18 ms·

Local simulation feature to be removed from all Autodesk Fusion 360 versions

365 points by d4a 4y ago

blt 4y ago
How user-hostile. With all this cloud nonsense the need for effort and funding in open-source CAD is greater than ever.
- skykooler 4y ago
  I wish FreeCAD could get the sort of performance and UI overhauls Blender got.
  - stavros 4y ago
    Maybe FreeCAD should start charging businesses for compiled executables.
  - blt 4y ago
    I'm not even a CAD user and I'd contribute to some large-scale fundraiser to improve open-source CAD. Hopefully plenty of mechanical engineering shops will see the value in contributing. Expensive specialist developers are needed, but it'll be worth it.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    Does FreeCAD have a foundation that allows for at least a handful of paid enployees to work on it? I think that’s the key to a successful open source desktop app, it has to have long term full time contributors. That requires buy in from industry.
- jimmaswell 4y ago
  I'm starting to think we need laws saying that functionality that can be done without a cloud subscription must be offered to be allowed to run locally for a reasonable one time payment. No heated seat subscriptions, no photoshop as a service. The future is bleak if this is allowed to continue.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    As long as good competition can be fostered, it doesn't have to be bleak. As much as people complain about the adobe packages, it receives updates frequently and new features all the time and I think the monthly fee is reasonable considering what the old one time fees were.
- 1-6 4y ago
  CadQuery with a GUI sounds really good right now.
daenz 4y ago
And is now token-based. According to this[0], tokens are $3 a pop. A "basic study" simulation costs 3 tokens ($9) and an "advanced study" simulation costs 6 tokens ($18). Imagine how quickly you could rack up charges as you iterate on a design. 0. https://www.autodesk.com/benefits/flex?term=500&tab=flex https://www.autodesk.com/benefits/flex?term=500&tab=flex
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  Minimum toke buy package: 1.500 DOLLAR
  - retbull 4y ago
    They saw raid shadow legends was making more money than them and thought they'd take a page out of their book on micro transactions.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
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userbinator 4y ago
The perils of SaaS strike again. It used to be that you bought a license, and then the software was yours to use eternally thereafter with zero external dependencies. When will the users learn that SaaS means the software can change at any time out of your control, up to and including not functioning at all, and you will not be able to do anything about it? Or will their minds continue to be "clouded" by the corporate propaganda? I think the question of why people will willingly "build on a shaky foundation" is appropriate, especially given the type of software this is.
- stavros 4y ago
  This isn't even a SaaS. This is a desktop program with some bullshit inconvenient "save to the cloud" feature that would be better off missing (I have Nextcloud if I really need this, thanks Adobe), and various functionality crippling like removing the local simulation just to force people to rent cloud machines from them. Fuck Autodesk.
  - userbinator 4y ago
    That's right, it's SaaS slowly creeping its way in.
    - chii 4y ago
      It's SaaS without the actual aaS. It's not like autodesk's server workload is beneficial to the end user.
- spacebeer 4y ago
  There are still many good old "offline" CAD programs, some of them points out permanent license as their selling point (Alibre Design, BricsCAD, VariCAD...). When it comes to simulation, there are also many others. I usually use FreeCAD to run simple FEM analysis (it has more possibilities than Solidworks SimulationXpress) Many Fusion users have switched to alternative CAD programs in last year or two. Many of them started using Alibre products, which have quite good pricing (Atom is great choice for hobby users/small workshops). Too bad it's Windows only (like almost all CAD programs). But I think FreeCAD also increased their user-base, which will hopefully help them grow (like Blender). It's really great software, but still missing some features needed for (more) professional work. It's hard for companies to move to another CAD software, but some companies are really pushing their users away :D
thereisnospork 4y ago
Whelp, there goes any interest I had in paying for Fusion360. edit: In the interest of not just whining, does anyone know a competent hobbyist-grade fea/cfd solution? Doesn't have to be free[0], but I'm not going to pay for a license to pay for compute. [0] I've tried open foam once or twice, but couldn't get a decent workflow put together (model > mesh > sim > results).
jlawer 4y ago
For consumers in some jurisdictions they may be able to get refunds on the product if it can be argued that this feature was a core reason the application was purchased. However once you are a business many of those protections aren’t present. There is an assumption that businesses should be able to sort things out amongst themselves and the court system. However an SME barely has any more power then a consumer going against a giant like Autodesk. I wonder if the solution wouldn’t be to extend those protections to smaller businesses, and additionally allow reclaiming the cost of any investments in the platform (Training, etc) and other expenses. Your not telling autodesk what they can do with their product, but if they are selling it based on features they are removing, they will be liable to make right anyone who purchased on that basis.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  I think even as a business you would be in the right. Selling you a license and then removing functionality from it after you sold it to them.
  - cartoonfoxes 4y ago
    With a fat EULA attached. Insert obligatory definition of product applies to current billing period only, Autodesk reserves the right to add or remove functionality without notice
    - BonoboIO 4y ago
      If I have bought a fusion 360 license yesterday for 3 years, they would have to deliver the features for 3 years. But I think they will remove all of it for everyone with 1 month notice.
      - cartoonfoxes 4y ago
        You sure? For a cloud-hosted app like Fusion/360 I would expect that you're only entitled to 3 years of access to PRODUCT_NAME/CURRENT_BUILD, without an option to rollback to older versions (eg. at time of purchase) on request, and almost certainly without reference to specific functionality. Unless they specifically inform you that older release are available, your contract with them absolutely would allow for removal of features.
tinus_hn 4y ago
Wonder how many companies will be forced to drop the app because they don’t allow their designs to be uploaded to the cloud.
- jrockway 4y ago
  Was that something you could ever do with Fusion 360? Fusion 360 was my introduction to CAD and it has been very cloud-heavy since I started using it. I think they must have some other product for actual companies, competing with Solidworks.
  - cartoonfoxes 4y ago
    Inventor is their direct competitor to Solidworks, which afaik can still be run offline.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    You can export local f3d files (also STEP, STL, etc, but f3d contains the necessary bits for timeline, etc). I assume AutoCAD is the closest equivalent to SolidWorks that they sell, but I'm not certain. That's the first CAD software I used- back in middle school, so mid-to-late 1980s. They added 3D support and I think it uses the same underlying code to handle 3D structures. Again, not certain- it's not a product I pay any attention to. FWIW, I spend a bunch of time in Fusion 360 and I hadn't really done anything with simulation (it's on the bucket list, but not a priority).
    - jrockway 4y ago
      I feel the same way about simulations. People are mad that Fusion 360 started turning the screws on hobbyists. It is ridiculously expensive for noodling around with your 3D printer once a month. I paid rather than learning some other piece of software, and whether or not simulation is free is not something that particularly bothers me. I'm always considering jumping to something else in the back of my mind; OpenSCAD is most appealing to me, but I like the 2D sketch + extrude model. (All the cool kids are using Onshape now, but I just can't get excited about a browser app. So I keep using Fusion 360, and honestly, I still like it, even if Autodesk is not a shining paragon of software and social excellence.)
anigbrowl 4y ago
Sometimes I feel bad about being so behind the curve on hosting and data storage and running the little python notebook that could on my personal machine, but then I see stuff like this.
wcarss 4y ago
This is with one month of notice? I don't use AutoCAD, so I'm a nobody here, but these sound like pretty important and often-used features to cut (er, transfer to pay-per-use) without _any justification_ whatsoever. Seems like a great move to finally strangle that golden goose that's been kicking around all these years.
- zem 4y ago
  particularly given this: 8<--------------------------------------------------------- If I am in the middle of a project at the time of this update, can I delay the Fusion 360 update to solve the remaining tasks on my local machine? You can temporarily pause the update by enabling Offline Mode prior to September 6, 2022. This enables you to delay the update, only until you are prompted to reconnect to the Fusion 360 servers (up to 2 weeks after switching offline). You can find more details on how to enable Fusion 360 Offline Mode here: How to work in offline mode in Fusion 360. It is recommended to not rely solely on the limited time you are provided by using the offline mode to complete your project. In the event where you require more time after being prompted to log back in, you can explore the cloud solve options, which utilize the same solvers as the local solvers had previously.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    Exactly, it's common in programs like solidworks to not upgrade for a year or more, until the project is done, then upgrade between projects. Autodesk just ensured that no legit engineering groups will choose fusion for any project of consequence - they can't be trusted.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Yeah golden goose for AutoCAD, eats all the jewelry in the house. These guys have like super rosy estimates of what kind of bill you can present people with, like David Heinemeier Hanssen, figures "hey $20 a month no big deal" but it's like no $20 is a huge deal. They have an image of America where everybody earns $140000 a year and gets raises no problem, and doesn't get fucked out of practically all of it by the tumor industries--housing, medicine, and education. After the mortgage is paid, after the raise is negotiated, after the college degree turns out does not provide that six-figure paycheck, and after the doctor commits malpractice in a disgusting minute way to get recurring revenue from you, tells you a really sleazy lie to get you on the hook--after all that extortion, people really don't have $20 for a software license left at the end of the month. . Especially because those tumor industries price discriminate, as we all know tumors tend to squeeze. So it's the realtor trying to fuck you and refusing to show you nice houses you can afford, plus asking 6% commission on a house which of course means he's playing for the other team pumping up the price, telling you to show up with signed checks and shit, and of course blocking development to keep the inventory expensive, they have plenty of time for that. Then the bank extorting you whoops we can't process your mortgage relief act whoops your rate came in 1% higher--banks which can't even compute interest rates correctly, even in Stanford it's so embarrassing, and they just fetishistically want the highest interest rate they can get, so they give you like "incentives" shit, like give you money when you sign the demonic contracts. . Which are common in all these tumor industries, they're full of debt full of contracts, full of people staring you down--people on whose faces is imprinting the savage betrayal and harm they secretly do to those who can't pay[1]--and figure out exactly how many thousands they can get out of you. Plus they align with your boss--your boss offers you a ride home, now he knows where you live and can talk to the landlord, make sure you never benefit from a raise. Bosses pay for insurance, and the privacy is just not there, the costs bleed out so if you've had illness you're a liability, also because you can be out of work longer and in a justified way. Plus it's a super important factor, the insurance, because it binds you to the job in depressions so he can be more exploitative--bosses love depressions, get people to fucking work and never even think of asking for a raise--and insurance for employees is more than the wage itself in many cases. Then the final and most tumescent industry, education, actually demands you answer all kinds of intimate questions to figure out how much it can extract from "you" meaning the student's parents, for the benefit of the son, who is the one who actually gets fucked if there's delinquency on payment. Tumor industries. You can't just jack up your price way above inflation forever--AutoCAD and I would say SaaS in general is about finished with their vendor-lock-in phase--the contracts are signed--now comes the tumor phase. Adobe and AutoCAD are just the beginning. [1] Ambulances 100% leave people on the side of the road dying when they get enough info on the patient to know they can get away with it (like someone who's been evicted), if he doesn't sign the digital thing getting on the hook for their $1200 taxi ride. You can see it in their face, that's how they get people to sign, by sometimes carrying out the threats they're implying with their shitty attitude. The whole game is pretending there's a choice when actually you and they both tacitly know you're fucked if you don't. They only have to do it a few times per paramedic--and there's magic spells that allow them to do it, like maybe special places that are OK for dumping the dying like they can do a special diagnosis claim you're fine turn around and leave you back at your house--but they do do it or otherwise people wouldn't cooperate like they do. They wouldn't have a legit coercive stare.
