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Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

227 points by MoSattler 4y ago

MoSattler 4y ago
https://archive.ph/R5zp6 https://archive.ph/R5zp6
anovikov 4y ago
It will continue for as long as it will take the world to realise that problem with Russia, is Russia itself, and it needs to be comprehensively fixed.
- footlose_3815 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the problem is a circle of oligarchs, cronies, and ex-KGB turning the government into a sadistic mob state, and their citizens poor as hell.
  - foobarian 4y ago
    This seems pretty similar to descriptions of Russia in 1918 as well. What's up with this place? Maybe it's the cultural influence of the Mongol invasion?
    - esarbe 4y ago
      Yeah, I think the Mongols broke Russia to the yoke of Empire.
      - xpe 4y ago
        Can you say more? Can you think of similar examples where history seems to go the other way?
        esarbe 4y ago
        On prominent ancient example that pops into my head right away is Mesopotamia. The Assyrians were famous for their brutality and their depiction of violence as political propaganda. They were despised for their viciousness. It has been argued that the later Persians and Medes were able to rule with a softer touch because by that time the peoples of Mesopotamia had been "broken into the yoke" - e.g. their local decision making traditions forgotten, decentralized civic structures abandoned.
      - chupasaurus 4y ago
        Except Russia happened 200 years or so later.
        esarbe 4y ago
        Sure. Russia just popped into existence in 1547. It doesn't have anything to do with the peoples that lived in that region before that. Russia as a whole was brought to earth by aliens.
        chupasaurus 4y ago
        You see, Kievan Rus equals Russia is the thing I've heard only from Russian officials. After the Mongol invasion different parts had very different paths in history.
        esarbe 4y ago
        Yes, and the people in the domain of the Czardom of Russia never recovered. One could make a point that the independence of the Cossack tribes contributed its share to the "de-imperialization" of the Dniepr region. A benefit the peoples in the Duchy of Moscow and later the Czardom of Russia never had.
    - xpe 4y ago
      What kind of explanation are you seeking? Are you looking for broad “reasons” why history has unfolded the way it did? What if Russia’s history is not improbable? What if “Western” {democracy + variants of capitalism + colonialism + etc} is actually more of a surprise, probabilistically? Have you read various commentaries that draw associations and even causal links between natural resources and history? For example, extractable resources tend to correspond with countries that get exploited, either by outsiders or (autocratic or oligarchic) insiders. (Opinion: Even democratic capitalist countries don’t share a region’s internal wealth very fairly. But it seems that this approach is better than capture by inefficient and corrupt command-and-control forms of government.) In any case, geopolitical history rarely offers sample sizes large enough to proffer convincing statistical analysis. At best, historians point out convincing theories and evidence of how they play out. P.S. I use curlies and parens for this crowd because it reduces ambiguity. :)
      - foobarian 4y ago
        > What kind of explanation are you seeking? In this case, I am wondering if a culture other than the present would lead to different outcomes, and specifically wondering if there are significant after-effects of the long-ago Mongol domination. Of course it's near impossible to answer this with any scientific rigor, and I don't have much hope for it :) It seems that the communist takeover in 1918 was not an obvious "done deal," and at several points things came very close to not happening that way (and going the way of the German social-democratic setup for example).
        xpe 4y ago
        Ah. I’m not a dedicated Russian scholar, but the big themes to me seem to be: - Relative cultural isolation of Russia, with the exception of the major cities nearer to Europe. I’d speculate this is partially due to few international trade routes. - A brutally tough existence, largely due to the climate, economic systems, and over-investment in war. - No transformational economic gains from territorial gains. The US Colonies, later states, had huge land and resources to colonize and plunder. This created new centers of power and upended Britain’s colonial grip. - Systemic repression. - Few alternative centers of power besides the state. Religion plays less of a role in Russian throughout history compared to the West, is this fair? - High levels of distrust for decades if not centuries, leading to leaders capitalizing on fear. - Low probability that an aspirational leader could shake the country free of its 20th century roots. No chance that an exiled leader could flee, build a reputation, and return later to transform the country. I know relativity little about the Mongol influence. What suggests that it might be lasting and enduring? P.S. This answer would probably be better, more comprehensive, and possibly confidently wrong if aided by a chatty AI.
    - imbnwa 4y ago
      >Maybe it's the cultural influence of the Mongol invasion? What exactly are you suggesting?
    - noirscape 4y ago
      Little to do with culture, everything to do with infrastructure, geography and for the 20th century and onwards messy politics. Russias geography is... rather paradoxical. It's a country with pretty much some of the biggest landmass on earth, but very few of that landmass has been exploitable for resources. For most of history this has largely been due to its climate being rather hostile to humans - Russias more navigable areas are up north, which isn't great if you want to use it for things like farmland and other basic needs. The southern part of the country is on the other hand rather mountainous, which is also hard to grow resources on. All of that has resulted in a country where most people congregate in big cities and an infrastructure that outside of those cities is just... barely existent. The result is that anyone wanting to lead Russia will invariably end up gravitating towards concentrated leadership; the individual cities where most Russian citizens live don't have the resources around them to entirely sustain themselves independently, so all of them need to stay together. Combine that with a poor infrastructure and anyone looking for a power grab in the capital has an easy opportunity to do so if a vacuum ever arises[0]. [0]: The tsar was basically a monarch, which historically has been in general how countries operate. Lenin was specifically send to Russia by the Germans to attempt and disrupt the Russian front during WW1 (and Stalin can be summarized as "Lenin but worse"). The between leaders after Stalin were trying to uphold the same beliefs as him. Putin's powergrab is the result of him taking advantage of the fact that Yeltsin screwed up the de-sovietization process and just dumped Russia into anarcho-capitalism overnight (there was basically no transition process between the Soviet model and neoliberalism, which resulted in anarcho-capitalism).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- amelius 4y ago
  Russia -> some people in Russia
  - willeh 4y ago
    I don't mean to be rude but certain aspects of Russian Culture make authoritarian rule inevitable. Some of has to do with Orthodox religious values and some of it has to do with perceived misrule of the country in times where things were more free.
  - WinstonSmith84 4y ago
    some people in Russia -> many people in Russia Very few people disagree with the current state of affairs, it's "1984" with people just believing in whatever is being told to them. I'm saying this cause I've some distant families there, it's absolutely surreal. Either way, if you don't fall in line, you better leave the country (try to), or at best remain very, very quiet and keep your thoughts for yourself.
  - esarbe 4y ago
    Putin has had high approval ratings for years. Not only because they clamped down on any opposition, but also because Russians simply don't care. This is not just a "Putin" problem.
    - xpe 4y ago
      > because Russians simply don’t care First, this is anything but simple. Second, many Russians do care, but it is rational to stay quiet. Third, your comment is one starting point for discussion but certainly not the end. Some follow up questions: A. What would it take for more Russians to band together to oust Putin? Russians know the brutality of oppression and the long arm of state surveillance. B. I take your point that this is not just a Putin problem. What happens after? - The oligarchs have strong incentives to carry on similarly. They get so rich that they can buy loyalty “down the chain”. It becomes an issue of self interest to be corrupt, because it gets you a better quality of life. Sadly, a country with a high quality of life would be less susceptible. - There will be some kind of selection process post Putin. It is unclear who might have the cunning, blackmail ability, and control of the military and intelligence forces. These levers make popular unrest almost futile.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  Sounds like racism but ok
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- martincmartin 4y ago
  The barrier to outsiders invading and fixing it is nuclear weapons. If the west's troops invaded Russian, it's quite possible Russia would launch nukes. Even without that, the West doesn't want to put boots on the ground in Russia, fearing it will end up like Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. The barrier to Russians forming a coup is state repression. The FSB is good at routing out any coup before it can get far. Unless the upper ranks of the military fear for their lives under Putin, their calculus is that they're better off with the status quo than a coup.
  - anovikov 4y ago
    It only depends on political will. Airtight isolation will be enough to solve Russia, let's say. On the level that "whoever has any diplomatic or trade relationship with Russia or does not accept the same policy, can't trade with anyone in the West", this policy will take days to "infect" entire world. Not being able to trade they will quickly descend to starvation, rampant disease and death. Then we can take refugees. Also, well, if we were serious about it, we could throw in enough resources to defeat them like we did it with Soviet Union. Except not recognise any successor states this time: everyone out, with hands up, and that's it.
