22 ms·

When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

• gabereiser 3y ago
  >Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good work - YTA of the team. If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” *edit* There’s a whole bunch of interesting information on why behavioral praise is better than outcome praise. Here’s a video about it I find sums it up perfectly (though it’s geared towards how it relates to children) https://youtu.be/59gx55bNunU https://youtu.be/59gx55bNunU
  • whatshisface 3y ago
    >“I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.
    • jlund-molfese 3y ago
      I like to say something like "Hey, I realize you put a lot of hard work into X, but I think Y would be more efficient and save us all time in the long run!" Because then you're being totally truthful (assuming they actually are putting in effort) while still not coming across too directly.
      • sokoloff 3y ago
        "It's impressive how much time you were able to waste while only accomplishing X", but said a lot more politely.
        • gabereiser 3y ago
          This is how that would come across to most people, yes. Praise should never be a time to display your intellectual superiority.
          • deleted 3y ago
            [deleted]
    • thenose 3y ago
      Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.
      • user_named 3y ago
        No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.
        • tines 3y ago
          It's not about phrasing, it's about being genuine and also choosing to have a certain perspective which builds the other person up. There's nothing to see through.
          • ragona 3y ago
            > it's about being genuine I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Don't lie, _actually_ find something good to say. It's a goddamned super power, and it's also very good for your own mental health.
          • stcroixx 3y ago
            It’s out of context. Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.
            • tines 3y ago
              > If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point. That's true, but nobody (that I saw) suggested saying things that don't fit the context. > Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. Everyone wants respect and for people to be "on their side," and that's what we're talking about here. If someone doesn't care about your opinion, they won't mind you treating them respectfully, but if someone does care, then they'll mind when you don't. So why not just treat everyone respectfully?
    • rqtwteye 3y ago
      “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” I hate this because it’s usually just a shit sandwich. “Great work. Actually it sucked. Keep going.”
      • gabereiser 3y ago
        “Great work” is an outcome. “Great effort” is an effort praise. It can still suck and you can still have great effort. You can’t have Great Work and it sucks.
        • freedomben 3y ago
          what's the difference between "Great work" and "I really liked how you tackled this" ? I assume it's a sports analogy for american football or similar. If you try to tackle an opposing player and you miss or do a bad job, "I really liked how you tackled <player>" is clearly talking about the work, not the effort. If you were talking about the effort, it should be something like, "that was a good attempt!" It's kind of like, "Nice shot!" when the person actually missed the goal. It just doesn't make sense.
          • hotnfresh 3y ago
            Webster’s 1913 (as in, the 1913 edition of the dictionary) relates this sense as “grappling with”, as in wrestling, and provides an example from a Dublin University publication to illustrate this exact idiomatic usage we’re discussing. I’d say it’s not derived from American football.
            • freedomben 3y ago
              thank you for sharing that (truly that is interesting data), but how do you know that GP was using the Webster's 1913 definition?
              • joshuamorton 3y ago
                Because "tackling a problem" is about the approach. That's how the phrase is commonly understood. The Webster's reference is just backup. Dictionary.com provides "Make determined efforts to deal with (a problem or difficult task)." As the first verb form, before the football/rugby definition. Further, the hn guidelines suggest that even if there was more ambiguity, we should presume the strongest interpretation.
    • cratermoon 3y ago
      Have you never had a co-worker do something in a way you appreciate for it's skillfulness but doesn't quite address what you asked them to help with? Have you ever put extra effort into something and done your best, only to have someone ignore your accomplishments and focus on what you did wrong? You don't have to like the result to like the co-workers initiative.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      Let’s break down your version: “I think it would be better if…” You start with an opinion. That’s going to cause any listener to put up their guard. It’s the beginning of any sort of confrontations. By saying “Thank you for the effort…” you are acknowledging the work they put into it and showing empathy by seeing their work they have done. If it isn’t correct, either it should have been course corrected by management or volunteer for the next one. If you think something should be done a certain away across the board, create a brown bag or lunch and learn where you evangelize it and get consensus. You aren’t lying when you give praise about someone’s effort (unless they gave none, in which case why are you praising to begin with?), you would be lying if you said “You did a great job” when the solution is potentially tech debt for later. It’s a matter of communication and human behavior. You wouldn’t praise someone by saying “I think it could be better”.
      • freedomben 3y ago
        Your second example is a good one and I agree is a more effective approach to communicating. But GP was right. There's a huge difference between your first example: > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” and the second: > “Thank you for the effort…” The first is most likely a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be offering an alternative suggestion! If somebody said that to me I'd feel extremely patronized and would consider that person very disingenuous.
        • gabereiser 3y ago
          Offering a different point of view helps either confirm their decisions or open up avenues for improvement of their work. It’s not about telling “this is how I would do it” but rather “Have you thought about other options and approaches? What do you think? Why did you choose this route?” helps the individual weigh the pros and cons with each. It should never be an opportunity for you to chime in with how you would have done it (even if you would have done it that way). You simply want to expose the other possibilities so that they are aware of them and haven’t overlooked a potential savings or killer-feature.
          • 3y ago
    • darkerside 3y ago
      Can you help me understand your intent with phrasing your response that way? I can see it coming off as challenging instead of collaborative, but if there's something I'm not seeing, I'd like to know. Or, taking your cue, I could just say, "I think it would be better if you didn't immediately presume that you knew better than the person who actually spent hours working on the problem". And, for those who say they like the direct approach in the second paragraph better, I don't disagree that it's a better response to a flip HN comment. When you're reacting to something someone has put serious personal effort into, a bit of tact goes a long way.
