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Las Vegas Sphere reports $98.4M loss; CFO quits
- seydor 3y agothere goes the future of cinema
- t3rabytes 3y agoI gotta be honest, I'm not sure what was expected? They spent $2b building this thing, it's brand new tech, it didn't host many shows last quarter (it was open for 1? full month of the quarter). I still think The Sphere is super damn cool and I can't wait to go to an event there.
- extraduder_ire 3y agoThe loss seems surprisingly low, considering the cost of building the thing. I don't expect this to end up like Brand-Briesen Airfield, or other massive buildings built and quickly sold at bankruptcy, anytime soon.
- alexstore06 3y agoI would assume that operating loss wouldn't include the initial cost of building. Could be wrong though.
- lacksconfidence 3y agoCould be loan repayments are rolled into the loss? Not that I have any particular knowledge.
- mvdtnz 3y agoYou don't need to assume, it's confirmed in the very first sentence of the article.
- aplummer 3y agoYeah if this was a stock, I’d be buying it today. The thing is great.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoYou'd want to wait to be part of recapitalization after a reorg is required. The deal is made on the buy, not buying someone else's bags. EDIT: See gosub100's comment [1]. (not investing advice, educational purposes only) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206727
- nonethewiser 3y agoSure sounds like investing advice
- jon-wood 3y agoYes, but they’ve said it isn’t, which is apparently sufficient even if you run an ad saying “InvestCo is great, you can make a ton of money from them [terms & conditions apply, you may actually lose money instead, not investment advice]”
- maxerickson 3y agoIt's a silly affectation rooted in lawyers commenting about a generality in a context where specifics might be inferred.
- maxerickson 3y agoNot English, just looks like it. Assume meanings of words at your own risk.
- LastTrain 3y agoI have a feeling this one’s a bit different, the operating costs to keep that ball of one-off technology running have to be insane.
- glitcher 3y agoSame reaction here. For such a huge investment wouldn't you expect it to take some time before it becomes profitable? Live shows are only one piece of the puzzle. I really want to go see the "postcard from earth" short film they made especially for the Sphere. The filming required all kinds of specialized camera gear to take full advantage of the resolution and 3d viewing inside, so it's no wonder there isn't going to be an immediate catalog of titles to choose from for selling more tickets.
- derefr 3y agoIt hosts shows? And here I had assumed it was just a big weirdly-shaped billboard, and that their business model was "selling ads on it."
- tw04 3y agoThey're also basically killing any locals going with the cost of concessions and probably driving a lot of people to just not spend any money there. At $40 for a double shot and $20 for a beer, I'd be drinking before I got to the venue if that were my thing. https://www.outkick.com/drink-prices-vegas-sphere-beer-liquor/ https://www.outkick.com/drink-prices-vegas-sphere-beer-liquo...
- cflewis 3y agoIt's the Strip, I'd assume you were pretty buzzed before you rolled up. That's probably part of the math here.
- s3p 3y agoThat doesn't make any sense. If you were already buzzed before going, then you would need a cheaper price to continue drinking, since you already have some in you. If you were dead sober and wanted to drink, then it makes sense to shell out the money.
- sfitz 3y agoIf you were already buzzed before going, you're probably not making super sound financial decisions inside.
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoIt's Vegas, people don't go there to make sound financial decisions :P Possible counter-strategy is that the prices are high so people stay relatively tame inside. Who wants to pay ($20/unit of alcohol) to even try to get drunk?
- ryandrake 3y agoYea anyone who's visited Vegas knows that from the time your plane lands to when you takeoff, you're basically just spewing money to everyone constantly. I think there are at least 5-10 people just between your airline gate and your hotel room door with their hands out looking for tips. Not a place to go if you're frugal.
