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It's not only Philips that has bitten the dust, there's been a succession of other large Western electronic companies that have either gone out of business or t

It's not only Philips that has bitten the dust, there's been a succession of other large Western electronic companies that have either gone out of business or that are now only a shadow of their former selves. Here's a partial list: Pye Industries, UK EMI (Electric & Musical Industries), UK Marconi, UK AWA (Amalgamated Wireless Australiasia), Australia Telefunken, Germany Thompson CSF, France HP Hewlett Packard, USA Kodak, USA Polaroid, USA Varian Associates, USA Ampex, USA General Radio, USA Philco, USA Admiral, USA RCA (Radio Corporation of America), USA Philips, NL - as mentioned I used to work for RCA and back then it was the largest electronics company in the world and Philips was second. When RCA failed, Philips became the biggest but unfortunately its time at the top was short-lived. There's several things that seem to characterize many of these failures, the first is that when founders leave or die companies often seem to lose drive and direction, and second companies become too big and diversification seems to kill their R&D/innovation. For example, RCA lost its direction and fell apart when its founder David Sarnoff died and his son took the helm. Similarly, another spectacular failure was Hewlett Packard when its last founder died. That said, there are exceptions such as Apple—but then it may not have been in existence long enough to tell, it hasn't been around anywhere near as long as say, Philips has. Moreover, it's highly dependent on Asian manufacturing, in the long-term, that may be Apple's Achilles's heel. Still, I think that's only part of the problem. Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline.

