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Ask HN: Working in a VR Headset?

• jayd16 4y ago
  With the Quest Pro I could actually see the feasibility. Just good enough to code in comfortably. The color passthrough means you can actually have coffee at your desk among a million small things it adds.
  • fariszr 4y ago
    According to Linus, the Text is still not clear enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1sps72_sE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1sps72_sE
    • 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
      Could you quote where he says that? I watched this the other day and I recall him saying that text was very crisp with a hint of color on the edges. He said the previous gen was not up to snuff.
      • georgewsinger 4y ago
        The Quest Pro is a great headset in many ways, but it only offers 10% higher pixel density than the Quest 2 (which was already pretty low). For comparison: it offers 22.69 PPD. The human eye can distinguish up to 60 PPD.
        • 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1sps72_sE&t=11m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1sps72_sE&t=11m40s He basically gushes about clarity. Op: "According to Linus, the Text is still not clear enough"
    • jayd16 4y ago
      I'm sure it varies from person to person but its only going to get better.
• chrisfrantz 4y ago
  I tried with the Quest Pro. It’s cool to see the giant screens and set things up, but the pixel density and resolution is really not there yet. It’s like working off of a 65 inch 480p TV.
• mellosouls 4y ago
  Some previous discussions: "I Spent Hundreds of Hours Working in VR" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978036 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041 The latter discussing this classic "Working from Orbit" article (below) has been linked before, but it's from a clear fan, which is not necessarily representative. But it demonstrates it works for some - and that's with the Quest 2. https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d385 https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d... I haven't tried it myself extensively, but personally I think the tech and software is not quite there yet for full comfort and practicality (eg text legibility) - at least on a plug-and-play level - for the average interested user.
• cjbprime 4y ago
  Have you ever used VR and tried to read small text? Feels like we're still far from from minimum viable resolution for that to me.
  • jayd16 4y ago
    You won't get virtual retina displays with currently affordable hardware but something that feels similar to a large 1080p display is achievable today. The plus side is you get as many as you want.
  • georgewsinger 4y ago
    This is why VR pixel density (PPD) is so important for VR computing. It's the #1 thing that impacts how legible text and other fine details are when working. Here's a list of headsets for comparison: - Valve Index: 11.07 PPD - Quest II: 20.58 PPD - Quest Pro: 22.6 PPD (In full disclaimer I'm affiliated with SimulaVR, and we're working on a headset with 35.5 PPD.)
    • williamcotton 4y ago
      What’s the PPD equivalent for a recent MacBook Pro at a distance of “sitting on your lap”?
      • kanetw 4y ago
        Well in excess of human eye resolution, around 100 PPD at 2ft distance with a 28 degree FOV. Peak human eye res is 60 PPD.
• yrgulation 4y ago
  My main issue is using a keyboard while in vr. Feels like a keyboard that senses when fingers are near would be useful, so you know what key you are about to press. Most of the time i can tell particularly if i am used to that keyboard but sometimes its trial and error. That or accessible hand gloves. I suppose brain impulse reading is still far off as that would solve most input issues with vr.
  • rabf 4y ago
    The quest now has a feature whre it can passthrough a user defined portion of the bottom of the screen so that you can see your desk while in VR. You can also passthrough physical items such as just a keyboard and a cup or everything bar your virtual screens in apps such as immersed.
    • yrgulation 4y ago
      Hmm thats interesting, thanks for sharing. Will give it a try.
    • jimmySixDOF 4y ago
      As evidenced by the keyboard feedback so far, the experience has been upgraded several times in Quest 2. Currently there are 2 fully supported keyboards the Apple and a Logitech K830. With these you get full tracking of the physical board and a realtime perfect overly of hand fingers while typing so it is no different than irl. Poor lightning or poor contrast will degrade the experience. Supported by Infinate Office, Immersed, and vSpatial. Other keyboards are visible in passthrough so in Q2 this is not perfect but useable and should be much better in Pro although still not as good as using the main supported keyboards and more are being added at least in Infinate Office / Workrooms. Good luck I think the benefits today outweigh the difficulty involved.
• lm28469 4y ago
  > Is it comfortable for longer periods of time? Absolutely no > How is it on the eyes? Like staring at a tv from 4cm away for extend periods of time
  • gpm 4y ago
    This just isn't true, optics really do work, the focal point is not close to your face and it doesn't feel or effect you like the screen is close to your face in anyway.
    • lm28469 4y ago
      I'd give all my belongings to anyone who can work full time for a year with a VR headset instead of screens and who wouldn't complain a single time about it I've used VR headsets, nothing is comfortable after even an hour of use, we're just not designed for that
      • mellosouls 4y ago
        See the article linked in my comment - before you first posted here - for information on who to send your belongings to.
      • terafo 4y ago
        I don't think it is possible to not complain about ANY modern development system a single time in a year.
      • zmmmmm 4y ago
        > I've used VR headsets, nothing is comfortable after even an hour of use, we're just not designed for that There seems to be something specific about VR that invites people to vastly over-extrapolate their personal experience. I find it really difficult to believe you've tried the Quest Pro or NReal Air [0]. Current hardware have lots of other flaws but what you mention (comfort) is mostly solved for most people (there are always exceptions). [0] https://www.nreal.ai/air/ https://www.nreal.ai/air/
      • 4y ago
• stuckinhell 4y ago
  It's not good enough yet. The strain on the eyes is apparently really bad in VR. My husband needs glasses again due to doing VR 1-2hr a day.
  • PretzelPirate 4y ago
    From working in VR or playing games in VR? I spend just as much time in VR as your husband and it hasn't hurt my eyesight at all, but I'm not spending that time reading. I'm interested in how you were able to determine that VR was the cause vs age or just eye strain from using a regular screen in suboptimal conditions.
    • SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      I don’t believe GP’s assertion. High more likely the the husband is 40-50 years old and at the point where he had vision changes or the focus muscles in the eyes aren’t working as well and he would need reading glasses… with or without VR use.
    • stuckinhell 4y ago
      He plays a lot flatscreen to vr conversions. I'm guessing it was VR, because after the VR sessions he said his eyes feel tired.
