18 ms·

Deere to allow farmers to repair their own equipment

593 points by impish9208 4y ago

impish9208 4y ago
https://archive.ph/YbUOC https://archive.ph/YbUOC
- torstenvl 4y ago
  archive.(today|ph|is) [edit: appears to be down for some people], no clue what's going on https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/archive.ph.html https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/archive.ph.html The AMP page works if you can't reach it via archive: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deere-to-allow-farmers-to-repair-their-own-equipment-11673228580 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deere-to-allow-farmers-to-r...
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Loads for me from multiple endpoints. Are you using Cloudflare DNS? If so, the site in question blocks DNS queries from CF. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=cloudflare+archive.is https://hn.algolia.com/?q=cloudflare+archive.is
    - AuthorizedCust 4y ago
      Websites can’t see a PC’s DNS configuration, so it can’t know what DNS resolvers a client is using except through some inference?
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702
zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
How generous of them
- chii 4y ago
  obviously they smell the direction of the wind. It's obviously better for deere to set the terms of the repairs, rather than have it be dictated to them via legislation.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
    It's ridiculous that we live in a world where the manufacturer is in the position to set terms of repairs. Once someone buys a piece of equipment it's theirs and they should be allowed to repair and modify it however they see fit.
    - the-printer 4y ago
      It is oppression.
    - randomdata 4y ago
      Deere rose up to being one of the top equipment brands because they put extra effort into ensuring the equipment was repairable. There is a lot of equipment in the scrap heap from other brands that you can't get parts for. Theoretically you can repair them, but the cost to hire someone to recreate/design a one-off part can be extraordinarily expensive. Deere likes to boast that they have parts in stock for equipment that is 75+ years old. Hell, John Deere owns A&I Products, the premier aftermarket farm equipment parts supplier (multiple brands, Deere included). They have no problem with you repairing your equipment. What happened, however, is that the equipment manufacturers in modern times streamlined manufacturing such that they created a whole line of equipment that is physically identical but differentiated by software unlocks. The problem is that if you were able to repair the software, you would be able to unlock features. It is access to those systems has been closely guarded to prevent piracy, just as all kinds of software has done for 50+ years. They do have a problem with you using software you didn't pay for.
lifebypizza 4y ago
[dead]
walterbell 4y ago
> Should state or federal right-to-repair legislation be enacted, both Deere and the federation have the right to withdraw from the agreement with 15 days’ written notice. Would be useful to compare the terms of this agreement with draft right-to-repair legislation which has been rejected by Deere and others.
- RajT88 4y ago
  I am sure this is meant to head that off if possible. Not unlike how the record companies gave in to the "Parental Advisory" label.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    All the more reason to scrutinize the actual content of the agreement.
  - rlt 4y ago
    > I am sure this is meant to head that off if possible. Indeed, and they’re not making a secret of it, see vvanders’ comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307382
user3939382 4y ago
I’ll believe it when I see it. So far every right to repair compliance on their side has been met with bad faith circumventions. Like making tools available in theory but not actually.
- hedgehog 4y ago
  My bet is this is coordinated with a lobbying effort to prevent more right to repair legislation.
- donmcronald 4y ago
  Yeah. My wishlist: - Repair manuals. - Reasonably priced replacement parts. - Give the owner a key to sign / certify any parts they want. - Give the owner the ability to disable OTA updates. - Give the government a key to sign / certify parts. - Give the government the ability to review and delay OTA updates. I don't want some mega corp in a foreign nation holding the means of food production hostage via parts serialization and DRM.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >I don't want some mega corp in a foreign nation holding the means of food production hostage via parts serialization and DRM. Governments should be acting more in their own nations' self-interest, and simply forbidding any such things from foreign vendors.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      Or governments should act more in their citizens interest, and simply forbid any such things local or foreign.
  - Foobar8568 4y ago
    Fuck lenovo Europe for parts, nothing available for an X1 C6, so around 3-4y old. Had to buy on a customer website hoping for a genuine part. What was Lenovo answer to buy a replacement battery ? Send in your laptop to diagnostic a dead battery.
mulmen 4y ago
Deere’s position on right to repair is heartbreaking to me. I paid for books (and beer) in college as a truck driver and mechanic for a custom harvest operation. We ran Deere 6602 combines from the 1970s, in the early 2000s. Deere’s tagline was “nothing runs like a Deere” but in my experience it was more like “nothing can be made to run like a Deere”. We spent a lot of time on maintenance but very little on repairs. We trusted those machines and they almost always did what we needed. Deere had good parts support locally but we did all the labor ourselves. For us and the farmers we served it would have been economically impossible to hire a Deere tech to do the work. Alienating these equipment operators is a disgrace for a once great brand.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Another MBA'ed company. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
  - rjzzleep 4y ago
    Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon.
    - throwaway20222 4y ago
      I sometimes wonder if companies should/could be forced to publish a “lifetime cost” of all of their products, much like we do energy ratings for appliances. Something that would show all of the expenses over the lifetime of the products, including estimated maintenance and lifespan before replacement so people have a better idea of the true cost of the purchase. I am confident the reporting would likely be captured by the manufacturers anyway and there would be a lot of arbitrary inputs into the reports, but something to fight the short term profit taking you describe.
      - ddulaney 4y ago
messe 4y ago
They’re only trying to delay the inevitable regulation. Here’s hoping the EU forces them to get their shit together soon.
- Animats 4y ago
  > They’re only trying to delay the inevitable regulation. Yes. That's Deere's explicit goal. The American Farm Bureau Federation had to agree not to support right-to-repair legislation to get that concession from Deere. Signed on a Sunday. Wonder why. Some legislative deadline approaching?
userbinator 4y ago
Seeing "to allow" and "their own" being used in that way in the title is a disturbingly dystopian sign of the times. I don't think things like this should ever need to be explicitly allowed, in much the same way as one does not need permission for many other things which are naturally assumed to be so. For contrast: "Government to allow people to use their own brains."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- causi 4y ago
  Hell If I had my way I'd add a "right to root" in the Constitution itself. You should have control over your hardware, period.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    You basically already have a Constitution-esque "right to root", as changing the software on hardware you own is not illegal. What we're actually dealing with is technical measures that can effectively prevent us from doing so. There are a few legal hooks that augment the natural landscape (DMCA, contract terms, etc), but remove those and the problem would remain. So unfortunately, what we're really looking for is some positive government regulations that would make companies have to publish some of their documentation and source code. That's much harder to create and draft, although for a simple first stab I would look at requiring that source code be available to make a work eligible for copyright protection.
