24 ms·

Windows 11: a spyware machine out of users' control

485 points by jlpcsl 4y ago

LeoPanthera 4y ago
Meh. This is a content-less article, that seems to be exclusively about how many DNS requests Windows 11 makes on first boot. Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why.
- nehal3m 4y ago
  It’d be great if the OS told you the how and why in plain English.
  - pathartl 4y ago
    While I realize it's not a solution to the issue you raised, it's worth pointing out that Microsoft does a decent* job of documenting the types of telemetry taken across the Windows platform: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-... * When I say decent, I mean this absolutely should be the bare minimum, but this type of thing feels rare in the industry.
  - MikusR 4y ago
    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic-data-viewer-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic...
    - nehal3m 4y ago
      That would work for anything MS considers diagnostic data, but that is not a complete picture of what it's sending and why.
      - smileybarry 4y ago
        Couple that with monitoring the vast amount of ETW logging providers Windows gives you, and you'll see why. E.g.: the WinHTTP provider of who (PID) contacted where including URL, DNS ETW for lookups and who (PID), etc.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    It'd be even better if it allowed us to turn it off completely.
- bakugo 4y ago
  > Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why. Might have something to do with the fact that the data is almost certainly encrypted and the OS is closed source. If I install a piece of software and it immediately connects to 20 random servers without asking or even telling me, for purposes other than to directly provide advertised features, I'm going to assume that those connections are being used to extract my personal data and the burden of proof is on the developer to prove otherwise.
  - DethNinja 4y ago
    Wouldn’t transparent TLS with self signed certificates solve this problem? I’ll definitely try this in couple of weeks but I can’t be the only person to try this to uncover exact data that is being sent via Windows telemetrics. Another alternative would be remote debugging the kernel and hooking into some of the undocumented API calls but that would take lots of effort.
    - horsawlarway 4y ago
      Just spin up Fiddler with a generated root CA on the device. Or if you don't trust the network stack on the OS - point the thing at a MITM proxy and trust the self-signed CA in the certificate store. It's really not all that hard to view https traffic... ex: https://www.telerik.com/fiddler/fiddler-classic https://www.telerik.com/fiddler/fiddler-classic
    - ormax3 4y ago
      something like this using mitmproxy (from 2017): https://www.softscheck.com/en/blog/windows-10-enterprise-telemetry-analysis/ https://www.softscheck.com/en/blog/windows-10-enterprise-tel...
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Look - I'm not really a Windows fan (almost exclusively on linux these days) but they ARE providing advertised features. Like - honestly - the machine is a fresh install of Windows, what exactly is the data you think is being exfiltrated? In most cases... there's just nothing there. At best, someone now knows that ip x.x.x.x is running windows version y.y.y.y, and possibly that the user account is z. And honestly - all of those pieces of information are actually reasonable to send when providing advertised features (such as weather data in widgets, or local news). There's literally just nothing else on the device to grab yet... There's no browsing data, there's no app usage data, there's no documents generated. It's a blank fucking OS outside of the MS account you signed on with. So again - without talking about the actual data in the requests (and not just a dns record...) this isn't really a helpful conversation to have.
- user3939382 4y ago
  > what data is being sent, if any Obviously the Windows crapware isn't doing explicit DNS lookups for no reason, they're implicit because it's making requests.
- jmclnx 4y ago
  That could be because Microsoft encrypts the data, I would be shocked if the data being sent was not encrypted. To to me, this means M/S could be grabbing everything and sending it across, fo example browser history, files accessed, info typed into your edge browser, etc. No way to tell and no way to dispute this except for trusting M/S. So, in reality, people should dump all M/S products.
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    Maybe it's encrypted, or maybe the data they're sending is not noteworthy and you're just assuming the worst?
throw10920 4y ago
Is it just me, or is the original source actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI? It doesn't seem like the article provides much extra value over it...
- amatecha 4y ago
  The article definitely provides extra value: I was able to get the gist of the stuff without having to watch a video :)
  - efreak 4y ago
    Wait, there's actually someone else out there that likes reading articles over watching videos? I thought I was alone here.
    - amatecha 4y ago
      Oh yeah, I dared to view the video and, lo and behold, the last 1.5 minutes of the video is an advertisement. Video content may as well not exist - I view it begrudgingly if no alternative is available.
IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
Is there a tried and true instruction to prevent windows 11 from running updater at all? I keep losing sensitive work because of the windows penchant to reboot at times when im not at the PC, causing my tabs and docs to be lost. Edit: yes im aware we need security patches but id lile those on demand, not randonly
- alar44 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - codehalo 4y ago
    I think the poster is referring to the loss of desktop state, not necessarily the loss of unsaved documents.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
    Do you have a PC? Are you aware how user-hostile is Windows to even allowing you to turn on your computer without creating an MSN "account" [0] Are you aware that not every user on HN is a software engineer that is comfortable with changing registry values? Its 2023. Empathize with your user or see your startup go dead without funding
    - alar44 4y ago
      Registry values? It's pretty easy to tell Windows when to do updates. This is nonsense.
      - ihateyouall123 4y ago
        You sound like a person who buys ugly Walmart jeans because they are cheap, efficient and economical and then wonder why no one talks to you.
        efreak 4y ago
        People who refuse to talk to me based on the looks/branding/cost of my clothing aren't people I care to talk to
heywherelogingo 4y ago
I couldn't even install windows 11 - it had some issue with my account, couldn't log in. A couple of hours wasted just trying to log in... no.
- grugagag 4y ago
  Blessing in disguise
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Someone1234 4y ago
This whole article is just a description of this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI This video is substance-less, they hooked up Wireshark, watched packets fly past, most of which were DNS lookups, then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself. Most of the traffic is generated by Windows 11 widgets[0], which I'd suggest disabling either way. Do I like what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11? Actually, no, I'm pretty unhappy with it. But I hate how lazy most of these critiques are. They do so much irrefutably bad stuff, this is the best you can come up with? [0] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/stay-up-to-date-with-widgets-7ba79aaa-dac6-4687-b460-ad16a06be6e4 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/stay-up-to-date-...
- zamalek 4y ago
  > then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself It would be one thing if it was all MSFT domains, but scorecardresearch.com is pretty terrifying from a data sovereignty perspective. > which I'd suggest disabling either way. This isn't alarming because of how it affects tech-savvy users, it's alarming because of how it affects average people.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    The widgets are a [bad] wrapper on bing.com. bing.com uses those analytics products. Yes, it should be disabled by default, just like a lot of unacceptable practices on Windows 11. Just don't need to shoot a video with Wireshark running and talk through DNS lookups to get to that critique.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      The video was useful and informative.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > Just don't need to shoot a video with Wireshark running and talk through DNS lookups to get to that critique. Or, you could do that. Why shouldn't that be done again?