joebob42 4y ago
This is a fairly core feature they're removing from a product they already sold. I also liked that they don't make any attempt at claiming this is for any reason other than more money. No "oh our new models are too powerful to run locally" or "oh for security reasons" or whatever. Which would be pretty transparent bullshit but I think a lot of companies would try anyways. This literally admits that the cloud functionality is identical, just paid per use. Imo if you bought the product in this state, fine, but if you bought it before they probably ought to have to grandfather you in forever.
- eastbound 4y ago
  It is not fine. - Corporations do this for recurring revenue, but also because software IP is easier to protect in the cloud where no-one can decompile the code, - But it’s a hell for customers.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - frankharv 4y ago
    What happens when Autodesk Cloud is hacked and your model is stolen. Who would put something of so much value as the original model in the cloud? Will AutoDesk reimburse you when cloud is hacked and your design stolen?
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      I already thought this was outrageous just on principle, but holy cow this point you just raised pushes it over the top. This point alone should end all conversations dead without even a hint of a maybe or calculation. "I will go back to pencils and drafting boards before I put my entire companies primary assets on anyone else's server." * 1m companies. Imagine if github owned git and removed the local repo other than the current checked out hash?
lizardactivist 4y ago
This could make Autodesk a no-go for companies that make designs for defense or critical infrastructure, where sharing the design with Autodesk (or any other entity) is not an option. Companies that are not based in the US in particular will probably start looking at Solidworks, if they have not done so already.
- stavros 4y ago
  Nah, Fusion already has "cloud save" exclusively, so that ship has long sailed. You can't not share your designs with them, AFAIK.
- cartoonfoxes 4y ago
  No-one in these spaces was using Fusion/360 to begin with. Aero and defense are mostly CATIA 5 and Pro/ENGINEER (Creo), with offline PDM.
  - CapricornNoble 4y ago
    Friendly reminder that CATIA[1], which was used to design the Eurofighter Typhoon, runs really well under Wine. I'm sure that's not 100% feature-equivalent to the latest Autodesk Fusion, but at least you can run it locally without getting raked over the coals by the software company. [1] https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=6153 https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...
  - mgreenleaf 4y ago
    I did hear this week that Autodesk Construction Cloud is currently banned from military projects (was in use and is not currently permitted) because of something to do with security policies; but I didn't find out what exactly was in violation, does anyone happen to know what the issue is/was?
- 1-6 4y ago
  Revit is such a terrible tool that there’s an entire ecosystem of AddIns that support the pathetic program. Autodesk hasn’t since made significant improvements. They probably don’t even have enough C# programmers to update the codebase.
BonoboIO 4y ago
Mind you, a token is $3/piece. You can only buy them in packs of 500 and higher, and they expire in a year’s time. Something that I’ve noticed is that you used to be able to buy 100 tokens, but they removed that option some time ago, too.
- gnu8 4y ago
  It speaks to financial desperation more than cynical profit grubbing. They need to juice sales and fully recognize the income to remain solvent.
- akira2501 4y ago
  Tell me Autodesk has a monopoly without telling me Autodesk has a monopoly.
  - Blackthorn 4y ago
    That's the thing, they don't! There's a lot of options in this space. Ansys, Dassault SOLIDWORKS (though they're trying to push the cloud model, lmao), Siemens. Smaller devs like zw3d which plug into dedicated sim packages (it's not like f360's is that comprehensive). Why don't people move? It's not like a super free market, but there's a bunch of options in the space.
    - bsder 4y ago
      Because you could get Fusion360 for $500 per year but the equivalent in Solidworks cost $5K base+$5k for CAM+$5K for modeling+$5K for ... Solidworks is the monopoly and it was only the insertion of Fusion360 that broke it. Solidworks is so entrenched that they still haven't reduced their prices even though Fusion360 is absolutely killing them at the low end. > Why don't people move? It's not like a super free market, but there's a bunch of options in the space. I'd love to hear about them and throw some money at them. Before Fusion360, I knew of basically nothing at the low end.
      - inferiorhuman 4y ago
BonoboIO 4y ago
Their cloud is extremely slow, even saving a simple object as STL to print is slow. If you save it via the export as workaround it takes milliseconds to save. If you save it via the default menu you are in for a 2 minute wait where their cloud is doing something and then it generates the same file. Absurd.
- amadeusw 4y ago
  The local export is not just faster, it's functionally better: there are a few useful options you can tweak. The one option I'm using local export for is increasing detail, e.g. to get a very round object without noticeable edges around the perimeter.
api 4y ago
The cloud is DRM.
- cyanydeez 4y ago
  It's kinda amusing to think most crypto currency are essentially DRM tools.
jwitthuhn 4y ago
As someone who is mostly familiar with autodesk's M&E division which is responsible for 3ds Max and Maya, it is comforting to see that the other parts of autodesk also hate their customers.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  Which is a mutual relationship
inamberclad 4y ago
Man, Autodesk has been making all the wrong moves recently. What is going on over there?
- cartoonfoxes 4y ago
  Lately? Autodesk has been a user-hostile company for a long time.
  - 1-6 4y ago
    They’ve milked AutoCAD and Revit long enough. Time for alternatives.
sonofhans 4y ago
This is a new low, truly more dystopian than I imagined software could ever get. Imagine this becoming a pattern. You have software you need for work, and the company behind it wants more money — so they pick the most popular feature and make it pay-per-use. It’s horrifying. I hope this fails fast and hard, as a lesson to other companies. I doubt it, though. I ran IT at a big architecture firm 25 years ago, and everyone hated Autodesk then. That hasn’t changed — most architects still hate Autodesk, even if they have to or choose to get value from Autodesk products. At that point AutoCAD still used dongles for licensing. If you upgraded a license you had to have both dongles plugged in. Some computers with multiple upgrades had multiple dongles hanging off the back, and I had to build custom dongle supports so they wouldn’t fall out and deauth a machine in the middle of someone’s work. So yeah, even with that history, this surprises and horrifies me.
- coreyisthename 4y ago
  My old man owns a successful firm and has hated autodesk for as long as I can remember. He told me the prices like 20 years ago and I was blown away. No idea what they are today, but I imagine they’re much higher and much more “nickel and dimey”
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  This is rapidly becoming the "norm". Why do you think basically every software product coming out these days is "SaaS"? It turns out that "SaaS" is basically equivalent to "we're rent seeking - we won't do more work, but we will rake in more revenue". My prediction is that we're going to force the learning curve of tech on the general population (also already happening) because just like those who couldn't read were heavily abused by those who could - those who can't host their own software are being abused by those who can.
  - asah 4y ago
    Meh. 20% annual maintenance is classic for on-prem enterprise software.
  - legutierr 4y ago
mr_tristan 4y ago
As a hobbyist who used Fusion 360 for various woodworking design and CNC tasks, this doesn’t really impact me, however, it basically pushes me a lot closer to investing in other tools. Basically, pulling features without much communication or forewarning is just not OK. Part of me wonders about the feasibility of an open source business based around paid support and training of a complex professional tool. I know of cases this works for tools aimed at software engineers, but I’d be curious if that was really attempted with CAD
- sent-hil 4y ago
  > Part of me wonders about the feasibility of an open source business based around paid support and training of a complex professional tool. I know of cases this works for tools aimed at software engineers, but I’d be curious if that was really attempted with CAD Solidworks isn't open source, but they provide support and training. So it's possible of open source business to do the same.
- loonster 4y ago
  https://myigetit.com/ https://myigetit.com/ They do it for the big cad programs.
TOMDM 4y ago
I swear, the companies in 3d software tooling adjacent industries must almost _want_ Blender to eat their lunch. If affected companies banded together to pay in even 10% of what they currently pay Autodesk towards working with the blender foundation, we'd see it all in FOSS within 2 years. Coordination problems are hard though. Only time will tell how hard people will actually push back.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jahewson 4y ago
  CAD is fundamentally different from mesh-based 3D. You’d have to start from scratch. Plus the physics simulations are serious, not video game stuff. There’s also a minefield of patents to contend with. Nor can you forge your own path if you want people’s models to be compatible (and I mean mathematically, not just file formats).
  - physicsguy 4y ago
    It’s not even just patents, most of these software share solid modelling kernels. The Siemens tools mostly use ParaSolid. Dassault’s use CGM. There’s all sorts of inter licensing deals in this space.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Blender is not CAD/CAM software.
  - TOMDM 4y ago
    I'm aware, however there have been a couple efforts now to introduce CAD tooling into Blender. https://github.com/hlorus/CAD_Sketcher https://github.com/hlorus/CAD_Sketcher https://github.com/EleotleCram/blender-cad-tools https://github.com/EleotleCram/blender-cad-tools I'm not suggesting that they are ready for professional use, just that I don't think the Autodesk moat is as deep as some might assume, and that if there was a concerted community effort Blender could accomplish those tasks.
sent-hil 4y ago
As someone who uses and relies on Fusion for work, it's frustrating how customer hostile Autodesk is. And this is on top of their subscription price increase they announced in March. A part of me wants to reimplement the tool holders for ToolWall[1] in OpenSCAD[2] and be done with it with Autodesk forever. [1] - https://toolwallhq.com https://toolwallhq.com [2] - https://openscad.org https://openscad.org
- hactually 4y ago
  If you know folk in the industry - I'd be keen to know what work needs funding to be enough to move from Autodesk to OpenSCAD or similar
  - jker 4y ago
    I’ve been using OnShape, which is pretty nice.
  - sent-hil 4y ago
    Fusion supports a wide range of use case from CAD to CAM and others. None of open source tools (FreeCad, OpenSCAD, Opencad etc.) come close to matching Fusion's features. I don't think most even support CAM which I need for CNC tool paths. Happy to chat more if you're interested in it.
    - hactually 4y ago
      I'm keen to connect - my email is on my profile if you'd like to. Just connected to another via this same thread. I do wonder if there's enough engineers that started in the 00's and are now almost retired looking to work on righting some wrongs in our industry :D
      - OJFord 4y ago