    - martincmartin 4y ago
      Doesn't work with North Korea, Venezuela or lots of other dictatorships around the world. Regime change is hard. Creating a functioning, not corrupt state in the aftermath is harder.
      - anovikov 4y ago
        Regime change is hard because maintaining any coherent regime needs will and capacity of the people. In case of Russia of course, it will not be the case. This is why Russia needs to be eradicated, not fixed. Population removed and replanted in many countries, so kids put into foreign schools, so language goes extinct in the next generation and whole "Russianness" thing ceases to exist.
    - 4y ago
- iavael 4y ago
  So you think some kind of final solution is necessary?
jimbob45 4y ago
Any Russians on here to explain why dissenters wouldn’t work on leaving the country rather than token demonstrations like this?
- gleenn 4y ago
  The article says he was investigated only after his daughter drew a picture in class. So it probably wasn't particularly planned. And then he fled to Belarus once he got wind of the charges.
  - jimbob45 4y ago
    Is vehemently disowning the art piece not enough to avoid jail or is it to the point where they’re jailing people for any excuse at all?
    - foobarian 4y ago
      What usually happens in cases like this, is you look closer, and it turns out there was a neighbor who had wanted to build a shed on the property line, and the guy told him off, and the neighbor happens to be a member of the CP...
    - dsabanin 4y ago
      The point is to spread fear of any action or even thought against the regime.
    - eitland 4y ago
      This is Russia. No reason is actually needed. They'll take care of making an excuse. Last year I saw a video of a woman getting rounded up while she was being interviewed and expressing her belief in the authorities. She was just standing with a camera team next to a demonstration. Wrong place at the wrong time I think.
      - formerly_proven 4y ago
        Oh I think I saw the same clip… one of those street interviews and a woman walks up and starts going like “You won’t dare showing this but I tell you I and many others support our preside-“ and gets nabbed by Russian police.
VincentEvans 4y ago
To an observer not closely following the extraordinary cycle of internal repressions taking place in Russia following its invasion of Ukraine - the news coming out of there, such as this one - may appear sensationalized. Surely this level of judicial evil is overstated! It’s not. The show trials over alleged enemies of the state reminiscent of Stalin are becoming routine. Regular people receiving sentences of 7 years in colonies for anti-war posts or statements - are common. At the same time - convicted murderers are freed to volunteer to fight against Ukraine and are given state honors, with laws being written threatening severe punishment for reporting the details of their past.
- andersentobias 4y ago
  Sources?
  - bazoom42 4y ago
    Is this question in good faith? Wagner recruiting from prisons have been widely reported.
  - eitland 4y ago
    Do you read Russian?
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      You can read the Moscow Times, an English language newspaper. They relocated to Amsterdam iirc and is owned by Derk Sauer who was booted out of Russia. He also writes interesting opinion pieces in het Parool about the re Stalinisation of Russia. Fascinating stuff. Ofcourse I have no idea if the majority of Russians really care- Stalin was very popular.
  - _visgean 4y ago
    > Regular people receiving sentences of 7 years in colonies for anti-war posts or statements well apart from the from the article on which you are commenitng, you can read this https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/russia-student-blogger-sentenced-to-long-imprisonment-in-brutal-repression-of-anti-war-dissent/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/russia-studen... > At the same time - convicted murderers are freed to volunteer to fight against Ukraine and are given state honors e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/world/europe/wagner-fighters-burial-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/world/europe/wagner-fight...
imwillofficial 4y ago
[flagged]
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  That’s a curt reply to a seemingly complex issue.
  - piva00 4y ago
    Pretty usual for this topic, it happens here on HN, on reddit and probably any place with discussions on the internet. It seems there's a cohort of people that actively disengage from any news about Russia during this war of aggression using the "propaganda" cop-out, if you press them on why there will be all sorts of justifications of not believing in mainstream media, etc., the usual post-truth bullshit.
    - avgcorrection 4y ago
      To be honest I have a similar attitude in that I don’t engage much with those kinds of news. But that also means that I can’t just blurt out (or indirectly claim) that something is a propagandistic falsehood. Because I don’t know.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    There’s always astroturfers for Russia on social media. The Russians have people who sow FUD and some people are attracted to the message and carry it. Most commonly it’s whataboutism. It became more prevalent circa 2008.
esarbe 4y ago
Russia is slipping into totalitarianism more and more very day. But this did not happen over night; Putin and his cronies have been working towards this goal for more than 15 years now and the attack on Ukraine simply gave them all the excuses they needed to clamp down on the last dissenters. So painful
- lolinder 4y ago
  Russia never really got out of totalitarianism. They've had two brief windows where they looked like they might (post-revolution and post-collapse), but those were really just windows of pseudo-anarchy while the next totalitarian regime consolidated power.
  - esarbe 4y ago
    I guess there's some truth to that. What's coming off now was just a pretense.
hippich 4y ago
Just to note, same happens in Belarus. This is one of the reason we can't travel there to see our grand parents - risk of being put in to prison and kids taken away is just to high to accept.
- cainxinth 4y ago
  Belarus is a Russian puppet-state under Lukashenko.
  - varjag 4y ago
    The authoritarianism in Belarus is entirely domestic in origin and predates the modern Russian one.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      That's true but it still is a Russian puppet state at present.
      - varjag 4y ago
        It's fluid. In the way late period fascist Italy could be called puppet state of Nazi Germany perhaps. But Belarusian dictator has his own distinct agenda and pursues it despite very limited choices which "puppet state" kinda glosses over.
        tomjakubowski 4y ago
        Somewhere I could read more about Lukashenko's agenda?
        varjag 4y ago
        As a .by native I never needed to go through any definitive source. But you often encounter useful nuggets in e.g. ISW reports and general long reads on situation with the Russian invasion. Naturally troubles in Belarus now pale to the savagery committed in Ukraine daily so there hasn't been much in terms of focused studies. But it's not like Lukashenka runs some policy think tank anyway. He mostly wings it, often demonstrating an uncanny political sense for a self projected image of a simpleton. Still he certainly blew it big time in 2022. After participating in a breezy (now forgotten) invasion in Kazakhstan he went all in with Putin's next adventure. Now his ambitions of great commander appear to be back on ice and the focus is on survival. And while his own people remain his #1 enemy he is awake to the threat of complete Russian take over as well.
fauxpause_ 4y ago
Wagner leader Prigozhin made a statement against this one as part of his internal politics war. So in case people are questioning whether this is just western propaganda, no, it appears to be the same story running around domestically, with many ultra nationalists supporting it.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  source me plz
  - fauxpause_ 4y ago
    https://t.me/concordgroup_official/658 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/658 Covered by ISW: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-29-2023 https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offens... > Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin seized on the recent story of the sentencing of a Tula Oblast father for his 12-year-old daughter’s antiwar drawing to promote the Wagner Group’s reputation and ameliorate his own personal image. Prigozhin’s press service posted a letter on March 28 signed by Prigozhin, Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin, and Wagner-affiliated director of the “Liga” veteran's organization Andrey Troshev addressed to Tula Oblast prosecutor Alexander Gritsaenko stating that the signatories consider Gritsaenko’s issuance of a two-year prison sentence to Aleksey Moskalev unfair.[7] Moskalev was charged with “discrediting the armed forces” after his 12-year-old daughter Masha drew an antiwar picture with a Ukrainian flag in her school art class in April 2022.[8] Masha was taken into state custody and now lives in a juvenile shelter, and Moskalev fled house arrest the night before his sentencing and was sentenced to two years in prison in absentia.[9] Prigozhin’s letter suggests that Tula Oblast check the legality of Gritsaenko’s sentencing and recommends that Wagner-affiliated lawyers participate in the case on Moskalev’s side, noting that it is tragic that both Masha and children of dead Wagner fighters end up in orphanages.[10] Prigozhin’s response to Moskalev’s sentencing is particularly ironic considering that Prigozhin was initially one of the biggest and loudest supporters of the law on punishing those who ”discredit” Russian forces.[11] It is therefore likely that Prigozhin seized on the discourse surrounding Moskalev to further his own reputation and advocate for the Wagner Group, especially by choosing to highlight the plight of orphans of Wagner fighters who die in Ukraine.[12] Prigozhin may seek to maintain his own domestic relevance by continuing to closely involve himself in such developing stories, especially by affiliating his newest campaign for relevance with Utkin and Troshev—two well-established and notorious Wagner-affiliated personalities. The letter attempts to portray Wagner's leadership as a united front against elements of the Russian bureaucracy.[13]
