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YouTube removes criticism of dangerous fractal wood burning, but leaves up tips

682 points by PretzelFisch 4y ago

elif 4y ago
It's terrible how little basic electronic safety is practiced in virtually all of these videos. When we handled high amps in university, we had 3 hours of lecture first simply explaining safety precautions and how to handle accidents. Not to mention, the burnt wood looks so gaudy and uninteresting. I would hardly call it fractal as it only goes 2-3 levels usually, and artistically doesn't usually make sense on furniture etc.
- api 4y ago
  Wait until more DIY EV servicing videos start appearing. If you short something across a decent size EV battery it will be converted into plasma and deposited on your face.
  - ngvrnd 4y ago
    where your face recently was.
  - xxs 4y ago
    EV is DC, and DC sparks are a thing of beauty as they lack self-extinguishing properties unlike AC sparks.
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      why is that? I couldn't find any info about this
      - kragen 4y ago
        50Hz AC drops to zero volts 100 times a second, which makes the arc easier to extinguish. "Self-extinguishing" is a deadly exaggeration, though, as you know if you've ever seen a high-tension line being connected or disconnected. Arcs are only self-extinguishing when they deplete their energy source or destroy what they're arcing to.
      - 1-more 4y ago
        Caveat: I'm kinda dumb and this is a Cunningham's law situation. tl;dr Because in a DC situation the current is always high so the temperature through the air is always high so the air remains a plasma and remains a good conductor the whole time. OK I = V/R is how we talk about currents. Current (I) equals the potential (V) over the resistance (R). An electrical spark is where the potential across an air gap is high enough that the air—normally a good insulator and thus a poor conductor—breaks down into plasma. In that state, the air is hot enough that the electrons that would be bound to the atomic nuclei can flow the way electrons in metal do. This means that the resistance of that air gap goes from being a high number to being a low number. In the case of a DC spark, we have a constant high potential and with the plasma state a low resistance, so I = V/R = big/small = big current. Since we are putting a high current through a conductor, the temperature of the conductor goes up, and the plasma remains a plasma. It stays a good conductor the whole time. In the case of an AC spark the AC potential goes from some big positive number of volts, to zero volts, to some big negative number of volts, to zero volts, to some big positive number…you get the idea. At some point I=V/R goes from being big/small to zero/small, which can be long enough for the air to cool off and stop being a plasma and be a bad conductor. So when V is a big (positive or negative) number again in 1/4 of the period of the signal (probably 1/60/4 = 1/240 seconds) the air might be too cool to conduct the current. Then V/R would be Big/HUGE = effectively zero current. Remember: I'm just some weirdo online. This is not advice. Don't mess around with electricity.
- throwaway9870 4y ago
  It probably should have been more than 3 hours given that you likely mean "voltage" not "amps". Before everyone jumps on me, "it is the amps that kill you, not voltage", I understand electricity quite well and in this context, saying something like "handling high amps in a university" is almost certainly not what was taught.
  - philistine 4y ago
    Also, it's not electronic safety, its straight up electrical safety. There are no electronics in a magnetron.
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      Even with power electronics we still say electrical safety
      - elif 4y ago
        It was a class on embedded electronics and robotics. There are more hazards in electronics than merely electrical hazards. e.g. exploding capacitors, toxic fumes, etc.
    - kragen 4y ago
      A magnetron is a vacuum tube which works by swirling space charge around. Vacuum tubes are "electronics"; the word "electronics" was originally invented to distinguish vacuum tubes (where it matters that the charges are being carried by electrons) from previous electrical devices such as relays, resistors, condensers, motors, generators, and inductors, where you can pretty much ignore the nature of the charge carriers.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      Surely the magnetron itself is an electronic device.
  - raldi 4y ago
    Rather than admonishing everyone for wondering the obvious question, why not just explain your reasoning?