  • majani 4y ago
    There's just so many insurmountable physical limitations to VR. I wonder what Facebook are thinking will mitigate for that
• mdp2021 4y ago
  I use the Epson Moverio (1280x720 stereo): comfortable reading is around the dozen lines of text. Surely this tells you that you would go in the opposite direction of the desired one. They are excellent for other applications - as a memex-while-moving, for example. They do not replace a station.
• malux85 4y ago
  Physically it doesn’t work: The headset is too clunky and heavy still, after a few hours you get a sore neck and I have trouble with lack of airflow on my skin (where it contacts my face gets sweaty and irritated after long periods) More importantly: the resolution is too small. Using an IDE to edit text inside VR technically works, but the font size has to be so huge because the resolution inside is so poor, coding becomes an exercise in scrolling and navigation rather than an exercise in problem solving. I’m the same as you, I like being portable, and when I was a travelling tech nomad for 2 years it meant hauling two monitors in the car everywhere. One other option that actually worked well was getting a good quality 1080p projector and mounting it on a camera stand, I used this for a bit instead of monitors at the hotels/Airbnbs and it worked well, although that’s just a single 1080p monitor
  • ilaksh 4y ago
    Do you realize that there are many different headsets, some very new, different resolutions and different types of lenses? Because you seem to have taken one experience and written off the entire concept indefinitely.
  • exodust 4y ago
    > good quality 1080p projector Good idea on the road. And you could set up two projectors for two giant monitors. Although one projector and laptop should be enough for most needs. Laser diode projectors in particular are bright and uniform enough to project onto a clean wall. There's also the option of short-throw or regular projector. Flicker-free and reliable. Turning your hotel room wall into a big screen makes sense. I would definitely choose a portable projector over VR if I needed the equivalent of a large monitor on the road. The other thing is, you can have the screen on and do "normal life things" like read physical documents, gaze out the window, use your mobile phone, pace around the room, scratch your head, play with your hair as you think... and your screen remains stationary and separate.
• ge96 4y ago
  Depends on software, was messing around with SimulaVR. It's cool though needs work. I was using the Index it could be better on resolution/text focusing. I would not use it for productivity because it's a new environment/more distracting than useful. Also turning your head a lot to look at things. I like my curved ultra wide monitor. When the physical SimulaOne comes out I'll try it out again that one is not tethered/better quality eye display.
  • georgewsinger 4y ago
    Thanks for your support. RE resolution being low on the Valve Index: we absolutely agree :] The Simula One offers ~3x higher pixel density than the Valve Index, and 50% higher density than the Quest Pro. This dramatically impacts the extent to which you have to turn your head to look at things.
• jedberg 4y ago
  You can comfortably work in VR, but the trick is that you can't use any of the headsets as is. There are upgrades that you really need: A better head strap, ideally one with an adjustment knob at the back to easily loosen and tighten the headset. Also one with an extra battery that both gives you longer unplugged time but more importantly balances the headset front to back. And a better headset/face interface. You can get one that is much softer and thicker, which puts less pressure on the face and moves the screens a few extra mm away. They also have vented interfaces, which help cut down on the problem of getting hot face. And lastly, you know how all the experts advise that when you're working you stop and take a break to look away from your screens every 20 minutes or so? It's more important in VR to heed that advice. All you have to do is slip off the headset (you got the easy to adjust one that just slides right off, right?), take ten seconds to look at something far away our out the window, and then put it back on and keep working. If you do all that, there are a lot of great products out that that will give you great virtual monitors and keyboards.
  • clolege 4y ago
    It looks like they put extra effort into making the Meta Quest Pro comfortable. Do you think those straps would need replacing? If so, do such straps already exist?
    • jedberg 4y ago
      From the pictures is does look like they integrated some of the most common upgrades, but I haven't seen one in person yet, so I can't say for sure. But I can see they sell an upgraded facial interface that is billed as "full light blocking", which usually means thicker and softer, so they probably at least have that accessory. I doubt any other accessories exist yet, since it's too new and not a big enough market.
      • IceWreck 4y ago
        I have used both and I can say that the Quest Pro is so much more comfortable than the Quest 2.
      • 4y ago
• throwaway413 4y ago
  I question if any of these other commenters have actually tried the Quest Pro yet and specifically with 1) Horizon Workrooms and 2) a mac and 3) a supported tracked keyboard from apple or Logitech. I was a complete Meta disbeliever and long time Quest owner, having put a few dozen hours into working in Immersed last year before putting it down and accepting it wasn’t good enough. Fast forward to last weekend, give it a try with the setup described above instead. Proceeded to do a 9hr shift fully in VR. Went out, got the Pro, and now I am all in. We are there. Give it a shot, you can always return it right? Also +1 to everything jedberg said in their comment, great advice.
  • DividableMiddle 4y ago
    can you post screenshots?
• clolege 4y ago
  > I am comfortable with at least two 27" monitors. I embraced a single-monitor workflow early in my career after experimenting and finding that having multiple monitors often makes me less productive than just switching workspaces with ⌘+tab. Now it's extended to a single-laptop workflow that's given me incredible flexibility to travel and move around the office. When do people really need multiple monitors? My only guesses are if they're using Windows, or have a really short feedback loop workflow between two apps that are too big/awkward to share a screen? Which, I guess OP could be in both boats.
  • wazzaps 4y ago
    It's nice to have 3+ source files + documentation open at once
  • colinmhayes 4y ago
    I like being able to read both screens at the same time. I can type on one while reading off the other.
    • clolege 4y ago
      I've only ever found this to be effective when I'm typing what I'm reading verbatim. Are you able to type something other than you're reading? How do you scroll?
      • jonasdegendt 4y ago
        Alt/Super-tab + page down if I had to guess. I work on a single high resolution monitor and have a similar workflow, that's how I do it.
    • CharlesW 4y ago
      FWIW, one can also do this comfortably with a single HiDPI display.
  • D13Fd 4y ago
    Totally agree. If you have a reasonable window snapping feature via an app or the OS, one large monitor works best IMO. I like having the two windows right next to each other without two bezels in between. I also like the flexibility of positioning things anywhere.
• gotrythis 4y ago
  I like it. I setup a login just for working in VR. I get MUCH more done as I'm totally distraction-free, and it's much better for my neck, as I'm looking at the screens in front of me, instead of down at my laptop. Looking down at my laptop for years has become a source of chronic pain, and working in VR removes it. Setup is a Macbook Air M1, Quest 2, elite strap, and over-the ear headphones. I use Immersed, which is free, and put up a big screen in the middle to work on, with two narrow screens on either side for reference material.