ourmandave 4y ago
They've already yoinked hundreds of Ukraine children from families, so why not? Embrace the fuckery and continue the war crimes on your own citizens.
- iso1631 4y ago
  It seems that support for Ukraine is one aspect that crosses demographics here in the UK, Left and Right, Young and Old, Leave and Remain, all fully oppose Russia and broadly support the efforts the UK and the west in general have done. It seems to be that a significant number of people in America seem to support the Russian narrative.
  - varjag 4y ago
    Selling Russia as the city on a hill to much of American public both on the right and on the left was tremendously successful info op.
    - red-iron-pine 4y ago
      50 years ago the USSR had to get support from the left for ideological reasons, but now there is no limitation on who they support -- and they've been incredibly effective at influencing the US Right Wing. There was a time when the American left supported Moscow -- when they were the USSR, and represented a real communist alternative to a US government that still openly sanctioned segregation and union busting. Now their leftwing roots are mostly tankies and they have no real presence in US politics. The 20-something 'woke' crowd ain't listening to talking points from Chomsky. Meanwhile we have pictures of small redheaded Russian ladies talking to the NRA and making sure that the NRA gets money to give to... guess who? There are members of Congress who openly support Q-anon, which is almost certainly a foreign intelligence operation.
  - dd36 4y ago
    That’s what their media is telling them.
    - 4y ago
okasaki 4y ago
[flagged]
- Dobbs 4y ago
  In neither the US nor UK would your children be taken away if you protested the Iraqi war.
- Cenk 4y ago
  I seriously doubt you can find me a case of a parent in the UK being sentences to two years in prison because their child drew a pro-ISIS drawing at school.
- causi 4y ago
  Perhaps in the UK, but writing "Glory to ISIS" is perfectly legal in the US.
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    It's not a crime in itself to say "Glory to ISIS!" but if you say it publicly, it will put you on the radar of law enforcement agencies like the FBI who will entrap you and then use your "Glory to ISIS!" post as evidence when they charge you with providing material support to terrorists. You can find plenty of indictment PDFs on justice.gov that reference "social media posts in support of ISIS."
    - causi 4y ago
      You can find plenty of indictment PDFs on justice.gov that reference "social media posts in support of ISIS." Are there any that only reference social media posts in support of ISIS? You could use them as supporting evidence of a crime but they are not a crime in and of themselves.
      - TechBro8615 4y ago
        Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying and clarified that (and then edited it again to restore the quote you were replying to, lol). It's not a crime in itself, but it puts you on the radar to be entrapped and later charged with a crime.
skee8383 4y ago
[flagged]
potatototoo99 4y ago
Is a family in the US that publicly supports Al Qaeda or ISIS not being threatened with the same?
- khochesh_kushat 4y ago
  No, and even if they were, that wouldn't make taking people's children away from them as punishment for thought crimes a reasonable policy.
  - potatototoo99 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - khochesh_kushat 4y ago
      Listen you're not going to convince me that removing the children from anyone who disagrees with the party line is good policy, no matter where it happens, although I appreciate your apparent enthusiasm for it.
- simion314 4y ago
  Fuck dude, Ukraine is not a terrorist organization, at least compared with Ruzzia where you had state people going around the world and assassinating civilians with various possions. Too bad West is too coward to name Putin, his pary and Ruzzia a terrorist state and apply the laws for Ruzzia as they are doing for other terrorist organizations.
- VincentEvans 4y ago
  I doubt this argument is made in good faith. Do you think it’s reasonable to equate Ukraine with ISIS or Al Qaeda and a child drawing a painting depicting a mother and a child with the text “stop war” as supporting ISIS or Al Qaeda?
livinginfear 4y ago
[flagged]
- tokai 4y ago
  Try following along instead of wrongly claiming scepticism towards something that is well documented.
  - livinginfear 4y ago
    Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? Aren't there enough historic examples of how the American media establishment have been used to further American foreign policy objectives? I've always thought of myself as left-wing. I came of age in the 'War on Terror', and recall the collective skepticism of the American establishment. I remember the attitude of left-wing intellectuals like Chomsky, and the public reaction to what many other young people like myself thought was a war fought not for justice, but for American foreign policy interests. I don't see this kind of skepticism anymore.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      > Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? Skepticism is good, but has to be grounded in something plausible otherwise it isn't as much evidence of critical thinking, but rather of something else. > Aren't there enough historic examples of how the American media establishment have been used to further American foreign policy objectives? The Economist is British.
    - dralley 4y ago
      >Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? No, you're being asked to at least attempt to find out the truth rather than dismiss all reporting as western propaganda. What would you accept as the truth? Would you accept Ukrainian reporting? Here's a Ukrainian documentary about two children who were essentially kidnapped and managed to escape with the help of an aid group in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyWA9ZK4Qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyWA9ZK4Qs TL;DR they were in occupied territory and their school principle set up a "2 week study trip" to Crimea. After the 2 weeks were up they were not released and were instead forcibly enrolled in new boarding schools. Here's another interview with kids who were eventually released: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/11zpeuy/children_that_were_kidnapped_from_kherson_were/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/11zpeuy/children_t... There are posts on social media of Russians who are "adopting" children from occupied territory https://mobile.twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1642893921024987136 https://mobile.twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1642893921024...
kybernetyk 4y ago
Same happens with Polish kids in Norway.
- tromp 4y ago
  citation needed
  - sgt 4y ago
    I've heard of that and I tried to google it but it's nearly impossible to find anything on it on Google anymore. Something about Child Protection in Norway taking away children if the parent was fatigued etc.
jackmott42 4y ago
The same is happening in Texas, where your kid can be taken away without trial if someone reports that they may be trans.
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jackmott42 4y ago
    It is right here: https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/O-MastersJaime202202221358.pdf https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/O-MastersJaime2022... and when CPS is told about potential abuse they can take your kids away, and this is not theoretical, it has happened.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > when CPS is told about potential abuse they can take your kids away, and this is not theoretical, it has happened No, they cannot and no they have not. It was put on hold by the courts, and families were investigated without children being seized [1]. Together with the mass resignations at Texas’ CPS [2], it’s a potent example of the difference between a nation with the rule of law and an active civil society willing to make sacrifices and one without. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087991657/families-in-texas-with-transgender-children-say-theyre-under-attack https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087991657/families-in-texas-... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/11/texas-trans-child-abuse-investigations/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/11/texas-trans-child-ab...
    - TechBro8615 4y ago
      In addition to what JumpCrisscross explained to you, that document does not support your original claim that someone telling CPS your kid is trans leads to CPS taking your kid away. It says that it's illegal for you to facilitate or subject your kid to permanent, irreversible surgery on their genitalia. I suspect if you let your 14 year old kid get a tattoo, CPS would have questions. It seems reasonable they should also have questions if you're encouraging them to get irreversible genital surgery.
jawilson2 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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- throwaway123929 4y ago
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  - formerly_proven 4y ago
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- stronglikedan 4y ago
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  - Karawebnetwork 4y ago
    Major medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, have published policy statements and guidelines on how to provide age-appropriate gender-affirming care. All of those medical societies find such care to be evidence-based and medically necessary.
    - sonotathrowaway 4y ago
      This is all true, but the idea is that you’re supposed to place your political ideology above the evidence based plans of doctors.
    - geoduck14 4y ago
