12 ms·

You can’t bribe, threaten, or feed people to get them back in the office

65 points by herbertl 4y ago

nivenkos 4y ago
More than anything else I'd want better equipment than I have at home - i.e. an ultra-wide monitor, simple USB-C docking, good noise-cancelling headphones and a good microphone or headset and webcam, a US-layout ISO keyboard, a comfortable chair, an adjustable standing desk, etc. And then food, coffee, etc. to provide the same amenities as at home. Right now I'd have to pay about $8 a day and 45 minutes each way to commute to the office and then ~$18 a day on food if I don't prepare it before. To then use inferior equipment than I have at home - why would anyone want that?
- offbynull 4y ago
  The commute is what does it for me. That and I hate open plan offices.
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    > The commute is what does it for me. I would love to see data comparing reluctance to go (back) to the office versus things like commuting mode of transportation (walking, cycling, transit, commuter rail, driving) and/or commute time.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      I liked going back to the office, since it required me to cycle to work again. In theory I should do some sort of exercise (like cycling around) when working from home, but realistically that hardly ever happens.
    - adamhp 4y ago
      Just personal anecdotal data. The main factors for me are just general flexibility and commute. I used to commute 30m-1hr one way. So that's anywhere from 1-2h a day I'm getting back right at the start. Then flexibility: being able to get chores done, run an errand, take a walk, etc. This actually ends up giving me even more time back. I can work when I'm productive. Output is the same, but I'm not forced to pretend to work for 8 hours. It just makes so much more sense. If my office was 5 minutes away and I could still do all of these things without the social pressures, I might consider it.
    - zidel 4y ago
      > Car commuters miss commuting the least: 55% of this group do not miss it at all. Commuters by (e-)bicycle are the group who miss commuting the most, with 91% missing at least some aspects of commuting. As might be expected, the feeling of missing commuting also decreases with increasing commute duration (Fig. 5). > The connection between work and commuting is evident in the relationship between missing commuting and the intention to work from home in the future (Fig. 7). Among those who do not miss the commute at all, 72% express desire to work more from home in the future. Among those who miss commuting a lot, 69% would like to go back to their previous work routine. https://urbanstudies.uva.nl/content/blog-series/covid-19-pandemic-working-from-home-and-commuting.html https://urbanstudies.uva.nl/content/blog-series/covid-19-pan... This matches the numbers that have been reported in Norway as well, where the percentage that miss their commute are roughly 80% for pedestrians/cyclists, 50% for public transport and 30% for driving (https://www.nrk.no/norge/blir-palagt-hjemmekontor-_-mange-savner-jobbreisen-1.15219898 https://www.nrk.no/norge/blir-palagt-hjemmekontor-_-mange-sa... in Norwegian)
      - wink 4y ago
        Never thought about it this way, but my bicycle commute has always been 30-45 minutes and that's why I'm leaning 60-70% towards "I don't miss it". If it was only 20mins door to door I guess that would be different.
      - nivenkos 4y ago
        I'm surprised cars have it worse than public transport tbh. I guess it really depends on parking, etc.
  - jk3000 4y ago
    That. In my case 45min commute + an "office" as loud as an airport terminal. No access to better food or coffee could ever offset this.
- Gravityloss 4y ago
  You get hotel death at home. At the office you meet a lot of nice people. You get mental peer support: "oh it sucks for them too? I'm not the only one. Maybe it's not so bad." I find those days are best for going to the office when I have the least meetings, and I can just have ad hoc encounters. Even our CEO so fondly speaks of those. "Oh, you thought that we should do X too? I thought I was the only one!" Ultimately you can experience consilience. I don't try to write that much or have meetings at the office as those are much easier to do at home.
  - whoomp12342 4y ago
    > At the office you meet a lot of nice people is this satire? many office people are "nice to your face"
    - Gravityloss 4y ago
      Not satire. My company at least really has a lot of nice people. Also my other jobs have been like that. The same has happened to me at university or school. Not all people are nice but you don't then need to always spend so much time with those.
    - krageon 4y ago
      Most people are neither nice nor interesting. Generally the response to this is "get to know them better", which is tedious as it implies everything is nice as long as you know enough about it. This is also not true. There is a lot more value in having good, supportive friends. Those you can choose.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    I don't work to meet people. If I want to meet people I do so elsewhere.
    - einherjae 4y ago
      Consider that the world has introverts and extroverts. Consider also that your job is something you spend the majority of your waking hours doing. Consider then that the extroverts might prefer that to have some level of socialization. The extroverts have been made quite aware of how the introverts prefer things to be in the past few years, and may now be aware that the extroverts had the upper hand before. It must be feasible to strike a decent middleground.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Yeah, I think this is a pandemic-triggered "unbundling" of lots of things that were previously forced together. People may or may not like their office or their co-workers; they may not be comfortable with the level of micromanagement there; but almost nobody likes commuting. I wonder if this is how the reaction to absurd real estate prices is playing out.
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    Reality catching up. Louis Rossmann has talked about this for years. Several layers in finance keep this propped up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Mkx7qtlwM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Mkx7qtlwM
- adamhp 4y ago
  The company also needs to pay someone to clean my house, do my laundry, take my dog out, and run any other errands that I can fit in during the day.
  - einherjae 4y ago
    How about 6h days in office?
    - adamhp 4y ago
      Maybe 5. I'm already doing 6 at home, and don't have to commute, so. 6h days in the office is equivalent to 7-8ish (depending on commute times) hours of me not being able to do anything but work. If they covered the other things like I mentioned, then maybe that'd be okay. But otherwise, I need the extra hours to get my shit done and have the free time I want. At the end of the day, I don't want to give up more than 6 total hours of my life per day to my job.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  I'd add that I want the office to have 1) excellent ventilation: clean air. This has become an important topic lately and the importance will not diminish. If you're going to share space with dozens of people, who almost all interact with others at home as well, then find ways to minimise the spread of germs (of which COVID-19 is just one). Coming in saying "it's just a cold" is no longer OK. I don't care how mild your case is, that might not apply to people that you transmit it to, so just don't. 2) a locker to keep some stuff (a nice keyboard, a warm top, etc)
- unity1001 4y ago
  > 45 minutes each way to commute That's the biggest inefficiency about in-office work. Its irreplaceable time lost for the employees, the company and the society. We are needlessly hauling people from place to place to have them work at the cost of losing time and resources.
unglaublich 4y ago
You can, but it has to be a better offer. It is just hard to compete with: no travel time, the comfort of your own home and food, an no one looking over your shoulder all the time.
- bil7 4y ago
  what's an offer that would make you come in more regularly?
  - blackshaw 4y ago
    "Come to the office or you're fired".
  - esel2k 4y ago