    • groby_b 3y ago
      If you struggle with "I really liked" because you really didn't, I'd suggest the value-neutral "That's an interesting approach!" followed by "have you thought about X"/"how does it compare to <other approach>"/"how did you land on it". You're still starting from a positive point of view for the recipient, which makes them more open to actually engaging with you. Without having to "pretend to smile and praise". It's an interesting choice alright. If it weren't, you wouldn't be talking about it.
      • whatshisface 3y ago
        It's still not an interesting approach unless it interested you... There are no positive sounding meaningless adjectives because positive and meaningless are conflicting attributes.
        • groby_b 3y ago
          If you're dead-set on being somebody nobody wants to work with, sure, keep ignoring that people have feelings. It won't work particularly well for you in the long run, but you do you.
      • gabereiser 3y ago
        Would you praise someone by saying “That’s an interesting approach?” Or is that just a comment on their outcome?
        • groby_b 3y ago
          I'm not going to praise an outcome that's clearly suboptimal, but "that's interesting" still beats beating them over the head with "well, I'm always scrupulously honest, I don't care about anybody's feelings, your stuff sucks". There's always effort-based praise if you want to praise.
    • eschneider 3y ago
      Very often they _have_ thought about the other approach and rejected it for reasons. When you go into something like this open minded, you might come out learning something new. :)
    • grey-area 3y ago
      Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego dictate the conversation rather than ideas.
      • whatshisface 3y ago
        "I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.
        • johnnyanmac 3y ago
          But what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.
          • staunton 3y ago
            So, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...
            • johnnyanmac 3y ago
              You sound wishy washy and you need to review your requirements, and/or rope in someone who does knows how to do it right in that case. There is nothing wrong with "this doesn't feel right but I don't have the capacity to tell". If you aren't qualified for that sort of code review, find the proper peer who can.
              • 3y ago
    • ajuc 3y ago
      Interpretation depends on the culture. In UK this is basically "you fucked up", in Germany this means "you did great with small nuances" :)
    • matwood 3y ago
      I think the OP confused 2 states. One is bad, and it's important to let the person know it didn't meet standard for whatever reason. Use all the normal communication styles for that. The other is, it wasn't done how I would do it, but isn't necessarily bad. That's when I would use the approach you have an issue with. In a lot of engineering there is no right answer, only different tradeoffs. It could certain be that the reviewer isn't seeing a tradeoff that the writer saw, etc...
    • cacois 3y ago
      I've often phrased it closer to "I like how much effort you put into this. You clearly put some thought in, did you consider this approach?" I don't have to say I liked the solution to appreciate the effort and dedication.
    • lemmsjid 3y ago
      I think it's important not to lie, but I don't think the above is automatically a lie. Instead, it's a call to evaluate people on multiple dimensions rather than one. When you're giving feedback to someone, it is often a knee jerk thing to ONLY evaluate the outcome of their work. The other thing you should evaluate, though, is your estimation of their effort, e.g. how hard they worked at it, and your estimation of their process, e.g. how well they used their time. If you only evaluate the outcome of their work, and the work is not adequate, you have given them a purely negative evaluation. If you acknowledge respect for their toil and their process, then you have given them 2 positive evaluations and 1 negative evaluation. You're also acknowledging that because you respect their toil and process, they are doing the right thing in spite of needing the course correction you are providing. Of course, maybe you have a negative opinion on all 3 aspects of the evaluation. If you think they didn't apply themselves, e.g. their effort was not good enough, AND you think they were't efficient in their process, AND you think the outcome was bad, then certainly it would be a lie to praise any of those aspects, though at that point there's almost certainly something more fundamental that's going on and the person is not a good fit for the job. Finally, it's important to evaluate your own sense of certainty about the feedback. I think the important thing about the above advice is that if you are giving feedback and you only focus on the course correction part, it's safe to assume that most people will take that as negative feedback on all the aspects of their work. Now, there are situations and teams where there is so much trust built up around everyone's mutual respect that you can skip to the outcome feedback. There are also feedback-recipients who are confident enough in themselves that they feel that they don't need anything but correctional feedback. In other words, "This was shit!" can totally fly when there's a lot of mutual trust and confidence. But too often I've seen people misread the room in that aspect: THEY, the feedback-givers, have plenty of psychological safety, and they think that is extended to other people who absolutely don't feel that way.
  • thenose 3y ago
    The other (depressing) situation is that newcomers often want to praise someone for their work, not realizing they work in a company whose managers are focused on playing games and forming alliances. In such environments, praising someone can actually work against you. I've heard the finance tech industry tends to suffer from this. Thankfully this seems rarer than the one you're mentioning, where everyone is happy to build a nice company they want to work for. It's an odd situation, where the natural incentives align to reward the opposite. Is there a way to guard against those?
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      I’ve seen things… Unfortunately the only way to win at office politics is to either not play, or play to win. Pick. If you find yourself in an organization where upper management is vying for control playing politics and alliances, I think it might be time to reach out to your network.
  • metafunctor 3y ago
    Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. I'd leave that boss or job as soon as possible. Giving praise should always be OK. Rephrasing feedback for bad work as praise also sounds like a bad idea. In my experience, negative feedback should be honest, clear, constructive, and private.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      Agreed. If my manager was like what I described, not liking praise given because it was out of scope of their routine, and was immediately upset - I’d be gone too. However, if it’s something that happens over and over again and eventually your manager says “Hey, it’s great your helping others, let’s document that so you can get back to the departments initiatives”. I’d have more respect.