  • thunky 4y ago
    > Looking down at my laptop for years has become a source of chronic pain Why not use an external monitor at eye level? Or elevate the laptop and use an external keyboard.
    • gotrythis 4y ago
      Because I can do VR anywhere with multiple screens and bigger screens. I also have a large 4k curved monitor on a high quality arm on my standing desk, but I prefer working in VR from my couch. :-)
• aljungberg 4y ago
  I have tried it. Working in VR is much better than I expected it would be, with the right equipment. Still, I quit after a while mainly because of the quality of text rendering. It is so much better than it used to be, but still not good enough, at least not for me. I also found it surprisingly frustrating that I couldn’t see the keyboard. Every time I took my hands off it I had to do this blind search for it and get my fingers back to the right starting position. Symbols I don’t know how to touch type because they are rarely used was also more frustrating than I would have thought.
  • clolege 4y ago
    What headset did you try? I imagine that text rendering would improve with the quality of the screens, which have been getting better.
    • aljungberg 4y ago
      I used the Quest 2. It wasn’t just the hardware though, something about the software too. The “main” display was a reasonably sharp and almost retina like. But the other displays were unable to keep up with that level of quality. Not enough bandwidth? Video encoding or decoding CPU bound? Not sure what it was. This was using Immersed
• tchock23 4y ago
  It would be great if people posting opinions in this thread could share which headsets they are basing their opinion on. Many seem to be discounting it entirely without qualifying their comments with the headset and tech setup used…
• me551ah 4y ago
  It's hard to wear a VR headset for long periods. I use one(Quest 2) for gaming quite a bit, and the bulk gives you a bit of strain after a couple of hours of constant use.
  • ilaksh 4y ago
    Does that mean it's hard to use any headset, or hard to use that one? Have you tried Quest Pro or Vive Flow?
• gravenimage 4y ago
  I worked for about a month using the Immersed app and an Oculus 2. I judged it workable for me, but probably near the borderline. The positives were that the software generally worked (modulus some bugs), and I could code, attend Teams meetings (as an avatar with a VR camera) and have multiple monitors. Interestingly, Teams meetings with the other participants on a virtual monitor about 2 metres away were very noticeably less psychologically stressful. (I suspect some evolutionary/neurological thing about faces in a monitor 60cms away). The resolution was fine, but not great. I wear spectacles (slightly near-sighted, a bit too much to drive without) and the headset was comfortable enough. With the Oculus 2 the pass-thru was rubbish, so touch-typing and a tidy desk vital. The negatives were that a good wifi connection to the laptop was necessary; the battery-life on the headset meant I had to trail a wire across to keep it on for >2 hours; it was slightly sweaty (I didn't get the serious discomfort other people have experienced); the default headband wasn't great; and in the end it wasn't better than my physical multimonitor setup. I seem also to not suffer from VR-sickness (or motion sickness for that matter), but YMMV greatly.
  • clolege 4y ago
    > Interestingly, Teams meetings with the other participants on a virtual monitor about 2 metres away were very noticeably less psychologically stressful. That's fascinating, but it makes sense. I wonder how much of "Zoom fatigue" is caused by feeling you need more personal space, and could be mitigated by just having the screen be (or seem to be) the distance away that a normal human would. You could probably get pretty far with floating screens rather than the whole avatar thing. They'd all still be staring at you when they talk to each other though.
  • KMnO4 4y ago
    > Teams meetings with the other participants on a virtual monitor about 2 metres away were very noticeably less psychologically stressful. How were you projected? Was everyone else looking at a person gazing vaguely in the direction of the camera and obscured by a bulky headset?
    • gravenimage 4y ago
• WithinReason 4y ago
  There is a company called Simula that makes a headset specifically for work. I know about them because Meta subpoena'd them a month ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x293SiEdv4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x293SiEdv4M
  • edmundsauto 4y ago
    Simula looks like it’s pre-order only, do you know if they have actually shipped units? I couldn’t tel if the preorder is for their first device or an iteration, it looked like their first serious foray.
    • capableweb 4y ago
      Additionally, it would be great if one could try the software with already owned VR headsets, without having to buy their hardware before.
      • abc3354 4y ago
        Their software is open source : https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula However it looks like they are more focused on hardware than software right now
        • georgewsinger 4y ago
          Yep, you can try out our software at https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula on the HTC Vive and Valve Index platforms. If you don't have one of those headsets, there are some videos of people (whom we have no affiliation with) on YouTube testing it out: https://youtu.be/8gVLF8SnK84?t=424 https://youtu.be/8gVLF8SnK84?t=424 Here's also (a pretty old) video of me hacking on Simula, in Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI. It's also true that we're more focused on hardware right now. We plan on reverting more towards software development in 2023. For more details: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/issues/180#issuecomment-1190959166 https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/issues/180#issuecomment-1... Some things we have planned to implement include VR window tiling and some other UI stuff.
• chiflando 4y ago
  Not too much on the usability, but here is a Common Lisp REPL in VR: https://invidious.dhusch.de/watch?v=eMsMm_q-akI https://invidious.dhusch.de/watch?v=eMsMm_q-akI
• rspoerri 4y ago
  I use an oculus quest 2 with the battery headstrap to play online shooters when the beamer is used by my gf. It works surprisingly well with vrdesktop. I still prefer playing on the beamer, but without the space i would consider it a quite good solution.
  • ajolly 4y ago
    What is a beamer?
    • the_sleaze_ 4y ago
      It's a projector, I assume he means his girlfriend is using the huge screen so he uses the quest as the backup "huge" screen.
• clolege 4y ago
  What I will say is that it seems quite unsexy. I would be quite hesitant to use it in public, especially in the office.
