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Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off
- atleastoptimal 3y agoThat seems like a hack
- manxman 3y agoAn efficient hack. Cheaper than calling in the union busters!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- onion2k 3y agoThe hack is knowing that this will lead many other Bandcamp staff who want a union to look for new jobs. Bandcamp bust their union and do a cheap layoff at the same time.
- rob74 3y agoSeeing that half of the employees were already laid off, I assume most of the others will see the writing on the wall and start looking for new jobs no matter if they want a union or not...
- danjc 3y agoUnions have existed by various names for all of time but I have a hard time sympathizing except in the case of blue collar/low income workers.
- leipie 3y agoAny group of workers can be exploited by their employers. The gaming industry has shown time and time again it is a prime example of this.
- baggy_trough 3y agoHow do you define exploitation?
- onethought 3y agoUnless you have shares - you are exploited for your surplus value. This is true for any and all wage based labour.
- zirgs 3y agoNot really - if you are salaried worker - you get paid even if the project that you are working on fails. You trade potential profit for stability. But if you are a founder/investor who works on your own stuff then you will lose your own money if the project fails.
- mordae 3y agoWe are all risking our time on Earth, betting what we do with it will be a success that will help our descendants and other fellow humans. Somebody wasting it by fucking up the project by mismanagement or misappropriation is a loss for us all. Individualism sure is cancer.
- onethought 3y agoNo, if you don’t generate surplus value. You get fired. One project sure, maybe your ROI window for your employer is higher than that. But it still holds true.
- drekipus 3y agoWhen in the world will this meme end. If I am paid to dig holes, then a hole is not worth anything to me except for what someone will pay for it. I'm not going to stay at home and dig all these holes in my back yard and glimmer with glee at all this surplus value that I've kept to myself. Code is the exact same. Me writing a python module to process a CSV file is not at all valuable to me, but the wage I'm paid for making it, is. It's not exploitation. It's a very easy trade.
- rendall 3y agoThis is how unions weaken. Divide first, by implying that some class of workers are not worthy of collective bargaining agreements. Then conquer, because unions aren't powerful.
- braza 3y agoAgree mostly with that, but the issue is that in certain occupations where you have a high transitivity of professionals, monopoly of work, high income, and some sort of power law in terms of outcomes, and asymmetric info that can be on the weak side of the negotiation that can generate high payouts an union does not help so much. For instance, blue-collar professions do not have much of these, so being out of any agreement would be a huge disadvantage for the worker; for technology in general (talking here about software engineers specifically, I do not know other workers in tech) an union would be beneficial but not critical since this professional has some of the attributes described above.
- rendall 3y ago> high transitivity of professionals, monopoly of work, high income, and some sort of power law in terms of outcomes, and asymmetric info that can be on the weak side of the negotiation that can generate high payouts I don't know that I really understand what you mean. Not sure why those, even were they true, would mean people should get fired if they try to unionize. Maintaining high income and "monopoly of work" is one of the points of unions.
- SeanLuke 3y ago> Then conquer, because unions aren't powerful. Come to Italy some time.
- rendall 3y agoI live in Finland! Unions are so powerful here they are practically a branch of government.
- jszymborski 3y agoAnyone willing to speculate if there is any legal recourse?
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoProbably complain to the NLRB I assume.
- nielsbot 3y agoI think the NLRB recently changed their rules and any interference or law breaking automatically confirms the union. The problem then becomes bargaining—companies (see Starbucks) can drag out negotiations indefinitely. This part of labor law probably can’t be changed without congress unfortunately. The PRO Act included rules which forced companies to negotiate within a certain time window but it didn’t pass.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- timeon 3y agoIn the Wild West?
- crabmusket 3y agoWell, it was nice while it lasted.
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago[dupe] Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37935333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37935333
- Tao3300 3y agoNo. It's a different article.
- thrillgore 3y agoWell that's one negotiation tactic. Bandcamp is heading for the dead pool, and it fucking sucks because it's my go to online music store. God damnit Epic.
