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Auto industry executives admit electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy

• jillesvangurp 3y ago
  EVs are working great. The market keeps on growing by healthy percentages quarter on quarter, year on year. This year is no exception to that. The trouble for some manufacturers is that they aren't able to tap into that growth and are under-performing. GM, Toyota, and Ford talk a lot about EVs but they struggle to build a lot of them. Upstarts like Rivian are actually threatening to displace these companies in terms of volume production of EVs. That's how bad it is. And of course Tesla and a range of Korean, Vietnamese, and Chinese manufacturers are already running circles around the legacy manufacturers with about an order of magnitude difference in volume production. And profits. It's just the legacy manufacturers that are struggling to keep up. Some are further than others. But they all are burdened by supply chains that are mismatched with their EV strategy, legacy business units and product lines that are facing a steep cliff in terms of competitiveness and profitability, and just the reality of having to basically transition away from that on an accelerated timeline. And they are trying to figure out how to manufacture competitive EVs at scale and aren't as far as they'd like to be relative to their competition. The strategy of building transitional vehicles that can be delivered in ICE, hybrid, or bev versions is flopping hard. They are compromise vehicles and just not as good as pure battery electric vehicles. More expensive to make, less efficient with space, weight, etc. Less desirable to own. Less competitive in what is a pretty competitive market. And priced unrealistically high to "protect" the "cheaper" hybrid and ICE range. That was all fine until the macroeconomic circumstances changed. Some countries are already in a recession and others are pondering the semantics of whether they are or aren't in a recession. Interest rates have gone up and the cheap capital needed to bootstrap new EV manufacturing capacity is evaporating rapidly. And on top of that the new entrants in this market have started a price war in China. And of course sales are down in a recession. EVs are affected. Ice vehicles are affected more. And that's what legacy manufacturers depend on for revenue. Despite this, the EV market is still growing. But weaker companies might not make it. And the likes of the companies mentioned in the article are looking weak. It wouldn't be the first time for GM to go bankrupt. And they might need to do that again to cut loose from their legacy business. The next few years are going to be brutal for these companies. The US is lagging other countries a bit but basically, like elsewhere, EVs are going from single digit (most of the US) to double digit percentage (much of northern Europe) market share to eventually a majority market share (Norway). Price points are coming down too. Sub 20k$ vehicles are already on the market. Just not in the US because of import regulations. But the world market is where the money is. It's going to be a massacre there for ICE vehicle manufacturers. All that EV growth is going to come out of their revenue. Unless they figure out how to take a cut of that, they are going to be going out of business.
• LarsAlereon 3y ago
  The thing is, while there's a lot of crap EVs at inflated prices that nobody wants to buy, good EVs are back ordered. Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock.
  • api 3y ago
    So what we are really seeing here is an industry that desperately wants customers not to want certain things, such as affordable ultra low maintenance cheap to operate EVs. But customers want these things and will search them out. Sounds like a recipe for us to lose our auto industry to China. The instant some upstart puts a $20k simple super reliable EV on the market it’s over, and we will deserve it. Of course some subset will keep buying the biggest F-9000 Super Chungus they can find while complaining about the price of gas, so maybe that will keep legacy auto alive.
    • user_named 3y ago
      BYD has a new EV for 70k rmb, around $10k. And another one for around $13k, and so on. So it's not a one off. Cars are getting massively cheaper. I don't see why you'd pay $50k for one.
      • viraptor 3y ago
        BYD is interesting. I've not seen them advertising as much as other brands. Just spotted one being shown in a shopping centre about a year ago, then they start popping up all over the place. I expect to see a huge number of them soon - they're permanently out of stock the whole time as far as I can tell. They provide the non-luxury thing that most people want/can afford and will make a killing while other manufacturers fumble around.
        • theodric 3y ago
          BYD and ORA (Great Wall) are both operating in Ireland. I've sat in them, not driven, but they seem fairly well-put-together on the surface. The little ORA Funky Cat city car is adorable, though not exactly cheap as chips at €32000 for the entry-level model. After Mozilla's damning recent analysis of the major car brands' user privacy [1], however, I'd be very curious to know what data the Chinese EVs are sending back, and to whom. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413
• nusl 3y ago
  Correction; EVs aren’t working the way they want them to but are actually working.
  • dangus 3y ago
    This exactly. They don’t want to say things like “Chinese automakers are eating our lunch” or “we’ll never catch up to Tesla.” The most bullish EV automakers should have seen Tesla’s charging network strategy 10 years ago and executed on something similar. Where are the Ford and GM-branded charging stations?
    • fnordpiglet 3y ago
      The major automakers are half assing their EV strategy to prove a point that their legacy business model is better. The EV execs in the companies are being raked over the coals right now with the ICE execs crowing their career doom. Prices are too high, the charging infrastructure only exists for Tesla, etc etc. These were intentional outcomes orchestrated by the ICE executives to ensure they keep rising for the remaining years of their career. Some probably really believe fire and dinosaur juice Rube Goldberg machines are the future rather than fundamental forces like the electroweak force. Their time is limited, and they will bring down the house with them. As you say, BYD, GW, and MG will eat them for lunch. I’ve been in their cars and they are pretty good, and have a lot of transferred tech from Tesla embedded at near zero R&D costs. With Tesla open sourcing their adapter design and getting federal subsidies to expand charger networks the Chinese makers just need to use the Tesla adapter and their infrastructure challenges are done.
• yobid20 3y ago
  Uh ive driven over 300k miles in evs in the last 10 years. Goodbye gas stations, what are those. Driven many 300+ mile trips, several cross country. Whats not working?? Whenever i see articles like this i just think the writers are ev haters or far right fanatics who have never tried an ev before. Ev's are cheaper than gas cars now, even their msrp and we're not even talking about gas savings yet. Farrrrr cheaper to drive an ev.
  • chung8123 3y ago
    I think they are saying the financials aren't working. The cars are sitting on the lot and not selling.
    • rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
      Cough. Tesla. Cough.
      • toomuchtodo 3y ago
        61% of EVs in the US are Teslas but everyone here hates Elon so head in the sand. Legacy auto EVs are garbage. They ignored Tesla for almost 15 years, and then once Tesla was Goliath, surprise pikachu. The time to build battery factories was when Tesla was building battery factories circa 2014-2015. The fact that Tesla predicted selling 500k EVs a year by 2020 was laughed at, and now they are approaching 2.3M/year total capacity of EVs alone (while still building 40GWh/year of stationary storage). Good luck. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g... (yes, yes, I agree Elon is a monster, but he has also been effective)
        • avgDev 3y ago
          I rented a Model Y for a weekend, now that is garbage. I went to a showroom I looked at Teslas. I could not find a single car with even panels gaps. The wipers don't work. The car doesn't have USS anymore and Tesla vision sucks. I could go on and on and on. I seriously considered one but just too many shortcomings. For the price of Model Y, I can buy a Lexus ES300h(car is QC and build perfection) and drive that car for the next 15 years with oil changes once a year.