- tantalor 4y ago
  Electronic -> electrical
- effingwewt 4y ago
  I think the people replying to you to nitpick are missing the forest for the trees. You (and many people) have to wait until university to learn this stuff if you didn't seek it out yourself (how-to's and electives in school). This kind of knowledge should be taught at a young age to demystify it. A few hours in uni (and how many people never even go), to learn life-saving information When I did appliance repair microwaves were treated as bombs. You didn't test your components live, you always unplugged first, etc. Still walked into another tech working on one (cabinet-mounted up high), with the cover off, barely on a wobbly stove-dolly and his expensive Fluke multimeter out with leads in hand. I noticed the plug still lifted up into the cabinet so I peeked in and sure enough it was plugged in. Big red warning signs on the power cable, the covers inside and the cover outside all had warnings. Dude had been through the same training I had, and still thought it was a good idea. "I'll just stay away from the high side",he said. edit to add this microwave had an external fuse. All you had to do was unscrew it and check the fuse inside- which was bad. He hadn't had to do any of the stuff he'd done prior to my arrival. They'd had an electrical surge when the power had gone out and the fuse had caught it. This tech had been on the job longer than I. end edit Even people trained and with knowledge make mistakes and sometimes are just plain stupid. People without knowledge can be dangers to themselves and others. Texas had a rash of house explosions a few years ago from people raiding copper and power wires from empty houses with live gas lines. I think the answer is educating and many people as possible, from as young an age as possible.
  - hedora 4y ago
    A friend of a friend disassembled a microwave to repair it, and accidentally put one of the radiation shields back on backwards. It ended up killing his wife (lots of cancers) a few years later. So, yeah. Don't repair microwaves. It's really not worth the $100's you'll save on a replacement.
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      How would he know the microwave was the cause?
    - Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
- 1-more 4y ago
  > Not to mention, the burnt wood looks so gaudy and uninteresting. I would hardly call it fractal as it only goes 2-3 levels usually, and artistically doesn't usually make sense on furniture etc. There's some point I could make about how this is the worst art anyone has ever died for in history, but we'd end up in the weeds.
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    I'd be interested in trekking through those weeds. Anyone have a contender for worse deadly art?
    - 1-more 4y ago
      My weeds were a bit more like how in our current cultural moment our (US centric) romantic ideas are now their worst versions. Entrepreneurship: join an MLM or become a crypto weirdo or try to start a drop shipping business as advertised in a YouTube preroll ad; Self sustenance: make a bunch of consumer choices that mark you as an individualist while doing nothing to make yourself self sustaining; political engagement: be a shitposter or maybe become a conspiracy freak since it's mainstream now; passionate self expression: die making high effort, high risk, zero reward, looks-worse-than-woodburning-by-a-mile arts and crafts that are on top of it all incredibly cliché. At least Luis Jiménez's deadly mustang sculpture looks cool!
dazzawazza 4y ago
Big Clive has a good video on why this is dangerous and how to make it more safe. Note: not safe safe, just more safe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro
- danuker 4y ago
  "slightly less dangerous"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  I like Big Clive (and Electroboom) because they know how to be safe, but do the stupid thing anyways (safely) to show how bad the ideas are.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    I can't watch Electroboom because he always gives himself shocks in every video. Don't care that they are small or it's set up, I can't stand watching it, makes me ill. Seems to be interesting stories he's telling otherwise though, so it's a shame.
    - donatj 4y ago
      Why so? That’s honestly the whole reason I started watching him years ago, he was the dude who shocked himself.