    For me it would be: Once a month or twice a month we have dedicated inperson time (no teams/zoom). If you need to travel we pay accommodations and travel. For me: I like to be in the office max 2 days a week but commute is the deal breaker. Culture can be achieved without fixed days but dedicated days.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    For my part: Pay me for the commute, let me come in and leave outside of rush hours, and give me an individual office OR accept that any time in the office will be mostly social / catch up's rather than productive time. If you want me there more than a couple of days a week, you need to pay even more above the commute, as it also costs me flexibility.
  - orwin 4y ago
    A gym (that propose rock climbing) at 5 minutes from my desk for my two-hours lunch break. Showers, Spices and a place to cook the days i'm not at the gym, Office with doors (idc if i have to share it with one or two coworkers), Less than 20 minutes commute by bike, Double screen (as i can bring my mouses and keyboards, but not my computer screens).
  - hnthrowaway1827 4y ago
    Nothing would make me come back. I'm a contractor, which makes my approach a bit easier, but last year I realized that my main client was going to fail in their effort to get people to return to the office, and I just moved overseas. Since then I've just spent my time travelling around, working from basically any place I want. Even with the travel, my living expenses have plummeted, and I now pay 0% income tax, which has almost doubled my income. My clients would have to more than double my remuneration for me to breakeven on returning to the office, and even then I wouldn't be prepared to give up the new lifestyle.
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
The only reason I am going to the office is because it allows me to separate home (and relaxation), and work. Context switching is very important for mental well-being. Plus being at work allows me to fast which assists in weight loss.
- f6v 4y ago
  I have lunches and breakfasts(which becomes my second breakfast) in the office which is a great addition to what you said. I also have good air conditioning there(important in Europe since they don’t have it at homes here). I also like just being in the city. I feel like a loud group of people is always saying “offices are obsolete since I don’t need them!”
  - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
    I had forgotten about AC. My last 2 summers in Denmark sucked a lot due to lack of appropriate cooling and airflow in my apt. I’d add that the commute, especially on foot if feasible, is a great way to relax. I wouldnt say that if i was driving, but i am in Europe so mass transportation alleviates the issue.
  - balfirevic 4y ago
    > important in Europe since they don’t have it at homes here People say the strangest things here...
    - unnah 4y ago
      MIT Technology review: "Fewer than 10% of European homes have an air conditioner" https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056271/europe-heat-waves-air-conditioning/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056271/europe-h...
    - wink 4y ago
      Not sure where you're thinking, but in central Europe AC is actually really rare. I'm not sure I could name more than 1 or 2 friends who have one, and it's usually some portable unit and not something installed. Doesn't matter if house or apartment, rented or owned.
ergonaught 4y ago
It's weird to pretend that the USA suddenly inverted the control structure and employees in the general case can now dictate these things to their employer. "You work from the office or you don't work here" seems to be about as effective as ever. Some people will have alternatives and will use them; most won't. Granted, I've worked remotely for 22 years so maybe I missed the memo.
- vidarh 4y ago
  It's reported largely by talking to privileged workers, like people in tech or finance, where having the financial means to play hard ball over this is much more likely than average. As someone who can dictate this, it's easy to get lost in this bubble and forget that most people have far less power over their work life.
  - voisin 4y ago
    Tech yes, finance no. There are 50 people ready to take any finance job that is vacated by a fired WFH’er. Tech has had a scarcity of talent versus demand, finance not. Same with law and consulting. This new wave of firings might do the same thing to tech.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      As usual it depends on level and specific job function, as well as where you are, but overall it does not just matter whether you can easily find a job right now, but how likely you are to have a cushion that lets you afford to test the limits.
- michaelt 4y ago
  > "You work from the office or you don't work here" seems to be about as effective as ever. You can fire people who aren't willing to come back to the office, certainly. But if 30% of your workforce would rather find a different job than return to the office, firing them all might inhibit your ability to get things done.
dingusdew 4y ago
[dead]
timbre1234 4y ago
Seriously. Give me back an office with a door, or at the very least give me a comfortable space (ie not sweatshop layout or huge cube-farm) and I'm back to the office in an instant. I'm old enough to remember when I could focus _better_ in my tech office than I can at home...
- voisin 4y ago
  This is the problem. The pandemic hit at the apex of companies doing stupid things with their office space. Now we need that pendulum to swing back with more space and privacy, but with opportunities for easy impromptu meetups and culture creation by being in the same spaces physically.
vidarh 4y ago
When looking for a new job at the tail end of last year, I flat out told recruiters I would require an offer that fully accounted for the commuting time and cost in the salary if anyone wanted me in the office. Otherwise there was nothing in it for me. Want me in the office 5 times a day? At the high end of what I'd consider a tolerable commute, that'd be 25%-30% higher base salary than the already high amounts I were asking for. Really, I should have been asking for more, as losing that much spare time would matter, but I mostly made the demand expecting it to be rejected. Unsurprisingly I ended up rejecting a few companies who wanted me in the office at least part of the week but were unwilling to pay for the time they expected me to give up and the costs I'd incur. Instead I ended up taking a salary increase to work 100% remote. Employers may be able to force those who are powerless and in weak bargaining positions back in, but in tech enough of us still have enough options that trying to force people back in will cause companies doing it to lose a lot of the very people who are experienced enough to find it easiest to move.
- gnz11 4y ago
  It's the same for me. It's all about the commute. I don't know what the best solution is but going back to 2+ hours a day in a car on congested roads and highways isn't it. As much as I like my colleagues and current job, going back to that commute grind throws it all out the window.
jokoon 4y ago
I live in france, and I spent several years without a job because of depression, lack of motivation, lack of degree and experience as a C++ developer. Those years taught me to live with little money. Here in in france every unemployed citizen can get welfare since 1989, it's a low amount of money but it's enough. So when I found work, I managed to save a lot of money (less than 10k), because I did not change my lifestyle: no heating in the south of france, eating cheap, no travel, no car, no gadgets. Of course the jobs I got were either for training or trial periods, so I always end without a job. To be really honest, the antiwork movement is quite a revelation for me. I don't feel like I must beg for a job. It feels so good. I can still live without working, and it helps a lot to negotiate the work I want to do.
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  what about rent? i think that's the main thing that makes it difficult to just go off the grid for me.
  - danuker 4y ago
    Buy a cheap place. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/prices_by_city.jsp?displayCurrency=USD&itemId=101 https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/prices_by_city.jsp?dis...
  - sedawk 4y ago