    - causi 4y ago
      changing the software on hardware you own is not illegal Not true. The DMCA makes it illegal to "circumvent" DRM schemes. It's also illegal to carrier-unlock your phone without your carrier's permission.
      - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
patmcc 4y ago
How very magnanimous of them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
andrewstuart 4y ago
Amazing that there are businesses that do so well financially they can abuse their customers to the point of hatred, yet remain in business.
- NetOpWibby 4y ago
  That's what happens when you're a monopoly.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    John Deere is a monopoly?
    - NetOpWibby 4y ago
      I thought they were?
    - modo_mario 4y ago
      I believe they have something like 30% in the tractor market in the US but when it comes to specific types of tractors (especially the larger variants) it is much much higher. Additionally the negative effects of a monopoly can also show in a duopoly or the like. It doesn't even need cartel like collusion.
  - amelius 4y ago
    ... and watchdogs are sleeping.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- grishka 4y ago
  That's all social media companies, basically.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Honestly, the only people who hate social media are tech journalists who have an article deadline coming up fast, politicians during election years, and of course HN users.
voakbasda 4y ago
Too little too late. They have burned good faith, and this move stinks of more manipulation. As others suggested, this probably aims to thwart legislative action, and they will make everything available at an inaccessibly exorbitant price point and inexcusable lead times. Seriously, Deere has been a market leader in alienating customers for years. There is no possibility that this is being done for the benefit of their customers. Mark my works, this move will ultimately be revealed as self-serving. Meanwhile, it should be met with nothing but skepticism by customers.
- CuriousCosmic 4y ago
  this probably aims to thwart legislative action probably? From Section 3 of the MOU: In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU. https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf It's a blatant threat that they'll double down on their practices if any state or the federal government tries to pursue right to repair legislation.
  - labster 4y ago
    The easy fix here is to make clauses like this unenforceable in the right to repair bills. Not that they’ll do it, but law outranks contracts.
    - CuriousCosmic 4y ago
      I agree but the threat here is that if any one state successfully passes RTR regulation, they'll punish all the other states in response. Basically trying to put regulators and lobbying orgs into a "cold war" against them. This of course means that the only way to fix this without harming consumers is federal laws which is shitty because grassroots legal progress is far more preferable.
- mcast 4y ago
  But who would replace them?
vvanders 4y ago
Actual MOU from BBC's coverage[1]: https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf What's interesting is this appears to be driven by Right to Repair legislation that's been making it's way through various states. There's an explicit ask that AFBF not support any Right to Repair legislation: "AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU." [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913
- moloch-hai 4y ago
  Clearly intended as a threat.
- GrinningFool 4y ago
  > that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU That seems like a bit of a loophole for FB organizations - namely, they can support legislation that imposes obligations that are in the MOU, but must not support legislation the reaches beyond that.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cujaneway 4y ago
What even are the alternatives for farmers, particularly in the US where I presume Deere reigns supreme. Kubota, Kverneland? Or is it effectively a racket where every agricultural equipment manufacturer behaves the same.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  I see more Claas than Deere down under
noufalibrahim 4y ago
"allow farmers to repair their own equipment" - What a terrible state of affairs if this is an exception rather than the norm. :(
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > "allow farmers to repair their own equipment" - What a terrible state of affairs if this is an exception rather than the norm. :( Blame your fellow 'I'm just making money' loose ethics type programmer, they could just as easily be making drones used to destroy entire apartment buildings or the privacy-intruding facial recognition with that type reasoning, but instead they choose to deny farmers from making the food that you eat instead.
  - mikrotikker 4y ago
    "If I don't do it someone else will"
  - p0pcult 4y ago
    When I was in my last round of job hunting as a data scientist, a recruiter approached me with an offer to interview for a job in "kill chain analytics" for a defense contractor's drones. I noped the hell out of that asap.
  - noufalibrahim 4y ago
    Perhaps but I'd blame the executive team that decided that this was the "right" thing to do more. There's a a difference in the responsibility of the person who took the decision vs. the one who was hired to do a job and did it.
- heywhatupboys 4y ago
  ahhhh, that is disingenuous. While I 100 % agree with right to repair, the world allow is not correct in this context.
Eriks 4y ago
hell has frozen over
Neil44 4y ago
I'm not a farmer but harvest time can be pretty intense. You might only have a narrow window to get certain crops in where the crops are ready and the weather has been right and your onward destination can accept them physically and contractually. So have all the other farms. And that crop represents your yearly income. So you have all this demand in this time window and you have equipment sitting there cause computer says no. Very frustrating.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Harvest season is 15-16 hour days for months, all hands on deck. The upside is that the pay is wildly better than any other time. I’ve known a few farmhands and they claimed to not mind harvest season because of the pay.
  - jlkuester7 4y ago
    When my brother and I were in college, I worked as a farm hand the same summer he was working a computer engineering internship. His hours were capped at 39/wk and he still made more money per week than I did working 80/wk. I loved farming, but there is not a ton of money in unskilled labor. (Sure, you can do a lot better if you have skills/experience or own the farm...)
- throwaway9870 4y ago
  That is part of the reason why people buy Deere. They have superb logistics and the best dealer network in farm equipment.
Roark66 4y ago
They'll provide "tools and manuals". If this includes service software that is good. Also I wonder what kind of detail is there in those service manuals. For the mechanical components I would at least expect drawings of each assembly showing every gear, every seal, every clip with spec. For electronics I would expect at least board view files if not schematics. Do I believe this will happen before it is law to publish it? Not really. When finally those laws get proposed I fully expect manufacturers to claim "security and IP theft" exceptions and politicians will fold. I still have electronic equipment made in the 80's that had not just schematics in its manual, but pcb layout drawings so you could remake a pcb if it got destroyed... And somehow we didn't have clones of this equipment appear.
- ritabratamaiti 4y ago
  While I agree with you that companies should provide sufficient information to enable consumers to repair their products, I think considering the complexity that goes into manufacturing mechanical components and fabricating circuit boards, it would be a long shot for many consumers to repair equipment on their own. Hobbyists/industrial outfits would be a different story as they would have in-house expertise....
