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ByteDance confirmed it used TikTok to monitor journalists’ physical location

758 points by alphabetting 4y ago

DoItToMe81 4y ago
"The Chinese are stealing your data and spying on you! This is deeply immoral and unprecedentedly bad!" - The Americans Stealing Your Data and Spying On You
alphabetting 4y ago
Tdlr: Tiktok's Chinese parent company used Tiktok user data to track US journalists who uncovered they were accessing US user data in China.
- choppaface 4y ago
  Related: the story is about Forbes journalists. And Forbes journalists include fraudsters: https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/woman-accused-of-4-5-billion-crypto-laundering-scheme-also-wrote-a-bunch-of-stuff-for-forbes-and-inc/ https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/woman-accused-of-4-5-billi...
  - throwaway29812 4y ago
    Not related unless you can specifically tie the two together. Otherwise you are engaging in ad hominem attacks.
aaron695 4y ago
[dead]
ironyman 4y ago
https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-data-trump-ban https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-d... Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Mark Warner argues that even if there is nothing wrong with Tiktok it ought to be banned because it gives China a crucial edge in the development of AI tools that American companies don't have. China is able to freely access Western markets but not the other way around. > Finally, there’s the fear that China will be able to use TikTok’s data to power its AI innovations. That’s an advantage the US won’t have because its social media apps are banned in China and because there aren’t laws that would compel social media companies to hand over data just because the government wants it. > “They are aggregating literally billions and billions of images of not just Americans but people from around the world who are using TikTok,” Warner said. “That gives them so much more data to help them create tools that can be utilized in the AI world.”
- thomasahle 4y ago
  > That’s an advantage the US won’t have because [its social media apps are banned in China and] because there aren’t laws that would compel social media companies to hand over data just because the government wants it. Wait, why would it be an advantage for creation of AI in the US if social media companies (or company) could be more easily compelled to give our data to the government? Given that it's the social media company we are expecting to produce the AI anyway.
  - wyldberry 4y ago
    Because Bytedance and similar orgs are merged with the CCP. So they pass data up the chain, and the CCP can make new rules, investments, and directives with it. This allows the CCP to accelerate with this data in ways that the US cannot. So CCP gets full access to American residents, without reciprocating US social media actions within it, and then compels Bytedance to give it access.
    - guhidalg 4y ago
      Can you give me a real example of this data? I don’t doubt it happens, I just want an example to cite.
dang 4y ago
Related: ByteDance planned to use TikTok to surveil specific American citizens - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 - Oct 2022 (208 comments) Leaked Audio from TikTok Meetings – US User Data Repeatedly Accessed from China - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31781146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31781146 - June 2022 (12 comments)
- stmw 4y ago
  Thank you for adding excellent context, as you usually do, dang. It's strange how so many discussions on this topic seem to proceed with no prior inputs, it's puzzling.
zug_zug 4y ago
I feel like this is talking out of both sides of the mouth. If the issue is that corporations aren't following data privacy laws, build the privacy into the tool at the software/ecosystem level (e.g make signup without true name / phone number / IMEI a legal requirement, signup without location sharing a legal requirement) then it'll be impossible to track journalists for both Chinese and American companies.
- Xeoncross 4y ago
  Forget corporations, I'm concerned about what the governments are doing with this data to harm people (especially those under their own jurisdictions). ByteDance isn't the problem, the CCP controlling it is.
  - mrtweetyhack 4y ago
    [dead]
- bioemerl 4y ago
  We should do both. This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handled as soon as possible. I totally support broad regulation of privacy law. TikTok is a much deeper concern. I don't like seeing a good cause used to distract from another good cause.
  - shrewduser 4y ago
    personally despite all that, it seems weird that western social network / tech companies aren't able to operate in china but the reverse is fine.
    - paiute 4y ago
      same with land ownership.
    - renonn 4y ago
kranke155 4y ago
Yeah. Ban TikTok, have an American company make a clone. Why is this insanity allowed ? China doesn’t allow Western social networks. Why do we allow our strategic enemy to have software on our phones? End this madness. Stop the sale of Chinese tech in the West, period. It’s all backdoored. (if you think they are interested in “co-living” go talk to the Kremlin on how that went. China is bidding its time but their intention is to end US dominance. They tell us this and they release papers on how they intend to do it. If you think that’s ok, great. I don’t see how a democratic rule of law country, flaws as it may have, being replaced by a brutal dictatorship, is a good option).
- ironSkillet 4y ago
  Agreed...I don't understand why this isn't an obvious thing all of congress would get behind. Change the law if necessary.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Because the statutory (not to mention constitutional) implications are staggering: what about our government's structure do you think gives it the authority to outright ban social media companies? Do you want it to have that power, or do you just want to government to casuistically ban the things you think should be banned? Note: this is entirely independent from whether TikTok is bad, which I'm more confident than not it is. But contorting our already contorted national security laws around it is not a tenable solution.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      “Do you want it to have that power” What an odd question. The government bans things all the time - can you go and buy unpasteurized milk right now? Or walk into a weapons store and buy brass knuckles? But heaven forbid, we’re abandoning our principles if we ban a data collection platform owned and operated by a genocidal undemocratic government.
      - deleted 4y ago
bigmattystyles 4y ago
Were the journalists foolish enough to install the app (not victim blaming but come on) or does the TikTok app scan for other wifi signatures in the vicinity and that’s how they correlated the locations?
- jimbob45 4y ago
  I was wondering this myself. Tiktok surely needs location data permitted to track, no? I'm sure there are some heuristics it can use, perhaps pinging servers or image matching pictures but surely this could all be solved by putting TikTok in a container with specifically limited permissions.
  - blessedwhiskers 4y ago
    Images probably have location data in the EXIF as well that can be used for this. If notifications cause background data fetch from their servers that could also probably leak IP address.
- joenathanone 4y ago
  There are multiple data points that can be used and/or correlated to determine location, including IP address, if permissions are enabled, nearby Bluetooth devices, nearby WiFi MAC addresses, connected cell tower, and of course GPS. Also they don't even need to be installed on the journalist's device, but their child/spouse/coworker/close friends would also do.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > Were the journalists foolish enough to install the app Foolish doesn't describe it, if they knew they were taking a calculated risk. Suppose they knew there was a risk the app could be used to track them, and maybe even a risk that tracking data could be used to assassinate them. But if TikTok tracked them with the app, that could also become part of their story against TikTok and thus advance their journalistic career. Fortune favors the bold.
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  Of course we should blame the victims here. They are supposed to know what to do in a hostile world, if they don't they are not good journalists. It is like staying that a company that got hacked because it did not put in place basic security gets a free pass because Russians/Chinese/NKs are bad. If the journalists were targeted by a sophisticated back I would be completely sympathetic. Here they were simply careless.
rvz 4y ago
Like I said before, TikTok must be fined in the billions for abusing the privacy of its users. This is not the first time that they have done this but now it is clear that they have admitted this. They have been caught once [0] and have been caught again this year [1] and lied about accessing the sensitive data of its own users [2], [3], [4] and admitted it here. Clearly the fines in [0] and [1] are extremely low and the fine must increase in the billions since these are repeated privacy violations and haven't learned anything from it. There is no excuse for billion dollar fines for TikTok. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/technology/tiktok-kids-privacy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/technology/tiktok-kids-pr... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/technology/tiktok-children-privacy-fine-uk.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/technology/tiktok-childre... [2] https://futurism.com/tiktok-spy-locations-specific-americans https://futurism.com/tiktok-spy-locations-specific-americans [3] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-... [4] https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-permission-to-collect-biometric-data-on-u-s-users-including-faceprints-and-voiceprints/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-pe...