      The AAP says that 0.7 percent of teens [0] identify as transgender. Is that right? That sounds really low given all of the attention this topic is getting. [0] https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2018/aap-policy-statement-urges-support-and-care-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents/ https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2018/aap-...
ck2 4y ago
Go on, tell me this doesn't have a nuclear weapon used to "salt" Ukraine crops when he's on his final deathbed. There are no checks and balances, everyone is just going to do what they are told and that will be the end of that. The surge in the price of all wheat products in the US is in part due to Ukraine crops being unavailable, they are important to the entire world.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
robswc 4y ago
Nothing new. Family from Eastern Europe had to deal with this bs with communism. It was always the fear of neighbors “ratting you out” made everyone paranoid. You had to be on board or risked being “taken away.”
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Indeed. The fear was sometimes voiced as being afraid of people 'taking names' with future consequences.
- lajosbacs 4y ago
  And it takes generations to forget. I spent only my infancy under communism, but through my parents this is ingrained in me. I am always very careful to voice my opinion and I care too much about what unknown ppl would think about me. Criminal regime
- arvigeus 4y ago
  Not just “rattling out”, often you had a quota as well.
scottLobster 4y ago
Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0
- codedokode 4y ago
  That's how majority of the world lives though.
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    Yeah, and I wouldn't want to live in the majority of the world. Judging by immigration patterns, most people who live in the majority of the world don't want to either. It's one reason Russia's having issues with the T-14 tank, not only are a lot of its parts imported from the West, but anyone in Russia smart enough to help build a tank has almost certainly left for the West where they can have a better standard of living. Democracies have decisively defeated dictatorships and oligarchies at every turn for the last century, the fact that dictatorships remain as a lesser category of nation is proof only that human potential has yet to be fully realized.
    - codedokode 4y ago
      People who actually develop tanks usually have restriction for going abroad for 5 or more years even after they leave they job because they know classified information. So I don't think that they left the country.
      - scottLobster 4y ago
        Perhaps for those who start the job. But if you're a Moscow State University engineering graduate, why would you even start when there are better available living situations? Sure maybe some stick around for familial/patriotic reasons, but most are going to leave for greener pastures.
medo-bear 4y ago
this is absolutely terrible. this is a sure way for russia to create a modern version of the stolen generation [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations
- jnsaff2 4y ago
  Sure is terrible, just weird that russians themselves just take it and don't stand up.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    um they did, in 1917, like no one else, ever. too bad the whole thing took a wrong turn a decade later
    - jnsaff2 4y ago
      So they tried once a century ago, then gave up? How is this different from what I was asking? Nothing is done, violence is tolerated and glorified at home and exported to neighbors too.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    There have been many internal reform attempts in Russia, almost universally the leaders of each have been assassinated or imprisoned. It’s a very dangerous place to protest, especially now that they’ve invaded Ukraine and legalized mobilization.
    - jnsaff2 4y ago
      I have a suspicion that the siloviki insiders are okay with the system as is. Plenty of stealing to be done at all levels. The others still take it without doing anything about it.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    Good luck standing up against million of well armed, well paid and well trained national guards.
331c8c71 4y ago
I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/transport safety regulations Apparently he's also not paying utilities/taxes and have no legal sources of income -- he's growing and selling exotic animals but that's off the books. Feel sorry for the kid the most...
- SXX 4y ago
  Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago? Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month. Also do you reallt think it's a good idea to pay taxes in Russia at this moment? All these taxes gonna be used to kill children in Ukraine.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    > Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago To the extent it might have influenced the ruling... > Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month. 50% would be an overstatement. It's normally deducted directly by the employer regardless of the salary so you don't see that money to start with (and typically negotiate/agree on your net salary). People who don't pay utilities eventually get disconnected from electricity/gas etc.
    - iavael 4y ago
      > It's normally deducted directly by the employer regardless of the salary That's why paying cash "in envelope" is a common practice in SMB. "Grey salary" as it's called there: minimal wage level part is payed officially, rest is not. > People who don't pay utilities eventually get disconnected from electricity/gas etc. That's more of exception than a rule. Huge debts for utilities (for 1 year of consumption or even more) are quite common. As also practice of "shame lists" in apartment lobbies with apartment numbers and sums of debt.
SXX 4y ago
As Russian who left the country on February 25th 2022 I can strongly recommend following substack for those who curios about economical and political situation inside the country: https://ironcurtain.substack.com/ https://ironcurtain.substack.com/ Author is Sergey Aleksashenko who is economist and former government official. He now live in US and actively support Ukraine, but he have really neutral and realistic view on events.
- IngvarLynn 4y ago
  The very first article I clicked is "analysis" of Levada polls. This is pure garbage. In the land where all sorts of police get involved over child's drawing the phone poll has value just above zero. I am yet to see any former kremlin official which public activity could not be classified as whitewashing.
Proven 4y ago
[dead]
kleiba 4y ago
Pro-russion forces will claim this report is mere propaganda - how to proof it's not?
- lolinder 4y ago
  The burden of proof is on the country that started an unprovoked, brutal war of aggression that has thrown away the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in just over a year and still insists on not referring to it as a war. If you don't want people to believe that your country is a brutal oppressive authoritarian regime, you start by not acting like one, not by crying foul when people tell stories about your brutal oppressive authoritarian habits.
- d23 4y ago
  They'd love nothing more than for you to believe there is no proof or evidence for anything -- no truth for you to discern. Just struggles in the will to power.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
There are international organizations that try to protect children's rights. For example, Robert Kennedy, who might a presidential run as a democrat in the next election is involved in the Children's Health Defence https://childrenshealthdefense.org/ https://childrenshealthdefense.org/
d23 4y ago
How depressing it must be to have lived through the collapse of the soviet union, realize the magnitude of lies, see the hope of a new Russia, and then have to go through this.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  > realize the magnitude of lies Most of those born in USSR did not go through that realization. I am from KZ and it's the same here, if a bit more toned down (at least you don't see open praise for Stalin, probably because we were one of the main destinations for many deportations initiated by him: I grew up among many ethnic Germans and Chechens and such). It's one of the main reasons for what's been happening since the beginning of 2022, IMHO.
- shashurup 4y ago
  To be honest, after the collapse I was to busy making ends meet. Later, surprisingly, the sad realization was the fact that the western propaganda was in no way better than the soviet - the soviet one was too straightforward and it was easy to spot what was omitted, what was exaggerated etc. I considered myself old and cynical but the level of hypocrisy recently is astonishingly, absolutely mind blowing.
- gdy 4y ago
  "How depressing it must be to have lived through the collapse of the soviet union" Unless you were among millions who simply died in the 'democratic' 90s [0]. "Mortality increased substantially after the economic crisis in 1998, with life expectancy falling to 58.9 years among men and 71.8 years among women by 2001. Most of these fluctuations were due to changes in mortality from vascular disease and violent deaths (mainly suicides, homicides, unintentional poisoning, and traffic incidents) among young and middle aged adults. Trends were similar in all parts of Russia. An extra 2.5-3 million Russian adults died in middle age in the period 1992-2001 than would have been expected based on 1991 mortality." And what was depressing was seeing the magnitude of Western lies and the disillusionment that followed. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC259165/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC259165/
foverzar 4y ago
Ow wow, I expected this one would become like "FSB arrests children for blowing up buildings in Minecraft" as soon as the first details had started to surface, but never would have guessed it would hit HN. PsyOps is strong, I see a few other people here bringing them up and getting mass downvoted.
- orwin 4y ago
  This one is on Russia telegram groups too, I don't think it's false (the details aren't the same, but the story is basically 'parent indoctrinated children should be given back to Russia' if Google translate is right)
mahoro 4y ago
They took my daughter to the orphanage luckily for two days because of this reason (I'm a single parent).