georgeecollins 4y ago
> Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. I don't like it! I think the first indicator of the west's downfall was our declining production of bricks. My parents warned me of how poor I would one day be because our steel production was in decline. Now I prepare my children to live in the poverty of the United States where they have no hope of ever working in a radio factory.
deleted 4y ago
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rapsey 4y ago
> Still, I think that's only part of the problem. Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. Not really. China is low end manufacture and has not moved meaningfully out of that niche at all. In fact they are losing their advantage with no alternative to fall back on. Chinese assembly is not nearly as cheap as it was and their playbook is being copied by other countries (India, Vietnam).
- Incipient 4y ago
  I'd be very interested to see some data on these trends. Without numbers it's impossible to say. I'd be fairly confident in some rough generalisations, but the specifics and magnitude I have no idea on: - for the last few decades the west has moved bulk value add manufacturing to China, and we've grown their economy/influence accordingly - China is definitely doing more high tech manufacturing, wafers and EV tech - basic manufacturing is definitely moving in part to cheaper countries
  - vincentdm 4y ago
    Here's a relevant article about it: https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-are-eyeing-asian-alternatives-to-chinese-manufacturing https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... Some quotes: "under a weighty combination of commercial and political pressure, foreign companies are beginning to pluck up the courage if not to leave China entirely, then at least to look beyond it for growth. Chinese labour is no longer that cheap: between 2013 and 2022 manufacturing wages doubled, to an average of $8.27 per hour (see chart). More important, the deepening Sino-American techno-decoupling is forcing manufacturers of high-tech products, especially those involving advanced semiconductors, to rethink their reliance on China." "This alternative Asian supply chain—call it Altasia—looks evenly matched with China in heft, or better (see map). Its collective working-age population of 1.4bn dwarfs even China’s 950m. Altasia is home to 155m people aged between 25 and 54 with a tertiary education, compared with 145m in China—and, in contrast to ageing China, their ranks look poised to expand. In many parts of Altasia wages are considerably lower than in China: hourly manufacturing wages in India, Malaysia, the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam are below $3, around one-third of what Chinese workers now demand. And the region is already an exporting power: its members sold $634bn-worth of merchandise to America in the 12 months to September 2022, edging out China’s $614bn." "Altasia will certainly not replace China soon, let alone overnight. In January, for example, Panasonic announced a big expansion of its Chinese operations. But in time China is likely to become less attractive to foreign manufacturers. Chinese labour is not getting any cheaper and its graduates are not getting much more numerous. America may yet realise that reducing its reliance on China in practice requires closer ties with friendly countries, including membership of the cptpp, the precursor of which collapsed after America pulled out in 2017. And as a budding alternative to China, Altasia has no equal."
zeristor 4y ago
On reading up about Pye, I found an interesting story about the valve EF50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF50 Used for TV, and then for radar in WWII. Added: http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-021.htm http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-021.htm
- fuzzfactor 4y ago
  This is something to think about. The research that went into things like this was so intense and demanded very rare individuals to become deeply engaged in the applicable aspects of natural science, that key progress was made in scattered areas after leaving the rest of the world's equally-qualified technologists in the dust. The companies were built as manufacturers of consumables, based on cheap materials, labor, and mass production. All this had occurred with wartime stakes and urgency. With the arrival of transistors, a new generation of researchers was deployed and the vacuum tube people continued their momentum not that much longer. Different kinds of fabrication facilities were needed for transistors, and mainly for supplying OEMs, these were also not consumable like bulbs in sockets. The strong urgency could not be re-established and I think a lot of the manufacturers had difficulty navigating technology migrations like this. A number of pivots did not include continued component manufacturing. Interestingly, a big vacuum chamber is where they make the semiconductors, carefully vaporizing solid-state materials in the process. And when the silicon comes out, you can make a radio without needing the little bulbs containing your own personal vacuums. Take a look at the comments here for some 21st century readings of an EF50: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ef50.html https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ef50.html Another decade of advances gave us things like the EF96 (6AG5/6186) for much higher frequency use: https://tube-data.com/sheets/093/6/6AG5.pdf https://tube-data.com/sheets/093/6/6AG5.pdf Well I'm not a radio man but these are great for audio, even though they're a preamp their internal structure is a bit like a beam power tube: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6186.html https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6186.html So pentode, triode, tetrode they are tasty and the sockets are not too unobtainable.
_trampeltier 4y ago
"seem to lose drive and direction", thats what happen to the company I work (until they close our factory by the end of 2023). For several years, there had been many ideas what to do and to change. But really just ideas, nobody did really decide and said "ok, let's do it". For years I used to say we have no idea where we like to go with our company. Now I know, our factory get closed be the end of 2023.
vasco 4y ago
Including Australia is weird, what does western mean in this context?
- gruturo 4y ago
  Australia is politically aligned with the "western" world (USA's sphere of influence) rather than with russia's ("Eastern bloc" at least until it fell apart) and it's quite typical to see it listed as such, despite its location on the planet. As we're discussing manufacturing, the opposite of the western world nowadays would be China (and India, Vietnam, etc)
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    Vietnam and the US are weirdly close considering what the US did to them. In 20 years, I expect relations with VN to look like our relationship with SK.
  - 3np 4y ago
    Some people even include Japan and Korea in "the West". Unqualified, it's an ambiguous term.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      I include Japan and South Korea in "the west", they share political and economical ideologies and military alliances with the USA. The term itself is an artifact of geographical considerations from the Cold War era, with Europe and Russia being west and east of the other respectively. Nowadays with Russia increasingly demonstrating their ineptitude, China is starting to fill "the east" shoes.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        > The term itself is an artifact of geographical considerations from the Cold War era, with Europe and Russia being west and east of the other respectively. Not so much, no. The concept of the "Western World" originated in the actions of the Roman emperor Diocletian who divided the Roman Empire in 286 into two halves, each with its own separate capital, government, and church.
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. "In 2000, Europe had 41 of the biggest 100 companies. Now it only has 15. A 63% decline in just two decades. The Economist says the "most striking" reason is the lack of successful startups. 63% declines are something you can't repeat too many times without creating the kind of situation historians give names to. Two more such periods, and Europe only has 2 of the top 100 companies." https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1400777576965185539 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1400777576965185539
- raverbashing 4y ago
  I'm not sure this is a very good measure. It is worrying, for sure, but the top 100 is cramped I'd argue the total market cap (or maybe revenue, etc) of top-500 might be a better measure. Surely it has gone down but maybe by less Also China's growth was the exceptional thing here (but yeah European management of those classic big companies fumbled a lot)
  - onetokeoverthe 4y ago
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  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Market cap wise Europe looks equally worse. The market cap of the US top tech companies is greater than EU's tech sector combined. Ouch! Europe's biggest tech companies leaders in the field are Airbus, SAP and ASML.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Market cap is, IMHO, not the best measure so. Revenue or market share seems a bit better. As an example, Japanese companies used to have huge market caps in the 90s, today not so much. Those companies still exist so, and are quite large players in their fields. And to be honest, Google is more ad-tech then anything else, Netflix is entertainment. Amazon is, depending on how you measure it, 50% retail / logistics and 50% AWS. Which leaves MS and Apple as true tech companies, while Facebook is social media. Retail, as in eCommerce, was ground breaking tech when Amazon started. Today, comparable tech is available from vendors like Shopify (web shops) and WiseTech (logistics and fulfillment). Social media was ground breaking when Facebook and MySpace came along, now it is more about selling ads then anything else. Streaming was ground breaking when YouTube and Netflix came around, now there are countless streaming services. And some of the older ones, looking at you Amazon, resembles traditional TV a lot. After all they sell ads now between streaming (FreeVee or what's it called) and broadcast new episodes on specific days, looking at you Amazon and Disney.