      - jakear 4y ago
        They’re an empath
    - ntoskrnl 4y ago
      I'm a fan of ElectroBoom, but I have to agree, some of them are pretty horrifying to watch. The Jacob's Ladder video sticks out in my mind - I still can't decide whether it was staged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1z47U_kZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1z47U_kZQ
rvz 4y ago
The whole point of the 'trusted news initiative' [0] is to combat the so called 'fake news', and disinformation and to replace that (or at least flag these videos as 'misleading') with actual fact checked articles, videos, etc. What is happening here is the direct opposite of the TNI [0] and especially YouTube is removing videos unveiling the dangers in these fractal wood-burning videos and are instead promoting these absolutely hazardous and high risk videos whilst still aiding and 'sharing dangerous falsehoods.'. This isn't the only occurrence but it's quite clear that YouTube as well as the rest of the TNI is a giant failure in stopping disinformation and are instead doing the exact opposite. The TNI should not be trusted in the first place and is now a disinformation source. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/beyondfakenews/trusted-news-initiative/about-us/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/beyondfakenews/trusted-news-initiative...
- headsoup 4y ago
  Just about all occurrences have been so, it just depends what you believe. Entirely obvious irony in naming it 'Trusted News Initiative' like a good old 'Honest Al's Second-hand Cars!'
  - hedora 4y ago
    Marketing 101: Any adjective with a positive connotation in a brand name or marketing copy is a lie. "Easy to assemble", "quiet operation", "durable nonstick coating"," trustworthy computing", "digital rights", etc, etc.
carrolldunham 4y ago
I noticed I feel literally unsafe watching any DIY video on there now that the dislikes are gone. I realize I'm proceeding in a place where I relied on a warning system that has been taken away.
- usrn 4y ago
  Don't you have empathy for poor creators like the executive branch of the US federal government though? The dislike button was making things rough for them.
  - toxik 4y ago
    I swear, the YouTube staff was just salty about the ratios on their cringe-fest Rewind videos.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      It was probably turning corporations off the platform entirely since turning the likes off looked bad and leaving them on created risk.
      - gruez 4y ago
        But you could already disable likes/dislikes if you want
        toxik 4y ago
        Turning them off, like turning comments off, makes you look like you’re afraid of what people will say about your video. … Which is exactly the case, but they don't want it to look like that.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    What?
    - 4y ago
avsteele 4y ago
It could easily be the case that a popular channel warning 'DON'T DO THIS' could make the situation worse by telling more people about an idea they would never have heard of otherwise. The fact that some (presumably less seen) videos haven't been removed (yet) doesn't change this calculus.
- mcherm 4y ago
  That is a very creative excuse but it cannot explain why this video which described the dangers of the practice and did not explain in detail how to go about doing. It would be removed when none of the videos that demonstrate how to do this were taken down. I think a much more plausible explanation is that YouTube simply does not have an effective mechanism for deciding what videos to take down and which ones to leave up.
  - headsoup 4y ago
    And yet they've decided they should have the authority and mandate to do so. You can't automate good moderation.
- starkd 4y ago
  Thats an extremely negative view of people's ability. There's a point where you have to realize you can't protect people from themselves. A video that simply provides knowledge in an accessible way without preaching and condescension does far more than an outright ban that gives the viewer no information.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  The new video shows lots of examples of comments on the original video where people thanked her for warning them not to do it, so it's worth factoring that in. Certainly a couple people will go 'wow, getting killed to make cool wood? sounds sick' and do it but I suspect the number of people scared away is higher.
exar0815 4y ago
When I was young and stupid, I did this. Suddenly felt some tingling sensation in my fingers, threw the leads away and jumped back. Most certainly saved my life and drilled in my head how dangerous it is. Still get a sinking feeling in my stomach whenever I am at some switching station below the 380KV leads, remembering that day. Especially after knowing people who got into 120KV, and what happened to them... Electricity is dangerous. In every form. Period. Keep your fingers away from it when you don't know what you do. Household appliances can not only kill you on the mains side. Microwave transformers, flyback circuits, burner igniters, HV Car Ignition Systems...
- toxik 4y ago
  And remember that RCDs or GFCIs are not the panacea they may seem like at first. All it takes is an unreferenced secondary and voila, ground faults are invisible.
  - hattmall 4y ago
    Can you explain what you mean by unreferenced secondary in this context?