        > engineers that started in the 00's and are now almost retired That's a different take on age discrimination in hiring than I'm used to seeing!
bilsbie 4y ago
Is this a feature we could add to openscad? Seems like a lot of people would be willing to pay someone to add it.
- kube-system 4y ago
  The people who want simulation in Fusion 360 probably didn’t pick it over openscad for that one feature. They’re very different tools.
- lostapathy 4y ago
  It’s not really. OpenSCAD is awesome but you can’t even model a true circle or export a solid that’s useful for CAM.
BonoboIO 4y ago
I like their [0] anti piracy page. So disconnect from reality with their pricing. [0] https://www.autodesk.com/genuine/autocad https://www.autodesk.com/genuine/autocad
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  They list POOR PERFORMANCE as a risk of non-genuine autocad software but actually, I'd say it's the opposite, usually removing all telemetry tends to improve performance. I'd also love to see the actual data behind their claims of "Companies that install nonvalid software on their network face a 1 in 3 chance of obtaining malware.*" Not that I'm endorsing pirating software like this in a professional setting.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    I heard ;-) … the adobe software runs better when the cloud crap is not installed. The genuine adobe software installs a load of cloud sync something and it crippled every pc I had. Even ultra beefy machines with 16 threads, loads of ram and gpu power.
davelondon 4y ago
This is ridiculous. I've done some FEA analysis models in Fusion 360 and simple models are way quicker when ran locally. Like 5 seconds vs 30 seconds.
adastra22 4y ago
Is there anyone interested in working on an open source alternative to Fusion 360, Solidworks, etc.? A Blender for CAD/CAM? There’s a real need for this.
- zksmk 4y ago
  FreeCAD[1] is the most advanced in my opinion. The next release is also supposed to solve the longstanding topological naming issue, and finally be the first 1.0 version. [1]https://www.freecad.org/ https://www.freecad.org/
  - adastra22 4y ago
    FreeCAD is just a parametric modeler with export capability. There are an ecosystem of plugins to provide various CAM capabilities, and finite element modeling like the OP is about, but it's not integrated together like Fusion 360 is. I think the current state of open-source CAD/CAM is a looong way from matching what Solidworks or Fusion 360 can do out of the box.
- hactually 4y ago
  I'm keen - reach out. Semi FIRE, former Linux hacker type with OpenGL experience.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    Email sent!
- qiller 4y ago
  There are a few parametric CADs already: FreeCAD, etc. I seem to like how SolveSpace works, but it doesn't have CAM...
phs318u 4y ago
I'll just leave this here. https://opensource.com/alternatives/autocad https://opensource.com/alternatives/autocad
- kube-system 4y ago
  > Open source computer-aided design software may have everything you actually need. Quite the sales pitch. I always pick FOSS first, but, even as a hobbyist I find myself limited by the feature set of FOSS options in this space. And I hardly even know what half of the features in Fusion 360’s menus even do.
mechhacker 4y ago
I figured this would happen sooner or later. As someone who runs mechanical FEA when necessary, I know why some companies are reluctant to use this particular CAD/simulation package. A lot of industries have export restrictions, and non-local storage or use of export restricted hardware designs is a significant federal penalty. Ansys and abaqus, older competitors than fusion simulation, will have local solves for this reason.
basicplus2 4y ago
Actcad is pretty good and very reasonbly priced, and uses all the same commands as autocad
TrevorFSmith 4y ago
FreeCAD has local simulation. Don't like the UI? Pitch in or fund the team.
wly_cdgr 4y ago
Crack that shit, fuck them
bandrami 4y ago
They... uh... know that Autodesk is used in a lot of airgapped SCIFs, right? This was always our problem with moving flight simulators to pure SAAS: if the Air Force couldn't use it we couldn't afford to make it.
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  Presumably air-gapped installs will not receive the update to disable the feature.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  You'll just have to purchase the Autodesk™℠ for Government TS Plus Premium package! At the low, low cost of $1 million per Core Processor Licensing Unit [1]. [1] https://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/contracts/processor-core-factor-table-070634.pdf https://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/contracts/processor-core...
- bdowling 4y ago
  > This was always our problem with moving flight simulators to pure SAAS: if the Air Force couldn't use it we couldn't afford to make it. Why not make a custom build that connects to a local server? The Air Force can probably pay whatever fee you ask if they want it enough.
  - bandrami 4y ago
    I argued that but it kept running in to some contractual problem that was several miles above my paygrade (I think the short version was it had to meet their definition of COTS which precludes any kind of custom build).
causality0 4y ago
you can explore the cloud solve options, which utilize the same solvers as the local solvers had previously. They're not even pretending it's some kind of fancy big-computer advantage.
- function_seven 4y ago
  Somebody there probably worked at EA previously. Here's the conversation: "I know, we'll focus on the incredible compute power that only The Cloud can provide! We can say... 'reduce your capex by leveraging our best-in-class simulation engine. Your existing commodity hardware just got a lot more powerful.', or some such bullshit. Whaddyathink?" "No go. We tried that with Sims 4, and it just pissed off our user base even more. This move isn't going to make friends; best we just rip the band-aid off and avoid fluffy justifications."
technerder 4y ago
I really do hope this finally pushes the open source community to create a viable and enjoyable to use 3D CAD modelling software. I work with code a lot but I was never really able to get into OpenSCAD, and FreeCAD crashes too often for my liking in addition to having a (in my opinion) unintuitive UI/workflow. I've moved on to Solidworks (student edition as I am a student) for now but am still keeping an eye out for alternatives.
- alsaffar 4y ago
  This a 3D modeling program I’m enjoying: https://solvespace.com https://solvespace.com
- stitched2gethr 4y ago
  Which ones are you contributing to?
  - technerder 4y ago
    I've been trying to understand the codebase of Solvespace in order to add a feature (combining both windows into one) but I haven't had much time.
    - cube00 4y ago
      > I haven't had much time There lies one of the reasons it's not just a matter of "push[ing] the open source community"
- Accujack 4y ago
  No. A free software CAD/CAM package has been desired for a long time, and no one has ever written something that competes with commercial packages except in token form. To create a quality 3D CAD/CAM program takes more than just competence and interest in having a free product. It takes a small core of very talented people with expertise and experience in building complex software, surrounded by a legion of supporters. Kind of like the Linux kernel project. It's a niche software product that requires significant technical expertise in programming, mathematics, and in UI design. It's nitpicking to debug. The closest anyone has built is Blender, but that's still a far cry from being Fusion 360 or Solidworks. GNU has had a CAD program on their wish list for as long as I can remember... going back to 1990 or before. Unfortunately, the removal of local simulation is more of the same from Autodesk.
humanwhosits 4y ago
Why couldn't Musk have bought Autodesk instead of Twitter, it's about the same price
- userbinator 4y ago
  Musk of Tesla, which will sell you a car with all the parts necessary for a feature and then charge you extra merely for the privilege of using them? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20136223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20136223 He's just as much of a greedy bastard as any other.
cs2818 4y ago
Several years ago I advocated transitioning our academic robotics research lab to using Fusion 360 as our default for design. I regret that choice more and more with every decision like this. We are rarely affected by these changes on our academic license, but I hate to see students invest in a tool that may suddenly become unreasonable to continue using later.
- lqr 4y ago
  During my PhD, the lab invested a lot of software development effort into a closed-source robotics platform that was discontinued [1]. I will try hard to avoid closed platforms in the future. As academics, I feel we should put in our best effort to use and contribute back to open-source platforms. It's not crazy to spend the first year of your PhD adding a feature to an open-source package if it will boost your research productivity for the next 4 years. It's also easier to work around limitations when you only need to run one experiment instead of producing a robust product. [1] Qualcomm Snapdragon Flight, a RPi-sized board with onboard stereo cameras and GPS. The hardware was unbeatable at the time.
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twarge 4y ago
Most galling was that they glued Eagle into fusion and killed off Eagle, the largest EDA tool.
seabird 4y ago
There's a lot of grumbling in here from people that I have to assume don't understand what Fusion 360 is. This was always an uncomfortably cloud-based product. You cannot save files locally with this package. This decision isn't (or at least shouldn't be) blindsiding anybody. There are countless packages from Dassault, Autodesk, PTC, Siemens, Ansys, OpenFOAM, etc. that you can buy perpetual licenses for.
madmod 4y ago
What domains do I need to out in my hosts file to block their updater?
danboarder 4y ago
I see an opportunity and truly hope for an open source CAD/CAM project with similar success to what Blender has achieved on the modeling/animation/rendering side. There are a few CAD /CAM free software efforts but nothing comes close yet that I've seen, which keeps me paying the Autodesk subscription / tax.
jagger27 4y ago
I just wish there was anything remotely close to as ergonomic as Fusion 360.
explodingwaffle 4y ago
Man, I can’t understand what they’re thinking over at Autodesk. Right now I have the student license for Fusion 360- I was (still am to be frank) thinking about becoming a paying customer at some point- occasionally they do a $100 a year sale, which is a far more reasonable price than it is normally. But when they keep pulling crap like this, it makes it real hard to commit to, especially with Onshape existing and SOLIDWORKS having not-terrible personal offerings now. If I were pulling the strings, I’d go all in on trying to convert hobbyists and students- pricing at $100/$150 a year all year round and add a monthly tier for $15/$20. I don’t even mind locking features like simulation behind a paywall- 99% of users designing for 3D printing, 2D manufacturing like laser cutting, and basic CNC machined parts don’t need them (though I’d throw in a few free cloud credits for the value-add, and make them a bit less of a rip-off). What do I know though. One thing I suspect- there are a lot of people using the free license to make money (which is not allowed), so I guess they’re turning the screws on.. their paying customers? Much easier to just make the software good value IMO.
- sebazzz 4y ago
  > One thing I suspect- there are a lot of people using the free license to make money (which is not allowed), so I guess they’re turning the screws on.. their paying customers I don't understand. The free version doesn't have simulation anymore for a while.
halotrope 4y ago
Autodesk are just the worst offenders. I hope Blender will thrive (even more) and CAD software will follow the lead.
abakker 4y ago
It’s funny, I commented on the update release blog where they announced this, and the comment has been “awaiting moderation” ever since. I pay for fusion, and this really sucks. I’m happy to pay for a product I use, but I am not game to get nickel and dimed for features that used to be built in. The software is great, but Autodesk clearly needs some new PMs.
acyou 4y ago
1. Fusion 360 appears to be pivoting towards CAM instead of CAD. Their CAM is getting better all the time. 2. Cloud sharing features in Fusion360 are unparalleled for cooperation between companies, SolidWorks doesn't come anywhere close. 3. Who needs FEA and isn't willing to pay a nominal fee? Anyone using an analysis feature is getting a lot more than what should come with a basic modeling and drawing package. 4. Simulation is definitely not a core feature for designers. It's an edge case, rarely used and is getting pulled further out from core functionality into cost+ territory. 5. With the pathetic Fusion 360 Manage this product seems directionless to me, but that's a separate topic. I see this change as moving even further away from engineers. Autodesk, if you're listening, we (designers and engineers) drive the bus at the end of the day. If you make your product suck for engineers (it does), we can and will move. 6. Refactoring CAD/CAM libraries is hard and involves a lot of technical, monotonous work. That's the "moat", but give me a good direction to move in and I and other designers and engineers will push hard to drop Fusion 360 like a hot potato if things don't turn around.
