20 ms·

The Tesla Semi cab from the practical POV of someone who drives trucks

520 points by danso 4y ago

izzydata 4y ago
dools 4y ago
Somewhat related is the new Janus electric truck retrofitting system rolling out now in Australia https://www.januselectric.com.au/ https://www.januselectric.com.au/
pastor_bob 4y ago
"What's the point of these complaints when the driver will be replaced by FSD in one year" - Elon
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  One hopes that between boondoggles like this, the roadster, cybertruck, yoke, FSD, not to mention Twitter, that people will become more skeptical and realistic instead of swallowing everything Elon says without any critical thought.
henvic 4y ago
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  At risk of being a hypocrite, this isn't worth posting without reasoning I'm about as ignorant as one could be with this topic and folks like me would be better served by elaboration or bowing out
- a4isms 4y ago
  If there are some bad takes in TFA, please list the bad takes and why they are wrong. That would add value to the conversation. And frankly, sometimes a wrong essay or rant makes for a good HN post if it serves to provoke informative conversation. But only if that conversation is informative. So add some information!
- cjdoc29 4y ago
  I'm a big fan of Tesla. I own their cars. I even own FSD for each of my cars. But I was not informed on why their new Semi might be badly designed for the use case they were designed for. Tesla designs some things stupidly (i.e. they aren't perfect) - for example, have you ever tried to change the air filter in a 2019 Model 3? Maybe you should support your post with why their take is invalid. Each of their takes has a reason why they hold their opinion. Yours does not.
spamizbad 4y ago
This mirrors some Facebook comments from my trucker buddy that had a few of the same complaints, although his take was a bit more optimistic (he thinks Tesla will fix the flaws in an updated model soon as he doesn't think this will sell.)
- _ea1k 4y ago
  Yeah, its not as if a cab redesign would be difficult if that ends up being an obstacle. TBH, though, I'm guessing it works better in practice than they let on. They've had a few years of testing, for better or worse.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I really think the difference is going to be long-haul vs short delivery trucks. Also remember the people buying the short-haul delivery trucks ain't the ones drivin' them.
    - _ea1k 4y ago
      TBH, the Semi was designed with that thought in mind, for better and worse. I'm sure its a very different market from the owner operator. I can't imagine a single case where this would be practical for an owner operator at the moment, but I'd love to be corrected.
nluken 4y ago
Note that the author of this thread is comparing to European-style trucks. I am not a trucker so I would be interested to hear whether American-style trucks have similar flaws, or whether these are specific to the Tesla Semi.
- pornel 4y ago
  This sounds very much like a "designed in California" problem. Who would have thought about mud, frosted mirrors, border crossings…
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    Maybe 'designed in the Bay Area'. If you take a look at a map you'll notice that California has significant mountain ranges and shares a border with Mexico.
  - sgc 4y ago
    California is not all sunshine and beaches. They have been driving them over a mountain pass in the Sierra-Nevada between Reno and Fremont for years now. They are willfully ignoring problems, not unaware of them.
- jjulius 4y ago
  I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US and can vouch for a lot of these concerns, especially the placement of the driver in the center. Being able to easily reach out of the window easily is vital to that job.
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    > I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US... Likewise. And you're correct.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  The first American electric semi has a traditional layout, driver on the left, normal doors, normal ingress and egress. About the same as the European truck except it is not a cabover design and there is a nose in front of the windshield.
johnthuss 4y ago
"Drivers sits in the middle. This makes overtaking or looking ahead more difficult. But also makes it impossible to reach out of the window to pass the paperwork or to talk with the guy in the gatehouse when you enter a port or a factory or, say, a tollbooth." This one seems like the worst one of all these criticisms.
- raldi 4y ago
  Worst as in most salient or least?
- function_seven 4y ago
  My guess is that they needed to get the drag coefficient down, and did so by first raking the windshield back, then pinching the cab horizontally to get some more gains. That narrowing of the cab then led to the center-seat arrangement? Bonus being that you don't need to configure a LHD and RHD version of this truck for different markets.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - eastbound 4y ago
    Different markets can’t be addressed with the same truck anyway. Lights are different, mandatory equipment is different, EU trucks are limited cabin-inclusive, US trucks are cabin-exclusive, etc.
    - adwww 4y ago
      Lots and lots of LHD trucks serve the UK making daily cross channel trips, or even just based here full time from Dutch / Eastern European shipping firms.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        The UK was until very recently part of the same market, with no reason to change all their truck design rules after Brexit. The US/Europe scenario is not the same.
avgDev 4y ago
"Build around driver" - Tesla Designed by a tech bro that lives in a city and uses public transportation, also hates driving.
- suzakus 4y ago
  Loves public transport and hates driving? Not awfully likely in the US. Our public transport is fairly abysmal outside a few large cities.
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Did you upgrade OP's words from "uses" to "loves" or did someone edit their comment?
    - suzakus 4y ago
      I can't remember now, sorry; I might have upgraded it mentally as a parallel to his use of the word hates. My bad!
wilg 4y ago
It would be more useful to have the perspective of someone who actually drives one. When people see a different design it’s easy to come up with lots of ways it’s different from what you’re used to but you can’t really see which problems have been solved in a different way than you might assume. Plus, it’s a day cab so it’s not surprising there’s no obvious place for a bed. Also, it’s strange that someone would think it’s a “rich boy’s toy” like rich boys are going to be buying semi trucks for fun.
- littlestymaar 4y ago
  Elon is the rich boy here.
  - wilg 4y ago
    Yes, I understand. But it does not make sense for this to somehow be a toy for him.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      It makes sense if you interpret it as a toy he invented, not a toy for him to drive. Like saying this is just a vanity project to build something Elon likes the idea of, but isn't otherwise serious about fitting into the market it is aimed at.
      - wilg 4y ago
        Seems like a strange vanity project then. The new roadster would be a lot more fun!
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        Not that strange IMO. This is the same guy that wanted his own boring machine. I don't really have the impression that he's a sports car guy.
    - InitialLastName 4y ago
_ea1k 4y ago
I'm always a little skeptical of long form complaints that mix seemingly important things (papers please) with seemingly trivial preferences (he doesn't like where he'd doff his boots?). Its a day cab, not a sleeper, so that whole section of complaints is fairly irrelevant. OTOH, he makes some good points about the ergonomics of seat and door placement. But are these really the things that will drive or diminish sales? Put another way, imagine that you were a truck driver and a day cab would be sufficient. Now imagine one saved a few dozen $$ per day in fuel costs. Would you put up with not taking your shoes off where you want to in exchange for a few dollars? These are good insights, but the framing seems a bit hyperbolic.
- osrec 4y ago
  Why not just stick to the older, more convenient design?
  - function_seven 4y ago
    The older design isn't as aerodynamic. And that's very important for a battery-powered truck.
    - lzaaz 4y ago
      We shouldn't switch to battery-powered vehicles until they can replace our current ICE vehicles.
      - cjdoc29 4y ago
        That's short-sighted. It's also possible to create a BEV that might not replace ICE vehicles for all use cases, but one that replaces the ICE vehicle in particular circumstances. A BEV fits into my lifestyle. So much so that I think owning an ICE vehicle would decrease my quality of life. I don't want to go to a gas station every week. I don't want to have to take my car in for tune-ups every year.
        4y ago
osrec 4y ago
I actually think this is a very good analysis. A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function. What really was interesting for me, was the fact that electric trucks from more established players exist already, but haven't really taken off. Maybe the Musk x-factor will allow Tesla to sell their truck where others have failed.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function. As far as I can tell, that would be all of them. And if rumors are true, Tesla might be about to escalate that to the next level with their bread-and-butter cars. Brave, or stupid, ask in a year.
  - joshgachnang 4y ago
    What rumors are you talking about?
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      That they're going to put the yoke on the Model 3/Y and remove the gear stalk. Like they did on the Model S.
      - jonathankoren 4y ago
        Oh god. You can’t even turn that wheel all they way around to park, but hey! F1 is cool, and they don’t have a wheel.
      - yreg 4y ago
        Afaik the rumour[0] is a Semi wheel[1], not a Model S wheel. Would be surprised to see the yoke on TM3/Y, since the only purposes of that thing are to make TMS/X "cooler" and to make it easier to see the the display which TM3/Y lack. [0] - https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1084/tesla-s-2023-model-3-revamp-is-for-cost-cutting-not-a-redesign https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1084/tesla-s-2023-model-3-... [1] - https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/tesla-semi-production-interior.jpg https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/tesla-s...
Jonanin 4y ago
This may be a well informed take (or not), but it's hard to think he doesn't have an axe to grind when the first sentence is an information-free put down ending in a clown emoji. Would love to see a more neutral analysis.
porphyra 4y ago
The cab forward design that OP prefers is so much more sensible and practical than the "standard" cab design that's so common in the US. The Tesla Semi is more aerodynamic than its peers though. I wonder how you can improve the aerodynamics without having a narrow front or sloped windshield.
- ErikCorry 4y ago
  The cab-forward design is driven by Europe having a max length for trucks that includes the tractor, whereas in the US the max length doesn't include the tractor. For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    Which means more cabin room, which means more comfort for resting/sleeping/relaxing in addition to driving for folks that literally live in these vehicles for days or weeks at a time. > For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon I'm not expecting to see the Tesla Semi in the US soon either... it's a product in search of a problem.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The most "aerodynamic" shape is a teardrop, with a relatively flat front end, so they could probably do something with that. The "roll down window" thing is relatively easy to solve if they want to; you either make a seat that can slide to the side or redesign the front end. I expect a redesign of the cab when the truck isn't selling every single one they can make.
  - three_seagrass 4y ago
    Not to mention skirts and tails on the trailer do more to improve aerodynamics than truck modifications. Still, every bit counts I guess.
    - bombcar 4y ago
mrguyorama 4y ago
I genuinely had the same thoughts. Just the fact that it was so clearly different showed that Tesla hadn't even talked to actual truckers about it. It's significantly more cramped than a roomy American style cab, and has very little room for the things a trucker might bring with them. Truckers also occasionally bring family with them on some trips, and this cab makes that kind of thing impossible.
alkonaut 4y ago
I agree with the complaints it’s not built for/around the driver. It’s built for range. Having a vertical windscreen just isn’t going to be efficient. The window deicing problem is worth solving to get the range of a streamlined front. The next iteration of this vehicle will likely solve many of these complaints (of which some seem poorly designed for no obvious reason) but I doubt it will ever have a vertical windscreen.
glogla 4y ago
It is not interesting just to see that the design is bad, but that it is getting worse over time. Model S was relatively normal car. Model X added crazy doors. Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors). The Semi has all these issues. And the Cybertruck is just entirely plain idiotic as a whole. It is as if the Tesla designers (or Musk micromanaging them) are getting more and more detached from reality.
- wilg 4y ago
  The Model 3/Y have many physical controls and is great to drive! The doors on the X are pretty silly though.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    The Model 3 today is alright. Would be significantly better with auto presenting door handles, a normal latch for the glovebox, an infrared sensor for rain, and the option to use old school cruise control. The thought that they might do something silly like a yoke and "automatic" gear selection in the Model 3 is a bit horrifying. That will push away a lot of the regular folks who just want their car to be a car. Hell, I'd like to be able to turn OFF autopilot on my model 3 altogether, because I'd happily give up lane keeping just for the ability to use old-school cruise control.
    - wilg 4y ago