system2 4y ago
[flagged]
- Bud 4y ago
  Let's not fool ourselves. US companies have been doing the same thing, and they will continue to.
  - system2 4y ago
    At least we can punish American companies if they do something shady.
    - Bud 4y ago
      Can we? That seems to very much depend on who is in power and who has benefitted from the shadiness in question.
    - ProAm 4y ago
      I think Ed Snowden proved to us this is not true. Room 614a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        That was revealed several years before Snowden's defection.
        lmm 4y ago
        And yet nothing was done about it.
        LarryMullins 4y ago
        Nor since. ProAm clarified that these were intended as two separate examples, so fair enough. It just rubs me the wrong way when people seem to give credit to Snowden for revealing things which were already known.
Alifatisk 4y ago
Finally, this proved my paranoia to be true.
lloydatkinson 4y ago
Where are the people now who were saying in previous threads things like "tick tock is safe, there is no way they abuse their users, invade privacy, or log devices on the users local wifi"?
- simmerup 4y ago
  They're busy shifting the goal posts
  - lloydatkinson 4y ago
    Sounds about right, including downvoting my comment.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Who was saying that? I feel like I've read a lot of HN threads on TikTok, and don't feel like I've ever seen anyone here say that, or no visible comments that weren't grayed out. People defending TikTok are generally questioning the risk of this data being weaponized by the CCP and whether it's even much of a weapon and whether that's worth it to ban them over. Not over whether TikTok voluntarily follows some privacy guidelines -- on that it's generally assumed they're either already vacuuming up all they can, or could turn that on at any time.
  - SoylentYellow 4y ago
    The pro-CCP crowd all over Reddit has been saying it for years. The typical arguments are that there is zero evidence and the US is being anti-competitive and discriminatory.
    - snehk 4y ago
      Both things can be true and it doesn't have anything to do with being pro-anything. The US government has a very long history of simply lying about things when it fits their goals so independently verifiable evidence is what's needed. The German government is still waiting for the promised proof about Huawei backdoors, by the way. This was promised when Trump was president. The US didn't produce any proof whatsoever and leaks even showed that the NSA couldn't find anything even after gaining access to Huawei's systems. The UK also said that the US never produced any evidence for any of the claims. Now it might still be true that there's things going on but there's a huge difference between saying "We don't have proof but we obviously cannot be sure" and claiming to have proof.
jmyeet 4y ago
Whatever complaints people have about how deep the tendrils of the US government have infiltrated into US companies, there is at least some separation and the rule of law. Yes, the government can get warrants for pen registers, issue NSLs and the like but there's still a process for that. This simply isn't true for the Chinese government and Chinese companies. But the other issue, which is both more palatable and more general, is one of reciprocity. China deliberately restricts Western companies from their market. A key component of trade is reciprocal market access.
- dragonelite 4y ago
  Come on man don't be so naive.
- lmm 4y ago
  > Yes, the government can get warrants for pen registers, issue NSLs and the like but there's still a process for that. > This simply isn't true for the Chinese government and Chinese companies. Huh? Do you think the Chinese intelligence services don't have to go through processes and approvals before grabbing user data? It's exactly the same thing - sure it's a secret court that rubber-stamps every request put in front of it, but that's no different from how NSLs work.
  - SoylentYellow 4y ago
    There is no requirement under the Chinese National Intelligence Law for intelligence agencies to go through courts for access. There is no due process for those affected. That law also compels companies and citizens to actively assist intelligence agencies.
    - lmm 4y ago
      > There is no requirement under the Chinese National Intelligence Law for intelligence agencies to go through courts for access. Maybe our translations don't call it a court, but there will be processes. In practice, what does the FISA "court" guarantee that the Chinese intelligence service bureaucracy does not? > There is no due process for those affected. Much the same as the US, right? The courts have ruled that people don't have standing to challenge the NSA's large-scale surveillance programmes, the warrants are granted by secret courts, the usual rights of appeal don't extend to those courts. > That law also compels companies and citizens to actively assist intelligence agencies. Which is much the same as the National Security Letter system, no?
nonrandomstring 4y ago
> "the misconduct of a few individuals" Always is. Bad apples. Rogue actors. Acting alone. Examples made. Lessons learned. Public assured. Throw the low rank scapegoats under a bus. And keep praying we're as stupid as you make yourself look.
Sebguer 4y ago
How is this different from Uber's god view?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Patrol8394 4y ago
And yet people don't care and keep using it. It shows exactly why you can't trust common sense and people to do the right thing.
sschueller 4y ago
We need a law to generally make this illegal. Uber did the same thing and Tesla hired PIs to do it.
- lmm 4y ago
  Laws are meaningless without enforcement, and good luck getting US law enforcement to enforce laws that they themselves are breaking routinely. We need a whole culture shift in government if we're going to have any hope of fixing this.
  - varenc 4y ago
    I generally agree, but that's no reason why we shouldn't push for a law banning use of private data like this now. It seems like a first step towards that culture shift we want. And even if enforcement of this new law is lacking, I bet in the TikTok situation the US gov we be happy to enforce it.
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      So you want Congress to make laws that they actively abuse themselves?
    - lmm 4y ago
      Selective enforcement and laws that are designed not to be enforced degrade the very rule of law and rules-based order that we're supposedly trying to protect here.
  - humanistbot 4y ago
    US states can take action, and California is. The new CPRA that takes effect Jan 1 2023 establishes a state funded agency to enforce the laws that have effectively only been able to be enforced by civil lawsuits by the people whose privacy is violated.
- willio58 4y ago
  100% agree. We shouldn't just stop one company from doing this.
sirsinsalot 4y ago
No worse than what the US and UK (and other FVEY) have done for years. Those in glass houses ...
notwokeno 4y ago
Why are journalists running TikTok?
- fn-mote 4y ago
  Guesses: 1. The same reason they're playing Clash Royale... down time, filling the wait. Do you think they were on their employer-provided phone? Do you think they even have an employer-provided phone? 2. Maybe they also have a social media presence. That would be a different issue, and actually easier to address by the employer.
robswc 4y ago
I truly wish Trump would have been able to actually ban TikTok (or at least force a sale). The recent twitter files show that the bond between Government and social media companies is a little too close... but it would be foolish to suggest that the lesser of the two evils here is China. It is actually insane that we let China do whatever they want here while US companies are effectively prevented from gaining a foothold in China.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Yeah it was a shame this was blocked.
- snehk 4y ago
  > It is actually insane that we let China do whatever they want here while US companies are effectively prevented from gaining a foothold in China. I wish people, at least of this site, would stop with this argument. US and European companies in China simply have to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to. It's admirable that they then go ahead and just don't do business there but they're not being prevented from operating there under the same rules as any Chinese company. A German car company cannot sell cars in the US without backup cameras even though that's completely fine in Germany. If someone from Iran wants to do business in the US, it's not legal to discriminate based on religion even though that might be fine in Iran. Maybe it's time to overhaul the laws altogether. Just make the data collection itself illegal for everyone and be done with it. Then companies from all around the globe can decide whether they want to operate in a market or not and completely banning companies that openly don't follow the law is not really controversial. If the ban happens because they're collecting data and the collection itself is illegal, I'm all for it. Banning companies on the basis that they're doing the exact same thing as everyone else simply because they're from another nation is problematic.