• clnq 4y ago
  > Does anyone have any useful experience to share on working in a VR headset? Is it comfortable for longer periods of time? How is it on the eyes? I bought the entry level Quest 2 to evaluate the feasibility of this about a year ago. These are some of my insights (that might not apply 100% to Quest Pro): - The resolution was too poor to comfortably read anything on two displays arranged about the same way as two horizontal 27" monitors side by side. This ultimately killed the whole effort. - Without good passthrough, using a keyboard and mouse is a bit difficult. - There is finger tracking, but I found the controllers to be more accurate. So I needed to keep the controllers on my desk. - There is a bit of motion sickness that either goes away after a few days of use or reduces a bit. For me, I could never get over the motion sickness. But it wasn't very bad after a couple days of use. - The screen door effect was very noticeable for me on Quest 2. - It was possible to up the resolution and refresh rate of Quest 2 using developer options on the PC with some third-party software. With that, the headset might become uncomfortably warm to wear. - The WiFi 6 wireless VR was surprisingly much better than expected. But it will definitely not be a good experience with typical hotel Wifi - not even close. I was pretty happy to spend about £300 on a Quest 2 to try it for work. I then sold it for about £250. £50 to try this work mode for a few weeks was worth it. I chose not to go with VR for work at the time. I would suggest trying it yourself in some way similar to this. Perhaps not buying it but borrowing someone's VR headset for a bit, or going to one of the VR venues and just seeing how comfortable it is and what kind of resolution you might get?
  • boyband6666 4y ago
    This is pretty much my experience. Based on the 'working from orbit' article I bought a Quest 2, but just couldn't find a way of working. I have a 1920x1200 in the centre now, and to each side a 19" 1600x1200 (same pixel density, vertical height, gives a level of wraparoudn with 3 monitors). The main thing was I couldn't make the virtual screen be as good as the physical ones, and being able to see to type - I'm not at the complete touch type level - especially without reference points. The difference is I haven't sold mine, it is still here to try some VR gaming, which I also haven't got roudn to get. My summary is I was impressed with what the technology can do, but it's not a replacement if you have a well set up desk.
  • 4y ago
• lumost 4y ago
  something I've wondered, how does any of this work with glasses/vision correction?
  • ilaksh 4y ago
    Depends on the headset or glasses. Quest Pro designed for glasses. Quest 2 can work but you need spacers if you use it a lot otherwise they get scratched. Anyway I would consider Quest Pro or Pico 4 or something new rather than Quest 2.
• IceWreck 4y ago
  With the quest 2, no. With the pro, I'm inclined to say yes. I have the Q2 at home but I've only used the Quest pro for about an hour.
• canuckintime 4y ago
  Don't only consider VR headsets; also check out AR glasses. The newest generation of AR glasses are surprisingly practical as portable displays e.g. Nreal Air.[1] However neither VR headsets nor AR glasses have reached the resolution sweet spot to compete with monitors in permanent workspaces [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDekX4vrSsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDekX4vrSsA
  • georgewsinger 4y ago
    The Nreal Air looks cool, but it only offers a 46 degree FoV[1]. That's less than half the FOV of the Quest 2, which makes it hard to see all of your windows/workspace. (To be fair: the tradeoff is excellent PPD within its narrow FOV). [1] https://www.nreal.ai/specs/ https://www.nreal.ai/specs/
    • anotherjesse 4y ago
      (I'm trying a pair out. They are on Amazon for $379 and extended returns during Christmas...) It feels like a wall height screen about 8-10 feet in front of you. Perhaps a little bigger would be good, but it isn't that too small. The resolution of 1920x1080 is ok. I wish it was higher. And it doesn't support AR monitors (the 1920x1080 in the glasses a mirror of the iPad - except for blink .. - the demos for android are much nicer with AR windows places in physical space) The setup I'm testing: - nreal 1920x1080 nreal air - usb-c plugged into an ipad mini + cellular - tailscale allows me to remote into my desktop computer - with bluetooth keyboard and mouse - and then blink app to tmux (or perhaps vscode - I haven't tried it yet) I've only been testing a couple days. It feels much better than my experiments with Quest2 VR desktop. And when I am able to just work within a single app (blink, safari, ...) it is a good experience. My biggest struggle is iPad os - inconsistent keyboard shortcuts even in apple applications. I'd like to try a tiny raspberry pi like device that allows remote-ssh vscode + remote tmux + streaming chrome (vnc or perhaps https://www.mightyapp.com https://www.mightyapp.com) - but the hardware needs to support USB-C Display Port. Perhaps a DIY powered by Framework mainboard... https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1569120813806424064 https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/156912081380642406... Overall, it is still promising and I'm going to keep trying until end of January - to see if this is a good to take anywhere to code/dev/mosh. For a V1 of this experience it exceeds expectations (and is much better than quest2 for me)
• ilaksh 4y ago
  Have experience with Quest 2, too low res and poor comfort. I assume Quest Pro will be vastly better and will probably work for work if you use it with the Immersed app. It's going to depend 100% on the specific device. General experience is useless. Especially if it's not from a new model. If you really just care about 2d monitor simulation then check out Nreal.
  • georgewsinger 4y ago
    The Quest Pro has a better design than the Quest 2 (as well as many other benefits), but in terms of pixel density it only offers 10% higher PPD than the Quest 2 (which was already pretty low).[1] (Disclaimer: I'm affiliated with Simula). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28691358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28691358
    • Eisenstein 4y ago
      > it only offers 10% higher PPD than the Quest 2 My understanding is that the optics are what destroys readability on the Quest 2, and in that regard the Quest Pro is in a completely different league with the pancake lenses.
• ajolly 4y ago
  It's not quite as nice as a full desktop setup, but you can get portable 4K monitors in the 12 to 17 inch range. Also you can build some small but high powered machines. I've got a mini ATX build with a 12900 ks, and a 3090. Fits in a carry-on, way faster than any laptop. Also if you're spending that long in each location, it might be viable to just buy monitors at your location, especially if you think of it as the cost for enhanced productivity. I'm in a similar situation so I've tried to build as capable of the travel setup as possible. You can also throw desktop monitors in a checked bag, I'm usually only bringing one, but you can fit two to three. It really depends on how frequently you travel, if you're going to the same locations, if you can store stuff there, and how much additional cost are you willing to pay for a better set up. The luggage shipping services out there can be fairly reasonable, if you don't want to lug that much gear back and forth with you. Do you have a home base that you go back to, or are you jumping between locations? I used to be fully nomadic, I spent a lot of time optimizing.