- ToucanLoucan 3y agoNot only is it brand new, any prospective performance looking to book there is going to have to essentially create a bespoke show for that single venue only, that will not be able to be played anywhere else what with the big ass spherical screen being the primary differentiator. In my mind this is like if you were to build the first IMAX theater if IMAX wasn't already a thing. You'd basically be asking Hollywood to create a special version of a movie for your single venue. Like... I'm sure some will take that up, as evident by it hosting a few shows. But it can't possibly be an "open every night" situation, the economics just don't make sense for that.
- rdelpret 3y agoWhile your team would still need to be involved creatively, I would hope the sphere has an in house team to create content as well?
- ToucanLoucan 3y agoI would assume so but that means the venue itself is then subsidizing the cost of the performance, which means the tickets/refreshments/etc have to be more expensive. And like, I want to emphasize: this thing is extremely cool. I love shit like this. I wish we could have more really cool things like this. But when your entire thrust is to make money... I mean I wish them all the success in the world but you'll have to put me down as a skeptic if they'll be able to, especially given how razor thin margins tend to be in the entertainment sector when the venue can just host regular ass shows that any venue can.
- enragedcacti 3y agoyep, they have a team and a studio in Burbank, including a functional (internal) miniature of the sphere and an in-house camera system: https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/sphere-technologists-develop-special-camera-for-upcoming-films-2792784/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/sphere-techno... https://www.google.com/maps/place/5MV2%2B4M,+Burbank,+CA https://www.google.com/maps/place/5MV2%2B4M,+Burbank,+CA
- gadders 3y agoThis seems to be a pattern for expensive infra projects: - Original company builds expensive piece of infrastructure - Original company fails to make money on expensive piece of infrastructure - Original company goes bust - New company buys infrastructure cheap - New company manages to run a profitable business See Eurotunnel, Iridium, probably others I've forgotten.
- jjkeddo199 3y agoIt goes further back than this -- What do you think happened to the "joint stock companies" that funded English settlers going to the Americas? ;)
- raverbashing 3y agoIt's almost like MBAs teach C-level "executives" to have a goldfish time range understanding of profits
- userinanother 3y agoStarted with the railroads
- didgetmaster 3y agoMakes you wonder if that wasn't the plan all along. The original company has a lot of investors who would share a big percentage of the profits if it is successful. Those in charge fix things so that those investors are shed and all the profits are instead funneled to entities they control exclusively.
- tootie 3y agoI can imagine a ton of logistical constraints. They have U2 doing a residence, and I'd guess that residences are going to be the only options. Designing visuals on such a unique and complex display to match a specific artist is at least a few person-months of effort. You have to plan shows very far in advance and spend a lot of money on show production. This likely excludes anyone but the top-tier performers. And the exterior is basically just a giant ad. It's not a revenue-generator since you don't need tickets to see it.
- brewdad 3y agoYes the design of the Sphere means it will never be a successful venue for touring acts. Any entertainer performing there will have to be committed to at least a month of shows, probably more. That said, it's a unique concert experience even setting the visuals aside. The sound is immersive, coming from all around you rather than the wall of sound typical of most concerts. As such, while still plenty loud, your ears are not completely destroyed by the end of the night should you forget your hearing protection.
- andy800 3y agoThe fact that the exterior is a giant ad is exactly what makes it a revenue generator
- tonyjin 3y agoI saw both the U2 show and Postcard from Earth movie. Both were amazing in their own way, but the movie was a better demonstration of the technology if you have to choose one (and if you're not a big U2 fan). The Sphere partnered with an immersive sound company Holoplot to design and build the sound system (https://holoplot.com/news/sphere-immersive-sound-powered-by-holoplot https://holoplot.com/news/sphere-immersive-sound-powered-by-...) - this was very impressive during the movie and you could locate sound coming from exactly where the objects were on the screen in a way that I've not experienced before. The experience was similar to wearing a VR headset since the screen covers almost your entire field of view, but the sound system significantly improved the feeling of immersion. During the movie, the system also pushed air onto the audience to simulate wind in a convincing way.
- fanf2 3y agoSounds like an IMAX Dome.