  - robswc 4y ago
    > simply have to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to I don’t think it’s simple at all. That might be how it works on paper but I’ll ask you this. Do you think a US or European equivalent would ever be allowed to gain a comparable market share? Or would they find many convenient barriers while a Chinese clone, backed by the government, was being built? I just don’t see a world where Chinese and US companies are on equal footing in the eyes of the CCP as long as they just “simply follow the rules.”
weezin 4y ago
There are tons of valid criticism for the US intelligence community, but when it isn't agenda driven they can be right about a lot of things, for example knowing that Russia was preparing to invade Ukraine.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  If you are talking about the very latest invasion of Feb. 2022 and not the start of the war in 2014, then they don't have much credit there, since not only various third parties have been pointing this out for months, the Russians literally told them (in January IIRC ?)
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
A bit of meta commentary but I’ve noticed in recent years a phenomenon where people will adamantly defend something because they associate attacking it with their political opponents. You see this very clearly in the conservative response to US support of Ukraine. You’d expect to see more conservative support for simultaneously defending a free people while also destroying a primary adversary for pennies on the dollar but instead you see a lot of skepticism because the Democrats are all over supporting it. I also see a similar phenomenon with TikTok, where I think some people defend it principally because banning TikTok was “a Trump thing” and more generally China-hawkishness is viewed as “a Republican thing”.
- jrumbut 4y ago
  In the early stages of both discussions that happened, but recently the party lines have been blurring a bit (especially on Ukraine). We'll see how long it lasts but it wouldn't be the first time the presence of an external enemy eased internal tensions.
- remarkEon 4y ago
  Perhaps, but these two things are very very different, and while I think your observation is apt it only exists at the margins (i.e. on twitter). You can steelman an argument for supporting Ukraine in their war that goes something like "bleeding Russia dry means they won't be able to enter into the Pacific as a co-belligerent with China in a potential WWIII scenario". Similarly, you can steelman an argument for banning TikTok that goes something like "this algorithm can nudge people into believing certain things in a measurable way, and it's bad that an adversary (PLA) has the ability to do this in our country, so we should stop that". GOP skepticism of support of Ukraine is linked to that aforementioned goal, which we've probably achieved at this point. Why continue to print money and weapons and send them to a place 99% of America couldn't find on a map without googling, especially when this adversary has been shown to be a paper tiger? Democratic skepticism of the TikTok calamity is, yes, linked to Trump Syndrome to a certain extent, but I think its also an adherence to boilerplate neoliberalism where you let companies compete in a globalized way, and banning TikTok because its Chinese has a tinge of racism (not me saying that, I'm outlining why the Democrats would be skeptical of a ban).
danrocks 4y ago
I often wonder what high-level American executives that work at these Chinese companies feel like, specially when news like this comes to life. Do they feel like they're just doing their job? Are they afraid of getting arrested? Do they think that the massive comp packages they get is worth the risk? Lots of cognitive dissonance going on, I would bet.
- 93po 4y ago
  They're likely very much bought into the CCP and think that their work that furthers the interests of the CCP, including the tracking of potential dissidents to their political party, is fine. You don't see American tech workers batting an eye at tracking data being used to target who was at the Jan 6 protests, and frankly I don't think they'd care if it was also used against Alex Jones if he was there in a journalistic capacity.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    This story has nothing to do with the CCP. In the US now, every story that has anything to do with China is reduced to "the CCP." This is a story about a tech company abusing its access to user data to try to track down which of its employees were talking to journalists. This could be a story about a Chinese company, an American company, or a company from pretty much any country.
    - 93po 4y ago
      High level executives at ByteDance are members of the CCP and closely work with the CCP. Journalists are reporting on ByteDance because of allegations that are implied in this quote from the article: “TikTok has never been used to ‘target’ any members of the U.S. government, activists, public figures or journalists,” The ongoing controversy with TikTok has always been about the concern of the government of China using TikTok data and manipulation of its content in clandestine ways. It all goes back to CCP.
      - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
vanadium1st 4y ago
I was really pro open internet. I remember the old internet and feel nostalgia about it that probably won't ever completely fade. I am Ukrainian, and when some years ago my government banned the most popular social network at our country - Russian-made VK, I felt strange about it. I kind of understood some of the security concerns, but didn't feel like they were enough to turn off my open internet fantasies and free-speech absolutism. Now I totally get it and am happy that it happened sooner that later. Turns out that the security concern was as real as it gets. Russia gets info from VK to jail hundreds of people, and at least they one less weapon to use against Ukrainians. And I have to admit that I've used VK and probably wouldn't stop doing it if my government didn't ban it. Now I am kind of hoping that they will do the same with TikTok. With all of this experience I still have no strength to quit it by myself.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  > I still have no strength to quit it by myself. This sounds like addiction? Just delete the app from your phone and move on? You'd be surprised by perfectly fine life goes on without Twitter / Facebook / TikTok / Instagram.
  - canadaduane 4y ago
    "addiction" and "just ___" are kind of mutually opposing forces. It can be difficult to understand addiction from the outside, as the solution seems obvious, but the internal world is not straight forward to navigate.
    - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
      If the only way the poster is going to cure their social media addiction is through government intervention, I would suggest finding alternative means of addressing the issue.
      - hakre 4y ago
        Yes, this calling for the strong man looks really desperate and dangerous.
tonymet 4y ago
After seeing twitterfiles I'm less convinced the US authorities are interested in preserving privacy and instead believe they have nefarious agendas to make sure that American users remain engaged in platforms where they retain surveillance and censorship abilities.
walrus01 4y ago
As a reminder for everyone, as a Chinese domestic corporation providing Internet-based services/telecom services, Bytedance is legally obligated to provide active engineering cooperation for database-replication and a pipeline into its internal systems to the Ministry of State Security (MSS). This is not some obscure conspiracy theory but well documented mainland China domestic law.
hgsgm 4y ago
[dead]
mikestaub 4y ago
Maybe the future is everyone using TOR, BTC, and ZKproof smart contracts? The first 30 years of the internet have proved us all to be very naive when it comes to the power of state coercion.
spritefs 4y ago
The legality of this kind of tracking is one thing. What I think is most egregious about this though is that ByteDance said this before: > TikTok has never been used to ‘target’ any members of the U.S. government, activists, public figures or journalists, This sort of outright lying is bound to piss off DC. Will it lead to TikTok getting banned? Idk, depends on their lobbying budget
killab33z 4y ago
No sh*t! No surprise here at all. Stop using big tech, start controlling your data, and then these corporate gloryholes (which you're clearly on the wrong side of) will stop existing...
- sircastor 4y ago
  I feel like this is what comes from someone who doesn’t have anything to lose by abandoning these platforms. Yes, you can stop using big tech platforms and controlling your data, what’s the reality of doing that? Who are you making videos for and whose videos are you seeing? Can you get all of your friends and family to use Mastodon? Do they want to? How about sharing pictures of your kids with your parents? None of the big tech solutions are good, but they are where people are.
tsawaybvg 4y ago
You Americans have no idea what kinda monster the west and western companies created. China is gonna eat the west alive. Sooner you guys wake up the better
ngcc_hk 4y ago