- politelemon 3y agoAnd Bandcamp CEO Ethan Diamond, who agreed to the original acquisition. Looking back 2 years ago he was making the usual promises that nothing would happen to it, after all his parachute depended on saying so.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- PlunderBunny 3y agoThey always say nothing will change. It's the surest indication that there will be changes.
- Animats 3y agoIt's illegal.See "Discriminating against employees because of their union activities or sympathies" [1] Enforcement is weak, but it's illegal. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/discriminating-against-employees-because-of-their-union https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/di...
- 0xpgm 3y agoIf I understand the statement below right, 27 of the union members received offers > “Of those laid off, 40 were in the union bargaining unit out of a total 67 members. None of the eight (8) democratically elected bargaining team members received a job offer.”
- extraduder_ire 3y agoSeeing the headline, and remembering that 50% of employees were laid off, my first thought was: "what're the odds?" I assume I'd have to use NCR or something to calculate that. I know the upper (rarest) bound is 1/2^40, but it's likely much more likely, and not random.
- thaumasiotes 3y agoYou want the binomial distribution. ( https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/binom-dist-function-c5ae37b6-f39c-4be2-94c2-509a1480770c https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/binom-dist-functi... , https://help.libreoffice.org/6.2/en-US/text/scalc/01/04060181.html https://help.libreoffice.org/6.2/en-US/text/scalc/01/0406018... if you want to use Excel; https://help.libreoffice.org/6.2/en-US/text/scalc/01/04060181.html https://help.libreoffice.org/6.2/en-US/text/scalc/01/0406018... ("B") for LibreOffice Calc.) 1/2^40 doesn't come into it. There are 67 relevant employees. Given that 50% of all employees were laid off, what were the odds of at least 40 employees out of 67 randomly-selected employees getting laid off? =B(67;0.5;40;67) > 0.07103569 [This is the LibreOffice formula: "in 67 trials which each have a 0.5 chance of success, what is the probability of seeing between 40 and 67 successes?"] One-tailed p-value of 0.07, two-tailed p-value of 0.14. So the odds are about 1 in 7, or 1 in 14. You might want to ask yourself "Do I really believe that, if I thought I might be about to get fired, that would have no influence on whether I tried to join a union?" [Answering this question in the negative means you can justify using the one-tailed p-value, but it also means the odds of getting fired should be substantially above 50%.] Note also that this number shifts substantially as you move the odds of getting laid off away from 50%. At 53%, you have a one-tailed value of 16.44%. At 47%, it's 2.5%.
- derelicta 3y agoOfc Epic had to ruin everything
- Kiro 3y agoEpic sold it to Songtradr.
- tchbnl 3y agoYes. They acquired the company for no logical reason, did nothing with it, and then dumped it rather than spin it out because they don't care and want their money back. Epic ruined it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- johnnyanmac 3y agoFrom the perspective of a Bandcamp customer, does any of this actually affect their ability to browse, buy, and listen to music? "ruin" implies the quality degraded, while "nothing" implies a neutral progression. The only degregation here is the layoffs from the torch passing, but I believe Bandcamp still has more employees now than they did before being acquired.
- dimask 3y agoWell, it shows a different philosophy that will eventually get spilled in the rest the service.
- drcongo 3y agoNearly the entire editorial staff have been laid off, for music fans /artists of certain genres, these were the only people writing about their music. That's a significant degradation. The employee head count bit needs a citation I think, I wasn't aware that Epic had hired anyone at all into the Bandcamp team during their brief custody which would make that statement completely impossible.
- siva7 3y agoSeems more like the layoffs were about laying off the union members. Some CEOs perceive unions as cancer that has to be stopped from metastasis. In countries with stronger union protection laws this move would have been illegal
- qwery 3y ago> Some CEOs The executive class exploit the labour of the working class to benefit themselves. CEOs are in general opposed to collective action among the workers beneath them as any shift of power to the workers necessarily represents a loss of power for the executive.
- Draiken 3y agoIt's probably illegal even in this case, as the US does have some union protection laws. But AFAICT enforcement is very lacking. The typical theory versus practice scenario where in practice they are not really effective.
- axus 3y agoI wonder if a compromise between "French-style" and "American-style" would be the government taking over the layoff business. Need to cut headcount? Send the Department of Labor your payroll, and they'll tell you who to lay-off.
