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Replacing my MacBook Air M1 with a ThinkPad T480

• cptcobalt 4y ago
  This is kinda rad — I am primarily a "desktop" user (well, iMac), but I have the occasional itch to have a laptop that I barely care about, that doesn't need to be fast, just more capable than a tablet on the go. Maybe I pick up a used T480.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• abudabi123 4y ago
  No picture of the actual ThinkPad hardware, likely more IBM ThinkPad DNA loss by Lenovo. The Apple MacBooks have had a design change back to the future.
  • rozenmd 4y ago
    Hi, author of the article here, what do you mean by "likely more IBM ThinkPad DNA loss by Lenovo"? and thanks for the feedback - I've added a photo of the actual laptop now.
• KptMarchewa 4y ago
  No mention of insanely fast NVMe on M1?
  • mnd999 4y ago
    Isn’t that only because they cheat and make fsync an noop though?
  • rozenmd 4y ago
    The T480 I got came with a Samsung NVMe w/ 256GB capacity - I don't write enough to disk to notice the difference relative to my MacBook Air M1.
  • jeswin 4y ago
    > No mention of insanely fast NVMe on M1? It's only insanely fast compared to previous Macs. The commonly found Samsung 970Pro SSDs were doing read/write speeds up to 3,500/2,700 MB/s since 2018. And newer SSDs run circles around those speeds (like 10GB/s or more of read/write).
  • qwytw 4y ago
    Because it's not insanely fast? The 256GB is pretty slow (why is that even an option though?) the higher capacity ones have are considerably worse compared higher-end WD or Samsung2 SSDs and you can get a 1-3TB one for around $100-$300...
  • prmoustache 4y ago
    The lenovo also has NVMe. I use different machines, one with a regular sata ssd, 2 with NVMes and my work environment is on an NVMe enclosed in an usb3 to nvme box that I use on any of these 3 laptops. Honestly outside of a benchmark the difference is only really noticeable on the nvme + usb3 enclosure when it can freeze the whole desktop for a few seconds when doing a large copy. Difference between sata ssd and nvme exist but only if you are timing your jobs completions, not really on regular day to day use. Difference is definitely much smaller than the spinning to solid state. I guess this is pretty much the same between the m1 NVMe and a regular PC NVMe.
  • adriancr 4y ago
    Non-replaceable, when it goes bad then might as well throw away the laptop. Speed is also, what, 3GB/s?, I'm getting 7GB read, 5GB write speeds on my laptop.
  • diffeomorphism 4y ago
    You mean infamously slower? Wasn't that what the whole base model discussion was about? https://www.tomshardware.com/news/macbook-pro-m2-pro-mac-mini-ssd-downgrade https://www.tomshardware.com/news/macbook-pro-m2-pro-mac-min... The upgraded speed is then perfectly adequate, but slower than a standard nvme ssd by a factor 3 or so. What you are probably thinking of is the RAM instead, which is standard lpddr5 ram but integrated into the chip (i.e. the RAM is not faster, but bandwidth is better). At absolutely ridiculous markup though.
• grokkedit 4y ago
  > upgrades will cost you around $150 total on AliExpress I'm upgrading a thinkpad (x220) with new monitor and battery and a few more upgrades, so I have an idea of the cost of upgrading I'm sorry but the price of the upgrades is not that low, how do you get to that total upgrading: - monitor - wifi card - trackpad - battery that does not add up that said, I like the end result, and I'm really curious about the trackpad
  • rozenmd 4y ago
    ah I didn't count the battery in the $150 - apologies
    • oezi 4y ago
      I do own a T480 and Lenovo has stopped manufacturing batteries for it. You can get existing stock for horrendous prices or knock-offs.
      • znpy 4y ago
        Can confirm… just bought a thin battery for my x270 and paid about 100€ for an original one, brand new. Worth it though, the x270 is very slim and still featureful.
  • flatline-84 4y ago
    I've upgraded my x220 as well and it's good enough for basic dev work with about 8hrs battery life on the big battery. For the screen, are you using the Nitrocaster mod? I have it sitting here and the new IPS 1080p screen but I kind of regret not going for a 16:10 aspect ratio (which requires cutting the frame around the screen)
• junipertea 4y ago
  I love thinkpads but the T480 is basically objectively worse in every single aspect except price and repairability. I don’t think I can go back from all day battery and quiet CPU during high loads. I could definitely use my T450 for however long I need and know I can replace parts, but I’d rather have macs for 5 years and upgrade for another performance bump. Some things are just nicer
  • chinamn425 4y ago
    Lenovo warranty is fantastic.
    • lmz 4y ago
      What makes you think the Thinkpad in the linked article is still under warranty?
      • nehal3m 4y ago
        It might be. I used to order them for the business I worked for with 5 years on site warranty. Where I live that transfers with sale. T480 was sold into early 2019, so that would end the last warranty around early 2024.
        • lmz 4y ago
          Would you really replace the screen yourself on a laptop that's still under warranty?
          • nehal3m 4y ago
            They provide you with instructions, I don't think it voids warranty.
    • Benjamin_Dobell 4y ago
      Be that as it may, the author is in Australia. All MacBooks have minimum 2 years warranty. Display recently died on my MacBook Pro (M1 Max). Having to talk to a Genius rather than being able to book in the service online or via phone was infuriating. However, aside from that, warranty repair process was a breeze. They confirmed with me that all replacent parts have a minimum of three years warranty from the date of replacement. I get that consumer protection laws suck or are nonexistent elsewhere in the world, but since the author is in Australia this laptop replacement makes even less sense.
• kristianp 4y ago
  The newer models are called the Thinkpad T14, I believe. The T14 gen 3 has moved to 1920x1200 resolution, 16:10 ratio. One sodimm is soldered though, with one slot for memory upgrades.
• snemvalts 4y ago
  Be careful grabbing it by the corner like in the picture, it can flex the motherboard and cause the RAM to unseat https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/mh974q/for_everyone_experiencing_crashes_by_grabbing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/mh974q/for_everyo...
  • CraigJPerry 4y ago
    this is driving me NUTS with an old one i have. I never bothered to check why, i don’t use it often enough. It’s always been on my todo list to check into why. Thanks for the lead!
  • petemir 4y ago
    I had that problem for so long with a T490, I thought I was going crazy until I noticed the crashes always happened when I grabbed the computer. Luckily just re-seating the RAMs with some tough love made the problem disappear...
  • exitb 4y ago
    It doesn't always happen. I learned that the Thinkpad I just bought is prone to that behavior, but after months of not-so-delicate use it never actually happened.
  • tbran 4y ago
    I "fixed" this by using kapton tape to secure my RAM. Never had a problem. The mod in the link seems...risky. Kapton tape is the coppery-looking tape that tapes other stuff down inside a lot of electronics. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=kapton+tape https://www.amazon.com/s?k=kapton+tape
• 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  > 1366x768 that's a really weird choice especially when you want to doa comparison with a macbook. > Windows also suboptimal in my opinion. thinkpads are fantastic linux machines. i'm running Mint xfce on my 480 and really wouldn't know what could be better about the experience. there are only three things i like better about macbooks: screen, switching workspace with 3 finger swipe, speakers
  • rozenmd 4y ago
    In the article I mention that I upgraded to a 1920x1080 screen, and Pop!_OS...
    • 2-718-281-828 4y ago
      why do you even mention it then?
      • fmajid 4y ago
        Not the OP, but presumably to highlight the upgradeability of the ThinkPad.
  • asah 4y ago
    +1 Screen resolution is the top reason I stick with Macs. Once you gone retina, there's no going back and modern cellphones only reinforce this. It could be my aging eyesight, but I don't remember the last time I saw a pixel. Gamer laptops have the resolution but the price & weight are silly. Would love to be wrong - macos just feels klunky for linux development (slow homebrew, annoying docker, constant reminders to connect to apple cloud, etc).
    • 2-718-281-828 4y ago
      i used retina and now am back to 1920x1080 on my t480. no problem.
    • diffeomorphism 4y ago
• thom 4y ago
  I too don’t value my time very highly.
  • rozenmd 4y ago
    Care to elaborate?
    • weego 4y ago
      Ok here's the thing. I used to build PCs, and I'd tinker with linux distros on laptops. Things would be flakey, need maintenance and upgrading and that was fun. That's fine when you're laser focused on your career and are in 'career as personality' part of your life, which is essential imo and I'm not sneering at it by making reference to it in that way. But ultimately, I now need to get to my desk just on time, know my machine will work and not just be an opportunity cost sink, and get what I've scheduled done and then clock off when I need to. Now, that can happen with custom bits and tinkery bobs, but I'd much rather have the insurance policy of using what I personally have experienced as the most solid and reliable hardware/software combo in the business and not concern myself with the other stuff, even if sometimes it's more fun. I work on a 13" 2013 mbp i7/16g ram and 2021 13" m1 / 16gig ram and have never had a single issue with either that cost me work time. Having to install more stuff to then claim "it just works" isn't just working, it's adding more "oh it now doesn't work for some esoteric reason" to the chain.