weinzierl 4y ago
I think Siemens fits in the list as well.
- hef19898 4y ago
  The whole home appliance business is now owned by Bosch (it used to be a joint-venture between those two companies previously). Consumer electronics so, everything from cameras to radios and TVs, was eaten in the 80s by Japanese companies. Then Korean companies stepped in, with actual manufacturing being outsourced across East Asia, from China and Taiwan to Vietnam and Thailand, and everyone between, left and right. Now Chinese companies entered the market not just as suppliers, but as actual brands, e.g. Huawei.
  - varjag 4y ago
    German Leica is still one of the few remaining digital camera manufacturers (and now world's largest film camera manufacturer).
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Few digital camera manufacturers? Besides Nikon, Canon, Fujifilm, Sony, Panasonic and virtually every smartphone manufacturer in the world? Leica glass is top notch, the real Leica glass, not the branded smartphone crap lenses. And Leicas are, and always have been, incredibly over priced for what they are, a little bit like Apple and Tesla. They are great cameras to use so, I had one for a project 20 years (too scared to actually count) ago. Great camera, even greater lenses. But now way near as much better as Canon or Nikon as the price would suggest.
      - varjag 4y ago
        It's strange you didn't mention Konica, Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Hasselblad oh right that's because they are dead or a virtual brand only. And the rest are pale shadows of themselves 10 years ago. The market is dead, dedicated digital cameras are at these point feel more obsolete than film.
inglor_cz 4y ago
"Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline." I think this has a lot to do with ever stricter environmental regulations; construction is hitting the same roadblock, environmental assessments are onerous in many places of the West. As a result, manufacturing moves to Asia and housing doesn't get built at all. Software, which doesn't face the same hurdles, flourishes in the West. A typical consumer combo is Asian hardware with European/American software. I don't think we are out of innovative spirit just yet, we rather have to prune the regulations a bit, because well-intentioned or no, one can regulate himself to complete stagnation.
- techdmn 4y ago
  I think you are on to something, but I would phrase it a little differently. Trade policy has clearly been designed to allow large multi-nationals to take advantage of lack of regulation in developing countries - little to no labor, environmental or other restrictions. (You know, the things that generally make western life bearable.) It was clear what the result of this would be: A lot of money being made off the decline of the West. I view it similarly to the way a C-Suite can bleed all the investment out of a successful company, making money hand over fist while they drive it into the ground. (G.E. & Sears come to mind.) Turns out you can do the same things with a country, or even a group of countries. A huge amount of wealth has been transferred to powerful individuals by extracting the decades of investment that built the world-leading economies of the West.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    My previous comment is obviously unpopular. Somehow, many people in the software industry, which is one of the least regulated activites on the planet, theoretically love regulatory burden placed on other people, as if "more is better". No, more isn't always better. But yes, I might have phrased my point obscurely. As an example of what I mean. I moved into a new building here, in Czechia, twice in my life. For the first time in 2008, for the second time in 2022. On both occassions, I received the full documentation stack (in paper) for the building. The 2022 stack is almost three times as thick as the 2008 stack. Endless reams upon reams of certificates, medaillons, permissions, test results etc. Is the 2022 building three times as ecological as the 2008 one? Not even remotely, the 2008 building was just fine in all parameters I could judge, a nice middle-class home with low energy footprint. Somehow, the bureaucratic documentation requirements tripled in 14 years, surely not overnight; more likely, a new regulation came into force every fortnight or so, adding a page or two to the total stack. Each of those steps was probably seen as insignificant by the authorities, but their aggregate effect must be significant. People spent time and resources achieving all those certifications; at the end of the day, it was me who paid for all that work. And for what gain precisely? The law of diminishing returns is strong in this regard. Most of the really important regulatory stuff was probably already in place by 2008. We didn't live in mud huts with outhouses and didn't burn dirty oil for heat in that building. This is the kind of red tape running amok that leads to stagnation and high living costs in the West.
mschuster91 4y ago
To add to that list two iconic German brands: AEG and Grundig.
Daub 4y ago
There have been many books written on why companies succeed/fail. The general observations that you make all concur with agreed wisdoms on this matter: small startup = mobile, creative, innovative and fast moving. Estabslhsed blue-chip company = the opposite. So... how does a large monolith renew itself? One solution with a reasonable track record is to 'replace from within', much as a cuckoo replaces its host. 1. Set up a small unit within your (monolith) company. 2. Staff it with your best and brightest. 3. Physically separate this unit from the rest of the company, but not so much that they forget 'who they belong to'. 4. Establish a line of direct communication between this unit and a high-level manager, bypassing middle managers. 5. XXXX 6. Profit! XXXX is the problem part. How to graft the young onto the old? Failure to capitalize = Kodak (invented the digital camera but could not make it 'happen'), Palm and its development of WebOS (could have been a contender, but let down by poor hardware and other stuff), Palo Alto and Xerox ('nuff said).
- deleted 4y ago
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- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  This was actually the play that IBM did when it created the PC. They opened a facility in Florida far from their corporate headquarters in New York.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    In Boca Raton. I think they moved the whole facility to Austin by now, but it was a very interesting campus when I did an internship there in 1995. The office I had used to be occupied on Microsoft who just stopped working with IBM on OS/2. Also, it being Florida and me being only 20, no one carded us when we went out for drinks.
- pirate787 4y ago
  This is how Sony launched Playstation over the resistance of traditionalists in Tokyo not interested in making "toys" -- they set up an independent company in Europe.
arp242 4y ago
> Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. China is pretty good at manufacturing, and pretty terrible at everything else. Research and innovation in particular are very much China's weak point.
- JPLeRouzic 4y ago
  > "* Research and innovation in particular are very much China's weak point.*" Then why in most scientific papers often at least one author has a name of 'Han' origin?
  - pb7 4y ago
    Because they have 1.4B people? China != people of Chinese ethnicity. Your name doesn’t change when you immigrate somewhere.
  - kerpotgh 4y ago
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sdze 4y ago
Very nice list of examples why people should stick to index investing for a pension plan.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  And why relying on an employer existing and being financially capable in 30+ years makes defined benefit pensions not make sense.
rayiner 4y ago
> Still, I think that's only part of the problem. Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. It’s also worth connecting this to the economic stagnation in Western Europe since 2008. GDP per capita has not budged in the UK, France, and Italy in more than a decade.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  I think you mean Real GPD per capita, not GDP per capita alone as the former is also adjusted for inflation. GDP per capita definitely grew, but once you subtract inflation, it's close to zero for some countries or even negative for countries like Greece, Italy compared to their pre-2008 numbers. Ouch! Most of the growth has been in Eastern Europe and the very wealthy ones like Netherlands, Luxembourg, etc.
  - zx8080 4y ago
    How does the GDP per capita been rising, especially considering young generation has been leaving in mass right since the EU association signing and borders open?
Aloha 4y ago
Here are some others - Zenith, and Motorola too - both exist in some form, but are shadows of their former selves. Also, notably - Western Electric. Zenith was quite successful, and was making TV sets in the US until the early 90's - but eventually the lower cost of overseas manufacturing caught up with them. Motorola and Western are the saddest though, Motorola made everything, soup to nuts used in their products, and then bit by bit sold off the bits util they were left with two way radios (Motorola Solutions is the survivor of the original Motorola Inc). Western never really figured out divestiture, there are bits of pieces of it left, if anything Avaya is the closest to a spiritual successor to it (part numbering styles and engineering style).