- joezydeco 3y agoIf a U2 residency couldn't pay the bills...what will?
- vondur 3y agoI was looking at getting tickets for an event, and it looks like it sells out quite frequently. Hopefully they don't shut it down.
- vidanay 3y ago> Hopefully they don't shut it down. It will probably be disassembled and moved to Dubai. /s
- extraduder_ire 3y agoI'm sure the Dubaites would prefer to build their own, but even larger.
- boeingUH60 3y agoAstana will happily take it.
- hef19898 3y agoAnd put next to the big wheel they never used?
- lvspiff 3y agobuild 2 - right at the base of the Burj Khalifa
- Mistletoe 3y ago> The New York Post reported Tuesday that Ranji suddenly quit after a bout of yelling and screaming from CEO James Dolan. Been there done that and you don’t have to put up with abusive behavior like this in 2023. Good on him for leaving. Didn’t know Dolan had spread his dysfunction and entitled rich boy show to the desert also.
- schaefer 3y agoI'm local, and curious. If I go to the official website[1] to view all shows, they redirect me to the hellscape that is ticketmaster. That is literally only friction it takes before I'm out. The scalpers are squatting your 2 billion dollar venue. [1]: https://www.thespherevegas.com/shows https://www.thespherevegas.com/shows
- nightski 3y agoFrom what I understand you can't scalp, they scan ID. There are many tik toks of people buying tickets from either 3rd parties online or just scalpers and they are rejected at check in.
- munk-a 3y agoStill, the involvement of ticketmaster will scare off a lot of potential customers - that company is more toxic than saying "Brought to you by Comcast and Bank of America".
- nightski 3y agoTaylor swift used ticketmaster and I'd say her eras tour was quite successful despite it. So I wouldn't blame that as the factor for the Sphere's success or failure even if I dislike the choice.
- munk-a 3y agoIf Taylor Swift had required fans to register in person at a DMV in a series of three different appointments two weeks apart she still would have sold out - when the demand is that high it becomes a bad data point for comparison.
- rurp 3y agoAs someone who doesn't follow Taylor Swift at all, the two stories that filtered through to me were * Lots of people were pissed at Ticketmaster * The tour was a big success It seems like it was a success despite ticketmaster.
- meindnoch 3y agoI knew it was a bubble :^)
- lvspiff 3y agoHow is this thing not filling nightly with $1000 tickets to Laser Floyd? Vegas has dispensaries - this seems like a no brainer.
- goatforce5 3y agoI visited Vegas for the first time this year and I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would. I was surprised to learn that, despite its reputation as a party city, it isn't technically legal to consume cannabis on the Strip. I guess it's in the interests of MGM and Caesars to keep the alcohol flowing, and all of the profit that comes from that.
- bluedino 3y agoTechnically? It's all you can smell when you're in that stretch between Linq and Flamingo
- cmcaleer 3y agoTechnically is the correct term to use here. It's de jure illegal but de facto fine.
- goatforce5 3y agoWhile all that is true, I try to avoid breaking the law when visiting foreign countries. I wouldn't want to make future travel unnecessarily complicated.
- junar 3y agoIf you're not a US citizen, abstaining sounds wise. > while laws governing marijuana in individual U.S. states and other nations may change, CBP will continue to enforce U.S. Federal Law, which prohibits the possession of marijuana ... > Aliens must overcome all grounds of inadmissibility, including admissions of past violations of controlled substance law. Possession and/or admission to the use of marijuana by an alien may result in the refusal of admission. https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2022-Sep/PAG%20Marijuana%20Legalization%20FINAL%20100918_Redacted.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/202...
- klaussilveira 3y agoWent to buy tickets, was redirected to Ticketmaster. There's the issue.
- lucasmullens 3y agoDon't most successful venues use Ticketmaster?