      • rozenmd 4y ago
        and I totally agree, I used to work on macOS because everything would just work. Except Pop!_OS 22.04 worked entirely out of the box. I didn't need to even open the terminal to do anything except clone my repos.
      • gbN025tt2Z1E2E4 4y ago
        For a sizable segment of Apple's power users, this is really the core issue. Apple clearly has no love for power users for over half a decade, and thinking of going to windows after MacOS is a nonstarter, which really leaves the obvious choice being migration to linux until you start to seriously evaluate PC laptops along with realizing you're taking the onus of OS configuration on yourself ALONG WITH your work, as the previous commenter mentioned. That said, Ventura is such a bad MacOS release (and sign of things to come) that Apple has finally made it the pull off the band-aid moment for a lot of power user folks like the writer of the article, issues be damned. good -enough- will have to suffice. It's so tiresome that every single release of MacOS has fewer features professionals actually care about.
• me551ah 4y ago
  The thing that annoys me the most about M1 Macbooks is the lack of gaming ability. Even a basic windows laptop can play games like DOTA, Age of empires etc and so did the older macbooks. With M1, almost none of my games work.
  • kylec 4y ago
    While this is true, it's not really Apple's fault, most game makers just don't care about making their games Mac compatible. They don't even have to be Apple Silicon compatible, Rosetta does a surprisingly good job making Mac games for Intel playable on M1.
    • domh 4y ago
      It annoys me that I have a bunch of games on my Steam account for 32bit only macOS (Half Life 2, Team Fortress 2 etc) that just cannot be played on a modern mac. To be fair, Apple have gone through two CPU architecture changes since I bought them (Intel 32bit -> Intel 64bit -> ARM). Is this Valve's fault for not rebuilding the games, or is it Apple's fault for not making it work through Rosetta?
      • bombolo 4y ago
        Didn't apple also drop opengl support? It's not just a matter of recompiling the same source. It needs platform specific changes. Probably the investment isn't worth it for game makers, since apple might require them to do it all over again next week, potentially.
    • sdflhasjd 4y ago
      It is most definitely Apple's fault. There might be a chicken-and-egg problem, but it mostly stems from Apples really poor support for backwards compatibility. There's been a few times when it seems like mac gaming could be making a comeback only for something like 32bit support to get removed. Rosetta will not be around forever, and when it goes, game developers for the most part won't be rebuilding their old games for a new platform. The lack of good high performance graphics also deters "serious" gamers, and gamers are generally trying to get the most performance out of every dollar, which is just antithetical to everything Apple.
• ostenning 4y ago
  I've owned an upgraded T480 since they were released, run archlinux on it. It was a decent computer, but despite having upgraded the battery to the largest possible configuration and using all the tricks in the book to maximize battery life in linux - it sucked. The reality is these Intel processors are just a big inefficient hot mess. I ended up upgrading to the 14" M1 Max, and there is literally no way you can make a comparison of these two machines, they are worlds apart, build quality, screen quality, weight, battery life, single core & parallel processing, speakers, trackpad - everything. The only thing the TP wins is bang-for-buck on the second hand market, and getting head turns from neckbeards, thats about it.
  • me551ah 4y ago
    Can you run Arch Linux on the M1 Max natively?
    • dontbesquare 4y ago
      Linux 6.2: The first mainstream Linux kernel for Apple M1 chips arrives: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-6-2-the-first-mainstream-linux-kernel-for-apple-m1-chips-arrives/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-6-2-the-first-mainstream...
      • diffeomorphism 4y ago
        So, no. The headline is clickbait and basically just wrong.
        • opan 4y ago
          Asahi is based on Arch already, it's been about the only thing you can run until recently. But maybe you're dissatisfied with how well things work at this point.
  • noja 4y ago
    > and getting head turns from neckbeards Where is all this hate coming from? It seems unjustified.
• anonymous344 4y ago
  aside the hardware, when I changed from macbook (2019) to thinkpad, the biggest advantage and source of happiness is to never need to touche Finder again! It is horrible! the desktop, gui, cmd-tab, and whole user experience with 2 monitors (could not get 3 monitors to work) is just awful. With win 10 latest update it's a breeze
  • iakov 4y ago
    Interesting. I've switched from Win10 to Mac for work last summer and it's been great so far. IMO Finder and Explorer are both garbage with different colored glitter mixed in, but general experience of working on MacOs is so much better than everything my Windows and Linux boxes offered. This laptop has 16 gigs of ram (my windows workstation has 48), can run on one charge whole work day and then some, emits zero noise and is very responsive no matter how many tabs and live-reloading applications I have running. Super impressive to me.
    • Ancapistani 4y ago
      I'm in the same boat, I just got on it earlier. My first Mac was a mid-2012 MBP. I loved it, and it lasted until my then-two-year-old poured a glass of milk into the keyboard in 2016. I used various Windows machines for a while, then bought a new MBP in 2018. I had that one for less than a year because I realized I just wasn't using it much - I always had laptops issued to me for work, and a Linux box on Linode that I could SSH/RDP into. When the M1 came out I bought a 14" MBP. It's only got 8GB of RAM, but it's faster in actual usage for anything but graphics-heavy gaming than my (admittedly, aging) gaming desktop. I used to be fine programming in Windows, and that was before WSL/WSL2. These days the experience is much better but it's still easier just to dual boot or SSH/RDP. macOS, OTOH, has gotten a ton better in that time. There are a few nagging things I don't like but it generally just stays out of my way and lets me treat it like a Linux box with a nice, relatively consistent WM. I still have my Windows desktop because it's better suited for gaming and has better support. If not for that I'd be full macOS.
• buro9 4y ago
  This is replacing an old M1 Air, with an old T480 and upgrading bits. As a cost efficient way of getting a good computer this is a reasonably good reminder that other options exist and old ThinkPads were produced in unreasonable numbers and can be obtained easily on eBay (businesses selling off their old stock). For me, I've a work 3y refresh cycle coming up and a dilemma - an M2 Mac vs a ThinkPad X1. I just don't like MacOSX at all, and I do love Linux, and once in a blue moon because I'm a Director I need to delve into large Excel sheets that even an M2 struggles over but Excel on Windows does great at. I find myself seriously considering Windows 11 Pro on an X1 with WSLv2 for my Linux daily driver (it's not like I'm doing eBPF work and need a specific kernel capability). And this dilemma feels, weird. Because all I see is everyone with Macs. Still, the ThinkPad is likely to win - I have another 6 weeks to decide.
  • prmoustache 4y ago
    When you spreadsheet app struggle, tou know it is time to convert to a database. You'll work much faster with an sqlite database anyway. Even converting csv + perl/ruby/python is more convenient than that piece of shit of excel anyway. By the way libreoffice calc seem to handle better large spreadsheet files.
    • buro9 4y ago
      Spreadsheets are owned by Finance and Accounting - I'm in Eng and wouldn't be able to get them to let go of Windows + Excel.
      • prmoustache 4y ago
        You can still convert back your data to csv or xlsx once you finished your work on it. Most db clients actually support that.
        • realworldperson 4y ago
          [dead]
    • 4y ago
• seszett 4y ago
  I'm still not sure why. The section doesn't really answer the actual question. It's cheaper, good enough, replacement parts are cheap, and I understand that argument; I myself use alternatively some kind of very old Thinkpad (that I don't remember the specs of), a 2011 Macbook Air, or a recent Macbook M1 and for what I do with them (little more than running Firefox and ssh) the only difference that matters in practice is their screens. But replacing a Macbook M1 with a Thinkpad only makes sense if the Thinkpad is better in some aspects, not if it's just good enough. Otherwise you would just keep your somewhat better laptop and replace it later if you ever have to, right?
  • philipphutterer 4y ago
    It didn't say so in the post but I suspect 8GB RAM were just not enough and an upgrade was necessary anyway? And future upgrading was mentioned. In my opinion this is a valid point actually and should be very much considered when buying any of the modern all-fixed-no-upgrades machines, I mean its not just the Apple machines.
    • Reason077 4y ago
      I've used an 8GB M1 Air for the past 2 years and it's totally fine. My brother got the 16GB and there is no noticable difference in performance for any of my usual apps. Going from 8GB -> 16GB in an M1 just doesn't make much difference, except perhaps for a few specialised apps that require a ton of VRAM.
      • rr888 4y ago
        Thanks I've been debating this. 8GB just feels wrong but I hate to pay that Apple upgrade premium.
  • locallost 4y ago
    He was tired of Apple's shit, it sounds like a divorce to me. It's better in all of the aspects the author stated: price, ability to repair etc. All valid points, that are more or less or not at all important for other people.