Frankly it is not what they can do but the USA side cannot do in China. If the world is all under china it is “fine”. But given it is still not or not yet, let it like this is just give up and be slaved. Good luck America, you really need it.
tinus_hn 4y ago
Why do people allow an app like TikTok to access their location? Is it obligatory?
Caitlynbranson 4y ago
[dead]
brianmcgee 4y ago
https://archive.vn/1jRVq https://archive.vn/1jRVq
gchokov 4y ago
When is Apple going to ban this app from the store?
blackbear_ 4y ago
> General counsel Erich Andersen wrote to staff that a “misguided plan was developed and carried out by a few individuals within the Internal Audit department this past summer”, adding that those involved “misused their authority to obtain access to TikTok user data” in violation of its code of conduct. Ah yes, straight from the playbook: management gets caught being mischievous and throws a few underlings under the bus to save their own asses.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  yeah you can bet those underlings were workign for someone else.
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  In which case, there would be evidence of that. Prosecutors are notorious for wanting the biggest fish out there. While their might be bigger players that are getting away with this, it's also not unreasonable to think that it happened as the evidence shows. Basically, rather than make stuff up, I'd rather go with what the evidence shows and what can be proven. It's easy to hide in a big company, and it's at a bigger company where it's a lot easier to abuse your position without anyone else, including higher ups, knowing.
  - Zpalmtree 4y ago
    they just decided to track journalists for fun with no-one telling them to? seems pretty unlikely to me.
    - bfgoodrich 4y ago
      [dead]
    - jasonlotito 4y ago
      > they just decided to track journalists for fun with no-one telling them to? That's not what I suggested in the slightest. Stop lying. > seems pretty unlikely to me. Sure, because I imagine they didn't just do it for fun. But that doesn't mean a more senior person has to be involved. Back it up with evidence. Your feelings are worthless. I'm right, and you are wrong.
jamesredd 4y ago
[flagged]
- Retric 4y ago
  Journalists are employees, if you dislike the amount of investigation being done look at the companies involved.
- likeafox 4y ago
  I would hardly call FT state propaganda in any circumstance. To me true state propaganda is where the state has editorial authority over the dissemination of stories - in the west that still relatively rare. But absolutely independent of whether FT are propaganda - it does not matter in any way to this story whether they are a 'protected class'. The outrage is that TikTok employees abused their user data in the pursuit of an agenda against targeted individuals.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  What are you accusing them of exactly? Lying? Or truthful reporting that happens to align with the interests of some American politicians?
stjohnswarts 4y ago
We really really need to shut this down as a national security issue. If they took it off Apple and Google Play stores it would reduce usage immediately by at least 80-90% along with having apple/android send out blocks like they can for malware (which it is). It's hard to believe Biden didn't continue Trump's attempt to shut it down.
- jibe 4y ago
  >Trump's attempt to shut it down. Believe it or not, Trump’s policy was more nuanced than what are getting now. They were in the process of forcing a sale of the company to a US owner.
  - tomComb 4y ago
    I think you mean that you saw Trump's solution as more effective. It wasn't more nuanced. Trump's solution involved a one off payoff for a supporter (Oracle), whereas the current admin is at least trying to develop a policy framework and solve the problem with less corruption and arbitrary use of power. The latter is much more work but - to bring it back to the issue - is more nuanced.
    - kneebonian 4y ago
      I can't think of a faster way to kill the app or any app than to sell it to Oracle. Seriously give it to Oracle and 20 minutes. When you have to spend 3 minutes waiting for the next TikTok to load people will find alternatives real quick.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  What about the First Amendment?
  - master-lincoln 4y ago
    What about it? Does it specify that all Chinese mobile apps need to be distributed by the major mobile companies? I don't see how it's related. Please elaborate.
Hitton 4y ago
So if I'm reading this right, it was wrong only because they were spying on Americans. Spying on others is apparently still ok.
- Veen 4y ago
  You're not reading it right. The FT journalist in this story is not American. But, as a general rule, nations seek to protect their own citizens.
  - Hitton 4y ago
    They wrote that other users connected to her were also targeted, which apparently included Americans too. Otherwise why would they do this: >ByteDance has since restructured its internal audit team and removed access to US data from that department. I read it as their internal audit team still having access to userdata data from other regions.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - hello_friendos 4y ago
    [dead]
- trasz3 4y ago
  Twitter hired private spooks to track journalists and Elon is still living off government grants, so yeah, obviously.
roenxi 4y ago
One of the more unexpected parts of the Twitter files (part 7, in fact) is it reveals some well developed linkages between the US intelligence services and media companies. If the US is blurring the corporate-government boundaries, the Chinese are certainly much more aggressive in their activities. And all these agencies run extra-legal kidnapping operations. I'm rare in that although I don't like it corporate spying doesn't really scare me. Corporations can't do very much without breaking the law. My concern is that this information is then passed on to the people who are empowered to come and drag me out of my home. Some of whom aren't even subject to my legal system. It makes more extreme measures like the GDPR seem insufficient.
- thefounder 4y ago
  After wikileaks/Snowden this is just not news anymore. I really fail to see what's new. What am I missing?
  - jasonlotito 4y ago
    People learning about this for the first time. Snowden/wikileaks weren't even the first ones to share this. It's been well known for decades. It's not a secret. It's well known and well established in many industries. And why does this happen? Because money. Every single tech darling plays along. Chances are, unless you knew for a fact you weren't participating in this, you were at some level.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      Prior to Snowden those people were derided as part of the paranoid tinfoil hat crowd. The only thing known was some vague discussion of Carnivore and Tempest.
      - jasonlotito 4y ago
        No, they weren't. It was well known. Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it wasn't well known.
bad-engineers 4y ago
Surprised they paywalled this one. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! 'Yourself' as both an industry and a specific business.
alarmingfox 4y ago
Non-paywall link: https://archive.vn/1jRVq https://archive.vn/1jRVq
sergiotapia 4y ago
We should ban this app from the United States. What dirt will China have on our politicians 30 years from now?
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  How do you propose we "ban" it from the United States? Should it be illegal for me to run TikTok on any of my devices? Do you want the US government to compel Apple and Google to delist TikTok from their app stores? Before answering, consider carefully whether this is a precedent you want to set. Some in government may want to do the same for Twitter.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    Read the proposed ANTI-SOCIAL CCP Act. That’s how.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > How do you propose we "ban" it from the United States? Sanction it. > some in government may want to do the same for Twitter Difficult to do this with an American, or even allied, country.
    - TechBro8615 4y ago
      The result of this will be millions of American teen girls learning how to "sideload" apps onto their device. Of course, a significant percentage of them will end up sideloading malware onto their device at the same time. The funny aspect to me is that the senators pushing to "ban TikTok" are the same senators pushing for an "open App Store" bill. But I don't see how you can have it both ways. Sure you can sanction TikTok. Are you going to jail every middle schooler who "does business" with them by downloading the app from unofficial sources? Or perhaps you want to force ISPs to drop connections to TikTok servers?
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > funny aspect to me is that the senators pushing to "ban TikTok" are the same senators pushing for an "open App Store" bill They're both about open markets. China is not only a closed market, it's threatening our open-market allies. > going to jail every middle schooler who "does business" with them by downloading the app from unofficial sources? If they download the app from unofficial sources and then send it money, somehow, or get money from it, somehow, yes, they'd be treated like someone trading with the Taliban. If they're just using the software, no, that's like using open-source code written by an Iranian.
zkid18 4y ago
Politics apart, can anyone explain how access from China was possible if all PII data is under Oracle control?