• wkat4242 3y ago
  I don't think an EV could work for me personally, as there's almost no public charging stations here. And I can't park at home. So I'd have to go somewhere just for charging and hang around while it's doing it. In fact I don't have a car at all. But if I got one it wouldn't be an EV until nearly every parking space has a charger so I can combine a trip with a charge. But really I'm so happy I don't have a car anymore. There's so many drawbacks. - Huge cost and high depreciation - Maintenance costs and time sink - Tyre swap in winter - insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus - Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign - Finding parking and paying for that - Worry about break-in, damage and theft - Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine) - Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport) I don't really see how all these drawbacks compensate for slightly more easily getting from A to B. Public transport here is amazing and costs 20€ unlimited per month. If I'm in a hurry a taxi will cost a tenner or so. And as I work mostly from home most of trips involve going out and drinking so I wouldn't be able to drive anyway :P And I see more and more of my friends going car free too. I think that's more of a reason for dropping car sales now.
  • theodric 3y ago
    An EV would work great for me, though: -no public transport inside of an hour's walk -sky-high petrol/diesel prices, but I can charge from solar -cheap road tax for EVs -I leave the farm once every 1-2 weeks and generally only go about 15km away on those journeys, so trickle-charging and moderate range would not be an impediment to my mobility Unfortunately a farming income does not translate to a new Tesla, or even a used Kia EV. Guess I should have got one before I burned out and quit tech.
    • randomdata 3y ago
      I'd add to that, at least for my farm, having a convenient source of electricity sitting in the field for when things break (to power tools, etc.) would be fantastic. But you are spot on. The dollars and cents just don't make sense.
• throwaway5959 3y ago
  The amount of anti-EV FUD being pushed right now is insane. There must be some money behind all of these, there’s no way that all these media companies would suddenly just start writing them.
  • lucubratory 3y ago
    I think part of it may be a nationalism thing. People don't like to mention it, but EVs are doing insanely, incredible well in China, and China is increasing the amount of car exports it does as a result by huge amounts (seriously, Chinese car exports five years ago to today is an absolutely incredible accomplishment, check out the graphs sometime). I believe currently in China 30% of all new car sales are EVs, and it's not showing any signs of slowing down. Pretty soon, that should mean petrol cars in China enter a death spiral where it's unprofitable to keep service stations operational and filled with expensive underground fuel storage because demand for fuel is falling so filling up gets harder and prices get higher, then because filling up is harder and prices are higher EVs become even more attractive, rinse and repeat. They are well on track to that, while here in the Anglosphere we're stuck at "only" around 8% of new car sales (still very impressive compared to where it was five years ago). Basically, China is doing a better job than us, therefore the job isn't worth doing anyway and frankly who even cares about competing? I'm going home, and I'm taking the ball, and you can forget about my birthday party too.
    • syntheweave 3y ago
      It's definitely something coming from the top down. I'll watch Peter Zeihan's Youtube because he tends to make arguments that the incumbent elites want to hear, and he did an anti-EV one yesterday in which he argued that the logistics were impossible and EVs could not be green. But the only worthwhile analysis is basically "too bad, disruption is happening". Total car/truck sales went into a steep dive in 2020, made a marginal recovery the next year, and then declined again in 2022. The back-to-office coercion only had partial success - commercial real estate is still sinking in many markets. Meanwhile, e-bike sales got red-hot and everyone suddenly discovered Youtube urbanism. California governor Gavin Newsom made a trip to visit BYD recently, and their buses are being trialed in a few cities. You can even pin a lot of the global instability on energy changes - Russia was a big oil/gas exporter, and they seem to have driven everyone away from them at this point.
• object-a 3y ago
  For most people, I suspect a plugin hybrid will be the right solution/tradeoff until the technology evolves, or charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent. Being able to do most of your local / day to day driving on electric, but still having access to an ICE and gas refueling for longer range trips, seems like a winning combination for now. If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
  • azinman2 3y ago
    I do long commutes and have taken many road trips. With a Tesla it’s very easy. The infrastructure is there now. I’d never go back.
  • zhdc1 3y ago
    > For most people, I suspect a plugin hybrid will be the right solution/tradeoff until the technology evolves, or charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent. Mild hybrid is winning out. > If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips. Completely agree. The best way to solve this issue is to fund or otherwise incentivize alternatives that get cars off of the road entirely. The answer isn't an EV car, although these will help. It's reliable EV light rail/passenger trains.
  • dzader 3y ago
    [dead]
  • instagib 3y ago
    Except when something breaks on the hybrid and you need to find someone to fix it. Few shops work on hybrids.
• avgDev 3y ago
  EVs are expensive imo and risky for someone like me. I can replace a transmission or engine on my ford focus for $500, the car is at 140k miles with basic maintenance. There is no way around battery replacement out of warranty and Tesla has recently raised their battery prices. I happen to keep my cars for 10+ years because its a depreciating asset.
  • fnordpiglet 3y ago
    Batteries tend to be at 80%+ capacity after 10+ years. You still see EV1s on the road with original batteries - and those batteries are ancient tech compared to modern batteries. The lack of moving parts means EVs rarely need service of any kind. There are no fluids, no pneumatic system, no gearing, or other Rube Goldberg machine things in it. It’s just copper and magnets, powered by maxwells equations rather than dinosaur juice and fire. The issue with EVs is charging infrastructure. However that will continue to improve over the next 10 years. As will the economics - there’s no reason for an EV to cost so much. They’re just premium priced because everyone wants a Tesla margin, and they’re used to demanding high prices for their complex mechanical gear and belts beasts because that complexity of machine really costs that much. BYD is proving tho you can deliver a quality $10k EV at much lower costs than we see coming from the major car makers. I’d note your $500 replacement is if you do it yourself with a scrap engine. You can’t take it to the dealer or a shop and get a major change to the car done. So while that may be your economics, it’s not a very widely shared option.