• reidrac 4y ago
  I got a refurbished ThinkPad T470 for £200 and it is like new. May need to add more RAM (came with 8GB), but that's it. I don't really need to upgrade my hw often, only when it breaks and it is clear it was so outdated is not worth repairing it. OK, it all depends on your requirements, but I don't see myself buying a new laptop ever again. Both because price and cost to the environment.
• fbnlsr 4y ago
  I've replaced a Macbook Air with a ThinkPad T480, which I've upgraded with a 250 GB SSD and 16 GB of RAM, and a bigger battery. It's just the perfect laptop for me. The keyboard feels super nice (I don't like those arrow keys though), battery life is excellent, and the screen is sharp enough. Its only drawback are the speakers, but that doesn't bother me much tbh. Amazing laptop, couldn't recommend it enough.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• rbanffy 4y ago
  I do a lot of development work on a tiny Acer with 8GB of RAM and an Atom-class processor. Not fast, but fast enough. I rarely need to wait more than a couple seconds between editing something and seeing the results. And making it impossible to open lots of browser tabs is actually nice for productivity.
  • kramerger 4y ago
    Surprised you get downvoted for this comment... I've an insanely powerful (and expensive) laptop from work. But looking back, most of the work I'm actually proud of was done in really cheap laptops. Maybe success is more about being comfortable with the tool you have than having the most expensive tool??
    • rbanffy 4y ago
      It was a 600x1024 netbook screen that persuaded me to re-learn Emacs. Of course I'd prefer a ridiculously fast computer, with a fast CPU with dozens of cores, an insane amount of memory (not swapping is kind of important with SSDs) and a very fast SSD, but, in the end, I don't need that much of a computer. Would I turn down a 4th-gen Xeon or EPYC Genoa workstation if someone offered me one for free? Of course not! In fact, I like retro computing and I wouldn't turn down a TRS-80 (and, in fact, would be delighted to give a home to a VT-230/330 terminal or an ASR-33 teletype).
• fafhnir 4y ago
  [dead]
• hrchak 4y ago
  I was using T480s for 2 years at previous company, it was the worst laptop i ever owned. throttling, terrible battery life.
• zmxz 4y ago
  That's one awesome and cheap machine you got there, congrats, I'm really glad someone liked it and wrote a blog post about it :) I too am a Pop_OS user - it works, my reason for using it was nvidia drivers and getting GeForce to f*king work. As for M1 - I am really glad when people find what they like. But I really, really dislike Apple products. I hate the OS UI. I hate AppleID. I hate the fact I can't swap the SSD inside it. I just generally dislike any piece of hardware that I can't interact with. What if I want to have a RAID array with stupidly overpriced M2's? The synthetic benchmarks mean nothing to me and I don't feel the "speed" of M1 everyone tend to talk about. It also feels like every single Apple user suddenly became expert the moment M1 was released. It could be because I'm a dev and ex-gamer so I like fast things, so I bought myself an EPYC chip and a ton of other hardware for which everyone I know comment "but why? it's not like you can utilize all of it, why waste so much money?" - because I can. TL;DR: it's an awesome piece of hardware you got there, there's no need to use the best and the fastest and <insert reason>. It's enough to use something just because you like it or want to use it. This blog post just goes to show how powerful hardware we have, even the "old" hardware is still great.
• jansan 4y ago
  I am doing development on a T550 for the exact reason that it is not very fast. It is fast enough to develop my project, but the app that I am working on is quite resource hungry, so I want to make sure that it runs smoothly on the user's machine. There is no point in enjoying a super fast development environment when you later realize that there is a massive performance problem for your users.
• lhl 4y ago
  I've been running Linux laptops for years now and have been enjoying using (well, mostly poking around) with a Framework laptop, however, recently I've been doing a lot of long-haul travel and it turns out that the battery life on the Framework was really not cutting it on the road. I'd been meaning get an Apple Silicon Mac to play around with, and ended up picking up an M2 MBA before another long flight. Battery life was good in regular use (~9-11h so far), but what was surprising to me was how fantastic battery life was on the plane. On plane wifi, with much lighter use (lower brightness, mostly browsing, no file transfers or compiles), I used the Mac for 6-7h, and still had 50% battery life at the end of the flight. Also, it has had basically zero battery loss when suspended. I'm still using Linux on my desktop machines, but I guess I'm a Mac user again for travel...
• nicolas_t 4y ago
  The main reason I love my M1 is that it's cool to the touch after switching from an intel based mbp to an m1, I went from an average of 90 degrees Celsius (there was definitely an issue in the factory with thermal paste I think) to an average of 40-50 degrees Celsius. I can't imagine ever going back to an intel based laptop because of this (and in my experience, thinkpads don't run that cool for my uses with arch linux)
  • ge96 4y ago
    Haha my cat would sleep behind the 2019, not anymore with the 2021. I did prefer the 2019 design more though (thinness). When I first got the 2021 it seemed cheap/hollow to me.
    • barrenko 4y ago
      It probably is a bit hollow.
  • dijit 4y ago
    tbf it is a design consideration from intel: they openly consider that they are leaving performance on the table if they're not running close to 100C. Which, while great for a desktop, is very uncomfortable (and loud) on a laptop. So far I haven't seen a way to configure it, turbo boost is commonly not an option to disable in laptop bioses (at least not the Dell Precision I had).
    • nicolas_t 4y ago
      Yes, I won't begrudge them that choice on desktop but given the fact that most of the consumer market as switched to laptops, it's not a great strategy...
  • jeroenhd 4y ago
    Apple intentionally used terrible cooling, letting the CPU passively heat up rather than spinning up the fans because they didn't want or couldn't figure out how to deal with fan noise. The chassis got hot because Apple decided that was the better alternative. Intel's approach of "just send more power through the chip to make it faster" is definitely worse than Apple's own chips, but Apple has neutered their laptop CPUs for years. Had they gone with a modern cooling solution, the difference in heat wouldn't be so noticeable.
• DarthNebo 4y ago
  I'd rather stick with 2X perf, 15+hrs of battery life, better trackpad, keyboard, webcam at not so different price point after all the upgrades OP did..
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• dools 4y ago
  I got an M2 MacBook and the battery life is insane. As for any maintenance issues, get AppleCare and live a happy life. I run my macs for 6+ years and only retire them when apple stops releasing OS updates for them.
  • afgrant 4y ago
    I’m in the same mindset. My 2009 MacBook got regular OS updates until 2017, then security updates until 2019. I replaced that one with an M1 Air and it’s been smooth sailing.
  • quijoteuniv 4y ago
    I then get those macs put linux on them and use them another 6+ years :)
• Octabrain 4y ago
  I needed a new laptop and due to that, I've recently spent quite a lot of time browsing reddit, various forums and this sacrosanct place, trying to find information about experiences with laptop's brands and configurations. I ended up purchasing a Lenovo P15v AMD due to its upgradability and internal ports (RAID capability, non-soldered RAM memory) but was very close to get a Mac M1/2 laptop. I ditched the idea in the end because I want a fully functional Linux system on it. I don't like MacOS at all (I have enough having to deal with it on my company assigned computer) but I have to admit that the quality of their devices is beyond anything on the market, also the simplicity of their product lines. Anyways, if one day Linux reaches the point where it's fully compatible with the M* series I am not gonna have second thoughts on purchasing one, right away.
  • KyeRussell 4y ago
    I think I saw something about kernel compatibility just the other day. No idea what the other pieces are the puzzle are.
    • fmajid 4y ago
      The Linux 6.2 kernel released yesterday has official M1 support. It takes a lot more than just the kernel to have a functional machine: GPU and (W)LAN drivers, power management support, etc. But we are getting closer.
• kylec 4y ago
  I'm all for pushing back on the idea that just because it's "old", that it's useless and needs to be replaced. Lots of old machines are still perfectly good at a lot of stuff, and can be had and upgraded for cheap, which is awesome! However, there's no way to slice going from a M1 MacBook Air to a ThinkPad T480 as anything but a downgrade. The screen is worse, the CPU is worse, the battery is MUCH worse, it's thicker, heavier, the list goes on. If the author of the post is happier with his new laptop, that's great, but this isn't really a path it makes sense for anyone else go follow him down.
  • diffeomorphism 4y ago
    Heavier? A 14 inch macbook pro is 1.6kg. The t480 is 1.3kg and the non-s weighs the same as the macbook. So what are you talking about?
    • phrz 4y ago
      The T480 with a battery is 1.6kg, or 1.8kg on the extended pack. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T...
      • diffeomorphism 4y ago
        Yes, that is why I wrote "same as macbook". And a T480s is 1.32kg https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480s/ThinkPad_T480s_Spec.PDF https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T...