- m-ee 4y ago
  Do you use Fusion 360 professionally? I'm a former ME and I don't think I've heard of a single company that uses it. Solidworks seem to dominate overwhelmingly with ProE/Creo coming in second. I'm curious if this is a regional or industry thing.
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
I cannot overstate how good for humanity it would be to have good open source 3D CAD. I kind of think/hope that eventually we will move to all open source software, but it may be a very long time. I can’t imagine how many engineering projects around the globe will suffer because of this one decision. This decision is a net negative for humanity.
eggy 4y ago
I just sent in a request for a refund of the balance on my one-year subscription that I just purchased a month ago. Unfortunately it is over the 30-days in their purchase refund policy by just one day. Hopefully they honor it, and then I am purchasing Rhino, and I will use my free FEA options (Calculix, openFoam, Lisa 8.0 (I bought this for less than $100USD. Demo is free for 1000 nodes perpetually), and believe it or not, Mathematica has some cool ways of FEM/FEA techniques. This is such a creepy way of making money by pissing your customer off. I am getting sick of Autodesk. I once sold Autodesk products (Inventor, Mechanical) in the NYC Tri-state area for six months. My only real true sales job. I was told I was too technical, and to upsell the client! EDIT: I know nTopology is expensive, but has anyone tried it or have experience with it? I am willing to spend money on products that are truly productive and innovative.
- carterschonwald 4y ago
  I’m actually wanting to build my own nTop adjacent tool because I’ve been wanting a programmatic style design tool that uses a similar internal rep (signed distance function), but with a programming sort of Ux to build up shapes on top.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Autodesk, what I liked, is it supported Lisp. Once upon a time, and even then no macros, so it's like...now it's C++... I talked to some Autodesk guys on a ferry, it's all about like getting the building designed correctly the first time to code. Fixing stuff is expensive. It actually makes sense from that perspective there would only be one company encompassing the problem. But why tighten the internet leash? Internet access is a leash.
- danwills 4y ago
  There's SideFX Houdini. It's a VFX software mainly but it's also like an amazingly powerful CG/simulations OS and tools-collection. It can be tried out for free (the full software with only some fairly reasonable limits in my opinion) With a bit of hacker elbow-grease it can be made to read and write things in wildly different formats fairly easily. It can be hard to learn initially! but I would certainly recommend it!
exar0815 4y ago
About a year ago we finally banned Autodesk from our department because of policies like this and the looming cloud lock. We had a good hard look at what we actually needed, and decided to pay significantly more for the whole SOLIDWORKS Shebang, as it integrates well with CST Studio. When it came to EAGLE, we decided on KiCad as it has well developed and currently fits our needs without quite needing Altium.
progman32 4y ago
It's astounding how much disrespect people will tolerate from proprietary software. If someone tried to disable my bike to force me to use their overpriced charter service, I'd call the police... we've somehow convinced ourselves this behavior is fine if it involves a computer. It is good to avoid doing business with people who act in this way. You deserve better. I fell for Fusion 360's siren call years ago... by the time I realized their intentions, I'd made many, many designs in it. Fortunately, I came to my senses and abandoned the account, instead donating the price of 360's license to FreeCAD instead. CAD is a foundational technology. We can't leave it in the hands of some greedy VPs. If you must do business with a vendor of proprietary software, at least choose a company who will see your investment as a mutually beneficial partnership. Autodesk really seems to view your investment as a convenient leverage point to screw you when you're good and vulnerable.
- Banana699 4y ago
  This is one of the areas where piracy is good and moral, as a low-cost vigilante solution to harass corporations who have grown safe and fat. Piracy is a fresh slap on the backside to wake those kind of people up. And this is why all this "muh cloud" bullshit is a nightmare world where you, the client, have 0 leverage or rights or any kind of weight. Aside from the astonishingly dumb UX choice of "You always need a reliable network to do anything" off course.
rcarmo 4y ago
I took some evenings to investigate the state of entry-level CAD software for some 3D designs I need to do, and this is timely—-I have no interest in subscription offerings and find cloud-centric solutions to be too risky in general terms (especially lock in), but Fusion 360 has such a huge user base that I could not ignore it. I will go on investigating FreeCAD, Solverspace and CAD Sketcher for Blender…
staindk 4y ago
I'm late to this thread but wanted to ask in case anyone sees this and has a specific recommendation: Is there a good free/cheap alternative to F360 for me? I use Fusion 360 to model simple things for 3d printing. I've gotten used to it and think it's great when things work, but have been weary of their cloud and buggy "free personal use" licensing stuff since the start. I'll check out some of the other programs mentioned in this thread -- SolveSpace, FreeCAD etc. -- but from a first glance it seems they will all take ages to get used to. Maybe I should try become a Blender god even though IIRC that isn't really set up to do parametric modelling (I have a passing interest in game design etc. so the skill could be useful)?
- dbrueck 4y ago
  I've been using OnShape for the same sort of work. For now at least it's less user-hostile, but it's web based so they could still turn on you. I'm still hopeful that Blender will become a great parametric modeler. Check out the https://www.cadsketcher.com/ https://www.cadsketcher.com/ add-on - it's getting to the point where I might take the leap.
  - staindk 4y ago
    Sweet, will look into those, thanks. I just spent a while in wonder at a node-based parametric design tool for Blender called Sverchok[1] - looks super powerful but wayyyy too much for my 3D printing toothbrush holders and phone stands haha. CAD Sketcher looks much more like what I'm used to. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu_31Cigflc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu_31Cigflc
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  Solid Edge should do what you want. Their CAM is pay-for, but iirc the 3d printing parts are part of the free offering.
  - staindk 4y ago
    Thanks, took a while to find but seems the version to go for is their Community Edition[1]. Had a look at a recent tutorial and it looks great! [1] https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/plmapp/education/solid-edge/en_us/free-software/community https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/plmapp/education/soli...
adsk-throwaway 4y ago
Hi there, Autodesk engineer here. I haven't been here too long, but it's decisions like these which make me ashamed to be associated with this company. I work on a different product, but it feels incredibly odd sometimes to see these kinds of articles, because the engineers I work with are really focused on the end user experience, at least on my team. That being said, I've seen a lot of issues here. First off, our sales force is ridiculously massive. We have 8,000 full time sales people (although they get a fancy title like, solutions expert). In comparison, the number of engineers and UX folks who work on Revit is under 200. We're completely sales-first. Second off, the amount of mid-level managers who have no other dependents besides a manager is astounding. My boss's boss has no other dependents than my boss, and it's the same thing with my boss's boss's boss. Have absolutely no clue what value they add to the org. There's so much political infighting that makes it incredibly hard to get anything accomplished, we have certain teams that refuse to communicate with another team and they literally just go two separate paths instead of following a unified vision. Third, our top level VP's / executive suite have never used Autodesk products before. I'm not kidding about this. I'm 100% that our new CTO, Raji Arasu, has never used any Autodesk product before, based on meetings we've had. Given her background from Intuit, this isn't a huge surprise, but could you imagine if the CTO at Tesla had never driven a Tesla before? I'm not sure how we've gotten to this point. The CEO is literally a rocket scientist from JPL, I can't figure out why he's running the company into this direction of extreme greed. Autodesk is a complete monopoly, and many of the people inside this org are extremely comfortable with the moat that Autodesk has built. I'm not.
- pzh 4y ago
  Autodesk is not a software company but a marketing company. They just buy smaller competitors and repackage their stuff. If you think of them that way, that can make the organizational structure clearer.
kurupt213 4y ago
So…solidworks?
Brian_K_White 4y ago
To think I used to tell a story about how in college I went to there were 2 primary cad packages being used, One was I think CadKey? The other was Autocad (10ish through 12ish for dos). Cadkey required a hardware dongle to run, autocad required a serial number and the floppies were normal and copied fine. "Why don't they copy protect that? what are they stupid?" Everyone in the world (seemingly) had a pirate copy of acad at home for free, and got real good at it, and every small shop that does any sort of drawing even art stuff like sign makers let alone landscapers, architects, urban planers, etc, alllll ended up buying tons of legit licenses because everyone they wanted to hire plus their own selves, all know acad, and no one's even heard of cadkey or whatever that other one was. I used to tell that story as an example of enlightened self interest, deliberately enabling piracy being not only nicer but also making you far richer than fanatically trying to detect and prosecute every tiny instance of "zomg theft!". Either Autodesk was never actually that intentionally nice company I thought they were, or it changed. I have read a few articles from early employees and I think what it really was originally was schizophrenic. It had people with different attitudes at the same time so the company did both good and bad things at the same time, until the douchebags won as they always do and drove the nice guys out.
MasterYoda 4y ago
I was thinking to test Fusion360 personal/home edition. But I have read something that all you do is saved in the cloud. Is this correct or can your things be save privately and locally only? I also think that I have read something that anything you do with the free version is public available but that have to be wrong or I have mixed this up with some other software, or?
- benhurmarcel 4y ago
  You can't save locally, it's all saved in the cloud. However you can download a copy from the cloud afterwards. And no, it doesn't make your designs publicly available.
xdmr 4y ago
They call it Fusion 360 because you turn 360 degrees and walk away
spitfire 4y ago
So Autodesk fusion 360 is opting out of government and defence contracts? I presume there's rules somewhere where parts for the F-22, or HIMARS can't be hosted on some random companies cloud.
iancmceachern 4y ago
Just use Solidworks. They have the largest market share by far, you can find and hire people that have used it to design and ship actual products with it, it has a special startup pricing deal for startups that have raised less then a million, student licenses, and if you need to buy a seat outright they start at 4k, with 1.5k maintenance per year. That's for unlimited use, it's your software. 1.5k for each batch of cloud computers tokens, that's gonna add up fast...
ur-whale 4y ago
Autodesk, already renowned as one of the worst IT companies under the sun finds new and innovative ways to fuck their customers sideways, news at 10.
danwills 4y ago
Oof, that doesn't sound like a popular move! Speaking of simulations though, there is SideFX Houdini? (can probably handle CAD-type stuff a bit nowadays? and certainly lots of types of simulations!) I do hope that SideFX (Houdini) stays independent. Things I've heard suggest that they intend to, and I also hope that they continue on their current trajectory - I think the general direction is very positive! Not perfect of course (and not opensource of course, but very open in practice) A lot of very solid dev seems to happen at SideFX, and a lot is communicated about what's happening, and their support (email contact for when things go wrong) is absolutely STELLAR too!
WFHRenaissance 4y ago
Sinking ship!