- gruez 3y agoI can't wait for the next layoff where my newly hired star performers get laid off because some bureaucrat thought tenure was more important than job performance or whether they were working on an important project or not.
- silenced_trope 3y ago[flagged]
- banannaise 3y ago
- IshKebab 3y agoHere's the bit of the article they put in the middle after all the outrage: > "On Monday, October 16, 2023 over half of Bandcamp was laid off as a result of Epic Games’ divestiture to Songtradr,” Bandcamp United said in a statement. “Of those laid off, 40 were in the union bargaining unit out of a total 67 members. None of the eight (8) democratically elected bargaining team members received a job offer." I can't be bothered to work out the odds on that happening randomly but by intuition is that it's not super unlikely. Especially when you consider that the kinds of people who have time to lead a union are likely to be the kinds of people without important jobs. Also can't they just elect new leaders? The meeting does sound suss though.
- mandmandam 3y ago> the kinds of people who have time to lead a union are likely to be the kinds of people without important jobs ... Wow. That's something you'd never hear in Europe (outside of a golf course, at least). For the record, leading a union is an important job, and all that's required to want the job is a sense of fairness. In reality, many people balance multiple responsibilities, including leadership roles in unions alongside demanding jobs. The statement undermines the significance and complexity of leading a union. Union leadership often requires strategic thinking, negotiation skills, and a strong understanding of labor laws, which many would consider important skills. People with high-responsibility jobs may still prioritize union involvement because they see it as a vital activity that aligns with their career or personal values. Stereotyping people who are involved in union leadership as having anunimportant job is a damn near uniquely American notion. It's the result of decades of mind-warping propaganda.
- 2d8a875f-39a2-4 3y agoTime to make sure you have downloaded everything you bought on BC.
- jcpst 3y agoMy thoughts too. This is going to be tedious for those of us with larger collections… too bad there doesn’t seem to be a way to bulk download from my library.
- brian626 3y agoOne solution to this, albeit a fairly technical one, can be found here: https://github.com/Ezwen/bandcamp-collection-downloader https://github.com/Ezwen/bandcamp-collection-downloader . I've been using it for years to download my library in FLAC format. There are also a bunch of GUI tools that claim to download libraries (search for "bandcamp downloader") but I haven't used any of them.
- jcpst 3y agoI was hoping someone would chime in with something like this. Thank you!
- tadhgpearson 3y agoIs there a good alternative platform for independent artists?
- FireInsight 3y agoI download everything I buy on BC immediately.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kundi 3y agoWe've been developing a curated alternative to Bandcamp for electronic music, which also replaces Soundclound and Mixcloud. It's called Formaviva (https://formaviva.com https://formaviva.com) We are a bootstrapped team of musicians, loyal to independent music so we want out platform to stay that way. We're also hiring: https://formaviva.com/jobs https://formaviva.com/jobs PS: I'm one of the team members
- dsign 3y agoI had a quick look at your site. From the "Terms of Service": > Unless otherwise stated, Samorastnik d.o.o. and/or its licensors own the intellectual property rights for all material on Formaviva. Where's the "otherwise" for people that post music on your platform? I was actually searching for your legal status (which kind of legal persona you are and in which jurisdiction). I couldn't find a thing on your website.
- drcongo 3y agoYikes.
- kundi 3y agoTo be honest, according to our potential misbelief about the world and how it works treating the project as a "sacred child", which might be an attitude very unknown to some of you here, it hasn't striked us that someone would go to look and read the Terms of Service, before really looking at the site, its mission and the music. Perhaps you haven't had a chance to arrive there yet, but we will take your comment as a recommendation for the improvement, which will be implemented in the coming days so that also "law-oriented music lovers" will be pleased with the law-confirming evolution.
- Applejinx 3y agoIt did not occur to you that musicians would look at the terms of their contract? You plan to, but have not yet, implement unspecified changes, not for musicians but 'law-oriented music lovers'? I am just about speechless. May your 'sacred child' not come to term. edit: I can't find any sign that anybody else anywhere is even aware of this… if what you mean is that the project is JUST you, and there won't be anybody else signed to your project, then apologies, carry on :) however, that's super not anything like Bandcamp.