    • kylec 4y ago
      The M1 MacBook Air is 1.29kg
      • diffeomorphism 4y ago
        Then you would be comparing with the X models of the same size, which start at 0.9kg https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Nano-Laptop-Review-Less-than-1-kg-for-the-Business-Subnotebook-with-LTE.517858.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Nano-Laptop...
• joshvince 4y ago
  This is cool, but I think you lost me when you said “it just works out of the box” about your OS. I mean, sure, but you’ve had to order a new screen, touchpad, battery and RAM. That’s a lot of boxes to work out of
• sgsag33 4y ago
  I would never buy a Apple laptop. You don't know what it does as its a closed system. But even heavier for me counts the fact that you can't replace its hdd which will fail after years of usage no matter what. Also you will not receive any security updated after seven years. Don't give up your freedom just because of laziness!
  • pancrufty 4y ago
    You can replace it now.
    • sgsag33 4y ago
      Officially? Would be surprised as its soldered to the motherboard!
      • okamiueru 4y ago
        Well, you can still replace it. You just have to replace the parts attached to it as well.
        • sgsag33 4y ago
          Which is the logic board aka the computer itself... that's not very sustainable for sure.
          • okamiueru 4y ago
            Indeed. I was being facetious
• gigatexal 4y ago
  M1 to T480? Odd. I plan to go thinkpad to M series once all the Asahi Linux work is complete and upstreamed so I can run Fedora on it just as well as on x86.
• sschueller 4y ago
  The biggest contrast here and what we should be concerned about is the fact that this old Thinkpad can be upgraded and still be used vs an old macbook that if speced too low is now useless and ends up on a landfill. Not even considering that new macbooks if locked are unusable on the secondary market and get tossed even if the hardware is perfectly fine. It's as if we have given up on "solving" climate change in favor of short term profits...
  • nicbou 4y ago
    In practice old MacBooks tend to have a much longer useful life in my experience. I'm working on a 12" Macbook and I love it. It's still decently fast for.the lowest specced Macbook from 6 years ago. It supplements a 2017 Macbook Pro that's still overkill in 2022. Both have excellent battery life. If it wasn't for the nearly free upgrade I got in 2017, I'd probably still rock a 2012 model.
    • LtWorf 4y ago
      In practice my old macbook fell apart after 4 years and I've since stopped buying them. Now I also don't need dongles, nor a dedicated charger.
    • kdtsh 4y ago
      I've got a 2012 MacBook Air which I bought second hand (maybe third or fourth hand, or more?) for $300 a couple years ago. The hinge is floppy probably due to being dropped several times, the FaceTime is busted, I replaced the battery but it still runs out in less than 2 hours, and I don't think macOS even gets security patches for the version it's running - but install Linux and it's _fine_, plus it's tiny. I could probably run it as a rudimentary media server if I didn't already have one, or palm it off to a young kid who doesn't care that it's a bit banged up, or use it as a machine of last resort. I don't use it like I use my M2 MacBook Air and would never suggest someone daily drive it unless they had no other choice, but I can't justify throwing it away because it's completely solid and still works. I could also probably get $100-150 out of it if I really wanted to sell it - if anyone can tell me of another 10 year old laptop with resell value like that I'd like to know. I don't think I've owned a non-Apple laptop for more than 3 years, with the exception of a particularly long-lived Lenovo laptop I got in 2013. Every other one has had critical hardware die that I didn't feel inclined to replace mainly due to costs outweighing benefits. Except for a few weird years in the late 2010s, Apple makes stunningly reliable and long-lasting hardware in my experience.
• dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  I also do all of my development on various ThinkPads I've owned throughout my life: T480, T490, P51.. I like cheap, upgradeable laptops over Macs since: * I can put what I want in them. I don't want to pay Apple 200 euros for 8GB of RAM. * It's not a treasure. I take care of it because it would be annoying to have to replace it, but my wallet wouldn't cry over a cheap second-hand machine * They run Linux well * My P51 has a Quadro dGPU that can play basically all games before 2018, which is enough for me (and better than what a M1 can do) I literally don't see an advantage to owning a M1 besides better resolution (why people want a trillion pixels on their screen I don't get also. I can see perfectly fine without 4K) and build quality.
  • danielbln 4y ago
    The main advantage is the CPU. The M1/M2 are blazingly fast, and basically never get even warm. I have to _really_ crunch the machine to even hear the faintest hum of the fan. Battery lasts for ever, it's like a phone, charge once a day if that.
    • kuschku 4y ago
      In an ideal market, you could buy a T480 with an M2 CPU. Which would be a much better laptop, for a much better price. It's only due to market distortions due to big players trying to be anticompetitive that we're stuck with this choice.
    • celsoazevedo 4y ago
      Before getting my 2021 16" MBP with a M1 Max, I'd read comments like yours and get the idea that I'd be able to encode video without it getting warm :-P This is not the case, at least not with the M1 Max. It does get warm if we push it hard for a few minutes. This could be easily avoided if Apple started the fans at low speeds earlier, but instead they let the SoC run at 80-90ºC for 2 or 3 minutes before the fans kick in at low speeds and that heat needs to go somewhere. There are 3rd party apps that let you control fan speeds, which is what I do. With this said, coming from a 2019 16" MBP (Intel) it was a huuuge improvement. The damn thing would get warm doing basic tasks. At full power, it would throttle even with the fans at 100% and because the Intel processor was allowed to use more than the 100W the computer could take, any very long tasks would drain the battery. M1/M2 macs are nothing like that.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• contingencies 4y ago
  Also Aussie, also won't be buying another Mac. Issues I have include: crapstore, refusal to upgrade XCode which makes the hardware soon-useless (at least brew is complaining), and three different upgrades that killed third party USB drivers (one killed my favourite keyboard, one killed my non-Apple branded USB network adaptor, and one killed connectivity with some CHxxx UART driven microcontrollers). I would say quite seriously that Apple is no longer suitable for development. I will be focusing on Linux desktops again from now on.
• 2b3a51 4y ago
  I suppose it depends on your 'good enough' threshold. I'm quite happy on a stock Thinkpad X220 (7 row keyboard) but I don't do anything especially demanding. Many here would find that machine limiting.
• karuzel 4y ago
  Where do you get your knowledge about spare parts?
  • jeroenhd 4y ago
    Upgrading RAM and storage is obviously trivial. The battery as well, that just requires buying a bigger one for the same model. As for the screen and trackpad, Lenovo has extensive documentation on their website detailing how to replace components, all the way down to the type of screws you need should you lose some. The compatible parts for any of their model can be found on their website. Although the OEM parts are usually more expensive, you can usually find them online in various shops. If you go for the aliexpress route, just searching "screen for thinkpad t48" will get you a bunch of screens of varying quality.
• aftergibson 4y ago
  My work laptop is an M1 Macbook, if I could, I would happily move to my personal Thinkpad x230 running Kubuntu.
• pella 4y ago
  > Intel® Core™ i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz × 8 this is only 4core/8thread https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/124969/intel-core-i58350u-processor-6m-cache-up-to-3-60-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/124969/...
  • fmajid 4y ago
    And Intel's multithreading is notoriously weaker than AMD's SMT.
• cookieswumchorr 4y ago
  my laptop is plugged into a docking station at home as well as in the office. i only ever use it bare while in meetings, or travelling. So definitely no need for a mac in my case
• kosikond 4y ago
  I have both T480 and M1Pro 14", and let me tell you once you go Mac, you don't want to go back. I am keeping the T480 for some Linux/Windows workloads, but that is it. MBP is just better in every regard. And even though I have maxed out batteries (plural) with 98% health on '480, MBP has twice the battery life.
  • rickette 4y ago
    Exactly, build quality and noise levels of mac are so much better. Not to mention the OS.
  • code-blooded 4y ago
    Because these are not exactly comparable. I have Thinkpad X1 Carbon which is more comparable and I'm easily getting 8+hrs of battery life. But the real benefit is that it runs Linux. It's just a more productive environment for a power user. Docker uses little CPU, tools are the same as on my server, desktop environment is actually better and much more configurable. Last but not least I'm not supporting a walled garden, which is a deal breaker for me in the first place.
• cybuerg 4y ago
  Crazy how much hate this post is getting.
  • LtWorf 4y ago
    If you lack a personality, what computer you use is a good replacement :)
• rvz 4y ago
  Yeah. I would have done the same and would skip buying the M1 MacBook Air, or just replace it with a M2 MacBook instead one rather than downgrade to a ThinkPad.
• andirk 4y ago
  I think most of us use Mac because it's the breed standard. If it was something else, then we'd all use that.* * Obviously not Windows though. A linux flavor
• klelatti 4y ago
  > I wanted a cheap travel laptop I could replace without blinking an eye at the price. I live in Europe, Thinkpads are the most common enterprise laptops I see while travelling. I might even slap an asset tag sticker on the cover to make it even more inconspicuous. Fair enough - this seems like the key rationale. But given the amount of effort tinkering to get to an acceptable machine, I’d wonder if there isn’t a machine that can be replaced at short notice ‘on the go’ that would represent a better compromise?