    Besides rent, it is difficult to make this work in the United States, because important things like healthcare is tied to your employer, no employment means either no or very expensive private healthcare insurance :(
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    ...and retirement? When you get old, you cannot work anymore, not even that much. Although, both (rent and retirement) can be achieved with some abuse of the social benefits in france.
sbergot 4y ago
TIBCO is offering a weird deal in France: they are asking employees to choose between 100% or 0% remote work. Either everyone come back full time in the office, or there is no office left. Employee representatives have proposed to move to smaller offices but this option was declined. I am curious to see how this will end.
pards 4y ago
I don't mind going into the office but it has to be about connecting with people in person. I see no benefit of commuting if I have to sit on remote calls all day - I can do that more effectively from home. I avoid remote meetings during my in-office days so I can focus on productive gatherings like whiteboarding sessions, ad-hoc conversations, coffee/tea/lunch breaks etc. In other words, relationship building.
- einherjae 4y ago
  Yup, hybrid meetings have to go. Either full in office or full remote, hybrid just removes the benefits of the in office bit, while leaving the remote side potentially left behind in side discussions. One, or the other, but not hybrid.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Hybrid works just fine, it's just a harder process and requires specific tooling. Full office and full remote are easier.
    - einherjae 4y ago
      No, hybrid means that you get none of the communications benefits of being in the same room, unless you inconvenience the remote part by having side discussions. Once you level the playing field there, you might as well have the meeting full remote, as you can’t cash in the benefits of being in person without inconveniencing the remote crowd. So the optimal hybrid meeting is in fact not hybrid.
5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
no privacy at office. people watching my screen, micromanaging me, so much noise from others and general feeling of physical and mental discomfort. at home, i can manage my time and my environment, i'm comfortable.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  > no privacy at office That can be a plus. Just yesterday we've seen on HN someone's story about hiring 5 people to watch over his shoulder so he can focus on his work [1]. Coworkers do that for you for free. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34657478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34657478
jasmer 4y ago
People should go back to the office but anyone beyond entery level should have at minimum a cube enough of this 'open workspace' nonsense.
idontwantthis 4y ago
Company culture” is just another way for the corporation to control you. If you make work friends, then you have an intangible benefit that makes quitting harder.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
I think people will come back to the office when they feel that their jobs are in danger. Those who come back to the office are setting themselves apart from those who work from home, and the work from home crowd is getting isolated. IMHO eventually employers will see which employees they should invest in in which they should let go.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- n4r9 4y ago
  Something about this feels dystopian to me. Eventually, fear for their own welfare will drive the workers back into the labour yards.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  > IMHO eventually employers will see which employees they should invest in in which they should let go. A yes company loyalty. Unless you are talking about small family business, the only loyalty companies have is to shareholders and investors, believing otherwise is setting yourself up for a bitter surprise.
- dkersten 4y ago
  Fuck that, I'll switch jobs before going back to the office.
hestefisk 4y ago
I find it a bit daunting when management theorists and business school types talk about “having the right culture” as if it’s a tangible thing that can be “installed” or changed at the will of management. Organizations are made of people and the behaviours and actions of those people make up what most people might perceive as culture. But it’s not something management can install in order to get people back into the office. It can be put on PowerPoint slides and company screensavers, yes, but it can’t be “deployed” or “changed” like most MBA schools would like us to believe. At least not until we develop telepathy skills.
jawns 4y ago
One point about remote work, versus in-office work, that rarely gets brought up is that remote work promotes diversity, equity, and inclusion. You get to work with people who live across the country, or across the world, with all of the variety of culture that brings. Plus, you get to work with people from rural areas, for whom big-city jobs would otherwise be infeasible. The more flexible working arrangement is good for women with young children, some of whom would otherwise leave the workforce entirely for a few years. (It's good for men with young children, too, but they are less likely to leave the workforce over it.) It's also good for people with disabilities -- both those that impair mobility and those with chronic conditions.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Diversity is good, why?
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Same as not putting all your eggs in the same basket. Diversifying a team/company brings resilience and stability in many ways, new insights as well.
  - jawns 4y ago
    Sure, I'll bite. Diversity in the abstract has no intrinsic benefits. A dozen red roses is no more or less beautiful than roses of many colors. A set of heterogenous things is not intrinsically more valuable than a set of homogenous things. BUT when it comes to diversity of representation, there is a justice angle. My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem, because it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. Maybe that reason is systemic bias, or maybe it's direct bias on the part of the company. But somewhere in the process, there's an injustice taking place. I used to work for a company that was much more white, male, and otherwise homogeneous than the city in which it was located. And the company was worse off for it. There was a lot of groupthink. There was a lot of what I'd call TDD (testosterone-driven development). And people complained about there being a monoculture. The more homogenous the company became, the harder it became to attract qualified people who didn't fit the mold.
t43562 4y ago
The hypocrisy is in hiring people in far away timezones from each other and then pretending that "being in the office is better." Since you have to communicate via chat and email to keep everyone "together" it stops mattering that you're in the same building as someone. The guys in the US, Belgium and India will almost never be in the room with me and we have to make a team of it despite that. Personally, I think the commute is wasted time and (a lot of) money. I get to take my daughter to school, to collect her and to spend time with her before she goes to sleep and I am not giving that up without a fight. Try to force me and I'll try to find another job and there are plenty on offer.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  I do agree about saved personal time and it has been great for that, but having somebody in person on a meeting, or quick chats/questions about design, code, testing, business etc. is significantly more effective than endless calls. Having big time zones difference means consistently having those questions unanswered for hours/a day instead of 10 seconds. The very same reasons why outsourcing was consistently a fail before covid and ended up costing more with inevitable reversals. What kind of worked was near shore, ie cca same time zone, and less savings. But good luck getting that accepted by MBAs.
  - t43562 4y ago