      The door handles don't bug me, but they do confuse people the first few times. Couldn't care less about the glovebox. I don't keep anything I regularly use in there and I like that it has a PIN for secure storage and is otherwise invisible. Haven't tried the yoke so who the hell knows. I would never want to use cruise control instead of Autopilot (though it does have it, sort of). I assume by "old school" you mean not using the Autopilot speed logic?
- Sebb767 4y ago
  > Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors). Which is a dealbreaker for me as well, but people seem to accept and/or like it. The number of orders speak for themselves and, while I hear a lot of complaints from owners, the tablet is usually not one of them.
samwillis 4y ago
My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks. It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver. They may claim this is "designed around the driver", but the reality is it's designed around (eventually) making the driver redundant. Why design a cab to be optimised to the driver when you plan to remove them. No, you design around efficiency, that's what they have done here. That's not to say I believe that Tesla will achieve that, or that this can is well designed. I think it will be companies with a long history in the industry, understanding of their local markets, that will do this.
- flutas 4y ago
  > It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver. Stage one of that is probably "Convoy Mode" as they call it. > “Convoy Mode,” which optimizes efficiency while allowing several uncrewed trucks to follow a lead, crewed vehicle. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla-semi-has-the-technical-capability-to-convoy-today/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla-semi-has-the-technic... NOTE: not talking about feasibility one way or the other, just mentioning that they have claimed similar goals in the past.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks. Then Tesla has a lot of catching up to do. Other companies have been running driverless big rigs between Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio for at least two years.
- 4y ago
simondotau 4y ago
I’d be far more interested in hearing thoughts from someone who has actually driven the Semi.
themagician 4y ago
Tesla knows all this. This truck is for a very specific niche: owned fleets near two warehouses or within a 500 mile round trip from a major port. Basically: all the warehouses in the Inland Empire near LAX and Long Beach and the warehouses in the Newark area that service the NYC metro area. It has the potential to dramatically reduce costs for some routes/corridors. It will be a big hit in these areas. It will have a large impact on a very specific niche. There's nothing wrong with that. These aren't going to be used by independent truckers. It's not for them. It's for drivers making the same 80-100 mile or so trip from port to warehouse every day.
- kelnos 4y ago
  It snows in the NYC metro area, so all the complaints about how the truck is unsuitable for snow are still applicable.
- spoils19 4y ago
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    Thread is written by trucker who is making correct points to a design made in an office, but never consulted with an end user.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Jesus Christ
- elijaht 4y ago
  I don't see how that is relevant. Nearly all of the criticisms posed (maybe not the snow one?) would still be relevant to a driver in the situation you describe. This has nothing to do with range or even the fact that it's electric
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    While I largely agree with you, there are at least a subset of the complaints in the Twitter thread that are pretty inconsequential if the truck is only intended for < 500 mile routes (for example, the "no space for a bed" complaint).
a4isms 4y ago
I am not a trucker, so I can't comment on the veracity of TFA's claims. But this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt. A lot of the things that matter aren't necessarily obvious to the designer or engineer who knows little about the nuts and bolts of every field. The usual remedy is to either follow a design process that incorporates user viewpoints, or to hire people with direct experience in the field. Take the "wiping the mirrors" complaint. One design makes it easy to lean out the window and wipe the mirror by hand. Another design might make the mirrors retractible. If I read a complain that retracting the mirrors was unnecessary complexity, I would think "Hmm, maybe, but then again it's a tradeoff because the narrow cab is more aero and increases range." I'd have a feeling that the designers knew this was an important use case, but this person complaining doesn't like their solution. But it worries me that a number of use cases that seem quite obviously common even to a layperson... Are neglected outright. I don't get the impression that Tesla knew about all this and decided not to do anything about them, I get the impression that this is a company who thinks "design" is all about styling, and not about usability. Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs.
- blagie 4y ago
  My general design process: 1. Design it myself. Get my ideas on paper before I'm biased. 2. Review designs. See how other people did it. 3. Talk to experts. 4. Integrate ideas and build it. Most of my clever ideas turn out to be dumb at step #2 or #3, but a few pan out, and those have been important. In many cases, there is some kind of fusion too. It seems someone missed steps 2-4 here.
  - V__ 4y ago
    That sounds intriguing. Can you talk about some success (and failures)?
    - blagie 4y ago
      No, since that would tie back to my identity. I use throw-away accounts online. When I upgrade my web browser, this account will disappear and a new one will appear. I have the level of fame where you almost certainly wouldn't recognize my name, but where most people (not just on HN) have heard of one project I created from scratch (to give an analogy, very few people would recognize the inventor of the Nerf gun, the Super Soaker, the touch screen, a popular TV show, or the iPod, but if you said "I'm the inventor of the ____," they'd know who you were). It takes about 30 seconds with Google my successes and failures to figure out who I am. I attribute that success to: 1. Being willing and able to talk to a large and diverse set of experts (and not just recognized ones; in the above example, an expert might be a trucker, rather than just a truck designer, and you want to talk to both, not to mention people who hire truckers, people who ship things, etc.). Finding something like an "expert trucker" is probably harder than you'd imagine; "expert trucker" isn't the same as "random trucker." 2. Being able to swallow my ego, ignore my ideas, and follow their advice. Most of my success was based on gluing together ideas that other people / products had in innovative combinations, and in being somehow effective at scouring the universe for good ideas.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
This seems to assume the Tesla semi should meet every demand from every kind of trucker, but it’s simply not meant to and no truck is perfect for every trip. The Tesla semi seems geared towards short haul rather than long. It’s range may sound somewhat long, but I suspect many of these will “return to dock” in the same day, charging in the same warehouse yard each day, and if not, within a small network of warehouses. It’s not meant to go interstate and roam far and wide, charge multiple times, then return to home base. Well, maybe it is. I just don’t have that impression. If Tesla’s not aware of how impractical that would be then the whole world is crazy. It seems like they do know though and these are intended to operate in relatively small networks where conditions are easier to control and anticipate.
fasthands9 4y ago
> And if you really want an electric truck, then just get Nikola, that uses Iveco Stralis cab, with the design perfected over half of century I honestly didnt know they are still shipping. Their numbers are very small (under 50 a quarter) which admittedly makes me feel like the rest of that post has some elements of bias/screed to it. Is it really a logical alternative to buy an EV truck from a bespoke manufacturer known for (criminally proven) fraud?
- riffraff 4y ago
  I thought it had been proven beyond doubt Nikola was a scam, I'm honestly surprised it's still active.
  - zardo 4y ago
    I don't know if the whole company was a scam, but they did do 'a' scam, pretending they had a functioning truck when they didn't by rolling it down a hill.
faebi 4y ago
I do really wonder what the Euro-style Semi will look like. Will it be complete redesign or will the just replace the cabin?
S0und 4y ago
Valid points until he brought up Nikola as an example. A terrible example.
- MBCook 4y ago
  Why? He only brought it up for the cab shape. Is their cab problematic as well?
  - oceliker 4y ago
    I think the point is that if you want to showcase the alternatives that work, don't pick the company whose founder has been convicted of fraud.
- mwint 4y ago
  Works great as long as your warehouses are all downhill from eachother.
andinaror 4y ago
AndrewStephens 4y ago
These criticisms all miss the point, assuming that this vehicle was designed for drivers to use to ship actual goods instead of investors to view and throw money at. I suspect this design is quite good at that.
InTheArena 4y ago
I'm guessing that this author is European. Just a guess because a lot of the criticism seem more applicable to Europe, as most of the complaints are ones that I have heard comparing a European cab over engine truck versus an American conventional truck. Also, there tend to be fewer situations where American drivers need to get out, except at rest stops and weigh stations. Weigh stations (from what I understand, not an expert in this field) are automated in the USA, while rest stops require disembarking. Cab over versus "Standard" almost always come down to the maximum length of a truck being determined with the cab in Europe, and without in the USA. The vastly shorter trip duty length is also a factor - you get in and out much more frequently in Europe.
jedberg 4y ago
The Tesla cars have strange things in them too where it seems like they were designed by people who don't use the cars for work. The prime example being the lack of coat hangers in the car. People who use their car for work often have to carry dry cleaning or uniforms or other hanging items in the car. They eventually made one you can buy as an add on, but it was strange that it didn't have them. Also the whole tablets thing (also mentioned here). The cars have the same problem -- it's really hard to do anything by touch and they are always glowing at you. This sucks for everyone but especially people who use their car for work and most likely are trying to make a call or do other things they probably shouldn't be doing while driving.
- potatochup 4y ago
  What the designers/engineers want (convenience, ease of use) is often sidelined in favor of making money (keeping mfg costs low, dealing with supply chain issues)
- moocow01 4y ago
  They do technically have coat hangers in back but they pop out.
- bagels 4y ago
  My Model 3 has coat hanger hooks in it. Maybe only older or specific ones lack them?
  - joenathanone 4y ago
    My OG 2018 Model 3 and my 2022 X both have coat hangers and I use them daily, so my dress shirt doesn't get wrinkled by my seatbelt.
impulser_ 4y ago
This seems to be a trend with the latest Telsa future products. They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them. The Cybertruck is another example of this.
- danans 4y ago
  > They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them. The original genius of Tesla's approach is exactly that: maximizing form over function to drive the adoption of electric cars. Maximizing desirability, not utility, has been central. In this way, they are really not so different from other luxury carmakers, who also sacrifice daily utility for form in their cars. As much as the world needs an electric Ford Taurus or Honda Accord, as Nissan discovered with the Leaf, that approach didn't move people to open their wallets to the same degree. > The Cybertruck is another example of this. The Cybertruck is an example of applying the above approach to create a caricature of pickup-truck utility that markets well to the Cybertruck's target demographic: faux-survivalist men with lots of disposable income. An actual utilitarian EV pickup truck would be something smaller like a Ford Maverick or a Toyota Tacoma with a simpler body that works with lots of standard aftermarket parts. I really hope Ford follows the gargantuan expensive F150 Lighting with something smaller and more sensible.
Havoc 4y ago
That makes an alarming amount of sense
Melatonic 4y ago
Lot of these are good points but I think we would really need to have the guy actually test one of the Tesla trucks to know. The center position thing, for example, does sound shitty. But how do we know that the driver could not simply lean to the side temporarily to reach out the window? That seems like it would not be THAT hard. The tablets though I agree - it is ridiculous that all Tesla vehicles rely on them so heavily. If that tablet breaks you now have a fairly useless vehicle. Just lazy design at this point and dangerous. What they really need is the Saab night mode design - that was super cool!
- quonn 4y ago
  If the touchscreen breaks you get a replacement. What if the break pedal or anything else breaks? Same issue. Additionally the car drives fine without the touchscreen. You can test this by rebooting. Sure, the speedometer is missing so it‘s not exactly great, but it would be enough to get to a safe position.
fooker 4y ago
Until this month, the primary mode of criticizing the Tesla Semi was demonstrating infeasibility of electric trucks with misunderstood high school physics. Now, it is just about driver convenience. What’s next? Upholstery perhaps?
mlindner 4y ago
This reminds me of something like what was written when various other Tesla models came out with tons of people complaining about the design, only for them to go on to sell extremely well. The vehicle had been in testing with real drivers for years. This is one of the longest development periods for a new Tesla vehicle ever. I’m much more likely to trust that over someone on Twitter who starts his first comment with a clown emoji and makes large parts of the post about Elon. He won’t buy it but plenty others will.