  • janoc 4y ago
    12 to 17" 4k monitor is completely pointless. At those sizes a normal FullHD or 1920x1200 panel will do you the same service - and cost much less and require much less powerful GPU to drive (battery of your laptop will thank you!)
    • ajolly 4y ago
      My eyes aren't quite as sharp as they used to be, but there is still a substantial difference between a 1080p monitor and a 4k monitor, even at those sizes. Can't use it to display that much more, but text is smoother.(A retina ipad has higher dpi than a 4k 17", the dpi on a 4k 17 is identical to my old 13.5" surface book.) I do wish windows would let you scale different monitors to different custom dpis though. You can do it if you stick to the 100%, 125%, 150% etc levels, but not if you want to do something like 114%
• georgewsinger 4y ago
  The Simula One (https://simulavr.com https://simulavr.com) was designed specifically for this use case (disclaimer: I'm a cofounder of the project). TLDR: it's a 100% office dedicated headset with bleeding edge pixel density that runs Linux Desktop natively. Everything from the hardware to the software rendering is optimized for VR Desktop and the clear display of text. We really pushed hard to make the Simula One specs as premium/bleeding edge as humanly possible. For example, our headset has more than 50% higher pixel density than the Quest Pro (35.5 PPD vs. 22.69 PPD), and our compute specs are comparable to a premium office laptop (Intel 12th Gen i7-1265U Processor, up to 32GB of RAM, and 1TB of storage). For more discussion, here's a list of HN threads on the Simula One: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=simulavr.com https://hn.algolia.com/?q=simulavr.com. The most recent one discusses a comparison between the Simula One and the Quest Pro (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33318956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33318956). Pros of the Simula One: it offers native VR computing (i.e. you put on the headset, turn it on, and get see an uncapped number of your Linux Desktop apps running in front of you). Compare this to the Questo Pro, which for VR Desktop provides WiFi streamed screens from your laptop (placing latency and bandwidth constraints on what you can do, and capping the number of screens you can use to 5). Cons of the Simula One: it's still in preorder phase, and has a target ship date of ~Q2 2023. Our small scale makes the cost of the headset pretty high (though to be fair we're putting very premium specs into it).
  • TooSmugToFail 4y ago
    Interesting, thanks for sharing! What’s the resolution and the size of the panels you guys are using?
• grogenaut 4y ago
  I have a vive and a quest 2 and I tried working like that when travelling. The quest won't work in a car as it uses gyros. I tried for about 18 hours each device to work in VR. Many things are not there yet. My vive is attached to a 5 monitor dual GPU beast that drives a central 144hz 4k HDR 43" and 5 2560x144 monitors. The vive couldn't touch the physical setup for comfort or resolution or just non-fussiness. I constantly had to adjust virtual monitors. In real world I just scootch a quarter inch on my rolly cHair. It's like the first time you setup a physical workspace every time you use it for me. Vive gets warm. The quest 2 is too low resolution and too laggy. Battery too weak. It was a joy to take it off. Quest is more sweaty. With the quest I worked from a RV for 3 days. It sucked. What worked better was just 2 pelican cases with monitors and a discounted ups rate. In the RV I just shoved them in the corner and pulled them out when we parked. When I visit my mom or airbnb I just ship them to where I'm going. Was a massive relief. Maybe in a few years. It's not just pixel density, it's software, weight, latency, fiddlelyness.
  • vagab0nd 4y ago
    > The quest won't work in a car as it uses gyros. Am I reading it correctly you are trying to use VR in a vehicle while someone is driving? I get car sick very easily when riding. I also get motion sickness when using VR. I cannot imagine being affected by both at the same time.
    • szundi 4y ago
      You get sick because what you watch is moving differently that your eyes/head. VR is nailed to your head.
      • sideshowb 4y ago
        Hahaha no. I get sick when the motion I see doesn't match the gyros in my ears. I felt horribly sick from vr once with the gyros switched off.
    • pyrolistical 4y ago
• TexanFeller 4y ago
  I get upset when my workplaces don't provide me with a high DPI monitor. I feel every screen should be a "retina display" by now and we should accept no less. Needless to say I feel that working in VR is currently a sad joke. VR headsets simply don't have adequate PPI and optics yet. Text is barely legible unless it's blown up to ridiculous sizes.
  • georgewsinger 4y ago
    VR pixel density is arguably on an exponential curve. Most headsets are within one tripling of "human eye resolution".[1] A few are within one doubling. [1] https://i.imgur.com/Ml1dv3w.png https://i.imgur.com/Ml1dv3w.png
    • marshmellman 4y ago
      “Arguably” seems right. It’s definitely not obvious from the data points in that chart…
    • coder543 4y ago
      As noted elsewhere in this discussion, the Nreal Air glasses already offer 49ppd, which is way higher than the VR headsets on that chart. I haven't gotten to try them out yet, but they seem interesting.
    • itsyaboi 4y ago
      The Varjo XR-3 has a PPD over 70. Sadly locked behind a subscription pricing model.
• jedimastert 4y ago
  Not 100% on topic, but I got myselt a little wearable display (Vufine VUF-110) that straps on to my glasses, but it's not too bad as a second monitor. Of course, it's only 720p and could really only fit 80 characters wide on the screen, but that just keeps my line lengths short...
• robotburrito 4y ago
  I have done it while developing some VR apps. Only for quick code changes though via Virtual Desktop. It is definitely cool, and I could see it becoming a "thing" some day. But currently I have to say that the comfort and resolution is not quite there yet.
• desting 4y ago
  It's a horrible experience. The weight of the headset, the vertigo, the motion sickness. Personally, I am waiting for eyeball implants. I heard that Elon Musk is working on something like this, so I might give that a go when it's ready. I look forward to paying hundreds of dollars to restore my vision every time he has a tantrum and shuts off the service on a whim.
• debrice 4y ago
  I’ve tried the quest 2. I truly wanted it to work and was hoping I could find fixes when I hit roadblocks. I even invested in the most highly rated head strap and foam. For me it’s a no go. The software is kinda ok, the headset are also kinda ok but heavy. Overall the experience was mediocre at best. I lost velocity for the two weeks I tried using it, it was clunky and often not working and needed just too many hacks.