- mbix77 3y ago[flagged]
- Ylpertnodi 3y agoPoor pay.
- ivolimmen 3y agoI find it so weird to read these stories on how Americans cope with unionizing. In the Netherlands where I live it is very common and normal to be member of a union. Most branches have a union, IT sector is a "free sector" and does not have a union. My wife works as a teacher and she is member of a union.
- the_other 3y agoIn the UK, many IT roles can join the Communication Workers Union[0] [0]: https://www.cwu.org/ https://www.cwu.org/
- rwmj 3y agoOr Prospect https://prospect.org.uk/ https://prospect.org.uk/, a non-aligned (they don't give money to political parties) union of "scientists, engineers, tech experts and in other specialist roles".
- varispeed 3y agoThanks to updated IR35 employers can bypass unions altogether. As IT deemed employees don't get any employment rights.
- youngtaff 3y agoUmbrella companies are going to be in for a rude awakening sooner or later As someone who's outside IR35 I can't see the point in being inside rather than just taking a full time role with a company, sure there's some flexibility but the disadvantages outweigh the advantages in my view
- varispeed 3y agoThere's a common misunderstanding regarding umbrella companies and their relation to IR35 legislation. Contrary to some beliefs, umbrella companies aren't subject to IR35. This regulation is designed for individuals who offer their services through an intermediary which they either manage or hold a financial stake in. However, when you're employed through an umbrella company or a large consultancy, you're considered an employee of that entity, thus IR35 doesn't apply in this context. Therefore, there's no impending "rude awakening" for umbrella companies concerning IR35. The challenge in regulating umbrella companies lies in the similarity of their business structures to those of large consultancies. They operate nearly identically, and differentiating between the two would require an additional, layer of regulation that could potentially face legal objections. IR35 itself is more about preventing professionals from departing large consultancies, establishing direct client engagements, and consequently, fostering competition. Ultimately, many small enterprises begin with the business owners personally providing services until they expand sufficiently to employ additional staff. However, IR35 essentially nips that in the bud and ensures the talent stays in the employment pool, corporations can exploit.
- the_other 3y agoIn the UK we have large unions that represent the individuals regardless where they work. I’ve not heard of company-specific unions here, although I’ve not looked for them either. Presumably companies must still recognise the unions. Is it more common in the US to have company-specific unions? Are the large “independent” unions present at all? I would assume that being larger and independent of an employer would make them more useful to their members. Watching, casually, the news of Bandcamp’s and Moog’s unions over the last year, I couldn’t shake the feeling they wouldn’t work out as they’d be too small and likely their leadership inexperienced.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- calpaterson 3y agoThey weren't a company-specific union but a branch of OPEIU which looks like a general union for what letting agents call "professionals". To translate what I think was happening into British parlance: they were trying to negotiate employer recognition plus a collective bargaining arrangement. I don't know if their leadership was good or not but American trades unionism is pretty different to ours. Employees typically don't have a huge amount of legal rights and so getting your workplace unionised is much more of a battle than here. On the other hand, America has de facto closed shops which are illegal pretty much everywhere in Europe.
- Xophmeister 3y agoI've worked for a company in the UK which had a "staff association", which was orthogonal to any part of the business (i.e., no conflicting interests) and as such operated as a de facto union -- in the employee assistance and collective bargaining senses -- for the company's employees. While it was recognised by HR, ultimately its functions were incorporated by HR into the company as a matter of policy and the independent association was disbanded, amongst much consternation from the loss of true impartiality.
- Traubenfuchs 3y agoIn Austria, companies can have a Betriebsrat, the... company-council, I suppose. It's made up of employees and they have some legal powers like delaying someone getting fired, they should provide legal health and generally support employees in any kind of "altercation" with the employer/manager side etc. It's not mandatory and not all companies have it. I once joked, at my first job: "We should create a Betriebsrat!", my boss took me to his office and explained to me for an hour how horrible those are for a company. Companies are absolutely not allowed to prevent employees from forming one and he was incredibly afraid of having one in his company...