227 points by MoSattler 4y ago

https://archive.ph/R5zp6 https://archive.ph/R5zp6

It will continue for as long as it will take the world to realise that problem with Russia, is Russia itself, and it needs to be comprehensively fixed.

footlose_3815 4y ago
I'm pretty sure the problem is a circle of oligarchs, cronies, and ex-KGB turning the government into a sadistic mob state, and their citizens poor as hell.
- foobarian 4y ago
  This seems pretty similar to descriptions of Russia in 1918 as well. What's up with this place? Maybe it's the cultural influence of the Mongol invasion?
  - esarbe 4y ago
    Yeah, I think the Mongols broke Russia to the yoke of Empire.
    - xpe 4y ago
      Can you say more? Can you think of similar examples where history seems to go the other way?
      - esarbe 4y ago
        On prominent ancient example that pops into my head right away is Mesopotamia. The Assyrians were famous for their brutality and their depiction of violence as political propaganda. They were despised for their viciousness. It has been argued that the later Persians and Medes were able to rule with a softer touch because by that time the peoples of Mesopotamia had been "broken into the yoke" - e.g. their local decision making traditions forgotten, decentralized civic structures abandoned.
    - chupasaurus 4y ago
      Except Russia happened 200 years or so later.
      - esarbe 4y ago
        Sure. Russia just popped into existence in 1547. It doesn't have anything to do with the peoples that lived in that region before that. Russia as a whole was brought to earth by aliens.
        chupasaurus 4y ago
        You see, Kievan Rus equals Russia is the thing I've heard only from Russian officials. After the Mongol invasion different parts had very different paths in history.
        esarbe 4y ago
        Yes, and the people in the domain of the Czardom of Russia never recovered. One could make a point that the independence of the Cossack tribes contributed its share to the "de-imperialization" of the Dniepr region. A benefit the peoples in the Duchy of Moscow and later the Czardom of Russia never had.
  - xpe 4y ago
    What kind of explanation are you seeking? Are you looking for broad “reasons” why history has unfolded the way it did? What if Russia’s history is not improbable? What if “Western” {democracy + variants of capitalism + colonialism + etc} is actually more of a surprise, probabilistically? Have you read various commentaries that draw associations and even causal links between natural resources and history? For example, extractable resources tend to correspond with countries that get exploited, either by outsiders or (autocratic or oligarchic) insiders. (Opinion: Even democratic capitalist countries don’t share a region’s internal wealth very fairly. But it seems that this approach is better than capture by inefficient and corrupt command-and-control forms of government.) In any case, geopolitical history rarely offers sample sizes large enough to proffer convincing statistical analysis. At best, historians point out convincing theories and evidence of how they play out. P.S. I use curlies and parens for this crowd because it reduces ambiguity. :)
    - foobarian 4y ago
      > What kind of explanation are you seeking? In this case, I am wondering if a culture other than the present would lead to different outcomes, and specifically wondering if there are significant after-effects of the long-ago Mongol domination. Of course it's near impossible to answer this with any scientific rigor, and I don't have much hope for it :) It seems that the communist takeover in 1918 was not an obvious "done deal," and at several points things came very close to not happening that way (and going the way of the German social-democratic setup for example).
      - xpe 4y ago
        Ah. I’m not a dedicated Russian scholar, but the big themes to me seem to be: - Relative cultural isolation of Russia, with the exception of the major cities nearer to Europe. I’d speculate this is partially due to few international trade routes. - A brutally tough existence, largely due to the climate, economic systems, and over-investment in war. - No transformational economic gains from territorial gains. The US Colonies, later states, had huge land and resources to colonize and plunder. This created new centers of power and upended Britain’s colonial grip. - Systemic repression. - Few alternative centers of power besides the state. Religion plays less of a role in Russian throughout history compared to the West, is this fair? - High levels of distrust for decades if not centuries, leading to leaders capitalizing on fear. - Low probability that an aspirational leader could shake the country free of its 20th century roots. No chance that an exiled leader could flee, build a reputation, and return later to transform the country. I know relativity little about the Mongol influence. What suggests that it might be lasting and enduring? P.S. This answer would probably be better, more comprehensive, and possibly confidently wrong if aided by a chatty AI.
  - imbnwa 4y ago
    >Maybe it's the cultural influence of the Mongol invasion? What exactly are you suggesting?
  - noirscape 4y ago
    Little to do with culture, everything to do with infrastructure, geography and for the 20th century and onwards messy politics. Russias geography is... rather paradoxical. It's a country with pretty much some of the biggest landmass on earth, but very few of that landmass has been exploitable for resources. For most of history this has largely been due to its climate being rather hostile to humans - Russias more navigable areas are up north, which isn't great if you want to use it for things like farmland and other basic needs. The southern part of the country is on the other hand rather mountainous, which is also hard to grow resources on. All of that has resulted in a country where most people congregate in big cities and an infrastructure that outside of those cities is just... barely existent. The result is that anyone wanting to lead Russia will invariably end up gravitating towards concentrated leadership; the individual cities where most Russian citizens live don't have the resources around them to entirely sustain themselves independently, so all of them need to stay together. Combine that with a poor infrastructure and anyone looking for a power grab in the capital has an easy opportunity to do so if a vacuum ever arises[0]. [0]: The tsar was basically a monarch, which historically has been in general how countries operate. Lenin was specifically send to Russia by the Germans to attempt and disrupt the Russian front during WW1 (and Stalin can be summarized as "Lenin but worse"). The between leaders after Stalin were trying to uphold the same beliefs as him. Putin's powergrab is the result of him taking advantage of the fact that Yeltsin screwed up the de-sovietization process and just dumped Russia into anarcho-capitalism overnight (there was basically no transition process between the Soviet model and neoliberalism, which resulted in anarcho-capitalism).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
amelius 4y ago
Russia -> some people in Russia
- willeh 4y ago
  I don't mean to be rude but certain aspects of Russian Culture make authoritarian rule inevitable. Some of has to do with Orthodox religious values and some of it has to do with perceived misrule of the country in times where things were more free.
- WinstonSmith84 4y ago
  some people in Russia -> many people in Russia Very few people disagree with the current state of affairs, it's "1984" with people just believing in whatever is being told to them. I'm saying this cause I've some distant families there, it's absolutely surreal. Either way, if you don't fall in line, you better leave the country (try to), or at best remain very, very quiet and keep your thoughts for yourself.
- esarbe 4y ago
  Putin has had high approval ratings for years. Not only because they clamped down on any opposition, but also because Russians simply don't care. This is not just a "Putin" problem.
  - xpe 4y ago
    > because Russians simply don’t care First, this is anything but simple. Second, many Russians do care, but it is rational to stay quiet. Third, your comment is one starting point for discussion but certainly not the end. Some follow up questions: A. What would it take for more Russians to band together to oust Putin? Russians know the brutality of oppression and the long arm of state surveillance. B. I take your point that this is not just a Putin problem. What happens after? - The oligarchs have strong incentives to carry on similarly. They get so rich that they can buy loyalty “down the chain”. It becomes an issue of self interest to be corrupt, because it gets you a better quality of life. Sadly, a country with a high quality of life would be less susceptible. - There will be some kind of selection process post Putin. It is unclear who might have the cunning, blackmail ability, and control of the military and intelligence forces. These levers make popular unrest almost futile.
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
Sounds like racism but ok
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
martincmartin 4y ago
The barrier to outsiders invading and fixing it is nuclear weapons. If the west's troops invaded Russian, it's quite possible Russia would launch nukes. Even without that, the West doesn't want to put boots on the ground in Russia, fearing it will end up like Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. The barrier to Russians forming a coup is state repression. The FSB is good at routing out any coup before it can get far. Unless the upper ranks of the military fear for their lives under Putin, their calculus is that they're better off with the status quo than a coup.
- anovikov 4y ago
  It only depends on political will. Airtight isolation will be enough to solve Russia, let's say. On the level that "whoever has any diplomatic or trade relationship with Russia or does not accept the same policy, can't trade with anyone in the West", this policy will take days to "infect" entire world. Not being able to trade they will quickly descend to starvation, rampant disease and death. Then we can take refugees. Also, well, if we were serious about it, we could throw in enough resources to defeat them like we did it with Soviet Union. Except not recognise any successor states this time: everyone out, with hands up, and that's it.
  - martincmartin 4y ago
    Doesn't work with North Korea, Venezuela or lots of other dictatorships around the world. Regime change is hard. Creating a functioning, not corrupt state in the aftermath is harder.
    - anovikov 4y ago
      Regime change is hard because maintaining any coherent regime needs will and capacity of the people. In case of Russia of course, it will not be the case. This is why Russia needs to be eradicated, not fixed. Population removed and replanted in many countries, so kids put into foreign schools, so language goes extinct in the next generation and whole "Russianness" thing ceases to exist.
  - 4y ago
iavael 4y ago
So you think some kind of final solution is necessary?