    • ghaff 3y ago
      >Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. There are gradations of things though. There are sometimes things you want to be doing, don't take a huge amount of time, and you know are clearly out of your scope. You then have a choice to just stop doing or continue to do quietly on the side. (Where the helpee knows silence is golden.) Companies function through all sorts of informal networks that are often better for not having too much light shown on everything.
  • giantg2 3y ago
    "they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work." So true. My manager was telling me it would look good if I contribute outside of the team. I recently spent maybe 15-30 minutes helping another team - not because I was told to but just because it was the right thing to do (I was the only person left with the knowledge). My manager found out then told me that I shouldn't be helping other teams without getting approval, etc. WTF?
    • NordSteve 3y ago
      The only way I'd give one of my reports this feedback is if I'd previously heard "I'm spending all of my time helping other teams get stuff done, and it's blocking me from getting my own stuff done."
  • shortrounddev2 3y ago
    > or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work This is me. My boss lays so much on my plate that I legit get talked to when I help other people. I tell them not to tell anyone I helped them
  • Spooky23 3y ago
    I think that performative praise is obnoxious most of the time, and causes more trouble than it’s worth, unless there’s a process behind it. Individual public stuff tends to bias heroics or forget people behind the scenes. In public, team praise is the best policy.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      Sometimes you just want someone to acknowledge the hard effort you put into it and share the rejoice that it’s over/complete.
      • Spooky23 3y ago
        Totally agree. You just need to be mindful of context. I’m in a senior director role. Part of that is that I need to be cognizant of what I say and how I say it, because Spooky23 is talking, but “corporate officer guy” is who the audience hears. One early mistake that I made was recognizing a colleague who was essential to my aspect of delivering a key project. Which was true. But because of how I said it and what I didn’t provide (context), a person reached out to me, genuinely hurt and upset because they felt that the (very significant) contributions that they made were forgotten or ignored. You can’t walk on eggshells, but a celebration should be that.
        • gabereiser 3y ago
          Similarly had that experience as well as a director. I learned to give praise to the team and individually prior to doing any sort of public showing. I try to offer up equal praise across the team to reinforce it was a team effort. To prove that it’s not favorites or one’s contribution didn’t outweigh the others’ You can’t walk on eggshells but you can elevate your empathy and awareness - choosing the right words is a skill.
  • grecy 3y ago
    > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Commonly called "Positive, to & try", taught to Snowboard Instructors. i.e. "I really like how you did that, to get even better results, try x" (I'm being vague to not make it about snowboarding, but it's important to be concrete) i.e. Instead of "that took too long, make it faster", use I really like how you got consensus in that meeting. To make it happen even faster, try outlining the pros and cons of the solution right at start of the meeting. or instead of "You're not bending your knees enough", use I really like how you completed those (snowboard) turns. To get even higher performance, try bending your knees more so the edge of your snowboard bites into the snow harder.
    • xxs 3y ago
      At some point people understand the 'approach', and it is extra condescending. Being straight/blunt is not about hurting someone's feeling.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      Except I’m not imparting some snowbro knowledge. I’m asking if they had indeed, thought about that approach because odds are, we’ll be asked about it. I’m trying to either see if you, indeed looked at all the options and carved the gnarly path forward through it, or didn’t know this other way existed and you could use some of that knowledge to improve your solution. I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the VPs will ask - “What about X?” because some vendor is in their ear.
      • grecy 3y ago
        > snowbro knowledge Hey now, Ill have you know I'm a professional snowboard instructor. Certified and all. I get paid to snowboard. It's actually pretty rad.
  • confidantlake 3y ago
    The phrasing seems confusing and manipulative. Did you like my approach or not? I would rather someone be straight up with me. If you don't like the approach or would have done it differently say so and we can talk about it. Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like.
    • johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like. issue in cultures like this is compliments never come. Maybe a "thanks/good work" after the project/module is done, but by then it's empty words. feels more like "thanks for making me lots of money" instead of "thanks for contributing your skills to this project" if we treat compliments with a waterfall approach with no substance.
      • mcpackieh 3y ago
        In the culture of prefacing every simple question with empty praise, then all praise becomes an empty formality. It's far worse than receiving a simple "good work" after the job is done. If you have to choose between the two instead of finding some reasonable middle-ground, then you should choose the one that entails treating your coworkers like professional adults instead of emotionally sensitive children.
        • johnnyanmac 3y ago
          In reality, we tend towards one extreme. So to correct that, there is nothing wrong with over-correcting and leaning back if it becomes a problem. This is assuming benevolent actors, of course. IME even in attempts to over correct we may still end up undercorrecting. So I'm not too afraid of a huge shift to empty platitudes.
      • confidantlake 3y ago
        I tend to compliment people when they do something well at work. There is rarely a week that goes by where I haven't at least one compliment. To me that is more genuine. I am complimenting them with no ulterior motive. Not as some ploy to soften criticism.
  • thegrimmest 3y ago
    This is a very stylistic and subjective take. Not all workplace cultures and not all people prefer to communicate this way, and many of us resent the "YTA" label that is applied to a direct communication style. I don't work for praise, and I maintain high standards as a matter of personal professionalism. I couldn't care less whether my colleagues recognize me, and business leaders don't care about your effort; they care about the bottom line. It's not surprising that your video relates to children. This sort of feelings-driven approach has no place in a professional workplace full of adults who are all expected to know why they're there, the terms of their employment, and what objective they're working towards. In fact I find it somewhat demeaning to have the default communication style be so childish. Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? This holds true in the general case too: communication tailored to your audience is much more verbose, and therefore laborious to produce, than communication written following the ABCs - accuracy, brevity, clarity. Imagine all the time that such organizations waste rewording things ad infinitum. Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. It's just more efficient that way.
    • johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? "your code sucks" is even more concise. We can take a minute out of our time to elaborate and clarify, and of course not result to insults. >Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. And this mindset is exactly what leads to meltdowns in certain industries. "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse". People still want to generally feel like they belong and if all you put out is criticism they will find that belonging elsewhere. You can't be negative 100% of the time and be surprised when morale is down.
      • gabereiser 3y ago
        “FU” is even more concise. I don’t want to work in an environment where engineers actively put each other down instead of helping achieve goals.
  • samstave 3y ago
    >>they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work So, Yeah, im going to have to ask you to do more given you have received so much praise from your colleagues... Yeah.... Thankssssss.... - This is a valid concern. There are some many unaware wolves that think they are good managers because they have info on their staff, as opposed to a relationship understanding their staff....
  • ori_b 3y ago
    > If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.
    • anon84873628 3y ago
      Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?
      • camhart 3y ago
        Because its confusing. Don't say that you like something when you don't. It's a failure to communicate.
      • function_seven 3y ago
        I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.
        • jasonlotito 3y ago
          Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with? That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.
          • function_seven 3y ago
            No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?
  • brazzledazzle 3y ago
    Worth pointing out that you should always ask even when you think you don't need to. It's easy to think that a micromanager is always obvious to anyone outside their team but that's not a given. Some managers are very aware of the stigma and will try to hide it from outsiders.
  • rewmie 3y ago
    > If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Why are you telling your colleagues you "really liked" how they did something when you feel the need to call them out for "doing bad work"? It comes off as cynical backstabbing.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      You wouldn’t. You are either telling them you liked it or telling them they did it wrong. My comment was, if you are telling people they aren’t doing it right, rephrase it into something constructive instead of off-putting.
  • sensanaty 3y ago
    I'd hate to get a condescending review like that, hell I'd prefer someone straight up saying it's shit and not elaborating than trying to beat around the bush like this.
    • gabereiser 3y ago
      What part is condescending? Asking if you thought through another approach? Or asking for your findings?
  • ineptech 3y ago
    Fair warning, the research mentioned at the beginning of this video is controversial and (I think it's fair to say) has generally failed to replicate. The research in question ("Praise for intelligence can undermine children's motivation and performance", Dweck & Mueller): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ Overview of the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism Previous HN discussion on the paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571
    • reactordev 3y ago
      Has it? Ok, I’ll follow up and see if a better example can be found/substituted. Thank you.
  • xyst 3y ago
    I typically find these people in corporate firms. The “I want to be friends with everyone” person. Detangling their corporate double speak and no spine demeanor can become tiresome and counter productive.
  • jpadkins 3y ago
    Great comment, love the effort. Next reply can you try to be more genuine and less patronizing?
  • allarm 3y ago
    > I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach? I would slightly rephrase it like this: I liked your approach, because (reasons), though I believe there’s a better one, because (reasons). If you put it this way you show that you actually understood the approach and not just saying “do it my way”. It gives the opportunity to learn something and it invites to a discussion - “hey, I thought about your approach but I decided to use mine because…”
  • pxc 3y ago
    > If you are calling out your colleagues for [...] not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. Is the following alternative completely insane? Be more combative, but playful about it: > I don't like this code. Let's fight about it ;) > ... I feel like under a lot of circumstances that would be way more comfortable for me than trying to suss out whether someone was genuinely praising me, criticizing me, etc. Social ambiguity is more uncomfortable to me than disagreement or criticism. (To be clear, I'm not endorsing this as a general approach.)
  • mcpackieh 3y ago
    > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Both of these are bad. Split the difference and drop the smarmy "I really liked how you tackled this," crap. That sort of thing makes you sound like a mother praising her toddler's scribbled drawings. Don't treat your coworkers like kids. If you want to know if they considered another approach, just ask them that without trying to softball it. "Have you thought about this approach?" If that's what you want to know, that's what you should ask.
  • tick_tock_tick 3y ago
    > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Few things make me want to work with someone less then passive aggressive bullshit.
• nittanymount 3y ago
  this is a good thing to do in a team.
• ncr100 3y ago
  Yes. This helps build the type of organization YOU WANT TO WORK FOR. Reinforce it. You can't provide material motivation to the business (unless you're also the company's biggest customer .. heh.) You CAN provide reinforcing feedback to management. Quantify why XYZ coworker helped. And if Management does NOT listen, f'em. Notice when mgmt responds in a truly incorrect manner. And vote next with your feet.
  • mulmen 3y ago
    Don’t throw your coworkers under the bus. You may feel this cause is worthy but don’t force others into your crusade.
    • ncr100 3y ago
      Would an example be to celebrate someone who is doing something I think is great, and overlook celebrating others whose work is less my crusade? Or is the point to avoid critiquing coworkers TO management, bypassing seeking feedback of the person first?
      • mulmen 3y ago
        The point is to talk to your coworker first. You can’t know their relationship with their manager so you could do harm even if you intend to help.
        • ncr100 3y ago
          Ok, an unintended consequences scenario? I am interested though, when would praising a coworker negatively impact them via their manager?
