low end. Users want those inhibited.
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
worik 3y ago
This is a sad story It is repeated many times, this is not the first here Illustrates the problem with building businesses based on those "walled garden" services We have seen reports like this not just about the apple store, but about YouTube and Facebook too
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Did you actually see how the app is monetized by convincing people to pay $4.00/week for a subscription? He is one of the problems with the App Store
dakial1 3y ago
I don't know Chile, but this move by Apple is illegal in many countries and the developer might get a good money in damages. It doesn't matter what the platform T&Cs say, know your country's laws and you'll avoid unnecessary headaches. Now thinking about it, it might make sense for some developers to publish their apps in specific countries to mitigate this kind of risk...
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  What's the illegal part? Which country would this be illegal in?
  - spencerchubb 3y ago
    The illegal part is money theft. As for which country it's illegal in: all of them.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Most (all?) countries have the concept of "ill-gotten gains", in which money earned illegally or fraudulently isn't legally yours. Not saying that's what happened here, but discussing the idea of post-transaction entitlement.
Cypher 3y ago
wtf apple, sort your crap out.
scarface_74 3y ago
From even the authors description, it doesn’t seem like the review process was “automated”. Someone at Apple actually found suspected fraudulent activity and the reasons weren’t just a template. I don’t have an opinion on whether they were targeted by a third party.
dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
It's heartwarming to see finally someone take Apple to court on this! So many small developers have no chance to do that.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Yes it’s so heartwarming to see an app maker that charges 3.99 a week hoping people will forget about the subscription suing to keep his money.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
    Isn't it most trivial apps do these days? I wanted to install something recently and was appalled how omnipresent this pattern is. What Apple should do was to implement an obligatory attribute "needs subscription in order to operate" just like it has "Contains in-app purchases" currently. I could then avoid all this trash like a plague.
jensenbox 3y ago
Every time I read one of these stories, the first thought I have is: "We should be pushing to have PWA be more robust and be positioned as a first class citizen". My thinking is that would remove the need for a singular approval process. Liberating all developers to build what they want. Of course security is always a concern. PWA in sandboxes of some sort sounds like the best path forward.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  The problem is Apple still control the only browser engine on iOS. So they're incentivised to not implement proper PWA features to prevent this and force everything to be apps through their store.
- rchaud 3y ago
  That won't happen, because PWA support relies on Google and Apple doing the right thing with their browser engine. Chrome supports PWAs, but could deprecate it at any time. Firefox bizarrely does not support it without a config flag enabling "site-specific browser". It's effectively unsupported as the majority of users aren't going to be messing around in the settings.
otterley 3y ago
If you truly believe you were treated unfairly against Apple, you think they are in breach of contract or violating the law, and they are threatening your livelihood, then sue them. Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek.
- megous 3y ago
  If you really think you should comment on the article, at least read it first.
  - azakai 3y ago
    To add to that, here is the relevant part of the article: > We hired the law firm Buzko Krasnov to file a pre-trial claim against Apple.
- imdsm 3y ago
  > Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek. Unlikely but not impossible. In this case, it's less about the apps or the developer and more about the lack of specificity. If Apple suspend accounts without due process, that affects everyone within that ecosystem, and people should be concerned and should ask questions.
- jiayo 3y ago
  Another pumpkin that didn't RTFA.
awinter-py 3y ago
yes apple needs some kind of independent board of review like facebook and openai
bborud 3y ago
I can’t understand how people can feel comfortable depending on companies that will never talk to them.
joeframbach 3y ago
The change.org petition seems like a non sequitur in the article. What are you hoping to achieve by incrementing some counter in the void? Change.org is not the legal system nor is it Apple's customer service system. It is nothing.
runwhileyoucan 3y ago
App store is filled with these kind of apps that all look the same. Nothing innovative and filled with ads. They all do the same task and ask for subscription right-away and for your 5-star review in 2 seconds. I feel like you did too much FAFO to me.
jacquesm 3y ago