BirAdam 4y ago
I wish that the ameliorated.info project were producing up-to-date scripts for win10 and win11. Personally, I refuse to run Windows because I find it incredibly annoying. I do not believe that Redmond is doing anything nefarious to people via their PCs/software other than milking them for cash, but the UI changes I find to be going the wrong direction, the update mechanisms, the ads, etc… are all annoying, and I even find the notification system annoying.
ifyoubuildit 4y ago
I've been using linux on my main machine for quite a while now, but I usually keep a windows machine for games (though I hear linux gaming is pretty good these days, so hopefully I can go that route before windows 11 becomes mandatory). I liked windows 7, but always felt annoyed at being coerced onto more and more disrespectful versions of windows over time. At this point, I wish I had something like a throwaway vm or docker container for anything I need to run in a windows environment, like people use for malware research but more convenient.
- fest 4y ago
  I set up a windows VM proxmox with GPU passthrough for exactly this reason. With parsec for remote access it is very usable even with my less than ideal LTE uplink for the occasional need for Windows.
- the_cramer 4y ago
  Aside some AAA title and rare edge caves, gaming on Linux is quite good. Some tinkering necesary and of course wine, but it works. Sincerely, a fresh Linux User with not much knowledge.
  - snuxoll 4y ago
    As somebody with a Steam Deck it's seriously impressive what Valve has managed to do with Proton. I didn't catch the memo about the Samsung 980 Pro failure in time and my Windows 10 drive just went readonly on me, and if it weren't for SteamVR not being supported on Linux I'd seriously be considering just...not reinstalling Windows again. Once the day comes that the last few gaming issues I have on Linux go away I will probably let the Windows install rot and daily drive Fedora or Arch again.
    - 1ark 4y ago
      I concur. I use my PC 8-12 hours a day, for many activities including work. Occassionally I have gaming stints, which can include VR. That is just not enough to justify having to be limited and bloated at the same time by Microsoft Windows. I took the plunge a few years ago and went for Linux as my daily driver. When I want to play those VR games I dual boot. Not looking back.
aquir 4y ago
I wish I could use Linux but a very trivial task of "keep my second screen usable when I close my laptop lid" is apparently too much to ask :( OK, I have a discreet GPU, bit still!! Tried 5 different distros with different window managers, the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS
- Avicebron 4y ago
  For what it's worth, I have a lenovo thinkpad and this behavior was somehow baked into it for both windows and linux (ubuntu).
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  I had a weird experience in that the second screen(s) (connected via a USB dock) would be laggy if the chosen 'primary' monitor was not the one directly connected to the computer (either built-in monitor for a laptop, or directly connected via HDMI / DisplayPort). If the primary monitor was one of the two connected to the dock, they would be horribly laggy. That problem seems to have gone away, but I've changed machines and Linux distributions since then. I think it was with Ubuntu and using a Toshiba Dynadock.
- NayamAmarshe 4y ago
  > the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS Used to happen on my nvidia laptop, you can try filing a complaint. One possible solution is to set the GPU to performance mode in Nvidia XServer settings.
- efreak 4y ago
  I know there's settings for suspending in logind.conf and also in dconf, but no idea what controls what happens when you close the lid and do nothing, I use my old laptop exclusively through a screen sharing program that keeps the screen off, and it works fine, so it might actually be the graphics driver. If it's just the CPU scheduler being changed, you could always figure out a way to run your own command when the lid closes, to revert the changes to the way you like it a few seconds after the lid closes. https://askubuntu.com/a/1140362 https://askubuntu.com/a/1140362
jimbobimbo 4y ago
"Using Wireshark to check what a freshly-installed copy of Windows 11 was doing on a brand-new laptop, what they saw was eye-opening to say the least: just after the first boot, Windows 11 was quick to try and reach third-party servers with absolutely no prior user permission or intervention." I highly doubt that "absolutely no prior user permission or intervention" happened here. Most likely didn't read the EULA on that "freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  Is that really permission? It's that or not use the laptop, right?
  - jimbobimbo 4y ago
    There're other laptop/OS manufacturers that may serve needs of privacy-conscious folks better than Windows laptop. Whether one likes it or not, there's no constitutional right to use this specific laptop/OS combination.
    - nsxwolf 4y ago
      Yeah, but maybe consumers should still be very vocal about it.
      - jimbobimbo 4y ago
        They definitely should. But also they should NOT make misleading claims like "absolutely no prior user permission or intervention". Look, it's not that $1T company needs my defense, but it's a rather safe bet that CYA exercise was done by them before unleashing this to the world.
- grugagag 4y ago
  > freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables. Isn’t that what the most non tech savvy / common user has to deal with? A mom or pop, a relative perhaps? And if it’s possible to de-junk windows 11 why bother? Who has time for that whack-a-mole game of turning things off and have them back on when the system updates? Again, why bother? Windows 11 doesn’t anything compelling to justify wasting my in the first place
ajmarsh 4y ago
There are options. https://github.com/TheWorldOfPC/Windows11-Debloat-Privacy-Guide https://github.com/TheWorldOfPC/Windows11-Debloat-Privacy-Gu...
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  Also O&O's ShutUp10 [1] which also works on Windows 11. It's not as complete as some of the scripts on Github but also only changes things known to not affect the usability of the OS. And it has a happy-clicky UI and prompts the person to make a snapshot first. I can attest to it quieting down the telemetry on W10/11 for my gaming machine. I still play certain games on Windows These tools should be run after any big patches from Microsoft as they may change settings. ShutUp10 will show a diff of what features were reset. [1] - https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
PrimeMcFly 4y ago
Windows 10 is going to be my last windows with how MS is acting. 10 was annoying enough to configure to disable so much cruft, get back a decent startbar, disable all the telemetry etc, and much of it still sucks like not being able to have control over updates. 11 with forcing an account, forcing updates, stupid shit like nerfing the taskbar etc...there is just no need for it anymore. Games run fine on Linux via proton, or the ones I want to play at least. The rest of my toolchain and app library is all opensource stuff that runs on *nix. NetBSD or Void Linux with a custom configured AwesomeWM setup here I come.
- barbariangrunge 4y ago
  As a game developer, I’m stuck with windows for the foreseeable future. The major game engines technically work on Linux but the experience isn’t smooth and the companies don’t want to invest in improving it If they did, I’d switch back to Linux so fast— I actually really like gnome and miss the interface. It’s a dream for people who never want to touch their mice
  - Zardoz84 4y ago
    Godot
    - isthiseasymode 4y ago
      I believe they mean that the user base is mostly on windows. All of the major game engines already work with Linux and even MacOS. If they want to make money, they need to develop and test on windows.