          • mulmen 3y ago
            This has already been clearly explained in the thread. If you care read it from the root. The tl;dr is that you can’t know the relationship between a coworker and their manager. You may desire a world where that’s always productive but it’s simply not real. If a manager is hostile to your coworker and you provide unsolicited feedback the manager could use your well intentioned feedback to sabotage that peer. An example of this is “muulmen went out of their way to solve a launch blocker for my project.” But do you know I’m not already behind on a failed project out of my control but helping in a way I believe best benefits the company? Your unsolicited feedback could be the final piece of evidence that gets me blamed for the delay and fired, even though I helped you and the company. Do. Not. Talk. To. The. Authorities. Speak for yourself. NEVER for anyone else.
• agloe_dreams 3y ago
  I disagree with the angle on this about asking and how to go about things but mostly because complimenting in context is helpful. When someone does great work, tell everyone, not just their manager. Do it in public and clearly in standups after they talk about what they did last day/week. "I just want to mention, that work that Joe did on that module is fantastic, thanks!" It is so easy to be a force for good. Being the person who does this evenly for all good work is a guaranteed way to make others feel better, work better, and to develop real friendships. People tend to know when they are working hard. Compliment in public, correct in private.
  • constantly 3y ago
    I hope I never have to work with you. I would be mortified if someone did this to me.
    • random_kris 3y ago
      I hope I never have to work with you
      • dang 3y ago
        Please don't cross into personal attack.
    • dang 3y ago
      Please don't cross into personal attack.
  • master-lincoln 3y ago
    I never understood the "correct in private" stance. How can others learn who did not do the mistake? The argument to have critique in private only is probably because of ego and honor culture where people feel personally attacked in topics where it's not about them at all but about the actions they have taken in a professional context with rules and expectations. But I fully agree on not talking to the manager, but praising in the full team instead.
• Brajeshwar 3y ago
  My way is to write an internal Newsletter highlighting people’s interesting work, achievements, and highlight often-overlooked gotchas. People liked it, even the most introverted DevOps was happy that people started asked him more about his work, such as, his beautiful documentation.
• NeuroCoder 3y ago
  The lab I'm involved in right now started off pleasant but there were definitely a handful of people who were less than pleasant to work with. Our PI has played a big part in picking the right people but we've all been very supportive of each other too. I don't think any one person started it but we all speak well of each other and it's only improved over time even when providing criticism of each other's work. This has been a big deal given our time working with human subject data throughout a pandemic. At this point I can't think of anyone in my lab I don't like working with.
• pxc 3y ago
  Besides some more formal systems for praising/thanking people that my company has, my department has a 'Gratitude' chat on Teams dedicated to thanking people when someone goes out of their way, unblocks you, demonstrates extraordinary patience, gets back to you especially quickly, etc. I think it's awesome. It sets a public precedent for kind behavior and appreciative attitudes. It always makes me happy to see people thanking each other in that chat.
  • palata 3y ago
    > I think it's awesome. It sets a public precedent for kind behavior and appreciative attitudes. It always makes me happy to see people thanking each other in that chat. Which brings exactly the same problem as the likes: some people always appear on those chats, some people never do. Does that mean that they are doing a bad job? No... they just get less visibility. How do you get more visibility on the "gratitude" chat? By thanking the others, so that they see you more and think about thanking you in return, I suppose? In my experience, some teams keep congratulating themselves, some don't, at all. And management sees those who are visible, even if it is not fair. It can quickly get artificial, and a bit depressing for the people who don't really appear there.
    • pxc 3y ago
      My department is pretty siloed, so I don't offhand know who all normally works closely with whom. I don't consult the org chart when I see people praise or thank each other, either, so I don't have a good sense of how much public praise in my department is intra-team puffery. I can say, though, that I've (so far) never used that channel to thank anyone on my own team. On my own small team, my manager already knows when someone has been especially helpful to someone else. I use that chat in part to make things visible to external managers who otherwise might not know. > And management sees those who are visible, even if it is not fair. I admit that even in the best circumstances this could create some bias, but I don't think it has to be that severe. Managers should have other, better sources of information than that which should weigh more heavily than that. > It can quickly get artificial Yeah. I think keeping it low stakes and not treating it as some kind of informal metric is important for preserving some level of authenticity. Truthfully, though, I don't really find myself evaluating the authenticity of exchanges of gratitude between others. I just know that when I use it, I'm genuinely thankful to whomever I'm thanking, and so far I feel like the thanks I've received have also been genuine. > a bit depressing for the people who don't really appear there. That's true. I've even felt a bit of that myself. But I think ultimately it's imperative for organizations (especially managers, but to a lesser extent basically everyone) to try to ensure that all kinds of people feel appreciated for their work, including people who are introverts and people whose work is solitary or unsexy maintenance work. And that means that recognition can't just be formulaic or systematic or happen in only one place. Ideally, feeling underappreciated or left out in a certain system of recognition/thanks would be something you'd bring to your manager during a 1:1. And they could try to answer it by making your impact visible in some other way, like organizing a presentation or a demo of your work, or writing up some kind of report on it and sharing it somewhere, or just DMing you every now and then and letting you know that they had a conversation with so-and-so about how whatever you did was nice, helpful, vital, or whatever, or (hopefully!) arrange something more substantial like a promotion, raise, or bonus. I like our gratitude chat at work but I wouldn't begrudge anyone still feeling underappreciated for whatever reason or saying that it doesn't do much for them.