jimbob45 4y ago

Any Russians on here to explain why dissenters wouldn’t work on leaving the country rather than token demonstrations like this?

gleenn 4y ago
The article says he was investigated only after his daughter drew a picture in class. So it probably wasn't particularly planned. And then he fled to Belarus once he got wind of the charges.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  Is vehemently disowning the art piece not enough to avoid jail or is it to the point where they’re jailing people for any excuse at all?
  - foobarian 4y ago
    What usually happens in cases like this, is you look closer, and it turns out there was a neighbor who had wanted to build a shed on the property line, and the guy told him off, and the neighbor happens to be a member of the CP...
  - dsabanin 4y ago
    The point is to spread fear of any action or even thought against the regime.
  - eitland 4y ago
    This is Russia. No reason is actually needed. They'll take care of making an excuse. Last year I saw a video of a woman getting rounded up while she was being interviewed and expressing her belief in the authorities. She was just standing with a camera team next to a demonstration. Wrong place at the wrong time I think.
    - formerly_proven 4y ago
      Oh I think I saw the same clip… one of those street interviews and a woman walks up and starts going like “You won’t dare showing this but I tell you I and many others support our preside-“ and gets nabbed by Russian police.

VincentEvans 4y ago

To an observer not closely following the extraordinary cycle of internal repressions taking place in Russia following its invasion of Ukraine - the news coming out of there, such as this one - may appear sensationalized. Surely this level of judicial evil is overstated! It’s not. The show trials over alleged enemies of the state reminiscent of Stalin are becoming routine. Regular people receiving sentences of 7 years in colonies for anti-war posts or statements - are common. At the same time - convicted murderers are freed to volunteer to fight against Ukraine and are given state honors, with laws being written threatening severe punishment for reporting the details of their past.

andersentobias 4y ago
Sources?
- bazoom42 4y ago
  Is this question in good faith? Wagner recruiting from prisons have been widely reported.
- eitland 4y ago
  Do you read Russian?
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    You can read the Moscow Times, an English language newspaper. They relocated to Amsterdam iirc and is owned by Derk Sauer who was booted out of Russia. He also writes interesting opinion pieces in het Parool about the re Stalinisation of Russia. Fascinating stuff. Ofcourse I have no idea if the majority of Russians really care- Stalin was very popular.
- _visgean 4y ago
  > Regular people receiving sentences of 7 years in colonies for anti-war posts or statements well apart from the from the article on which you are commenitng, you can read this https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/russia-student-blogger-sentenced-to-long-imprisonment-in-brutal-repression-of-anti-war-dissent/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/russia-studen... > At the same time - convicted murderers are freed to volunteer to fight against Ukraine and are given state honors e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/world/europe/wagner-fighters-burial-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/world/europe/wagner-fight...

imwillofficial 4y ago

[flagged]

avgcorrection 4y ago
That’s a curt reply to a seemingly complex issue.
- piva00 4y ago
  Pretty usual for this topic, it happens here on HN, on reddit and probably any place with discussions on the internet. It seems there's a cohort of people that actively disengage from any news about Russia during this war of aggression using the "propaganda" cop-out, if you press them on why there will be all sorts of justifications of not believing in mainstream media, etc., the usual post-truth bullshit.
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    To be honest I have a similar attitude in that I don’t engage much with those kinds of news. But that also means that I can’t just blurt out (or indirectly claim) that something is a propagandistic falsehood. Because I don’t know.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  There’s always astroturfers for Russia on social media. The Russians have people who sow FUD and some people are attracted to the message and carry it. Most commonly it’s whataboutism. It became more prevalent circa 2008.

esarbe 4y ago

Russia is slipping into totalitarianism more and more very day. But this did not happen over night; Putin and his cronies have been working towards this goal for more than 15 years now and the attack on Ukraine simply gave them all the excuses they needed to clamp down on the last dissenters. So painful

lolinder 4y ago
Russia never really got out of totalitarianism. They've had two brief windows where they looked like they might (post-revolution and post-collapse), but those were really just windows of pseudo-anarchy while the next totalitarian regime consolidated power.
- esarbe 4y ago
  I guess there's some truth to that. What's coming off now was just a pretense.

hippich 4y ago

Just to note, same happens in Belarus. This is one of the reason we can't travel there to see our grand parents - risk of being put in to prison and kids taken away is just to high to accept.

cainxinth 4y ago
Belarus is a Russian puppet-state under Lukashenko.
- varjag 4y ago
  The authoritarianism in Belarus is entirely domestic in origin and predates the modern Russian one.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    That's true but it still is a Russian puppet state at present.
    - varjag 4y ago
      It's fluid. In the way late period fascist Italy could be called puppet state of Nazi Germany perhaps. But Belarusian dictator has his own distinct agenda and pursues it despite very limited choices which "puppet state" kinda glosses over.
      - tomjakubowski 4y ago
        Somewhere I could read more about Lukashenko's agenda?
        varjag 4y ago
        As a .by native I never needed to go through any definitive source. But you often encounter useful nuggets in e.g. ISW reports and general long reads on situation with the Russian invasion. Naturally troubles in Belarus now pale to the savagery committed in Ukraine daily so there hasn't been much in terms of focused studies. But it's not like Lukashenka runs some policy think tank anyway. He mostly wings it, often demonstrating an uncanny political sense for a self projected image of a simpleton. Still he certainly blew it big time in 2022. After participating in a breezy (now forgotten) invasion in Kazakhstan he went all in with Putin's next adventure. Now his ambitions of great commander appear to be back on ice and the focus is on survival. And while his own people remain his #1 enemy he is awake to the threat of complete Russian take over as well.

fauxpause_ 4y ago

Wagner leader Prigozhin made a statement against this one as part of his internal politics war. So in case people are questioning whether this is just western propaganda, no, it appears to be the same story running around domestically, with many ultra nationalists supporting it.

red-iron-pine 4y ago
source me plz
- fauxpause_ 4y ago
  https://t.me/concordgroup_official/658 https://t.me/concordgroup_official/658 Covered by ISW: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-29-2023 https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offens... > Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin seized on the recent story of the sentencing of a Tula Oblast father for his 12-year-old daughter’s antiwar drawing to promote the Wagner Group’s reputation and ameliorate his own personal image. Prigozhin’s press service posted a letter on March 28 signed by Prigozhin, Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin, and Wagner-affiliated director of the “Liga” veteran's organization Andrey Troshev addressed to Tula Oblast prosecutor Alexander Gritsaenko stating that the signatories consider Gritsaenko’s issuance of a two-year prison sentence to Aleksey Moskalev unfair.[7] Moskalev was charged with “discrediting the armed forces” after his 12-year-old daughter Masha drew an antiwar picture with a Ukrainian flag in her school art class in April 2022.[8] Masha was taken into state custody and now lives in a juvenile shelter, and Moskalev fled house arrest the night before his sentencing and was sentenced to two years in prison in absentia.[9] Prigozhin’s letter suggests that Tula Oblast check the legality of Gritsaenko’s sentencing and recommends that Wagner-affiliated lawyers participate in the case on Moskalev’s side, noting that it is tragic that both Masha and children of dead Wagner fighters end up in orphanages.[10] Prigozhin’s response to Moskalev’s sentencing is particularly ironic considering that Prigozhin was initially one of the biggest and loudest supporters of the law on punishing those who ”discredit” Russian forces.[11] It is therefore likely that Prigozhin seized on the discourse surrounding Moskalev to further his own reputation and advocate for the Wagner Group, especially by choosing to highlight the plight of orphans of Wagner fighters who die in Ukraine.[12] Prigozhin may seek to maintain his own domestic relevance by continuing to closely involve himself in such developing stories, especially by affiliating his newest campaign for relevance with Utkin and Troshev—two well-established and notorious Wagner-affiliated personalities. The letter attempts to portray Wagner's leadership as a united front against elements of the Russian bureaucracy.[13]

ourmandave 4y ago

They've already yoinked hundreds of Ukraine children from families, so why not? Embrace the fuckery and continue the war crimes on your own citizens.