365 points by d4a 4y ago

blt 4y ago

How user-hostile. With all this cloud nonsense the need for effort and funding in open-source CAD is greater than ever.

skykooler 4y ago
I wish FreeCAD could get the sort of performance and UI overhauls Blender got.
- stavros 4y ago
  Maybe FreeCAD should start charging businesses for compiled executables.
- blt 4y ago
  I'm not even a CAD user and I'd contribute to some large-scale fundraiser to improve open-source CAD. Hopefully plenty of mechanical engineering shops will see the value in contributing. Expensive specialist developers are needed, but it'll be worth it.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  Does FreeCAD have a foundation that allows for at least a handful of paid enployees to work on it? I think that’s the key to a successful open source desktop app, it has to have long term full time contributors. That requires buy in from industry.
jimmaswell 4y ago
I'm starting to think we need laws saying that functionality that can be done without a cloud subscription must be offered to be allowed to run locally for a reasonable one time payment. No heated seat subscriptions, no photoshop as a service. The future is bleak if this is allowed to continue.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  As long as good competition can be fostered, it doesn't have to be bleak. As much as people complain about the adobe packages, it receives updates frequently and new features all the time and I think the monthly fee is reasonable considering what the old one time fees were.
1-6 4y ago
CadQuery with a GUI sounds really good right now.

daenz 4y ago

And is now token-based. According to this[0], tokens are $3 a pop. A "basic study" simulation costs 3 tokens ($9) and an "advanced study" simulation costs 6 tokens ($18). Imagine how quickly you could rack up charges as you iterate on a design. 0. https://www.autodesk.com/benefits/flex?term=500&tab=flex https://www.autodesk.com/benefits/flex?term=500&tab=flex

BonoboIO 4y ago
Minimum toke buy package: 1.500 DOLLAR
- retbull 4y ago
  They saw raid shadow legends was making more money than them and thought they'd take a page out of their book on micro transactions.
  - deleted 4y ago
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userbinator 4y ago

The perils of SaaS strike again. It used to be that you bought a license, and then the software was yours to use eternally thereafter with zero external dependencies. When will the users learn that SaaS means the software can change at any time out of your control, up to and including not functioning at all, and you will not be able to do anything about it? Or will their minds continue to be "clouded" by the corporate propaganda? I think the question of why people will willingly "build on a shaky foundation" is appropriate, especially given the type of software this is.

stavros 4y ago
This isn't even a SaaS. This is a desktop program with some bullshit inconvenient "save to the cloud" feature that would be better off missing (I have Nextcloud if I really need this, thanks Adobe), and various functionality crippling like removing the local simulation just to force people to rent cloud machines from them. Fuck Autodesk.
- userbinator 4y ago
  That's right, it's SaaS slowly creeping its way in.
  - chii 4y ago
    It's SaaS without the actual aaS. It's not like autodesk's server workload is beneficial to the end user.
spacebeer 4y ago
There are still many good old "offline" CAD programs, some of them points out permanent license as their selling point (Alibre Design, BricsCAD, VariCAD...). When it comes to simulation, there are also many others. I usually use FreeCAD to run simple FEM analysis (it has more possibilities than Solidworks SimulationXpress) Many Fusion users have switched to alternative CAD programs in last year or two. Many of them started using Alibre products, which have quite good pricing (Atom is great choice for hobby users/small workshops). Too bad it's Windows only (like almost all CAD programs). But I think FreeCAD also increased their user-base, which will hopefully help them grow (like Blender). It's really great software, but still missing some features needed for (more) professional work. It's hard for companies to move to another CAD software, but some companies are really pushing their users away :D

thereisnospork 4y ago

Whelp, there goes any interest I had in paying for Fusion360. edit: In the interest of not just whining, does anyone know a competent hobbyist-grade fea/cfd solution? Doesn't have to be free[0], but I'm not going to pay for a license to pay for compute. [0] I've tried open foam once or twice, but couldn't get a decent workflow put together (model > mesh > sim > results).

jlawer 4y ago

For consumers in some jurisdictions they may be able to get refunds on the product if it can be argued that this feature was a core reason the application was purchased. However once you are a business many of those protections aren’t present. There is an assumption that businesses should be able to sort things out amongst themselves and the court system. However an SME barely has any more power then a consumer going against a giant like Autodesk. I wonder if the solution wouldn’t be to extend those protections to smaller businesses, and additionally allow reclaiming the cost of any investments in the platform (Training, etc) and other expenses. Your not telling autodesk what they can do with their product, but if they are selling it based on features they are removing, they will be liable to make right anyone who purchased on that basis.

BonoboIO 4y ago
I think even as a business you would be in the right. Selling you a license and then removing functionality from it after you sold it to them.
- cartoonfoxes 4y ago
  With a fat EULA attached. Insert obligatory definition of product applies to current billing period only, Autodesk reserves the right to add or remove functionality without notice
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    If I have bought a fusion 360 license yesterday for 3 years, they would have to deliver the features for 3 years. But I think they will remove all of it for everyone with 1 month notice.
    - cartoonfoxes 4y ago
      You sure? For a cloud-hosted app like Fusion/360 I would expect that you're only entitled to 3 years of access to PRODUCT_NAME/CURRENT_BUILD, without an option to rollback to older versions (eg. at time of purchase) on request, and almost certainly without reference to specific functionality. Unless they specifically inform you that older release are available, your contract with them absolutely would allow for removal of features.

tinus_hn 4y ago

Wonder how many companies will be forced to drop the app because they don’t allow their designs to be uploaded to the cloud.

jrockway 4y ago
Was that something you could ever do with Fusion 360? Fusion 360 was my introduction to CAD and it has been very cloud-heavy since I started using it. I think they must have some other product for actual companies, competing with Solidworks.
- cartoonfoxes 4y ago
  Inventor is their direct competitor to Solidworks, which afaik can still be run offline.
- dekhn 4y ago
  You can export local f3d files (also STEP, STL, etc, but f3d contains the necessary bits for timeline, etc). I assume AutoCAD is the closest equivalent to SolidWorks that they sell, but I'm not certain. That's the first CAD software I used- back in middle school, so mid-to-late 1980s. They added 3D support and I think it uses the same underlying code to handle 3D structures. Again, not certain- it's not a product I pay any attention to. FWIW, I spend a bunch of time in Fusion 360 and I hadn't really done anything with simulation (it's on the bucket list, but not a priority).
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I feel the same way about simulations. People are mad that Fusion 360 started turning the screws on hobbyists. It is ridiculously expensive for noodling around with your 3D printer once a month. I paid rather than learning some other piece of software, and whether or not simulation is free is not something that particularly bothers me. I'm always considering jumping to something else in the back of my mind; OpenSCAD is most appealing to me, but I like the 2D sketch + extrude model. (All the cool kids are using Onshape now, but I just can't get excited about a browser app. So I keep using Fusion 360, and honestly, I still like it, even if Autodesk is not a shining paragon of software and social excellence.)

anigbrowl 4y ago

Sometimes I feel bad about being so behind the curve on hosting and data storage and running the little python notebook that could on my personal machine, but then I see stuff like this.

wcarss 4y ago

This is with one month of notice? I don't use AutoCAD, so I'm a nobody here, but these sound like pretty important and often-used features to cut (er, transfer to pay-per-use) without _any justification_ whatsoever. Seems like a great move to finally strangle that golden goose that's been kicking around all these years.

zem 4y ago
particularly given this: 8<--------------------------------------------------------- If I am in the middle of a project at the time of this update, can I delay the Fusion 360 update to solve the remaining tasks on my local machine? You can temporarily pause the update by enabling Offline Mode prior to September 6, 2022. This enables you to delay the update, only until you are prompted to reconnect to the Fusion 360 servers (up to 2 weeks after switching offline). You can find more details on how to enable Fusion 360 Offline Mode here: How to work in offline mode in Fusion 360. It is recommended to not rely solely on the limited time you are provided by using the offline mode to complete your project. In the event where you require more time after being prompted to log back in, you can explore the cloud solve options, which utilize the same solvers as the local solvers had previously.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  Exactly, it's common in programs like solidworks to not upgrade for a year or more, until the project is done, then upgrade between projects. Autodesk just ensured that no legit engineering groups will choose fusion for any project of consequence - they can't be trusted.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
Yeah golden goose for AutoCAD, eats all the jewelry in the house. These guys have like super rosy estimates of what kind of bill you can present people with, like David Heinemeier Hanssen, figures "hey $20 a month no big deal" but it's like no $20 is a huge deal. They have an image of America where everybody earns $140000 a year and gets raises no problem, and doesn't get fucked out of practically all of it by the tumor industries--housing, medicine, and education. After the mortgage is paid, after the raise is negotiated, after the college degree turns out does not provide that six-figure paycheck, and after the doctor commits malpractice in a disgusting minute way to get recurring revenue from you, tells you a really sleazy lie to get you on the hook--after all that extortion, people really don't have $20 for a software license left at the end of the month. . Especially because those tumor industries price discriminate, as we all know tumors tend to squeeze. So it's the realtor trying to fuck you and refusing to show you nice houses you can afford, plus asking 6% commission on a house which of course means he's playing for the other team pumping up the price, telling you to show up with signed checks and shit, and of course blocking development to keep the inventory expensive, they have plenty of time for that. Then the bank extorting you whoops we can't process your mortgage relief act whoops your rate came in 1% higher--banks which can't even compute interest rates correctly, even in Stanford it's so embarrassing, and they just fetishistically want the highest interest rate they can get, so they give you like "incentives" shit, like give you money when you sign the demonic contracts. . Which are common in all these tumor industries, they're full of debt full of contracts, full of people staring you down--people on whose faces is imprinting the savage betrayal and harm they secretly do to those who can't pay[1]--and figure out exactly how many thousands they can get out of you. Plus they align with your boss--your boss offers you a ride home, now he knows where you live and can talk to the landlord, make sure you never benefit from a raise. Bosses pay for insurance, and the privacy is just not there, the costs bleed out so if you've had illness you're a liability, also because you can be out of work longer and in a justified way. Plus it's a super important factor, the insurance, because it binds you to the job in depressions so he can be more exploitative--bosses love depressions, get people to fucking work and never even think of asking for a raise--and insurance for employees is more than the wage itself in many cases. Then the final and most tumescent industry, education, actually demands you answer all kinds of intimate questions to figure out how much it can extract from "you" meaning the student's parents, for the benefit of the son, who is the one who actually gets fucked if there's delinquency on payment. Tumor industries. You can't just jack up your price way above inflation forever--AutoCAD and I would say SaaS in general is about finished with their vendor-lock-in phase--the contracts are signed--now comes the tumor phase. Adobe and AutoCAD are just the beginning. [1] Ambulances 100% leave people on the side of the road dying when they get enough info on the patient to know they can get away with it (like someone who's been evicted), if he doesn't sign the digital thing getting on the hook for their $1200 taxi ride. You can see it in their face, that's how they get people to sign, by sometimes carrying out the threats they're implying with their shitty attitude. The whole game is pretending there's a choice when actually you and they both tacitly know you're fucked if you don't. They only have to do it a few times per paramedic--and there's magic spells that allow them to do it, like maybe special places that are OK for dumping the dying like they can do a special diagnosis claim you're fine turn around and leave you back at your house--but they do do it or otherwise people wouldn't cooperate like they do. They wouldn't have a legit coercive stare.