    Sure, I rely on chat - it helps everyone because as good as an instant reply is, it interrupts people a lot. Chat is the best compromise for me. Calls are for serious "we must work together" things. Working with people overseas is just tricky. China is much too far from my timezone - that' nearly impossible. The Indians I work with put up with very odd hours to be part of our team. It's hard to keep them - they frequently get better offers and leave. The guys in the US are east coast which is not so bad but it makes meetings difficult. I don't really know how a company like mine could totally avoid being global so to an extent we just have to make something work. In my last office job I could never get any work done during the day because it was all interruptions and people making use of their ability to "just have a moment." I'd stay till 10pm to do the actual programming. Nowadays with a family that just isn't going to happen so I like a bit of distance. I think it's useful to meet people once or twice at least - that has turned out to be very good in my experience.
planede 4y ago
Well, a one-off pizza party certainly does not work. Regular free and quality food is surely a nice perk though. At our place we have free lunch from Tuesday to Thursday, otherwise nobody is pushed to work in the office. Some people still come in often partly for the free food, partly to socialize during lunch. Some people are not motivated by it, and that's OK too.
Apreche 4y ago
If someone wants me to ever go back to an office, I’m going to need the following, at minimum. 1) ALL my co-workers are in that office when I am. There’s no point in going to a place if the rest of the team isn’t there. 2) Compensate me 100% for all commuting related expenses. 3) A very short commute by bicycle or subway. A short walk would be even better. 4) My own private office. With a door. A fancy door with with my name on it. The kind that detectives used to have in old movies. 5) Even when I’m not working, I am free to use the office as an extension of my personal living space for convenience. 6) Secure bicycle parking/storage. 7) Showers. 8) I am only required to work at most 4 days per week. No more than 32 hours total. 9) Lastly, pay me more than any remote job is offering.
- adamhp 4y ago
  I think this might do it for me too. Although sub-bullet, (1a) coworkers must be enjoyable to work with.
- mattbrewsbytes 4y ago
  > 4) My own private office. With a door. A fancy door with with my name on it. The kind that detectives used to have in old movies. I know you may kid with the tail end of that but this is a key thing for engineers for focus time. Open office floor plans are the opposite of what is needed. Reference is PeopleWare by DeMarco & Lister.
- einherjae 4y ago
  Overall reasonable start for bargaining, 5 is a bit unspecific.
marcus0x62 4y ago
I think remote working, at least at the team/department level, is kind of like virtual vs in-person meetings: you can have an effective virtual meeting or you can have an effective in-person meeting. You cannot have both at the same time — either the people meeting in-person will just stare at their Zoom/Teams/WebEx/etc. window or the virtual attendees will be left out of some part of the meeting experience. Companies - or at least teams within companies - self-selecting into in-person or remote organizations seems like the best outcome to me. This will probably happen at the whim of management, but maybe also because of the relative preferences of the dominant talent pool they need to attract. I just wonder how much pain and suffering everyone is going to have to endure to figure this out and get there.
- oaiey 4y ago
  The problem of that thinking is that a single remote-only-possible person pushes the team to remote-only. I however, 100% agree with the statement that conferences are problem (1) for coming back to the office AND (2) is the fact that commute times were given back to the life of people (and their kids, partners, hobbies, communities, ...) and now people ask to invest that time back to the company.
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    That’s my point - some people want[0] to work in-person and some want to work remotely. There are plenty of jobs and places for each, but trying to mix them together on a single team is never going to work. So don’t try. Setup your team to be unapologetically in-person, with all the baggage that entails: loss of commute time, lack of ability to recruit geographically distant workers, possibly more streamlined real-time collaboration, etc. or setup your team to be remote with all the baggage that entails: lower overhead, hire the best talent anywhere in the world, better focus on deep work/asynchronous communication, probably weaker team bonds, inability to just get in a room and figure something out quickly, etc. 0 - alternately, “are more productive working”
    - oaiey 4y ago
LatteLazy 4y ago
I feel like this is being made out to be a much bigger deal than it is, both by the (rather hyperbolic) article and in general. If you want to go back, go back. If you don't, then don't. If you want a mixed model do that. Be you an employer or employee. You may need to change jobs/staff to get what you want. That's life. That always has been.
nikanj 4y ago
I recommend people compare the commutes of people making the decisions, to the commutes of people suffering the consequences of those decisions. The key people have plenty of money and tend to live near the city center, their commute is 15 minutes in their car to a dedicated spot in the company garage. The workers have little money, live in the suburbs and their commute takes an hour. Plus they have to pay for either public transit or parking.
- voisin 4y ago
  Don’t the key people tend to live in larger single family homes in the suburbs, and younger people with young/no family live in the core?
pk-protect-ai 4y ago
What for? Why are they want us back in the office? I can't see what benefits we (i mean the company and me) will have by working in the office? Yes there are the extraverts and people with professions those have to be in the office/specific workspace. But why moving each and everyone back into office?
- DonsDiscountGas 4y ago
  My theory is that it's similar to why they do team-building exercises: they want employees to be friends with each other, because it promotes retention. Are you going to leave a job where you know everybody for a complete unknown for a 20% raise? Will you even start looking around? They could accomplish the same thing by paying above-average, but obviously everybody can't do that and anyway team-building once a quarter is cheaper. Then again, office space is super-expensive and if they can actually reduce (or eliminate) the amount of office space because of WFH that would be a huge savings. But not every company can do that (yet).
gregwebs 4y ago
Working from home means a private office- an invaluable potentially distraction free environment for a programmer. And during meetings, a private conversation if needed without having to find a meeting room (that’s likely mostly glass). I am finding this often makes collaboration easier then when in the office- where I feel bad about distracting others nearby if I work with someone at their desk. Companies chose to make every office an open office and I wonder how much the work from home phenomenon is a vote against this with the feet.
wonderwonder 4y ago
I'm sure if push came to shove I would figure it out but on a surface level I have no idea how I would make returning to the office work with kids. Wife drives to work and only gets home around 6:30. Kid 1 has school from 7:50 to 2:15. Kid 2 is 9:20 to 3:55. I assume I would have an hour commute as I live in the suburbs. So I would have to leave at 8 and wouldn't get home until at least 6 assuming I was the guy that was running out the door at 5 everyday. Kids also have sports at 4:30 twice a week.
jacknews 4y ago
But you can lay them off, and then hire new workers who are required to be on-premises per their job description. I'm sure that's nothing to do with the current situation with everyone in tech doing mass layoffs though. Even though that has a hint of a war on workers. Or their salaries, anyway.
onewheeltom 4y ago
This thread has descended into a pile of poo
onewheeltom 4y ago
I thought the thread was about the the workplace, not diversity. I should be used to the hijacked threads…some are easily triggered.
greenyoda 4y ago
Archive with full text of article: https://archive.ph/iFOfK https://archive.ph/iFOfK
antisthenes 4y ago
You can certainly bribe me. Commuting to the office has a real, quantifiable cost. Pay me 1.5x that cost and I'll gladly take that trade.