758 points by alphabetting 4y ago

"The Chinese are stealing your data and spying on you! This is deeply immoral and unprecedentedly bad!" - The Americans Stealing Your Data and Spying On You

alphabetting 4y ago

Tdlr: Tiktok's Chinese parent company used Tiktok user data to track US journalists who uncovered they were accessing US user data in China.

choppaface 4y ago
Related: the story is about Forbes journalists. And Forbes journalists include fraudsters: https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/woman-accused-of-4-5-billion-crypto-laundering-scheme-also-wrote-a-bunch-of-stuff-for-forbes-and-inc/ https://www.niemanlab.org/reading/woman-accused-of-4-5-billi...
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  Not related unless you can specifically tie the two together. Otherwise you are engaging in ad hominem attacks.

aaron695 4y ago

[dead]

ironyman 4y ago

https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-data-trump-ban https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-d... Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Mark Warner argues that even if there is nothing wrong with Tiktok it ought to be banned because it gives China a crucial edge in the development of AI tools that American companies don't have. China is able to freely access Western markets but not the other way around. > Finally, there’s the fear that China will be able to use TikTok’s data to power its AI innovations. That’s an advantage the US won’t have because its social media apps are banned in China and because there aren’t laws that would compel social media companies to hand over data just because the government wants it. > “They are aggregating literally billions and billions of images of not just Americans but people from around the world who are using TikTok,” Warner said. “That gives them so much more data to help them create tools that can be utilized in the AI world.”

thomasahle 4y ago
> That’s an advantage the US won’t have because [its social media apps are banned in China and] because there aren’t laws that would compel social media companies to hand over data just because the government wants it. Wait, why would it be an advantage for creation of AI in the US if social media companies (or company) could be more easily compelled to give our data to the government? Given that it's the social media company we are expecting to produce the AI anyway.
- wyldberry 4y ago
  Because Bytedance and similar orgs are merged with the CCP. So they pass data up the chain, and the CCP can make new rules, investments, and directives with it. This allows the CCP to accelerate with this data in ways that the US cannot. So CCP gets full access to American residents, without reciprocating US social media actions within it, and then compels Bytedance to give it access.
  - guhidalg 4y ago
    Can you give me a real example of this data? I don’t doubt it happens, I just want an example to cite.

dang 4y ago

Related: ByteDance planned to use TikTok to surveil specific American citizens - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 - Oct 2022 (208 comments) Leaked Audio from TikTok Meetings – US User Data Repeatedly Accessed from China - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31781146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31781146 - June 2022 (12 comments)

stmw 4y ago
Thank you for adding excellent context, as you usually do, dang. It's strange how so many discussions on this topic seem to proceed with no prior inputs, it's puzzling.

zug_zug 4y ago

I feel like this is talking out of both sides of the mouth. If the issue is that corporations aren't following data privacy laws, build the privacy into the tool at the software/ecosystem level (e.g make signup without true name / phone number / IMEI a legal requirement, signup without location sharing a legal requirement) then it'll be impossible to track journalists for both Chinese and American companies.

Xeoncross 4y ago
Forget corporations, I'm concerned about what the governments are doing with this data to harm people (especially those under their own jurisdictions). ByteDance isn't the problem, the CCP controlling it is.
- mrtweetyhack 4y ago
  [dead]
bioemerl 4y ago
We should do both. This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handled as soon as possible. I totally support broad regulation of privacy law. TikTok is a much deeper concern. I don't like seeing a good cause used to distract from another good cause.
- shrewduser 4y ago
  personally despite all that, it seems weird that western social network / tech companies aren't able to operate in china but the reverse is fine.
  - paiute 4y ago
    same with land ownership.
  - renonn 4y ago

kranke155 4y ago

Yeah. Ban TikTok, have an American company make a clone. Why is this insanity allowed ? China doesn’t allow Western social networks. Why do we allow our strategic enemy to have software on our phones? End this madness. Stop the sale of Chinese tech in the West, period. It’s all backdoored. (if you think they are interested in “co-living” go talk to the Kremlin on how that went. China is bidding its time but their intention is to end US dominance. They tell us this and they release papers on how they intend to do it. If you think that’s ok, great. I don’t see how a democratic rule of law country, flaws as it may have, being replaced by a brutal dictatorship, is a good option).

ironSkillet 4y ago
Agreed...I don't understand why this isn't an obvious thing all of congress would get behind. Change the law if necessary.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Because the statutory (not to mention constitutional) implications are staggering: what about our government's structure do you think gives it the authority to outright ban social media companies? Do you want it to have that power, or do you just want to government to casuistically ban the things you think should be banned? Note: this is entirely independent from whether TikTok is bad, which I'm more confident than not it is. But contorting our already contorted national security laws around it is not a tenable solution.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    “Do you want it to have that power” What an odd question. The government bans things all the time - can you go and buy unpasteurized milk right now? Or walk into a weapons store and buy brass knuckles? But heaven forbid, we’re abandoning our principles if we ban a data collection platform owned and operated by a genocidal undemocratic government.
    - deleted 4y ago

bigmattystyles 4y ago

Were the journalists foolish enough to install the app (not victim blaming but come on) or does the TikTok app scan for other wifi signatures in the vicinity and that’s how they correlated the locations?

jimbob45 4y ago
I was wondering this myself. Tiktok surely needs location data permitted to track, no? I'm sure there are some heuristics it can use, perhaps pinging servers or image matching pictures but surely this could all be solved by putting TikTok in a container with specifically limited permissions.
- blessedwhiskers 4y ago
  Images probably have location data in the EXIF as well that can be used for this. If notifications cause background data fetch from their servers that could also probably leak IP address.
joenathanone 4y ago
There are multiple data points that can be used and/or correlated to determine location, including IP address, if permissions are enabled, nearby Bluetooth devices, nearby WiFi MAC addresses, connected cell tower, and of course GPS. Also they don't even need to be installed on the journalist's device, but their child/spouse/coworker/close friends would also do.
LarryMullins 4y ago
> Were the journalists foolish enough to install the app Foolish doesn't describe it, if they knew they were taking a calculated risk. Suppose they knew there was a risk the app could be used to track them, and maybe even a risk that tracking data could be used to assassinate them. But if TikTok tracked them with the app, that could also become part of their story against TikTok and thus advance their journalistic career. Fortune favors the bold.
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
Of course we should blame the victims here. They are supposed to know what to do in a hostile world, if they don't they are not good journalists. It is like staying that a company that got hacked because it did not put in place basic security gets a free pass because Russians/Chinese/NKs are bad. If the journalists were targeted by a sophisticated back I would be completely sympathetic. Here they were simply careless.

rvz 4y ago

Like I said before, TikTok must be fined in the billions for abusing the privacy of its users. This is not the first time that they have done this but now it is clear that they have admitted this. They have been caught once [0] and have been caught again this year [1] and lied about accessing the sensitive data of its own users [2], [3], [4] and admitted it here. Clearly the fines in [0] and [1] are extremely low and the fine must increase in the billions since these are repeated privacy violations and haven't learned anything from it. There is no excuse for billion dollar fines for TikTok. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/technology/tiktok-kids-privacy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/technology/tiktok-kids-pr... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/technology/tiktok-children-privacy-fine-uk.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/technology/tiktok-childre... [2] https://futurism.com/tiktok-spy-locations-specific-americans https://futurism.com/tiktok-spy-locations-specific-americans [3] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-... [4] https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-permission-to-collect-biometric-data-on-u-s-users-including-faceprints-and-voiceprints/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-pe...

system2 4y ago

[flagged]

Bud 4y ago
Let's not fool ourselves. US companies have been doing the same thing, and they will continue to.
- system2 4y ago
  At least we can punish American companies if they do something shady.
  - Bud 4y ago
    Can we? That seems to very much depend on who is in power and who has benefitted from the shadiness in question.
  - ProAm 4y ago
    I think Ed Snowden proved to us this is not true. Room 614a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      That was revealed several years before Snowden's defection.
      - lmm 4y ago
        And yet nothing was done about it.
        LarryMullins 4y ago
        Nor since. ProAm clarified that these were intended as two separate examples, so fair enough. It just rubs me the wrong way when people seem to give credit to Snowden for revealing things which were already known.