• nmstoker 3y ago
  This is good, but better yet is to then remind the manager again at the key point in the year/cycle right before performance reviews are being filled in. This has the most chance of having an impact plus it adds weight to the compliment (ie if you remembered how good they were perhaps five months later it's not just a throw away comment)
• AceyMan 3y ago
  Since I started in technology I've always kept my eyes open for chances to do this. I'm a "career-switcher" who came from commercial aviation operations. In the airlines one of the big fears was to get a 'write-up' in your file, either from a teammate, or manager, or customer. But, on the flip side, there was nothing better than to get an "atta-boy" letter from any of those same people. (Within the company the same form could be used: ours was called an "Unusual Occurrence Report", and it could be submitted for good outcomes/performances as well as mishaps/poor performances. I brought this same idea with me when I started in technology. I probably should have sent more of these messages than I have, but still, it's nice to know that you're helping a colleague get some positive attention from their managers. We all know that in the corporate world praise is hard to come by, and it only takes a few minutes to write a email retelling how someone saved the day.
• realjohng 3y ago
  Compliments should be easy. Too much forethought will reduce volume and I would keep it simple to encourage volume. Yes, Quantity over quality.
  • koof 3y ago
    I can agree with the article's framing during performance reviews and periods of heightened scrutiny. But for the day to day, frequent collective appreciation and recognition has mattered a lot to me. "You did well on this grunge work" is a death sentence only if it's contrasted by silence. Maybe I have a blind spot here, but even if the compliment had to stand alone, does the receiver really have so little agency to not reframe or rebut any unintended consequences of the compliment? Does frequency cheapen compliments? Maybe. Does every piece of praise need to be so weighty? I don't think so. "Please" and "thank you" might not mean much but I still like it when people are polite. So too effort can be recognized.
• jbandela1 3y ago
  Not just coworkers. If a customer service has really helped me with my issue, I will ask if I can talk to their manager to let them know how much I appreciated their help today. So far everyone sounded pretty happy about that. I tell the manager that <employee name> really helped me with my issue and made me happy to be a customer of <company name>. The managers also seem pretty happy to hear that and some have mentioned that they will be adding that feedback to the employee’s file.
• 5cott0 3y ago
  It is a fun exercise to think of all the interesting ways the 2nd order effects of these feedback hacks can be weaponized in office politicks.
  • __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    Is this a justification for keeping complimentary feedback to yourself? Seems like a recipe for a continually worsening world. We gotta rise above that shit. If you have something nice to say, you should say it. Any workplace that penalizes you for that, you should leave--maybe with a parting act of sabotage.
    • palata 3y ago
      > Any workplace that penalizes you for that, you should leave I don't think that's necessarily what the parent means. I can totally imagine that the workplace will penalize those who get less praise (because if they don't get spontaneous complimentary feedback (or less), they are probably not as good, right?). What happens for people who are less social, or more isolated (e.g. in a smaller team)? Not saying that we should not compliment coworkers. Just that it is important to think that there are ways to do it wrong ("Let's have a white board collecting the nice feedback everybody gets, so that we all enjoy it! What do you mean this creates a public ranking in the office?").
  • blastro 3y ago
    If you're playing that game, well have fun!
• ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  I always enjoy reading her posts. She must be an outstanding coworker. I have also found that some people are experts at "weaponized compliments." They can give a compliment that is an insult, or an attack. "That's great, how you roughened the edges." when talking about a graphic asset with obvious mistakes. "I always told Bob how great you are, at that." This is the "stolen valor" compliment. It insinuates that you could not have done it without their help. etc. In some cases, it's completely accidental, so we need to think carefully about our compliment.
  • r00fus 3y ago
    Can you provide more details on this? I've always had a fascination with these kinds of subjects (eg, conversational terrorism like "distorted active listening" that politicians use) and the examples online seem to only hint at how a narcissist weaponizes this.
    • ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      Well, in my experience, it's usually around "power dynamics." Some folks always have to be "on top" of every relationship. Compliments are a way to wrest control. For example, if we complement someone on being productive, depending on the wording, it can infer that they are only productive because we say they are, or that we are the only ones willing to "credit" them with their productivity. It can also be used as a way to make ourselves look good, like saying that we are the only ones that noticed a certain pattern or trait, so we are using them as a foil to complement ourselves. I have spent my entire adult life around some of the most manipulative people on Earth, and have developed a certain level of cynicism. I have also learned ways to "counter" these "compliments." For example, in the OP, I might say "Huh. I thought it was obvious I screwed that up." That turns the "complement" onto the other, or "Yeah, but I showed Bob that I was good at that, and that's why I got the promotion."
• bitwize 3y ago
  At $WORK we actually have a "kudos" column in our biweekly retrospectives specifically for shout-outs to coworkers who were particularly helpful. I think it's a good idea.
  • xxs 3y ago
    social media at work, you say. My own bar for great stuff done by others is high, yet at least if I mention anything it's sincere.
• Yhippa 3y ago
  Boggles my mind that for as long as I've worked, I rarely see this in practice. It costs almost nothing to do. I try to do it when I can.
  • johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Look at the responses in this thread and you see why. People are just bundles of nerves these days and can't even take a compliment without over-analyzing the intent behind it. Sometimes a duck is just a duck.
• johndhi 3y ago
  I disagree with the "ask first" suggestion. That's adding friction to the process that makes it less organic and will disincentivize actually doing it. Instead I will give feedback that I know won't hurt the employee I'm praising. There is an art to writing this stuff - usually making it more about yourself and how your problems are easier.
  • sethammons 3y ago
    I let managers know about great interactions with their direct reports. It never occurred to me to ask. I may start doing so. But this reason for not doing it boils my blood: > One person mentioned that they got reprimanded by their manager for getting a spot peer bonus for helping someone on another team. This is a hill I will die on: people at $this_company are a team and helping one another is critical in building healthy teams and organizations. Slack in the schedule must exist and helping each other should fill that slack. Balance of course, but "sorry, I can't help for an hour to unblock you until [checks calendar] next quarter... maybe" type responses hurt organizations more than they know.