- cf100clunk 4y ago
  > Zenith was quite successful, and was making TV sets in the US until the early 90's - but eventually the lower cost of overseas manufacturing caught up with them. Zenith's TV engineering business was bought out by South Korea's LG, and Zenith's role as main guiding force behind North America's ATSC digital TV broadcast system was grandfathered to LG with many of the same people.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    I'd intimated that in a parallel comment. I think its good that LG has maintained Zenth's labs.
- bluedays 4y ago
  I had a Zenith tv growing up. I beat the hell out of that thing. It was indestructible. I was always hooking and unhooking my game systems to it and I’m told often you would hear loud crashes as it went slamming into the ground but it never broke. Eventually we changed over to flat screens and we got rid of the tv, and I’m not sure what happens to that tv. Someone might still be using it today. I wonder if the downfall of Zenith is that they made their products too well.
  - ridgered4 4y ago
    I had a Zenith from the 1980s that I eventually had to just throw out as I didn't really have space for it and the 20" size had been obsolete for some tie. The thing wouldn't die. It actually had a better picture than some later TVs I'd owned before I inherited it from my parents. I still have mixed feelings about letting it go.
gregoriol 4y ago
> For example, RCA lost its direction and fell apart when its founder David Sarnoff died and his son took the helm. Similarly, another spectacular failure was Hewlett Packard when its last founder died. > That said, there are exceptions such as Apple—but then it may not have been in existence long enough to tell Apple would be about the same story: it hasn't created anything really meaningful since Jobs, it mostly lives on the legacy that has been set. Luckily for Cook the company has a good storytelling and aura, but major innovation hasn't been there for a long time, and when the wave slows down it may well end up like the others you listed.
- ralusek 4y ago
  Apple silicon is biggest innovation in mainstream personal computing in at least a decade. Their upcoming move into AR/VR indicates that they're at least maintaining a presence at the frontier.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Apple Watch is an entirely Tim Cook creation. Apple Silicon, too. Apple TV is the only non-scummy streaming box. It doesn't sell your viewing data to advertisers (though individual apps may). Apple TV+ has the highest signal-to-noise ratio of any non-niche streaming service. I don't think there's a close second. The latest HomePods and software iteration has made an appreciable positive difference in the quality of my life -- the intercom feature in particular is huge. This may not be unique to Apple, but it's well implemented. You can kvetch about bugs, declining software quality, etc (we certainly did when Jobs was running the place) -- but "meaningful"? Apple is more meaningful to more people than ever before.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > Apple Watch is an entirely Tim Cook creation. Apple Silicon, too. PA Semi was acquired before Tim Cook became CEO (2008). I wouldn't say Apple Silicon is entirely a Tim Cook creation. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-M1-Pro-M1-Max-chips-are-the-culmination-of-a-vision-hatched-in-2008.577290.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-M1-Pro-M1-Max-chips-ar...
- 4y ago
brwck 4y ago
> Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. Europe is in a state of decline. The US is doing fine. The difference between the US and Europe is that we went up the value chain ( Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Netflix, Nvidia, etc ). Europe did not. Consumer electronics is relatively low level tech. It was "gifted" to the japanese and then the koreans and eventually the chinese while we moved up the chain to the more valuable internet, social media and software development. Where is europe's microsoft? Their apple? Their facebook? Their google? There is no "the West". No more than there is "the East". Edit: Also, it isn't consumer electronics that's the issue. It's the future ( the next rung up the value chain ) - AI, big data, quantum computing, bio-tech, green energy tech, etc. Will europe even participate because currently it looks like it will be only the US and China competing.
- barrkel 4y ago
  Europe moved further up the value chain into luxury products ;)
- sschueller 4y ago
  All of these things require microchips and without ASML they wouldn't exist. I don't agree that Europe is on the decline. They are just in a different industry than the US.
  - lttlrck 4y ago
    They would exist, they just wouldn't be as small/power efficient. Also, "necessity is the mother of invention".
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    I worry about ASML. It's interesting that ASML is mentioned here when talking about an ailing Philips as it's a spinoff of the latter. My concern is that in the European environment it stands alone—it stands out amongst European manufacturers like a pimple. It's IP is already under attack from China and the chances of it hanging out indefinately over the long-term I reckon are pretty slim (but I truly hope I'm wrong). The trouble is that being the only standout in its environment (Europe) it becomes fair game, especially so when the cultural ethos isn't strong or is missing (NL and other European governments/EU should be doing more to protect it). Also, ASML isn't helping itself by objecting about being blocked from selling to China, short-term gain will likely be its long-term loss. To survive long-term, ASML needs to be amongst other like firms in a culturally similar environment and that's not the current situation.
no_wizard 4y ago
While others have tackled the thesis as whole here, and I generally agree with the overall sentiment that the value chain just moved and manufacturing electronics is a really global and competitive business that makes it hard to differentiate, I want to poke specifically at Kodak. Kodak patented and had provable manufacturing runs of fiber optic, flexible printed motherboards for computers This, as I understand it, is (was?) the "next moment" for computing because fiber optics can dramatically increase the bandwidth of hardware components. Yet, it went nowhere, and to this day, I don't understand why. Never was able to find follow up about it other than the original demos in a news broadcast
- onetokeoverthe 4y ago
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- yvdriess 4y ago
  It might be a lack of a system or willingness to stick with it until it gets good. The manager championing it moves, Business shows a low TAM, there is a bad quarter and the CEO needs to appease investors, etc.
onetokeoverthe 4y ago
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AnonMO 4y ago
why is HP on the list? its revenues are on par or slightly below competitors in the sector and if you add the enterprise revenues its more of a 1 to 1. Hp consumer revenue 60 billion, HP enterprise revenue 30 billion in comparison to dell 100 billion and lenovo 70 billion in annual revenue the two include enterprise revenues which isn't spun off like with HP. All three are at peak revenues. Aside from that cisco, ubiquiti, nvdia, amd, intel(ish),LAM, AMAT, micron are the best in their fields honestly its seems like EU companies are in shambles not US take a look at ericsson vs huawei idk if the US has any real competitors in telecommunication hardware cisco is more of a networking company nowadays.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  The current HP is a tiny slice of their former glory. Most of the company is gone.
  - AnonMO 4y ago
    Hows so? aside from not having FAANG clout Its literally the only company on that list that still grows yoy and its revenue has all but recovered since the down trend after the 2008 crash if you include the enterprise. Even the number of patents given has been growing
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > How so? It have been pretty deviating in Nov. 2015 when HP lost ewlett- ackard.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      They're missing Agilent, Keysight, their IC and LED fabs and other peripheral businesses.
      - fomine3 4y ago
        Do you think spin-out is death?
AnthonyMouse 4y ago
> There's several things that seem to characterize many of these failures, the first is that when founders leave or die companies often seem to lose drive and direction, and second companies become too big and diversification seems to kill their R&D/innovation. The latter is the downfall of most conglomerates. Kodak invented the digital camera and then failed to capitalize because they were afraid it would cannibalize their film division. Which was true -- it did -- but then the digital camera business went to someone else. Leadership needs to be able to make hard calls like that before it's too late. Which founders tend to be better at than MBAs.
yawniek 4y ago
also olivetti, Italy who brought to market the very first personal computer.
Dig1t 4y ago
The west, particularly the USA, sacrificed so many industries on the alter of globalization. We gutted our workforce and told ourselves we were keeping the best jobs for ourselves. The loss of all those jobs and economic activity has contributed significantly to the wealth gap IMO. I don’t think that having lots of cheap trinkets available on Amazon has been worth it, to be honest.