mgrthrow 4y ago
I love how many comments here are, "I have no domain expertise, but these seem like nitpicks". If a user provides feedback like this, listen. Getting this sort of detail from a user about design decisions is invaluable. They know the ergonomic setup they need, what works and doesn't, and they will have insights a non domain expert simply can't.
- beeboop 4y ago
  A truck driver who isn't the intended audience for the vehicle and doesn't understand the engineering decisions that went into the product. For every con he lists there's a con to the opposite approach. There isn't clear cut right and wrong here. It's just different use cases.
  - mgrthrow 4y ago
    ^ case in point.
  - thebytefairy 4y ago
    Who is the intended audience if not a truck driver?
    - cypress66 4y ago
      The company that buys it.
      - foepys 4y ago
        In times of worker shortages, if your workers hate your equipment, they will simply leave for a competitor who values them more.
soheil 4y ago
Driver in the middle gives better visibility and command and control of the road. I don't understand the negativity here when the guy presumably a truck driver's tweet 1. ends up on top of hacker news! 2. complains about something he hasn't test driven or experienced. Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road. I can't stop wondering if these are coordinated attacks on Musk, let's give the truck a chance before piling on. If other Tesla cars are a guide it will be a game changer. [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12019673/mclaren-f1-center-seating-position/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12019...
- mentalpiracy 4y ago
  You're here dismissing competent design critiques with the claim that this guy doesn't have the right experiences, therefore opinion = null. Can you describe your experience driving F1 cars in a mixed-traffic highway environment?
  - soheil 4y ago
    McLaren F1 != F1 cars I don't have experience with that and neither does he with the Semi, that's the point. He hasn't been in that truck, all these armchair theorizing are just that and kinda bizarre as most car reviewers typically drive the car/truck before giving their opinion as no one would take them seriously otherwise. It's doubly bizarre to see this on top of Hackernews.
- kennend3 4y ago
  > Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road. How often does a F1 driver stop at a mandatory weigh station and need to hand over paperwork for his load? In case you are unaware, this is actually rather common for truck drivers. All along the highway systems there are mandatory truck stop weigh stations. I'd say the points he raises are valid, while your comparison to the "f1" is meaningless.
  - 4y ago
redox99 4y ago
Most of these flaws are because Tesla optimized for efficiency/range/tco, and not actual driver comfort. After all, the driver is not the one buying the truck. They probably figured they wanted that shape for maximum efficiency. However maybe that narrow shape forced them to go with the center driver and all the things the author dislikes. The logistics of just slapping a couple screens are much simpler than designing and manufacturing an interior with physical buttons. Also they'll surely plan to drop those mirrors anyway, and use the screens as mirrors (which solves his cleaning complain, cheaper truck, more efficient, etc).
justinhj 4y ago
There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture. Not to discredit his opinion as a truck driver but I’m pretty sure his mind was made up when he saw the brand.
- defterGoose 4y ago
  > There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture. Twitter EULA update incoming...
Waterluvian 4y ago
I love this thread so much. Every issue he mentions is obvious once pointed out. This is a great example of something I repeat to myself all the time, particularly because I find myself surrounded by people who don’t: I might be clever and perceptive but I do not know better than the user.
qwertox 4y ago
> Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it. This is generally an issue. I really don't understand how car manufacturers believe that a touchscreen is a good interface in a car where you often need to look at the road and touch the controls in order to feel at which button or knob you are. I'd rather have high quality resistive touchscreens where the surface can be touched but a good degree of pressure needs to be applied in order to execute a command. Ideally it would have some sort of vibration feedback when I cross a boundary between buttons.
- quonn 4y ago
  It‘s fine in practice because most things are automatic or only needed when parked and also because the lane keeping and adaptive cruise control aka Autopilot makes a very brief distraction less of a problem in most situations. There are with two exceptions: - Opening the glove box. This should be possible by pressing the box, it could visually look the same. Instead it requires drilling into a touchscreen menu. - Music pause/like/seek. The buttons are too small to easily hit them while driving.
  - Dah00n 4y ago
    Moving the air vents around being 3 menus deep seems like a no go but some designer still made it.
    - flutas 4y ago
      > Moving the air vents around being 3 menus deep seems like a no go but some designer still made it. What model is that on? M3/Y at least you literally just swipe up from the bottom and there's your entire cars hvac controls, including air vents.
Animats 4y ago
At the smaller end of electric trucks, here's a driver evaluation of the Rivian delivery truck made for Amazon.[1] This looks like it was designed by time and motion study people. It's optimized for a very specific job. Door control and access are all really easy as long as you have the key fob on you. The door to the package area opens and closes automatically, so when the driver is out of the vehicle, nothing is stealable. There are big screens, and they're showing the next few stops the driver is expected to make. If you take your foot off the accelerator, you come to a stop. Parking brake is automatic. It's boring, but useful. Tesla did not go that route. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFz1xqp3us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFz1xqp3us
slimebot80 4y ago
"Also, even those small tablets are annoying as hell at night, as even if you turn them black, they still tend to glow." Tablet screens in cars and trucks is a staggering thing to me. Just reeks of design for the sake of impressing people and getting sales, with poor judgement of usability. Give me a basic physical dial or switch any day. Don't make me look away from the road. Allow me to use muscle memory and get physical feedback. What a nightmare path this has gone down.
larodi 4y ago
I love this article so much.
diebeforei485 4y ago
It needs a narrow "nose" for aero and range, which necessitates a center position seat. Also the author should be aware that Nikola trucks are vaporware, and the video they showed of their truck was just rolling downill.
coding123 4y ago
The "hallway to a door" is one of the worst mistakes in living space layouts. They really designed the cab to turn heads rather than be functional.
etempleton 4y ago
This is the problem with Tesla in a nutshell. The underlying tech is great, they just honestly aren’t great at making vehicles because they insist on throwing out everything about making a vehicle that has been learned over the past century. In a few instance this has led to interesting improvements, but a lot of times it has led to compromised vehicles. The problem Tesla has is everyone is catching up on the tech and in 5-10 years, with diminished tech advantage, how many people are choosing a Tesla?
- quonn 4y ago
  10 years is a long time. Many of their choices are to drive costs down and that will give Tesla a competitive advantage.
syngrog66 4y ago
I'm no trucker, but I've been doing design analysis for decades. I love this guy's takedown because when I studied the Tesla Semi cab design I also had about 5 of these damning observation points too. I hoped they had some Expert in charge at Tesla and simply Knew Better. I suspect instead they fell prey to the trap of min-maxing some set of goal metrics. Where they make design choices to hit their target numbers, no matter what it takes, even if it causes other qualities to go to hell. Shame on Musk. Because its the sort of thing his time would have been better focused on, than his (also erratic and bumbling) Twitter takeover. As CEO the buck stops with him.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jupp0r 4y ago
Sounds like this person has never used a conventional (non cabover) truck and most of his points (minus the tablet) also apply to them?
nemo44x 4y ago
Isn’t the point of the semi that the driver isn’t really necessary? They’re there for compliance until full self driving on interstates doesn’t need them? Even things like passing paperwork - isn’t the idea that the truck will communicate with another system? There’s been a lot of “Musk is such an idiot” content recently when his track record clearly shows he’s not. Many mocked the Model S until it was obvious it was a hit.
xyzelement 4y ago
Product manager here (nothing to do with transportation). It seems like the Tweet thread and some comments here are complaining about the design tradeoffs without considering the use case. From what I see from comments in this thread, these trucks are meant for pretty specific short haul use cases, with consistent routes and perhaps the origin and destination points being owned by the same company as the truck (eg Pepsi, FedEx) So for example, if this truck carries packages between two FedEx facilities in the NYC area, its chances of encountering a cash-only toll booth are zero, and the company can use electronic records systems that obviate the need to present paperwork (in fact, I bet FedEx does this already anyway.) Likewise I believe many if not all weigh stations in this area are electronic as well. So it may seem superficially that Tesla traded off one thing (driver comfort, by forcing them to get out of the cab more often) for another (energy efficiency due to aerodynamic design) but in reality it maybe that in these use cases, the driver won't be getting out of the cab anyway for reasons above, so it's basically "free mileage." I can make similar guesses as to why some of the other complaints don't actually hurt anything, or maybe are worth it. Eg: let's say there are 3 times a year the driver has to get out of the cab to clean the mirrors. Maybe doing that 3x a year is well worth the increased energy efficiency of every single mile this truck drives in it's life.
- tptacek 4y ago
  This is the second comment on this thread that I've seen make this argument. It doesn't hold up. Very few of the complaints in this article have anything to do with long-haul drives. The center console seat is a baffling decision, and toll booths --- which happen on short-haul drives! --- are just one of the complaints.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    I literally talked about the toll booth case in my post. I don't remember the last time I paid cash toll personally, and I used the specific example of the NYC region where they don't exist. If you are going to operate the truck in a region with tons of cash toll booths then probably this one isn't for you.
runlevel1 4y ago
The Teamsters union, who represent a big chunk of the truckers in the US, have lobbied against Tesla's self-driving truck efforts in the past.[^1] I'll be interested to see if the Teamsters intensify their opposition to Tesla with these now hitting the streets -- even if they're lacking any self-driving abilities. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/business/dealbook/teamsters-union-tries-to-slow-self-driving-truck-push.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/business/dealbook/teamste...
- InTheArena 4y ago
  The unions have had Tesla in this sights for far more reasons for a long time. I’m not sure it will make any difference.
  - runlevel1 4y ago
    After further reading, I've learned that the membership is much smaller than I had thought. The Teamsters Freight division, which includes other roles like dockworkers and mechanics, seems to only have 75,000 members.[^1] In 2019, the US Census Bureau reported there were 3.5M truckers. So you're probably right. [1]: https://www.teamstersjc42.com/about/trades/ https://www.teamstersjc42.com/about/trades/ [2]: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/america-keeps-on-trucking.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/america-keeps...
pedalpete 4y ago
This is a great example of where the buyer is different from the user, and the design was focused on the buyer. Tesla focused on reducing operating costs and down time for these trucks with features like stronger, possibly break-proof, windows. In truck fleets, do the drivers care about these things? I'm sure some of these issues will be addressed in future versions, but for now, Tesla is focused on selling to fleets that will buy hundreds of trucks for their drivers, not the business where the trucker is the owner.
askvictor 4y ago
That very last post with the Colani truck https://twitter.com/TOrynski/status/1600978542891630592 https://twitter.com/TOrynski/status/1600978542891630592 - is too similar to the Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car.
entropicgravity 4y ago
Bike shedding gone wild here. Move along.
eternalban 4y ago
That Colani truck was pretty wild so i had to google it. Here is the man, Luigi Colani, "The modern Leonardo"* https://www.colani.com/ https://www.colani.com/ This thing is wild: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/LuigiColani-DesignTrucks.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/LuigiCol... * but did he blush when he wrote this?
djexjms 4y ago
I am a CDL holder who used to do long haul trucking. I haven't had a chance to get behind the wheel of these vehicles yet, but the only criticism that I feel holds weight here is the one about not being able to get the light levels on the tablets to a non-distracting level during night driving. Hopefully that can be addressed with further development. The door being behind the driver's seat is a bit odd, and I anticipate it causing some confusion during traffic stops, but if these vehicles attain any decent market share, people will get used to it.