All of this is a direct consequence of allowing a gatekeeper in the first place. Every app developer is fractionally guilty of enabling Apple to position themselves as such. I've built a neat little bit of software and I'm sure I could monetize it by wrapping it up as an app. But there is no way that I'm going to give either Apple or Google more power than they already have so the development of the app is a bit slower than it otherwise would have been. But that's fine, releases still happen regularly and I'm having fun building it. If I needed the money to be able to work on it I would have possibly been forced out of this luxury position and I'd absolutely hate it.
- ajhurliman 3y ago
  All of these self-proclaimed “platforms” need to be regulated: no participation in your own platform (Amazon Basics), or at least no self-preferential treatment, caps on platform usage fees closer to 3-5%, neutral and open source search algorithms, limits on advertising. I’m a capitalist at heart but this is anti-competitive, it’s closer to feudalism than capitalism.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    We're perilously close to an internet that is entirely siloed, so instead of AOL we end up with two or maybe three more or less incompatible versions of AOL, and with far more control over the lives of their customers than AOL ever had. There is some chance that it will end up with only two of these players depending on who reaches the point where they have enough free cash that they can further consolidate, assuming regulators don't step in. Google on the one side, Apple on the other, with AWS owning retail and Microsoft absorbed by either Apple or Google (unless their OpenAI bet pays off further). FB up for grabs and Twitter will die. It could easily happen. So, which side of the web do you want to be on? I want to be on the open web, not in some walled garden, no matter who owns it.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Unless those companies are stopping someone from visiting different domains, I would not describe that as the internet being siloed. The most popular destinations on the internet may be “siloed”, or most business will occur in the silos, but the internet itself is as accessible as it ever was.
tokamak 3y ago
[flagged]
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Your physical location should mean nothing on the Internet.
- lionkor 3y ago
  You know what happens when you start this, right? The whole, jews cant have stores, thing? Remember?
  - ponector 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - lionkor 3y ago
      Why? Nazis can and do have stores. Not that its right, but its the case
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't use HN for nationalistic battle. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: if I had seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146547 at the time, I probably would have banned your account. You simply can't post like that here, regardless of which country you have a problem with. Please don't do it again.
m3kw9 3y ago
Does this (write fake reviews on competitor apps to cancel them) happen a lot to other developers? Would be open season for all copy cats not?
throwaway892238 3y ago
I don't understand why anyone tries to build a livelihood on these stupid platforms. It's a virtual certainty that you will get screwed over and have no recourse. If the platforms continue to be a major source of income for many people, then those people need to petition their elected representatives to force the platforms open. The OS has to give you a choice of browser, so the smartphone should have to give you a choice of app store.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  More and more people are doing their computing solely on smartphones, targeting one or two architectures is appealing to developers, and app stores are pretty much the only way in to that market. I do agree in that I personally wouldn't give mega corporations that much power over my livelihood.
snowbyte 3y ago
This is peanuts VS the sums of money frozen in FTX.
HeavyStorm 3y ago
When will the authorities realize that the app stores must be regulated? 30% cuts and you get removed with no warning, negotiation, nothing.
strongpigeon 3y ago
It’s hard to get a full picture, but reading the text reviews on Google Play [1] makes it seem like these app are the kind that require subscriptions for no reason and are really aggressive about asking for reviews. There’s also a big disconnect between the average of the text reviews and the “score only” ones. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sarafan.reely https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sarafan.re...
Davidmass7 3y ago
[dead]
BrenBarn 3y ago
And yet they're trying to convince the EU they're not a gatekeeper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38399123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38399123
OliverPersson 3y ago
[dead]
bdcravens 3y ago
What's the backend of the Rolly AI chat app like? Is it using ChatGPT in a manner that violates their TOS?
steponlego 3y ago
This is all shitware and you were commissioning fake reviews.
RecycledEle 3y ago
My best guess is that the Russian scammers stole OP's IP. I don't mean that they just copied it. I mean they prevented OP from using it. This has happened to me many, many times. This is yet another reason I hate IP laws.
BaldwinGeorge 3y ago
[dead]