joebob42 4y ago

This is a fairly core feature they're removing from a product they already sold. I also liked that they don't make any attempt at claiming this is for any reason other than more money. No "oh our new models are too powerful to run locally" or "oh for security reasons" or whatever. Which would be pretty transparent bullshit but I think a lot of companies would try anyways. This literally admits that the cloud functionality is identical, just paid per use. Imo if you bought the product in this state, fine, but if you bought it before they probably ought to have to grandfather you in forever.

eastbound 4y ago
It is not fine. - Corporations do this for recurring revenue, but also because software IP is easier to protect in the cloud where no-one can decompile the code, - But it’s a hell for customers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- frankharv 4y ago
  What happens when Autodesk Cloud is hacked and your model is stolen. Who would put something of so much value as the original model in the cloud? Will AutoDesk reimburse you when cloud is hacked and your design stolen?
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    I already thought this was outrageous just on principle, but holy cow this point you just raised pushes it over the top. This point alone should end all conversations dead without even a hint of a maybe or calculation. "I will go back to pencils and drafting boards before I put my entire companies primary assets on anyone else's server." * 1m companies. Imagine if github owned git and removed the local repo other than the current checked out hash?

lizardactivist 4y ago

This could make Autodesk a no-go for companies that make designs for defense or critical infrastructure, where sharing the design with Autodesk (or any other entity) is not an option. Companies that are not based in the US in particular will probably start looking at Solidworks, if they have not done so already.

stavros 4y ago
Nah, Fusion already has "cloud save" exclusively, so that ship has long sailed. You can't not share your designs with them, AFAIK.
cartoonfoxes 4y ago
No-one in these spaces was using Fusion/360 to begin with. Aero and defense are mostly CATIA 5 and Pro/ENGINEER (Creo), with offline PDM.
- CapricornNoble 4y ago
  Friendly reminder that CATIA[1], which was used to design the Eurofighter Typhoon, runs really well under Wine. I'm sure that's not 100% feature-equivalent to the latest Autodesk Fusion, but at least you can run it locally without getting raked over the coals by the software company. [1] https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=6153 https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...
- mgreenleaf 4y ago
  I did hear this week that Autodesk Construction Cloud is currently banned from military projects (was in use and is not currently permitted) because of something to do with security policies; but I didn't find out what exactly was in violation, does anyone happen to know what the issue is/was?
1-6 4y ago
Revit is such a terrible tool that there’s an entire ecosystem of AddIns that support the pathetic program. Autodesk hasn’t since made significant improvements. They probably don’t even have enough C# programmers to update the codebase.

BonoboIO 4y ago

Mind you, a token is $3/piece. You can only buy them in packs of 500 and higher, and they expire in a year’s time. Something that I’ve noticed is that you used to be able to buy 100 tokens, but they removed that option some time ago, too.

gnu8 4y ago
It speaks to financial desperation more than cynical profit grubbing. They need to juice sales and fully recognize the income to remain solvent.
akira2501 4y ago
Tell me Autodesk has a monopoly without telling me Autodesk has a monopoly.
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  That's the thing, they don't! There's a lot of options in this space. Ansys, Dassault SOLIDWORKS (though they're trying to push the cloud model, lmao), Siemens. Smaller devs like zw3d which plug into dedicated sim packages (it's not like f360's is that comprehensive). Why don't people move? It's not like a super free market, but there's a bunch of options in the space.
  - bsder 4y ago
    Because you could get Fusion360 for $500 per year but the equivalent in Solidworks cost $5K base+$5k for CAM+$5K for modeling+$5K for ... Solidworks is the monopoly and it was only the insertion of Fusion360 that broke it. Solidworks is so entrenched that they still haven't reduced their prices even though Fusion360 is absolutely killing them at the low end. > Why don't people move? It's not like a super free market, but there's a bunch of options in the space. I'd love to hear about them and throw some money at them. Before Fusion360, I knew of basically nothing at the low end.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago

BonoboIO 4y ago

Their cloud is extremely slow, even saving a simple object as STL to print is slow. If you save it via the export as workaround it takes milliseconds to save. If you save it via the default menu you are in for a 2 minute wait where their cloud is doing something and then it generates the same file. Absurd.

amadeusw 4y ago
The local export is not just faster, it's functionally better: there are a few useful options you can tweak. The one option I'm using local export for is increasing detail, e.g. to get a very round object without noticeable edges around the perimeter.

api 4y ago

The cloud is DRM.

cyanydeez 4y ago
It's kinda amusing to think most crypto currency are essentially DRM tools.

jwitthuhn 4y ago

As someone who is mostly familiar with autodesk's M&E division which is responsible for 3ds Max and Maya, it is comforting to see that the other parts of autodesk also hate their customers.

BonoboIO 4y ago
Which is a mutual relationship

inamberclad 4y ago

Man, Autodesk has been making all the wrong moves recently. What is going on over there?

cartoonfoxes 4y ago
Lately? Autodesk has been a user-hostile company for a long time.
- 1-6 4y ago
  They’ve milked AutoCAD and Revit long enough. Time for alternatives.

sonofhans 4y ago

This is a new low, truly more dystopian than I imagined software could ever get. Imagine this becoming a pattern. You have software you need for work, and the company behind it wants more money — so they pick the most popular feature and make it pay-per-use. It’s horrifying. I hope this fails fast and hard, as a lesson to other companies. I doubt it, though. I ran IT at a big architecture firm 25 years ago, and everyone hated Autodesk then. That hasn’t changed — most architects still hate Autodesk, even if they have to or choose to get value from Autodesk products. At that point AutoCAD still used dongles for licensing. If you upgraded a license you had to have both dongles plugged in. Some computers with multiple upgrades had multiple dongles hanging off the back, and I had to build custom dongle supports so they wouldn’t fall out and deauth a machine in the middle of someone’s work. So yeah, even with that history, this surprises and horrifies me.

coreyisthename 4y ago
My old man owns a successful firm and has hated autodesk for as long as I can remember. He told me the prices like 20 years ago and I was blown away. No idea what they are today, but I imagine they’re much higher and much more “nickel and dimey”
horsawlarway 4y ago
This is rapidly becoming the "norm". Why do you think basically every software product coming out these days is "SaaS"? It turns out that "SaaS" is basically equivalent to "we're rent seeking - we won't do more work, but we will rake in more revenue". My prediction is that we're going to force the learning curve of tech on the general population (also already happening) because just like those who couldn't read were heavily abused by those who could - those who can't host their own software are being abused by those who can.
- asah 4y ago
  Meh. 20% annual maintenance is classic for on-prem enterprise software.
- legutierr 4y ago

mr_tristan 4y ago

As a hobbyist who used Fusion 360 for various woodworking design and CNC tasks, this doesn’t really impact me, however, it basically pushes me a lot closer to investing in other tools. Basically, pulling features without much communication or forewarning is just not OK. Part of me wonders about the feasibility of an open source business based around paid support and training of a complex professional tool. I know of cases this works for tools aimed at software engineers, but I’d be curious if that was really attempted with CAD

sent-hil 4y ago
> Part of me wonders about the feasibility of an open source business based around paid support and training of a complex professional tool. I know of cases this works for tools aimed at software engineers, but I’d be curious if that was really attempted with CAD Solidworks isn't open source, but they provide support and training. So it's possible of open source business to do the same.
loonster 4y ago
https://myigetit.com/ https://myigetit.com/ They do it for the big cad programs.

TOMDM 4y ago

I swear, the companies in 3d software tooling adjacent industries must almost _want_ Blender to eat their lunch. If affected companies banded together to pay in even 10% of what they currently pay Autodesk towards working with the blender foundation, we'd see it all in FOSS within 2 years. Coordination problems are hard though. Only time will tell how hard people will actually push back.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jahewson 4y ago
CAD is fundamentally different from mesh-based 3D. You’d have to start from scratch. Plus the physics simulations are serious, not video game stuff. There’s also a minefield of patents to contend with. Nor can you forge your own path if you want people’s models to be compatible (and I mean mathematically, not just file formats).
- physicsguy 4y ago
  It’s not even just patents, most of these software share solid modelling kernels. The Siemens tools mostly use ParaSolid. Dassault’s use CGM. There’s all sorts of inter licensing deals in this space.
kube-system 4y ago
Blender is not CAD/CAM software.
- TOMDM 4y ago
  I'm aware, however there have been a couple efforts now to introduce CAD tooling into Blender. https://github.com/hlorus/CAD_Sketcher https://github.com/hlorus/CAD_Sketcher https://github.com/EleotleCram/blender-cad-tools https://github.com/EleotleCram/blender-cad-tools I'm not suggesting that they are ready for professional use, just that I don't think the Autodesk moat is as deep as some might assume, and that if there was a concerted community effort Blender could accomplish those tasks.

sent-hil 4y ago

As someone who uses and relies on Fusion for work, it's frustrating how customer hostile Autodesk is. And this is on top of their subscription price increase they announced in March. A part of me wants to reimplement the tool holders for ToolWall[1] in OpenSCAD[2] and be done with it with Autodesk forever. [1] - https://toolwallhq.com https://toolwallhq.com [2] - https://openscad.org https://openscad.org

hactually 4y ago
If you know folk in the industry - I'd be keen to know what work needs funding to be enough to move from Autodesk to OpenSCAD or similar
- jker 4y ago
  I’ve been using OnShape, which is pretty nice.
- sent-hil 4y ago
  Fusion supports a wide range of use case from CAD to CAM and others. None of open source tools (FreeCad, OpenSCAD, Opencad etc.) come close to matching Fusion's features. I don't think most even support CAM which I need for CNC tool paths. Happy to chat more if you're interested in it.
  - hactually 4y ago
    I'm keen to connect - my email is on my profile if you'd like to. Just connected to another via this same thread. I do wonder if there's enough engineers that started in the 00's and are now almost retired looking to work on righting some wrongs in our industry :D
    - OJFord 4y ago
      > engineers that started in the 00's and are now almost retired That's a different take on age discrimination in hiring than I'm used to seeing!

bilsbie 4y ago

Is this a feature we could add to openscad? Seems like a lot of people would be willing to pay someone to add it.

kube-system 4y ago
The people who want simulation in Fusion 360 probably didn’t pick it over openscad for that one feature. They’re very different tools.
lostapathy 4y ago
It’s not really. OpenSCAD is awesome but you can’t even model a true circle or export a solid that’s useful for CAM.