      - dontlaugh 4y ago
        The tooling doesn’t work on anything other than Windows, for both Unreal and Unity.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
phendrenad2 4y ago
I tire of this never-ending slander against Windows as being "spyware" when those saying it can't be f*ked to even prove their own point. "It makes HTTP requests" is the latest laziest slap-in-the-face low-effort "attempt" to prove this. Yawn. Personally I like Windows 11 and am amused by people like this.
- ninjagoo 4y ago
  So what's your theory on why a fresh Windows PC needs to connect to all these 3rd parties at all?
  - NayamAmarshe 4y ago
    Premise: - Microsoft is a good corporation. - Microsoft will never break your trust because of the above point. - Microsoft is old. - Microsoft can never do wrong. - People who dislike spyware are criminals.
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    There isn't enough evidence to make a decision, and your insistence that a decision mist be made despite limited information, when no one seems interested in getting better information, is frankly bizarre.
    - ninjagoo 4y ago
      > no one seems interested in getting better information Because there is already enough information here. It's a "Personal Computer". There is no reason (that is in the best interest of the PC's "Owner") for it to connect to "Data Research" 3rd parties with a fresh install of Windows.
      - phendrenad2 4y ago
        Funny how the goalpost always moves from "prove that they're sending meaningful tracking data" to "just prove that they're connecting to a 3rd party".
mixmastamyk 4y ago
These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on? Just to answer, I can guarantee that geolocator and marketing research pings are not there for "no reason whatsoever" aka coincidence. No, they are not just being friendly. Someone on the other end is paying for that server capacity. The capacity to handle billions of requests from Windows users. Without lots of value creation, MS would be hit with a lawsuit from the folks being DDoSed.
- ninjagoo 4y ago
  > These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on? It's a distraction, an attempt at deflection. The real question here is: why do these fresh Windows installs need to connect to "Data Research" 3rd parties at all?
- amatecha 4y ago
  Well, unless I'm missing something, DNS lookups are of zero consequence, no? The ISP's domain name server returns an IP for the domain name lookup, and then what? Does the OS actually hit the server, or...? If nothing else happens, why would we care? Unfortunately this article/video did nothing to actually substantiate what they're suggesting.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Why would a program do a DNS lookup without going to the address? DNS is done automatically by the socket.send() API on demand 99% of the time. Code to do lookups with no send/read are written by nobody besides developers of DNS servers and the dig tool. "They're must be doing something almost no one would ever do!" More importantly, the author never said it only does DNS lookups. He just filtered for that to keep the amount of data manageable for illustration purposes. DNS lookup is usually the first step in opening a connection. Do you have any information that the author(s) are lying? That it is only DNS requests? Given the hundreds of similar confirmed news stories? Dark patterns? The NSA slides pre 2013? My guess is not. And easy to reproduce if needed. My guess is that these connections don't go away with more use. Why are we talking about this? Proverbial red herring.
SaintSeiya84 4y ago
there's a bunch of Microsoft employees doing damage control here....attacking the messenger and not the message.
- macintux 4y ago
  > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
causi 4y ago
I'm much more prone to working with a busted Windows installation these days rather than just reinstalling because of what a nightmare it is hammering Windows 10/11 into usable shape. With Windows 7, it was just install, ungroup taskbar icons, show hidden files and file extensions, set accent color to black and turn off transparency, then go down the list of installers in my software folder. With Windows 11, fuck, I don't even remember all the esoteric damn steps I have to do. I'm going to have to write it down the next time I have to do it.
- nehal3m 4y ago
  If you go down a list of installers you might want to give Ninite a shot!
  - metadat 4y ago
    I'd never heard of Ninite, it looks potentially quite useful: https://ninite.com/ https://ninite.com/
    - BizarroLand 4y ago
      You may also like RuckZuck https://www.ruckzuck.tools https://www.ruckzuck.tools
  - JackGreyhat 4y ago
    If you use ninite, you might want to give chocolatey a shot ;) https://community.chocolatey.org/ https://community.chocolatey.org/
    - ntpeters 4y ago
      If you use chocolatey, you might want to give scoop a shot ;) https://scoop.sh/ https://scoop.sh/
  - t0bia_s 4y ago
    Win11 has winget build in. It let you update all installed programs in batch. There is also chocolatey or scoop. https://winget.run/ https://winget.run/ https://scoop.sh/ https://scoop.sh/ https://chocolatey.org/ https://chocolatey.org/ For those who don't like command line, there is WingetUI: https://github.com/marticliment/WingetUI https://github.com/marticliment/WingetUI
M95D 4y ago
Why is this treated as news? I knew there was spyware when I first saw it in Windows XP - the "search online for drivers" option pre-enabled which would have sent my exact PC's configuration to Microsoft servers. At least back then it could be disabled and there were 3rd party firewalls that could filter outgoing connections. I skipped Vista. I only connected Win7 to the internet once and I saw how the firewall completely failed to block outgoing connections. Since then, I keep my Win7 behind a filtering proxy with no direct access to internet. Only firefox has the proxy password. Did anyone look at the Win7's scheduled tasks? It's an absolute nightmare.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Congrats on seeing this early, but most people are still unaware.
  - Xeamek 4y ago
    No, most people simply don't care about some esoteric 'privacy' when giving it up offers them much more comfort and ease of use. It's always been this way, and will always be.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      Many things about Windows we are talking about today are not about comfort or ease of use at all. Several of them substantially downgrade the experience.
- efreak 4y ago
  Windows 7+ firewall is entirely capable of blocking outbound connections by default. It's not hard: https://superuser.com/a/268909 https://superuser.com/a/268909
- fernirello 4y ago
  How do you deal with updates (ideally, at a time of your choice)?
nathants 4y ago
first step after reinstalling windows is always flipping every toggle in: https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer
ninjagoo 4y ago
When I signed up for the waitlist for the New Bing (with ChatGPT), I was offered an express lane with this copy: "Access the new Bing even faster" "Get ahead in the line when you complete the following" "1. Set *Microsoft Defaults* on your PC" "2. Scan the QR code to install the *Microsoft Bing App*" Microsoft Defaults and Microsoft Bing App were links, which I didn't click, and there was a QR code below the second one. Make of that what you will.
- someNameIG 4y ago
  Wonder if you have to do both, I DL the app but I only have Macs so can't do the MS defaults thing.
- jamesholden 4y ago
  For what it's worth, I did try this out. Downloaded the little Bing desktop enforcement app and everything. Also on the phone. Signed in on both. Returned to the 'access' faster page. Nope, just same old 'Do this process to get it faster!'. So it was completely pointless. Unless they mean, jump the queue, and it's in a couple days? But it doesn't _say_ that really. So I dislike this little thing they pulled here. It could be biased too, as I was recently reading about this: Five Walled Gardens: Why Browsers are Essential to the Internet and How Operating Systems Are Holding Them Back. https://research.mozilla.org/files/2022/10/Mozilla-Five-Walled-Gardens.pdf https://research.mozilla.org/files/2022/10/Mozilla-Five-Wall...
vmoore 4y ago