- gosub100 3y agoThe vegas strip is full of real estate stories where a major undertaking flops initially but gets turned around. The stratosphere was built, sold at a huge loss, and then flipped for an enormous profit (I'm sure there's way more to the story that others are aware of). I wouldn't be surprised if the Sphere ends up the same. I'm really excited to see it, it's very cool thinking about the potential for promoting visual art.
- boringg 3y agoRight -- shed the early obligations and flip it. Early investors lose money turn around investors make money.
- bsenftner 3y agoSomething tells me there is a tax avoidance scheme whereby these investments are intentionally engineered failures that generate the financial manipulators shockingly high paybacks.
- boeingUH60 3y agoYou're reading too many conspiracy theories. Life is more mundane; investors bet money on grandiose stuff and some of their bets fail.
- gosub100 3y agoI was thinking the opposite: like it's some strange way to pay the "true cost" of the property, by first paying inflation-saddles prices, going bankrupt in the process and leave the first investors holding the bag.
- falcolas 3y agoMeta: Someone please correct me. The outside of the Sphere is pretty damned awesome, with its interactive elements and novelty. I'd visit Vegas just to watch it, not that they'd make any money off me for that. The inside looks like an IMAX theater combined with a few planetarium features (lazors?). And, well, I have a really nice IMAX theater only an hour away from me. Why would I pay a premium to see the one in Vegas? EDIT: Thank you, everyone, for correcting me! Good to know.
- albeebe1 3y agoit's amazing. You've never seen anything like it before, and the sound is like nothing you've ever heard before.
- Retric 3y agoPeople go to Vegas for other things. The question is if you would go there when you’re already in Vegas.
- tomatocracy 3y agoThe Sphere has generated a lot of interest beyond people who are already visiting Vegas anyway, at least so far - for example, a colleague of mine in London visited Vegas last month just to go to the U2 show.
- jaredwiener 3y agoIt's not really IMAX -- it's more immersive. I saw the Postcard from Planet Earth in there -- it isn't a full 360 screen, but it does go way up and down around you.
- fullshark 3y agoLook on youtube for some shots from inside, it's bigger and more immersive.
- corysama 3y agoIMAX digital is a full-FOV 4:3 4K display with 44 speakers. The Sphere interior is a wrap-around 16K display with 168,000 interference-coordinated speakers. It’s like IMAX squared :P
- austinkhale 3y agoIt seems the operating loss may have been expected for the quarter and the CFO's departure could be unrelated. Always difficult to tell in these scenarios but the Sphere officially opened on September 29th. I find it hard to believe they expected to be in the black within less than 45 days. Source: https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/media/sphere-cfo-quit-after-james-dolans-yelling-screaming-source/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/media/sphere-cfo-quit-after-ja...
- mmanfrin 3y agoIt was open for 2 days of the fiscal quarter. The CFO quit after being yelled at by the notoriously combative CEO. The news has been running with this headline because it's drawing clicks but it's not really painting an accurate picture.
- erulabs 3y agoIsn’t “not screaming your executive into quitting” kind of a leaders main job?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sgt 3y agoMany feel the opposite. How can you ensure people are working, unless they truly fear you? Make a mistake and you are in deep, deep trouble, buddy. Straight to the pit!
- stcredzero 3y agoHistory has shown that it's a graceful balancing of carrot and stick that works the best with intelligent biological organisms. The field of psychology generally corroborates this, I think.
- meroes 3y agoWhat were Einstein’s or Newton’s stick?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jareklupinski 3y agothe shame of letting a good mind go to waste
- Havoc 3y agoInitially thought it would be a useless gimmick but judging by social media reaction it seems that was wrong. It’s popular and I suspect on track to become a unique attraction
- jzb 3y agoI have a friend who went to see the U2 show there and they had lots of praise for it as a venue. U2 isn't quite interesting enough to me for me to pay for the tickets and travel, but if a band I'm really into were playing there... I'd probably find the money. (If any booking agents or whatever are reading this... get The Cure to do a residency and I'm there. If you can get the Talking Heads to do a reunion show there, you'll be printing money...)