georgeecollins 4y ago

> Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. I don't like it! I think the first indicator of the west's downfall was our declining production of bricks. My parents warned me of how poor I would one day be because our steel production was in decline. Now I prepare my children to live in the poverty of the United States where they have no hope of ever working in a radio factory.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rapsey 4y ago

> Still, I think that's only part of the problem. Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. Not really. China is low end manufacture and has not moved meaningfully out of that niche at all. In fact they are losing their advantage with no alternative to fall back on. Chinese assembly is not nearly as cheap as it was and their playbook is being copied by other countries (India, Vietnam).

Incipient 4y ago
I'd be very interested to see some data on these trends. Without numbers it's impossible to say. I'd be fairly confident in some rough generalisations, but the specifics and magnitude I have no idea on: - for the last few decades the west has moved bulk value add manufacturing to China, and we've grown their economy/influence accordingly - China is definitely doing more high tech manufacturing, wafers and EV tech - basic manufacturing is definitely moving in part to cheaper countries
- vincentdm 4y ago
  Here's a relevant article about it: https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-are-eyeing-asian-alternatives-to-chinese-manufacturing https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... Some quotes: "under a weighty combination of commercial and political pressure, foreign companies are beginning to pluck up the courage if not to leave China entirely, then at least to look beyond it for growth. Chinese labour is no longer that cheap: between 2013 and 2022 manufacturing wages doubled, to an average of $8.27 per hour (see chart). More important, the deepening Sino-American techno-decoupling is forcing manufacturers of high-tech products, especially those involving advanced semiconductors, to rethink their reliance on China." "This alternative Asian supply chain—call it Altasia—looks evenly matched with China in heft, or better (see map). Its collective working-age population of 1.4bn dwarfs even China’s 950m. Altasia is home to 155m people aged between 25 and 54 with a tertiary education, compared with 145m in China—and, in contrast to ageing China, their ranks look poised to expand. In many parts of Altasia wages are considerably lower than in China: hourly manufacturing wages in India, Malaysia, the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam are below $3, around one-third of what Chinese workers now demand. And the region is already an exporting power: its members sold $634bn-worth of merchandise to America in the 12 months to September 2022, edging out China’s $614bn." "Altasia will certainly not replace China soon, let alone overnight. In January, for example, Panasonic announced a big expansion of its Chinese operations. But in time China is likely to become less attractive to foreign manufacturers. Chinese labour is not getting any cheaper and its graduates are not getting much more numerous. America may yet realise that reducing its reliance on China in practice requires closer ties with friendly countries, including membership of the cptpp, the precursor of which collapsed after America pulled out in 2017. And as a budding alternative to China, Altasia has no equal."

zeristor 4y ago

On reading up about Pye, I found an interesting story about the valve EF50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF50 Used for TV, and then for radar in WWII. Added: http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-021.htm http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-021.htm

fuzzfactor 4y ago
This is something to think about. The research that went into things like this was so intense and demanded very rare individuals to become deeply engaged in the applicable aspects of natural science, that key progress was made in scattered areas after leaving the rest of the world's equally-qualified technologists in the dust. The companies were built as manufacturers of consumables, based on cheap materials, labor, and mass production. All this had occurred with wartime stakes and urgency. With the arrival of transistors, a new generation of researchers was deployed and the vacuum tube people continued their momentum not that much longer. Different kinds of fabrication facilities were needed for transistors, and mainly for supplying OEMs, these were also not consumable like bulbs in sockets. The strong urgency could not be re-established and I think a lot of the manufacturers had difficulty navigating technology migrations like this. A number of pivots did not include continued component manufacturing. Interestingly, a big vacuum chamber is where they make the semiconductors, carefully vaporizing solid-state materials in the process. And when the silicon comes out, you can make a radio without needing the little bulbs containing your own personal vacuums. Take a look at the comments here for some 21st century readings of an EF50: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ef50.html https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ef50.html Another decade of advances gave us things like the EF96 (6AG5/6186) for much higher frequency use: https://tube-data.com/sheets/093/6/6AG5.pdf https://tube-data.com/sheets/093/6/6AG5.pdf Well I'm not a radio man but these are great for audio, even though they're a preamp their internal structure is a bit like a beam power tube: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6186.html https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6186.html So pentode, triode, tetrode they are tasty and the sockets are not too unobtainable.

_trampeltier 4y ago

"seem to lose drive and direction", thats what happen to the company I work (until they close our factory by the end of 2023). For several years, there had been many ideas what to do and to change. But really just ideas, nobody did really decide and said "ok, let's do it". For years I used to say we have no idea where we like to go with our company. Now I know, our factory get closed be the end of 2023.

vasco 4y ago

Including Australia is weird, what does western mean in this context?

gruturo 4y ago
Australia is politically aligned with the "western" world (USA's sphere of influence) rather than with russia's ("Eastern bloc" at least until it fell apart) and it's quite typical to see it listed as such, despite its location on the planet. As we're discussing manufacturing, the opposite of the western world nowadays would be China (and India, Vietnam, etc)
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  Vietnam and the US are weirdly close considering what the US did to them. In 20 years, I expect relations with VN to look like our relationship with SK.
- 3np 4y ago
  Some people even include Japan and Korea in "the West". Unqualified, it's an ambiguous term.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    I include Japan and South Korea in "the west", they share political and economical ideologies and military alliances with the USA. The term itself is an artifact of geographical considerations from the Cold War era, with Europe and Russia being west and east of the other respectively. Nowadays with Russia increasingly demonstrating their ineptitude, China is starting to fill "the east" shoes.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > The term itself is an artifact of geographical considerations from the Cold War era, with Europe and Russia being west and east of the other respectively. Not so much, no. The concept of the "Western World" originated in the actions of the Roman emperor Diocletian who divided the Roman Empire in 286 into two halves, each with its own separate capital, government, and church.