• mgranados 4y ago
  > I'm tired of Apple's ecosystem, Apple ID, not being able to change any individual part of my laptop, being charged $200 USD for 8GB of RAM, being charged $200 for 256 GB of SSD, and so on aleluya
• ljosifov 4y ago
  I too got myself 2nd hand T480 + upgrade (for a 2nd work laptop). Mostly b/c I need the 64GB RAM. Other than that put 4TB SATA SSD + 512GB NVME in the WLAN M.2 slot, new batteries to 72Wh. May change the screen now I read this - the original really is bad. Usually I put Xubuntu LTS b/c "it just works", but may try PopOS next time. Want my laptops cheep & cheerful, don't particularly fancy thinking of/them expensive, irreplaceable and in need of complicated warranties/support.
• jbverschoor 4y ago
  > ...alt-tabbing doesn't lag (it did on my Intel-based MacBook Pro 2019), ... Yeah, unfortunately this is by design. cmd-tab behaves different depending on how long you hold the cmd or tab key. cmd-~ is instant, and with stage manager it switches through apps. He could've also just installed windows arm preview on the M1, or asahi
• spaceman_2020 4y ago
  I currently use a ThinkPad T480. I switched from a Macbook after they started using those godawful butterfly keyboards. The keyboard was my primary motivation for switching. But apart from the keyboard, the rest of the laptop simply doesn't hold up. The battery is mediocre, the trackpad doesn't even fall in the same league. Windows is a hot mess and Ubuntu, while good for dev work, is just too user-unfriendly and filled with tiny annoyances. I'll be switching back to the newer MacBook soon.
• mrzool 4y ago
  > for contrast, a little bit of dust can break an Apple butterfly keyboard Butterfly switches have been discontinued by Apple in 2019, Macs with Apple Silicon do not have them.
• avidphantasm 4y ago
  What’s next, and article about replacing your 2020 Prius with 1995 Chevy Cavalier?
• suction 4y ago
  [dead]
• clircle 4y ago
  I have various dells and think pads from work that i just install Linux on and use for personal stuff. I want to buy a m1 mac, but given that my free handmedowns keep humming along, i cant justify the upgrade
• codeulike 4y ago
  Everyone is aghast
• criddell 4y ago
  > I've had quite enough of Microsoft's constant nagging to upgrade to Windows 11 I’m surprised he’s seeing a lot of nagging. That machine can’t even run Windows 11.
  • jeroenhd 4y ago
    You think that stops Windows 10 from showing popups? I get those every time I boot Windows on my 7700k. At first I thought they relaxed their requirements and clicked the ads to see what it'd do but then it would just tell me my machine is incompatible. I think they've fixed their detection recently but there are still references to Windows 11 all over the place.
    • Ancapistani 4y ago
      Better still - I upgraded my gaming desktop with a new CPU the day Microsoft messed up the upgrade detection for Windows 11. The first time I booted it with the new CPU it showed me the "Upgrade to Windows 11" screen for the first time. I though "Oh, cool, my CPU must have been the bottleneck. Sure, go for it." Turns out, it was just coincidental timing and my desktop lacks TPM. It's still running Windows 11 and I've not run into any issues, but AFAIK I won't be able to re-install it if I ever format the drive.
      • jeroenhd 4y ago
        If you ever need to reinstall there are ways to disable those checks entirely and run Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. No guarantees in terms of stability or security (who knows, Microsoft may just assume that certain modern instruction sets are available), but it's not entirely impossible. I've fought Windows enough that I'm not going to upgrade to an OS Microsoft tells me won't run stable on my hardware, but plenty of others have tried and succeeded in ignoring the limitations without a hitch… for now, at least.
• fmajid 4y ago
  I don't think so. Time to recompile the newest p7zip (using this as an example because it dropped yesterday): - My M1 Macbook Air, 16GB RAM: 11s - My M1 Ultra Mac Studio, 128GB RAM: 6s - My HP DevOne (AMD Ryzen7 PRO 5850U, 64GB RAM): 51s - My home server (HP Z2 Mini G4, Xeon E-2176G , 32GB RAM): 17s - my Gigabyt Aorus 17G gaming laptop (i7-11800H, 64GB RAM): 35s On GeekBench the DevOne should be faster than the Z2: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/16189462?baseline=819357 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/16189462?baseli... and comparable to the M1 MBA: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6428909?baseline=16189462 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6428909?baselin... Two conclusions: - GeekBench is an incredibly flawed benchmark - The M1 MacBook Air is an incredible machine, even more so when you consider it's a laptop. Now that M1 support is in the official Linux 6.2 kernel, I hope running Linux on Apple Silicon will soon become mainstream and usable. If the rumored M2 15" MBA comes out, I am totally getting one.
  • eertami 4y ago
    How are those the only two conclusions you came up with? If all other independent benchmarks and data points to the 5850U being roughly comparable in performance to the M1 - yet for you it appears to be 5x slower, then surely that suggests an anomalous result, or at the very least, an edge case that is not indicative of real world performance. The third, much more plausible conclusion: - Your testing method/setup is flawed or broken in some way.
    • fmajid 4y ago
      Different OS (macOS Ventura vs. Pop-OS), different compiler (LLVM/clang vs. GCC), different storage (internal SSD vs NVMe M.2), different filesystem. Running with full CPU parallelism in both cases, however. In fact the test was biased against the Mac because the M1 MBA was running on battery power and the HP DevOne was plugged in. Still, 5x worse performance at a real-world task that most closely approximates my use case is a significant difference.
      • rfoo 4y ago
        Different OS, different storage, different filesystem are all fair as you can say you are testing the laptop as a whole, so what was preconfigured matters. Also generating totally different code (compiler outputting x86_64 vs aarch64) is fair, because that's part of a real-world task. However, LLVM/clang vs GCC is too far and made the benchmark result completely nonsense. How can you make sure it isn't just that LLVM/clang is faster than GCC? Or even makefile detected clang so turned on different compiler flags.
• petodo 4y ago
  I am uisng T520 as my work computer, used also wife's brand new T14 and honestly besides the thickness of the body the experience was underwhelming, there is pretty much zero reason for me to upgrade to newer much more expensive Thinkpad which will save me what maybe <5% of my time by being hardly any faster at anything I do. Now she got some new company Macbook and man that's one horrendous keyboard and lack of connectors, I think you cant even plug there regular USB (A) key.
• Reason077 4y ago
  > "I once spilled an entire can of beer onto a Thinkpad X220. The fix involved a screwdriver, a sponge, a $50 replacement keyboard" I once spilled half a glass of red wine all over my M1 MacBook Air keyboard. The fix involved quickly turning it upside down, sponging it off, and letting it dry out. OK, some of the affected keys were rather sticky afterwards and required popping off the keycaps and cleaning underneath. Some of them are still not perfect and I need to have another go with some isopropyl alcohol. But it certainly didn't require buying a replacement keyboard!
  • maximus-decimus 4y ago
    As a counter point, I spilled a gigantic can of energy drink on my t420 and my fix was literally doing jack shit, not even shutting down the computer because the laptop had drain holes. A key was sticky a bit I guess.
• ofalkaed 4y ago
  Just got myself an X13, love the screen ratio and the keyboard is almost as good as my old T42 which finally died. Not thrilled about everything being soldered on but every TP I have owned has outlived its own usefulness so I am not too concerned, even my $250 e11 is still going strong all stock and just shy of 10 years old. First computer with AMD and first computer with a remotely decent GPU which is kind of fun but I don't really need it. So far my favorite TP since the T42. I do wish they would release another e11 that is not a yoga, going to miss that computer when it finally dies.
• huijzer 4y ago
  It’s an interesting fight which Apple is taking on with the ARM chips. Basically everybody else, including Microsoft, Dell, HP, and Intel, would like to see Apple Silicon disappear to not lose market share in their x86 devices. For example, GitHub to this day still does not support GitHub Runners on Apple Silicon. In turn, this makes it way harder for developers to compile aarch64-darwin binaries.
• footlose_3815 4y ago
  It all depends what your use case is. Also, rant on how Apple was once my favorite, and now I hate them as much as 90s Microsoft. (M$ is no angel either with all their telemetry...) I manage macs at scale, and I notice they are getting worse and worse. After managing 150 Macs as MDM admin, I want Mac to get off the train they're on and start being predictable again. Intel macs run like crap now, while the M1s chug along nicely. I'm convinced Apple bakes engineering obsolesce into their old products to keep you on that 3 year device renewal period. They got sued for it more than once for the "Battery throttling" on the iPhone, and likely one of the only times they will ever get caught doing it. And they had an excelent PR push of "Battery health = performance, not my fault" We've had to straight-up replace fully-decked-out 2019 i7s with 32GB ram because they run so badly with modern software. Our graphic designer has a $3000+ laptop that is useless for their job. Massive fuckery is going on, because these are powerful machines. Why suspect malice when you can suspect incompetence? Apple has a track record of lying about their throttling, so I assume there's a culture of it and it pads their bottom line. The T480 is looking great, other than the bad keyboard they adopted after they killed-off the last genuine thinkpad keyboards. An optional video card would have been great for the T line, but you'd have to go with W or P for that I think. I don't trust big companies in General, but Apple makes too much money for just a computer and software company. Their ecosystem's walled garden and "we know better" settings are repellent to me, and I've since given up my iOS device for LineageOS so I can use my hotspot without it automatically turning itself off (They surely know better about my hotspot practices).