    • anon291 3y ago
      I have read a few of your comments and you make great points, but you might want to stop using pejorative language if you want to be effective in communicating your ideas. 'Rube goldberg machines' can be replaced by parts with lots of wearable components. Dinosaur juice can be replaced with 'gasoline'
      • fch42 3y ago
        maybe it can, but why should? Especially if you like "cars s such", you would strongly have felt the Rube-Goldbergization yourself in the last 25 years or so; while "then" everyone could do certain routine maintenance tasks themselves, "now" more likely than not the electronic controls will lock "your" car down as soon as you get your hand within an inch of the bonnet or so. Your car today is DMCA-protected against you, really... Nevermind "gasoline" - from the US carmaker lobby view, clearly diesel is the dinosaur juice because the European makers promoted it and lied about it (while in Germany petrol is the dinosaur juice as diesel is cheaper with more mileage). Definitely a dinosaur fight if you ask me. The lack of a charger network is lamentable but let's not forget that Benz' first motor car had to be refilled at pharmacies; the fuel station network didn't come to exist overnight either. Transitions that happen with ourselves "feeling overridden" always leave us annoyed and perky. That's no different whether authorities put that shiney new motorway right through your neighbourhood or your local fuel station closes - or your new company car is electric because that's what fleet management went for to tick the green box. We're already in the middle of a big shift here. whether one of us individually embraces our resists it won't stop it from happening. The choice of the dinosaur fate is everyone's own by and large.
• shsbdncudx 3y ago
  Isn’t the elephant in the room that many people don’t want EV’s too work. And many of those people s are auto execs.
  • user_7832 3y ago
    aka "We tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"
• klyrs 3y ago
  Oh well, we tried, better stock up on air while it's still clean! This message brought to you by Exxon air. Now with added detergent, to keep your lungs clean.
• thelastgallon 3y ago
  We know these things: (1) legacy car manufacturers don't know how to make cars. They forgot how to make cars decades ago. All components are manufactured by someone else, they slap their label on it. If you don't know how to make cars, it is nearly impossible to make new kind of cars. (2) If you don't know how to do something, you can spend some money and learn. Legacy car manufacturers had $250 billion profits, but didn't spend any money on building this capability. Meanwhile, Tesla made electric cars, built supercharger network, built gigafactories, expanded these capabilities globally. (3) Dealers hate EVs. Even if legacy manufacturers make EVs, dealers won't sell them. I've been going to dealerships every year for more than five years, dealers treat you like shit if you wanna buy an EV. Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers. (4) Meanwhile, China has figured out how to do EVs at scale, iterating and improving batteries and EVs. Eventually, legacy car manufacturers will go bust (after taking tens of billions in bailouts). We'll import cars from China either directly or indirectly. If there are too many tariffs, China is going to build assembly plants in Mexico or Canada, sell them very competitively in US. VW sells ID.3 for 16K in China, the competition is intense![2] [1]https://www.epi.org/blog/uaw-automakers-negotiations/ https://www.epi.org/blog/uaw-automakers-negotiations/ [2] https://insideevs.com/news/675842/volkswagen-slashes-id3-pricing-china/ https://insideevs.com/news/675842/volkswagen-slashes-id3-pri...
  • toast0 3y ago
    > Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers. A hybrid can have a 2 year/20k factory oil change interval, and really doesn't need much of any other service. An ICE comes in once a year for an oil change and not much else. Maybe spark plugs and timing belt around 100k... if that even goes to the dealer service and not an independent. Sure, more brake work on an ICE. More tire work on an EV (heavier, probably fancy low rolling resistance tires). Maybe some transmission work on an ICE or Hybrid, but they're all 'sealed' units these days that are not supposed to need anything done to them. Other than that, what does an ICE have that an EV doesn't that needs regular maintenance? We're not going from a 1970s carburated car that needs regular tuneups to an EV.
• ge96 3y ago
  Typo title?
• happytiger 3y ago
  There’s one very obvious way to force this transition and that’s to make gas prohibitively expensive.
  • anon291 3y ago
    > There’s one very obvious way to force this transition and that’s to make gas prohibitively expensive. I thought this was a war crime?
    • happytiger 3y ago
      Only when it’s applied to the US Military /s
  • sneak 3y ago
    They could ban cigarettes, too. The issue is that the end users are also the electorate. Forcing everyone to EVs is going to cost more money than cars do now (at least for a time), and the same constituents that vote for legislators are going to feel it. It worked for making dishwashers and washing machines shittier and more power efficient, maybe it will work for cars too. I just don’t think most people in the US are willing to commit to switching, however.
  • mimikatz 3y ago
    Sure you could. it is better to just make a better product people prefer.
  • jjav 3y ago
    > There’s one very obvious way to force this transition and that’s to make gas prohibitively expensive. With the way PG&E keeps raising electricity prices in California, it may be cheaper to go back to gas. Just heard they are pushing yet another huge increase next year. As we approach $1/kWh, charging an EV gets painful.
    • happytiger 3y ago
      I live in California and honestly one of the major reasons I will never go electric in California is PG&E. They will find a way to exploit electric cars to try to solve their self-created problems, and I refuse to pay them for their incompetence especially after so many have died at their hands. Let me be specific. They killed 84 people with their negligence in Paradise alone, but they keep raising rates while never seeming to have the money to fix their problems. Did you know that in just 2021 the PG&E CEO Patricia Poppe was paid $51.2 million — the year that fire killed 84 Californians she made 51.2 million bucks for doing such a good job. They can take their electric future and shove it right where the sun doesn’t shine. They want to make that company the center of California’s future. And they want to raise rates again this year a huge amount on every single customer. After rolling back solar incentives for rooftop. I’m sorry, I hate PG&E. Especially when you have models like SMUD and Roseville power just chugging along delivering power inside the same system at less than half the price. There is no excuse left for PG&E to continue as it has. They need to be broken up and someone like SMUD should take over.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• Animats 3y ago
  The auto industry went on a huge too much car per car kick. I was at a Jeep dealership today. All Jeep Wranglers in stock were 4-door. Prices started at $70K and went to over $100K. And that's before the after-sale charges. These aren't even the electric model. This is 2x-3x over inflation since the $25K Jeep Wrangler of 2007.
• aaronbrethorst 3y ago
  I don't want some ridiculous 3 ton electric truck that needs a 131 kWh battery. I want an adorable, tiny EV Mitsubishi Delica for $13,000 new. https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/en/newsrelease/2023/detail1422.html https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/en/newsrelease/2023/detail... Or this adorable, tiny EV SUV for about the same price: https://www.thedrive.com/news/gms-tiny-electric-pickup-is-an-open-top-truck-meant-for-china https://www.thedrive.com/news/gms-tiny-electric-pickup-is-an...
  • huytersd 3y ago
    Oh I want the ridiculous 3 ton truck but I also don’t want to pay 80-100k for it.
  • topspin 3y ago
    "3 ton electric truck" Elon stated that Cybertruck will weigh about 7000 lbs. That's 3.5 tons. That's the same mass as an F-350 DRW (dual rear wheel) loaded with options. Seriously heavy. I'm not anti heavy vehicles or anything; I have a 3/4 ton truck myself (~5200 lbs.) I just think it's eye opening just how heavy these EVs are.