- einpoklum 3y agoThe US has an ultra-employer-slanted legal system, where a workplace changing hands can have the new owner firing all employees then deciding whom to re-hire, rather than needing cause for any termination, and being required to act with minimal good faith, to hold a session hearing with candidates for termination to allow them to make their case for keeping them in employ etc. But, hey songtradr, here some ideas for Bandcamp's new name! * Banned Camp * Boot Camp * Sudden Death Camp * Union Busting Camp * Camp Greed etc.
- hknmtt 3y ago[flagged]
- gizmo 3y agoNot every employee is a good negotiator. And poor negotiators get underpaid in a market system even when they are great at their job. Unions fix this market inefficiency by having good negotiators act on their behalf.
- Vaslo 3y agoThe company doesn’t pay for the increased cost though. I pay as a consumer. What do I get in return, especially since I’m not in nor have any interest in joining one?
- gizmo 3y agoAs a consumer you benefit from maximally exploited workers. This is why rich countries import so many products from poor countries that have barely any labor protections. In the good old days companies paid strike-breakers to crack skulls and sometimes kill employees who agitated for better working conditions. It is because of collective bargaining that workers got a 5 day work-week, mandatory holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, a basic pension, and the right to a safe workplace. Many have died to ensure these basic rights for everybody. In the good old days employers didn't have to take factory safety into consideration. If you got crippled by factory machinery you would get fired and live the rest of your short life in destitution. Let's go back to that system. Employees will be free to choose the factory that maims them. The cost savings will surely be passed on to the consumer.
- master-lincoln 3y agoConsumers don't get anything. This is not about them. This is about workers making sure to be treated fairly and using their power (the collective productivity they stand for) to bargain better conditions with employers. How else do you want to balance out the power distribution?
- 3y ago
- dschuetz 3y agoBye-bye bandcamp.
- ZiiS 3y agoSo basically they are assuming they will reach bankruptcy before the lawsuits resolve.
- d--b 3y agoSome people just think they can get away with the most stupid moves. It's incredible.
- rsolva 3y agoBandcamp has served me well for many years, but I don't use it anymore. I would really like to see something like Castopod [0], but for artists! Spinning up a website where you showcase and sell your music should (and could!) be as easy as using Wordpress, either via a subscription or self-hosted – on your own domain. Being plugged into the Fediverse makes it much easier to interact with fans and build a connection with your audience. It also makes it easy for people to share and talk about a track or and album. None of this requires that you tie yourself to yet another VC-funded startup and a closed garden. Maybe someone is building something like this already, that I am not aware of? [0]: https://castopod.org/ https://castopod.org/
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- comatory 3y agoIf you're not a technical type you will not be bothered with setting up a website so that's why I think centralized services will always win. It's similar to why people don't make their own websites but just post to social media. I can imagine a 1-click solution that would set up everything. But bandcamp also has this functionality where labels can list their artists etc so I think it wouldn't work that well.
- rsolva 3y agoThats why I used Wordpress and Castopod as examples, as both offer subscription services in addition to self-hosting. The most important part is the option to use your own domain name, so an artist can take controll over its own brand and keep options open for the future. Wordpress has already integrated with the Fediverse, btw!
- jzb 3y agoPeople need to stop spouting the idea that plugging into the fediverse is "easy." Maybe for you, maybe for me, but the vast chorus since Twitter started circling the drain says otherwise. While I am a fan of federated social, it does not solve the problem for artists of replacing Bandcamp in any way, shape, or form. Bandcamp provided a storefront, payment handling, a distribution mechanism[1], and a potential audience + editorial that kept people coming back. A Castopod for Musicians does none of this. [1] Distribution of digital media, anyway. Distributing physical media was still an exercise left to the artist.
- kriro 3y agoFor another perspective, in Germany, if you are an elected representative of the workers (Personalrat) you have special protection against being laid off during your term. It's basically impossible (technically it is but it never happens and the requirements are very strict). There's pros and cons to this of course. These are not the union bargainers though but rather the people who represent workers' interest in the company (they need to sign off on contract changes etc.). The bargainers are usually working for the union and not a company.