    • johndhi 3y ago
      To me, the text you quoted is a separate issue/topic. If a manager is that horrible, then it's time to give negative feedback to THEIR manager. Just like I don't ask before I send a Slack message to someone about a work-related topic, I also don't ask before I send HR-related praise.
    • Zetice 3y ago
      Same, and if you have a manager like that, just recognize that they're not going to be able to do much about it if you do help others. Just kind of ignore them if they suggest doing otherwise.
    • mulmen 3y ago
      The phrase is “I won’t die on that hill”. It references the pointless meat grinders of the Vietnam war. There is no corollary hill worth dying on. If you still want to throw your life away on a meaningless endeavor do not bring me along with you. Talking to management can and will hurt people. Do not make decisions for others without their consent.
• wheelerof4te 3y ago
  Yeah, tell their manager you did said work and demand a raise!
• SilverBirch 3y ago
  One thing I'd add to this: When your coworker does great work - tell them! It's great when people notice you've done something good. Not everything has to be reported to a manager, sometimes just compliment their work or thank them for the effort.
• AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Apologies for not commenting on the content of the article, but just wanted to say it's great to see the use of a gender neutral pronoun at the top of HN this evening.
  • system2 3y ago
    Is there a way to write that title with genders?
    • AlecSchueler 3y ago
      "When your coworker does great, tell his manager."
• sequoia 3y ago
  benefit of starting to give feedback if you're not already: ============================== - a lot risk that giving feedback without asking that hurts the recipient: == - very small 0 ---------------------------- a lot <-impact-> If you are trying to follow this advice but are scared your feedback might "backfire," see the infographic above. The risk is non-zero, but the takeaway here should be "you should start giving feedback" not "feedback might backfire and hurt the person!" The benefits of giving more praise to managers far far outstrips the risk of misplaced praise. So: when in doubt, go for it! Asking can help, I usually send the person my feedback first if I'm unsure & ask if they want to revise it in some way. If they want to refocus on something else, that's fine. The point of it is to express gratitude & help them out.
  • mulmen 3y ago
    Weird take. There’s risk in unsolicited feedback but nearly zero cost in simply asking. Why take the chance?
    • sequoia 3y ago
      A couple reasons: Some people are excessively modest to the point of self-sabotage & will discourage you from providing deserved praise because they see it as boasting. Also, asking is another step and creates more friction in providing positive feedback. Given that this is something people already don't do, if you're trying to encourage the behaviour it should be made as easy as possible. There will be some people who can overcome their reticence to provide positive feedback, but asking them also to have an awkward conversation with the recipient beforehand is one step too many & they'll revert to simply not giving feedback at all. So I disagree that there is nearly zero cost. Some people find these conversations awkward & the cost may be them opting out of this process altogether. And again, this guide over-emphasizes the potential "risk" of providing positive feedback. Your "why take the chance" is precisely the issue I'm talking about–giving praise has been wrongly framed as a "risky" behaviour. It's like saying "you should exercise but be careful not to fall off a cliff! Check for cliffs ahead of time so you don't die!" This is overstating the risk of exercising & putting emphasis in the wrong place.
• foobarian 3y ago
  This is kind of exactly what various peer review processes are for. Managers usually solicit a report's peers' feedback (team members + whoever the report suggests) so it's really nice when there is an unsolicited feedback note. I try to give out at least a few every cycle. I haven't done this for very long or at director level before so I'd love to know if managers with lots of reports end up with certain "frequent fliers" who either get a positive reputation for the extra notes, or tank their reputation by complaining too much. :-)
• palata 3y ago
  I had this team where during the retrospective we would each list good and bad points of the sprint (yes, it was agile, and that part of the whole religious process was the only one that I found useful). After a while, we would all start the sentences with "I am happy because ..." and "I am not so happy because...", and it became customary to have some "happy" points to compensate for the complaints. And there we all started thanking colleagues of the team. "I am happy because Alexia helped me doing this", or simply "I am happy because Bernard is back from holiday". It was a post-it thing, so when coming back from holiday, you would usually get a post-it from everyone. We were not collecting them, counting them or showing them to a manager, it was just internal to the team. We would quickly ignore them and move to the bad points (group them, vote for the 3 most important ones, and define actions to solve them). It just felt nice, and I think it was a nice (small but regular) team building moment. I don't believe in managers: I imagine that they would probably just start counting the reviews, creating some bullshit metrics and ranking the employees. I don't want that. I thank my coworkers when I can to make them feel good, not to make them look good to the manager.
• AceJohnny2 3y ago
  The comments here really demonstrate how this is a culturally-nuanced topic. FWIW, the author comes from a North-American background.
  • camdenlock 3y ago
    Would be interested to hear anecdotes from your culture. In the NA culture, we’ve reached a “kindergarten” sort of stage, where the prime directive is to protect feelings and reduce “harm”. I suspect this may be due the growing influence of academia on the private sector.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  • johnnyanmac 3y ago
    The comments here show they need to get a job that doesn't abuse them. You shouldn't be so scared of a compliment because it will be used against you by your boss or coworkers. You'll never get work done if you spend all your time looking over your back. EDIT: looking through the 2020 thread, it's intersting how different the conversation went, especially wrt stack rankging. It felt like it was focusing more on process at companies. Here, it feels a lot more "personal". More about "well I just want it straight" or "compliments can inadvertently hurt people". Can't call it better or worse objectively, but one feels a bit more surface level than the other.