65 points by herbertl 4y ago

More than anything else I'd want better equipment than I have at home - i.e. an ultra-wide monitor, simple USB-C docking, good noise-cancelling headphones and a good microphone or headset and webcam, a US-layout ISO keyboard, a comfortable chair, an adjustable standing desk, etc. And then food, coffee, etc. to provide the same amenities as at home. Right now I'd have to pay about $8 a day and 45 minutes each way to commute to the office and then ~$18 a day on food if I don't prepare it before. To then use inferior equipment than I have at home - why would anyone want that?

offbynull 4y ago
The commute is what does it for me. That and I hate open plan offices.
- throw0101c 4y ago
  > The commute is what does it for me. I would love to see data comparing reluctance to go (back) to the office versus things like commuting mode of transportation (walking, cycling, transit, commuter rail, driving) and/or commute time.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    I liked going back to the office, since it required me to cycle to work again. In theory I should do some sort of exercise (like cycling around) when working from home, but realistically that hardly ever happens.
  - adamhp 4y ago
    Just personal anecdotal data. The main factors for me are just general flexibility and commute. I used to commute 30m-1hr one way. So that's anywhere from 1-2h a day I'm getting back right at the start. Then flexibility: being able to get chores done, run an errand, take a walk, etc. This actually ends up giving me even more time back. I can work when I'm productive. Output is the same, but I'm not forced to pretend to work for 8 hours. It just makes so much more sense. If my office was 5 minutes away and I could still do all of these things without the social pressures, I might consider it.
  - zidel 4y ago
    > Car commuters miss commuting the least: 55% of this group do not miss it at all. Commuters by (e-)bicycle are the group who miss commuting the most, with 91% missing at least some aspects of commuting. As might be expected, the feeling of missing commuting also decreases with increasing commute duration (Fig. 5). > The connection between work and commuting is evident in the relationship between missing commuting and the intention to work from home in the future (Fig. 7). Among those who do not miss the commute at all, 72% express desire to work more from home in the future. Among those who miss commuting a lot, 69% would like to go back to their previous work routine. https://urbanstudies.uva.nl/content/blog-series/covid-19-pandemic-working-from-home-and-commuting.html https://urbanstudies.uva.nl/content/blog-series/covid-19-pan... This matches the numbers that have been reported in Norway as well, where the percentage that miss their commute are roughly 80% for pedestrians/cyclists, 50% for public transport and 30% for driving (https://www.nrk.no/norge/blir-palagt-hjemmekontor-_-mange-savner-jobbreisen-1.15219898 https://www.nrk.no/norge/blir-palagt-hjemmekontor-_-mange-sa... in Norwegian)
    - wink 4y ago
      Never thought about it this way, but my bicycle commute has always been 30-45 minutes and that's why I'm leaning 60-70% towards "I don't miss it". If it was only 20mins door to door I guess that would be different.
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      I'm surprised cars have it worse than public transport tbh. I guess it really depends on parking, etc.
- jk3000 4y ago
  That. In my case 45min commute + an "office" as loud as an airport terminal. No access to better food or coffee could ever offset this.
Gravityloss 4y ago
You get hotel death at home. At the office you meet a lot of nice people. You get mental peer support: "oh it sucks for them too? I'm not the only one. Maybe it's not so bad." I find those days are best for going to the office when I have the least meetings, and I can just have ad hoc encounters. Even our CEO so fondly speaks of those. "Oh, you thought that we should do X too? I thought I was the only one!" Ultimately you can experience consilience. I don't try to write that much or have meetings at the office as those are much easier to do at home.
- whoomp12342 4y ago
  > At the office you meet a lot of nice people is this satire? many office people are "nice to your face"
  - Gravityloss 4y ago
    Not satire. My company at least really has a lot of nice people. Also my other jobs have been like that. The same has happened to me at university or school. Not all people are nice but you don't then need to always spend so much time with those.
  - krageon 4y ago
    Most people are neither nice nor interesting. Generally the response to this is "get to know them better", which is tedious as it implies everything is nice as long as you know enough about it. This is also not true. There is a lot more value in having good, supportive friends. Those you can choose.
- vidarh 4y ago
  I don't work to meet people. If I want to meet people I do so elsewhere.
  - einherjae 4y ago
    Consider that the world has introverts and extroverts. Consider also that your job is something you spend the majority of your waking hours doing. Consider then that the extroverts might prefer that to have some level of socialization. The extroverts have been made quite aware of how the introverts prefer things to be in the past few years, and may now be aware that the extroverts had the upper hand before. It must be feasible to strike a decent middleground.
pjc50 4y ago
Yeah, I think this is a pandemic-triggered "unbundling" of lots of things that were previously forced together. People may or may not like their office or their co-workers; they may not be comfortable with the level of micromanagement there; but almost nobody likes commuting. I wonder if this is how the reaction to absurd real estate prices is playing out.
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  Reality catching up. Louis Rossmann has talked about this for years. Several layers in finance keep this propped up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Mkx7qtlwM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Mkx7qtlwM
adamhp 4y ago
The company also needs to pay someone to clean my house, do my laundry, take my dog out, and run any other errands that I can fit in during the day.
- einherjae 4y ago
  How about 6h days in office?
  - adamhp 4y ago
    Maybe 5. I'm already doing 6 at home, and don't have to commute, so. 6h days in the office is equivalent to 7-8ish (depending on commute times) hours of me not being able to do anything but work. If they covered the other things like I mentioned, then maybe that'd be okay. But otherwise, I need the extra hours to get my shit done and have the free time I want. At the end of the day, I don't want to give up more than 6 total hours of my life per day to my job.
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
I'd add that I want the office to have 1) excellent ventilation: clean air. This has become an important topic lately and the importance will not diminish. If you're going to share space with dozens of people, who almost all interact with others at home as well, then find ways to minimise the spread of germs (of which COVID-19 is just one). Coming in saying "it's just a cold" is no longer OK. I don't care how mild your case is, that might not apply to people that you transmit it to, so just don't. 2) a locker to keep some stuff (a nice keyboard, a warm top, etc)
unity1001 4y ago
> 45 minutes each way to commute That's the biggest inefficiency about in-office work. Its irreplaceable time lost for the employees, the company and the society. We are needlessly hauling people from place to place to have them work at the cost of losing time and resources.

unglaublich 4y ago

You can, but it has to be a better offer. It is just hard to compete with: no travel time, the comfort of your own home and food, an no one looking over your shoulder all the time.