• dontbesquare 4y ago
  Linux is now ready to run on modern Macs. Linux 6.2: The first mainstream Linux kernel for Apple M1 chips arrives: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-6-2-the-first-mainstream-linux-kernel-for-apple-m1-chips-arrives/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-6-2-the-first-mainstream...
• taylodl 4y ago
  It's been 11 years since Apple first released non-upgradeable laptops. Can we get over it already? If you want a laptop that you can upgrade then don't buy an Apple. If you don't like Apple's ecosystem then don't buy an Apple. This has been the advice for over 10 years now. There's nothing new here.
  • javaunsafe2019 4y ago
    But as it’s bad for the environment it’s even more important in 2023 to keep complaining about it.
    • taylodl 4y ago
      But as it’s bad for the environment Is it? Thanks to the increased reliability that non-upgradeability confers I'm still using my 2012 MacBook Pro as my daily driver. I suspect there's a lot of minutia to tease out to verify whether this claim is actually true in the global case.
      • Nullabillity 4y ago
        How often have you had the sockets fail, compared to the components themselves?
      • schwartzworld 4y ago
        2012 MVP was a solid computer. I've been supplied MacBooks at work that have all been newer and less reliable.
        • ibz 4y ago
          2012 MBP was indeed my final reliable Apple product. I "upgraded" away from it unfortunately (because jobs always paid for these things) which resulted in me throwing away at least 3 newer models, which simply stopped working. I'm gladly off Apple for 2 years now!
        • taylodl 4y ago
• nafizh 4y ago
  I bought a framework laptop 1 year ago, and trust me when I say I tried everything out there to improve the battery life on Ubuntu. It was still so bad I was always worried about the battery draining out, not to mention, just closing the lid doesn't work. Eventually switched to an m2 mac air. I barely have to think about the battery now, so I can focus on the actual work, and when work finishes I just close the lid.
• gen220 4y ago
  I was a ThinkPad maximalist in my personal computing life for the last 5ish years. This year, I needed to interview for jobs without having access to a "work" laptop for the task (i.e. an overspecced MacBook Pro). Faced with the prospects of subjecting my ThinkPad/vim machine to video calls, I more or less immediately decided to fork over the money for an M2 MacBook Air. Unfortunately for my identity as a person invested in my principles, it's been a delightful experience. I'm glad that I have my ThinkPad (and its stack of batteries) in the closet – it'll always be there, and work exactly as I want it to. But I can already tell I'm going to drive this MacBook into the ground over the next 10 years. I know that I won't be able to repair it when it (eventually) degrades, but the diff of convenience in day to day ops pays for that inconvenience, in my experience. YMMV.
  • djtriptych 4y ago
    It's such a consistent experience I don't think you even need the YMMV qualifier. Source: I also own an M2 Air and have been blown away by it's performance in "day to day ops" as you call it. It is by a wide margin the best laptop I've ever owned (previous 6-7 laptops were all personal/work macbook pros)
    • gen220 4y ago
      I mainly attached the qualifier to account for the cost of one's "inability to repair when [the MacBook] eventually degrades". For some people, meditating on this reality causes them a great deal of consternation. As somebody who consternates on that topic myself, I empathize with it deeply. For people possessing a will more galvanized than my own, no improvement in day to day ops is worth the pain of working on a platform like this. I don't think my experience speaks to them. For people like you and I, who are willing to seriously consider the trade-offs, and for whom the up-front money isn't an immediate concern, I agree it's almost a no-brainer. I think it speaks equal volumes on Apple's ability to produce world-class hardware at scale, and on software vendors' collective inabilities or unwillingness to produce quality videoconferencing software that works gracefully on older technology.
• notjulianjaynes 4y ago
  Anyone with a T480 or similar gen Thinkpad should make sure the thunderbolt drivers are up to date, there was a firmware bug that caused the USB-C chip to be overwritten everytime a new device was plugged in, causing premature failure. The thunderbolt/c port is part of motherboard and not replaceable by itself. I own a T480 and only one of the C ports is usable even to charge due to this.
• hochul-azul 4y ago
  The only reason I elect Apple is because it has an OS that isn't Windows and isn't Linux. I spend a lot of time fixing other people's operating system problems, I don't want to do it at home. There is no way I will ever again run Linux as a daily driver. I had to do it a decade ago, and it was fine. It isn't fine now.
• cameldrv 4y ago
  Regarding the non upgradable battery, one thing a lot of people don’t know is that you can charge your MacBook with a USB power bank. The typical phone power bank only puts out 10W, but this is usually enough to maintain the internal charge while you use it on an Air, and to at least very significantly extend the lifetime on the Pro. This has come in handy for me on a long flight where I unexpectedly didn’t have power at my seat.
  • kube-system 4y ago
    For a little bit more money, there are a good number of of power banks that output just as much as normal Air wall charger.
  • thatfrenchguy 4y ago
    15W at 3A 5V actually is the maximum over usb-a. USB-PD powerbanks are a thing these days but it's useful in a pinch.
    • jrmg 4y ago
      This is actually enough to power the laptop and trickle charge! I’ve had a M1 Pro and now have an M2 Air plugged into my weirdo USB-C monitor that only provides 15W power(!), and unless I’m heavily compiling all day (like change-compile-change trial-and-error), the laptop does slowly charge. Even on the heavy use days its never actually run all the way down.
• SaintSeiya84 4y ago
  Is not like newer Lenovo's ThinkPads are much more upgradable than an M1 you know?
  • bufferoverflow 4y ago
    Yes, they are.
    • SaintSeiya84 4y ago
      citation needed
• browningstreet 4y ago
  Regarding Lenovo: I bought an original Macbook Air. It always worked well. As it got on to about 10 years old, I took it in to an Apple Store a couple miles from my house and asked if they could replace the battery. The battery worked pretty well, but I figured.. the machine was going strong and if they still had batteries in stock, I should grab one now and the laptop will live even longer. They replaced the battery for $99 and when it came back (3 days later), they also replaced the motherboard for some reason. I don't know why, but basically, aside from the screen and the keyboard, it's a new machine. I still use it today -- the only thing I can't really do on it is edit 4K video. Two years ago I bought a Lenovo gaming laptop for my son. A couple of weeks ago the keyboard stopped working. We bought a replacement keyboard and swapped it out. Still didn't work. So, something on the motherboard. When we called and asked about getting it fixed, they said it wasn't in warranty anymore and the price to diagnose and replace the broken part couldn't be estimated, nor could they estimate how long it would take. We'd have to ship it to a third-party repair center. So my son is walking around his college campus with a Lenovo laptop and an external keyboard, for a laptop we bought 2 years ago for almost $2,000. So, no. No Lenovo for me. And given my previous stupendously negative experience with Dell (they couldn't repair 2 brand new machines that were shipped to us with broken WiFi and took so long to declare it unrepairable the machines couldn't be returned either -- two machines bought together had to be reported in separate calls to tech support and the third party tech support people who came to the house weren't very knowledgable -- calls disputing the non-returnable declaration took so long to return and were bounced among so many unhelpful people at Dell Headquarters they basically convinced me to give up, buy third-party wifi cards and live without Bluetooth in these machines), no Dell XPS laptops for me either. On those experiences, I'll only spend my own money on Apple laptop hardware.
  • ndiddy 4y ago
    In my experience, Lenovo is basically two different companies for their Thinkpad and non-Thinkpad machines. If you have a Thinkpad and have a warranty issue, they'll overnight you a shipping box with an overnight label. I had an issue with mine that needed a motherboard replacement and I was only without my laptop for 3 days. Meanwhile, I had a similar issue with a non-Thinkpad laptop and they emailed me a UPS ground shipping label, expected me to provide my own box, and quoted a turnaround time of several weeks. I ended up buying another of the same model of laptop and returning the defective one instead.
• Razele 4y ago
  Men will literally buy Thinkpads over going to an Apple store. Self-delusion. Thinkpads and Dells are not good computers…
• bedast 4y ago
  > for contrast, a little bit of dust can break an Apple butterfly keyboard I might be wrong, but weren't these discontinued prior to Apple Silicon macbooks being released? If so, why is it noted if he's talking about an M1 Macbook Air?