Honestly, after looking through the "apps" they created and what little I could find about reviews for them, I am having a hard time not feeling that Apple was in the right here. On the other hand, I certainly understand that having your business shut down with little or no notice and right of appeal lies with the "prosecution" can feel crummy.

dado3212 3y ago
What makes you say that? The article is light on details about what the apps actually do, and why they might be violating.
- EwanG 3y ago
  Looking at "Fontly Color Fonts", and some of their other apps, they are mainly repackaging websites as an app. For example check out the actual website at - https://fontly.org/ https://fontly.org/ I don't think that's necessarily a "bad" thing but I hardly find it reasonable to believe they are charging for the privilege.
  - steezeburger 3y ago
    That app does not seem like a wrapper around that website you linked at all. Can you give me a specific example? I may just not be seeing it. One is a blog and free font repository, kinda. One is a collage maker.
adriand 3y ago
Seems like an unfair comment. I've had their Boomerang app on my phone for a long time. Made some fun stuff with it in the past, haven't used it in a while, but there wasn't anything particularly wrong with it. Just another niche app.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  I don’t think the Boomerang app is theirs. It doesn’t show up in the link of their Google Play apps. If it is, that’s Instagram’s trademark.
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    Apple allows “for X” and “powered by X” type app names per official policy cited by App Store reviewers There are other patterns they allow that I’m unfamiliar with. Perhaps “X Maker” is one of them because it appears there are many other developer accounts using this pattern from a quick search. The point is that using another trademark isn’t itself a violation necessarily
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Yes, but the app depicted doesn’t do that. https://about.instagram.com/blog/announcements/introducing-boomerang-video-app https://about.instagram.com/blog/announcements/introducing-b... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/boomerang-video-maker/id1454678540 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/boomerang-video-maker/id145467...
      - SushiHippie 3y ago
        The second link you provided isn't the boomerang app from instagram, it looks like the official one does not exist anymore.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- threeseed 3y ago
  There are a dozen Boomerang rip-off apps on the App Store. Would be surprised if you're even using theirs.
freedomben 3y ago
If you're going to say that, I think you need to explain why you feel like Apple was in the right. This sort of vagueness and ambiguity is extremely unfair to the accused, and this is notoriously what big tech does (and I think it's wrong). What is it about the apps that you feel either does or should violate policy?
- Terretta 3y ago
  > What is it about the apps that you feel either does or should violate policy? OK, using the article's words, let's count the ways: Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications. 6 apps * ~5 fixes = 30 problems ... they knew what they were doing
  - megous 3y ago
    I'm just glad the state doesn't work as you suggest, lol. "Dear citizen, we have detected wrongful behavior on your part. Stop doing the wrongful behavior. You should know what we mean. As long as the behavior continues, the state will appropriate 20% of your salary. Here is a list of behaviors that you might or might not have been engaging in: [link to the penal code]"
callalex 3y ago
Then why is Apple keeping the money instead of refunding it?

mortallywounded 3y ago

Something feels off... those apps don't seem like 33K/MRR worthy. I suspect some kind of manipulation was being done to... help?

deaddodo 3y ago
For sure, this seems super suspect. Unless they mean Chilean Pesos, but that would seem far too low.
- CR007 3y ago
  The guy lives in Chile but the company is registered at Hong Kong.
namanyayg 3y ago
One way apps get high MRR is by offering free trial for a small period, then charging for subscriptions later The user forgets about the subscriptions and ends up paying for a while before cancelling This is probably what apple means by "bait and switch" Of course I can't say if these app did this or not, I am just saying this is a common practice
- olliej 3y ago
  but remember the App Store review protects people from bait and switch! /s
- ssijak 3y ago
  that is done by literally 80% of the paid apps. so I suspect that is not the banned behavior. it's the same on the web, you sign up for a free trial but leave the CC
  - natch 3y ago
    “Everyone (80%) does it so it’s ok” That may be true but it may just be that Apple hates this but has trouble writing the right set of rules that don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. And then when they get the slightest excuse (the fake fake reviews yes double fake) then they take the opportunity to close the unpleasant account. Actually if 20% of the apps don’t do these scummy dark patterns, I’d just as soon see only those better apps in the store.

Namari 3y ago

In this case, where does this money goes? Is it refunded to the people who bought the apps or is it litterally stolen by Apple?

_just7_ 3y ago
Held in deposit forever, ie until someone sues someone else or the money are forgotten
- VHRanger 3y ago
  That goes to Apple then. The accounting liability gets erased after a few years and the asset stays on the books Like Starbucks gift cards that go unused.
wahnfrieden 3y ago
Apple holds it
- brookst 3y ago
  False. Google “escheatment”
  - djbusby 3y ago
    https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersescheat https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answersescheat
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    I am not sure that applies if Apple is deliberately withholding the money. Presumably they are making some claims as to breaking of laws or violating a policy. Enscheatment is more about forgotten money. The developer is very aware of their lack of access.
fbdab103 3y ago
Amusingly/sadly(?), I believe even if the money is eventually returned or enscheated, Apple can collect interest/invest the money the entire time.

Manuel_D 3y ago

If the fake reviews are indeed the reason why the apps were taken off the store, that does strike me as an inappropriate action. Take down the reviews, yes. But closing the developer account creates a big opportunity to eliminate competition by buying fake reviews for your competitors. There's also nothing developers can do to prevent this since they can't curate or reject reviews from what I know. That said, other commenters are pointing out a very large revenue figure relative to the popularity of these apps. That smells more like money laundering or fraud. In that scenario, Apple should have been more specific in their communications.

beeboobaa 3y ago
It's apple punishing you for their own failure to moderate the reviews posted to their store, which they're charging you $100+30% to access.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Considering how much data Apple also has on their users, it’s insane that they haven’t yet solved this problem.
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    Why would they if they can keep aka escrow $100k?
    - selectodude 3y ago
      $100k is literally meaningless to Apple.
      - nottheengineer 3y ago
        If any amount of money was meaningless to apple, they wouldn't be where they are today.

tmaly 3y ago

You are burying the lead in your story. You should put that right at the top.