    • Alifatisk 3y ago
      I read somewhere that todays vehicles and the trend towards heavier vehicles is damaging older parking houses and roads.
      • kdmccormick 3y ago
        Yes. Some of the environmental benefits of EVs will be offset by the increased road maintenance they'll require. Of course, the same could be said about unnecessarily enormous ICE vehicles people drive nowadays too. Vehicle weight really ought to be taxed.
        • user_7832 3y ago
          An interesting thing I've read re: passenger car weights is that even though there are continuous gains in weight reduction (for eg by using composites), the overall weight has stayed the same/gone up for decades due to more safety devices/crash zones etc. It appears to be the hardware equivalent of Wirth's/Bill's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law).
• lgleason 3y ago
  Cross posting this from another thread....I can see both sides to this argument (saying this as someone who owns property in multiple countries and has an electric (Tesla Model 3LR), Plug in Hybrid(Chevy Volt 2nd gen) and ICE cars (A 20 year old Volvo S60 and 22 year old Audi TT)). In the US it mostly is a decent decision to buy electric (and I love my Tesla and Volt I use here) but there are some caveats. 1. The insurance tends to be a bit more expensive. 2. You need to have a place with charging infrastructure (like your own home or an apartment etc. that has free charging). 3. Paid chargers often have similar costs to buying gas for ICE vehicles. 4. Battery degradation is a thing. As someone who lives in the SouthEast and likes to keep cars for 10-15+ years that becomes an issue with cars like the Volt where the only option that makes economic sense when the battery dies is to try to find a refurb from another vehicle if the car is out of warranty. As these refurbed batteries age, or people buy batteries from salvaged volts for home solar batteries that will become an issue (and already is for many 1st gen volts). The Tesla is not as likely to have that issue because a lot more were produced, but if other offerings have after sales support similar to the volt because of lower than expected sales volumes that becomes a perception issue down the road unless you want to just purchase a car, take a big depreciation hit and then trade it in a few years. 5. depreciation see #4. 6. Sales are currently slowing down with inventory piling up even with federal subsidies right now. Imagine how much lower it would be without them. 7. To add more range to a car like the Tesla you need to add more batteries which adds a lot of weight to the car (they have already gone after most the low hanging fruit with motor efficiency and vehicle wind drag). Because of the weight it goes through tires a lot quicker. (30K miles vs 60K average for tires) With the Tesla, it is practical for my needs, but I bought it more so because it is fun to drive, I like the tech etc.. Other countries, outside of Europe, China and other developed nations are a mixed bag. For example in Costa Rica, where I have a property, even with the government tax discounts it doesn't make any sense because electric is really expensive there and it is difficult to get parts is something goes wrong. Also, if you want a car that you are not going to drive a lot of miles in every year there is also the issue of time degrading your battery which is going to be a lot more expensive and difficult to replace there. South Africa has so many current problems with their electric grid that they heavily tax BEV's and plug in hybrid cars instead of offering tax breaks like other countries. Ironically, having solar panels and batteries for a house makes more sense there. ....and guess which car brand is has one of the higher theft rates because of parts and resale around the world....Toyota, who has been very slow to go BEV. The formula for Toyota is to wait until technologies are perfected and to then build reliable products that will last for years which the majority of buyers seem to prefer worldwide. Because of the slow market adoption it will not surprise me if the legislation around the world to ban ICE sales ends up being relaxed before it takes effect and the transition happens much more slowly.
• jaimex2 3y ago
  Have any of these companies tried innovating instead of just copying Tesla?
• huytersd 3y ago
  No one wants to buy the 80-100k stuff they want you to buy. You need to have reasonable EVs priced in the 20-40k range. People keep buying up all the bolts and for some reason Chevy won’t make enough of them. The f-150 lightning was back ordered before they raised the prices 1.5 years ago from a relatively affordable 42k to whatever it is now (closer to 60k for the base model I think).
  • oaiey 3y ago
    Yes, this is exactly the point. 10 years ago I bought a car for 18k. It served me well and while not the most comfortable thing, there is no equivalent in size (5 seats + lots of luggage space) in the EV market for a similar price. Salary averages did not go up by 100% to compare to current 40k-60k prices on offered EV products. They need to build smaller, less fancy cars with prices for normal people.
    • acdha 3y ago
      The sub-$30k EVs are very popular here but they’re also reportedly quite hard to buy. My understanding is that we’re basically seeing the hangover of the auto industry mistiming the pandemic – when they misjudged the market & created a chip shortage, they pushed everything into the highest margin SUVs and trucks where their profit rate is twice as high – and the dealers resenting EVs both for personal political reasons and the way an EV locks in lower profits for their service departments.
  • mdorazio 3y ago
    Chevy won’t make enough of them because they don’t make any money on them. In fact, they were losing thousands of dollars on every Bolt sold for years. What customers want is a car that’s sold for below cost, which is of course completely unsustainable.
    • huytersd 3y ago
      Maybe they should refine their manufacturing on the segment that customers actually want so they can provide the vehicle at a reasonable margin.
• shmerl 3y ago
  The article doesn't explain the reason for it though.
• Animats 3y ago
  The solid state battery era may help. If charging times come down to ten minutes or less, the land use for charging infrastructure changes. Charging stations start to look like gas stations instead of parking lots. No need to find something for the customers to do while charging; a convenience store and restrooms is enough. This will hasten adoption. We'll see gas stations taking out their pumps and tanks to put in chargers and transformers. 500KW chargers already exist.[1] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23922649/gravity-dc-fast-charger-new-york-500kw https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23922649/gravity-dc-fast...
• ThinkBeat 3y ago
  As far as sales in the US go, it will skyrocket with the $7000 tax credit goes into effect? Well the tax credit is available already. That makes the slump harder to understand. https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...
  • friend_and_foe 3y ago
    It's pretty easy to understand at least one big facet of it. If you don't own a house you're charging your car for a few hours a week. You have to go to a charging station and sit there in your car. Most people live in apartments. Unless you can park your car in a garage to charge it overnight it's a significant added hassle.
    • ThinkBeat 3y ago
      In Norway many apartment complexes have parkingspots that offer charging station, or that offers you the ability to have one installed. (Which is expensive, but you get the optimal charger for your car) One problem has been that there is not enough power coming via the regular infrastructure but believe that has been mostly solved now. Then there are a lot of people who do not have permanent parking space. Most commercial parking houses offer some spots with charging but the need may outstrip the availability. If you are left to find a parking spot outside somewhere you are out of luck, unless there is a charging station close to work, (and you drive to work)
    • vel0city 3y ago
      Most Americans do not live in apartments. Most Americans live in single-family homes, or 1-4 unit townhomes which can often have garages as well.