iso1631 4y ago
It seems that support for Ukraine is one aspect that crosses demographics here in the UK, Left and Right, Young and Old, Leave and Remain, all fully oppose Russia and broadly support the efforts the UK and the west in general have done. It seems to be that a significant number of people in America seem to support the Russian narrative.
- varjag 4y ago
  Selling Russia as the city on a hill to much of American public both on the right and on the left was tremendously successful info op.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    50 years ago the USSR had to get support from the left for ideological reasons, but now there is no limitation on who they support -- and they've been incredibly effective at influencing the US Right Wing. There was a time when the American left supported Moscow -- when they were the USSR, and represented a real communist alternative to a US government that still openly sanctioned segregation and union busting. Now their leftwing roots are mostly tankies and they have no real presence in US politics. The 20-something 'woke' crowd ain't listening to talking points from Chomsky. Meanwhile we have pictures of small redheaded Russian ladies talking to the NRA and making sure that the NRA gets money to give to... guess who? There are members of Congress who openly support Q-anon, which is almost certainly a foreign intelligence operation.
- dd36 4y ago
  That’s what their media is telling them.
  - 4y ago

okasaki 4y ago

[flagged]

Dobbs 4y ago
In neither the US nor UK would your children be taken away if you protested the Iraqi war.
Cenk 4y ago
I seriously doubt you can find me a case of a parent in the UK being sentences to two years in prison because their child drew a pro-ISIS drawing at school.
causi 4y ago
Perhaps in the UK, but writing "Glory to ISIS" is perfectly legal in the US.
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  It's not a crime in itself to say "Glory to ISIS!" but if you say it publicly, it will put you on the radar of law enforcement agencies like the FBI who will entrap you and then use your "Glory to ISIS!" post as evidence when they charge you with providing material support to terrorists. You can find plenty of indictment PDFs on justice.gov that reference "social media posts in support of ISIS."
  - causi 4y ago
    You can find plenty of indictment PDFs on justice.gov that reference "social media posts in support of ISIS." Are there any that only reference social media posts in support of ISIS? You could use them as supporting evidence of a crime but they are not a crime in and of themselves.
    - TechBro8615 4y ago
      Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying and clarified that (and then edited it again to restore the quote you were replying to, lol). It's not a crime in itself, but it puts you on the radar to be entrapped and later charged with a crime.

skee8383 4y ago

[flagged]

potatototoo99 4y ago

Is a family in the US that publicly supports Al Qaeda or ISIS not being threatened with the same?

khochesh_kushat 4y ago
No, and even if they were, that wouldn't make taking people's children away from them as punishment for thought crimes a reasonable policy.
- potatototoo99 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - khochesh_kushat 4y ago
    Listen you're not going to convince me that removing the children from anyone who disagrees with the party line is good policy, no matter where it happens, although I appreciate your apparent enthusiasm for it.
simion314 4y ago
Fuck dude, Ukraine is not a terrorist organization, at least compared with Ruzzia where you had state people going around the world and assassinating civilians with various possions. Too bad West is too coward to name Putin, his pary and Ruzzia a terrorist state and apply the laws for Ruzzia as they are doing for other terrorist organizations.
VincentEvans 4y ago
I doubt this argument is made in good faith. Do you think it’s reasonable to equate Ukraine with ISIS or Al Qaeda and a child drawing a painting depicting a mother and a child with the text “stop war” as supporting ISIS or Al Qaeda?

livinginfear 4y ago

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tokai 4y ago
Try following along instead of wrongly claiming scepticism towards something that is well documented.
- livinginfear 4y ago
  Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? Aren't there enough historic examples of how the American media establishment have been used to further American foreign policy objectives? I've always thought of myself as left-wing. I came of age in the 'War on Terror', and recall the collective skepticism of the American establishment. I remember the attitude of left-wing intellectuals like Chomsky, and the public reaction to what many other young people like myself thought was a war fought not for justice, but for American foreign policy interests. I don't see this kind of skepticism anymore.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? Skepticism is good, but has to be grounded in something plausible otherwise it isn't as much evidence of critical thinking, but rather of something else. > Aren't there enough historic examples of how the American media establishment have been used to further American foreign policy objectives? The Economist is British.
  - dralley 4y ago
    >Are you suggesting that I start blindly taking the mainstream media's reporting about war at good faith? No, you're being asked to at least attempt to find out the truth rather than dismiss all reporting as western propaganda. What would you accept as the truth? Would you accept Ukrainian reporting? Here's a Ukrainian documentary about two children who were essentially kidnapped and managed to escape with the help of an aid group in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyWA9ZK4Qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyWA9ZK4Qs TL;DR they were in occupied territory and their school principle set up a "2 week study trip" to Crimea. After the 2 weeks were up they were not released and were instead forcibly enrolled in new boarding schools. Here's another interview with kids who were eventually released: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/11zpeuy/children_that_were_kidnapped_from_kherson_were/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/11zpeuy/children_t... There are posts on social media of Russians who are "adopting" children from occupied territory https://mobile.twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1642893921024987136 https://mobile.twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1642893921024...

kybernetyk 4y ago

Same happens with Polish kids in Norway.

tromp 4y ago
citation needed
- sgt 4y ago
  I've heard of that and I tried to google it but it's nearly impossible to find anything on it on Google anymore. Something about Child Protection in Norway taking away children if the parent was fatigued etc.

jackmott42 4y ago

The same is happening in Texas, where your kid can be taken away without trial if someone reports that they may be trans.

TechBro8615 4y ago
[flagged]
- jackmott42 4y ago
  It is right here: https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/O-MastersJaime202202221358.pdf https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/O-MastersJaime2022... and when CPS is told about potential abuse they can take your kids away, and this is not theoretical, it has happened.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > when CPS is told about potential abuse they can take your kids away, and this is not theoretical, it has happened No, they cannot and no they have not. It was put on hold by the courts, and families were investigated without children being seized [1]. Together with the mass resignations at Texas’ CPS [2], it’s a potent example of the difference between a nation with the rule of law and an active civil society willing to make sacrifices and one without. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087991657/families-in-texas-with-transgender-children-say-theyre-under-attack https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1087991657/families-in-texas-... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/11/texas-trans-child-abuse-investigations/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/11/texas-trans-child-ab...
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    In addition to what JumpCrisscross explained to you, that document does not support your original claim that someone telling CPS your kid is trans leads to CPS taking your kid away. It says that it's illegal for you to facilitate or subject your kid to permanent, irreversible surgery on their genitalia. I suspect if you let your 14 year old kid get a tattoo, CPS would have questions. It seems reasonable they should also have questions if you're encouraging them to get irreversible genital surgery.

jawilson2 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago
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throwaway123929 4y ago
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- formerly_proven 4y ago
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stronglikedan 4y ago
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- Karawebnetwork 4y ago
  Major medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, have published policy statements and guidelines on how to provide age-appropriate gender-affirming care. All of those medical societies find such care to be evidence-based and medically necessary.
  - sonotathrowaway 4y ago
    This is all true, but the idea is that you’re supposed to place your political ideology above the evidence based plans of doctors.
  - geoduck14 4y ago
    The AAP says that 0.7 percent of teens [0] identify as transgender. Is that right? That sounds really low given all of the attention this topic is getting. [0] https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2018/aap-policy-statement-urges-support-and-care-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents/ https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2018/aap-...

ck2 4y ago

Go on, tell me this doesn't have a nuclear weapon used to "salt" Ukraine crops when he's on his final deathbed. There are no checks and balances, everyone is just going to do what they are told and that will be the end of that. The surge in the price of all wheat products in the US is in part due to Ukraine crops being unavailable, they are important to the entire world.