Alifatisk 4y ago

Finally, this proved my paranoia to be true.

lloydatkinson 4y ago

Where are the people now who were saying in previous threads things like "tick tock is safe, there is no way they abuse their users, invade privacy, or log devices on the users local wifi"?

simmerup 4y ago
They're busy shifting the goal posts
- lloydatkinson 4y ago
  Sounds about right, including downvoting my comment.
crazygringo 4y ago
Who was saying that? I feel like I've read a lot of HN threads on TikTok, and don't feel like I've ever seen anyone here say that, or no visible comments that weren't grayed out. People defending TikTok are generally questioning the risk of this data being weaponized by the CCP and whether it's even much of a weapon and whether that's worth it to ban them over. Not over whether TikTok voluntarily follows some privacy guidelines -- on that it's generally assumed they're either already vacuuming up all they can, or could turn that on at any time.
- SoylentYellow 4y ago
  The pro-CCP crowd all over Reddit has been saying it for years. The typical arguments are that there is zero evidence and the US is being anti-competitive and discriminatory.
  - snehk 4y ago
    Both things can be true and it doesn't have anything to do with being pro-anything. The US government has a very long history of simply lying about things when it fits their goals so independently verifiable evidence is what's needed. The German government is still waiting for the promised proof about Huawei backdoors, by the way. This was promised when Trump was president. The US didn't produce any proof whatsoever and leaks even showed that the NSA couldn't find anything even after gaining access to Huawei's systems. The UK also said that the US never produced any evidence for any of the claims. Now it might still be true that there's things going on but there's a huge difference between saying "We don't have proof but we obviously cannot be sure" and claiming to have proof.

jmyeet 4y ago

Whatever complaints people have about how deep the tendrils of the US government have infiltrated into US companies, there is at least some separation and the rule of law. Yes, the government can get warrants for pen registers, issue NSLs and the like but there's still a process for that. This simply isn't true for the Chinese government and Chinese companies. But the other issue, which is both more palatable and more general, is one of reciprocity. China deliberately restricts Western companies from their market. A key component of trade is reciprocal market access.

dragonelite 4y ago
Come on man don't be so naive.
lmm 4y ago
> Yes, the government can get warrants for pen registers, issue NSLs and the like but there's still a process for that. > This simply isn't true for the Chinese government and Chinese companies. Huh? Do you think the Chinese intelligence services don't have to go through processes and approvals before grabbing user data? It's exactly the same thing - sure it's a secret court that rubber-stamps every request put in front of it, but that's no different from how NSLs work.
- SoylentYellow 4y ago
  There is no requirement under the Chinese National Intelligence Law for intelligence agencies to go through courts for access. There is no due process for those affected. That law also compels companies and citizens to actively assist intelligence agencies.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > There is no requirement under the Chinese National Intelligence Law for intelligence agencies to go through courts for access. Maybe our translations don't call it a court, but there will be processes. In practice, what does the FISA "court" guarantee that the Chinese intelligence service bureaucracy does not? > There is no due process for those affected. Much the same as the US, right? The courts have ruled that people don't have standing to challenge the NSA's large-scale surveillance programmes, the warrants are granted by secret courts, the usual rights of appeal don't extend to those courts. > That law also compels companies and citizens to actively assist intelligence agencies. Which is much the same as the National Security Letter system, no?

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> "the misconduct of a few individuals" Always is. Bad apples. Rogue actors. Acting alone. Examples made. Lessons learned. Public assured. Throw the low rank scapegoats under a bus. And keep praying we're as stupid as you make yourself look.

Sebguer 4y ago

How is this different from Uber's god view?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Patrol8394 4y ago

And yet people don't care and keep using it. It shows exactly why you can't trust common sense and people to do the right thing.

sschueller 4y ago

We need a law to generally make this illegal. Uber did the same thing and Tesla hired PIs to do it.

lmm 4y ago
Laws are meaningless without enforcement, and good luck getting US law enforcement to enforce laws that they themselves are breaking routinely. We need a whole culture shift in government if we're going to have any hope of fixing this.
- varenc 4y ago
  I generally agree, but that's no reason why we shouldn't push for a law banning use of private data like this now. It seems like a first step towards that culture shift we want. And even if enforcement of this new law is lacking, I bet in the TikTok situation the US gov we be happy to enforce it.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    So you want Congress to make laws that they actively abuse themselves?
  - lmm 4y ago
    Selective enforcement and laws that are designed not to be enforced degrade the very rule of law and rules-based order that we're supposedly trying to protect here.
- humanistbot 4y ago
  US states can take action, and California is. The new CPRA that takes effect Jan 1 2023 establishes a state funded agency to enforce the laws that have effectively only been able to be enforced by civil lawsuits by the people whose privacy is violated.
willio58 4y ago
100% agree. We shouldn't just stop one company from doing this.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

No worse than what the US and UK (and other FVEY) have done for years. Those in glass houses ...

notwokeno 4y ago

Why are journalists running TikTok?

fn-mote 4y ago
Guesses: 1. The same reason they're playing Clash Royale... down time, filling the wait. Do you think they were on their employer-provided phone? Do you think they even have an employer-provided phone? 2. Maybe they also have a social media presence. That would be a different issue, and actually easier to address by the employer.

robswc 4y ago

I truly wish Trump would have been able to actually ban TikTok (or at least force a sale). The recent twitter files show that the bond between Government and social media companies is a little too close... but it would be foolish to suggest that the lesser of the two evils here is China. It is actually insane that we let China do whatever they want here while US companies are effectively prevented from gaining a foothold in China.

nonethewiser 4y ago
Yeah it was a shame this was blocked.
snehk 4y ago
> It is actually insane that we let China do whatever they want here while US companies are effectively prevented from gaining a foothold in China. I wish people, at least of this site, would stop with this argument. US and European companies in China simply have to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to. It's admirable that they then go ahead and just don't do business there but they're not being prevented from operating there under the same rules as any Chinese company. A German car company cannot sell cars in the US without backup cameras even though that's completely fine in Germany. If someone from Iran wants to do business in the US, it's not legal to discriminate based on religion even though that might be fine in Iran. Maybe it's time to overhaul the laws altogether. Just make the data collection itself illegal for everyone and be done with it. Then companies from all around the globe can decide whether they want to operate in a market or not and completely banning companies that openly don't follow the law is not really controversial. If the ban happens because they're collecting data and the collection itself is illegal, I'm all for it. Banning companies on the basis that they're doing the exact same thing as everyone else simply because they're from another nation is problematic.
- robswc 4y ago
  > simply have to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to I don’t think it’s simple at all. That might be how it works on paper but I’ll ask you this. Do you think a US or European equivalent would ever be allowed to gain a comparable market share? Or would they find many convenient barriers while a Chinese clone, backed by the government, was being built? I just don’t see a world where Chinese and US companies are on equal footing in the eyes of the CCP as long as they just “simply follow the rules.”

weezin 4y ago

There are tons of valid criticism for the US intelligence community, but when it isn't agenda driven they can be right about a lot of things, for example knowing that Russia was preparing to invade Ukraine.