• dboreham 3y ago
  s/admin/admit/
• avalys 3y ago
  I'm, like, the world's biggest car enthusiast and I love EVs. For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. They're smooth, quiet, and powerful and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it! An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage. It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
  • k8sToGo 3y ago
    For me the biggest upside is not having to do oil changes or worry about if the engine is warm or not before reving. Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
    • gambiting 3y ago
      >>Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires. Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
      • KingMob 3y ago
        It's not just easier acceleration, EVs are also heavier. Between those two factors, it adds up to something like only 70-80% of the normal lifetime of standard ICE tires.
• jonplackett 3y ago
  *admit
• assimpleaspossi 3y ago
  The companies with the worst EV cars and the bottom of the list in EV sales are complaining about it "not working" but there is a difference between "waning sales", as Elon Musk put it, and "not working". This sounds more like a defeated competitor than a leader.
• renegat0x0 3y ago
  - Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only - Electric cars are privacy nightmare - Electric cars can be hacked (Hyunday and Kia could be stolen using USB cable). It is more vulnerable - There is still a ton of energy required to create a electric vehicle, and uses slave labour - EV is not plan to last a decade. Electronic parts do not last that long. You can easily find a decade old Mercedes - No real plan for battery disposal - Does not work well in winter - You cannot park it everywhere, as malls and garages will not allow it There are many downsides of having EV
  • k8sToGo 3y ago
    Do you even own an EV? Because I do. Some of your points above are not even EV specific and others have solutions.
    • renegat0x0 3y ago
      solutions like plans, that after 20 years something will be solved? good luck trusting politicians.
      • k8sToGo 3y ago
        No. They are already reality. Charging stations for example, can be ordered automatically to reduce charging output by electric company.
  • audunw 3y ago
    > Electric grid is not ready for a huge amount of electric cars. Cars will be for the wealthy only The grid isn't ready for anything we're doing the next 20 years. That goes without saying: the grid was built for the needs of the present, not for the needs several decades ahead. The grid will be upgraded to handle it, just like the grid has been upgraded many times in the past to deal with increased demand. The region around Oslo has hundreds of thousands of EVs without any upgrades to the grid. The Norwegian government has studied the issue and found that no grid upgrades are even needed if most cars charge at night. There's lots of spare capacity at night. I have my car charging set up to be controlled by the electric company based on price right now. It's super easy to set up. > Electric cars are privacy nightmare False. The drive train has absolutely nothing to do with privacy. SOME modern cars are a privacy nightmare. There are plenty of "smart" ICE vehicles too. > Electric cars can be hacked (Hyunday and Kia could be stolen using USB cable). It is more vulnerable False. There's no difference between EV and modern ICE here. Both are started electronically these days, and that can make them less vulnerable than older cars since you can have cryptographic verification of your key. > There is still a ton of energy required to create a electric vehicle True, but over the whole lifetime the energy required is less. When the battery is recycled and a second EV created from the materials, the energy needed is FAR less. > and uses slave labour I'd say false. Anything we manufacture has a risk that the materials were unethically mined. Since EV car makers care about their image, they tend to audit their supply chain to reduce the chance of unethical mining. Do you think the company refining your gasoline care if the cobalt used in refining gasoline comes from slave labor? What about the cobalt going into your metal alloys? Nobody cares, because nobody is trying to use "cobalt slave labour" to attack those industries. But fossil fuel lobbies are constantly pushing this as an argument against EVs. > EV is not plan to last a decade. Electronic parts do not last that long. You can easily find a decade old Mercedes False. We have plenty of decade old EVs here in Norway. The Nissan Leaf came out in 2011 and there's plenty of them here. Yes, quite few of them have degraded too much, and needs a new battery. But that's because they started out with a tiny battery (gets cycled more often), had an old battery chemistry and bad BMS with no cooling. Even if the battery must be replaced, the rest of the car is totally fine. An old EV with a new battery is MUCH more reliable than an old ICE car. Since newer batteries are better, you can also end up with a car that's better - with longer range - than when it was new. My old Kia Soul EV is 7 years old and has zero issues, and not much degradation. My neighbors decade old ICE car just broke down, and they're borrowing our old EV right now. (We have a second newer one as well) Solid state electronic parts can last multiple decades. Electric motors can essentially last forever (there are EVs from the early 1900s still working with no motor refurbishment). Mechanical parts generally do not last long without having to be refurbished/replaced. It's an inherent problem when you have moving parts rubbing against each other. > No real plan for battery disposal Completely false. EU has battery recycling regulations, and EV battery recycling is already up and running at an industrial scale. > Does not work well in winter False. I drive my EV to my moms cabin in deep snow every winter. Modern EVs are MUCH better than ICE cars in winter. Yes, the range is shorter. But try driving a modern AWD EV in snow. The traction is insanely good. That's what being able to adjust the torque precisely 100s of times a second gets you. Yes, the range of my older 7yo old EV is rather short in winter. But nobody makes EVs with such a small battery anymore. And it's still much better than an ICE for short trips around town and commutes to work. > You cannot park it everywhere, as malls and garages will not allow it Hilarious. EVs catch fire far less often than ICE cars. The statistics are crystal clear on this. An airport car garage burned down in Norway. Started by a spontaneous fire in an ICE car. It was also full of EVs, and despite being surrounded by a firey hellscape, NOT A SINGLE EV BATTERY PACK CAUGHT FIRE. Can you imagine if every car was EV? If there's no gasoline to fuel the fire, it might not have spread as fast, and it might be easier to extinguish the fire before the whole building burned down. > There are many downsides of having EV There are a few. But there are way more downsides with ICE. Most of all: you are literally poisoning yourself and your neighbors by driving one. The air quality around Oslo has noticeably improved the last few years.
• was_a_dev 3y ago
  What is the second-hand EV market going to look like? What does it currently look like? My worry is buying an EV with a used battery - as the battery feels like the inevitable failure point
  • LeonM 3y ago
    > What is the second-hand EV market going to look like? What does it currently look like? Pretty much the same as ICE cars, at least where I live. > My worry is buying an EV with a used battery - as the battery feels like the inevitable failure point They are, but so are combustion engines (not to mention gearboxes!). A new engine for example would cost more than most second-hand cars are worth. The solution to a broken battery would be the same as with a broken engine: either repair it, or replace it with a second hand one. Battery packs can be repaired, though it does require special tools and (safety) skills, just like with combustion engines.
• AYBABTME 3y ago
  Tesla may be facing headwinds, but reality is these legacy car maker's products are just not competitive with Tesla. Many are going to die in the transition, as they can't make a great all integrated product. They just don't know how, and with UAW strikes, it's not like they're going to learn how to and gain better economics in the future either. These companies are walking dead. And like IBM, they probably can be walking dead for a good while.