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robswc 4y ago

Nothing new. Family from Eastern Europe had to deal with this bs with communism. It was always the fear of neighbors “ratting you out” made everyone paranoid. You had to be on board or risked being “taken away.”

jacquesm 4y ago
Indeed. The fear was sometimes voiced as being afraid of people 'taking names' with future consequences.
lajosbacs 4y ago
And it takes generations to forget. I spent only my infancy under communism, but through my parents this is ingrained in me. I am always very careful to voice my opinion and I care too much about what unknown ppl would think about me. Criminal regime
arvigeus 4y ago
Not just “rattling out”, often you had a quota as well.

scottLobster 4y ago

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

codedokode 4y ago
That's how majority of the world lives though.
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Yeah, and I wouldn't want to live in the majority of the world. Judging by immigration patterns, most people who live in the majority of the world don't want to either. It's one reason Russia's having issues with the T-14 tank, not only are a lot of its parts imported from the West, but anyone in Russia smart enough to help build a tank has almost certainly left for the West where they can have a better standard of living. Democracies have decisively defeated dictatorships and oligarchies at every turn for the last century, the fact that dictatorships remain as a lesser category of nation is proof only that human potential has yet to be fully realized.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    People who actually develop tanks usually have restriction for going abroad for 5 or more years even after they leave they job because they know classified information. So I don't think that they left the country.
    - scottLobster 4y ago
      Perhaps for those who start the job. But if you're a Moscow State University engineering graduate, why would you even start when there are better available living situations? Sure maybe some stick around for familial/patriotic reasons, but most are going to leave for greener pastures.

medo-bear 4y ago

this is absolutely terrible. this is a sure way for russia to create a modern version of the stolen generation [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

jnsaff2 4y ago
Sure is terrible, just weird that russians themselves just take it and don't stand up.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  um they did, in 1917, like no one else, ever. too bad the whole thing took a wrong turn a decade later
  - jnsaff2 4y ago
    So they tried once a century ago, then gave up? How is this different from what I was asking? Nothing is done, violence is tolerated and glorified at home and exported to neighbors too.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  There have been many internal reform attempts in Russia, almost universally the leaders of each have been assassinated or imprisoned. It’s a very dangerous place to protest, especially now that they’ve invaded Ukraine and legalized mobilization.
  - jnsaff2 4y ago
    I have a suspicion that the siloviki insiders are okay with the system as is. Plenty of stealing to be done at all levels. The others still take it without doing anything about it.
- codedokode 4y ago
  Good luck standing up against million of well armed, well paid and well trained national guards.

331c8c71 4y ago

I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment. The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time): - in 1984 for theft - in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping - in 2008 for violating production/transport safety regulations Apparently he's also not paying utilities/taxes and have no legal sources of income -- he's growing and selling exotic animals but that's off the books. Feel sorry for the kid the most...

SXX 4y ago
Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago? Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month. Also do you reallt think it's a good idea to pay taxes in Russia at this moment? All these taxes gonna be used to kill children in Ukraine.
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  > Do you really think it's important what he did 20 years ago To the extent it might have influenced the ruling... > Half of Russia population don't pay taxes and occasionally have no money to cover their utility bills. Most people outside of Moscow only earn $300-500 / month. 50% would be an overstatement. It's normally deducted directly by the employer regardless of the salary so you don't see that money to start with (and typically negotiate/agree on your net salary). People who don't pay utilities eventually get disconnected from electricity/gas etc.
  - iavael 4y ago
    > It's normally deducted directly by the employer regardless of the salary That's why paying cash "in envelope" is a common practice in SMB. "Grey salary" as it's called there: minimal wage level part is payed officially, rest is not. > People who don't pay utilities eventually get disconnected from electricity/gas etc. That's more of exception than a rule. Huge debts for utilities (for 1 year of consumption or even more) are quite common. As also practice of "shame lists" in apartment lobbies with apartment numbers and sums of debt.

SXX 4y ago

As Russian who left the country on February 25th 2022 I can strongly recommend following substack for those who curios about economical and political situation inside the country: https://ironcurtain.substack.com/ https://ironcurtain.substack.com/ Author is Sergey Aleksashenko who is economist and former government official. He now live in US and actively support Ukraine, but he have really neutral and realistic view on events.

IngvarLynn 4y ago
The very first article I clicked is "analysis" of Levada polls. This is pure garbage. In the land where all sorts of police get involved over child's drawing the phone poll has value just above zero. I am yet to see any former kremlin official which public activity could not be classified as whitewashing.

Proven 4y ago

[dead]

kleiba 4y ago

Pro-russion forces will claim this report is mere propaganda - how to proof it's not?

lolinder 4y ago
The burden of proof is on the country that started an unprovoked, brutal war of aggression that has thrown away the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in just over a year and still insists on not referring to it as a war. If you don't want people to believe that your country is a brutal oppressive authoritarian regime, you start by not acting like one, not by crying foul when people tell stories about your brutal oppressive authoritarian habits.
d23 4y ago
They'd love nothing more than for you to believe there is no proof or evidence for anything -- no truth for you to discern. Just struggles in the will to power.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

There are international organizations that try to protect children's rights. For example, Robert Kennedy, who might a presidential run as a democrat in the next election is involved in the Children's Health Defence https://childrenshealthdefense.org/ https://childrenshealthdefense.org/

d23 4y ago

How depressing it must be to have lived through the collapse of the soviet union, realize the magnitude of lies, see the hope of a new Russia, and then have to go through this.

5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
> realize the magnitude of lies Most of those born in USSR did not go through that realization. I am from KZ and it's the same here, if a bit more toned down (at least you don't see open praise for Stalin, probably because we were one of the main destinations for many deportations initiated by him: I grew up among many ethnic Germans and Chechens and such). It's one of the main reasons for what's been happening since the beginning of 2022, IMHO.
shashurup 4y ago
To be honest, after the collapse I was to busy making ends meet. Later, surprisingly, the sad realization was the fact that the western propaganda was in no way better than the soviet - the soviet one was too straightforward and it was easy to spot what was omitted, what was exaggerated etc. I considered myself old and cynical but the level of hypocrisy recently is astonishingly, absolutely mind blowing.
gdy 4y ago
"How depressing it must be to have lived through the collapse of the soviet union" Unless you were among millions who simply died in the 'democratic' 90s [0]. "Mortality increased substantially after the economic crisis in 1998, with life expectancy falling to 58.9 years among men and 71.8 years among women by 2001. Most of these fluctuations were due to changes in mortality from vascular disease and violent deaths (mainly suicides, homicides, unintentional poisoning, and traffic incidents) among young and middle aged adults. Trends were similar in all parts of Russia. An extra 2.5-3 million Russian adults died in middle age in the period 1992-2001 than would have been expected based on 1991 mortality." And what was depressing was seeing the magnitude of Western lies and the disillusionment that followed. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC259165/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC259165/

foverzar 4y ago

Ow wow, I expected this one would become like "FSB arrests children for blowing up buildings in Minecraft" as soon as the first details had started to surface, but never would have guessed it would hit HN. PsyOps is strong, I see a few other people here bringing them up and getting mass downvoted.

orwin 4y ago
This one is on Russia telegram groups too, I don't think it's false (the details aren't the same, but the story is basically 'parent indoctrinated children should be given back to Russia' if Google translate is right)

mahoro 4y ago

They took my daughter to the orphanage luckily for two days because of this reason (I'm a single parent).