  • _justinfunk 4y ago
    You know why.
    • bedast 4y ago
      Elaborate.
      • bittercynic 4y ago
        I think it's more about Apple's hardware frequently being very fragile in certain ways that higher-end thinkpads usually aren't. They've had the crumbs-in-the-keyboard thing, that may have been resolved now, but Apple's laptops seem to have had an extreme sensitivity to moisture going back to at least 1999. There are many advantages to Apple's laptops compared to others, but I think it's worth considering areas where they fall short when you're choosing your next machine.
      • sneak 4y ago
        It's generic Apple-bashing from someone who mistakenly believes that x32/x64 laptops with 6-7 hour battery life were the pinnacle of computing. The keyboards in the M1/M2 mac laptops are among the best ever shipped in any computers. They are absolutely not the janky butterfly ones Apple shipped some years ago. Mankind has not made a better machine than the M2 MBA, seriously.
        • bedast 4y ago
          Definitely a subjective opinion and not a matter of objective fact. I dislike the keyboard, personally, and macOS does not meet my needs for personal use (I use an M1 Pro Macbook Pro 16" for work and find it to be fine).
• Hippocrates 4y ago
  Am I crazy? The author writes > It's not as insane of a downgrade as it sounds. And then goes on to describe assembling a Frankenstein laptop that has specs and ergonomics that pale in comparison to the MacBook's. This sounds like a truly awful computer to me, but if your only goal is to spend as little as possible and get user-serviceability then I guess this is one way to go.
  • smoldesu 4y ago
    On the bright side, he did avoid spending $200 for the 16gb RAM upgrade.
    • ribit 4y ago
      For RAM that's around 3x slower. I mean, if it works, it works, but it's hardly something to boast about.
      • rejectfinite 4y ago
        RAM speed does not make up for capacity. If you need a lot of RAM for VMs or Docker or loads of tabs, getting lower capacity, but higher speed RAM is not a substitute.
        • Hippocrates 4y ago
          For loads of tabs it does. For docker or VMs maybe not. Requiring a large amount of fully allocated RAM, like 8G+ seems like a deficiency in the software/dev environment, and definitely an edge case. In my whole career I've not needed that, but seen some poorly done dev environments configured with 4G+ VMs, so I don't doubt it can happen.
  • TheBigSalad 4y ago
    I think he means the experience of using it. And the price was much cheaper.
  • gruffin 4y ago
• gspencley 4y ago
  I have to use an M1 for work with 32GB of RAM. While I have no doubt that the hardware is quite powerful, it is the slowest FEELING machine that I have ever used in my life. Every personal device of mine runs Linux on much older / weaker x86 hardware; one of those systems dual boots Windows 10, and they all provide a snappier user experience than just spinning up a web browser on the M1 that I use for work. I have no idea why this is, and when I complained about it we ran benchmarks and non-scientific tests (i.e: let's see how long it takes to compile something) to compare my system with my coworkers to rule out something defective - they had the exact same numbers. I suspect it's software related. The difference between Linux and OS X is night and day, but even Windows 10 on a ~5 year-old desktop (can't remember the CPU off hand but it's an Intel) feels much snappier.
• jeffbee 4y ago
  I don't understand the thought process where a laptop has insufficient battery life (the author tripled the size of the battery to compensate) but the user also added 16GB of memory they did not need, just in case. Do people not realize that RAM uses energy?
• megous 4y ago
  Funny how quickly people lose all sense, and just start quoting personal anecdotes as something relevant, especially when argument is something global like environmental effects, or when comparing brands. Yeah, Bobby is using his $2k Macbook Farty Air for 10 years, and poor Johny got his $300 Lenovo Shittop broken after 1 year and couldn't get a replacement in 1 day overnight eco shipping. At least compare somehting relevant, like return % numbers in e-shops or some actual research/data published by repair centers. Something with N > 2.
• zinxq 4y ago
  Last year I upgraded to a Thinkpad Carbon. Almost immediately, I couldn't stand the keyboard. This sent me down a rabbit-hole of what was wrong with the keyboard (as it looked almost identical to my previous Thinkpad). The answer is that Thinkpad has slowly evolved their keyboards to be slimmer. Reducing the travel on the keys with each step. Some of the new ones are down to 1.3mm of travel. I realize this is a personal preference, but I noticeably make more errors under anything less than 1.8mm of travel. Hence, I got rid of the Carbon and bought a Thinkpad T14 Gen 2 which is pretty much the latest model with 1.8mm. The Gen 3 was available, but they trimmed it down to 1.5mm. I realize this is a pretty picky hill to die on, but I can't express how significant it is for the reliable use of keyboard for me. I'll be buying T14 Gen 2's until I die it seems from here on out. Everything else about the laptop is just fine. Runs any linux I throw at it, 4k screen if desired, all the upgrade-ability I might want. (If you get lucky, you can even find one with a proper Ethernet port. Some come without because apparently during the chip-shortage, they removed that feature)
  • nehal3m 4y ago
    Is the Gen3 keyboard compatible with Gen2? If so you could upgrade to a Gen3 and swap out the keyboards.
  • __anon-2023__ 4y ago
    Where did you get the info about the key travel? I have an X1-Carbon Gen 6 and I feel that the key travel is good, but I wouldn't mind a better "click" feeling when I hit the keys, like in a Macbook or a Surface.
• turtlebits 4y ago
  If I have to replace components to get a baseline usable machine (and am not able to buy one off the shelf), that is a hobby project and not something I can depend on to daily drive. As I've gotten older, that is not something I care to futz around with anymore. (also applies to the periodic OS reinstall)
• tomxor 4y ago
  Welcome to the dark side. After enduring a decade or more of Apple, tasting the modicum of control and self determinism you gain from a cheap x86 + linux as a developer, makes it hard to look back. People getting over the threshold of trying is understandably hard due to how easy it is to become entrenched in the ecosystem. Also bad past experiences of getting linux running probably don't help, but it's a very comfy place to be as a dev these days, and pretty much guaranteed to be smooth with certain hardware like a TP.
• ribit 4y ago
  I wouldn't be able to do it. I spend a significant part of my day in front of the computer and having to deal with a poor ergonomic of a budget tool would drive me very frustrated. I also have no desire to tinker with my computer or the installation. But I think it's great to hear these stories and to know that there are people for whom these kind of decisions work.
  • TheBigSalad 4y ago
    This is how I think. People go crazy over these laptops and all I can think is "how the heck do you work on a laptop all day?"
• oneplane 4y ago
  So in other words, just like most "switched from X to Y" stories: it depends on a lot of factors and there is no one-size-fits-all. In this specific case however, the issue is much easier: author wanted a collection of components, not a packaged experience. So in other words: if the device is the goal (or having a collection of components), you might not enjoy an Apple product. If you want a specific experience, then a product that is just a collection of components (and experienced as such), then you might enjoy an Apple product. Semantics would suggest that 'anything is a collection of components', but that is not the point, the point is how the experience is different. Some components are experienced as a group/list/collection while others are experienced as a product. Which one fits you best varies from person to person and job to job.
  • Angostura 4y ago
    I thought the basic summary at the end said a lot: "I wanted a cheap travel laptop I could replace without blinking an eye at the price."
    • oneplane 4y ago
      Oh yeah, it definitely did. But as someone else here posted, even a 10 year old MacBook Air would work out, it reminds me a bit of the netbook days, but without the hardware being so hobbled by Intel requirements (i.e. only 1 DIMM allowed in NetBooks). But from the general comments you can glean that people still seem to think in terms of "one has to be absolutely better than the other". At best one could argue that the mass-market enjoys one thing more than the other, but even that depends on where you are located in the world and what skills you have. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the OLPC project had a western version where kids start out with one of those, that would make both cases even clearer (i.e. some would not enjoy doing work 'for' the device instead of doing work 'with' the device).
• marbell 4y ago
  At least a ThinkPad with type-c Power supply, all old types are passed.
• tristor 4y ago
  My experience has been that there is only two reasonable ways to buy a laptop for personal use: 1. Buy an Apple device new. 2. Buy a Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell Latitude refurb/used via their outlet stores from their business line-ups With #2, you know exactly what you're getting, but you're getting it cheap, and the parts are possible to find (e.g. eBay) to fix it yourself. With #1, you know exactly what you're getting, and you're paying for a premium experience that you'll actually receive and isn't a sham or bait n switch (like it is with "premium" PC products). I have a stack of laptops on my desk because I physically separate the different types of work that I do (for many various reasons). 2 are Thinkpads, 2 are Apple, and one is a Dell Latitude. All of have been solid for years. My newest laptop in the stack is an M1 Macbook Pro 14" with the M1 Max, and it's FANTASTIC, it's easily the best laptop I've owned since I retired my /IBM/ Thinkpad T60p. There is no reason anyone should ever subject themselves to the torture that is buying a laptop "intended" for "consumers". There is no reason anyone should ever pay full price for any non-Apple laptop, because they all make annoying trade-offs that are only acceptable when you buy them cut-rate.