bil7 4y ago
what's an offer that would make you come in more regularly?
- blackshaw 4y ago
  "Come to the office or you're fired".
- esel2k 4y ago
  For me it would be: Once a month or twice a month we have dedicated inperson time (no teams/zoom). If you need to travel we pay accommodations and travel. For me: I like to be in the office max 2 days a week but commute is the deal breaker. Culture can be achieved without fixed days but dedicated days.
- vidarh 4y ago
  For my part: Pay me for the commute, let me come in and leave outside of rush hours, and give me an individual office OR accept that any time in the office will be mostly social / catch up's rather than productive time. If you want me there more than a couple of days a week, you need to pay even more above the commute, as it also costs me flexibility.
- orwin 4y ago
  A gym (that propose rock climbing) at 5 minutes from my desk for my two-hours lunch break. Showers, Spices and a place to cook the days i'm not at the gym, Office with doors (idc if i have to share it with one or two coworkers), Less than 20 minutes commute by bike, Double screen (as i can bring my mouses and keyboards, but not my computer screens).
- hnthrowaway1827 4y ago
  Nothing would make me come back. I'm a contractor, which makes my approach a bit easier, but last year I realized that my main client was going to fail in their effort to get people to return to the office, and I just moved overseas. Since then I've just spent my time travelling around, working from basically any place I want. Even with the travel, my living expenses have plummeted, and I now pay 0% income tax, which has almost doubled my income. My clients would have to more than double my remuneration for me to breakeven on returning to the office, and even then I wouldn't be prepared to give up the new lifestyle.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

The only reason I am going to the office is because it allows me to separate home (and relaxation), and work. Context switching is very important for mental well-being. Plus being at work allows me to fast which assists in weight loss.

f6v 4y ago
I have lunches and breakfasts(which becomes my second breakfast) in the office which is a great addition to what you said. I also have good air conditioning there(important in Europe since they don’t have it at homes here). I also like just being in the city. I feel like a loud group of people is always saying “offices are obsolete since I don’t need them!”
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  I had forgotten about AC. My last 2 summers in Denmark sucked a lot due to lack of appropriate cooling and airflow in my apt. I’d add that the commute, especially on foot if feasible, is a great way to relax. I wouldnt say that if i was driving, but i am in Europe so mass transportation alleviates the issue.
- balfirevic 4y ago
  > important in Europe since they don’t have it at homes here People say the strangest things here...
  - unnah 4y ago
    MIT Technology review: "Fewer than 10% of European homes have an air conditioner" https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056271/europe-heat-waves-air-conditioning/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056271/europe-h...
  - wink 4y ago
    Not sure where you're thinking, but in central Europe AC is actually really rare. I'm not sure I could name more than 1 or 2 friends who have one, and it's usually some portable unit and not something installed. Doesn't matter if house or apartment, rented or owned.

ergonaught 4y ago

It's weird to pretend that the USA suddenly inverted the control structure and employees in the general case can now dictate these things to their employer. "You work from the office or you don't work here" seems to be about as effective as ever. Some people will have alternatives and will use them; most won't. Granted, I've worked remotely for 22 years so maybe I missed the memo.

vidarh 4y ago
It's reported largely by talking to privileged workers, like people in tech or finance, where having the financial means to play hard ball over this is much more likely than average. As someone who can dictate this, it's easy to get lost in this bubble and forget that most people have far less power over their work life.
- voisin 4y ago
  Tech yes, finance no. There are 50 people ready to take any finance job that is vacated by a fired WFH’er. Tech has had a scarcity of talent versus demand, finance not. Same with law and consulting. This new wave of firings might do the same thing to tech.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    As usual it depends on level and specific job function, as well as where you are, but overall it does not just matter whether you can easily find a job right now, but how likely you are to have a cushion that lets you afford to test the limits.
michaelt 4y ago
> "You work from the office or you don't work here" seems to be about as effective as ever. You can fire people who aren't willing to come back to the office, certainly. But if 30% of your workforce would rather find a different job than return to the office, firing them all might inhibit your ability to get things done.

dingusdew 4y ago

[dead]

timbre1234 4y ago

Seriously. Give me back an office with a door, or at the very least give me a comfortable space (ie not sweatshop layout or huge cube-farm) and I'm back to the office in an instant. I'm old enough to remember when I could focus _better_ in my tech office than I can at home...

voisin 4y ago
This is the problem. The pandemic hit at the apex of companies doing stupid things with their office space. Now we need that pendulum to swing back with more space and privacy, but with opportunities for easy impromptu meetups and culture creation by being in the same spaces physically.

vidarh 4y ago

When looking for a new job at the tail end of last year, I flat out told recruiters I would require an offer that fully accounted for the commuting time and cost in the salary if anyone wanted me in the office. Otherwise there was nothing in it for me. Want me in the office 5 times a day? At the high end of what I'd consider a tolerable commute, that'd be 25%-30% higher base salary than the already high amounts I were asking for. Really, I should have been asking for more, as losing that much spare time would matter, but I mostly made the demand expecting it to be rejected. Unsurprisingly I ended up rejecting a few companies who wanted me in the office at least part of the week but were unwilling to pay for the time they expected me to give up and the costs I'd incur. Instead I ended up taking a salary increase to work 100% remote. Employers may be able to force those who are powerless and in weak bargaining positions back in, but in tech enough of us still have enough options that trying to force people back in will cause companies doing it to lose a lot of the very people who are experienced enough to find it easiest to move.

gnz11 4y ago
It's the same for me. It's all about the commute. I don't know what the best solution is but going back to 2+ hours a day in a car on congested roads and highways isn't it. As much as I like my colleagues and current job, going back to that commute grind throws it all out the window.

jokoon 4y ago

I live in france, and I spent several years without a job because of depression, lack of motivation, lack of degree and experience as a C++ developer. Those years taught me to live with little money. Here in in france every unemployed citizen can get welfare since 1989, it's a low amount of money but it's enough. So when I found work, I managed to save a lot of money (less than 10k), because I did not change my lifestyle: no heating in the south of france, eating cheap, no travel, no car, no gadgets. Of course the jobs I got were either for training or trial periods, so I always end without a job. To be really honest, the antiwork movement is quite a revelation for me. I don't feel like I must beg for a job. It feels so good. I can still live without working, and it helps a lot to negotiate the work I want to do.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
what about rent? i think that's the main thing that makes it difficult to just go off the grid for me.
- danuker 4y ago
  Buy a cheap place. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/prices_by_city.jsp?displayCurrency=USD&itemId=101 https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/prices_by_city.jsp?dis...
- sedawk 4y ago
  Besides rent, it is difficult to make this work in the United States, because important things like healthcare is tied to your employer, no employment means either no or very expensive private healthcare insurance :(
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  ...and retirement? When you get old, you cannot work anymore, not even that much. Although, both (rent and retirement) can be achieved with some abuse of the social benefits in france.