I use Windows Privacy Dashboard[0] to patch Windows 11 for privacy. There are many others like it, but I found this app intuitive and the ability to grab the latest telemetry block-list is great (Windows 11 introduces new and undocumented telemetry hosts all the time). I primarily use Windows 11 for gaming and for Office 365. For anything sensitive, I use various Linux distributions. I also have a spare Windows 11 virtual machine (VM) for testing purposes and it's completely offline. I like to try out different Windows software in the VM and have it offline because some software I don't trust and I acquired it from sketchy sites, or it could be phoning home and sending sensitive data to some random server. [0] https://wpd.app/ https://wpd.app/
rejectfinite 4y ago
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
atraktor 4y ago
Satya Nadella, shame on you!
- npteljes 4y ago
  Not that it absolves MS, but this is the status quo, since broadband internet is widespread. Systems in general became very chatty over the net, and every proprietary system phones home for various functionalities, user conveniences and telemetry. And very few system is explicit upfront what gets communicated over the net and what not. Even private, open source software communicates a bunch by default, like Syncthing. This one specifically is peer to peer, and advertises privacy first thing on the homepage, but two instances, both behind NATs, still can't communicate without a third party that connects them at first - like STUN/TURN systems that they themselves host (stun.syncthing.net). https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/
amelius 4y ago
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095438 > Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look
seabriez 4y ago
This is a really dumb attempt at click bait, that unknowledgeable users will use as cannon fodder. Most of the DNS queries are likely just checking a cert revocation list or something completely innocuous, you can't make a conclusion of any kind based on this type of analysis. Low effort content creation, literally 5 mins of analysis to make dumb conclusions.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  I'd suggest watching again for the marketing research firm and the geo-locator.
amatecha 4y ago
The value of the video (and by extension, the article) was pretty much completely nullified when the guy filtered to just DNS queries.. How is that useful to show us? The only thing we learn is that the OS is resolving some domain names - it doesn't show how/if those domains are actually being connected to. I'm all for proving privacy-invading features of OSes, but like, maybe we could see something with substance?
NayamAmarshe 4y ago
Miss the Windows 7 days. Windows 11 is another attempt to fool the less tech-savvy crowd and get them to buy new computers through planned obsolescence and fool the users into sharing all their data through force. Windows does not represent a software that respects the user anymore. Windows represents a tech dystopia where you own nothing and you can do nothing about it.
userbinator 4y ago
According to their analysis, Windows XP doesn't even know what the word "telemetry" means: the first DNS traffic from the freshly-installed OS was to try and contact the Windows Update service, and that's all. No market research, no browsing tracking, nothing at all. Windows from that era was indeed absolutely quiet, and the first-boot experience from a fresh install was basically a "blank slate". It just sat there on the desktop without doing anything, and waited for you, the user, to do something with it. Now the first-boot experience comes with disturbingly creepy patronising messages, a start menu filled with ads, and immediate "notifications" which are even more ads, and while that's happening, it's doing tons of stuff in the background that they probably don't want you to know about. All of this "modern" stuff just has a very repugnant aesthetic, and acts like you're not the user, but an unknowing idiot to be milked for $$$. I guess MS saw how much spyware many users would eventually install themselves, and wanted to get their suck of the sav.
- Terretta 4y ago
  OTOH, for a long while, a fresh install of XP with a public IP would be 'owned' within minutes. Not sure telemetry solves* this though. // * Always at least XP SP2
  - userbinator 4y ago
    Yes, the default listening services were the worst as they were easily exploited; but most users are behind a NAT, and you could still disconnect from the Internet and apply the update first, or disable them. More precisely, it was common in those days for connecting to a network to be one of the last things to do, after already having set up a lot of other things before that. The fact that some versions of Windows 11 require an Internet connection just to install and go through the initial setup seems like it could be even worse.
alwayslikethis 4y ago
I propose the term "slaveware" for software and hardware not under the user's control. In general, any software that acts in the interest of someone other than the user can be considered slaveware, but especially when it is in the interest of a company or the government. Slaveware uses dark patterns to direct user behavior, spies on users, and attempts to deceive user of its true intentions. It asserts control, overriding the user's desires. Most software targeting the general public nowadays are slaveware. The developers think they know better than you. Apple devices are slaveware, because they only allow running software they approve unless you jump through a lot of hoops. Slaveware makers often weaponize their market position to push increasingly aggressive anti-user behaviors. You might not like Facebook or Whatsapp, which does not let you opt out of sending read receipts, but you may be forced to use it because "everyone else does it". I think the issue can only be remedied by very aggressive legislation that would cut down the network effects and market power of slaveware makers. EU's Digital Markets Act is a good start.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- userbinator 4y ago
  Embrace, Extend, Enslave.
dancemethis 4y ago
Just wait until you see Discord...
rldjbpin 4y ago
i am constantly reminded of the "slowly boiling an alive frog" analogy whenever we talk about newer versions of software becoming worse with these things. when windows 10 dropped, many complained about the privacy issues too (remember cortana? also including this guide to reverse some of it https://fdossena.com/?p=w10debotnet/index_1803.frag https://fdossena.com/?p=w10debotnet/index_1803.frag) too bad you still need windows for most work/gaming scenarios.
theyeenzbeanz 4y ago
Windows 11 boots pitifully slow on both my laptop and desktop with both having PCIe NVMEs. Pathetic enough to where my vintage windows 95 build boots faster than it. I miss windows when it was rather simple and not some steaming pile of spyware and bug riddled piece of junk.
rspoerri 4y ago
Anybody got experience with https://github.com/Atlas-OS/Atlas https://github.com/Atlas-OS/Atlas ? Could be an interesting thing if it really is what it's promising.
- npteljes 4y ago
  For one, Windows Defender is removed. Why? It's useful, and it doesn't add much overhead. Well worth for the functionality offered, IMO. I personally use Windows LTSC for gaming.
noltncy 4y ago
I had switched to MS ecosystem (invested in windows 10, onenote+outlook (client and mail service)+todo and onedrive) when 'Gmail is evil' fiasco started years ago. Sticking to it due to convenience, innovation (boards in calendar, teams for personal use, loop etc., O365 being smooth online) and affordability (stackable multi year subscription through offers -amz/Newegg). Now rethinking after I got windows 11 in a new machine - the push to use edge is now really annoying. Xbox is nice in win11 but I have found win11 to be pretty buggy as well, hangs a lot in a gaming laptop being used only for browsing. Edge feels super convenient, like old opera with all the bells and whistles built it but at times it feels scary. Especially when it comes with your employer badge in a work computer. Similarly viva insights. MS has mastered the art of telemetry it seems. Majority of my colleagues and friends do not seem bothered. I had debloated my win10 installations but too lazy to do it again in win11. Any suggestions?