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. "In 2000, Europe had 41 of the biggest 100 companies. Now it only has 15. A 63% decline in just two decades. The Economist says the "most striking" reason is the lack of successful startups. 63% declines are something you can't repeat too many times without creating the kind of situation historians give names to. Two more such periods, and Europe only has 2 of the top 100 companies." https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1400777576965185539 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1400777576965185539

raverbashing 4y ago
I'm not sure this is a very good measure. It is worrying, for sure, but the top 100 is cramped I'd argue the total market cap (or maybe revenue, etc) of top-500 might be a better measure. Surely it has gone down but maybe by less Also China's growth was the exceptional thing here (but yeah European management of those classic big companies fumbled a lot)
- onetokeoverthe 4y ago
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- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Market cap wise Europe looks equally worse. The market cap of the US top tech companies is greater than EU's tech sector combined. Ouch! Europe's biggest tech companies leaders in the field are Airbus, SAP and ASML.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Market cap is, IMHO, not the best measure so. Revenue or market share seems a bit better. As an example, Japanese companies used to have huge market caps in the 90s, today not so much. Those companies still exist so, and are quite large players in their fields. And to be honest, Google is more ad-tech then anything else, Netflix is entertainment. Amazon is, depending on how you measure it, 50% retail / logistics and 50% AWS. Which leaves MS and Apple as true tech companies, while Facebook is social media. Retail, as in eCommerce, was ground breaking tech when Amazon started. Today, comparable tech is available from vendors like Shopify (web shops) and WiseTech (logistics and fulfillment). Social media was ground breaking when Facebook and MySpace came along, now it is more about selling ads then anything else. Streaming was ground breaking when YouTube and Netflix came around, now there are countless streaming services. And some of the older ones, looking at you Amazon, resembles traditional TV a lot. After all they sell ads now between streaming (FreeVee or what's it called) and broadcast new episodes on specific days, looking at you Amazon and Disney.

weinzierl 4y ago

I think Siemens fits in the list as well.

hef19898 4y ago
The whole home appliance business is now owned by Bosch (it used to be a joint-venture between those two companies previously). Consumer electronics so, everything from cameras to radios and TVs, was eaten in the 80s by Japanese companies. Then Korean companies stepped in, with actual manufacturing being outsourced across East Asia, from China and Taiwan to Vietnam and Thailand, and everyone between, left and right. Now Chinese companies entered the market not just as suppliers, but as actual brands, e.g. Huawei.
- varjag 4y ago
  German Leica is still one of the few remaining digital camera manufacturers (and now world's largest film camera manufacturer).
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Few digital camera manufacturers? Besides Nikon, Canon, Fujifilm, Sony, Panasonic and virtually every smartphone manufacturer in the world? Leica glass is top notch, the real Leica glass, not the branded smartphone crap lenses. And Leicas are, and always have been, incredibly over priced for what they are, a little bit like Apple and Tesla. They are great cameras to use so, I had one for a project 20 years (too scared to actually count) ago. Great camera, even greater lenses. But now way near as much better as Canon or Nikon as the price would suggest.
    - varjag 4y ago
      It's strange you didn't mention Konica, Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Hasselblad oh right that's because they are dead or a virtual brand only. And the rest are pale shadows of themselves 10 years ago. The market is dead, dedicated digital cameras are at these point feel more obsolete than film.

inglor_cz 4y ago

"Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline." I think this has a lot to do with ever stricter environmental regulations; construction is hitting the same roadblock, environmental assessments are onerous in many places of the West. As a result, manufacturing moves to Asia and housing doesn't get built at all. Software, which doesn't face the same hurdles, flourishes in the West. A typical consumer combo is Asian hardware with European/American software. I don't think we are out of innovative spirit just yet, we rather have to prune the regulations a bit, because well-intentioned or no, one can regulate himself to complete stagnation.

techdmn 4y ago
I think you are on to something, but I would phrase it a little differently. Trade policy has clearly been designed to allow large multi-nationals to take advantage of lack of regulation in developing countries - little to no labor, environmental or other restrictions. (You know, the things that generally make western life bearable.) It was clear what the result of this would be: A lot of money being made off the decline of the West. I view it similarly to the way a C-Suite can bleed all the investment out of a successful company, making money hand over fist while they drive it into the ground. (G.E. & Sears come to mind.) Turns out you can do the same things with a country, or even a group of countries. A huge amount of wealth has been transferred to powerful individuals by extracting the decades of investment that built the world-leading economies of the West.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  My previous comment is obviously unpopular. Somehow, many people in the software industry, which is one of the least regulated activites on the planet, theoretically love regulatory burden placed on other people, as if "more is better". No, more isn't always better. But yes, I might have phrased my point obscurely. As an example of what I mean. I moved into a new building here, in Czechia, twice in my life. For the first time in 2008, for the second time in 2022. On both occassions, I received the full documentation stack (in paper) for the building. The 2022 stack is almost three times as thick as the 2008 stack. Endless reams upon reams of certificates, medaillons, permissions, test results etc. Is the 2022 building three times as ecological as the 2008 one? Not even remotely, the 2008 building was just fine in all parameters I could judge, a nice middle-class home with low energy footprint. Somehow, the bureaucratic documentation requirements tripled in 14 years, surely not overnight; more likely, a new regulation came into force every fortnight or so, adding a page or two to the total stack. Each of those steps was probably seen as insignificant by the authorities, but their aggregate effect must be significant. People spent time and resources achieving all those certifications; at the end of the day, it was me who paid for all that work. And for what gain precisely? The law of diminishing returns is strong in this regard. Most of the really important regulatory stuff was probably already in place by 2008. We didn't live in mud huts with outhouses and didn't burn dirty oil for heat in that building. This is the kind of red tape running amok that leads to stagnation and high living costs in the West.

mschuster91 4y ago

To add to that list two iconic German brands: AEG and Grundig.