520 points by danso 4y ago

Somewhat related is the new Janus electric truck retrofitting system rolling out now in Australia https://www.januselectric.com.au/ https://www.januselectric.com.au/

pastor_bob 4y ago

"What's the point of these complaints when the driver will be replaced by FSD in one year" - Elon

rootusrootus 4y ago
One hopes that between boondoggles like this, the roadster, cybertruck, yoke, FSD, not to mention Twitter, that people will become more skeptical and realistic instead of swallowing everything Elon says without any critical thought.

henvic 4y ago

bravetraveler 4y ago
At risk of being a hypocrite, this isn't worth posting without reasoning I'm about as ignorant as one could be with this topic and folks like me would be better served by elaboration or bowing out
a4isms 4y ago
If there are some bad takes in TFA, please list the bad takes and why they are wrong. That would add value to the conversation. And frankly, sometimes a wrong essay or rant makes for a good HN post if it serves to provoke informative conversation. But only if that conversation is informative. So add some information!
cjdoc29 4y ago
I'm a big fan of Tesla. I own their cars. I even own FSD for each of my cars. But I was not informed on why their new Semi might be badly designed for the use case they were designed for. Tesla designs some things stupidly (i.e. they aren't perfect) - for example, have you ever tried to change the air filter in a 2019 Model 3? Maybe you should support your post with why their take is invalid. Each of their takes has a reason why they hold their opinion. Yours does not.

spamizbad 4y ago

This mirrors some Facebook comments from my trucker buddy that had a few of the same complaints, although his take was a bit more optimistic (he thinks Tesla will fix the flaws in an updated model soon as he doesn't think this will sell.)