    • mulmen 3y ago
      The issue here is that you are making a decision for someone else.
      • whats_a_quasar 3y ago
        No, you're not, you're making a decision to talk about your work experience with the other manager. Coworkers can talk to each other about work, what people work on is not secret information
• hindsightbias 3y ago
  Am not one of those people that likes getting noticed too much but have learned praise can be a very soft power when needed. Some people really do put a lot of value on what others think of them and that isn’t a weakness. It can be a great strength to them. Additionally, it’s a soft power. Managers talk. When I’ve intervened in organizational resource actions, there was always one manager/exec who would jump for me. One of those saves became a VP and another achieved the highest technical rank at a Fortune 200. I did it for them but I also did it for the company.
• baby 3y ago
  Ah the manager game
• kdamica 3y ago
  Pro tip for managers: Whenever someone on your team does something good, keep a record of it in a doc. This will make your performance reviews a breeze to write
• Joel_Mckay 3y ago
  Rule #5: "Credit floats up, and blame travels down on the corporate ladder" This is a universal fact with few exceptions Be careful who you manage =)
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• dang 3y ago
  Discussed at the time: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23858662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23858662 - July 2020 (367 comments)
• exabrial 3y ago
  I've also learned, when people that work for you do great, tell your manager.
• mulmen 3y ago
  Asking is CRITICAL. Do not praise me without consent. I have had too many abusive managers in my career to ever desire unsolicited praise. All information is a weapon in the hands of an abuser. I may have helped you complete your task but my manager could interpret that as wasting time not delivering my own task. In other words going over someone’s head (direct to their manager) is an aggressive and rude action. It is never kind or helpful, regardless of intent.
  • dnissley 3y ago
    I feel like not asking is a reasonable default, and creates the culture and world I want to live in. If you really don't want to be praised without consent I will respect those wishes but you'll need to let me know first.
  • johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >All information is a weapon in the hands of an abuser. the only way to stop giving your company information is by not working there. Why does this come off like you can hide the work you do at work? >I may have helped you complete your task but my manager could interpret that as wasting time not delivering my own task. If I feel that worried I simply won't help. Direct them to your manager and make sure it goes down the chain of command before getting a task assigned to you. Boring, and inefficient, yes. But it is maliciously complient to the oppressive atmosphere your manager contributes to.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• bootlegbilly 3y ago
  at my job, it's part of company culture to praise people publicly whenever they're doing great work. it's a great way of knowing you're on the right path.
  • mulmen 3y ago
    Public praise is different than direct management praise. It still shouldn’t be done without consent. Your intention may be good but only effect matters.
• Mizoguchi 3y ago
  As member of an underrepresented group I would say stop over thinking about how you can help us. Just treat us equally, not worse not better. I personally cringe at people trying to make me feel "represented". I get it, you are trying to do something positive for me (and for yourself, let's no pretend it is not about you also) but if you are not careful you may end up annoying me and even doing/saying "racist" stuff, and 9/10 times you will. Like this super nice dude at work invited me to eat spicy food because he thought all Latinos like spicy food like Mexicans, or these guys at a bike shop near my home giving me a discount for being brown so that I could afford biking, despite the fact that I have a little fortune in pro mountain bikes in my garage.
• Eric_WVGG 3y ago
  I do this a lot with various service-people… I've missed a few flights here or there, and then contacted the airline, "hey I missed my flight, Janet Buttersworth helped me fix it up for a flight an hour later, she was super cool and I really appreciate it. Or a cable installer, I'll just ask for the name of their boss so I can put in a good word for them. Quite sure this has been responsible for a few bonuses here and there, pay it forward, etc.
• ChicagoDave 3y ago
  I have always done this since way back in my early days of working. I have never understood people who follow "Art of War" tactics in the job world. I suspect those people feel they have no talent and assume they have to play dirty to succeed.
• tdiff 3y ago
  ... and they will get promoted instead of you. Unless your honesty is noticed.
• ulizzle 3y ago
  There's an obvious political slant here and likely some white savior syndrome. Is racism the reason why managers overlook some high-performers? And why would empty praise from a co-worker help any? What if the manager is part of an "underrepresented group" themselves? Smart people hate being treated like children so you run the risk of offending them. That actually could offend someone for real.
  • mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    It is introduced in the context of anti-racism, but the content actually seems more related to enabling a true meritocracy. It's hard to interpret that as a bad thing.
• tennisprince 3y ago
  I worked at a large bank that attempted to formalise this through a software application they purchased, which allowed you to recognise people on your team. The solution was over-engineered to hell with low engagement. A culture which fostered simple acknowledgements in a stand-up meeting would have been immeasurably more personal and effective.
• alanwreath 3y ago
  It’s funny, I’m a lead in my team and there is this one co-developer on my team that is obviously looking to replace me or be my lead in some capacity. He’s even made jokes about it on multiple occasions. From time to time he compliments me on work I do, but it comes off as if I’m only finally approaching his level of expertise. It’s hard to describe. You could probably say I’m reading too deep into it, but I swear it’s true. I haven’t responded to it, because well, he’s pretty good anyway and he’s fun to work with. Just one of those things I guess.
• rywalker 3y ago
  this seems to me to be too much extra work (to prepare) to deliver a compliment. I'd rather see a culture where compliments/kudos are quick, easy, and often.
• clove 3y ago
  I've never worked in a large organization, so perhaps this is a stupid question, by why wouldn't the manager know that a person under him did a great job? Isn't that a manager's job?