485 points by jlpcsl 4y ago

Meh. This is a content-less article, that seems to be exclusively about how many DNS requests Windows 11 makes on first boot. Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why.

nehal3m 4y ago
It’d be great if the OS told you the how and why in plain English.
- pathartl 4y ago
  While I realize it's not a solution to the issue you raised, it's worth pointing out that Microsoft does a decent* job of documenting the types of telemetry taken across the Windows platform: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-... * When I say decent, I mean this absolutely should be the bare minimum, but this type of thing feels rare in the industry.
- MikusR 4y ago
  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic-data-viewer-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic...
  - nehal3m 4y ago
    That would work for anything MS considers diagnostic data, but that is not a complete picture of what it's sending and why.
    - smileybarry 4y ago
      Couple that with monitoring the vast amount of ETW logging providers Windows gives you, and you'll see why. E.g.: the WinHTTP provider of who (PID) contacted where including URL, DNS ETW for lookups and who (PID), etc.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  It'd be even better if it allowed us to turn it off completely.
bakugo 4y ago
> Absolutely nothing on what data is being sent, if any, or why. Might have something to do with the fact that the data is almost certainly encrypted and the OS is closed source. If I install a piece of software and it immediately connects to 20 random servers without asking or even telling me, for purposes other than to directly provide advertised features, I'm going to assume that those connections are being used to extract my personal data and the burden of proof is on the developer to prove otherwise.
- DethNinja 4y ago
  Wouldn’t transparent TLS with self signed certificates solve this problem? I’ll definitely try this in couple of weeks but I can’t be the only person to try this to uncover exact data that is being sent via Windows telemetrics. Another alternative would be remote debugging the kernel and hooking into some of the undocumented API calls but that would take lots of effort.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Just spin up Fiddler with a generated root CA on the device. Or if you don't trust the network stack on the OS - point the thing at a MITM proxy and trust the self-signed CA in the certificate store. It's really not all that hard to view https traffic... ex: https://www.telerik.com/fiddler/fiddler-classic https://www.telerik.com/fiddler/fiddler-classic
  - ormax3 4y ago
    something like this using mitmproxy (from 2017): https://www.softscheck.com/en/blog/windows-10-enterprise-telemetry-analysis/ https://www.softscheck.com/en/blog/windows-10-enterprise-tel...
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  Look - I'm not really a Windows fan (almost exclusively on linux these days) but they ARE providing advertised features. Like - honestly - the machine is a fresh install of Windows, what exactly is the data you think is being exfiltrated? In most cases... there's just nothing there. At best, someone now knows that ip x.x.x.x is running windows version y.y.y.y, and possibly that the user account is z. And honestly - all of those pieces of information are actually reasonable to send when providing advertised features (such as weather data in widgets, or local news). There's literally just nothing else on the device to grab yet... There's no browsing data, there's no app usage data, there's no documents generated. It's a blank fucking OS outside of the MS account you signed on with. So again - without talking about the actual data in the requests (and not just a dns record...) this isn't really a helpful conversation to have.
user3939382 4y ago
> what data is being sent, if any Obviously the Windows crapware isn't doing explicit DNS lookups for no reason, they're implicit because it's making requests.
jmclnx 4y ago
That could be because Microsoft encrypts the data, I would be shocked if the data being sent was not encrypted. To to me, this means M/S could be grabbing everything and sending it across, fo example browser history, files accessed, info typed into your edge browser, etc. No way to tell and no way to dispute this except for trusting M/S. So, in reality, people should dump all M/S products.
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  Maybe it's encrypted, or maybe the data they're sending is not noteworthy and you're just assuming the worst?

throw10920 4y ago

Is it just me, or is the original source actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI? It doesn't seem like the article provides much extra value over it...

amatecha 4y ago
The article definitely provides extra value: I was able to get the gist of the stuff without having to watch a video :)
- efreak 4y ago
  Wait, there's actually someone else out there that likes reading articles over watching videos? I thought I was alone here.
  - amatecha 4y ago
    Oh yeah, I dared to view the video and, lo and behold, the last 1.5 minutes of the video is an advertisement. Video content may as well not exist - I view it begrudgingly if no alternative is available.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago

Is there a tried and true instruction to prevent windows 11 from running updater at all? I keep losing sensitive work because of the windows penchant to reboot at times when im not at the PC, causing my tabs and docs to be lost. Edit: yes im aware we need security patches but id lile those on demand, not randonly

alar44 4y ago
[flagged]
- codehalo 4y ago
  I think the poster is referring to the loss of desktop state, not necessarily the loss of unsaved documents.
- IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
  Do you have a PC? Are you aware how user-hostile is Windows to even allowing you to turn on your computer without creating an MSN "account" [0] Are you aware that not every user on HN is a software engineer that is comfortable with changing registry values? Its 2023. Empathize with your user or see your startup go dead without funding
  - alar44 4y ago
    Registry values? It's pretty easy to tell Windows when to do updates. This is nonsense.
    - ihateyouall123 4y ago
      You sound like a person who buys ugly Walmart jeans because they are cheap, efficient and economical and then wonder why no one talks to you.
      - efreak 4y ago
        People who refuse to talk to me based on the looks/branding/cost of my clothing aren't people I care to talk to

heywherelogingo 4y ago

I couldn't even install windows 11 - it had some issue with my account, couldn't log in. A couple of hours wasted just trying to log in... no.

grugagag 4y ago
Blessing in disguise
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Someone1234 4y ago

This whole article is just a description of this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT4vDfA_4NI This video is substance-less, they hooked up Wireshark, watched packets fly past, most of which were DNS lookups, then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself. Most of the traffic is generated by Windows 11 widgets[0], which I'd suggest disabling either way. Do I like what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11? Actually, no, I'm pretty unhappy with it. But I hate how lazy most of these critiques are. They do so much irrefutably bad stuff, this is the best you can come up with? [0] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/stay-up-to-date-with-widgets-7ba79aaa-dac6-4687-b460-ad16a06be6e4 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/stay-up-to-date-...

zamalek 4y ago
> then described domains as if that is meaningful in itself It would be one thing if it was all MSFT domains, but scorecardresearch.com is pretty terrifying from a data sovereignty perspective. > which I'd suggest disabling either way. This isn't alarming because of how it affects tech-savvy users, it's alarming because of how it affects average people.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  The widgets are a [bad] wrapper on bing.com. bing.com uses those analytics products. Yes, it should be disabled by default, just like a lot of unacceptable practices on Windows 11. Just don't need to shoot a video with Wireshark running and talk through DNS lookups to get to that critique.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    The video was useful and informative.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > Just don't need to shoot a video with Wireshark running and talk through DNS lookups to get to that critique. Or, you could do that. Why shouldn't that be done again?