BlueTemplar 4y ago
If you are talking about the very latest invasion of Feb. 2022 and not the start of the war in 2014, then they don't have much credit there, since not only various third parties have been pointing this out for months, the Russians literally told them (in January IIRC ?)

AbrahamParangi 4y ago

A bit of meta commentary but I’ve noticed in recent years a phenomenon where people will adamantly defend something because they associate attacking it with their political opponents. You see this very clearly in the conservative response to US support of Ukraine. You’d expect to see more conservative support for simultaneously defending a free people while also destroying a primary adversary for pennies on the dollar but instead you see a lot of skepticism because the Democrats are all over supporting it. I also see a similar phenomenon with TikTok, where I think some people defend it principally because banning TikTok was “a Trump thing” and more generally China-hawkishness is viewed as “a Republican thing”.

jrumbut 4y ago
In the early stages of both discussions that happened, but recently the party lines have been blurring a bit (especially on Ukraine). We'll see how long it lasts but it wouldn't be the first time the presence of an external enemy eased internal tensions.
remarkEon 4y ago
Perhaps, but these two things are very very different, and while I think your observation is apt it only exists at the margins (i.e. on twitter). You can steelman an argument for supporting Ukraine in their war that goes something like "bleeding Russia dry means they won't be able to enter into the Pacific as a co-belligerent with China in a potential WWIII scenario". Similarly, you can steelman an argument for banning TikTok that goes something like "this algorithm can nudge people into believing certain things in a measurable way, and it's bad that an adversary (PLA) has the ability to do this in our country, so we should stop that". GOP skepticism of support of Ukraine is linked to that aforementioned goal, which we've probably achieved at this point. Why continue to print money and weapons and send them to a place 99% of America couldn't find on a map without googling, especially when this adversary has been shown to be a paper tiger? Democratic skepticism of the TikTok calamity is, yes, linked to Trump Syndrome to a certain extent, but I think its also an adherence to boilerplate neoliberalism where you let companies compete in a globalized way, and banning TikTok because its Chinese has a tinge of racism (not me saying that, I'm outlining why the Democrats would be skeptical of a ban).

danrocks 4y ago

I often wonder what high-level American executives that work at these Chinese companies feel like, specially when news like this comes to life. Do they feel like they're just doing their job? Are they afraid of getting arrested? Do they think that the massive comp packages they get is worth the risk? Lots of cognitive dissonance going on, I would bet.

93po 4y ago
They're likely very much bought into the CCP and think that their work that furthers the interests of the CCP, including the tracking of potential dissidents to their political party, is fine. You don't see American tech workers batting an eye at tracking data being used to target who was at the Jan 6 protests, and frankly I don't think they'd care if it was also used against Alex Jones if he was there in a journalistic capacity.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  This story has nothing to do with the CCP. In the US now, every story that has anything to do with China is reduced to "the CCP." This is a story about a tech company abusing its access to user data to try to track down which of its employees were talking to journalists. This could be a story about a Chinese company, an American company, or a company from pretty much any country.
  - 93po 4y ago
    High level executives at ByteDance are members of the CCP and closely work with the CCP. Journalists are reporting on ByteDance because of allegations that are implied in this quote from the article: “TikTok has never been used to ‘target’ any members of the U.S. government, activists, public figures or journalists,” The ongoing controversy with TikTok has always been about the concern of the government of China using TikTok data and manipulation of its content in clandestine ways. It all goes back to CCP.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

vanadium1st 4y ago

I was really pro open internet. I remember the old internet and feel nostalgia about it that probably won't ever completely fade. I am Ukrainian, and when some years ago my government banned the most popular social network at our country - Russian-made VK, I felt strange about it. I kind of understood some of the security concerns, but didn't feel like they were enough to turn off my open internet fantasies and free-speech absolutism. Now I totally get it and am happy that it happened sooner that later. Turns out that the security concern was as real as it gets. Russia gets info from VK to jail hundreds of people, and at least they one less weapon to use against Ukrainians. And I have to admit that I've used VK and probably wouldn't stop doing it if my government didn't ban it. Now I am kind of hoping that they will do the same with TikTok. With all of this experience I still have no strength to quit it by myself.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
> I still have no strength to quit it by myself. This sounds like addiction? Just delete the app from your phone and move on? You'd be surprised by perfectly fine life goes on without Twitter / Facebook / TikTok / Instagram.
- canadaduane 4y ago
  "addiction" and "just ___" are kind of mutually opposing forces. It can be difficult to understand addiction from the outside, as the solution seems obvious, but the internal world is not straight forward to navigate.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
    If the only way the poster is going to cure their social media addiction is through government intervention, I would suggest finding alternative means of addressing the issue.
    - hakre 4y ago
      Yes, this calling for the strong man looks really desperate and dangerous.

tonymet 4y ago

After seeing twitterfiles I'm less convinced the US authorities are interested in preserving privacy and instead believe they have nefarious agendas to make sure that American users remain engaged in platforms where they retain surveillance and censorship abilities.

walrus01 4y ago

As a reminder for everyone, as a Chinese domestic corporation providing Internet-based services/telecom services, Bytedance is legally obligated to provide active engineering cooperation for database-replication and a pipeline into its internal systems to the Ministry of State Security (MSS). This is not some obscure conspiracy theory but well documented mainland China domestic law.

hgsgm 4y ago

[dead]

mikestaub 4y ago

Maybe the future is everyone using TOR, BTC, and ZKproof smart contracts? The first 30 years of the internet have proved us all to be very naive when it comes to the power of state coercion.

spritefs 4y ago

The legality of this kind of tracking is one thing. What I think is most egregious about this though is that ByteDance said this before: > TikTok has never been used to ‘target’ any members of the U.S. government, activists, public figures or journalists, This sort of outright lying is bound to piss off DC. Will it lead to TikTok getting banned? Idk, depends on their lobbying budget

killab33z 4y ago

No sh*t! No surprise here at all. Stop using big tech, start controlling your data, and then these corporate gloryholes (which you're clearly on the wrong side of) will stop existing...

sircastor 4y ago
I feel like this is what comes from someone who doesn’t have anything to lose by abandoning these platforms. Yes, you can stop using big tech platforms and controlling your data, what’s the reality of doing that? Who are you making videos for and whose videos are you seeing? Can you get all of your friends and family to use Mastodon? Do they want to? How about sharing pictures of your kids with your parents? None of the big tech solutions are good, but they are where people are.

tsawaybvg 4y ago

You Americans have no idea what kinda monster the west and western companies created. China is gonna eat the west alive. Sooner you guys wake up the better

ngcc_hk 4y ago

Frankly it is not what they can do but the USA side cannot do in China. If the world is all under china it is “fine”. But given it is still not or not yet, let it like this is just give up and be slaved. Good luck America, you really need it.

tinus_hn 4y ago

Why do people allow an app like TikTok to access their location? Is it obligatory?