• fiat_fandango 4y ago
  I would rather become a brick mason or plumber before I have to work with a VR headset on. Zero doubts. If this becomes any kind of norm for tech work I'm throwing my computer out the window.
  • abruzzi 4y ago
    not a plumber--some contortions are sometimes involved to get into tight spaces (not as bad as my brother who is an auto mechanic when he has to get under the dash.) But I have put my name in for the position that drives the lawn mower for my wind down at the end of my career.
  • SoftTalker 4y ago
    Right with you. My city is desperate for bus drivers. I think that sounds pretty good compared to wearing one of those ridiculus VR goggles.
• usrbinbash 4y ago
  VR Headset? Hard nope for me. Lightweight AR headset? I would definitely give this a try. To specify what I am talking about: If the device is much bigger|bulkier|heavier than thick eyeglasses, I won't use it. If the device relies on controllers (aka. something I have to hold), I won't use it (gloves would be okay as long as they don't prevent me from typing or using a pen and paper).
  • sacrosancty 4y ago
• yummypaint 4y ago
  I have an index. Doing text editing in vr just can't compete with my 34" 4k monitor under any circumstances. However, virtual chalkboards can activate a different part of the brain and can be quite nice if you like working that way normally. VR is also excelent for viewing cad models but the tooling still needs tons of work. Once there is proper vr support in autodesk products i will likely use it maybe 30% of the time. One thing i didn't anticipate is how hard it is to do the equivalent of alt+tabbing to a reference document or similar and then jumping back to the main program in use in VR. Context switching is important for productivity and probably can't really be done right without remaking the whole desktop environment for vr. I would wait at least 5 years before expecting anything to be viable as a full monitor replacement.
• chaostheory 4y ago
  If you want to work in VR, I recommend getting the highest resolution possible. I love my Quest 2 for everything other than reading text. It was nausea inducing. The Valve Index is better but the resolution still isn’t there With HP’s reverb G2, it’s definitely possible since it has a higher resolution at a good price point. You can get used headsets for less than $300. It’s not great for games that require moving around since tracking is horrible, but it’s really great for work and sim games
• zmmmmm 4y ago
  Just a warning that I can see all kinds of people relating very personal takes on it, esp based on last-gen hardware like the Quest 2. The key thing is that effectively, there has never really been a VR device released with this as its primary purpose until the Quest Pro. So all the complaints of clunky software, lack of comfort, visual clarity, etc are all in part side effects of people repurposing tools that were simply not meant for the job. I've always been interested in this space and my conclusion with Quest Pro, which I've had for a week or so now, is that its borderline usable for specific tasks. However it's still not quite there for me as a primary working mode. I think about 50% of the issues are software addressable and it will be a big test of Meta to see if they managed to actually address them or not. The main issues for me are display resolution and refresh rate I think. When looking at black text on white background, it still has a "shimmering" type effect. It's very subtle and not something obvious at first but if I try to work hours in there (like I did yesterday), it eventually affects me. This seems addressable to me but I'm not 100% sure if the approach being taken (compressing the video feed) can solve it completely - we really need something more like RDP where it draws windowing primitives natively in the headset so that there's no "refresh" at all. The resolution would be "ok" if everything else was perfect but literally any other problem makes it an issue. However, my biggest suggestion here is that this is very personal - both to your own visual / perceptive / comfort context AND what you exactly do. Even within a specific application, "how" you do it matters. Which is all to say, you just need to try this out. I'd guess that prior to Quest Pro something like 5% of people would have found working in VR viable. Quest Pro probably brings it to 20% or so - a huge improvement but nothing like mainstream. The next gen should bring that way up to 50% or so I think - and we'll have line of sight on this, if not actual devices within 6 months - rumors are there will be an announcement from Apple in Jan/Feb (but likely not shipping until June) and then Simula is working hard on their device. If you are in the Apple ecosystem it'd be pretty crazy not to wait until their announcement (I deplore the closed ecosystem that is going to result from this but there's no chance it won't be awesome). Finally, you'd definitely want to consider the light weight options like Nreal Air [0] if truly all you want is a giant floating monitor or two. [0] https://www.nreal.ai/air/ https://www.nreal.ai/air/
• codex_irl 4y ago
  Has anyone tried doing this with a Varjo headset? https://varjo.com https://varjo.com I would love to try this, they have some of the highest resolutions that I've seen but a little $$$
  • kaapipo 4y ago
    As someone who has worked with Varjo products (XR-3, XR-1 and VR-3), my feelings about them are that the image quality is really good, but the accompanying hardware and software make the experience a PITA
• i_like_apis 4y ago
  One complaint about it is you need a fast router and ideally a wired connection to it from your computer. Otherwise it can be too laggy to use. But virtual desktops are cool. The Quest Pro makes it nice because the pass through camera is quite good.
• pnw 4y ago
  I have used pretty much every VR and AR headset there is, and have many hundreds of hours in them dating back to the Oculus DK1. Even the Index and the new Quest Pro lack the resolution needed for extended work with text on virtual screens, not to mention that the weight and heat of the headset become increasingly uncomfortable after a few hours. I also suspect that extended use of a headset wasn't good for the health of my eyes. Certainly if you wear glasses it would be pretty uncomfortable, but I generally felt a lot more eyestrain in VR than I would after extended use of a monitor. I think we are still quite a few years away from VR being a slam dunk for a virtual workstation, and it's going to require continued investments in optics, material science and display technology. There's a reason Meta is spending billions on this, it's an exceptionally difficult problem.
• OJFord 4y ago
  However good the software gets at providing a desktop / working environment, I simply couldn't handle shutting myself off like that, just wouldn't find it comfortable. Unless you somehow know that wouldn't bother you, I'd recommend trying it first (or sufficiently within return window) before getting too set on the idea.
  • kypro 4y ago
    The Quest Pro has full colour pass-through mode I believe. So it shouldn't feel so much like shutting yourself off as it does with other VR headsets. Plus, they're not fully enclosed so you still have peripheral vision. Would be awkward using them in public though...