BirAdam 4y ago

I wish that the ameliorated.info project were producing up-to-date scripts for win10 and win11. Personally, I refuse to run Windows because I find it incredibly annoying. I do not believe that Redmond is doing anything nefarious to people via their PCs/software other than milking them for cash, but the UI changes I find to be going the wrong direction, the update mechanisms, the ads, etc… are all annoying, and I even find the notification system annoying.

ifyoubuildit 4y ago

I've been using linux on my main machine for quite a while now, but I usually keep a windows machine for games (though I hear linux gaming is pretty good these days, so hopefully I can go that route before windows 11 becomes mandatory). I liked windows 7, but always felt annoyed at being coerced onto more and more disrespectful versions of windows over time. At this point, I wish I had something like a throwaway vm or docker container for anything I need to run in a windows environment, like people use for malware research but more convenient.

fest 4y ago
I set up a windows VM proxmox with GPU passthrough for exactly this reason. With parsec for remote access it is very usable even with my less than ideal LTE uplink for the occasional need for Windows.
the_cramer 4y ago
Aside some AAA title and rare edge caves, gaming on Linux is quite good. Some tinkering necesary and of course wine, but it works. Sincerely, a fresh Linux User with not much knowledge.
- snuxoll 4y ago
  As somebody with a Steam Deck it's seriously impressive what Valve has managed to do with Proton. I didn't catch the memo about the Samsung 980 Pro failure in time and my Windows 10 drive just went readonly on me, and if it weren't for SteamVR not being supported on Linux I'd seriously be considering just...not reinstalling Windows again. Once the day comes that the last few gaming issues I have on Linux go away I will probably let the Windows install rot and daily drive Fedora or Arch again.
  - 1ark 4y ago
    I concur. I use my PC 8-12 hours a day, for many activities including work. Occassionally I have gaming stints, which can include VR. That is just not enough to justify having to be limited and bloated at the same time by Microsoft Windows. I took the plunge a few years ago and went for Linux as my daily driver. When I want to play those VR games I dual boot. Not looking back.

aquir 4y ago

I wish I could use Linux but a very trivial task of "keep my second screen usable when I close my laptop lid" is apparently too much to ask :( OK, I have a discreet GPU, bit still!! Tried 5 different distros with different window managers, the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS

Avicebron 4y ago
For what it's worth, I have a lenovo thinkpad and this behavior was somehow baked into it for both windows and linux (ubuntu).
BLKNSLVR 4y ago
I had a weird experience in that the second screen(s) (connected via a USB dock) would be laggy if the chosen 'primary' monitor was not the one directly connected to the computer (either built-in monitor for a laptop, or directly connected via HDMI / DisplayPort). If the primary monitor was one of the two connected to the dock, they would be horribly laggy. That problem seems to have gone away, but I've changed machines and Linux distributions since then. I think it was with Ubuntu and using a Toshiba Dynadock.
NayamAmarshe 4y ago
> the closest I got was yes you van have the second screen but everything happens with on it with 5 second lag and at 1 FPS Used to happen on my nvidia laptop, you can try filing a complaint. One possible solution is to set the GPU to performance mode in Nvidia XServer settings.
efreak 4y ago
I know there's settings for suspending in logind.conf and also in dconf, but no idea what controls what happens when you close the lid and do nothing, I use my old laptop exclusively through a screen sharing program that keeps the screen off, and it works fine, so it might actually be the graphics driver. If it's just the CPU scheduler being changed, you could always figure out a way to run your own command when the lid closes, to revert the changes to the way you like it a few seconds after the lid closes. https://askubuntu.com/a/1140362 https://askubuntu.com/a/1140362

jimbobimbo 4y ago

"Using Wireshark to check what a freshly-installed copy of Windows 11 was doing on a brand-new laptop, what they saw was eye-opening to say the least: just after the first boot, Windows 11 was quick to try and reach third-party servers with absolutely no prior user permission or intervention." I highly doubt that "absolutely no prior user permission or intervention" happened here. Most likely didn't read the EULA on that "freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables.

nsxwolf 4y ago
Is that really permission? It's that or not use the laptop, right?
- jimbobimbo 4y ago
  There're other laptop/OS manufacturers that may serve needs of privacy-conscious folks better than Windows laptop. Whether one likes it or not, there's no constitutional right to use this specific laptop/OS combination.
  - nsxwolf 4y ago
    Yeah, but maybe consumers should still be very vocal about it.
    - jimbobimbo 4y ago
      They definitely should. But also they should NOT make misleading claims like "absolutely no prior user permission or intervention". Look, it's not that $1T company needs my defense, but it's a rather safe bet that CYA exercise was done by them before unleashing this to the world.
grugagag 4y ago
> freshly-installed copy of Windows 11" or clicked through the whole out-of-the-box experience during the first login without reading what it enables. Isn’t that what the most non tech savvy / common user has to deal with? A mom or pop, a relative perhaps? And if it’s possible to de-junk windows 11 why bother? Who has time for that whack-a-mole game of turning things off and have them back on when the system updates? Again, why bother? Windows 11 doesn’t anything compelling to justify wasting my in the first place

ajmarsh 4y ago

There are options. https://github.com/TheWorldOfPC/Windows11-Debloat-Privacy-Guide https://github.com/TheWorldOfPC/Windows11-Debloat-Privacy-Gu...

LinuxBender 4y ago
Also O&O's ShutUp10 [1] which also works on Windows 11. It's not as complete as some of the scripts on Github but also only changes things known to not affect the usability of the OS. And it has a happy-clicky UI and prompts the person to make a snapshot first. I can attest to it quieting down the telemetry on W10/11 for my gaming machine. I still play certain games on Windows These tools should be run after any big patches from Microsoft as they may change settings. ShutUp10 will show a diff of what features were reset. [1] - https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

PrimeMcFly 4y ago

Windows 10 is going to be my last windows with how MS is acting. 10 was annoying enough to configure to disable so much cruft, get back a decent startbar, disable all the telemetry etc, and much of it still sucks like not being able to have control over updates. 11 with forcing an account, forcing updates, stupid shit like nerfing the taskbar etc...there is just no need for it anymore. Games run fine on Linux via proton, or the ones I want to play at least. The rest of my toolchain and app library is all opensource stuff that runs on *nix. NetBSD or Void Linux with a custom configured AwesomeWM setup here I come.

barbariangrunge 4y ago
As a game developer, I’m stuck with windows for the foreseeable future. The major game engines technically work on Linux but the experience isn’t smooth and the companies don’t want to invest in improving it If they did, I’d switch back to Linux so fast— I actually really like gnome and miss the interface. It’s a dream for people who never want to touch their mice
- Zardoz84 4y ago
  Godot
  - isthiseasymode 4y ago
    I believe they mean that the user base is mostly on windows. All of the major game engines already work with Linux and even MacOS. If they want to make money, they need to develop and test on windows.
    - dontlaugh 4y ago
      The tooling doesn’t work on anything other than Windows, for both Unreal and Unity.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

phendrenad2 4y ago

I tire of this never-ending slander against Windows as being "spyware" when those saying it can't be f*ked to even prove their own point. "It makes HTTP requests" is the latest laziest slap-in-the-face low-effort "attempt" to prove this. Yawn. Personally I like Windows 11 and am amused by people like this.