_ea1k 4y ago
Yeah, its not as if a cab redesign would be difficult if that ends up being an obstacle. TBH, though, I'm guessing it works better in practice than they let on. They've had a few years of testing, for better or worse.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I really think the difference is going to be long-haul vs short delivery trucks. Also remember the people buying the short-haul delivery trucks ain't the ones drivin' them.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    TBH, the Semi was designed with that thought in mind, for better and worse. I'm sure its a very different market from the owner operator. I can't imagine a single case where this would be practical for an owner operator at the moment, but I'd love to be corrected.

nluken 4y ago

Note that the author of this thread is comparing to European-style trucks. I am not a trucker so I would be interested to hear whether American-style trucks have similar flaws, or whether these are specific to the Tesla Semi.

pornel 4y ago
This sounds very much like a "designed in California" problem. Who would have thought about mud, frosted mirrors, border crossings…
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Maybe 'designed in the Bay Area'. If you take a look at a map you'll notice that California has significant mountain ranges and shares a border with Mexico.
- sgc 4y ago
  California is not all sunshine and beaches. They have been driving them over a mountain pass in the Sierra-Nevada between Reno and Fremont for years now. They are willfully ignoring problems, not unaware of them.
jjulius 4y ago
I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US and can vouch for a lot of these concerns, especially the placement of the driver in the center. Being able to easily reach out of the window easily is vital to that job.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  > I work adjacent to truck drivers in the US... Likewise. And you're correct.
rootusrootus 4y ago
The first American electric semi has a traditional layout, driver on the left, normal doors, normal ingress and egress. About the same as the European truck except it is not a cabover design and there is a nose in front of the windshield.

johnthuss 4y ago

"Drivers sits in the middle. This makes overtaking or looking ahead more difficult. But also makes it impossible to reach out of the window to pass the paperwork or to talk with the guy in the gatehouse when you enter a port or a factory or, say, a tollbooth." This one seems like the worst one of all these criticisms.

raldi 4y ago
Worst as in most salient or least?
function_seven 4y ago
My guess is that they needed to get the drag coefficient down, and did so by first raking the windshield back, then pinching the cab horizontally to get some more gains. That narrowing of the cab then led to the center-seat arrangement? Bonus being that you don't need to configure a LHD and RHD version of this truck for different markets.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- eastbound 4y ago
  Different markets can’t be addressed with the same truck anyway. Lights are different, mandatory equipment is different, EU trucks are limited cabin-inclusive, US trucks are cabin-exclusive, etc.
  - adwww 4y ago
    Lots and lots of LHD trucks serve the UK making daily cross channel trips, or even just based here full time from Dutch / Eastern European shipping firms.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      The UK was until very recently part of the same market, with no reason to change all their truck design rules after Brexit. The US/Europe scenario is not the same.

avgDev 4y ago

"Build around driver" - Tesla Designed by a tech bro that lives in a city and uses public transportation, also hates driving.

suzakus 4y ago
Loves public transport and hates driving? Not awfully likely in the US. Our public transport is fairly abysmal outside a few large cities.
- stonogo 4y ago
  Did you upgrade OP's words from "uses" to "loves" or did someone edit their comment?
  - suzakus 4y ago
    I can't remember now, sorry; I might have upgraded it mentally as a parallel to his use of the word hates. My bad!

wilg 4y ago

It would be more useful to have the perspective of someone who actually drives one. When people see a different design it’s easy to come up with lots of ways it’s different from what you’re used to but you can’t really see which problems have been solved in a different way than you might assume. Plus, it’s a day cab so it’s not surprising there’s no obvious place for a bed. Also, it’s strange that someone would think it’s a “rich boy’s toy” like rich boys are going to be buying semi trucks for fun.

littlestymaar 4y ago
Elon is the rich boy here.
- wilg 4y ago
  Yes, I understand. But it does not make sense for this to somehow be a toy for him.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    It makes sense if you interpret it as a toy he invented, not a toy for him to drive. Like saying this is just a vanity project to build something Elon likes the idea of, but isn't otherwise serious about fitting into the market it is aimed at.
    - wilg 4y ago
      Seems like a strange vanity project then. The new roadster would be a lot more fun!
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        Not that strange IMO. This is the same guy that wanted his own boring machine. I don't really have the impression that he's a sports car guy.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago

_ea1k 4y ago

I'm always a little skeptical of long form complaints that mix seemingly important things (papers please) with seemingly trivial preferences (he doesn't like where he'd doff his boots?). Its a day cab, not a sleeper, so that whole section of complaints is fairly irrelevant. OTOH, he makes some good points about the ergonomics of seat and door placement. But are these really the things that will drive or diminish sales? Put another way, imagine that you were a truck driver and a day cab would be sufficient. Now imagine one saved a few dozen $$ per day in fuel costs. Would you put up with not taking your shoes off where you want to in exchange for a few dollars? These are good insights, but the framing seems a bit hyperbolic.

osrec 4y ago
Why not just stick to the older, more convenient design?
- function_seven 4y ago
  The older design isn't as aerodynamic. And that's very important for a battery-powered truck.
  - lzaaz 4y ago
    We shouldn't switch to battery-powered vehicles until they can replace our current ICE vehicles.
    - cjdoc29 4y ago
      That's short-sighted. It's also possible to create a BEV that might not replace ICE vehicles for all use cases, but one that replaces the ICE vehicle in particular circumstances. A BEV fits into my lifestyle. So much so that I think owning an ICE vehicle would decrease my quality of life. I don't want to go to a gas station every week. I don't want to have to take my car in for tune-ups every year.
      - 4y ago

osrec 4y ago

I actually think this is a very good analysis. A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function. What really was interesting for me, was the fact that electric trucks from more established players exist already, but haven't really taken off. Maybe the Musk x-factor will allow Tesla to sell their truck where others have failed.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> A lot of Tesla vehicles feel like they value form over function. As far as I can tell, that would be all of them. And if rumors are true, Tesla might be about to escalate that to the next level with their bread-and-butter cars. Brave, or stupid, ask in a year.
- joshgachnang 4y ago
  What rumors are you talking about?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    That they're going to put the yoke on the Model 3/Y and remove the gear stalk. Like they did on the Model S.
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      Oh god. You can’t even turn that wheel all they way around to park, but hey! F1 is cool, and they don’t have a wheel.
    - yreg 4y ago
      Afaik the rumour[0] is a Semi wheel[1], not a Model S wheel. Would be surprised to see the yoke on TM3/Y, since the only purposes of that thing are to make TMS/X "cooler" and to make it easier to see the the display which TM3/Y lack. [0] - https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1084/tesla-s-2023-model-3-revamp-is-for-cost-cutting-not-a-redesign https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1084/tesla-s-2023-model-3-... [1] - https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/tesla-semi-production-interior.jpg https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/tesla-s...

Jonanin 4y ago

This may be a well informed take (or not), but it's hard to think he doesn't have an axe to grind when the first sentence is an information-free put down ending in a clown emoji. Would love to see a more neutral analysis.

porphyra 4y ago

The cab forward design that OP prefers is so much more sensible and practical than the "standard" cab design that's so common in the US. The Tesla Semi is more aerodynamic than its peers though. I wonder how you can improve the aerodynamics without having a narrow front or sloped windshield.