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  Like the Haynes and other manuals that show circuit layouts and exploded views and service descriptions for every part of a vehicle.
  - Roark66 4y ago
    Are they worth to buy for modern/semi-modern cars? I think I owned one for Peugeot 106 2002. There wasn't that much really useful stuff in it No detailed exploded mechanical drawings of all parts, just drawings showing major assemblies and selected parts. Then I bought some "service manual" cd on ebay and there was everything there. Even estimates how long it "should" take to replace specific parts.
    - mikrotikker 4y ago
fifilura 4y ago
I cant read TFA but i think if John Deere wants to maintain control over the way machines are repaired they should simply stop selling them as retail and move to a "machine as a service" model. Where they create a network of rental hubs. I think a lot of farming machinery has moved this way already where you dont pay to own a machine that you may only need a limited number of days/year.
- ilammy 4y ago
  Then they’re going to advertise rental prices for off-season, when nobody actually needs the machines. During the harvest week The Market will demand that rent quadruples. And of course you better pay a reservation in year’s advance, to avoid being told, “I’m sorry sir, we’re out of capacity today, all machines nearby are busy. We can maybe get you one from across the continent for 10 times the price, be ready here in a week.”
  - fifilura 4y ago
    I think this is how it works already with harvesters, where the demand is only really during a month of the year. I don't know the details how it works, but I am assuming there is a way they can work it out where everyone is reasonably happy. Because it is in the interest of the rental service to be predictable. And there is a huge benefit for the farmer to not have to own and store something that is probably the most expensive machine they have. And also not have to worry about it breaking down at the most critical moment. But that comes at a steep hourly price i assume. Market economy is not always a bad thing.
adql 4y ago
They should be dragged thru coals and fined for the original practice.
Havoc 4y ago
What a novel idea!
yakorevivan 4y ago
[dead]
jacquesm 4y ago
Deere's competitors should go all-in on maintainability and documentation as a countermove. When it starts to eat into their marketshare they'll pay attention, until then they will just drag their heels as much as legally possible. Unfortunately Case IH, New Holland, Claas and Kubota all have a similar attitude towards their customers, which makes this an industry wide problem, not a John Deere problem. Legislators should ignore the veiled threats and force these companies to open up 'or else'.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
  Yeah, it's kind of a joke to say that there's no problem with the "free market" in the American version of capitalism when all the big players collude on the same anti-consumer position, because they all win, and their execs take home more options and pay because of it.
  - GuB-42 4y ago
    No I think that's simply because that's actually what consumers want. The less a company makes on maintenance and repairs, the more it has to make on the initial sale, which means a higher upfront cost. People generally don't like paying a lot of money upfront, so naturally, companies will make profit in other ways. Easy to see with smartphones. When manufacturers started to make batteries non user replaceable, did it make consumers flock to manufacturers that still offered user replaceable batteries? The answer is no, consumers have chosen, they don't care, except for a minority too small for manufacturers to need caring. There are alternatives, like the Fairphone, but it is not a mainstream device, and it is expensive for its specs, so few people buy it. Not only it is our choice, but we are not even honest about it. We are happy to buy hard-to-repair devices, but then, we want to game the system by using regulation. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of the right to repair movement. But I also understand that it will go against the will of consumers by raising the prices. It is a bit like safety and the environment. We don't want cars with emission control, because they are more expensive and have more points of failure, but we are forced to buy them anyways, and it is good for all of us in the end. I think the right to repair is good for the environment and for the economy in general, so it is worth regulating.
college_physics 4y ago
Imagine its 1880 and the news of the day is that farmers are allowed to shoe their horses on their own, with horseshoes that they can procure themselves.
- p0pcult 4y ago
  Imagine it is 2080 and the news of the day is that farmers will be allowed to buy "BioSerum" that extends the expiration date of their genetically engineered HyperHorse by one month.
  - dokem 4y ago
    Imagine it is 3080 and farmers are now allowed tax free access to all of the sunlight that falls on their land.
    - college_physics 4y ago
      Imagine it is 4080: air molecules "dial home" via quantum entanglement every time they enter a farmer's body, eliminating once and for all illicit air-breathing that has gone undetected / untaxed ever since Homo Sapiens took her first breath
LatteLazy 4y ago
On the one hand, I like right to repair. On the other, Farmers are a terrible group to start with. They've actively resisted it in the past and are very unlikely to have or be willing to gain the skills needed and they are ultimately running businesses and should behave accordingly.
Hacktrick 4y ago
This is good for right to repair right? I see this as a massive W for the movement.
zelon88 4y ago
So basically, drop "right to repair" legislation so we can continue doing what we do, but in more subtle ways.
jelliclesfarm 4y ago
Tractor market will soon be geared towards Farming-As-A-Service. John Deere has already bought multiple autonomous tractor companies. The biggest ones at 305 and 250 million are Blue River and Bear Flag, Also: JV with GUSS automation orchard spraying tech. And Light for some kind of vision AI. There is a ‘startup incubator’ guy sitting in SF and JD is furiously buying everything they can get their hands on. In fact, I know at least two moderately funded startups whose sole aim is to be acquired by JD. Meanwhile Case IH/CNH is also invested in Raven(that I like a lot actually and can give a good run for JD who hasn’t been lagging behind in the grain/combine automation equip). AGCO/Massey/Fendt is looking at the retrofit sector. Bless their hearts. It’s time to consolidate just like with the Ag inputs/seeds/fertilizer where I think a few giants control almost all of the market after a flurry of mergers and acquisitions: Dow/DuPont, Sygenta/ChemChina, Bayer/Monsanto. BASF stands alone but they are not big on seeds. Dow/DuPont merged but then spun off Corteva, but it’s still incestous. It’s the Big4 now. Same thing will happen with the tractor and equipment sector with the main players being JD, CNH and AGCO. It is what it is. ETA: Let’s not forget how JD almost bought Monsanto before it went before DoJ to stop the sale and Bayer ended up paying 60 something billion for a lemon right before the Roundup trial. JD desperately wanted Climate Fieldview and Monsanto that owned Climate did NOT include it in the sale to Bayer. Fun times.
roamerz 4y ago
When I went shopping for a tractor last year this was a huge deciding factor. I bought a Kubota.
luxuryballs 4y ago
Not the onion!
pama 4y ago
Why is it illegal infringement if one modifies embedded software locally (as opposed to selling it). Is that not the equivalent of writing a note within a book? “assure that the intellectual property of Manufacturer, including copyrighted software, is fully protected from illegal infringement through the modification of Embedded Software; …”