  • nickpeterson 3y ago
    I agree somewhat, but there are a lot of factors. They have good distribution, brand recognition, banking/finance, etc. The problem almost all car companies have is they’re not really software development companies, and they can’t stomach outsourcing it until they fail for awhile and burn a bunch of time and money. If I was a smaller car brand I’d be looking to cut a deal with Apple (software, battery tech, touchscreens, services).
  • tester756 3y ago
    What makes you think so?
• LeonM 3y ago
  Part of this could be explained by the low/favorable price of the Yen at the moment. Toyota cars are currently rather cheap to buy in Europe and USA. But Toyota still primarily offers ICE and hybrids, they are late to the BEV game. Where I live, a Tesla Model 3 (€43k, with incentives) is still about 10k more expensive as a comparable Toyota Corolla hybrid (€33k). That all said, in my country Teslas are still very popular, the model 3 has outsold every other car (ICE or EV) for the past few years, only to be overtaken by the model Y.
• janosdebugs 3y ago
  Where I live (AT), half of the automakers don't seem to have an EV option at all and those that do have them only in the mid to expensive ranges (40k and up) with a very narrow selection (1-2 models). Add to that that cars seem to have had quite the price hike in the last 10 years (e.g. Suzuki Jimny went from 17k to almost 25k)... Not exactly surprising that they don't sell.
• Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  I have an twenty year old small pickup that is my primary driver. I don't call it my daily driver since I work from home but I do have a side hustle that involves getting full sheets of plywood and other supplies a couple times a month, plus it's great for yard stuff and those miscellaneous tasks that randomly popup. But I hate using it for short trips around town. It works completely fine for grocery store trips, going to the park, and stuff like that, but it's really overkill. I'd love to be able to find a used Leaf with maybe 50-60 miles of range but the prices are still too high for what I would use it for. I've noticed that used EVs don't change much in price even if the battery is already half dead and on the way downwards. Makes me wonder if people are being sold used EVs without fully understanding what battery degradation means.
• theonlybutlet 3y ago
  I would love an electric car (with decent range), I just can't justify those prices to myself.
• hospitalJail 3y ago
  I also admit, I don't want a 35k, 5 seater. Need a better value proposition.
• vertnerd 3y ago
  I loved my 2020 Nissan Leaf S+ so much I bought a second one. Now they're going to stop making them, so they can focus on the much larger and more expensive Nissan Ariya. It seems like many other companies are trying to SUV-ize their EV lineup to flush more cash from customers, but there are only so many people who are willing to pay for those monstrosities. People want an affordable, utilitarian car that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and, aside from initial promises, automakers have neglected the market.
  • infecto 3y ago
    Perhaps you think the market is bigger than it really is? Hard to say how to solve it but I think small vehicles do not sell well.
  • heresie-dabord 3y ago
    Cheers, the Nissan Leaf is a good car. But not an affordable car. The EV market in North America has not seen a commonly affordable EV. And the economy is causing people to look carefully at the equation of owning any vehicle. > automakers have neglected the market. The US ICE corporations have not neglected their market. They have steered the EV market toward the wall. Now the executives claim in bad faith that "something isn't working". They understand the economics of their industry very well. The only exception to the market that the US ICE corporations have created is Tesla, an undeniable success story. The EV market in the US is estimated to be less than 10% in 2023.[1] If a larger percentage of N.A. consumers want an affordable EV for commuting, they won't find one. Yet. They will however find many truck-like SUVs and asphalt warships such as the Ford F150, the GM Silverado, and the Stellantis Dodge RAM. Perhaps the US ICE corporations simply accepted that China and Telsa will dominate the mid-to-low cost segment of the EV market. We will see how N.A. buyers who want an affordable zero-emission EV for commuting will react to the Fiat 500e with a 42 kWh battery (coming to the US in 2024). [2] Cue the influencers who will say that you will be doomed when (not if) you collide with an asphalt warship. [1] _ https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive-summary https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/executive... [2] _ https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/09/2023-fiat-500e-first-drive-review/ https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/09/2023-fiat-500e-first-dri...
  • 3y ago
• Tade0 3y ago
  Meanwhile there's a brutal price war going on in China, with EVs going down in price below ICE propositions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/08/08/chinese-evs-are-now-cheaper-than-gasoline-cars/d763cefa-3639-11ee-ac4e-e707870e43db_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/08/08/ch... Non-Chinese automakers better prepare themselves, because whoever comes out on top from that struggle will take over the market just like it happened with solar panels.
  • JKCalhoun 3y ago
    Because of their relative simplicity, I always assumed electric vehicles would be much cheaper than internal combustion engine cars — excepting the battery. (Although even there you would think that without oil changes and using presumably less expensive electricity rather than gasoline would make the EV cheaper to own over all.) I suppose EV-as-luxury-vehicle is maybe how an industry kicks off before the market begins to mature and prices come down. I look forward to the phase of the market when EVs become affordable for everyone.
    • toddmorey 3y ago
      They are simple powertrains fueled by complex and heavy battery chemistry. I think affordable for everyone will happen with the next generation of solid state batteries.
      • stavros 3y ago
        What's complex about it? Isn't it 18650 cells welded together?
        • user_7832 3y ago
          I'd also love to hear what's the complexity about. To me the high costs are a side effect of EVs still being seen as luxury vehicles, and not specifically because EV tech is inherently costly.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• hughw 3y ago
  Maybe Toyota's bet on hydrogen will pay off after all.
• xkgt 3y ago
  To what extent is this article impartial? Besides the inclusion of carefully selected quotes from executives, the remaining references predominantly originate from articles published on the same website and authored by a specific subset of writers. Is this viewpoint commonly shared within the industry?
• emilecantin 3y ago
  I bought a car recently (June), and ended up not getting an electric car. Why? My criteria are pretty simple: - Must seat 6 (I have 4 kids, I'm not going to start doing 2 trips) - Must be below 100k CAD (y'know, budget. I'm still way stretching at this price point.) I could not find a single EV that fit these 2 criteria. Tesla had a 7-seater option on the Y, which I did actually order, but then they canceled my order as they stopped selling the 7-seater in Canada. In the end, I had to fall back to the closest thing, a PHEV. Even there, the choices are pretty much only the Mitshubishi Outlander or the Chrysler Pacifica, and I'm not a SUV guy so I got the Pacifica. Manufacturers need to stop competing on the same exact car (boring 5-seater mini-SUVs) and start offering some variety, maybe they'll see more sales.
  • gruez 3y ago
    >Manufacturers need to stop competing on the same exact car (boring 5-seater mini-SUVs) and start offering some variety, maybe they'll see more sales. Okay but you have to admit that having 4 kids is pretty atypical. Why would it make more sense for car companies to target more niche segments for electric vehicles? Are electric drivetrains somehow more suited for 7 seater cars?