sbergot 4y ago

TIBCO is offering a weird deal in France: they are asking employees to choose between 100% or 0% remote work. Either everyone come back full time in the office, or there is no office left. Employee representatives have proposed to move to smaller offices but this option was declined. I am curious to see how this will end.

pards 4y ago

I don't mind going into the office but it has to be about connecting with people in person. I see no benefit of commuting if I have to sit on remote calls all day - I can do that more effectively from home. I avoid remote meetings during my in-office days so I can focus on productive gatherings like whiteboarding sessions, ad-hoc conversations, coffee/tea/lunch breaks etc. In other words, relationship building.

einherjae 4y ago
Yup, hybrid meetings have to go. Either full in office or full remote, hybrid just removes the benefits of the in office bit, while leaving the remote side potentially left behind in side discussions. One, or the other, but not hybrid.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Hybrid works just fine, it's just a harder process and requires specific tooling. Full office and full remote are easier.
  - einherjae 4y ago
    No, hybrid means that you get none of the communications benefits of being in the same room, unless you inconvenience the remote part by having side discussions. Once you level the playing field there, you might as well have the meeting full remote, as you can’t cash in the benefits of being in person without inconveniencing the remote crowd. So the optimal hybrid meeting is in fact not hybrid.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago

no privacy at office. people watching my screen, micromanaging me, so much noise from others and general feeling of physical and mental discomfort. at home, i can manage my time and my environment, i'm comfortable.

credit_guy 4y ago
> no privacy at office That can be a plus. Just yesterday we've seen on HN someone's story about hiring 5 people to watch over his shoulder so he can focus on his work [1]. Coworkers do that for you for free. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34657478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34657478

jasmer 4y ago

People should go back to the office but anyone beyond entery level should have at minimum a cube enough of this 'open workspace' nonsense.

idontwantthis 4y ago

Company culture” is just another way for the corporation to control you. If you make work friends, then you have an intangible benefit that makes quitting harder.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

I think people will come back to the office when they feel that their jobs are in danger. Those who come back to the office are setting themselves apart from those who work from home, and the work from home crowd is getting isolated. IMHO eventually employers will see which employees they should invest in in which they should let go.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
n4r9 4y ago
Something about this feels dystopian to me. Eventually, fear for their own welfare will drive the workers back into the labour yards.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
> IMHO eventually employers will see which employees they should invest in in which they should let go. A yes company loyalty. Unless you are talking about small family business, the only loyalty companies have is to shareholders and investors, believing otherwise is setting yourself up for a bitter surprise.
dkersten 4y ago
Fuck that, I'll switch jobs before going back to the office.

hestefisk 4y ago

I find it a bit daunting when management theorists and business school types talk about “having the right culture” as if it’s a tangible thing that can be “installed” or changed at the will of management. Organizations are made of people and the behaviours and actions of those people make up what most people might perceive as culture. But it’s not something management can install in order to get people back into the office. It can be put on PowerPoint slides and company screensavers, yes, but it can’t be “deployed” or “changed” like most MBA schools would like us to believe. At least not until we develop telepathy skills.

jawns 4y ago

One point about remote work, versus in-office work, that rarely gets brought up is that remote work promotes diversity, equity, and inclusion. You get to work with people who live across the country, or across the world, with all of the variety of culture that brings. Plus, you get to work with people from rural areas, for whom big-city jobs would otherwise be infeasible. The more flexible working arrangement is good for women with young children, some of whom would otherwise leave the workforce entirely for a few years. (It's good for men with young children, too, but they are less likely to leave the workforce over it.) It's also good for people with disabilities -- both those that impair mobility and those with chronic conditions.

blueflow 4y ago
Diversity is good, why?
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Same as not putting all your eggs in the same basket. Diversifying a team/company brings resilience and stability in many ways, new insights as well.
- jawns 4y ago
  Sure, I'll bite. Diversity in the abstract has no intrinsic benefits. A dozen red roses is no more or less beautiful than roses of many colors. A set of heterogenous things is not intrinsically more valuable than a set of homogenous things. BUT when it comes to diversity of representation, there is a justice angle. My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem, because it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. Maybe that reason is systemic bias, or maybe it's direct bias on the part of the company. But somewhere in the process, there's an injustice taking place. I used to work for a company that was much more white, male, and otherwise homogeneous than the city in which it was located. And the company was worse off for it. There was a lot of groupthink. There was a lot of what I'd call TDD (testosterone-driven development). And people complained about there being a monoculture. The more homogenous the company became, the harder it became to attract qualified people who didn't fit the mold.

t43562 4y ago

The hypocrisy is in hiring people in far away timezones from each other and then pretending that "being in the office is better." Since you have to communicate via chat and email to keep everyone "together" it stops mattering that you're in the same building as someone. The guys in the US, Belgium and India will almost never be in the room with me and we have to make a team of it despite that. Personally, I think the commute is wasted time and (a lot of) money. I get to take my daughter to school, to collect her and to spend time with her before she goes to sleep and I am not giving that up without a fight. Try to force me and I'll try to find another job and there are plenty on offer.

saiya-jin 4y ago
I do agree about saved personal time and it has been great for that, but having somebody in person on a meeting, or quick chats/questions about design, code, testing, business etc. is significantly more effective than endless calls. Having big time zones difference means consistently having those questions unanswered for hours/a day instead of 10 seconds. The very same reasons why outsourcing was consistently a fail before covid and ended up costing more with inevitable reversals. What kind of worked was near shore, ie cca same time zone, and less savings. But good luck getting that accepted by MBAs.
- t43562 4y ago
  Sure, I rely on chat - it helps everyone because as good as an instant reply is, it interrupts people a lot. Chat is the best compromise for me. Calls are for serious "we must work together" things. Working with people overseas is just tricky. China is much too far from my timezone - that' nearly impossible. The Indians I work with put up with very odd hours to be part of our team. It's hard to keep them - they frequently get better offers and leave. The guys in the US are east coast which is not so bad but it makes meetings difficult. I don't really know how a company like mine could totally avoid being global so to an extent we just have to make something work. In my last office job I could never get any work done during the day because it was all interruptions and people making use of their ability to "just have a moment." I'd stay till 10pm to do the actual programming. Nowadays with a family that just isn't going to happen so I like a bit of distance. I think it's useful to meet people once or twice at least - that has turned out to be very good in my experience.

planede 4y ago

Well, a one-off pizza party certainly does not work. Regular free and quality food is surely a nice perk though. At our place we have free lunch from Tuesday to Thursday, otherwise nobody is pushed to work in the office. Some people still come in often partly for the free food, partly to socialize during lunch. Some people are not motivated by it, and that's OK too.