- gopher_space 3y agoSome bands you see live because you like their music, and some bands you see live because it's a party. U2 has been working on the multimedia side of their live performance for a few decades and they've come up with quite a show.
- jzb 3y agoDepends on the concert goer, really. At this particular time in my life, I'm not really interested in the spectacle so much as the love of the music, so the "it's a party" doesn't have the same appeal for me. I'd rather see someone like Colin Hay play an acoustic set in a small venue where I can sit and have a whiskey than a big stadium thingy from a band that I like but don't love. The Cure have the full package, for me: The spectacle, the amazing sound live, and their music really resonates with me in a way that U2 doesn't. I did see U2 on the Joshua Tree anniversary tour - and it was a great spectacle. My wife, who loves them, was over the moon. I was moderately entertained. Would've been a huge waste of money if I'd gone solo, but it was worth it because she loved it.
- jzb 3y agoAnd one more add: Barenaked Ladies are the best value for my dollar when I do want the "it's a party" vibe. Not so much spectacle, but damn are their live shows fun. Some of their music really resonates with me but their live show prowess kicks it up several notches.
- nixass 3y agoLas Vegas is like Dubai but with alcohol. Such a desperate place.
- hoofhearted 3y agoThe only minor difference is about 80 years of economic activity; and a few super secret military projects, including one that helped launch the atomic age. Also the two cities both have modern engineering marvels in their own right. Just one had a really tall building that served as a symbol of power, but with no real purpose. The other has a massive dam that took amazing diplomacy and bureaucracy to convince 7 states and Mexico to agree to tame a wild and destructive river; in exchange for generating power, and using the revenue to fund itself.
- lm28469 3y agoIt's bad but it's not that bad. Vegas is cool if your definition of cool matches what a 50 years old recently divorced person with too much money/time and not enough hobbies finds cool. Dubai is cool if your definition of cool is "money" (and you're fairly tolerant with slave labor and human right violation)
- 725686 3y agoIf you think The Sphere is cool from the outside, wait until you see the inside. The humongous spherical screen in the inside is amazing (16K resolution according to Wikipedia). U2 is sold out, and the tickets are not cheap (I payed $500 for a partially obstructed view of the screen, others run at $1,500), plus the "Sphere experience" so I think it will pay out. There is also "The Sphere Experience" movie at $50 a pop. A Capacity of about 19,000 people.
- chikitabanana 3y agoCurious, what does partially obstructed mean in the context of the sphere?
- brewdad 3y agoThere are seats in the lower section that sit partially underneath the second level. You will get a great view of the band and stage but lose some of the projections going on all around you. We sat in the 5th row of the 300 level. The visuals were amazing there but the stage was quite far away. If you can afford it, something towards the front of the 200 section would be the sweet spot between being closer to the stage and positioned to be fully immersed in the lights show.
- Kye 3y agoYou might say it's in bad shape.
- hindsightbias 3y agoTime for a public bailout. Decades back in downtown Houston there was an art display of very large screens (plasma I think) in an array angled over a reflecting pool. It played some weird psychedelic imagery in a loop. Maybe Tranquility Park, I forget. Back then, downtown was desolate after 6pm so I cut through it at dusk for some scenery. There was a homeless guy wearing a Santa cap standing across the pool from the screens. It was December. Leaning to one side and a bottle in hand. I joined him and after awhile he asked "what does it mean?" I said I didn't know but he should let us know when he found out. Gave him some money. When I think of this sphere, we should put a nuclear plant and AGI in it and it can play some part in a dystopian future where it's the final altar of the technostellasphere.
- heisenbit 3y agoThis was a huge investment and now the CFO is gone - makes one wonder how it was financed and what role the increased interest rates played.