• jstrieb 4y ago
  Can't comment on what it's like with a modern headset, but I have used an old Oculus Go with great success, despite its low resolution. It's definitely uncomfortable and hard on the eyes for long periods of time, but the focus it affords makes it worthwhile for short bursts. I set everything up to interface with my computer using a web browser on the headset, which might not match your use case. https://jstrieb.github.io/posts/vr-programming/ https://jstrieb.github.io/posts/vr-programming/
• tomxor 4y ago
  It's not ready. It doesn't really matter which headset you use or what specs they have, they are all way to heavy and uncomfortable to use for work. And I say that as someone who enjoys gaming on them quite a lot. John Carmack mentioned the concept of VR for work specifically in his latest presentation on the pro2... something he's clearly interested in and believes will eventually happen but in his words were something along the lines of "this is going to need a lot of painful dogfooding before it's useful". Once they are down to the weight of some very chunky sunglasses - then we can start to be a bit more serious about it. It will happen, in the not too distant future, but if you force it right now I believe you will be in for a lot of discomfort and ultimately bail.
• thedangler 4y ago
  I’ve seen people use the Nreal Air AR Glasses Currently sold out. But I’d be interested to hear how these work for programming.
  • shiftpgdn 4y ago
    If you're using it with a supported Android phone it is incredible The Nreal Air is easily the best/most fun thing I've bought all year.
• AndrewOMartin 4y ago
  I'm currently visiting family abroad and working remotely. I bought my work machine (A Mac M1) and a quest 2 with me. So far I've done one week of 9 hour days and on one of those days I used Immersed VR until I got a battery warning. The experience was flawed but many things worked surprisingly well. I was getting fed up with just having one screen and having four low-resolution screens was really useful for some things. I could have slack on one screen, VSCode in the centre, my calendar or documentation on the left and my personal recreational browser and music Windows on my right (I eventually moved this to the top because otherwise it was covering the corridor where family members walked past and I preferred to see them using pass-through than being completely oblivious to the outside world). Is it a very small screen for an IDE and is text blurry? Yes both. But text right in front of your head is quite clear. You have to scan your head to read lots, but most of the time a suggestion of the surrounding text is enough to get by. You also have to change your idea of "sharp text" it's better to use something like cool-retro-term or zoomed in browser to get text that's knowingly large and fuzzy. I wear glasses but have VROptician lenses and a Bobovr headstrap. The batteries would have died before I became uncomfortable. The most important observation is that I didn't jump back in to VR once the batteries were charged or the next morning, but I'm glad to have a multi monitor option that fits in my cabin luggage, and cost a free hundred pounds, for when I'm doing a task that would be a total pain on one monitor.
  • sam1r 4y ago
    Do you mind clarifying your multi monitor setups’ tech specification? Never really thought about being one to many along. Thanks!
    • AndrewOMartin 4y ago
      At home I just have one enormous monitor and use the laptop itself as a secondary. I think I actually preferred two "normal" sizes monitors though as "fill this monitor" is such a fundamental concept in window managing. (Sorry I can't be more specific, I haven't paid attention to the sizes or resolution for years, so can't remember what's what) In Immersed VR there are no tech specs, if that's what you mean. Though I am using a "headless" HDMI connector, which I think gets me an extra monitor without having to pay monthly for Immersed. If this becomes workable then it would allow me to attain a dream of proper remote working, taking longer holidays to cities and such with the wife, without taking annual leave. Probably a pipedream :p
• samstave 4y ago
  Dude, get two AOC USB monitors... I have FOUR of them. https://www.amazon.com/AOC-I1659FWUX-USB-Powered-Portable-1920x1080/dp/B07LCS4HHR/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3HTCV9VEORIVV&keywords=aoc+usb+monitors&qid=1667688932&sprefix=aoc+usb+monitors%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-5 https://www.amazon.com/AOC-I1659FWUX-USB-Powered-Portable-19...
• orbit7 4y ago
  I've got a Quest 2 but used it for about a week barely used it since due to eye strain off it had the worst head ache ever after 1/2 a day on it, found it had some cool ideas certainly not ready for productivity but certainly on the way to it. Quest Pro sounds like it could be a game changer but whats it like on eye strain/ head aches? The continuous IPD adjustment sounds like a real improvement but I don't want to gamble on one at 1500.
• xtracto 4y ago
  This is way far away from your specific question, but I've had a similar situation to yours (travelling constantly between cities). What has worked for me (staying a couple of months within citiies) is to "buy" good used monitors in local pawn shops and re-pawn (sorry dont know the exact English term) them once I've finished using them. I end up paying around $50 usd or equivalent to "rent" a monitor for a couple of months. I tried asking local internet cafes to rent me screens, but it is becoming less and less common.
• tchaffee 4y ago
  I easily fit two 27" monitors in 1/2 of my normal sized suitcase. At first I was super careful how I packed them. But they've lasted so long I just throw some clothes around them for the past few years. Full size mechanical keyboard too, and lots of cables and a power strip. I almost always have extra space and end up adding clothes I don't need just to keep stuff in its place. Weight is the real consideration you might have to manage. One time I had to remove some items and put them in carry-on to meet a weight restriction. After which I bought a very cheap luggage scale.
• nl 4y ago
  I have a friend who has been working (coding) using a Quest Pro for about a week and likes it. I'm not a VR fan at all but I tried it for a few minutes and was impressed. The headset is comfortable and light and the tracking is flawless. It was the first time I've thought VR might have significant applications outside gaming.
• excalibur 4y ago
  The ability to work comfortably in AR and take several large screens wherever you go is alleged to be a major selling point for the Magic Leap 2. We'll see, the company isn't known for delivering on its promises.
• bitL 4y ago
  Can't you rent displays when you move? More practical than carrying them around or being restricted to using cars.
• Sindrome 4y ago
  I am surprised how intuitive the Quest Pro MR Workstation stuff is. So far everything else is not worth the $1.5k price.
