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You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme col

• GalenErso 4y ago
  Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively expensive. That 2035 deadline is never not going to be pushed back unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat.
  • Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    I mean by that metric, it's hard to figure out how to install a dryer in your house too. It's the same circuitry.
    • rtkwe 4y ago
      With the difference that the dryer connections are usually installed when the house is built so there's easy access to run the wires to and from the breaker box. Installing them afterwards is more expensive and complicated to do because of the limited access. It's also not something you can expect to find anywhere other than at another EV owner's place. Admittedly over time that will become less of an issue but for now it's going to be pretty rare.
      • tshaddox 4y ago
        Right, so you’re only saying that EVs are new, not that they’re more difficult to setup than a dryer.
        • rtkwe 4y ago
          No for existing construction they will be more complex because the walls are all closed in so routing the 220V cable to the outside or garage is more difficult. Electrical is done before the walls are finished for a reason... Maybe not if you're lucky and the existing dryer connection is already in your garage but it's not going to be that simple for most people. Again dryer connections get installed at build time and have for the last couple decades so most people already have them.
      • krater23 4y ago
        I'm an opponent of EV, but bring a cable from power input to garage is really not a big problem. Done that for many things over the last 20 years, including network cabling for internet access.
        • rtkwe 4y ago
          I'm just saying it's more work not that it's impossible work. Also a high current 240V cable is way more trouble than a CAT cable.
  • camgunz 4y ago
    It sounds like just 1 requirement
  • gambiting 4y ago
    But......EVs do work in cold weather? You lose a bit of range, but so what? My ICE car also gets worse mileage in winter. And if you're talking about extremes - then there's a reason why block heaters with external power connections are very common in certain places - even the best ICE struggles to start in -40C or less.
    • simfree 4y ago
      18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.
      • TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
        I live in place that routinely goes below freezing in winter. I’ve never noticed gas mileage change because of temperature. I would definitely notice a difference of 8 MPG. Where do you get that info? Is it personal experience? If so, where do you live?
        • simfree 4y ago
          Here in the Pacific Northwest, driving both last winter in BC and currently in the mix of snow, freezing rain and slush. I'm using the same three peaks rated all season tires as I was using in the summer, and driving the same routes as well.
        • gambiting 4y ago
          I easily notice the difference in my car, it goes from about 8L/100km in summer to 10L/100km in winter. That's on the same tyres in both seasons.
          • bch 4y ago
            Driving through snow?
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • simfree 4y ago
    Charging EVs is easy and simple if you just plug in when arriving at a location. Doesn't matter whether it's Level 1 charging at 1.5kW (120v) or Level 2 at 6.8kW, or if it's -11F out, just plug it in and give it time to charge. Leaving your car unplugged in a frigid environment will cold soak the pack and cause your pack to spend an hour or two worth of energy heating up to temp on Level 1 charging, or 10 to 15 minutes on Level 2 charging. This is normal and you just need to leave the car plugged in. With an ICE car your heating generally takes minutes to heat up, versus I can have my car ready in a minute or two with just turning on the heat to melt off the quarter inch of ice build up on my windshield and windows.
  • jchw 4y ago
    All things have defined limits; Your gasoline will stop working at like -40 F. And while ICE vehicles have reliable mileage in the winter, they are absolutely prone to issues related to extreme weather. Also, I'm curious where you get the 30 requirements from, since for the most part it's basically just having an outlet installed. Not everyone can do that, sure. Not everyone can ride a bike to work, either. What's the point of this flippant crap?
  • Enginerrrd 4y ago
    Yeah, the biggest thing EV proponents seem to miss is that you don't need to force it to be 100% for everyone. Confine any mandates to urban centers where it makes sense, you can get buy in from everyone and solve 95% of the problem. At that point there will be lower hanging fruits than the last 5% or w/e.
    • NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Chargers are a problem for apartments in urban centers though.
      • Gigachad 4y ago
        It’s not a technical problem, it’s just an effort and cost thing. As soon as people start demanding it, the problem will be solved pretty quick. I’ve seen new developments advertising electric car chargers already.
      • nicoburns 4y ago
        People in apartments must be parking their cars somewhere. You just need to put chargers wherever people are already parking their cars.
        • fomine3 4y ago
          It can't "just" put for mechanical parking system.