- qwery 3y ago> Songtradr had no access to union membership information and we executed our employment offer process with full-consideration of all legal requirements I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but I'd like to take a moment to thank Songtradr for consulting their lawyers and full-considering all legal requirements. I believe them when they say they didn't legally acquire the union's documentation on membership. But they "carried out a comprehensive, full company evaluation that involved a detailed examination of each role" and seem pretty anal about their legal requirements. It's become expected that a prospective employee's social media accounts will be "evaluated" as part of the hiring process, so I imagine that was the case here, too. (Do you think any of the union members, the union-curious or even the anti-union weirdos ever mentioned the union on twitter?) It goes on to explain that the "evaluation considered several factors such as product groups, job functions, employee tenure, performance evaluations[0]," and amusingly "the importance of roles for smooth business operations". [0] performance evaluations were just one of several factors evaluated (comprehensively) in the detailed examination during the full company evaluation
- creshal 3y ago> I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but I'd like to take a moment to thank Songtradr for consulting their lawyers and full-considering all legal requirements. That's just the bare minimum they have to do to not get sued, is that really thankworthy?
- slikrick 3y agoapparently the bar for companies is that low that HN is bootlicking the bare minimum. it's honestly hilarious. this is extremely shady, and I don't know why people are trusting the source directly lol. they wouldn't say they did anything untoward, ever
- glitcher 3y agoYou are here, so you are also HN. There are also other HN comments here that disagree with the parent post just as you do. Saying what HN does or does not do is almost always going to be provably false and tends to add nothing of value to the conversation. I would even go so far as hypothesizing that on any given controversial topic there tends to be a large divide of opposing opinions on clear display. But maybe I just think that because I'm HN.
- levifig 3y agoThis kind of explains why Epic sold them. This still doesn't explain why Epic bought them…
- sn0wleppard 3y agoTo use as a pawn in their app store lawsuits https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/epic-games-drags-bandcamp-into-its-google-antitrust-case/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/epic-games-drags-ban...
- sprgit8 3y agoThat seems like a rather obviously wrong take. There were ample companies supporting Epic (or rather, fighting Apple) before they filed their lawsuit, which was also long before Epic acquired bandcamp. 08/2020 Epic files suit against Apple and Google https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_v._Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_v._Apple 09/2020 Discussion of Epic vs. Bandcamp and app store fees: https://www.shacknews.com/article/120550/tim-sweeney-on-why-epic-doesnt-use-bandcamps-purchase-model-on-ios https://www.shacknews.com/article/120550/tim-sweeney-on-why-... 05/2021 "The trial ran from May 3 to May 24, 2021" from the same wikipedia link. 03/2022 Epic acquires bandcamp, a year after their trial. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/arts/music/epic-games-bandcamp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/arts/music/epic-games-ban... Why would Epic acquire bandcamp as a "pawn" to use a year after their trial concluded? It's far more reasonable to assume Epic had a legitimate business interest in Bandcamp, and if anything, the execs of the companies had started talking due to the (concluded) lawsuit and shared interest in not losing 30% of their revenue.
- sprgit8 3y agoThis is just a guess from a UE game developer, but: a) Epic makes Unreal Engine and runs an asset store that includes sounds and music. Why not include bandcamp and their huge catalog in that store? b) Epic makes Fortnite, which has tons of music industry tie-ins through purchasable emotes, song tracks, and free in-game concerts. Bandcamp sounds like a great avenue to expand existing agreements to sell music through Fortnite. c) Epic also acquired Harmonix, which is the original developer of Guitar Hero and various music game spinoffs. Who knows wtf they're doing with Harmonix, but Harmonix+Bandcamp seems like an easy business strategy. "Buy this album on bandcamp and get it in the new Harmonix game too", and vice versa. Epic has their hands in an awful lot of pies these days, and their layoff statement seemed to be a straightforward admission that their eyes were bigger than their stomach.
- datenwolf 3y agoDoes anyone know the size of Bandcamp's catalogue. I'm just wondering about hardware costs (storage) would be for prospective competitors who intend to swoop up Bandcamp's customers (artists and listeners). Audio is a lot less demanding than video, and since there's no DRM it's basically just static files with some access control.