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  You can have right of repair in 1 day the free market way - no copyright protection, patents or damages awarded for chip firmware or repair manuals. This is the great fraud of our time - Right to Repair is portrayed as government intervention in the free market and excersise in socialism When actually it is the Government that grants John Deer artifical monopoly on bits and bites and doesn't just fine, but imprisons anyone who doesnt agree. Copyright, itself a fraudulent name, is a privilidge, awarded to advance sciences and arts. Where it does not advance anything, it should not apply.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    I agree that copyright sucks, but I don't see, in copyright-free world, what would prevent a hardware manufacturer from making the firmware impossible to modify for example by using hardcoded signature verification.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      If the tractor is my property, I don't understand what gives John Derr the right to prevent me from modifying it how I see fit. Imagine they did this with a physical object, broke into your house and stopped you from opening the engine - that would be tresspass and a dozen other crimes. Why is it legal just because it's digital? This is why people are calling it Neo-feudalism or digital feudalism, the relationship is lile between me the serf and john deer the medieval Lord Also I am not against copyright, but it was created for books 200 years ago, not control software that determines if you go bancrupt, or live or die.
chadlavi 4y ago
"Allow" It's not theirs to allow or disallow. The farmers own their equipment.
- ThinkingGuy 4y ago
  They may own it, but do they 0wn it? :)
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
“Allow”
euroderf 4y ago
Haven't most of the John Deere hacks come from Ukraine ? This is a story waiting to be reported anew.
dns_snek 4y ago
> Should state or federal right-to-repair legislation be enacted, both Deere and the federation have the right to withdraw from the agreement with 15 days’ written notice. Is this supposed to be a threat? Should legislation be enacted, they would be forced to comply with it. At that point any "voluntary" agreement seems pointless. Are they trying to coerce individual states into not passing right to repair under the assumption that should one state pass a right to repair law, they would retaliate by discontinuing access to spare parts and related materials in other states? Am I missing something?
wstuartcl 4y ago
Maybe the solution is to add anti-right to repair as a major indicative element to the monopoly legislations (ie if indicated it reduces the hurdle of the other elements that must be proven dramatically). Forcing repair lock in should be indicative of monopoly behavior. Something needs to change where the perceived "cost" of building out repair lock in revenue is much higher than it currently is.
jonnycomputer 4y ago
"allow"
neycoda 4y ago
Deere's forgotten the point of their business: to provide farmers with what they need to do their jobs. When you make the company about maximizing profit, you interfere with the purpose of your business. You now get in the way of your customers getting what they need and want. This has been proven by Deere, getting in the way of farmers fixing their equipment. Deere could have instead opened their business more to repair, maximizing trust and reliability with consumers. Truly maximizing their gain in the market. Instead of making themselves the most desirable business in the market, they tried to trap people into inefficient overly-expensive time-wasting processes for the short-term gain of some shareholders and some greedy shallow executives.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Deere's forgotten the point of their business: to provide farmers with what they need to do their jobs. That’s not the point. That's marketing. > When you make the company about maximizing profit, you interfere with the purpose of your business. Maximizing profit is the general purpose of business in a capitalist society. Serving other ends is a means to that end, not the purpose.
  - timbit42 4y ago
    They focused on short-term profit and it will damage their long-term profit, if not kill them.
tablespoon 4y ago
So, it's this the typical corporate playbook tactic of offering a little concession to sap the momentum behind some positive legislation, after they've realized they can't kill it outright through regular lobbying? I bet in 5-10 years they'll be back to doing everything they can to make repair impractical.
undersuit 4y ago
I like the article title from the BBC, "US farmers win right to repair John Deere equipment", far more than this Wall Street framing. Deere fought this tooth and nail and will probably still not play nice. They are being forced to do this and must continue to be forced.
ukoki 4y ago
It should be illegal to bundle hardware with closed-source copyrighted software. If you sell hardware you can bundle it with open-source software that people are free to modify. Or you can sell it without software and other vendors can supply closed-source software that can't be modified, but you can't have exclusive agreements with those vendors or prefer one over another.
- randomdata 4y ago
  Does this extend into the used market? I buy a widget without software, install a closed source option that is available for the widget, and later want to sell it. Do I have to remove the software?
- unbalancedevh 4y ago
  I have to admit, I'd love to be able to modify the software in my microwave to disable the incessant reminder beep. But I'm not sure I agree in general that it companies shouldn't be able to copyright their own software, or put measures in place that make it impractical or impossible for me to modify it. Presumably I'm aware of that when I buy it, and I have options. But I think that's different from being able to repair it.
zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
My dad lives in rural North Dakota. He's not a farmer, but he knows all the farmers in the area and does some work at his neighbor's farm for something to keep him busy in retirement. I sent him the Ars Technica article about this. This is his text back to me "But they kept the copyright to all data and electronic tools. You have to buy their equipment and many manuals amounting to over 20k for each piece of equipment in most cases. I talked to one of the john deere mechanics, he said he only knows of one farm that has done so because of the price but did so because he also hired a guy that use to work for john deere. I thing the Most important thing farmer's get out of it is the access to the diagnostic codes and JD manuals that can be used to trouble shoot the problem once you have the code. I've seen the software used and it is dynamite. It talks the mechanic through most steps of the trouble shooting. Since everything is computerized, almost need it to understand the electronic issues which of course is all stored on the individual computer components. One for transmission,engine, power train couplings and all other devices. Yet again, it costs approximately 5-7 hundred dollars just for the mechanic to show up at the farm, each time.. so if it doesn't get fixed or no parts til the next day, that's 2 trips which doesn't include any labor... "
drannex 4y ago
This is not a right-to-repair package. This is loose permission to barely repair anything at all. > In the agreement, the AFBF says it will encourage “state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize” these commitments and “refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state ‘Right to Repair’ legislation.[^1] [^1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/9/23546323/john-deere-right-to-repair-tractors-agreement https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/9/23546323/john-deere-right-...
etempleton 4y ago
Deere has been fighting farmers on this for decades and I would be surprised if they gave up now. They want to avoid laws being passed that forces them into worse terms. If they make the decision themselves they can dictate the terms of the “right to repair.” I frankly don’t trust the product of a company who has been actively trying to screw over their customers for the past 20 years. My guess is they know that there are enough parts now that are proprietary and difficult to clone that they are going to have to go the the Deere dealer anyway. Like modern cars those things are loaded with computers and sensors. You have the right to repair it, but that doesn’t mean you have any hope to.