ninjagoo 4y ago
So what's your theory on why a fresh Windows PC needs to connect to all these 3rd parties at all?
- NayamAmarshe 4y ago
  Premise: - Microsoft is a good corporation. - Microsoft will never break your trust because of the above point. - Microsoft is old. - Microsoft can never do wrong. - People who dislike spyware are criminals.
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  There isn't enough evidence to make a decision, and your insistence that a decision mist be made despite limited information, when no one seems interested in getting better information, is frankly bizarre.
  - ninjagoo 4y ago
    > no one seems interested in getting better information Because there is already enough information here. It's a "Personal Computer". There is no reason (that is in the best interest of the PC's "Owner") for it to connect to "Data Research" 3rd parties with a fresh install of Windows.
    - phendrenad2 4y ago
      Funny how the goalpost always moves from "prove that they're sending meaningful tracking data" to "just prove that they're connecting to a 3rd party".

mixmastamyk 4y ago

These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on? Just to answer, I can guarantee that geolocator and marketing research pings are not there for "no reason whatsoever" aka coincidence. No, they are not just being friendly. Someone on the other end is paying for that server capacity. The capacity to handle billions of requests from Windows users. Without lots of value creation, MS would be hit with a lawsuit from the folks being DDoSed.

ninjagoo 4y ago
> These comments are disappointing. In the midst of rampant disrespect of the user we have story after story such as this. Instead of discussing what is the ethics are of such behavior and where boundaries should be drawn, we get a number of complaints that there is no packet content provided? Is that really the most interesting detail to focus on? It's a distraction, an attempt at deflection. The real question here is: why do these fresh Windows installs need to connect to "Data Research" 3rd parties at all?
amatecha 4y ago
Well, unless I'm missing something, DNS lookups are of zero consequence, no? The ISP's domain name server returns an IP for the domain name lookup, and then what? Does the OS actually hit the server, or...? If nothing else happens, why would we care? Unfortunately this article/video did nothing to actually substantiate what they're suggesting.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Why would a program do a DNS lookup without going to the address? DNS is done automatically by the socket.send() API on demand 99% of the time. Code to do lookups with no send/read are written by nobody besides developers of DNS servers and the dig tool. "They're must be doing something almost no one would ever do!" More importantly, the author never said it only does DNS lookups. He just filtered for that to keep the amount of data manageable for illustration purposes. DNS lookup is usually the first step in opening a connection. Do you have any information that the author(s) are lying? That it is only DNS requests? Given the hundreds of similar confirmed news stories? Dark patterns? The NSA slides pre 2013? My guess is not. And easy to reproduce if needed. My guess is that these connections don't go away with more use. Why are we talking about this? Proverbial red herring.

SaintSeiya84 4y ago

there's a bunch of Microsoft employees doing damage control here....attacking the messenger and not the message.

macintux 4y ago
> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

causi 4y ago

I'm much more prone to working with a busted Windows installation these days rather than just reinstalling because of what a nightmare it is hammering Windows 10/11 into usable shape. With Windows 7, it was just install, ungroup taskbar icons, show hidden files and file extensions, set accent color to black and turn off transparency, then go down the list of installers in my software folder. With Windows 11, fuck, I don't even remember all the esoteric damn steps I have to do. I'm going to have to write it down the next time I have to do it.

nehal3m 4y ago
If you go down a list of installers you might want to give Ninite a shot!
- metadat 4y ago
  I'd never heard of Ninite, it looks potentially quite useful: https://ninite.com/ https://ninite.com/
  - BizarroLand 4y ago
    You may also like RuckZuck https://www.ruckzuck.tools https://www.ruckzuck.tools
- JackGreyhat 4y ago
  If you use ninite, you might want to give chocolatey a shot ;) https://community.chocolatey.org/ https://community.chocolatey.org/
  - ntpeters 4y ago
    If you use chocolatey, you might want to give scoop a shot ;) https://scoop.sh/ https://scoop.sh/
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  Win11 has winget build in. It let you update all installed programs in batch. There is also chocolatey or scoop. https://winget.run/ https://winget.run/ https://scoop.sh/ https://scoop.sh/ https://chocolatey.org/ https://chocolatey.org/ For those who don't like command line, there is WingetUI: https://github.com/marticliment/WingetUI https://github.com/marticliment/WingetUI

M95D 4y ago

Why is this treated as news? I knew there was spyware when I first saw it in Windows XP - the "search online for drivers" option pre-enabled which would have sent my exact PC's configuration to Microsoft servers. At least back then it could be disabled and there were 3rd party firewalls that could filter outgoing connections. I skipped Vista. I only connected Win7 to the internet once and I saw how the firewall completely failed to block outgoing connections. Since then, I keep my Win7 behind a filtering proxy with no direct access to internet. Only firefox has the proxy password. Did anyone look at the Win7's scheduled tasks? It's an absolute nightmare.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
Congrats on seeing this early, but most people are still unaware.
- Xeamek 4y ago
  No, most people simply don't care about some esoteric 'privacy' when giving it up offers them much more comfort and ease of use. It's always been this way, and will always be.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Many things about Windows we are talking about today are not about comfort or ease of use at all. Several of them substantially downgrade the experience.
efreak 4y ago
Windows 7+ firewall is entirely capable of blocking outbound connections by default. It's not hard: https://superuser.com/a/268909 https://superuser.com/a/268909
fernirello 4y ago
How do you deal with updates (ideally, at a time of your choice)?

nathants 4y ago

first step after reinstalling windows is always flipping every toggle in: https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer

ninjagoo 4y ago

When I signed up for the waitlist for the New Bing (with ChatGPT), I was offered an express lane with this copy: "Access the new Bing even faster" "Get ahead in the line when you complete the following" "1. Set *Microsoft Defaults* on your PC" "2. Scan the QR code to install the *Microsoft Bing App*" Microsoft Defaults and Microsoft Bing App were links, which I didn't click, and there was a QR code below the second one. Make of that what you will.

someNameIG 4y ago
Wonder if you have to do both, I DL the app but I only have Macs so can't do the MS defaults thing.
jamesholden 4y ago
For what it's worth, I did try this out. Downloaded the little Bing desktop enforcement app and everything. Also on the phone. Signed in on both. Returned to the 'access' faster page. Nope, just same old 'Do this process to get it faster!'. So it was completely pointless. Unless they mean, jump the queue, and it's in a couple days? But it doesn't _say_ that really. So I dislike this little thing they pulled here. It could be biased too, as I was recently reading about this: Five Walled Gardens: Why Browsers are Essential to the Internet and How Operating Systems Are Holding Them Back. https://research.mozilla.org/files/2022/10/Mozilla-Five-Walled-Gardens.pdf https://research.mozilla.org/files/2022/10/Mozilla-Five-Wall...