  • FpUser 4y ago
    >"There is no reason anyone should ever pay full price for any non-Apple laptop, because they all make annoying trade-offs that are only acceptable when you buy them cut-rate." I buy gaming laptops from ASUS. All are solid, last forever and even though I bought those new were very reasonably priced. Other than not being paper thin I see no trade offs but I will not pay extra for thin laptop anyways. I use those as portable desktops so the size does not matter. What does matter is that they have proper cooling and can work at 100% performance for hours non-stop without thermal throttling.
    • softfalcon 4y ago
      I agree. In my experience, trying to balance "thin" and "gaming power" together in the same device is a recipe for disaster.
  • adverbly 4y ago
    Are you me? I have 3 refurb linux laptops strewn around the house, and my last 3 workplaces have always provided a macbook of some sort. One difference: For gaming/GPU heavy stuff, I still have the good old windows, full-tower desktop kicking around. Repairing/upgrading desktops is honestly easier than ever, so I've been happy to keep one in service for the odd game or two.
• nkotov 4y ago
  I don't upgrade my computers (or my phones) as much anymore so serviceability isn't as important to me. I have both a MacBook Air M2 and a T480 and I love the flexibility. Most of what I do is on the M2 but every once in a while, I run into edge cases such as printer drivers that only work on Windows or upgrading video production firmware.
• wdb 4y ago
  Sometimes I wished Apple would make macOS available to other manufacturers or able to buy it as a customer. I would be happy to pay $200+ to get a license of for it on a non-Apple hardware.
• rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  Lenovo's anti-consumer behavior makes Apple look like a charity with a perfect rating on www.charitynavigator.org. It doesn't matter that he's running Pop!. Strong aftermarket sales lead to value retention which drives new sales, and Lenovo's 2023 position seems to be to generate as much ewaste as possible, especially in their workstation and server lines. Between secure boot "oopsies", rampant (and ongoing) GPL violations, constant spyware campaigns, and vendor locks for CPUs every time I see someone at a FOSS conference with a Lenovo festooned in stickers I chuckle inside because they're oiling the same machine they're raging against.
  • commandersaki 4y ago
    The Lenovo spyware is what made alarms go off in my head, even when I wanted a Linux laptop. I decided on a Framework instead; happily use a Framework, a 2015 Macbook Pro 13", and a 2020 M1 Air 13". All have their uses and all work pretty well; but Framework has the worst battery life of them all -- but at least it's not an evil company like Lenovo.
• lmedinas 4y ago
  It's an interesting post but i guess at the end it all ends up because the Author got tired of Apple and wanted to use Linux. Through the post its difficult to find another reason, specially when the Mac is clearly superior in nearly all the points mentioned: screen, battery, CPU, etc... Regarding MacOS i use it for years (I do have machines with Windows and Linux at home) as my main Desktop OS and im also getting frustrated with some Apple decisions lately. But for a plain Desktop/Workstation OS MacOS at the end does everything Linux does at the end of the day its a matter of taste. With Laptops i think Apple still has the edge, on Workstations, you can build a damn good PC with a Ryzen 7x and an NVIDIA/ATI GPU and have lots of advantages compared to a Mac Studio for example.
• miklosz 4y ago
  Last year I finally put my old 2012 13" MBP to rest. I have been using it for 8 years for work, commuting with it to work. 8 years of plugging it in and out at the office and at home. Then it was used by my daughter for another two years for home school during the pandemic, Zoom + Chrome. 10 years of daily usage. Could not ask for better machine. After that brief period with 2016 15" MBP and now base M1 Pro that I plan to use for at least another 3 years at least. Sure, HDD upgrades would be nice, but I can live with the Transcend card in the SD Card slot as an expansion for file storage. Every now and then I think about getting second-hand X1 carbon as a machine I don't need to care about when travel. But then again, MBP + iPad Pro with universal control works so well it's like having a second screen on the go. I don't think there's another system that be near this level of integration. This thread has been very good source of information. It confirms my conviction that the Apple ecosystem of devices is unparalleled. No need to think about TP's
• nickstinemates 4y ago
  These days, the hardware of the laptop rarely matters for me. Battery life and screen legibility is what matters above all else because I do little to no compute on the actual device itself. To that end, I like the Mac M1 Air and the Framework laptops. Nothing beats the battery life of an M1 Air that I have found. What really sold me was my first trip with it, flying from Amsterdam to SFO. Left hotel 3 hours early, 2 hours in airport, entire plane ride (10 hours), uber 1 hour home. Constant use, 60% battery life used. However, my usage is probably atypical. All of my machines, even my phones, belong to a big tailscale vpn. That means everything is accessible everywhere, no matter where I am. Remote development is a simple as VS Code Remote SSH. Files/media/etc are also readily available. This is a thin client approach, and really opens up my options.
  • ihattendorf 4y ago
    Do you ever find yourself without reliable internet connection and unable to develop/watch media/etc.? Any issues with data caps?
    • nickstinemates 4y ago
      Not really. I am very far away from home right now - live in SF bay area, on a trip in northern Alaska. Have 2 cellphone providers, Google Fi and Verizon. Between the two even when in Denali national forest I had cell reception. Spent the afternoon yesterday writing code, had zero issues. Airplanes are hit or miss, but can take advantage of HN/reddit reading time or read a book (preferred) if access is limited. As for data caps, no issues at all. Family of 5 on unlimited internet plan. The 5gbps internet I have is mostly underutilized in terms of 95% usage, but fully saturated when transferring big files between different devices.
      • nickstinemates 4y ago
        Fate is funny. I just received an alert that there's a power outage at home. UPS is keeping things alive for a bit, but given PG&E's track record....... Annoying!
• 10xDev 4y ago
  Remember you are only hurting yourself, not Apple.
• trieste92 4y ago
  I feel torn here between FOSS principles and the quality of MacBook ux. Also the amount of performance you get per dollar It used to be, you bought an Apple product and got less performant hardware for a higher price. Now it's the opposite. I have no idea how they do this so well. Maybe by vertical integration of hardware, OS, and user level services all under the same roof
  • emodendroket 4y ago
    I think the design philosophy of Apple Silicon is probably the future.
    • trieste92 4y ago
      I wonder if vertical integration of software and hardware is also the future
• themadturk 4y ago
  Macs don't have butterfly keyboards anymore. I don't want to know the amount of crap that has drifted or fallen into my M1 MBA keyboard over the last couple of years.
• gigel82 4y ago
  I don't really use laptops so have no horse in this race; but during the pandemic I was forced to set up a separate WFH desk and I used a Windows laptop and an (i7) MacBook Pro side-by-side, hooked up to 2 external monitors and sharing a keyboard / mouse with Barrier. Despite the machines having similar specs, I find the Windows machine snappier (even with all the Intune / VPN / spyware bullshit built-in) and really only use the mac as a browser box. Anecdote: browsing was super slow on the mac even though it's sitting right next to the Asus laptop and using the same WiFi network, so I bought a couple of USB Ethernet dongles. I found it surprising in 2021 that I need to download drivers and reboot the macOS machine to install an USB Ethernet dongle; Windows just picked it up in seconds (yes, it wasn't an Apple branded Ethernet dongle, just sorted by most popular on Amazon and with advertised macOS support). If I ever need to purchase a laptop for myself (though I don't have a reason for it), it will most definitely not be a mac.
• thedudeabides5 4y ago
  Plus, now you can use Excel hotkeys like a boss.
• Sugimot0 4y ago
  I have a t480s i7 24gb ram 2tb ssd, bought it used about 3 years ago, added all the components for i think <300, used it for work for about a year. Used it for everything from compiling big projects, to image and video editing, usually with 10s of tabs of firefox open, even played a few light indie games on it. Maybe it's just the Arch Linux factor but I've always considered it a reasonably capable laptop especially when compared to macs of the same age that are dead and useless by now, or comparably priced new laptops like the chromebooks.
• teleforce 4y ago
  What not to like about T480, the 'Last Mohicans' of the ThinkPad laptop generation with replaceable components i.e. battery, RAM, etc. The most glaring weakness probably the screen come by the default 1080p but that can be upgraded as well. I recently bought a used one around USD$250 and with further USD$200 it will be 64GB portable workstation beast. When working at the office simply connect it to to the docking station and you have access to all the wonderful display of 2K and 4K monitors.
• apricot 4y ago
  The world runs on old Thinkpads.
• thewileyone 4y ago
  My biggest complaint about Macs is the lack of backwards compatibility of the OS and apps. It always comes to a point when the OS won't support your hardware and then the apps won't be supported on the older OS. This has a much bigger effect with the advent of cloud services.