          • nicoburns 4y ago
            > mechanical parking system Are those common? I know they exist, but I thought they were unusual. I've certainly never seen an actual one.
            • fomine3 4y ago
              It's common here in Japan city area, since street parking is not allowed
  • neon_electro 4y ago
    Do you just assume all EVs lose massive amounts of battery state of charge while unplugged? There's a reason Tesla vehicles lose battery while parked and unplugged; they have cameras and other computer systems continuing to run, sapping power. On the other hand, I have driven a 2018 Bolt EV for 4 years, 48k miles, and never once had an issue with the car being unplugged and returning to a car with less range than I left it.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • jws 4y ago
    Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that we have 100 years of infrastructure behind our internal combustion engines and about 10 behind the electric vehicles. In the first 10 years of internal combustion engines, you bought benzene at the local apothecary and used that to fuel your car. Three years of EV in a more or less unheated garage and I'm still just charging off my 15A 120V outlet. It's fine. I plug in every other day or so. But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.
    • alphabettsy 4y ago
      Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs. You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.
      • estebank 4y ago
        Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other? "Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation." "I need a truck for my farm." "Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible." "I don't live in a city and the bus only comes twice every day and I have to drive 30 miles to work." These are not mutually exclusive statements! EVs aren't great for long distance transportation. Particularly ill suited for long haul trucking in winter. But that's not what most people do. Most vehicles drive short distances in fair weather. Many American families have more than one car. That second car doesn't need to be able to drive cross country in the winter. I don't complain that my sneakers are not snow shoes so they are useless to me and anyone else. No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. At most there might be restrictions on usage in cities, no different to how some european cities keep private cars outside of historical city centers.
  • hristov 4y ago
    With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and expensive repair. Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. And it is much more complex and can be much more expensive. Once you start getting cracks in various things and liquids flowing where they should not be you will wish for the simplicity of just plugging in your EV. So lets not pretend that driving in the cold is some kind of new problem that EVs introduced.
    • olivermarks 4y ago
      'all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately.' the coolant in ICE vehicles is called antifreeze, only an idiot would substitute H20 for that in cold weather, or any other time for that matter as it is designed to help protect the interior of the engine.
    • alphabettsy 4y ago
      > Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. > I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. Engines do not freeze in the conditions common in most of the US, even with winter like we’re currently having. The engine coolant is a mixture of anti-freeze and water.
      • Swenrekcah 4y ago
        > People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?
  • tshaddox 4y ago
    But most of those “worries” are things you do upfront when choosing where to live or what car to get. And most of those worries have analogous worries for ICE vehicles if you’re really going to be living or frequently driving in extreme cold temperatures or snowy/icy weather. If you live in the Bay Area you probably can’t just take your ICE vehicle to Tahoe on a whim in the winter. You’ll have to consider for a moment what car you have, what kind of tires are on it, and what the weather and road conditions are. Again, it’s upfront “worrying,” not some constant sense of dread that you can’t eliminate with a bit of upfront consideration.
  • micromacrofoot 4y ago
    The majority of the country doesn't live in an area that regularly gets extremely cold and even fewer people drive 100 miles every other day. EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people. I live in an area that does get below freezing, and my car preheats the battery before I unplug it to go somewhere while the cabin warms.
    • lelanthran 4y ago
      > EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people. If they're good enough for only most people, why are they mandating it for everyone?
      • kalleboo 4y ago
        Nobody is mandating EVs for everyone today.
    • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      „It works on my computer”.
  • b112 4y ago
    unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat. It's call h2, and multiple cars on the road (kia, toyota, hyundia) work just fine. One federal funding/grant program, and refuel stations will abound. And h2 is every bit as green as electric, for both can be supplied via green methods.
  • bumby 4y ago
    There’s a reason why many northern areas (esp. Canada) have diesel trucks that come equipped with a plug-in block heater.
    • Scoundreller 4y ago
      There’s often not-very-visible differences between Canadian and US car models, even base models. Canadian BMWs will all have the “cold weather package”, which for me means heated seats and an H8 battery instead of a smaller H6. For my mom’s old Corolla, it means a 1.6kw starter instead of the 1.4 in the US models (which became a sorta problem when I bought a refurb at a Canadian parts store…)
      • matwood 4y ago
        I lived in the south and moved to Denver for a period. I had a RWD 4-runner at the time and got stuck in snow. The people I knew in Denver had no idea they even sold non-4wd 4-runners... I'm guessing only FWD/4WD version of vehicles are also sold in Canada.