593 points by impish9208 4y ago

impish9208 4y ago

https://archive.ph/YbUOC https://archive.ph/YbUOC

torstenvl 4y ago
archive.(today|ph|is) [edit: appears to be down for some people], no clue what's going on https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/archive.ph.html https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/archive.ph.html The AMP page works if you can't reach it via archive: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deere-to-allow-farmers-to-repair-their-own-equipment-11673228580 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deere-to-allow-farmers-to-r...
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Loads for me from multiple endpoints. Are you using Cloudflare DNS? If so, the site in question blocks DNS queries from CF. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=cloudflare+archive.is https://hn.algolia.com/?q=cloudflare+archive.is
  - AuthorizedCust 4y ago
    Websites can’t see a PC’s DNS configuration, so it can’t know what DNS resolvers a client is using except through some inference?
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

How generous of them

chii 4y ago
obviously they smell the direction of the wind. It's obviously better for deere to set the terms of the repairs, rather than have it be dictated to them via legislation.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  It's ridiculous that we live in a world where the manufacturer is in the position to set terms of repairs. Once someone buys a piece of equipment it's theirs and they should be allowed to repair and modify it however they see fit.
  - the-printer 4y ago
    It is oppression.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    Deere rose up to being one of the top equipment brands because they put extra effort into ensuring the equipment was repairable. There is a lot of equipment in the scrap heap from other brands that you can't get parts for. Theoretically you can repair them, but the cost to hire someone to recreate/design a one-off part can be extraordinarily expensive. Deere likes to boast that they have parts in stock for equipment that is 75+ years old. Hell, John Deere owns A&I Products, the premier aftermarket farm equipment parts supplier (multiple brands, Deere included). They have no problem with you repairing your equipment. What happened, however, is that the equipment manufacturers in modern times streamlined manufacturing such that they created a whole line of equipment that is physically identical but differentiated by software unlocks. The problem is that if you were able to repair the software, you would be able to unlock features. It is access to those systems has been closely guarded to prevent piracy, just as all kinds of software has done for 50+ years. They do have a problem with you using software you didn't pay for.

lifebypizza 4y ago

[dead]

walterbell 4y ago

> Should state or federal right-to-repair legislation be enacted, both Deere and the federation have the right to withdraw from the agreement with 15 days’ written notice. Would be useful to compare the terms of this agreement with draft right-to-repair legislation which has been rejected by Deere and others.

RajT88 4y ago
I am sure this is meant to head that off if possible. Not unlike how the record companies gave in to the "Parental Advisory" label.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  All the more reason to scrutinize the actual content of the agreement.
- rlt 4y ago
  > I am sure this is meant to head that off if possible. Indeed, and they’re not making a secret of it, see vvanders’ comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34307382

user3939382 4y ago

I’ll believe it when I see it. So far every right to repair compliance on their side has been met with bad faith circumventions. Like making tools available in theory but not actually.

hedgehog 4y ago
My bet is this is coordinated with a lobbying effort to prevent more right to repair legislation.
donmcronald 4y ago
Yeah. My wishlist: - Repair manuals. - Reasonably priced replacement parts. - Give the owner a key to sign / certify any parts they want. - Give the owner the ability to disable OTA updates. - Give the government a key to sign / certify parts. - Give the government the ability to review and delay OTA updates. I don't want some mega corp in a foreign nation holding the means of food production hostage via parts serialization and DRM.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >I don't want some mega corp in a foreign nation holding the means of food production hostage via parts serialization and DRM. Governments should be acting more in their own nations' self-interest, and simply forbidding any such things from foreign vendors.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    Or governments should act more in their citizens interest, and simply forbid any such things local or foreign.
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  Fuck lenovo Europe for parts, nothing available for an X1 C6, so around 3-4y old. Had to buy on a customer website hoping for a genuine part. What was Lenovo answer to buy a replacement battery ? Send in your laptop to diagnostic a dead battery.

mulmen 4y ago

Deere’s position on right to repair is heartbreaking to me. I paid for books (and beer) in college as a truck driver and mechanic for a custom harvest operation. We ran Deere 6602 combines from the 1970s, in the early 2000s. Deere’s tagline was “nothing runs like a Deere” but in my experience it was more like “nothing can be made to run like a Deere”. We spent a lot of time on maintenance but very little on repairs. We trusted those machines and they almost always did what we needed. Deere had good parts support locally but we did all the labor ourselves. For us and the farmers we served it would have been economically impossible to hire a Deere tech to do the work. Alienating these equipment operators is a disgrace for a once great brand.

29athrowaway 4y ago
Another MBA'ed company. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
- rjzzleep 4y ago
  Short term profit at the expense of everything else. At some point there will be a reckoning on all the damage this cult has done to society, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon.
  - throwaway20222 4y ago
    I sometimes wonder if companies should/could be forced to publish a “lifetime cost” of all of their products, much like we do energy ratings for appliances. Something that would show all of the expenses over the lifetime of the products, including estimated maintenance and lifespan before replacement so people have a better idea of the true cost of the purchase. I am confident the reporting would likely be captured by the manufacturers anyway and there would be a lot of arbitrary inputs into the reports, but something to fight the short term profit taking you describe.
    - ddulaney 4y ago

messe 4y ago

They’re only trying to delay the inevitable regulation. Here’s hoping the EU forces them to get their shit together soon.

Animats 4y ago
> They’re only trying to delay the inevitable regulation. Yes. That's Deere's explicit goal. The American Farm Bureau Federation had to agree not to support right-to-repair legislation to get that concession from Deere. Signed on a Sunday. Wonder why. Some legislative deadline approaching?

userbinator 4y ago

Seeing "to allow" and "their own" being used in that way in the title is a disturbingly dystopian sign of the times. I don't think things like this should ever need to be explicitly allowed, in much the same way as one does not need permission for many other things which are naturally assumed to be so. For contrast: "Government to allow people to use their own brains."

deleted 4y ago
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causi 4y ago
Hell If I had my way I'd add a "right to root" in the Constitution itself. You should have control over your hardware, period.
- mindslight 4y ago
  You basically already have a Constitution-esque "right to root", as changing the software on hardware you own is not illegal. What we're actually dealing with is technical measures that can effectively prevent us from doing so. There are a few legal hooks that augment the natural landscape (DMCA, contract terms, etc), but remove those and the problem would remain. So unfortunately, what we're really looking for is some positive government regulations that would make companies have to publish some of their documentation and source code. That's much harder to create and draft, although for a simple first stab I would look at requiring that source code be available to make a work eligible for copyright protection.
  - causi 4y ago
    changing the software on hardware you own is not illegal Not true. The DMCA makes it illegal to "circumvent" DRM schemes. It's also illegal to carrier-unlock your phone without your carrier's permission.
    - EMIRELADERO 4y ago

patmcc 4y ago

How very magnanimous of them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

andrewstuart 4y ago

Amazing that there are businesses that do so well financially they can abuse their customers to the point of hatred, yet remain in business.