SeanLuke 3y ago
Lede. Yes, it's an unusual word.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > "Both “bury the lede” and “bury the lead” are acceptable spellings of this phrase... Whether to use “lede” or “lead” depends on your audience and context. If you’re writing for a news publication or using the term in a journalistic context, “lede” is the preferred spelling. However, if you’re writing for a general audience or not referring specifically to journalism, either spelling is acceptable." https://proofed.com/writing-tips/idiom-tips-bury-the-lede-or-bury-the-lead https://proofed.com/writing-tips/idiom-tips-bury-the-lede-or... See also: > "The spelling lede is an alteration of lead, a word which, on its own, makes sense; after all, isn't the main information in a story found in the lead (first) paragraph? And sure enough, for many years lead was the preferred spelling for the introductory section of a news story. So how did we come to spell it lede? Although evidence dates the spelling to the 1970s, we didn't enter lede in our dictionaries until 2008." https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versus-lead https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/bury-the-lede-versu...
  - SeanLuke 3y ago
    etymologyonline says at least 1965. Other sources date to 1950. The term was invented to distinguish the head paragraph of a story specifically because it would cause confusion with "lead", which at the time was widely used in newspapers to refer to lead type and to actual strips used to add spacing between lines (indeed it's still called "leading" in typesetting). It is standard newspaper jargon. But more importantly, "bury the lede" is specifically a newspaper phrase. I think that saying it should be changed to "lead" for the uninformed is like saying that you should change "Smalltalk" to "Small Talk" when addressing the uniformed. No! It's Smalltalk. More importantly, HN is definitely not the uniformed when it comes to newspaper printing technology and journalism.

woadwarrior01 3y ago

This is very reminiscent of the Dash controversy from a few years ago. In that case Apple even responded with the details[0] of the developer's transgressions, after a huge outcry from the app dev community. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131

lapcat 3y ago
That link is very very far from the end of the Dash story, which includes the developer recording a phone call with Apple. See extensive coverage by Michael Tsai: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/10/apple-and-kapeli-respond/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/10/apple-and-kapeli-respond/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-the-app-store/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-t... Dash for macOS continues to this day, though not in the App Store.
- woadwarrior01 3y ago
  That very much was the end of the developer's sales of the Dash app on the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store. Apple decided to respond publicly only after he published the recording of the phone call with the Apple rep. John Gruber had a well-balanced coverage[1] of the whole story. He continues to sell it directly[2] and on Setapp[3], and has lately pivoted to the subscription-ware revenue model. [1]: https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy https://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy [2]: https://kapeli.com/dash https://kapeli.com/dash [3]: https://setapp.com/apps/dash https://setapp.com/apps/dash
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > That very much was the end of the developer's sales of the Dash app on the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store. Incorrect. I already gave a link showing that Dash returned to the iOS App Store: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-the-app-store/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-t... Technically, it was the end of "sales" in the iOS App Store, because the developer had already open-sourced Dash for iOS and made it free: https://github.com/Kapeli/Dash-iOS https://github.com/Kapeli/Dash-iOS Nonetheless, it's indisputable that Apple approved Dash to be in the iOS App Store in 2017. > Apple decided to respond publicly only after he published the recording of the phone call with the Apple rep. Also incorrect. Compare the timestamps of these tweets: https://twitter.com/theloop/status/785600832335073280 https://twitter.com/theloop/status/785600832335073280 5:00 PM · Oct 10, 2016 https://twitter.com/kapeli/status/785621704081022976 https://twitter.com/kapeli/status/785621704081022976 6:23 PM · Oct 10, 2016 It's also worth noting that selling directly outside the Mac App Store still requires an Apple developer account in order to sign with a Developer ID certificate and notarize the app. It's not surprising, though, that the developer chooses to no longer use the Mac App Store. Again, Michael Tsai's blog post has extensive coverage, including a link to the Daring Fireball post that you linked.

mk89 3y ago

From the reviews on play store it looks like the typical apps that spit ads like hell. Some complain about the fact they don't work, some are happy with them. Business as usual. Not sure why they got shutdown, probably the competition really burnt them with the fake reviews. That's really ugly.

skratlo 3y ago

The whole business model of living off of App stores, controlled by tech giants, is flawed, and no sane person should ever make this their sole source of income. It's like being held hostage.

r0ckarong 3y ago
It's like holding yourself hostage.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
blowski 3y ago
It's more like working in a world where there are rewards and risks. There is a good argument that the world as a whole would be better off without the current App Store model, but it makes sense for individuals to aim to profit from the existing model.
- tremon 3y ago
  The real world also has rewards and risks. It also has a judicial system where the actions of both parties are weighted and judged by an independent party. In that world, one party cannot summarily forfeit an outstanding balance owed to the other party.
realusername 3y ago
I also have the same (controversial maybe) opinion, the mobile stores are good enough for a hobby developer, they are not mature enough for real businesses. I'm going to launch another mobile app for some side income in the future but I'll never launch a real business based on that, that's for sure.
SenAnder 3y ago
This is getting to be a lot like "no sane peasant should farm the feudal lords land"
scarface_74 3y ago