- crtasm 3y agoTheir API reports 52,774,875 tracks. https://bandcamp.com/api/mobile/24/serverinfo?platform=android&version=1 https://bandcamp.com/api/mobile/24/serverinfo?platform=andro...
- brian626 3y agoAnother factor to consider is that BC makes files available to download in a variety of formats (MP3, FLAC, AAC, etc.) Presumably they're transcoding on the fly from a lossless format and not storing all those extra files...
- crtasm 3y agoYes, there's often a wait on the download page while the transcoding is done.
- garba_dlm 3y agopublishing is no longer a business model. the only 'business' left for people in that 'industry' is to charge rent which is taxes
- sickcodebruh 3y agoFor some context, it’s important to understand the degree to which Bandcamp’s success and ubiquity with independent music is built on a people-first, anti-corporate culture. Bandcamp is an obsession for a very large and engaged segment of the independent music world. A good friend, a professional musician, told me “I feel like I’m watching my childhood home burn to the ground.” This is far from a unique sentiment. People are mourning. I’m building an alternative[0] to Bandcamp, announced the day after Epic’s sale, and I am receiving a disruptive volume of messages from people looking to sign up and get involved in response to this. It’s not just users, it’s bands and labels and people who’ve contributed to Bandcamp over the years. Many of these are people with large voices and followings and businesses of their own. This has been building for some time. The Epic sale set it in motion. The formation of the union was a signal to supporters that the staff distrusted the new owners and were taking steps to protect the company’s mission. The Songtradr sale escalated it. The perception of targeting union members is being interpreted as confirmation of all fears. So while the tech industry has dealt with high-profile layoffs for the past year, I don’t think most if any of those companies have the cultural significance of Bandcamp or have a for-the-people ethos baked into their DNA. This is much more significant than layoffs after an acquisition. The perception of targeting union members could do irreparable harm to a brand built on honesty, support, and integrity. [0] - https://ampwall.com https://ampwall.com
- Dah00n 3y agoSounds good, but since it is not EU based, my band and I will have to stay put. Good luck though. Competition is a good thing.
- sbarre 3y agoI'm not affiliated with Ampwall (or even American) but I'm curious what the objection is here?
- diggan 3y ago(Usually) Better/more stable working conditions for workers in Europe compared to the US. Band could also just be based in EU and prefer the user-protections EU offers compared to the US.
- Fischgericht 3y agoIn any case anyone wants to read about a EU perspective: Over here in Germany the "trick" of doing an asset deal to get rid of employees (and any benefits they may have earned over time) is very risky, and can fire back massively. It's not a black-and-white thing, but the labor courts have check-lists: - Are people at the new company work on the same tasks as they did in the old one? - Are people at the new company still using the old office space, and are seated where they were before? - Are salaries or work contracts near-identical? - ... and then some. If you get a couple of "yes" here, you now are in a world of pain: In this case the whole transaction is regarded as a (not sure if that is a good translation of the German word "verdeckter Betriebsübergang") "hidden transfer of business", and you would suddenly automatically get ALL employees and benefits back, with no easy option to fire anyone afterwards. If someone had been at the previous company for 10 years, it legally would now be also have been employed for 10 years with the new company. This is why the asset deal trick to get rid of employees is only done by very uneducated managers over here :)
- tomcam 3y agoSuper informative. I must reveal my bias toward a free market here, but I also remember keenly what it was like to be a powerless employee. Germany appears to have by far the strongest economy in the EU but with higher unemployment than the USA. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the balance there vs the USA? I can imagine compelling arguments for each approach.
- kjkjadksj 3y agoAre unemployment benefits better in germany? If they are you’d expect it to be higher than the US, as in the US workers might run out of the social support network sooner and be forced to take any job just to eat and shelter.
- erinnh 3y agoThey are. What I was taught in macroeconomics in this topic (excuse me if I get something wrong, it’s been a few years) In general it’s very expected unemployment to „generally“ be higher in Germany. Because it’s harder to fire people here, people also get hired somewhat slower. However in the flip side it’s also expected that during harsh economic times people will be fired less because of how „hard“ it is to hire people. So it’s a trade-off.