NetOpWibby 4y ago
That's what happens when you're a monopoly.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  John Deere is a monopoly?
  - NetOpWibby 4y ago
    I thought they were?
  - modo_mario 4y ago
    I believe they have something like 30% in the tractor market in the US but when it comes to specific types of tractors (especially the larger variants) it is much much higher. Additionally the negative effects of a monopoly can also show in a duopoly or the like. It doesn't even need cartel like collusion.
- amelius 4y ago
  ... and watchdogs are sleeping.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
grishka 4y ago
That's all social media companies, basically.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Honestly, the only people who hate social media are tech journalists who have an article deadline coming up fast, politicians during election years, and of course HN users.

voakbasda 4y ago

Too little too late. They have burned good faith, and this move stinks of more manipulation. As others suggested, this probably aims to thwart legislative action, and they will make everything available at an inaccessibly exorbitant price point and inexcusable lead times. Seriously, Deere has been a market leader in alienating customers for years. There is no possibility that this is being done for the benefit of their customers. Mark my works, this move will ultimately be revealed as self-serving. Meanwhile, it should be met with nothing but skepticism by customers.

CuriousCosmic 4y ago
this probably aims to thwart legislative action probably? From Section 3 of the MOU: In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU. https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf It's a blatant threat that they'll double down on their practices if any state or the federal government tries to pursue right to repair legislation.
- labster 4y ago
  The easy fix here is to make clauses like this unenforceable in the right to repair bills. Not that they’ll do it, but law outranks contracts.
  - CuriousCosmic 4y ago
    I agree but the threat here is that if any one state successfully passes RTR regulation, they'll punish all the other states in response. Basically trying to put regulators and lobbying orgs into a "cold war" against them. This of course means that the only way to fix this without harming consumers is federal laws which is shitty because grassroots legal progress is far more preferable.
mcast 4y ago
But who would replace them?

vvanders 4y ago

Actual MOU from BBC's coverage[1]: https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf What's interesting is this appears to be driven by Right to Repair legislation that's been making it's way through various states. There's an explicit ask that AFBF not support any Right to Repair legislation: "AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU." [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913

moloch-hai 4y ago
Clearly intended as a threat.
GrinningFool 4y ago
> that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU That seems like a bit of a loophole for FB organizations - namely, they can support legislation that imposes obligations that are in the MOU, but must not support legislation the reaches beyond that.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cujaneway 4y ago

What even are the alternatives for farmers, particularly in the US where I presume Deere reigns supreme. Kubota, Kverneland? Or is it effectively a racket where every agricultural equipment manufacturer behaves the same.

mikrotikker 4y ago
I see more Claas than Deere down under

noufalibrahim 4y ago

"allow farmers to repair their own equipment" - What a terrible state of affairs if this is an exception rather than the norm. :(

Melting_Harps 4y ago
> "allow farmers to repair their own equipment" - What a terrible state of affairs if this is an exception rather than the norm. :( Blame your fellow 'I'm just making money' loose ethics type programmer, they could just as easily be making drones used to destroy entire apartment buildings or the privacy-intruding facial recognition with that type reasoning, but instead they choose to deny farmers from making the food that you eat instead.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  "If I don't do it someone else will"
- p0pcult 4y ago
  When I was in my last round of job hunting as a data scientist, a recruiter approached me with an offer to interview for a job in "kill chain analytics" for a defense contractor's drones. I noped the hell out of that asap.
- noufalibrahim 4y ago
  Perhaps but I'd blame the executive team that decided that this was the "right" thing to do more. There's a a difference in the responsibility of the person who took the decision vs. the one who was hired to do a job and did it.
heywhatupboys 4y ago
ahhhh, that is disingenuous. While I 100 % agree with right to repair, the world allow is not correct in this context.

Eriks 4y ago

hell has frozen over

Neil44 4y ago

I'm not a farmer but harvest time can be pretty intense. You might only have a narrow window to get certain crops in where the crops are ready and the weather has been right and your onward destination can accept them physically and contractually. So have all the other farms. And that crop represents your yearly income. So you have all this demand in this time window and you have equipment sitting there cause computer says no. Very frustrating.

geraldwhen 4y ago
Harvest season is 15-16 hour days for months, all hands on deck. The upside is that the pay is wildly better than any other time. I’ve known a few farmhands and they claimed to not mind harvest season because of the pay.
- jlkuester7 4y ago
  When my brother and I were in college, I worked as a farm hand the same summer he was working a computer engineering internship. His hours were capped at 39/wk and he still made more money per week than I did working 80/wk. I loved farming, but there is not a ton of money in unskilled labor. (Sure, you can do a lot better if you have skills/experience or own the farm...)
throwaway9870 4y ago
That is part of the reason why people buy Deere. They have superb logistics and the best dealer network in farm equipment.

Roark66 4y ago

They'll provide "tools and manuals". If this includes service software that is good. Also I wonder what kind of detail is there in those service manuals. For the mechanical components I would at least expect drawings of each assembly showing every gear, every seal, every clip with spec. For electronics I would expect at least board view files if not schematics. Do I believe this will happen before it is law to publish it? Not really. When finally those laws get proposed I fully expect manufacturers to claim "security and IP theft" exceptions and politicians will fold. I still have electronic equipment made in the 80's that had not just schematics in its manual, but pcb layout drawings so you could remake a pcb if it got destroyed... And somehow we didn't have clones of this equipment appear.