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

Working with Apple is horrific, I have a small Saas company publishing fitness apps. They don't give a f**. They treat you like a peasant, while constantly making review mistakes (like asking questions explained all caps in the review notes), unexplained white screens, bugs & unreachable appstore connects. I often had an app rejected because IAPurchase takes too long because of Apple's server being too slow. Then they take days to respond just because they claim it's your mistake. On second try it works and they find something else to complain. Honestly bad karma. It will come back at some point. But it will take a while, the App Store is not build on quality & care, but on pure power.

candiddevmike 3y ago
There's nothing worse than arguing with a review tester that "this was fine before, why is it a problem now".
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
js2 3y ago
If it makes you feel any better, I work for a not small company and Apple and Google both treat our app submissions the same way. We have rejections so often we have a Slack channel dedicated to it, an internal FAQ, and automated checks we run before submitting. The "What's New" notes are a favorite for reviewers to nitpick. We recently had an app rejected because the "What's New" section included the phase "and other improvements." Nevermind that we'd been using that phrase for months.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
  Off late my biggest apps actually getting through easily. They have a whitelist system it seems. But also a blacklist, one mistake seems to pile up issues

absqueued 3y ago

Reading a few reviews on the playstore of this apps - instantly tells me that something is off. Asking for review after 20 second of app installation? Also most 5 star reveiw looks fake.

kalleboo 3y ago
We hired an "app revenue optimization" guy for an hour consultation just to see if we missed something obvious. One thing he suggested was to ask for a review instantly after the paywall. Apparently if you do that, most people will give a 5 star review. We haven't done it since it seems... weird? scammy? but apparently it's a thing that works for maximizing ranking (since reviews are a big influence)
- absqueued 3y ago
  Curious, do you think the mentality of buyers would be "I just paid, so it s 5"? And I am glad you didn't do it. I personally find it so annoying. I am do ask for reviews but lemme use it for a while first?
  - FinnKuhn 3y ago
    I would assume that people don't buy an App that they wouldn't give a positive review?
- rchaud 3y ago
  > Apparently if you do that, most people will give a 5 star review. We haven't done it since it seems... weird? scammy? This is what Uber does. Not just a 'rate your trip' but also the 'add a tip' prompt. Only way to get rid of the screen is to select something or hit Back a bunch of times.

max_ 3y ago

Too long, Don't Read; - OP develops apps - OP's apps get flagged and removed from iOS store for violating Appstore rules. - OP learns his app has been cloned down to the last pixel by one NIGII Technologies - OP learns that NIGII Technologies launched and attack on his "Rolly app" by paying fake accounts to make bogus reviews on OPs app account. - Attacker (NIGII Technologies) purchasing fake reviews to comment on OPs original app causes Apple to shut down OPs Apple Developer account. - OP wants you to help him sign a petition https://chng.it/5dpJHY6KGf https://chng.it/5dpJHY6KGf - OP would also want you to write a letter to the App review team appreview@apple.com

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Terretta 3y ago
But, before you write the letter, understand OP knew what they were doing: "Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications." All methods to juice and retain MRR at users' literal expense.

slezyr 3y ago

Russian guy saying that he is in Chile in the first sentence? Absolutely nothing suspicious. https://companies.rbc.ru/id/1215600010141-obschestvo-s-ogranichennoj-otvetstvennostyu-sarafan/ https://companies.rbc.ru/id/1215600010141-obschestvo-s-ogran... It is even a Russian company. It was registered a bit before the war started and liquidated not so long ago.

nmilo 3y ago
This is literally just racism.
- gorbachev 3y ago
  No. Russian is not a race. It's bigotry, however.
  - nmilo 3y ago
    I'm so glad you got to be technically correct today.
    - gorbachev 3y ago
      I'm glad I could be of service. You're welcome.
- 15155 3y ago
  Which race is being implicated?
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    East Slavic
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      I would call it xenophobia.

chad1n 3y ago

It's pretty embarrassing for Apple because it's a pretty common thing for Apple to close random developer accounts with pretty respectable applications. At least, Google is a little bit more transparent from my experience, I could easily publish my application there, but on Apple, you have to go through tons of mental gymnastics and their cerficates are $100/year compared to one $20 certificate from Google.