Caitlynbranson 4y ago

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brianmcgee 4y ago

https://archive.vn/1jRVq https://archive.vn/1jRVq

gchokov 4y ago

When is Apple going to ban this app from the store?

blackbear_ 4y ago

> General counsel Erich Andersen wrote to staff that a “misguided plan was developed and carried out by a few individuals within the Internal Audit department this past summer”, adding that those involved “misused their authority to obtain access to TikTok user data” in violation of its code of conduct. Ah yes, straight from the playbook: management gets caught being mischievous and throws a few underlings under the bus to save their own asses.

stjohnswarts 4y ago
yeah you can bet those underlings were workign for someone else.
jasonlotito 4y ago
In which case, there would be evidence of that. Prosecutors are notorious for wanting the biggest fish out there. While their might be bigger players that are getting away with this, it's also not unreasonable to think that it happened as the evidence shows. Basically, rather than make stuff up, I'd rather go with what the evidence shows and what can be proven. It's easy to hide in a big company, and it's at a bigger company where it's a lot easier to abuse your position without anyone else, including higher ups, knowing.
- Zpalmtree 4y ago
  they just decided to track journalists for fun with no-one telling them to? seems pretty unlikely to me.
  - bfgoodrich 4y ago
    [dead]
  - jasonlotito 4y ago
    > they just decided to track journalists for fun with no-one telling them to? That's not what I suggested in the slightest. Stop lying. > seems pretty unlikely to me. Sure, because I imagine they didn't just do it for fun. But that doesn't mean a more senior person has to be involved. Back it up with evidence. Your feelings are worthless. I'm right, and you are wrong.

jamesredd 4y ago

[flagged]

Retric 4y ago
Journalists are employees, if you dislike the amount of investigation being done look at the companies involved.
likeafox 4y ago
I would hardly call FT state propaganda in any circumstance. To me true state propaganda is where the state has editorial authority over the dissemination of stories - in the west that still relatively rare. But absolutely independent of whether FT are propaganda - it does not matter in any way to this story whether they are a 'protected class'. The outrage is that TikTok employees abused their user data in the pursuit of an agenda against targeted individuals.
LarryMullins 4y ago
What are you accusing them of exactly? Lying? Or truthful reporting that happens to align with the interests of some American politicians?

stjohnswarts 4y ago

We really really need to shut this down as a national security issue. If they took it off Apple and Google Play stores it would reduce usage immediately by at least 80-90% along with having apple/android send out blocks like they can for malware (which it is). It's hard to believe Biden didn't continue Trump's attempt to shut it down.

jibe 4y ago
>Trump's attempt to shut it down. Believe it or not, Trump’s policy was more nuanced than what are getting now. They were in the process of forcing a sale of the company to a US owner.
- tomComb 4y ago
  I think you mean that you saw Trump's solution as more effective. It wasn't more nuanced. Trump's solution involved a one off payoff for a supporter (Oracle), whereas the current admin is at least trying to develop a policy framework and solve the problem with less corruption and arbitrary use of power. The latter is much more work but - to bring it back to the issue - is more nuanced.
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    I can't think of a faster way to kill the app or any app than to sell it to Oracle. Seriously give it to Oracle and 20 minutes. When you have to spend 3 minutes waiting for the next TikTok to load people will find alternatives real quick.
wikfwikf 4y ago
What about the First Amendment?
- master-lincoln 4y ago
  What about it? Does it specify that all Chinese mobile apps need to be distributed by the major mobile companies? I don't see how it's related. Please elaborate.

Hitton 4y ago

So if I'm reading this right, it was wrong only because they were spying on Americans. Spying on others is apparently still ok.

Veen 4y ago
You're not reading it right. The FT journalist in this story is not American. But, as a general rule, nations seek to protect their own citizens.
- Hitton 4y ago
  They wrote that other users connected to her were also targeted, which apparently included Americans too. Otherwise why would they do this: >ByteDance has since restructured its internal audit team and removed access to US data from that department. I read it as their internal audit team still having access to userdata data from other regions.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- hello_friendos 4y ago
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trasz3 4y ago
Twitter hired private spooks to track journalists and Elon is still living off government grants, so yeah, obviously.

roenxi 4y ago

One of the more unexpected parts of the Twitter files (part 7, in fact) is it reveals some well developed linkages between the US intelligence services and media companies. If the US is blurring the corporate-government boundaries, the Chinese are certainly much more aggressive in their activities. And all these agencies run extra-legal kidnapping operations. I'm rare in that although I don't like it corporate spying doesn't really scare me. Corporations can't do very much without breaking the law. My concern is that this information is then passed on to the people who are empowered to come and drag me out of my home. Some of whom aren't even subject to my legal system. It makes more extreme measures like the GDPR seem insufficient.

thefounder 4y ago
After wikileaks/Snowden this is just not news anymore. I really fail to see what's new. What am I missing?
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  People learning about this for the first time. Snowden/wikileaks weren't even the first ones to share this. It's been well known for decades. It's not a secret. It's well known and well established in many industries. And why does this happen? Because money. Every single tech darling plays along. Chances are, unless you knew for a fact you weren't participating in this, you were at some level.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Prior to Snowden those people were derided as part of the paranoid tinfoil hat crowd. The only thing known was some vague discussion of Carnivore and Tempest.
    - jasonlotito 4y ago
      No, they weren't. It was well known. Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it wasn't well known.

bad-engineers 4y ago

Surprised they paywalled this one. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! 'Yourself' as both an industry and a specific business.

alarmingfox 4y ago

Non-paywall link: https://archive.vn/1jRVq https://archive.vn/1jRVq

sergiotapia 4y ago

We should ban this app from the United States. What dirt will China have on our politicians 30 years from now?

TechBro8615 4y ago
How do you propose we "ban" it from the United States? Should it be illegal for me to run TikTok on any of my devices? Do you want the US government to compel Apple and Google to delist TikTok from their app stores? Before answering, consider carefully whether this is a precedent you want to set. Some in government may want to do the same for Twitter.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Read the proposed ANTI-SOCIAL CCP Act. That’s how.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > How do you propose we "ban" it from the United States? Sanction it. > some in government may want to do the same for Twitter Difficult to do this with an American, or even allied, country.
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    The result of this will be millions of American teen girls learning how to "sideload" apps onto their device. Of course, a significant percentage of them will end up sideloading malware onto their device at the same time. The funny aspect to me is that the senators pushing to "ban TikTok" are the same senators pushing for an "open App Store" bill. But I don't see how you can have it both ways. Sure you can sanction TikTok. Are you going to jail every middle schooler who "does business" with them by downloading the app from unofficial sources? Or perhaps you want to force ISPs to drop connections to TikTok servers?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > funny aspect to me is that the senators pushing to "ban TikTok" are the same senators pushing for an "open App Store" bill They're both about open markets. China is not only a closed market, it's threatening our open-market allies. > going to jail every middle schooler who "does business" with them by downloading the app from unofficial sources? If they download the app from unofficial sources and then send it money, somehow, or get money from it, somehow, yes, they'd be treated like someone trading with the Taliban. If they're just using the software, no, that's like using open-source code written by an Iranian.

zkid18 4y ago

Politics apart, can anyone explain how access from China was possible if all PII data is under Oracle control?