ErikCorry 4y ago
The cab-forward design is driven by Europe having a max length for trucks that includes the tractor, whereas in the US the max length doesn't include the tractor. For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon.
- Alupis 4y ago
  Which means more cabin room, which means more comfort for resting/sleeping/relaxing in addition to driving for folks that literally live in these vehicles for days or weeks at a time. > For this reason I don't expect to see the Tesla Semi in Europe soon I'm not expecting to see the Tesla Semi in the US soon either... it's a product in search of a problem.
bombcar 4y ago
The most "aerodynamic" shape is a teardrop, with a relatively flat front end, so they could probably do something with that. The "roll down window" thing is relatively easy to solve if they want to; you either make a seat that can slide to the side or redesign the front end. I expect a redesign of the cab when the truck isn't selling every single one they can make.
- three_seagrass 4y ago
  Not to mention skirts and tails on the trailer do more to improve aerodynamics than truck modifications. Still, every bit counts I guess.
  - bombcar 4y ago

mrguyorama 4y ago

I genuinely had the same thoughts. Just the fact that it was so clearly different showed that Tesla hadn't even talked to actual truckers about it. It's significantly more cramped than a roomy American style cab, and has very little room for the things a trucker might bring with them. Truckers also occasionally bring family with them on some trips, and this cab makes that kind of thing impossible.

alkonaut 4y ago

I agree with the complaints it’s not built for/around the driver. It’s built for range. Having a vertical windscreen just isn’t going to be efficient. The window deicing problem is worth solving to get the range of a streamlined front. The next iteration of this vehicle will likely solve many of these complaints (of which some seem poorly designed for no obvious reason) but I doubt it will ever have a vertical windscreen.

glogla 4y ago

It is not interesting just to see that the design is bad, but that it is getting worse over time. Model S was relatively normal car. Model X added crazy doors. Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors). The Semi has all these issues. And the Cybertruck is just entirely plain idiotic as a whole. It is as if the Tesla designers (or Musk micromanaging them) are getting more and more detached from reality.

wilg 4y ago
The Model 3/Y have many physical controls and is great to drive! The doors on the X are pretty silly though.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  The Model 3 today is alright. Would be significantly better with auto presenting door handles, a normal latch for the glovebox, an infrared sensor for rain, and the option to use old school cruise control. The thought that they might do something silly like a yoke and "automatic" gear selection in the Model 3 is a bit horrifying. That will push away a lot of the regular folks who just want their car to be a car. Hell, I'd like to be able to turn OFF autopilot on my model 3 altogether, because I'd happily give up lane keeping just for the ability to use old-school cruise control.
  - wilg 4y ago
    The door handles don't bug me, but they do confuse people the first few times. Couldn't care less about the glovebox. I don't keep anything I regularly use in there and I like that it has a PIN for secure storage and is otherwise invisible. Haven't tried the yoke so who the hell knows. I would never want to use cruise control instead of Autopilot (though it does have it, sort of). I assume by "old school" you mean not using the Autopilot speed logic?
Sebb767 4y ago
> Model 3 has tablet in the middle and no physical controls and bunch of other stupid decisions (but normal doors). Which is a dealbreaker for me as well, but people seem to accept and/or like it. The number of orders speak for themselves and, while I hear a lot of complaints from owners, the tablet is usually not one of them.

samwillis 4y ago

My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks. It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver. They may claim this is "designed around the driver", but the reality is it's designed around (eventually) making the driver redundant. Why design a cab to be optimised to the driver when you plan to remove them. No, you design around efficiency, that's what they have done here. That's not to say I believe that Tesla will achieve that, or that this can is well designed. I think it will be companies with a long history in the industry, understanding of their local markets, that will do this.

flutas 4y ago
> It seems to me that "backhaul" routs are the most likely to benefit from self driving, either with a person on board or not. Use a self driving truck, where you aren't paying a driver by the hour. It doesn't need to overtake, can drive at the most economical speed. It can stick to very well controlled and mapped routes. Restrict them to certain lanes on the road. Place depots at the exit/entry points to the backhaul where the cab is swapped out for one with a driver. Stage one of that is probably "Convoy Mode" as they call it. > “Convoy Mode,” which optimizes efficiency while allowing several uncrewed trucks to follow a lead, crewed vehicle. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla-semi-has-the-technical-capability-to-convoy-today/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/16/tesla-semi-has-the-technic... NOTE: not talking about feasibility one way or the other, just mentioning that they have claimed similar goals in the past.
reaperducer 4y ago
My expectation is that Teslas real play with the Semi is a long term plan for self driving trucks. Then Tesla has a lot of catching up to do. Other companies have been running driverless big rigs between Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio for at least two years.
4y ago

simondotau 4y ago

I’d be far more interested in hearing thoughts from someone who has actually driven the Semi.

themagician 4y ago

Tesla knows all this. This truck is for a very specific niche: owned fleets near two warehouses or within a 500 mile round trip from a major port. Basically: all the warehouses in the Inland Empire near LAX and Long Beach and the warehouses in the Newark area that service the NYC metro area. It has the potential to dramatically reduce costs for some routes/corridors. It will be a big hit in these areas. It will have a large impact on a very specific niche. There's nothing wrong with that. These aren't going to be used by independent truckers. It's not for them. It's for drivers making the same 80-100 mile or so trip from port to warehouse every day.

kelnos 4y ago
It snows in the NYC metro area, so all the complaints about how the truck is unsuitable for snow are still applicable.
spoils19 4y ago
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Thread is written by trucker who is making correct points to a design made in an office, but never consulted with an end user.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Jesus Christ
elijaht 4y ago
I don't see how that is relevant. Nearly all of the criticisms posed (maybe not the snow one?) would still be relevant to a driver in the situation you describe. This has nothing to do with range or even the fact that it's electric
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  While I largely agree with you, there are at least a subset of the complaints in the Twitter thread that are pretty inconsequential if the truck is only intended for < 500 mile routes (for example, the "no space for a bed" complaint).

a4isms 4y ago

I am not a trucker, so I can't comment on the veracity of TFA's claims. But this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt. A lot of the things that matter aren't necessarily obvious to the designer or engineer who knows little about the nuts and bolts of every field. The usual remedy is to either follow a design process that incorporates user viewpoints, or to hire people with direct experience in the field. Take the "wiping the mirrors" complaint. One design makes it easy to lean out the window and wipe the mirror by hand. Another design might make the mirrors retractible. If I read a complain that retracting the mirrors was unnecessary complexity, I would think "Hmm, maybe, but then again it's a tradeoff because the narrow cab is more aero and increases range." I'd have a feeling that the designers knew this was an important use case, but this person complaining doesn't like their solution. But it worries me that a number of use cases that seem quite obviously common even to a layperson... Are neglected outright. I don't get the impression that Tesla knew about all this and decided not to do anything about them, I get the impression that this is a company who thinks "design" is all about styling, and not about usability. Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs.

blagie 4y ago
My general design process: 1. Design it myself. Get my ideas on paper before I'm biased. 2. Review designs. See how other people did it. 3. Talk to experts. 4. Integrate ideas and build it. Most of my clever ideas turn out to be dumb at step #2 or #3, but a few pan out, and those have been important. In many cases, there is some kind of fusion too. It seems someone missed steps 2-4 here.
- V__ 4y ago
  That sounds intriguing. Can you talk about some success (and failures)?
  - blagie 4y ago
    No, since that would tie back to my identity. I use throw-away accounts online. When I upgrade my web browser, this account will disappear and a new one will appear. I have the level of fame where you almost certainly wouldn't recognize my name, but where most people (not just on HN) have heard of one project I created from scratch (to give an analogy, very few people would recognize the inventor of the Nerf gun, the Super Soaker, the touch screen, a popular TV show, or the iPod, but if you said "I'm the inventor of the ____," they'd know who you were). It takes about 30 seconds with Google my successes and failures to figure out who I am. I attribute that success to: 1. Being willing and able to talk to a large and diverse set of experts (and not just recognized ones; in the above example, an expert might be a trucker, rather than just a truck designer, and you want to talk to both, not to mention people who hire truckers, people who ship things, etc.). Finding something like an "expert trucker" is probably harder than you'd imagine; "expert trucker" isn't the same as "random trucker." 2. Being able to swallow my ego, ignore my ideas, and follow their advice. Most of my success was based on gluing together ideas that other people / products had in innovative combinations, and in being somehow effective at scouring the universe for good ideas.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

This seems to assume the Tesla semi should meet every demand from every kind of trucker, but it’s simply not meant to and no truck is perfect for every trip. The Tesla semi seems geared towards short haul rather than long. It’s range may sound somewhat long, but I suspect many of these will “return to dock” in the same day, charging in the same warehouse yard each day, and if not, within a small network of warehouses. It’s not meant to go interstate and roam far and wide, charge multiple times, then return to home base. Well, maybe it is. I just don’t have that impression. If Tesla’s not aware of how impractical that would be then the whole world is crazy. It seems like they do know though and these are intended to operate in relatively small networks where conditions are easier to control and anticipate.

fasthands9 4y ago

> And if you really want an electric truck, then just get Nikola, that uses Iveco Stralis cab, with the design perfected over half of century I honestly didnt know they are still shipping. Their numbers are very small (under 50 a quarter) which admittedly makes me feel like the rest of that post has some elements of bias/screed to it. Is it really a logical alternative to buy an EV truck from a bespoke manufacturer known for (criminally proven) fraud?

riffraff 4y ago
I thought it had been proven beyond doubt Nikola was a scam, I'm honestly surprised it's still active.
- zardo 4y ago
  I don't know if the whole company was a scam, but they did do 'a' scam, pretending they had a functioning truck when they didn't by rolling it down a hill.

faebi 4y ago

I do really wonder what the Euro-style Semi will look like. Will it be complete redesign or will the just replace the cabin?