BonoboIO 4y ago

I like their [0] anti piracy page. So disconnect from reality with their pricing. [0] https://www.autodesk.com/genuine/autocad https://www.autodesk.com/genuine/autocad

nicolas_t 4y ago
They list POOR PERFORMANCE as a risk of non-genuine autocad software but actually, I'd say it's the opposite, usually removing all telemetry tends to improve performance. I'd also love to see the actual data behind their claims of "Companies that install nonvalid software on their network face a 1 in 3 chance of obtaining malware.*" Not that I'm endorsing pirating software like this in a professional setting.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  I heard ;-) … the adobe software runs better when the cloud crap is not installed. The genuine adobe software installs a load of cloud sync something and it crippled every pc I had. Even ultra beefy machines with 16 threads, loads of ram and gpu power.

davelondon 4y ago

This is ridiculous. I've done some FEA analysis models in Fusion 360 and simple models are way quicker when ran locally. Like 5 seconds vs 30 seconds.

adastra22 4y ago

Is there anyone interested in working on an open source alternative to Fusion 360, Solidworks, etc.? A Blender for CAD/CAM? There’s a real need for this.

zksmk 4y ago
FreeCAD[1] is the most advanced in my opinion. The next release is also supposed to solve the longstanding topological naming issue, and finally be the first 1.0 version. [1]https://www.freecad.org/ https://www.freecad.org/
- adastra22 4y ago
  FreeCAD is just a parametric modeler with export capability. There are an ecosystem of plugins to provide various CAM capabilities, and finite element modeling like the OP is about, but it's not integrated together like Fusion 360 is. I think the current state of open-source CAD/CAM is a looong way from matching what Solidworks or Fusion 360 can do out of the box.
hactually 4y ago
I'm keen - reach out. Semi FIRE, former Linux hacker type with OpenGL experience.
- adastra22 4y ago
  Email sent!
qiller 4y ago
There are a few parametric CADs already: FreeCAD, etc. I seem to like how SolveSpace works, but it doesn't have CAM...

phs318u 4y ago

I'll just leave this here. https://opensource.com/alternatives/autocad https://opensource.com/alternatives/autocad

kube-system 4y ago
> Open source computer-aided design software may have everything you actually need. Quite the sales pitch. I always pick FOSS first, but, even as a hobbyist I find myself limited by the feature set of FOSS options in this space. And I hardly even know what half of the features in Fusion 360’s menus even do.

mechhacker 4y ago

I figured this would happen sooner or later. As someone who runs mechanical FEA when necessary, I know why some companies are reluctant to use this particular CAD/simulation package. A lot of industries have export restrictions, and non-local storage or use of export restricted hardware designs is a significant federal penalty. Ansys and abaqus, older competitors than fusion simulation, will have local solves for this reason.

basicplus2 4y ago

Actcad is pretty good and very reasonbly priced, and uses all the same commands as autocad

TrevorFSmith 4y ago

FreeCAD has local simulation. Don't like the UI? Pitch in or fund the team.

wly_cdgr 4y ago

Crack that shit, fuck them

bandrami 4y ago

They... uh... know that Autodesk is used in a lot of airgapped SCIFs, right? This was always our problem with moving flight simulators to pure SAAS: if the Air Force couldn't use it we couldn't afford to make it.

LeoPanthera 4y ago
Presumably air-gapped installs will not receive the update to disable the feature.
ceeplusplus 4y ago
You'll just have to purchase the Autodesk™℠ for Government TS Plus Premium package! At the low, low cost of $1 million per Core Processor Licensing Unit [1]. [1] https://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/contracts/processor-core-factor-table-070634.pdf https://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/contracts/processor-core...
bdowling 4y ago
> This was always our problem with moving flight simulators to pure SAAS: if the Air Force couldn't use it we couldn't afford to make it. Why not make a custom build that connects to a local server? The Air Force can probably pay whatever fee you ask if they want it enough.
- bandrami 4y ago
  I argued that but it kept running in to some contractual problem that was several miles above my paygrade (I think the short version was it had to meet their definition of COTS which precludes any kind of custom build).

causality0 4y ago

you can explore the cloud solve options, which utilize the same solvers as the local solvers had previously. They're not even pretending it's some kind of fancy big-computer advantage.

function_seven 4y ago
Somebody there probably worked at EA previously. Here's the conversation: "I know, we'll focus on the incredible compute power that only The Cloud can provide! We can say... 'reduce your capex by leveraging our best-in-class simulation engine. Your existing commodity hardware just got a lot more powerful.', or some such bullshit. Whaddyathink?" "No go. We tried that with Sims 4, and it just pissed off our user base even more. This move isn't going to make friends; best we just rip the band-aid off and avoid fluffy justifications."

technerder 4y ago

I really do hope this finally pushes the open source community to create a viable and enjoyable to use 3D CAD modelling software. I work with code a lot but I was never really able to get into OpenSCAD, and FreeCAD crashes too often for my liking in addition to having a (in my opinion) unintuitive UI/workflow. I've moved on to Solidworks (student edition as I am a student) for now but am still keeping an eye out for alternatives.

alsaffar 4y ago
This a 3D modeling program I’m enjoying: https://solvespace.com https://solvespace.com
stitched2gethr 4y ago
Which ones are you contributing to?
- technerder 4y ago
  I've been trying to understand the codebase of Solvespace in order to add a feature (combining both windows into one) but I haven't had much time.
  - cube00 4y ago
    > I haven't had much time There lies one of the reasons it's not just a matter of "push[ing] the open source community"
Accujack 4y ago
No. A free software CAD/CAM package has been desired for a long time, and no one has ever written something that competes with commercial packages except in token form. To create a quality 3D CAD/CAM program takes more than just competence and interest in having a free product. It takes a small core of very talented people with expertise and experience in building complex software, surrounded by a legion of supporters. Kind of like the Linux kernel project. It's a niche software product that requires significant technical expertise in programming, mathematics, and in UI design. It's nitpicking to debug. The closest anyone has built is Blender, but that's still a far cry from being Fusion 360 or Solidworks. GNU has had a CAD program on their wish list for as long as I can remember... going back to 1990 or before. Unfortunately, the removal of local simulation is more of the same from Autodesk.

humanwhosits 4y ago

Why couldn't Musk have bought Autodesk instead of Twitter, it's about the same price

userbinator 4y ago
Musk of Tesla, which will sell you a car with all the parts necessary for a feature and then charge you extra merely for the privilege of using them? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20136223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20136223 He's just as much of a greedy bastard as any other.

cs2818 4y ago

Several years ago I advocated transitioning our academic robotics research lab to using Fusion 360 as our default for design. I regret that choice more and more with every decision like this. We are rarely affected by these changes on our academic license, but I hate to see students invest in a tool that may suddenly become unreasonable to continue using later.

lqr 4y ago
During my PhD, the lab invested a lot of software development effort into a closed-source robotics platform that was discontinued [1]. I will try hard to avoid closed platforms in the future. As academics, I feel we should put in our best effort to use and contribute back to open-source platforms. It's not crazy to spend the first year of your PhD adding a feature to an open-source package if it will boost your research productivity for the next 4 years. It's also easier to work around limitations when you only need to run one experiment instead of producing a robust product. [1] Qualcomm Snapdragon Flight, a RPi-sized board with onboard stereo cameras and GPS. The hardware was unbeatable at the time.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

twarge 4y ago

Most galling was that they glued Eagle into fusion and killed off Eagle, the largest EDA tool.

seabird 4y ago

There's a lot of grumbling in here from people that I have to assume don't understand what Fusion 360 is. This was always an uncomfortably cloud-based product. You cannot save files locally with this package. This decision isn't (or at least shouldn't be) blindsiding anybody. There are countless packages from Dassault, Autodesk, PTC, Siemens, Ansys, OpenFOAM, etc. that you can buy perpetual licenses for.

madmod 4y ago

What domains do I need to out in my hosts file to block their updater?

danboarder 4y ago

I see an opportunity and truly hope for an open source CAD/CAM project with similar success to what Blender has achieved on the modeling/animation/rendering side. There are a few CAD /CAM free software efforts but nothing comes close yet that I've seen, which keeps me paying the Autodesk subscription / tax.

jagger27 4y ago

I just wish there was anything remotely close to as ergonomic as Fusion 360.

explodingwaffle 4y ago

Man, I can’t understand what they’re thinking over at Autodesk. Right now I have the student license for Fusion 360- I was (still am to be frank) thinking about becoming a paying customer at some point- occasionally they do a $100 a year sale, which is a far more reasonable price than it is normally. But when they keep pulling crap like this, it makes it real hard to commit to, especially with Onshape existing and SOLIDWORKS having not-terrible personal offerings now. If I were pulling the strings, I’d go all in on trying to convert hobbyists and students- pricing at $100/$150 a year all year round and add a monthly tier for $15/$20. I don’t even mind locking features like simulation behind a paywall- 99% of users designing for 3D printing, 2D manufacturing like laser cutting, and basic CNC machined parts don’t need them (though I’d throw in a few free cloud credits for the value-add, and make them a bit less of a rip-off). What do I know though. One thing I suspect- there are a lot of people using the free license to make money (which is not allowed), so I guess they’re turning the screws on.. their paying customers? Much easier to just make the software good value IMO.

sebazzz 4y ago
> One thing I suspect- there are a lot of people using the free license to make money (which is not allowed), so I guess they’re turning the screws on.. their paying customers I don't understand. The free version doesn't have simulation anymore for a while.

halotrope 4y ago

Autodesk are just the worst offenders. I hope Blender will thrive (even more) and CAD software will follow the lead.

abakker 4y ago

It’s funny, I commented on the update release blog where they announced this, and the comment has been “awaiting moderation” ever since. I pay for fusion, and this really sucks. I’m happy to pay for a product I use, but I am not game to get nickel and dimed for features that used to be built in. The software is great, but Autodesk clearly needs some new PMs.

acyou 4y ago

1. Fusion 360 appears to be pivoting towards CAM instead of CAD. Their CAM is getting better all the time. 2. Cloud sharing features in Fusion360 are unparalleled for cooperation between companies, SolidWorks doesn't come anywhere close. 3. Who needs FEA and isn't willing to pay a nominal fee? Anyone using an analysis feature is getting a lot more than what should come with a basic modeling and drawing package. 4. Simulation is definitely not a core feature for designers. It's an edge case, rarely used and is getting pulled further out from core functionality into cost+ territory. 5. With the pathetic Fusion 360 Manage this product seems directionless to me, but that's a separate topic. I see this change as moving even further away from engineers. Autodesk, if you're listening, we (designers and engineers) drive the bus at the end of the day. If you make your product suck for engineers (it does), we can and will move. 6. Refactoring CAD/CAM libraries is hard and involves a lot of technical, monotonous work. That's the "moat", but give me a good direction to move in and I and other designers and engineers will push hard to drop Fusion 360 like a hot potato if things don't turn around.