ritabratamaiti 4y ago
While I agree with you that companies should provide sufficient information to enable consumers to repair their products, I think considering the complexity that goes into manufacturing mechanical components and fabricating circuit boards, it would be a long shot for many consumers to repair equipment on their own. Hobbyists/industrial outfits would be a different story as they would have in-house expertise....
mikrotikker 4y ago
Like the Haynes and other manuals that show circuit layouts and exploded views and service descriptions for every part of a vehicle.
- Roark66 4y ago
  Are they worth to buy for modern/semi-modern cars? I think I owned one for Peugeot 106 2002. There wasn't that much really useful stuff in it No detailed exploded mechanical drawings of all parts, just drawings showing major assemblies and selected parts. Then I bought some "service manual" cd on ebay and there was everything there. Even estimates how long it "should" take to replace specific parts.
  - mikrotikker 4y ago

fifilura 4y ago

I cant read TFA but i think if John Deere wants to maintain control over the way machines are repaired they should simply stop selling them as retail and move to a "machine as a service" model. Where they create a network of rental hubs. I think a lot of farming machinery has moved this way already where you dont pay to own a machine that you may only need a limited number of days/year.

ilammy 4y ago
Then they’re going to advertise rental prices for off-season, when nobody actually needs the machines. During the harvest week The Market will demand that rent quadruples. And of course you better pay a reservation in year’s advance, to avoid being told, “I’m sorry sir, we’re out of capacity today, all machines nearby are busy. We can maybe get you one from across the continent for 10 times the price, be ready here in a week.”
- fifilura 4y ago
  I think this is how it works already with harvesters, where the demand is only really during a month of the year. I don't know the details how it works, but I am assuming there is a way they can work it out where everyone is reasonably happy. Because it is in the interest of the rental service to be predictable. And there is a huge benefit for the farmer to not have to own and store something that is probably the most expensive machine they have. And also not have to worry about it breaking down at the most critical moment. But that comes at a steep hourly price i assume. Market economy is not always a bad thing.

adql 4y ago

They should be dragged thru coals and fined for the original practice.

Havoc 4y ago

What a novel idea!

yakorevivan 4y ago

[dead]

jacquesm 4y ago

Deere's competitors should go all-in on maintainability and documentation as a countermove. When it starts to eat into their marketshare they'll pay attention, until then they will just drag their heels as much as legally possible. Unfortunately Case IH, New Holland, Claas and Kubota all have a similar attitude towards their customers, which makes this an industry wide problem, not a John Deere problem. Legislators should ignore the veiled threats and force these companies to open up 'or else'.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
Yeah, it's kind of a joke to say that there's no problem with the "free market" in the American version of capitalism when all the big players collude on the same anti-consumer position, because they all win, and their execs take home more options and pay because of it.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  No I think that's simply because that's actually what consumers want. The less a company makes on maintenance and repairs, the more it has to make on the initial sale, which means a higher upfront cost. People generally don't like paying a lot of money upfront, so naturally, companies will make profit in other ways. Easy to see with smartphones. When manufacturers started to make batteries non user replaceable, did it make consumers flock to manufacturers that still offered user replaceable batteries? The answer is no, consumers have chosen, they don't care, except for a minority too small for manufacturers to need caring. There are alternatives, like the Fairphone, but it is not a mainstream device, and it is expensive for its specs, so few people buy it. Not only it is our choice, but we are not even honest about it. We are happy to buy hard-to-repair devices, but then, we want to game the system by using regulation. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of the right to repair movement. But I also understand that it will go against the will of consumers by raising the prices. It is a bit like safety and the environment. We don't want cars with emission control, because they are more expensive and have more points of failure, but we are forced to buy them anyways, and it is good for all of us in the end. I think the right to repair is good for the environment and for the economy in general, so it is worth regulating.

college_physics 4y ago

Imagine its 1880 and the news of the day is that farmers are allowed to shoe their horses on their own, with horseshoes that they can procure themselves.

p0pcult 4y ago
Imagine it is 2080 and the news of the day is that farmers will be allowed to buy "BioSerum" that extends the expiration date of their genetically engineered HyperHorse by one month.
- dokem 4y ago
  Imagine it is 3080 and farmers are now allowed tax free access to all of the sunlight that falls on their land.
  - college_physics 4y ago
    Imagine it is 4080: air molecules "dial home" via quantum entanglement every time they enter a farmer's body, eliminating once and for all illicit air-breathing that has gone undetected / untaxed ever since Homo Sapiens took her first breath

LatteLazy 4y ago

On the one hand, I like right to repair. On the other, Farmers are a terrible group to start with. They've actively resisted it in the past and are very unlikely to have or be willing to gain the skills needed and they are ultimately running businesses and should behave accordingly.

Hacktrick 4y ago

This is good for right to repair right? I see this as a massive W for the movement.

zelon88 4y ago

So basically, drop "right to repair" legislation so we can continue doing what we do, but in more subtle ways.

jelliclesfarm 4y ago

Tractor market will soon be geared towards Farming-As-A-Service. John Deere has already bought multiple autonomous tractor companies. The biggest ones at 305 and 250 million are Blue River and Bear Flag, Also: JV with GUSS automation orchard spraying tech. And Light for some kind of vision AI. There is a ‘startup incubator’ guy sitting in SF and JD is furiously buying everything they can get their hands on. In fact, I know at least two moderately funded startups whose sole aim is to be acquired by JD. Meanwhile Case IH/CNH is also invested in Raven(that I like a lot actually and can give a good run for JD who hasn’t been lagging behind in the grain/combine automation equip). AGCO/Massey/Fendt is looking at the retrofit sector. Bless their hearts. It’s time to consolidate just like with the Ag inputs/seeds/fertilizer where I think a few giants control almost all of the market after a flurry of mergers and acquisitions: Dow/DuPont, Sygenta/ChemChina, Bayer/Monsanto. BASF stands alone but they are not big on seeds. Dow/DuPont merged but then spun off Corteva, but it’s still incestous. It’s the Big4 now. Same thing will happen with the tractor and equipment sector with the main players being JD, CNH and AGCO. It is what it is. ETA: Let’s not forget how JD almost bought Monsanto before it went before DoJ to stop the sale and Bayer ended up paying 60 something billion for a lemon right before the Roundup trial. JD desperately wanted Climate Fieldview and Monsanto that owned Climate did NOT include it in the sale to Bayer. Fun times.

roamerz 4y ago

When I went shopping for a tractor last year this was a huge deciding factor. I bought a Kubota.

luxuryballs 4y ago

Not the onion!

pama 4y ago

Why is it illegal infringement if one modifies embedded software locally (as opposed to selling it). Is that not the equivalent of writing a note within a book? “assure that the intellectual property of Manufacturer, including copyrighted software, is fully protected from illegal infringement through the modification of Embedded Software; …”