RainbowFriends 3y ago

Hitting the front page of Hacker News will lead to a much cheaper resolution of this issue than paying their law firm.

silenced_trope 3y ago
Hopefully. Honestly it sucks but when this happens with Google and others there's sometimes a person in the comments here: "Send me your info and I'll escalate this internally". Which also sucks, but the PR at least has some impact. I think it's doubtful that this kind of PR impacts Apple as much.
rchaud 3y ago
This isn't a Stripe issue.

Obscurity4340 3y ago

Blow it up, peepz. First they come for him...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

kojeovo 3y ago

Not that I am arguing in favor for how things currently work re Apple's ecosystem, but from a quick look it seems like these apps bait you into paying and the developer is just completely ignoring that part. I think that's what Apple is not fond of.

belltaco 3y ago
If that's the case, Apple should refund or pay out the $108K before closing the account with that explanation.
- constantly 3y ago
  Apple should give this developer the benefit of their shady practices? That just encourages more apps like this.
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    There are all sorts of crap apps with dark patterns. Apple can say, "We no longer condone this behavior," but that does not give them the right to steal the current money. Return it to the scammed or give it to the developer.
Oras 3y ago
The question is, why did Apple approved the app in the first place? This was an update and the app was making money (according to the article).

ilamont 3y ago

Many platforms have this issue. While some freezes are deserved, others are false positives or account problems that are difficult to resolve. Amazon sellers live in dread of this scenario, not only because of the frozen funds, but also the inability to get a clear answer of what policy was broken. Or, Amazon's automated shutdowns make accusations that are impossible to disprove such as review manipulation or running multiple seller accounts. You can see a sample here: https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG

olliej 3y ago

It remains absurd that corporations can do this shit (PayPal does this a lot, I recall various other articles over the years for other companies as well), and there are no consequences. Delayed payment should have mandatory penalties along the lines a normal person would get for failure to pay a bill. Seriously, if you think it’s fraud then there should be a police report, if it’s a ToS violation close the account and ban the user, but if they haven’t actually committed fraud it’s their money.

lolinder 3y ago

I get that everyone feels strongly about abuse of power by these app stores, but I wish stories like this would stop making it to the front page. Often, the company trying to build outrage knows very well what they've done and is lying to try to get a mob going to get what they want. The pattern is usually the same: the story gets a lot of upvotes from people who don't pause to think about the story, the first few comments are filled with outrage, and then the more thoughtful comments trickle in pointing out all the holes in their claims (in this case, weirdly large revenue numbers and many dark patterns described in reviews that line up with Apple's assertions). But by the time the commenters have done the research and figured out that the story is overblown, it's already too late: the company got the attention they wanted. "A lie can get halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." I don't doubt that there are people who are actually damaged illegitimately by unilateral actions like this, but every time we swarm to upvote a fishy one like this, the effectiveness of HN as an escalation platform gets weaker.

deadmutex 3y ago
Underrated comment
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pvg 3y ago
Flag them and/or email the mods. That actually works whereas the meta exhortations mostly don't and just beget more meta.
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
Submit a few iOS apps and you will understand why these stories rank so high. Apple makes you feel powerless

paradite 3y ago

I've been collecting these deplatform actions over the years. Only 2 so far in 2023 that I recorded: https://github.com/paradite/awful-deplatform https://github.com/paradite/awful-deplatform

cptaj 3y ago

This keeps happening again and again in all online marketplaces. Be it amazon, ebay, app stores, etc. This NEEDS to be regulated. If thousands of companies make a living in your marketplace, you simply can't be allowed to take destructive unilateral action against their business without due process. One guy reviewing tickets in a random location worldwide, working for minimum wage, takes a 30 second look at your case and closes down your account. Your company loses millions and goes out of business before any dispute even gets processed (If they even have a dispute system) This is simply an insane way of doing business.

deleted 3y ago
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Longhanks 3y ago
> This is simply an insane way of doing business. Then don't? Apple clearly lays out the rules beforehand? I don’t see how "being able to sell software on the platform a company allows you to sell on yet not following the platform creator's rules" should be a human right? If you don't want to take the risk of Apple disapproving you selling your software on their platform, maybe don't start a business depending on Apple not doing so?
- adontz 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law
- n6242 3y ago
  Having a warranty or a return policy is not a human right either, yet companies are obligated by law to do it (at least here in Europe) because otherwise companies would just say "you knew what you were getting when you bought it" and not give a damn as long as they profit from it, just like apple is doing here.
  - Longhanks 3y ago
    You can only claim the warranty if you follow rules, such as: You didn’t willingly break the item. Violating this rule weaves the right to return the item (and getting your money back). So why should Apple be forced to keep you on their platform if you willingly break their rules?