  • thefounder 4y ago
    >> I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. But you don't have a gas station at home, don't you? So you have to worry about gas stations and how far they are. And your car makes you and other people sick(i.e cancer and various diseases due polution)! That's so 2020! On a more serious note you are comparing the shortcommings of an emerging technology with a mature technology. Saying that the old tech is better makes no sense to me.
  • 8note 4y ago
    You sound like somebody who's never had to plug your car in at night to make sure that it'll start in the morning. ICE cars still need electricity to start
    • Auracle 4y ago
      Eh. I’ve found with modern cars they can still start at -30f just fine. At least, mine can. My first car? I had to constantly give it gas for a while even once it started. People gave me funny looks when I was essentially revving my engine like I was showing off in my ‘88 Grand Marquis at stop signs in the year 2005.
      • inferiorhuman 4y ago
        Eh? A gasoline powered car will struggle in the cold because: - the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - gasoline won't atomize as well when it's being sprayed into a cold environment (this is why your engine runs richer right after a cold start) A diesel powered car will struggle because: - the temperature of the engine may be too low to allow ignition - the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - the devices used to heat the engine (glow plugs or intake heaters) require plenty of electricity - the fuel itself may turn into gel (although I think most places in the US only ever sell #2 diesel year-round) - the engine itself may not stay warm enough to run especially if you're also trying to pull heat out into the cabin None of that's changed dramatically in the past 40 years although engine management has gotten better.
        • Auracle 4y ago
          I don't disagree, but I can only tell you my experience. My car (a freakin' Camaro that I drive year round) has yet to fail to start, and it's 11 years old at this point too. The radio doesn't work when it's below 10 degrees though, so that's fun.
  • EdwardDiego 4y ago
    > And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. Although, if you're filling when it's hot, you're getting slightly less gas than when it's cold.
  • bboygravity 4y ago
    True, with an ICE car you only need to worry about things constantly and randomly breaking down or wearing out and the fuel prices bankrupting you. Disclaimer: I never owned a Tesla and only ever drove ICE.
  • jhoechtl 4y ago
    I really hope the way EV infrastructure is set up in the US wil not take over to Europe. I really hope that alternative energy storage like hydrogen make the race. Present battery technology for cod winter Europe is not practical.
    • alwayslikethis 4y ago
      Much of the interior US has colder winters than most of Europe barring the far north of Scandinavia and Russia.
  • ReactiveJelly 4y ago
    Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something? Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions. No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-off.
    • jhoechtl 4y ago
      Yeah, strangely people talk as if hybrid id a thing of the past although its the best of both worlds.
      • Hamuko 4y ago
        It's also the worst of both worlds at the same time, since you have the issues of both petrol engines and battery electric cars. Your 50 km of pure electric range drops to like 20 km in the winter, and after that you're driving on your cold-ass petrol engine and lugging around a heavy battery. I drove my mom's BMW 530e plug-in hybrid to the store and back (5 km in each direction). At the end, I think we had 5 km of range left. Granted, it did handle a grocery run just on battery and the heating system worked well, but that was about all that it had. The NEDC rating for the car is 50 km of electric range.
    • piotrkaminski 4y ago
      I have much the same question -- it seems like PHEVs would be perfect for the next 10 years or so, while we improve batteries and build out charging infrastructure. And yet there are relatively few PHEVs on the market, and most of them have <40 miles of electric range, whereas I think you'd really want something like double that number (especially in the context of this article!). I'm really curious to see what Mazda will do with the MX-30 next year. It's an dismal failure as a pure EV, but apparently they're planning to add a rotary engine as a pure generator to it (i.e., not driving the wheels). If the car keeps the current version's 100 mile electric range that could be a very interesting combo.
    • smiley1437 4y ago
  • StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Not to mention the fact that large portions of the United States are undergoing rolling blackouts right now No, they're not.
      • StanislavPetrov 4y ago
        https://www.wral.com/25-000-without-power-in-wake-arctic-blast-moves-in/20642042/ https://www.wral.com/25-000-without-power-in-wake-arctic-bla...