Apreche 4y ago

If someone wants me to ever go back to an office, I’m going to need the following, at minimum. 1) ALL my co-workers are in that office when I am. There’s no point in going to a place if the rest of the team isn’t there. 2) Compensate me 100% for all commuting related expenses. 3) A very short commute by bicycle or subway. A short walk would be even better. 4) My own private office. With a door. A fancy door with with my name on it. The kind that detectives used to have in old movies. 5) Even when I’m not working, I am free to use the office as an extension of my personal living space for convenience. 6) Secure bicycle parking/storage. 7) Showers. 8) I am only required to work at most 4 days per week. No more than 32 hours total. 9) Lastly, pay me more than any remote job is offering.

adamhp 4y ago
I think this might do it for me too. Although sub-bullet, (1a) coworkers must be enjoyable to work with.
mattbrewsbytes 4y ago
> 4) My own private office. With a door. A fancy door with with my name on it. The kind that detectives used to have in old movies. I know you may kid with the tail end of that but this is a key thing for engineers for focus time. Open office floor plans are the opposite of what is needed. Reference is PeopleWare by DeMarco & Lister.
einherjae 4y ago
Overall reasonable start for bargaining, 5 is a bit unspecific.

marcus0x62 4y ago

I think remote working, at least at the team/department level, is kind of like virtual vs in-person meetings: you can have an effective virtual meeting or you can have an effective in-person meeting. You cannot have both at the same time — either the people meeting in-person will just stare at their Zoom/Teams/WebEx/etc. window or the virtual attendees will be left out of some part of the meeting experience. Companies - or at least teams within companies - self-selecting into in-person or remote organizations seems like the best outcome to me. This will probably happen at the whim of management, but maybe also because of the relative preferences of the dominant talent pool they need to attract. I just wonder how much pain and suffering everyone is going to have to endure to figure this out and get there.

oaiey 4y ago
The problem of that thinking is that a single remote-only-possible person pushes the team to remote-only. I however, 100% agree with the statement that conferences are problem (1) for coming back to the office AND (2) is the fact that commute times were given back to the life of people (and their kids, partners, hobbies, communities, ...) and now people ask to invest that time back to the company.
- marcus0x62 4y ago
  That’s my point - some people want[0] to work in-person and some want to work remotely. There are plenty of jobs and places for each, but trying to mix them together on a single team is never going to work. So don’t try. Setup your team to be unapologetically in-person, with all the baggage that entails: loss of commute time, lack of ability to recruit geographically distant workers, possibly more streamlined real-time collaboration, etc. or setup your team to be remote with all the baggage that entails: lower overhead, hire the best talent anywhere in the world, better focus on deep work/asynchronous communication, probably weaker team bonds, inability to just get in a room and figure something out quickly, etc. 0 - alternately, “are more productive working”
  - oaiey 4y ago

LatteLazy 4y ago

I feel like this is being made out to be a much bigger deal than it is, both by the (rather hyperbolic) article and in general. If you want to go back, go back. If you don't, then don't. If you want a mixed model do that. Be you an employer or employee. You may need to change jobs/staff to get what you want. That's life. That always has been.

nikanj 4y ago

I recommend people compare the commutes of people making the decisions, to the commutes of people suffering the consequences of those decisions. The key people have plenty of money and tend to live near the city center, their commute is 15 minutes in their car to a dedicated spot in the company garage. The workers have little money, live in the suburbs and their commute takes an hour. Plus they have to pay for either public transit or parking.

voisin 4y ago
Don’t the key people tend to live in larger single family homes in the suburbs, and younger people with young/no family live in the core?

pk-protect-ai 4y ago

What for? Why are they want us back in the office? I can't see what benefits we (i mean the company and me) will have by working in the office? Yes there are the extraverts and people with professions those have to be in the office/specific workspace. But why moving each and everyone back into office?

DonsDiscountGas 4y ago
My theory is that it's similar to why they do team-building exercises: they want employees to be friends with each other, because it promotes retention. Are you going to leave a job where you know everybody for a complete unknown for a 20% raise? Will you even start looking around? They could accomplish the same thing by paying above-average, but obviously everybody can't do that and anyway team-building once a quarter is cheaper. Then again, office space is super-expensive and if they can actually reduce (or eliminate) the amount of office space because of WFH that would be a huge savings. But not every company can do that (yet).

gregwebs 4y ago

Working from home means a private office- an invaluable potentially distraction free environment for a programmer. And during meetings, a private conversation if needed without having to find a meeting room (that’s likely mostly glass). I am finding this often makes collaboration easier then when in the office- where I feel bad about distracting others nearby if I work with someone at their desk. Companies chose to make every office an open office and I wonder how much the work from home phenomenon is a vote against this with the feet.

wonderwonder 4y ago

I'm sure if push came to shove I would figure it out but on a surface level I have no idea how I would make returning to the office work with kids. Wife drives to work and only gets home around 6:30. Kid 1 has school from 7:50 to 2:15. Kid 2 is 9:20 to 3:55. I assume I would have an hour commute as I live in the suburbs. So I would have to leave at 8 and wouldn't get home until at least 6 assuming I was the guy that was running out the door at 5 everyday. Kids also have sports at 4:30 twice a week.

jacknews 4y ago

But you can lay them off, and then hire new workers who are required to be on-premises per their job description. I'm sure that's nothing to do with the current situation with everyone in tech doing mass layoffs though. Even though that has a hint of a war on workers. Or their salaries, anyway.

onewheeltom 4y ago

This thread has descended into a pile of poo

onewheeltom 4y ago

I thought the thread was about the the workplace, not diversity. I should be used to the hijacked threads…some are easily triggered.

greenyoda 4y ago

Archive with full text of article: https://archive.ph/iFOfK https://archive.ph/iFOfK

antisthenes 4y ago

You can certainly bribe me. Commuting to the office has a real, quantifiable cost. Pay me 1.5x that cost and I'll gladly take that trade.