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RagnarD 3y ago

I developed several iPhone apps. While I didn't run into something as serious as this, I have a hard time seeing how any company could invest serious money into developing an app that Apple - in its sole judgement - can capriciously reject. I am greatly in favor of competing app stores and the unequivocal ability to "sideload" any apps (at the user's risk of course.) I suspect Apple themselves don't realize that their own policies have inhibited the development of apps which would blow away what currently exist at the high end, given the unacceptable business risk of depending on such control-freak caprice. The laisse-faire world of PCs is bigger and better simply for that reason - an enormous swath of hardware and software that simply has to adhere to an objective technical standard.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
>I have a hard time seeing how any company could invest serious money into developing an app that Apple - in its sole judgement - can capriciously reject. I would bet that bigger companies with an influential base of customers are not capriciously rejected. A major airline or bank or some other business where Apple would catch PR flak is probably going to get personalized treatment.
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gcheong 3y ago
“I suspect Apple themselves don't realize that their own policies have inhibited the development of apps which would blow away what currently exist at the high end,…” I suspect they not only know this but are counting on it. Apple have become plain old monopolists and quality of product is not the first consideration because, by definition, there is no competition by which they would have to care in order to maintain their position in the marketplace.
Terretta 3y ago
> I developed several iPhone apps. ... capriciously reject Did you do these user hostile things? "Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications." You say "inhibited development of apps ... at the high end". On the contrary, these are all features of the lowest of the low end. Users want those inhibited.

varelse 3y ago

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worik 3y ago

This is a sad story It is repeated many times, this is not the first here Illustrates the problem with building businesses based on those "walled garden" services We have seen reports like this not just about the apple store, but about YouTube and Facebook too

scarface_74 3y ago
Did you actually see how the app is monetized by convincing people to pay $4.00/week for a subscription? He is one of the problems with the App Store

dakial1 3y ago

I don't know Chile, but this move by Apple is illegal in many countries and the developer might get a good money in damages. It doesn't matter what the platform T&Cs say, know your country's laws and you'll avoid unnecessary headaches. Now thinking about it, it might make sense for some developers to publish their apps in specific countries to mitigate this kind of risk...

madeofpalk 3y ago
What's the illegal part? Which country would this be illegal in?
- spencerchubb 3y ago
  The illegal part is money theft. As for which country it's illegal in: all of them.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Most (all?) countries have the concept of "ill-gotten gains", in which money earned illegally or fraudulently isn't legally yours. Not saying that's what happened here, but discussing the idea of post-transaction entitlement.

Cypher 3y ago

wtf apple, sort your crap out.

scarface_74 3y ago

From even the authors description, it doesn’t seem like the review process was “automated”. Someone at Apple actually found suspected fraudulent activity and the reasons weren’t just a template. I don’t have an opinion on whether they were targeted by a third party.

dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago

It's heartwarming to see finally someone take Apple to court on this! So many small developers have no chance to do that.

scarface_74 3y ago
Yes it’s so heartwarming to see an app maker that charges 3.99 a week hoping people will forget about the subscription suing to keep his money.
- dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
  Isn't it most trivial apps do these days? I wanted to install something recently and was appalled how omnipresent this pattern is. What Apple should do was to implement an obligatory attribute "needs subscription in order to operate" just like it has "Contains in-app purchases" currently. I could then avoid all this trash like a plague.

jensenbox 3y ago

Every time I read one of these stories, the first thought I have is: "We should be pushing to have PWA be more robust and be positioned as a first class citizen". My thinking is that would remove the need for a singular approval process. Liberating all developers to build what they want. Of course security is always a concern. PWA in sandboxes of some sort sounds like the best path forward.

ThatPlayer 3y ago
The problem is Apple still control the only browser engine on iOS. So they're incentivised to not implement proper PWA features to prevent this and force everything to be apps through their store.
rchaud 3y ago
That won't happen, because PWA support relies on Google and Apple doing the right thing with their browser engine. Chrome supports PWAs, but could deprecate it at any time. Firefox bizarrely does not support it without a config flag enabling "site-specific browser". It's effectively unsupported as the majority of users aren't going to be messing around in the settings.

otterley 3y ago

If you truly believe you were treated unfairly against Apple, you think they are in breach of contract or violating the law, and they are threatening your livelihood, then sue them. Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek.

megous 3y ago
If you really think you should comment on the article, at least read it first.
- azakai 3y ago
  To add to that, here is the relevant part of the article: > We hired the law firm Buzko Krasnov to file a pre-trial claim against Apple.
imdsm 3y ago
> Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek. Unlikely but not impossible. In this case, it's less about the apps or the developer and more about the lack of specificity. If Apple suspend accounts without due process, that affects everyone within that ecosystem, and people should be concerned and should ask questions.
jiayo 3y ago
Another pumpkin that didn't RTFA.