        • inferiorhuman 4y ago
          Right. You're equating storm damage and armed attacks on infrastructure to insufficient capacity in general.
  • tnel77 4y ago
    Perhaps warmer states won’t need to worry about the cold and the issues it brings?
  • alliao 4y ago
    ICE cars were built without thinking about efficiency in a way, there were plenty of heat to go around due to the nature of combustion. The EV seem fragile but it is because it's so efficient so anything that affects the efficiency becomes quite noticeable... nothing wrong with being a bit more efficient everywhere we can.
  • LinuxBender 4y ago
    My ICE vehicle would like a heated garage. At -10F -23C she gets upset with me. At -25F -31C she tells me where to stick the key. I work around the issue with an oil pan heater and a couple of heat lamps but I do need to build a garage and stop waiting for wood/steel prices to come back down. As for EV's I am going to wait and see how the UPS trucks manage here. That should be some time in early 2023, hopefully before spring time.
  • last_responder 4y ago
    30 you say? Please list them.
• rtkwe 4y ago
  Check their post again their car lost loads of charge over a very short range because of the cold so in effect it was losing range overnight. It lost 15 miles over 1 mile of driving and another ~15-20 on the next mile driving back.
  • MBCook 4y ago
    But it was on level one charging (110v). A level two charger, even a slow one, should be able provide enough current to heat the battery and still charge the battery at the same time.
    • rtkwe 4y ago
      Most of the time if you're not at your own home you'll be on 110V chargers. To get 220V charging at someone else's you're likely either at another EV owners house who's gone through the trouble of installing a 220V port or you're lucky and they have a conveniently placed dryer in the garage you can steal 220V power from.
      • Scoundreller 4y ago
        > conveniently placed dryer in the garage That’s only a warm climate thing. Plumbing (of the associated washing machine) that’s prone to freezing is unlikely to be in the garage in cooler climates.
        • vosper 4y ago
          There’s no particular reason that a dryer and washer have to go in the same room. I have my dryer in my garage, because it’s a hybrid heat-pump model that is very efficient when the garage is warmed up from the afternoon sun, but can provide its own heat in winter. It captures all the water in a tank, so doesn’t put any moisture into the room. Modern dryers are really quite neat :)
          • Scoundreller 4y ago
• bigcloud1299 4y ago
  I guarantee that you don’t own a all Electric V. I own 2018 model S and I concur with the Op of this thread that’s the case. Charging is a huge pain in cold weather. I have insulated my garage doors and am able to keep the temp at around 45 in cold winters ( I am in Redmond).
  • mynameisvlad 4y ago
    A 240V charger, as parent commenter said, more than makes up for whatever losses are inherent in heating the car and battery. I have an uncovered space and it’s fine. Yeah, the battery sucks in the cold, and it takes longer to charge, but realistically it’s not like you need to use your car 24/7. Leaving it for a few hours overnight charges it to full, and you can schedule defrosting or do it from the app so the car is warm when you get in. It’s far from “a huge pain”.
    • tjoff 4y ago
      Surely depends on how cold it is? As well as amperage... In Sweden there were lot of reports of people being unable to charge with 230V 10A. Sure, you'd make sure to install a more powerful charger if necessary. But that requires you and everywhere else to be adapted for EVs. Which is a pain.
      • glogla 4y ago
        Is 10A common in Sweden? Around here, every basic socket is rated 230V 16A and even apartments typically have each phase 230V 25A. And then you can go to multiple phases. (Funny thing, this is kind oversized for domestic applications and the driver behind it is that the law says you pay fee based on maximum amperage of your connection, so electricity companies refuse to install anything smaller than 25A and give everyone they can three-phase so they make more money.) Also, how adapting to EVs is a huge pain but LITERALLY DESTROYING THE WORLD THROUGH CLIMATE CHANGE is not, I don't get it.
        • buran77 4y ago
• nine_k 4y ago
  I wonder when batteries will come with better thermal insulation to work during cold weather. A battery which is not near-dead has enough energy to heat itself to the point where its capacity increases a lot, given adequate thermal insulation. (But, of course, that would require even better cooling for a battery on a summer +95F day. OTOH ICEs have a similar problem.)