S0und 4y ago

Valid points until he brought up Nikola as an example. A terrible example.

MBCook 4y ago
Why? He only brought it up for the cab shape. Is their cab problematic as well?
- oceliker 4y ago
  I think the point is that if you want to showcase the alternatives that work, don't pick the company whose founder has been convicted of fraud.
mwint 4y ago
Works great as long as your warehouses are all downhill from eachother.

andinaror 4y ago

AndrewStephens 4y ago

These criticisms all miss the point, assuming that this vehicle was designed for drivers to use to ship actual goods instead of investors to view and throw money at. I suspect this design is quite good at that.

InTheArena 4y ago

I'm guessing that this author is European. Just a guess because a lot of the criticism seem more applicable to Europe, as most of the complaints are ones that I have heard comparing a European cab over engine truck versus an American conventional truck. Also, there tend to be fewer situations where American drivers need to get out, except at rest stops and weigh stations. Weigh stations (from what I understand, not an expert in this field) are automated in the USA, while rest stops require disembarking. Cab over versus "Standard" almost always come down to the maximum length of a truck being determined with the cab in Europe, and without in the USA. The vastly shorter trip duty length is also a factor - you get in and out much more frequently in Europe.

jedberg 4y ago

The Tesla cars have strange things in them too where it seems like they were designed by people who don't use the cars for work. The prime example being the lack of coat hangers in the car. People who use their car for work often have to carry dry cleaning or uniforms or other hanging items in the car. They eventually made one you can buy as an add on, but it was strange that it didn't have them. Also the whole tablets thing (also mentioned here). The cars have the same problem -- it's really hard to do anything by touch and they are always glowing at you. This sucks for everyone but especially people who use their car for work and most likely are trying to make a call or do other things they probably shouldn't be doing while driving.

potatochup 4y ago
What the designers/engineers want (convenience, ease of use) is often sidelined in favor of making money (keeping mfg costs low, dealing with supply chain issues)
moocow01 4y ago
They do technically have coat hangers in back but they pop out.
bagels 4y ago
My Model 3 has coat hanger hooks in it. Maybe only older or specific ones lack them?
- joenathanone 4y ago
  My OG 2018 Model 3 and my 2022 X both have coat hangers and I use them daily, so my dress shirt doesn't get wrinkled by my seatbelt.

impulser_ 4y ago

This seems to be a trend with the latest Telsa future products. They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them. The Cybertruck is another example of this.

danans 4y ago
> They don't seem to be engineered for the actual user, but engineered for marketing to people that wont use them. The original genius of Tesla's approach is exactly that: maximizing form over function to drive the adoption of electric cars. Maximizing desirability, not utility, has been central. In this way, they are really not so different from other luxury carmakers, who also sacrifice daily utility for form in their cars. As much as the world needs an electric Ford Taurus or Honda Accord, as Nissan discovered with the Leaf, that approach didn't move people to open their wallets to the same degree. > The Cybertruck is another example of this. The Cybertruck is an example of applying the above approach to create a caricature of pickup-truck utility that markets well to the Cybertruck's target demographic: faux-survivalist men with lots of disposable income. An actual utilitarian EV pickup truck would be something smaller like a Ford Maverick or a Toyota Tacoma with a simpler body that works with lots of standard aftermarket parts. I really hope Ford follows the gargantuan expensive F150 Lighting with something smaller and more sensible.

Havoc 4y ago

That makes an alarming amount of sense

Melatonic 4y ago

Lot of these are good points but I think we would really need to have the guy actually test one of the Tesla trucks to know. The center position thing, for example, does sound shitty. But how do we know that the driver could not simply lean to the side temporarily to reach out the window? That seems like it would not be THAT hard. The tablets though I agree - it is ridiculous that all Tesla vehicles rely on them so heavily. If that tablet breaks you now have a fairly useless vehicle. Just lazy design at this point and dangerous. What they really need is the Saab night mode design - that was super cool!

quonn 4y ago
If the touchscreen breaks you get a replacement. What if the break pedal or anything else breaks? Same issue. Additionally the car drives fine without the touchscreen. You can test this by rebooting. Sure, the speedometer is missing so it‘s not exactly great, but it would be enough to get to a safe position.

fooker 4y ago

Until this month, the primary mode of criticizing the Tesla Semi was demonstrating infeasibility of electric trucks with misunderstood high school physics. Now, it is just about driver convenience. What’s next? Upholstery perhaps?

mlindner 4y ago

This reminds me of something like what was written when various other Tesla models came out with tons of people complaining about the design, only for them to go on to sell extremely well. The vehicle had been in testing with real drivers for years. This is one of the longest development periods for a new Tesla vehicle ever. I’m much more likely to trust that over someone on Twitter who starts his first comment with a clown emoji and makes large parts of the post about Elon. He won’t buy it but plenty others will.

mgrthrow 4y ago

I love how many comments here are, "I have no domain expertise, but these seem like nitpicks". If a user provides feedback like this, listen. Getting this sort of detail from a user about design decisions is invaluable. They know the ergonomic setup they need, what works and doesn't, and they will have insights a non domain expert simply can't.

beeboop 4y ago
A truck driver who isn't the intended audience for the vehicle and doesn't understand the engineering decisions that went into the product. For every con he lists there's a con to the opposite approach. There isn't clear cut right and wrong here. It's just different use cases.
- mgrthrow 4y ago
  ^ case in point.
- thebytefairy 4y ago
  Who is the intended audience if not a truck driver?
  - cypress66 4y ago
    The company that buys it.
    - foepys 4y ago
      In times of worker shortages, if your workers hate your equipment, they will simply leave for a competitor who values them more.

soheil 4y ago

Driver in the middle gives better visibility and command and control of the road. I don't understand the negativity here when the guy presumably a truck driver's tweet 1. ends up on top of hacker news! 2. complains about something he hasn't test driven or experienced. Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road. I can't stop wondering if these are coordinated attacks on Musk, let's give the truck a chance before piling on. If other Tesla cars are a guide it will be a game changer. [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12019673/mclaren-f1-center-seating-position/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12019...

mentalpiracy 4y ago
You're here dismissing competent design critiques with the claim that this guy doesn't have the right experiences, therefore opinion = null. Can you describe your experience driving F1 cars in a mixed-traffic highway environment?
- soheil 4y ago
  McLaren F1 != F1 cars I don't have experience with that and neither does he with the Semi, that's the point. He hasn't been in that truck, all these armchair theorizing are just that and kinda bizarre as most car reviewers typically drive the car/truck before giving their opinion as no one would take them seriously otherwise. It's doubly bizarre to see this on top of Hackernews.
kennend3 4y ago
> Look at McLaren F1 driver seating position [1] probably the best car ever made in terms of maneuverability, control and command of the road. How often does a F1 driver stop at a mandatory weigh station and need to hand over paperwork for his load? In case you are unaware, this is actually rather common for truck drivers. All along the highway systems there are mandatory truck stop weigh stations. I'd say the points he raises are valid, while your comparison to the "f1" is meaningless.
- 4y ago

redox99 4y ago

Most of these flaws are because Tesla optimized for efficiency/range/tco, and not actual driver comfort. After all, the driver is not the one buying the truck. They probably figured they wanted that shape for maximum efficiency. However maybe that narrow shape forced them to go with the center driver and all the things the author dislikes. The logistics of just slapping a couple screens are much simpler than designing and manufacturing an interior with physical buttons. Also they'll surely plan to drop those mirrors anyway, and use the screens as mirrors (which solves his cleaning complain, cheaper truck, more efficient, etc).

justinhj 4y ago

There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture. Not to discredit his opinion as a truck driver but I’m pretty sure his mind was made up when he saw the brand.

defterGoose 4y ago
> There is really no easier path to high engagement on a tweet than dumping on an Elon venture. Twitter EULA update incoming...