• Nathanael_M 4y ago
  I’ve been thinking about this lately (as are many people, I’d imagine, with all the Metaverse hoopla) and I think the adoption line for VR is text resolution. Once a headset is in play that can match out of headset text resolution, rapid adoption, tooling, etc. will follow. Something I’ve been thinking about is tooling, though. Like if I had a browser and file storage in an environment with infinitely scalable windows/resolution I could do a lot of my work. It’s hard to wrap my head around. Like an OS running in an OS. The answer can’t be just a horrific amount of manual labor porting a bunch of open source utilities over to some new VR based OS, right? I need to be able to connect my headset to my computer and use my existing tools in a VR environment. It’s almost like emulation. Unless Microsoft and Apple make VR compatible OS’s? Step 1: Headset tech that doesn’t require horrific vendor lock-in (looking at you, metabook) Step 2: Highly interactive, scalable browser (too many apps are Electron for it to be anything else) I think with those two things I could migrate a lot of my work. Then you’d need to start fleshing it out. Creating your own little space, figuring out the tech to use your other tools in VR, creating VR focused Linux distro’s, self-hosting instances of your little corner of this new universe, giant statues of Neal Stephenson reciting passages from Snow Crash like scripture…
  • hailwren 4y ago
    So, you might be interested in https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula . There have been a few examples of VR windows managers on Linux which don’t require an entire OS rewrite. Is that the solution Meta will go w/? almost certainly not. But replacing a WM for a different “view” of your OS is a pretty common thing on Linux. (For some distros like Arch, replace isn’t the right word. You have to install whichever one you’d like from the beginning)
    • Nathanael_M 4y ago
      Oh this is very cool. I was thinking about game engines in this context, but couldn’t wrap my head around combining the OS and the engine. Browsers seemed much more accessible, but this project is kind if blowing my mind. People ultimately need to be able to have choice. Their OS in their environment on their tech stack. I’m not sure how that happens, but open source operating system on an open source game engine seems like the right start. Now we just need an open source headset…
• grepLeigh 4y ago
  Have you tried a VPN connection to your powerful workstation? What didn't work?
  • Sirened 4y ago
    all the fun lag of trying to use X forwarding, now in 3D :)
    • grepLeigh 4y ago
      I wonder if this might improve over a more modern transport, if you were using an IPSec VPN. Wireguard is enabling us to re-think what's possible over a VPN. Here's an example of what I mean. The network stack is based on Wireguard, with https://github.com/tonarino/innernet https://github.com/tonarino/innernet providing the topology and identity provisioning. https://tonari.no/ https://tonari.no/
• TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  I've experimented with the Meta Quest 2 for work and for gaming. Despite continual adjustments and trying with or without glasses/contact lenses and using the glasses spacer, I was unable to comfortably use this device for any use case without experiencing headaches at approximately 30 minutes per session. I've never figured out whether this was a user issue or if this hardware is simply crap. In the end, it makes sense that OSHA guidelines suggest that your monitor should be at least half a meter away from your eyes. Because of this experience, I'm quite pessimistic about VR as a whole, and the Quest 2 is sitting in its box on my bookshelf. I'd like to sell it or give it away, but that would require me putting it back on and de-linking my Facebook account, and I can't be bothered to do that.
• contingencies 4y ago
  Had the same idea, tried Valve Index, resolution too low, not good for eyes. However I wonder if you could build a traveling case that includes two monitors like this: https://ibb.co/x2XDYms https://ibb.co/x2XDYms
• deleted 4y ago
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• bilsbie 4y ago
  Everyone wants to use VR to program on a few giant screens but what if we changed the nature of programming and could represent it as something we could walk around and change things. Get back to working with our hands.
• spoonjim 4y ago
  VR is not yet and may never be at the place where you want to spend a full workday in it. It’s good in a pinch for traveling etc. but honestly it’s just not what it’s best at.
• iepathos 4y ago
  The technology isn't there yet. The resolution needs to be probably 6x what it currently is to be good for reading and productivity purposes. The strain on the eyes and weight on the head/neck from having VR headset on for extended periods is also significantly higher than the strain from just a viewing a monitor and that problem is not going away anytime soon.
• deleted 4y ago
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• BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
  > Does anyone have any useful experience to share on working in a VR headset? Tried it, returned it. > Is it comfortable for longer periods of time? No. > How is it on the eyes? Strain. Any extra screen real estate VR gives you if is vastly outweighed by the negatives. It's a sweaty glowing device right in your face that causes significantly more strain than a laptop monitor. It's cool to think about but I think you already know the answer to this. Try it yourself if you'd like.
• peteforde 4y ago
  Commenting because this somehow hasn't come up, but Quest Pro is not the headset that you're potentially looking for. (And not just because the Quest Pro only gets ~2hrs battery life.) What you're really looking for is the Varjo Aero: https://varjo.com/products/aero/ https://varjo.com/products/aero/ The Aero has 35PPD, automatic IPD adjustment and incredibly good eye tracking. It is on an entirely different level than the Quest Pro. It's also significantly more expensive, but it is the only VR headset that I've ever been able to work comfortably in (coding) for long periods. You can use it with a laptop that has a sufficient GPU. The Quest Pro confuses me because I don't think the perfect customer exists. Anyone who needs it and can afford it is going to be 10x happier with an Aero. The only thing more expensive [at this part of the market] than an Aero is buying a Quest Pro first.
  • cpurdy 4y ago
    ^this If you spend $200 on a VR headset, expect to get what you pay for
• UGEplex 4y ago
  Look into(sic) the Nreal Air AR glasses. They're 1080p micro-OLED displays and are sharper than the Quest 2. They're lightweight, look like Sunglasses , and I've used them for productivity and watching vids for hours daily without eye strain. In fact I've been using them for gaming on my Steam Deck too and its relieved my neck strain from not having to look down while playing. With something like Samsung DeX on an S-series Samsung phone you can have a desktop environment, but they also just screen mirror USB-C DP Alt Mode compatible devices including some laptops and tablets, or you can use their AR Space for 3 floating (or pinned) windows. They also work with M1 Apple laptops directly, and iPhones and HDMI devices in general via an adaptor. Just note their AR Space feature doesn't work with many Exynos based phones, butnit does with some like the s10e and s21. Example screenshots I took from Samsung DeX while using my Nreal Air's https://i.postimg.cc/nrx3WLg8/Screenshot-20221025-094752-Pocket-Editor.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/nrx3WLg8/Screenshot-20221025-094752-Poc... https://i.postimg.cc/pV0WZcGk/Screenshot-20221021-153844-HBO-MAX.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pV0WZcGk/Screenshot-20221021-153844-HBO... https://i.postimg.cc/pr4cZt84/Ffn0ud-ZX0-BMz-Nv-P.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/pr4cZt84/Ffn0ud-ZX0-BMz-Nv-P.jpg