    • Kon-Peki 3y ago
      > Why would it make more sense for car companies to target more niche segments for electric vehicles? This thread is about failed EV plans, so I guess with hindsight we should be saying that targeting the mainstream segments didn't make much sense. But I guess if you want some reasons - niche segments are poorly served. A "pretty good" EV should stand out; in a highly competitive market a "pretty good" EV is one of the worst choices available. Niche segments are not high volume. You don't need a battery gigafactory to meet demand. You won't have multi-year waitlists and huge dealer markups that turn definite buyers into angry non-customers.
    • emilecantin 3y ago
      Well, around 1/6th of families in Canada have 3 or more children[1]; that's not the majority but it's not "atypical" either. Add to that the number of stepfamilies, which can get pretty big, and I think you're looking at a sizable segment. 3-child families might fit in a sedan or crossover, but they'll be much more comfortable in a minivan or similar, and most of them actually do shop for bigger, 3-row vehicles. I think it would make much more sense for a manufacturer to try and get a good percentage of that niche rather than compete and get a sliver of the mainstream. That's the advice we generally tell new freelancers (find a niche) and it also applies here. I don't think there's any particular considerations around electric drivetrains and 7-seaters that would change suitability, except 2 things: - bigger vehicles do consume more energy, but you have a lot more room for batteries. - Minivan buyers aren't particularly concerned about performance; you don't have to make the fastest thing out there and it'll still sell. (up to a point, though: I rejected the Sienna after a test drive because it was just so sluggish and noisy.) [1]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810012401 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=981001...
• iandanforth 3y ago
  I love my plug-in hybrid. (Honda Clarity) 90% of the time I use it on electric and I never have range anxiety. When we wanted to do a cross country road trip it worked and now that we are settled I don't buy gas and don't feel bad about driving. I've owned both a Tesla and a Nissan Leaf and I probably wouldn't buy another pure EV unless it was as a second car. Note: This sweet spot seems to have disappeared from the market as I don't believe any plug-in hybrids available in the US today match the EV range of the Clarity.
  • kamranjon 3y ago
    This is the realistic future I think. I’ve had a Ford Escape PHEV for over a year now and like you I basically am always on electric except for long trips. When I’m just driving on gas I get 40mpg. Day to day, charging at home, I average about 1500 miles between tank fills. It’s not as fun as driving a full electric and there is really nothing special about the car itself, it’s just incredibly practical.
• 1970-01-01 3y ago
  Half-assed business plans often fail. Supercharger stations are critical to mass EV adoption. Why an executive would think otherwise I just can't understand.
• throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  Reasons why I can't buy an EV: - I need a truck with large towing capacity and no EV but a Semi currently comes close. Reasons why I don't want to buy an EV: - I live in an apartment with street parking. The nearest public chargers are 15 minutes away. Charging would be a time consuming hassle. - Any EV truck is at least 5x more expensive than the average used truck. - I don't want to have to plan out every single trip around where the next charger is. I'd like to go hiking in the Catskills and not have to create an Excel spreadsheet to figure out where I'll need to stop for power and how long. - Unless you can use a Tesla charger, public chargers suck. They often are broken, do not provide nearly enough power, have difficult payment systems, etc. Many EV drivers just don't get how shitty non-Tesla chargers are. - I like driving standard transmission. I could technically hire someone to retrofit an EV with a manual trans. I can't imagine how expensive that would be. Reasons why I wish I could buy an EV: - Larger trucks are insanely fuel inefficient. I want to pay less for fuel and have longer range. - ICE maintenance is a huge pain. I don't want to deal with all the broken stuff and constantly going in for minor to major repairs and maintenance. - I'd like to help people with asthma and the environment.
  • organsnyder 3y ago
    > - I live in an apartment with street parking. The nearest public chargers are 15 minutes away. Charging would be a time consuming hassle. This one is getting better as fast-charging becomes more prevalent. You don't (I assume) live next to a gas station either, but you're accustomed to stopping for gas every few weeks. Of course, filling up a gas tank takes five minutes instead of twenty, but we're getting close to parity.
  • gilbetron 3y ago
    > I like driving standard transmission. I could technically hire someone to retrofit an EV with a manual trans. I can't imagine how expensive that would be. Most EVs don't have a transmission, or, really, just have a single speed transmission, so a "manual trans" on an EV would just be cosplaying ;)
    • smileysteve 3y ago
• chiph 3y ago
  I plan on owning an EV one day. But right now, they're not building the car I (and apparently a lot of other people) want at a price they're willing to pay. I'm not interested in owning a science experiment. I want something that has real buttons so I can use my muscle memory to push them without taking my eyes off the road. I don't want something that beeps at me all the damned time (looking at you, Toyota/Lexus/Subaru). I want something with decent range (300 miles/500km) - I don't mind stopping at the 4-5 hour mark to recharge - I need to recharge too at that point. I don't want an all-glass roof - I live in the South and it gets hot here. I want comfortable seats. After trade-in and cash-down, I don't want a payment much over $600. I don't mind spending $1200 to install a charger at home - it's a one-time purchase that I will be able to use over several vehicles and adds value to the house. I'm sure I sound like a cranky old man (because I am). But there's a reason why car design has converged over the last century to the control layout we have today. It's because it works. https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/driving-a-model-t-forces-you-to-rewire-your-car-brain/ https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/driving-a-model-t...
  • brandonagr2 3y ago
    I have a Tesla, I use the dedicated buttons on the steering wheel without taking my eyes off the road to operate radio and cruise, what else are you constantly changing that would require more buttons?
    • the_svd_doctor 3y ago
      Climate control is an important one imho
    • zzleeper 3y ago
      I heard a common complaint was wipers
      • arethuza 3y ago
        So how do you turn on and adjust wipers in a Tesla?
      • 3y ago
• risfriend 3y ago
  EV cars need replaceable batteries so that they can be charged at home. The batteries also need to become less heavier so people can carry it to their home to plug them in. There should also be some designated spare battery storage in car so that extra batteries can be kept. Without this, EVs would remain a privilege for a select few who can afford the private infra. Charging stations can only go so far. You can carry spare liquid gas in extreme circumstances, similar capabilities are needed here, everyone wants to be prepared for worst case.
  • otabdeveloper4 3y ago
    Do you realize how heavy batteries are? Also, detachable batteries are a huge safety risk. (One bad contact and you could literally die.) For this reason they don't even put detachable batteries into electric scooters and bikes anymore.
  • bonton89 3y ago
    I once saw a project where a guy had taken an old 1980s chevy cavalier, chopped off and capped everything past the engine firewall and turned it into a trailer that he attached to his EV and used as a generator for long trips. This was janky and amusing but I feel like this concept is a great one for solving the range problem. Just rent a generator trailer for long trips, or you could buy one if you used it semi-often.