Waterluvian 4y ago

I love this thread so much. Every issue he mentions is obvious once pointed out. This is a great example of something I repeat to myself all the time, particularly because I find myself surrounded by people who don’t: I might be clever and perceptive but I do not know better than the user.

qwertox 4y ago

> Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it. This is generally an issue. I really don't understand how car manufacturers believe that a touchscreen is a good interface in a car where you often need to look at the road and touch the controls in order to feel at which button or knob you are. I'd rather have high quality resistive touchscreens where the surface can be touched but a good degree of pressure needs to be applied in order to execute a command. Ideally it would have some sort of vibration feedback when I cross a boundary between buttons.

quonn 4y ago
It‘s fine in practice because most things are automatic or only needed when parked and also because the lane keeping and adaptive cruise control aka Autopilot makes a very brief distraction less of a problem in most situations. There are with two exceptions: - Opening the glove box. This should be possible by pressing the box, it could visually look the same. Instead it requires drilling into a touchscreen menu. - Music pause/like/seek. The buttons are too small to easily hit them while driving.
- Dah00n 4y ago
  Moving the air vents around being 3 menus deep seems like a no go but some designer still made it.
  - flutas 4y ago
    > Moving the air vents around being 3 menus deep seems like a no go but some designer still made it. What model is that on? M3/Y at least you literally just swipe up from the bottom and there's your entire cars hvac controls, including air vents.

Animats 4y ago

At the smaller end of electric trucks, here's a driver evaluation of the Rivian delivery truck made for Amazon.[1] This looks like it was designed by time and motion study people. It's optimized for a very specific job. Door control and access are all really easy as long as you have the key fob on you. The door to the package area opens and closes automatically, so when the driver is out of the vehicle, nothing is stealable. There are big screens, and they're showing the next few stops the driver is expected to make. If you take your foot off the accelerator, you come to a stop. Parking brake is automatic. It's boring, but useful. Tesla did not go that route. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFz1xqp3us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFz1xqp3us

slimebot80 4y ago

"Also, even those small tablets are annoying as hell at night, as even if you turn them black, they still tend to glow." Tablet screens in cars and trucks is a staggering thing to me. Just reeks of design for the sake of impressing people and getting sales, with poor judgement of usability. Give me a basic physical dial or switch any day. Don't make me look away from the road. Allow me to use muscle memory and get physical feedback. What a nightmare path this has gone down.

larodi 4y ago

I love this article so much.

diebeforei485 4y ago

It needs a narrow "nose" for aero and range, which necessitates a center position seat. Also the author should be aware that Nikola trucks are vaporware, and the video they showed of their truck was just rolling downill.

coding123 4y ago

The "hallway to a door" is one of the worst mistakes in living space layouts. They really designed the cab to turn heads rather than be functional.

etempleton 4y ago

This is the problem with Tesla in a nutshell. The underlying tech is great, they just honestly aren’t great at making vehicles because they insist on throwing out everything about making a vehicle that has been learned over the past century. In a few instance this has led to interesting improvements, but a lot of times it has led to compromised vehicles. The problem Tesla has is everyone is catching up on the tech and in 5-10 years, with diminished tech advantage, how many people are choosing a Tesla?

quonn 4y ago
10 years is a long time. Many of their choices are to drive costs down and that will give Tesla a competitive advantage.

syngrog66 4y ago

I'm no trucker, but I've been doing design analysis for decades. I love this guy's takedown because when I studied the Tesla Semi cab design I also had about 5 of these damning observation points too. I hoped they had some Expert in charge at Tesla and simply Knew Better. I suspect instead they fell prey to the trap of min-maxing some set of goal metrics. Where they make design choices to hit their target numbers, no matter what it takes, even if it causes other qualities to go to hell. Shame on Musk. Because its the sort of thing his time would have been better focused on, than his (also erratic and bumbling) Twitter takeover. As CEO the buck stops with him.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jupp0r 4y ago

Sounds like this person has never used a conventional (non cabover) truck and most of his points (minus the tablet) also apply to them?

nemo44x 4y ago

Isn’t the point of the semi that the driver isn’t really necessary? They’re there for compliance until full self driving on interstates doesn’t need them? Even things like passing paperwork - isn’t the idea that the truck will communicate with another system? There’s been a lot of “Musk is such an idiot” content recently when his track record clearly shows he’s not. Many mocked the Model S until it was obvious it was a hit.

xyzelement 4y ago

Product manager here (nothing to do with transportation). It seems like the Tweet thread and some comments here are complaining about the design tradeoffs without considering the use case. From what I see from comments in this thread, these trucks are meant for pretty specific short haul use cases, with consistent routes and perhaps the origin and destination points being owned by the same company as the truck (eg Pepsi, FedEx) So for example, if this truck carries packages between two FedEx facilities in the NYC area, its chances of encountering a cash-only toll booth are zero, and the company can use electronic records systems that obviate the need to present paperwork (in fact, I bet FedEx does this already anyway.) Likewise I believe many if not all weigh stations in this area are electronic as well. So it may seem superficially that Tesla traded off one thing (driver comfort, by forcing them to get out of the cab more often) for another (energy efficiency due to aerodynamic design) but in reality it maybe that in these use cases, the driver won't be getting out of the cab anyway for reasons above, so it's basically "free mileage." I can make similar guesses as to why some of the other complaints don't actually hurt anything, or maybe are worth it. Eg: let's say there are 3 times a year the driver has to get out of the cab to clean the mirrors. Maybe doing that 3x a year is well worth the increased energy efficiency of every single mile this truck drives in it's life.

tptacek 4y ago
This is the second comment on this thread that I've seen make this argument. It doesn't hold up. Very few of the complaints in this article have anything to do with long-haul drives. The center console seat is a baffling decision, and toll booths --- which happen on short-haul drives! --- are just one of the complaints.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  I literally talked about the toll booth case in my post. I don't remember the last time I paid cash toll personally, and I used the specific example of the NYC region where they don't exist. If you are going to operate the truck in a region with tons of cash toll booths then probably this one isn't for you.

runlevel1 4y ago

The Teamsters union, who represent a big chunk of the truckers in the US, have lobbied against Tesla's self-driving truck efforts in the past.[^1] I'll be interested to see if the Teamsters intensify their opposition to Tesla with these now hitting the streets -- even if they're lacking any self-driving abilities. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/business/dealbook/teamsters-union-tries-to-slow-self-driving-truck-push.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/business/dealbook/teamste...

InTheArena 4y ago
The unions have had Tesla in this sights for far more reasons for a long time. I’m not sure it will make any difference.
- runlevel1 4y ago
  After further reading, I've learned that the membership is much smaller than I had thought. The Teamsters Freight division, which includes other roles like dockworkers and mechanics, seems to only have 75,000 members.[^1] In 2019, the US Census Bureau reported there were 3.5M truckers. So you're probably right. [1]: https://www.teamstersjc42.com/about/trades/ https://www.teamstersjc42.com/about/trades/ [2]: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/america-keeps-on-trucking.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/06/america-keeps...

pedalpete 4y ago

This is a great example of where the buyer is different from the user, and the design was focused on the buyer. Tesla focused on reducing operating costs and down time for these trucks with features like stronger, possibly break-proof, windows. In truck fleets, do the drivers care about these things? I'm sure some of these issues will be addressed in future versions, but for now, Tesla is focused on selling to fleets that will buy hundreds of trucks for their drivers, not the business where the trucker is the owner.

askvictor 4y ago

That very last post with the Colani truck https://twitter.com/TOrynski/status/1600978542891630592 https://twitter.com/TOrynski/status/1600978542891630592 - is too similar to the Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car.

entropicgravity 4y ago

Bike shedding gone wild here. Move along.

eternalban 4y ago

That Colani truck was pretty wild so i had to google it. Here is the man, Luigi Colani, "The modern Leonardo"* https://www.colani.com/ https://www.colani.com/ This thing is wild: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/LuigiColani-DesignTrucks.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/LuigiCol... * but did he blush when he wrote this?

djexjms 4y ago

I am a CDL holder who used to do long haul trucking. I haven't had a chance to get behind the wheel of these vehicles yet, but the only criticism that I feel holds weight here is the one about not being able to get the light levels on the tablets to a non-distracting level during night driving. Hopefully that can be addressed with further development. The door being behind the driver's seat is a bit odd, and I anticipate it causing some confusion during traffic stops, but if these vehicles attain any decent market share, people will get used to it.