vmoore 4y ago

I use Windows Privacy Dashboard[0] to patch Windows 11 for privacy. There are many others like it, but I found this app intuitive and the ability to grab the latest telemetry block-list is great (Windows 11 introduces new and undocumented telemetry hosts all the time). I primarily use Windows 11 for gaming and for Office 365. For anything sensitive, I use various Linux distributions. I also have a spare Windows 11 virtual machine (VM) for testing purposes and it's completely offline. I like to try out different Windows software in the VM and have it offline because some software I don't trust and I acquired it from sketchy sites, or it could be phoning home and sending sensitive data to some random server. [0] https://wpd.app/ https://wpd.app/

rejectfinite 4y ago

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

atraktor 4y ago

Satya Nadella, shame on you!

npteljes 4y ago
Not that it absolves MS, but this is the status quo, since broadband internet is widespread. Systems in general became very chatty over the net, and every proprietary system phones home for various functionalities, user conveniences and telemetry. And very few system is explicit upfront what gets communicated over the net and what not. Even private, open source software communicates a bunch by default, like Syncthing. This one specifically is peer to peer, and advertises privacy first thing on the homepage, but two instances, both behind NATs, still can't communicate without a third party that connects them at first - like STUN/TURN systems that they themselves host (stun.syncthing.net). https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/

amelius 4y ago

See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25095438 > Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

seabriez 4y ago

This is a really dumb attempt at click bait, that unknowledgeable users will use as cannon fodder. Most of the DNS queries are likely just checking a cert revocation list or something completely innocuous, you can't make a conclusion of any kind based on this type of analysis. Low effort content creation, literally 5 mins of analysis to make dumb conclusions.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
I'd suggest watching again for the marketing research firm and the geo-locator.

amatecha 4y ago

The value of the video (and by extension, the article) was pretty much completely nullified when the guy filtered to just DNS queries.. How is that useful to show us? The only thing we learn is that the OS is resolving some domain names - it doesn't show how/if those domains are actually being connected to. I'm all for proving privacy-invading features of OSes, but like, maybe we could see something with substance?

NayamAmarshe 4y ago

Miss the Windows 7 days. Windows 11 is another attempt to fool the less tech-savvy crowd and get them to buy new computers through planned obsolescence and fool the users into sharing all their data through force. Windows does not represent a software that respects the user anymore. Windows represents a tech dystopia where you own nothing and you can do nothing about it.

userbinator 4y ago

According to their analysis, Windows XP doesn't even know what the word "telemetry" means: the first DNS traffic from the freshly-installed OS was to try and contact the Windows Update service, and that's all. No market research, no browsing tracking, nothing at all. Windows from that era was indeed absolutely quiet, and the first-boot experience from a fresh install was basically a "blank slate". It just sat there on the desktop without doing anything, and waited for you, the user, to do something with it. Now the first-boot experience comes with disturbingly creepy patronising messages, a start menu filled with ads, and immediate "notifications" which are even more ads, and while that's happening, it's doing tons of stuff in the background that they probably don't want you to know about. All of this "modern" stuff just has a very repugnant aesthetic, and acts like you're not the user, but an unknowing idiot to be milked for $$$. I guess MS saw how much spyware many users would eventually install themselves, and wanted to get their suck of the sav.

Terretta 4y ago
OTOH, for a long while, a fresh install of XP with a public IP would be 'owned' within minutes. Not sure telemetry solves* this though. // * Always at least XP SP2
- userbinator 4y ago
  Yes, the default listening services were the worst as they were easily exploited; but most users are behind a NAT, and you could still disconnect from the Internet and apply the update first, or disable them. More precisely, it was common in those days for connecting to a network to be one of the last things to do, after already having set up a lot of other things before that. The fact that some versions of Windows 11 require an Internet connection just to install and go through the initial setup seems like it could be even worse.

alwayslikethis 4y ago

I propose the term "slaveware" for software and hardware not under the user's control. In general, any software that acts in the interest of someone other than the user can be considered slaveware, but especially when it is in the interest of a company or the government. Slaveware uses dark patterns to direct user behavior, spies on users, and attempts to deceive user of its true intentions. It asserts control, overriding the user's desires. Most software targeting the general public nowadays are slaveware. The developers think they know better than you. Apple devices are slaveware, because they only allow running software they approve unless you jump through a lot of hoops. Slaveware makers often weaponize their market position to push increasingly aggressive anti-user behaviors. You might not like Facebook or Whatsapp, which does not let you opt out of sending read receipts, but you may be forced to use it because "everyone else does it". I think the issue can only be remedied by very aggressive legislation that would cut down the network effects and market power of slaveware makers. EU's Digital Markets Act is a good start.

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userbinator 4y ago
Embrace, Extend, Enslave.

dancemethis 4y ago

Just wait until you see Discord...

rldjbpin 4y ago

i am constantly reminded of the "slowly boiling an alive frog" analogy whenever we talk about newer versions of software becoming worse with these things. when windows 10 dropped, many complained about the privacy issues too (remember cortana? also including this guide to reverse some of it https://fdossena.com/?p=w10debotnet/index_1803.frag https://fdossena.com/?p=w10debotnet/index_1803.frag) too bad you still need windows for most work/gaming scenarios.

theyeenzbeanz 4y ago

Windows 11 boots pitifully slow on both my laptop and desktop with both having PCIe NVMEs. Pathetic enough to where my vintage windows 95 build boots faster than it. I miss windows when it was rather simple and not some steaming pile of spyware and bug riddled piece of junk.

rspoerri 4y ago

Anybody got experience with https://github.com/Atlas-OS/Atlas https://github.com/Atlas-OS/Atlas ? Could be an interesting thing if it really is what it's promising.

npteljes 4y ago
For one, Windows Defender is removed. Why? It's useful, and it doesn't add much overhead. Well worth for the functionality offered, IMO. I personally use Windows LTSC for gaming.

noltncy 4y ago

I had switched to MS ecosystem (invested in windows 10, onenote+outlook (client and mail service)+todo and onedrive) when 'Gmail is evil' fiasco started years ago. Sticking to it due to convenience, innovation (boards in calendar, teams for personal use, loop etc., O365 being smooth online) and affordability (stackable multi year subscription through offers -amz/Newegg). Now rethinking after I got windows 11 in a new machine - the push to use edge is now really annoying. Xbox is nice in win11 but I have found win11 to be pretty buggy as well, hangs a lot in a gaming laptop being used only for browsing. Edge feels super convenient, like old opera with all the bells and whistles built it but at times it feels scary. Especially when it comes with your employer badge in a work computer. Similarly viva insights. MS has mastered the art of telemetry it seems. Majority of my colleagues and friends do not seem bothered. I had debloated my win10 installations but too lazy to do it again in win11. Any suggestions?