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
You can have right of repair in 1 day the free market way - no copyright protection, patents or damages awarded for chip firmware or repair manuals. This is the great fraud of our time - Right to Repair is portrayed as government intervention in the free market and excersise in socialism When actually it is the Government that grants John Deer artifical monopoly on bits and bites and doesn't just fine, but imprisons anyone who doesnt agree. Copyright, itself a fraudulent name, is a privilidge, awarded to advance sciences and arts. Where it does not advance anything, it should not apply.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  I agree that copyright sucks, but I don't see, in copyright-free world, what would prevent a hardware manufacturer from making the firmware impossible to modify for example by using hardcoded signature verification.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    If the tractor is my property, I don't understand what gives John Derr the right to prevent me from modifying it how I see fit. Imagine they did this with a physical object, broke into your house and stopped you from opening the engine - that would be tresspass and a dozen other crimes. Why is it legal just because it's digital? This is why people are calling it Neo-feudalism or digital feudalism, the relationship is lile between me the serf and john deer the medieval Lord Also I am not against copyright, but it was created for books 200 years ago, not control software that determines if you go bancrupt, or live or die.

chadlavi 4y ago

"Allow" It's not theirs to allow or disallow. The farmers own their equipment.

ThinkingGuy 4y ago
They may own it, but do they 0wn it? :)

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

“Allow”

euroderf 4y ago

Haven't most of the John Deere hacks come from Ukraine ? This is a story waiting to be reported anew.

dns_snek 4y ago

> Should state or federal right-to-repair legislation be enacted, both Deere and the federation have the right to withdraw from the agreement with 15 days’ written notice. Is this supposed to be a threat? Should legislation be enacted, they would be forced to comply with it. At that point any "voluntary" agreement seems pointless. Are they trying to coerce individual states into not passing right to repair under the assumption that should one state pass a right to repair law, they would retaliate by discontinuing access to spare parts and related materials in other states? Am I missing something?

wstuartcl 4y ago

Maybe the solution is to add anti-right to repair as a major indicative element to the monopoly legislations (ie if indicated it reduces the hurdle of the other elements that must be proven dramatically). Forcing repair lock in should be indicative of monopoly behavior. Something needs to change where the perceived "cost" of building out repair lock in revenue is much higher than it currently is.

jonnycomputer 4y ago

"allow"

neycoda 4y ago

Deere's forgotten the point of their business: to provide farmers with what they need to do their jobs. When you make the company about maximizing profit, you interfere with the purpose of your business. You now get in the way of your customers getting what they need and want. This has been proven by Deere, getting in the way of farmers fixing their equipment. Deere could have instead opened their business more to repair, maximizing trust and reliability with consumers. Truly maximizing their gain in the market. Instead of making themselves the most desirable business in the market, they tried to trap people into inefficient overly-expensive time-wasting processes for the short-term gain of some shareholders and some greedy shallow executives.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Deere's forgotten the point of their business: to provide farmers with what they need to do their jobs. That’s not the point. That's marketing. > When you make the company about maximizing profit, you interfere with the purpose of your business. Maximizing profit is the general purpose of business in a capitalist society. Serving other ends is a means to that end, not the purpose.
- timbit42 4y ago
  They focused on short-term profit and it will damage their long-term profit, if not kill them.

tablespoon 4y ago

So, it's this the typical corporate playbook tactic of offering a little concession to sap the momentum behind some positive legislation, after they've realized they can't kill it outright through regular lobbying? I bet in 5-10 years they'll be back to doing everything they can to make repair impractical.

undersuit 4y ago

I like the article title from the BBC, "US farmers win right to repair John Deere equipment", far more than this Wall Street framing. Deere fought this tooth and nail and will probably still not play nice. They are being forced to do this and must continue to be forced.

ukoki 4y ago

It should be illegal to bundle hardware with closed-source copyrighted software. If you sell hardware you can bundle it with open-source software that people are free to modify. Or you can sell it without software and other vendors can supply closed-source software that can't be modified, but you can't have exclusive agreements with those vendors or prefer one over another.

randomdata 4y ago
Does this extend into the used market? I buy a widget without software, install a closed source option that is available for the widget, and later want to sell it. Do I have to remove the software?
unbalancedevh 4y ago
I have to admit, I'd love to be able to modify the software in my microwave to disable the incessant reminder beep. But I'm not sure I agree in general that it companies shouldn't be able to copyright their own software, or put measures in place that make it impractical or impossible for me to modify it. Presumably I'm aware of that when I buy it, and I have options. But I think that's different from being able to repair it.

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

My dad lives in rural North Dakota. He's not a farmer, but he knows all the farmers in the area and does some work at his neighbor's farm for something to keep him busy in retirement. I sent him the Ars Technica article about this. This is his text back to me "But they kept the copyright to all data and electronic tools. You have to buy their equipment and many manuals amounting to over 20k for each piece of equipment in most cases. I talked to one of the john deere mechanics, he said he only knows of one farm that has done so because of the price but did so because he also hired a guy that use to work for john deere. I thing the Most important thing farmer's get out of it is the access to the diagnostic codes and JD manuals that can be used to trouble shoot the problem once you have the code. I've seen the software used and it is dynamite. It talks the mechanic through most steps of the trouble shooting. Since everything is computerized, almost need it to understand the electronic issues which of course is all stored on the individual computer components. One for transmission,engine, power train couplings and all other devices. Yet again, it costs approximately 5-7 hundred dollars just for the mechanic to show up at the farm, each time.. so if it doesn't get fixed or no parts til the next day, that's 2 trips which doesn't include any labor... "

drannex 4y ago

This is not a right-to-repair package. This is loose permission to barely repair anything at all. > In the agreement, the AFBF says it will encourage “state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize” these commitments and “refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state ‘Right to Repair’ legislation.[^1] [^1]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/9/23546323/john-deere-right-to-repair-tractors-agreement https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/9/23546323/john-deere-right-...

etempleton 4y ago

Deere has been fighting farmers on this for decades and I would be surprised if they gave up now. They want to avoid laws being passed that forces them into worse terms. If they make the decision themselves they can dictate the terms of the “right to repair.” I frankly don’t trust the product of a company who has been actively trying to screw over their customers for the past 20 years. My guess is they know that there are enough parts now that are proprietary and difficult to clone that they are going to have to go the the Deere dealer anyway. Like modern cars those things are loaded with computers and sensors. You have the right to repair it, but that doesn’t mean you have any hope to.