awinter-py 3y ago

yes apple needs some kind of independent board of review like facebook and openai

bborud 3y ago

I can’t understand how people can feel comfortable depending on companies that will never talk to them.

joeframbach 3y ago

The change.org petition seems like a non sequitur in the article. What are you hoping to achieve by incrementing some counter in the void? Change.org is not the legal system nor is it Apple's customer service system. It is nothing.

runwhileyoucan 3y ago

App store is filled with these kind of apps that all look the same. Nothing innovative and filled with ads. They all do the same task and ask for subscription right-away and for your 5-star review in 2 seconds. I feel like you did too much FAFO to me.

jacquesm 3y ago

All of this is a direct consequence of allowing a gatekeeper in the first place. Every app developer is fractionally guilty of enabling Apple to position themselves as such. I've built a neat little bit of software and I'm sure I could monetize it by wrapping it up as an app. But there is no way that I'm going to give either Apple or Google more power than they already have so the development of the app is a bit slower than it otherwise would have been. But that's fine, releases still happen regularly and I'm having fun building it. If I needed the money to be able to work on it I would have possibly been forced out of this luxury position and I'd absolutely hate it.

ajhurliman 3y ago
All of these self-proclaimed “platforms” need to be regulated: no participation in your own platform (Amazon Basics), or at least no self-preferential treatment, caps on platform usage fees closer to 3-5%, neutral and open source search algorithms, limits on advertising. I’m a capitalist at heart but this is anti-competitive, it’s closer to feudalism than capitalism.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  We're perilously close to an internet that is entirely siloed, so instead of AOL we end up with two or maybe three more or less incompatible versions of AOL, and with far more control over the lives of their customers than AOL ever had. There is some chance that it will end up with only two of these players depending on who reaches the point where they have enough free cash that they can further consolidate, assuming regulators don't step in. Google on the one side, Apple on the other, with AWS owning retail and Microsoft absorbed by either Apple or Google (unless their OpenAI bet pays off further). FB up for grabs and Twitter will die. It could easily happen. So, which side of the web do you want to be on? I want to be on the open web, not in some walled garden, no matter who owns it.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Unless those companies are stopping someone from visiting different domains, I would not describe that as the internet being siloed. The most popular destinations on the internet may be “siloed”, or most business will occur in the silos, but the internet itself is as accessible as it ever was.

tokamak 3y ago

[flagged]

LoganDark 3y ago
Your physical location should mean nothing on the Internet.
lionkor 3y ago
You know what happens when you start this, right? The whole, jews cant have stores, thing? Remember?
- ponector 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - lionkor 3y ago
    Why? Nazis can and do have stores. Not that its right, but its the case
dang 3y ago
Please don't use HN for nationalistic battle. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: if I had seen https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146547 at the time, I probably would have banned your account. You simply can't post like that here, regardless of which country you have a problem with. Please don't do it again.

m3kw9 3y ago

Does this (write fake reviews on competitor apps to cancel them) happen a lot to other developers? Would be open season for all copy cats not?

throwaway892238 3y ago

I don't understand why anyone tries to build a livelihood on these stupid platforms. It's a virtual certainty that you will get screwed over and have no recourse. If the platforms continue to be a major source of income for many people, then those people need to petition their elected representatives to force the platforms open. The OS has to give you a choice of browser, so the smartphone should have to give you a choice of app store.

ravenstine 3y ago
More and more people are doing their computing solely on smartphones, targeting one or two architectures is appealing to developers, and app stores are pretty much the only way in to that market. I do agree in that I personally wouldn't give mega corporations that much power over my livelihood.

snowbyte 3y ago

This is peanuts VS the sums of money frozen in FTX.

HeavyStorm 3y ago

When will the authorities realize that the app stores must be regulated? 30% cuts and you get removed with no warning, negotiation, nothing.

strongpigeon 3y ago

It’s hard to get a full picture, but reading the text reviews on Google Play [1] makes it seem like these app are the kind that require subscriptions for no reason and are really aggressive about asking for reviews. There’s also a big disconnect between the average of the text reviews and the “score only” ones. [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sarafan.reely https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sarafan.re...

Davidmass7 3y ago

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BrenBarn 3y ago

And yet they're trying to convince the EU they're not a gatekeeper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38399123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38399123

OliverPersson 3y ago

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bdcravens 3y ago

What's the backend of the Rolly AI chat app like? Is it using ChatGPT in a manner that violates their TOS?

steponlego 3y ago

This is all shitware and you were commissioning fake reviews.

RecycledEle 3y ago

My best guess is that the Russian scammers stole OP's IP. I don't mean that they just copied it. I mean they prevented OP from using it. This has happened to me many, many times. This is yet another reason I hate IP laws.

BaldwinGeorge 3y ago

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