Daub 4y ago

There have been many books written on why companies succeed/fail. The general observations that you make all concur with agreed wisdoms on this matter: small startup = mobile, creative, innovative and fast moving. Estabslhsed blue-chip company = the opposite. So... how does a large monolith renew itself? One solution with a reasonable track record is to 'replace from within', much as a cuckoo replaces its host. 1. Set up a small unit within your (monolith) company. 2. Staff it with your best and brightest. 3. Physically separate this unit from the rest of the company, but not so much that they forget 'who they belong to'. 4. Establish a line of direct communication between this unit and a high-level manager, bypassing middle managers. 5. XXXX 6. Profit! XXXX is the problem part. How to graft the young onto the old? Failure to capitalize = Kodak (invented the digital camera but could not make it 'happen'), Palm and its development of WebOS (could have been a contender, but let down by poor hardware and other stuff), Palo Alto and Xerox ('nuff said).

deleted 4y ago
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RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
This was actually the play that IBM did when it created the PC. They opened a facility in Florida far from their corporate headquarters in New York.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  In Boca Raton. I think they moved the whole facility to Austin by now, but it was a very interesting campus when I did an internship there in 1995. The office I had used to be occupied on Microsoft who just stopped working with IBM on OS/2. Also, it being Florida and me being only 20, no one carded us when we went out for drinks.
pirate787 4y ago
This is how Sony launched Playstation over the resistance of traditionalists in Tokyo not interested in making "toys" -- they set up an independent company in Europe.

arp242 4y ago

> Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. China is pretty good at manufacturing, and pretty terrible at everything else. Research and innovation in particular are very much China's weak point.

JPLeRouzic 4y ago
> "* Research and innovation in particular are very much China's weak point.*" Then why in most scientific papers often at least one author has a name of 'Han' origin?
- pb7 4y ago
  Because they have 1.4B people? China != people of Chinese ethnicity. Your name doesn’t change when you immigrate somewhere.
- kerpotgh 4y ago
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sdze 4y ago

Very nice list of examples why people should stick to index investing for a pension plan.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
And why relying on an employer existing and being financially capable in 30+ years makes defined benefit pensions not make sense.

rayiner 4y ago

> Still, I think that's only part of the problem. Manufacturing and innovation in Western countries are now in a state of malaise and they're being quickly overtaken by Asian countries such as China. Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. It’s also worth connecting this to the economic stagnation in Western Europe since 2008. GDP per capita has not budged in the UK, France, and Italy in more than a decade.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
I think you mean Real GPD per capita, not GDP per capita alone as the former is also adjusted for inflation. GDP per capita definitely grew, but once you subtract inflation, it's close to zero for some countries or even negative for countries like Greece, Italy compared to their pre-2008 numbers. Ouch! Most of the growth has been in Eastern Europe and the very wealthy ones like Netherlands, Luxembourg, etc.
- zx8080 4y ago
  How does the GDP per capita been rising, especially considering young generation has been leaving in mass right since the EU association signing and borders open?

Aloha 4y ago

Here are some others - Zenith, and Motorola too - both exist in some form, but are shadows of their former selves. Also, notably - Western Electric. Zenith was quite successful, and was making TV sets in the US until the early 90's - but eventually the lower cost of overseas manufacturing caught up with them. Motorola and Western are the saddest though, Motorola made everything, soup to nuts used in their products, and then bit by bit sold off the bits util they were left with two way radios (Motorola Solutions is the survivor of the original Motorola Inc). Western never really figured out divestiture, there are bits of pieces of it left, if anything Avaya is the closest to a spiritual successor to it (part numbering styles and engineering style).

cf100clunk 4y ago
> Zenith was quite successful, and was making TV sets in the US until the early 90's - but eventually the lower cost of overseas manufacturing caught up with them. Zenith's TV engineering business was bought out by South Korea's LG, and Zenith's role as main guiding force behind North America's ATSC digital TV broadcast system was grandfathered to LG with many of the same people.
- Aloha 4y ago
  I'd intimated that in a parallel comment. I think its good that LG has maintained Zenth's labs.
bluedays 4y ago
I had a Zenith tv growing up. I beat the hell out of that thing. It was indestructible. I was always hooking and unhooking my game systems to it and I’m told often you would hear loud crashes as it went slamming into the ground but it never broke. Eventually we changed over to flat screens and we got rid of the tv, and I’m not sure what happens to that tv. Someone might still be using it today. I wonder if the downfall of Zenith is that they made their products too well.
- ridgered4 4y ago
  I had a Zenith from the 1980s that I eventually had to just throw out as I didn't really have space for it and the 20" size had been obsolete for some tie. The thing wouldn't die. It actually had a better picture than some later TVs I'd owned before I inherited it from my parents. I still have mixed feelings about letting it go.

gregoriol 4y ago

> For example, RCA lost its direction and fell apart when its founder David Sarnoff died and his son took the helm. Similarly, another spectacular failure was Hewlett Packard when its last founder died. > That said, there are exceptions such as Apple—but then it may not have been in existence long enough to tell Apple would be about the same story: it hasn't created anything really meaningful since Jobs, it mostly lives on the legacy that has been set. Luckily for Cook the company has a good storytelling and aura, but major innovation hasn't been there for a long time, and when the wave slows down it may well end up like the others you listed.