- ilyt 3y agoSo Epic basically bought bandcamp, shot it thru the head and sold the corpse to Songtradr. Shame
- jjulius 3y agoSorta, except Epic didn't even really do anything with Bandcamp. It's more like... Epic basically bought Bandcamp, hung out with it for a bit, then sold it to Songtradr who promptly shot it in the head as soon as Epic turned around.
- savanaly 3y agoDid you mean to say Songtradr? Epic bought it, let it exist with no changes, then sold it.
- sprgit8 3y agoIn your analogy, why did this successful, profitable company (Bandcamp) need to be acquired? Following that, why did Epic choose to get rid of a successful, profitable, independent sub-company that would have helped keep Epic profitable? It sure looks like Bandcamp was already failing and unprofitable, and selling out to Epic was a desperate attempt to keep the company alive. Songtradr seems to agree with Epic that bandcamp is not solvent and cannot continue operating as it was. This sucks because Bandcamp is great, but it's not hard to see the writing on the wall. All Epic did here is inject cash into bandcamp's corpse to keep it alive for an extra year or two, before it had to cut the IV drip.
- gslin 3y agohttps://archive.ph/GyzOF https://archive.ph/GyzOF
- ramesh31 3y agoI'm the most pro-union person you'll ever meet, but this is so cringe. Strikes work when you can shut down a factory and physically keep the scabs from getting in with a picket line. Not so much when you're a remote tech worker who can be instantly replaced by an equally competent third-worlder for $2/hr. You gotta know where your bargaining power lies, or you're just being an idiot.
- chimeracoder 3y ago> I'm the most pro-union person you'll ever meet, but this is so cringe. Strikes work when you can shut down a factory and physically keep the scabs from getting in with a picket line. Not so much when you're a remote tech worker who can be instantly replaced by an equally competent third-worlder for $2/hr. You gotta know where your bargaining power lies, or you're just being an idiot. You can't call yourself "the most pro-union person you'll ever meet" if your opinion is equivalent to "unions are only appropriate for those who already have structural power".
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- SixDouble5321 3y agoI am hearing "engineers are fungible." But any company can just outsource whatever they want. Why hire anyone from your own country for any reason? And why hire people in silicon Valley where they cost double what they would pretty much anywhere else?
- dehrmann 3y agoI get the impression there's an attitude from the newer generation of tech workers--the ones that are more progressive and less libertarian--about their right to unionize. They were so interested in union politics and the reading about the glory days of unions that they overlooked their current situation. You don't sell a company to break up a union and lay off half the staff. Bandcamp wasn't a good fit any more, and it was over-staffed. Unions worked during their heyday because there was a labor shortage, so they had leverage. Bandcamp employees didn't have that leverage.
- afterburner 3y agoUnions don't need a labour shortage to have power. Collective bargaining is its own leverage. Besides, unemployment is low, so I'm not sure why you're talking about there not being a labour shortage.
- dehrmann 3y ago> Besides, unemployment is low Is it low in tech? There have been a lot of layoffs over the past year.
- afterburner 3y agoIt's 3.1 percent in tech, so, yeah, it's low. Those layoffs are peanuts. https://www.statista.com/statistics/199995/rates-of-jobless-persons-in-the-us-information-sector/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199995/rates-of-jobless-...
- dehrmann 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37981149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37981149
- afterburner 3y agoNot sure what this proves. Maybe some people looking now are frustrated, but that's only from those who are looking. The point is a low number of people are looking in the first place. Hence low unemployment.
- Scotch3297 3y agoSongTradr recently acquired 7digital. They plan to put the Bandcamp catalogue in there, so my biggest fear is that they get rid of Bandcamp as a separate product and just force everyone to use 7digital. That would make sense, considering they fired most writers (which is one of the things that was making Bandcamp special) and would confirm that everyone who said "The buyer doesn't understand what they are buying" were 100% correct. For them, Bandcamp was some sort of "itunes store for weird music".