- yieldcrv 3y ago> Ranji suddenly quit after a bout of yelling and screaming from CEO James Dolan. seems just like boundary setting to me thats becoming popular and this is clearly a person that has the privilege of choice, so there is zero reason to put up with that for some shares 4 years from now corporate loyalty for optics? yeah forget that
- TradingPlaces 3y agoThis only includes 2 U2 shows, which netted $4.1 million together. Q4 will be the real first operational report from them.
- logicalmonster 3y agoI despise giving an endorsement to anything Dolan is associated with and can profit from as he is an awful and genuinely petty human, but the Sphere is a technology worth seeing. I wasn't super impressed with the sphere's screen when I went in there with the thing turned off and saw the very steep stairs to the seats. It initially looked like a bigger movie screen. But once it's on, with the right shot, it completely envelops your field of view and is quite mesmerizing. I'd love to see some action movies specifically shot for that screen. The way that it wraps around you and can potentially show you a full field of view in front of you and to the sides would be quite exciting for a chase or combat sequence for a movie.
- yieldcrv 3y agoI personally don’t understand how to have a phantom like vendetta because of a person’s behavior, following them around with negativity their whole career. Like, they made something awesome and need to monetize it. Focus on the awesome thing. The entity is going to pay those involved and they might sell shares for a higher price, thats how our system works. Suddenly caring only because you dont like 1 of those stakeholders? I don’t understand that. I’m a fan of organizations becoming disconnect and unbeholden to public opinion. Some people try to become judgement proof - uncollectable funds after losing a civil suit - I’m a fan of cancel proof. Companies that dont have to change anything based on a stakeholder’s behavior.
- jstarfish 3y agoCompanies already are cancel-proof, unless they're dumb enough to alienate their biggest customers. Then they cancel themselves. The "toxic personality" stuff really does need to die though. Elon Musk is not invited to my birthday party, but I can respect what his companies have done. These parasocial vendettas are on par with cult disfellowshipping behavior. Unless the product is an asshole too, who gives a shit? Linus, the asshole, brought Linux to fruition. Gentle parenting and oversensitivity only brings us more assholes.
- complianceowl 3y ago
- achow 3y agoTwo unrelated things.. - Ranji (CFO) suddenly quit after a bout of yelling and screaming from CEO James Dolan. - Revenue for the quarter included $4.1 million in event revenue — those two sold out U2 shows, $2.6 million from suite licensing and advertising on the Sphere exosphere. However, it shows that 1 show fetches $2M. 30 shows in 90 days (3 shows in a week) would fetch $60M.Eliminating $98M/Q loss may not be that hard.
- csours 3y ago> Ranji’s exit was “not a result of any disagreement with the company’s independent auditors or any member of management on any matter of accounting principles or practices, financial statement disclosure or internal controls,” "I am not being held hostage"
- miohtama 3y ago> Ranji’s exit was “not a result of any disagreement with the company’s independent auditors or any member of management on any matter of accounting principles or practices, financial statement disclosure or internal controls,” the company said in the filing. Should one be worried if this needs to be highlighted in the statement?
- Waterluvian 3y agoFrom someone who doesn’t have to live there and pay for it, the Sphere felt like something new to the species. Not just as an incredible internal experience, but just this omnipresent goofy thing. Imagine waking up in your city and looking out the window simultaneously with thousands of others to see what mood your local sphere is in about this darn weather. It feels like it would be very connecting. At the same time I appreciate it’s hard to opt out, is rather imposing, and will eventually just show ads.
- ilamont 3y agoThe NYT painted the CEO as being the visionary of the sphere concept, quoting that he was inpsired by a Ray Bradbury short story called The Veldt. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/nyregion/james-dolan-las-vegas-sphere.html?searchResultPosition=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/20/nyregion/james-dolan-las-... Has anyone else done something like this before?
- quickthrowman 3y agoJeffrey Bezos spent over a billion dollars to launch a penis into space
- cab404 3y agodon't sink, fun hackable sphere :(
- electric_dreams 3y ago[dead]