ralusek 4y ago
Apple silicon is biggest innovation in mainstream personal computing in at least a decade. Their upcoming move into AR/VR indicates that they're at least maintaining a presence at the frontier.
KerrAvon 4y ago
Apple Watch is an entirely Tim Cook creation. Apple Silicon, too. Apple TV is the only non-scummy streaming box. It doesn't sell your viewing data to advertisers (though individual apps may). Apple TV+ has the highest signal-to-noise ratio of any non-niche streaming service. I don't think there's a close second. The latest HomePods and software iteration has made an appreciable positive difference in the quality of my life -- the intercom feature in particular is huge. This may not be unique to Apple, but it's well implemented. You can kvetch about bugs, declining software quality, etc (we certainly did when Jobs was running the place) -- but "meaningful"? Apple is more meaningful to more people than ever before.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > Apple Watch is an entirely Tim Cook creation. Apple Silicon, too. PA Semi was acquired before Tim Cook became CEO (2008). I wouldn't say Apple Silicon is entirely a Tim Cook creation. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-M1-Pro-M1-Max-chips-are-the-culmination-of-a-vision-hatched-in-2008.577290.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-M1-Pro-M1-Max-chips-ar...
4y ago

brwck 4y ago

> Like it or not, the West generally is in a state of decline. Europe is in a state of decline. The US is doing fine. The difference between the US and Europe is that we went up the value chain ( Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Netflix, Nvidia, etc ). Europe did not. Consumer electronics is relatively low level tech. It was "gifted" to the japanese and then the koreans and eventually the chinese while we moved up the chain to the more valuable internet, social media and software development. Where is europe's microsoft? Their apple? Their facebook? Their google? There is no "the West". No more than there is "the East". Edit: Also, it isn't consumer electronics that's the issue. It's the future ( the next rung up the value chain ) - AI, big data, quantum computing, bio-tech, green energy tech, etc. Will europe even participate because currently it looks like it will be only the US and China competing.

barrkel 4y ago
Europe moved further up the value chain into luxury products ;)
sschueller 4y ago
All of these things require microchips and without ASML they wouldn't exist. I don't agree that Europe is on the decline. They are just in a different industry than the US.
- lttlrck 4y ago
  They would exist, they just wouldn't be as small/power efficient. Also, "necessity is the mother of invention".
- hilbert42 4y ago
  I worry about ASML. It's interesting that ASML is mentioned here when talking about an ailing Philips as it's a spinoff of the latter. My concern is that in the European environment it stands alone—it stands out amongst European manufacturers like a pimple. It's IP is already under attack from China and the chances of it hanging out indefinately over the long-term I reckon are pretty slim (but I truly hope I'm wrong). The trouble is that being the only standout in its environment (Europe) it becomes fair game, especially so when the cultural ethos isn't strong or is missing (NL and other European governments/EU should be doing more to protect it). Also, ASML isn't helping itself by objecting about being blocked from selling to China, short-term gain will likely be its long-term loss. To survive long-term, ASML needs to be amongst other like firms in a culturally similar environment and that's not the current situation.

no_wizard 4y ago

While others have tackled the thesis as whole here, and I generally agree with the overall sentiment that the value chain just moved and manufacturing electronics is a really global and competitive business that makes it hard to differentiate, I want to poke specifically at Kodak. Kodak patented and had provable manufacturing runs of fiber optic, flexible printed motherboards for computers This, as I understand it, is (was?) the "next moment" for computing because fiber optics can dramatically increase the bandwidth of hardware components. Yet, it went nowhere, and to this day, I don't understand why. Never was able to find follow up about it other than the original demos in a news broadcast

onetokeoverthe 4y ago
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yvdriess 4y ago
It might be a lack of a system or willingness to stick with it until it gets good. The manager championing it moves, Business shows a low TAM, there is a bad quarter and the CEO needs to appease investors, etc.

onetokeoverthe 4y ago

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AnonMO 4y ago

why is HP on the list? its revenues are on par or slightly below competitors in the sector and if you add the enterprise revenues its more of a 1 to 1. Hp consumer revenue 60 billion, HP enterprise revenue 30 billion in comparison to dell 100 billion and lenovo 70 billion in annual revenue the two include enterprise revenues which isn't spun off like with HP. All three are at peak revenues. Aside from that cisco, ubiquiti, nvdia, amd, intel(ish),LAM, AMAT, micron are the best in their fields honestly its seems like EU companies are in shambles not US take a look at ericsson vs huawei idk if the US has any real competitors in telecommunication hardware cisco is more of a networking company nowadays.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
The current HP is a tiny slice of their former glory. Most of the company is gone.
- AnonMO 4y ago
  Hows so? aside from not having FAANG clout Its literally the only company on that list that still grows yoy and its revenue has all but recovered since the down trend after the 2008 crash if you include the enterprise. Even the number of patents given has been growing
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > How so? It have been pretty deviating in Nov. 2015 when HP lost ewlett- ackard.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    They're missing Agilent, Keysight, their IC and LED fabs and other peripheral businesses.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Do you think spin-out is death?

AnthonyMouse 4y ago

> There's several things that seem to characterize many of these failures, the first is that when founders leave or die companies often seem to lose drive and direction, and second companies become too big and diversification seems to kill their R&D/innovation. The latter is the downfall of most conglomerates. Kodak invented the digital camera and then failed to capitalize because they were afraid it would cannibalize their film division. Which was true -- it did -- but then the digital camera business went to someone else. Leadership needs to be able to make hard calls like that before it's too late. Which founders tend to be better at than MBAs.

yawniek 4y ago

also olivetti, Italy who brought to market the very first personal computer.

Dig1t 4y ago

The west, particularly the USA, sacrificed so many industries on the alter of globalization. We gutted our workforce and told ourselves we were keeping the best jobs for ourselves. The loss of all those jobs and economic activity has contributed significantly to the wealth gap IMO. I don’t think that having lots of cheap trinkets available on Amazon has been worth it, to be honest.