m-ee 4y ago
Do you use Fusion 360 professionally? I'm a former ME and I don't think I've heard of a single company that uses it. Solidworks seem to dominate overwhelmingly with ProE/Creo coming in second. I'm curious if this is a regional or industry thing.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

I cannot overstate how good for humanity it would be to have good open source 3D CAD. I kind of think/hope that eventually we will move to all open source software, but it may be a very long time. I can’t imagine how many engineering projects around the globe will suffer because of this one decision. This decision is a net negative for humanity.

eggy 4y ago

I just sent in a request for a refund of the balance on my one-year subscription that I just purchased a month ago. Unfortunately it is over the 30-days in their purchase refund policy by just one day. Hopefully they honor it, and then I am purchasing Rhino, and I will use my free FEA options (Calculix, openFoam, Lisa 8.0 (I bought this for less than $100USD. Demo is free for 1000 nodes perpetually), and believe it or not, Mathematica has some cool ways of FEM/FEA techniques. This is such a creepy way of making money by pissing your customer off. I am getting sick of Autodesk. I once sold Autodesk products (Inventor, Mechanical) in the NYC Tri-state area for six months. My only real true sales job. I was told I was too technical, and to upsell the client! EDIT: I know nTopology is expensive, but has anyone tried it or have experience with it? I am willing to spend money on products that are truly productive and innovative.

carterschonwald 4y ago
I’m actually wanting to build my own nTop adjacent tool because I’ve been wanting a programmatic style design tool that uses a similar internal rep (signed distance function), but with a programming sort of Ux to build up shapes on top.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
Autodesk, what I liked, is it supported Lisp. Once upon a time, and even then no macros, so it's like...now it's C++... I talked to some Autodesk guys on a ferry, it's all about like getting the building designed correctly the first time to code. Fixing stuff is expensive. It actually makes sense from that perspective there would only be one company encompassing the problem. But why tighten the internet leash? Internet access is a leash.
danwills 4y ago
There's SideFX Houdini. It's a VFX software mainly but it's also like an amazingly powerful CG/simulations OS and tools-collection. It can be tried out for free (the full software with only some fairly reasonable limits in my opinion) With a bit of hacker elbow-grease it can be made to read and write things in wildly different formats fairly easily. It can be hard to learn initially! but I would certainly recommend it!

exar0815 4y ago

About a year ago we finally banned Autodesk from our department because of policies like this and the looming cloud lock. We had a good hard look at what we actually needed, and decided to pay significantly more for the whole SOLIDWORKS Shebang, as it integrates well with CST Studio. When it came to EAGLE, we decided on KiCad as it has well developed and currently fits our needs without quite needing Altium.

progman32 4y ago

It's astounding how much disrespect people will tolerate from proprietary software. If someone tried to disable my bike to force me to use their overpriced charter service, I'd call the police... we've somehow convinced ourselves this behavior is fine if it involves a computer. It is good to avoid doing business with people who act in this way. You deserve better. I fell for Fusion 360's siren call years ago... by the time I realized their intentions, I'd made many, many designs in it. Fortunately, I came to my senses and abandoned the account, instead donating the price of 360's license to FreeCAD instead. CAD is a foundational technology. We can't leave it in the hands of some greedy VPs. If you must do business with a vendor of proprietary software, at least choose a company who will see your investment as a mutually beneficial partnership. Autodesk really seems to view your investment as a convenient leverage point to screw you when you're good and vulnerable.

Banana699 4y ago
This is one of the areas where piracy is good and moral, as a low-cost vigilante solution to harass corporations who have grown safe and fat. Piracy is a fresh slap on the backside to wake those kind of people up. And this is why all this "muh cloud" bullshit is a nightmare world where you, the client, have 0 leverage or rights or any kind of weight. Aside from the astonishingly dumb UX choice of "You always need a reliable network to do anything" off course.

rcarmo 4y ago

I took some evenings to investigate the state of entry-level CAD software for some 3D designs I need to do, and this is timely—-I have no interest in subscription offerings and find cloud-centric solutions to be too risky in general terms (especially lock in), but Fusion 360 has such a huge user base that I could not ignore it. I will go on investigating FreeCAD, Solverspace and CAD Sketcher for Blender…

staindk 4y ago

I'm late to this thread but wanted to ask in case anyone sees this and has a specific recommendation: Is there a good free/cheap alternative to F360 for me? I use Fusion 360 to model simple things for 3d printing. I've gotten used to it and think it's great when things work, but have been weary of their cloud and buggy "free personal use" licensing stuff since the start. I'll check out some of the other programs mentioned in this thread -- SolveSpace, FreeCAD etc. -- but from a first glance it seems they will all take ages to get used to. Maybe I should try become a Blender god even though IIRC that isn't really set up to do parametric modelling (I have a passing interest in game design etc. so the skill could be useful)?

dbrueck 4y ago
I've been using OnShape for the same sort of work. For now at least it's less user-hostile, but it's web based so they could still turn on you. I'm still hopeful that Blender will become a great parametric modeler. Check out the https://www.cadsketcher.com/ https://www.cadsketcher.com/ add-on - it's getting to the point where I might take the leap.
- staindk 4y ago
  Sweet, will look into those, thanks. I just spent a while in wonder at a node-based parametric design tool for Blender called Sverchok[1] - looks super powerful but wayyyy too much for my 3D printing toothbrush holders and phone stands haha. CAD Sketcher looks much more like what I'm used to. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu_31Cigflc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu_31Cigflc
Blackthorn 4y ago
Solid Edge should do what you want. Their CAM is pay-for, but iirc the 3d printing parts are part of the free offering.
- staindk 4y ago
  Thanks, took a while to find but seems the version to go for is their Community Edition[1]. Had a look at a recent tutorial and it looks great! [1] https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/plmapp/education/solid-edge/en_us/free-software/community https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/plmapp/education/soli...

adsk-throwaway 4y ago

Hi there, Autodesk engineer here. I haven't been here too long, but it's decisions like these which make me ashamed to be associated with this company. I work on a different product, but it feels incredibly odd sometimes to see these kinds of articles, because the engineers I work with are really focused on the end user experience, at least on my team. That being said, I've seen a lot of issues here. First off, our sales force is ridiculously massive. We have 8,000 full time sales people (although they get a fancy title like, solutions expert). In comparison, the number of engineers and UX folks who work on Revit is under 200. We're completely sales-first. Second off, the amount of mid-level managers who have no other dependents besides a manager is astounding. My boss's boss has no other dependents than my boss, and it's the same thing with my boss's boss's boss. Have absolutely no clue what value they add to the org. There's so much political infighting that makes it incredibly hard to get anything accomplished, we have certain teams that refuse to communicate with another team and they literally just go two separate paths instead of following a unified vision. Third, our top level VP's / executive suite have never used Autodesk products before. I'm not kidding about this. I'm 100% that our new CTO, Raji Arasu, has never used any Autodesk product before, based on meetings we've had. Given her background from Intuit, this isn't a huge surprise, but could you imagine if the CTO at Tesla had never driven a Tesla before? I'm not sure how we've gotten to this point. The CEO is literally a rocket scientist from JPL, I can't figure out why he's running the company into this direction of extreme greed. Autodesk is a complete monopoly, and many of the people inside this org are extremely comfortable with the moat that Autodesk has built. I'm not.

pzh 4y ago
Autodesk is not a software company but a marketing company. They just buy smaller competitors and repackage their stuff. If you think of them that way, that can make the organizational structure clearer.

kurupt213 4y ago

So…solidworks?

Brian_K_White 4y ago

To think I used to tell a story about how in college I went to there were 2 primary cad packages being used, One was I think CadKey? The other was Autocad (10ish through 12ish for dos). Cadkey required a hardware dongle to run, autocad required a serial number and the floppies were normal and copied fine. "Why don't they copy protect that? what are they stupid?" Everyone in the world (seemingly) had a pirate copy of acad at home for free, and got real good at it, and every small shop that does any sort of drawing even art stuff like sign makers let alone landscapers, architects, urban planers, etc, alllll ended up buying tons of legit licenses because everyone they wanted to hire plus their own selves, all know acad, and no one's even heard of cadkey or whatever that other one was. I used to tell that story as an example of enlightened self interest, deliberately enabling piracy being not only nicer but also making you far richer than fanatically trying to detect and prosecute every tiny instance of "zomg theft!". Either Autodesk was never actually that intentionally nice company I thought they were, or it changed. I have read a few articles from early employees and I think what it really was originally was schizophrenic. It had people with different attitudes at the same time so the company did both good and bad things at the same time, until the douchebags won as they always do and drove the nice guys out.

MasterYoda 4y ago

I was thinking to test Fusion360 personal/home edition. But I have read something that all you do is saved in the cloud. Is this correct or can your things be save privately and locally only? I also think that I have read something that anything you do with the free version is public available but that have to be wrong or I have mixed this up with some other software, or?

benhurmarcel 4y ago
You can't save locally, it's all saved in the cloud. However you can download a copy from the cloud afterwards. And no, it doesn't make your designs publicly available.

xdmr 4y ago

They call it Fusion 360 because you turn 360 degrees and walk away

spitfire 4y ago

So Autodesk fusion 360 is opting out of government and defence contracts? I presume there's rules somewhere where parts for the F-22, or HIMARS can't be hosted on some random companies cloud.

iancmceachern 4y ago

Just use Solidworks. They have the largest market share by far, you can find and hire people that have used it to design and ship actual products with it, it has a special startup pricing deal for startups that have raised less then a million, student licenses, and if you need to buy a seat outright they start at 4k, with 1.5k maintenance per year. That's for unlimited use, it's your software. 1.5k for each batch of cloud computers tokens, that's gonna add up fast...

ur-whale 4y ago

Autodesk, already renowned as one of the worst IT companies under the sun finds new and innovative ways to fuck their customers sideways, news at 10.

danwills 4y ago

Oof, that doesn't sound like a popular move! Speaking of simulations though, there is SideFX Houdini? (can probably handle CAD-type stuff a bit nowadays? and certainly lots of types of simulations!) I do hope that SideFX (Houdini) stays independent. Things I've heard suggest that they intend to, and I also hope that they continue on their current trajectory - I think the general direction is very positive! Not perfect of course (and not opensource of course, but very open in practice) A lot of very solid dev seems to happen at SideFX, and a lot is communicated about what's happening, and their support (email contact for when things go wrong) is absolutely STELLAR too!

WFHRenaissance 4y ago

Sinking ship!