  • rangestransform 3y ago
    this is a bad idea - the battery won't be able to be a stressed member of the chassis, increasing weight and decreasing range for the same size of pack - designing high voltage contactors and mechanical fasteners to cycle safely however many hundreds of times is difficult
• paulnpace 3y ago
  Seems like a better solution is automated battery-swap stations, making the EV functionally the same as gasoline, not to mention batteries ultimately last longer as they can always get perfect recharge.
• epolanski 3y ago
  I have been defending Toyota's strategy for years and saying that there was no such demand for EV to prompt such a rush before infrastructure didn't catch up and technology cost didn't become more affordable. I feel a bit vindicated.
  • nologic01 3y ago
    I don't know why you are being downvoted. Its a reasonable view. A hybrid approach is not the simplest (one must develop and support two infrastructures and that adds overhead at all levels). But if we take a step back and ask what is the surest way to get to a desired end state it may well be wisest path.
  • DangitBobby 3y ago
    If someone made an affordable EV people would buy them. Still waiting for the obvious cost savings to materialize.
• 11thEarlOfMar 3y ago
  Information permeation through our bubbles is really phased. Consider the elapsed time between 'the first to know' and 'the last to know' and how that has attenuated. Comments on this thread are a nice illustration of where we are. It's interesting that there is no mention in the article about most auto makers adopting the Tesla charging standard and ceding profit on charging to Tesla. That pattern will continue as Tesla's all-out technology and investment sprint continues to widen the gap. In my view, by the time the legacy auto makers get a profitable, competitively priced BEV into the showrooms, Tesla (and the Chinese companies) will have their low-cost factory running in Mexico, lowering the bar on them again. And then Full Self Driving will go wide as the final nail in the coffin. I'm not a short-seller because people like short sellers about the same as undertakers, but if I were, I'd be betting that the legacy autos are declaring bankruptcy again in less than 5 years.
• nologic01 3y ago
  I am not intimate with the engineering tradeoffs involved but for a long time I have thought that some sort of hybrid car transition period (a couple of decades or so) would be a less bumpy ride. It feels that aiming for an all or nothing 0% -> 100% electrification of the planet's automobile infrastructure needlessly raises the bar (both on what cars should be able to deliver and what the grid / infrastructure should be able to sustain). The sustainability transition is really a long-term marathon, not a fireworks display. It must carry society along at a steady clip, be affordable and usable etc.
  • ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    This is exactly what has happened/is happening, so you should be questioning whatever information sources have led you to believe that it isn't. It's probably more telling that the anti-EV propaganda needs to give a false impression of what's going on in order to make it seems unreasonable in order to win their argument. That's generally a bad sign. To give just one of many examples, of policies that do exactly as you ask, the CARB ZEV mandates: a) include credits for hybrids b) ramp up over time c) was introduced in 1990 d) the most recent update in 2020 set a target for 100% zero emission sales in 2035 for small vehicles and 2045 for "medium and heavy-duty trucks and buses" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Air_Resources_Board#Zero-Emission_Vehicle_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Air_Resources_Board...
• rickydroll 3y ago
  The problems with large car company EVs is self-inflicted. Instead of taking a chance and looking at a whole new design for automobiles, they just replicated the old SUV/pickup truck product line and through a battery into it. Granted, this makes the change familiar and reversible for most users. This is a good thing. As everyone has been complaining here, the downside is the price. They should have taken a stab at seeing what kind of a car you could build for a retail price of $15,000-$20,000. I believe Citroen did something like this as everyone has been complaining here, my question to folks is what car features are essential for you and which are disposable? For me, heating, air conditioning, hundred and 50 mile range with aggressive driving, good all-around visibility, plenty of room for 6 foot tall person but can adjust for a 5 foot person. Antilock brakes. Would be nice is anticollision front radar, blind spot detection, radar adaptive cruise control. Heated steering wheel and heated seats. Dashboard display and entertainment center could be two off-the-shelf tablets. That's my wish list. What would be the right thing for you?
  • thorncorona 3y ago
    > For me, heating, air conditioning, hundred and 50 mile range with aggressive driving, good all-around visibility, plenty of room for 6 foot tall person but can adjust for a 5 foot person. Antilock brakes. Would be nice is anticollision front radar, blind spot detection, radar adaptive cruise control. Heated steering wheel and heated seats. Dashboard display and entertainment center could be two off-the-shelf tablets. This is basically a tesla, except with 250 mile range, and 2x as expensive. And they replaced everything that requires radar/uss with unreliable cameras.
  • fragmede 3y ago
    > Dashboard display and entertainment center could be two off-the-shelf tablets. fwiw Tesla had a helluva time sourcing the screens for their cars back in like 2019. Something off the shelf isn't liable to cut it, though the market may have changed by now. https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...
• NoGravitas 3y ago
  Listening to US automakers talking about not being able to sell electric vehicles all sounds like "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!". Seriously; it's clear not enough people want to buy the only thing they're selling (expensive electric SUVs and big trucks), but they're unwilling to try selling anything else.
  • kjkjadksj 3y ago
    They have electric subcompacts too and those also aren’t moving in volume
• zqfm 3y ago
  I, like many others here, would love to have an EV. But in a world where people are being paid barely enough to eat, it's no wonder no one can afford premium EV prices. Make an affordable EV and people will buy it, that doesn't seem like a revolutionary idea to me.
  • momirlan 3y ago
    they're still a fire hazard and expensive to insure for that.
• novia 3y ago
  > Dealers have been warning of slowing EV demand for months In 2018, I went to several car dealerships in North Carolina with the intent to buy an electric car. Not one carried them. The salespeople claimed, "there's no demand," but there was one person right in front of them demanding an electric car. If I were the executives at the car companies, I wouldn't trust what the dealers were telling me.
• throw8383833jj 3y ago
  this is really sad. as I will ONLY be buying an EV in future (it's EV or nothing). i certainly don't want another ICE, that's for sure. I guess i'm in a tiny minority, yet again.
• lamontcg 3y ago
  I wonder how much of this is "people don't want EVs" vs. "the consumer is getting strapped, and people don't want the overpriced junk we're producing"?
• MR4D 3y ago
  The problem as I see it is that automakers got caught up in the whole self-driving thing at the same time as electric car demand grew. So today, there are a ton of overpriced cars and now that the wealthy people have bought them, demand is falling off a cliff. /my $0.00002
• onewheeltom 3y ago
  We have a plug in hybrid with a 30 mile electric range and a charger at home. We rarely put gas in the car except for trips. A 300 mile range EV is unnecessary for most everyday use. 100 miles is more like it. Leave out 2/3 of the batteries and give us a better price.