    - jeshin 4y ago
      a galvanically isolated transformer, i.e. a voltage that is not referenced to ground, meaning an RCD/GFCI will not be able to trigger if you touch it and it starts zapping you
- fendy3002 4y ago
  Such as a gun is always loaded, my take is electricity is always dangerous. Even professionals can get into accidents, moreover us uneducated plebs.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    I remember watching some electricians rewiring some stuff at my old workplace. We were moving into a new office, and had to have some light switches changed for the new zone. The electrician popped open the switch plates, yanked out the old switches, clipped the wires, stripped the wires, wired up the new switches, and screwed everything back together. It was all live (like 300 volt live), as the lights turned on (queue spark), as he wired the new switches. He was not wearing gloves. It was all barehanded. It was quick, though. Took, like, a minute.
pornel 4y ago
There is a massive YouTube and Instagram industry of outright faking craft and cooking tips. They're not just bad or a stretch, they're intentionally fabricated, made at scale by TheSoul Publishing with 550 employees. That's because making cool things looking surprisingly easy goes viral way better than actual reality-grounded instructions, and for the adtech giants nothing matters except the number of clicks. Before people realize that they can't really make a 3-layer cake in a toaster, the fakers already cash in on the views. Usually the risk of these faked craft hacks is just cut fingers and kitchen fires, but the "just grab 2000V, it's so easy!" videos take it to another level of lethality.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Just the other day youtube suggested me this cutsie "what to do with old microwaves" video that just had the corporate jingle music over a video of a guy building various things out of microwave transformers without any kind of narration or warning of the danger. Considering people are actually dying trying these microwave tricks, this is no longer a theoretical concern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2UfglFeOH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2UfglFeOH8 (much later the author added a warning saying this is for entertainment only)
  - daemin 4y ago
    "For entertainment only" is such a cop-out, do whatever dangerous thing and show step by step instructions but then slap on a "for entertainment only" on it so you're safe from legal repecussions.
    - b3morales 4y ago
      > you're safe from legal repecussions. Not necessarily: no way to tell whether it's sufficient until it actually goes before a court.
      - starwind 4y ago
        Excellent point. As a matter of legal principle in the United States you can't unilaterally disclaim liability for future injuries. Signs that say "not responsible for accidents on these premises" don't hold up when you run a retail store where people are expected to freely to come and go as they please. More concretely: a perfectly reasonable judge could decide a dangerous step-by-step how-to guide negates the prior "for entertainment purposes only" warning. There's a reason Jackass frequently had skull-and-crossbone warnings and didn't show much of their set up, just the results
addicted 4y ago
Wait, why did YT remove Ann’s video? She doesn’t show how it’s done. She just shows, through drawings, how dangerous it is. WTF Yiutube.
- lancesells 4y ago
  I'm going to guess the people and companies profiting from those videos reported her video.
- mminer237 4y ago
  Because she talks about death, and YouTube can't monetize videos about death.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    And thus, the video was deemed worthless to the whole system (unfortunately). But that's of course short sighted: even a court could find youtube reckless if they selectively remove videos of caution while leaving up dangerous videos; if both are left up they might get off free.
  - gspr 4y ago
    Instead they keep the videos she calls out for causing death. Since at least they don't talk about death. Jesus christ google is a vile company!
- imiric 4y ago
  Google takes 45% of YouTube's advertising revenue. Videos criticizing their most popular channels directly impact their profits. The company doesn't care about protecting content consumers, it only cares about their customers (advertisers) and maximizing profits. They tolerate content creators since they actually get them views, but otherwise they would rather run ads 24/7 if people would watch them.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  youtube effectively has abandoned moderation policy, and just has automated report-driven systems. I bet the video was removed because fractal woodburners with delusions of safety felt angry for being called out, and reported it.
h2odragon 4y ago
Censorship sucks but when its it YouTube's responsibility to protect idiots from themselves? If they removed these videos are they still responsible for people attempting the stunt because they heard about it there six months ago? I demand the freedom to suffer the consequences of my own actions.
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  YouTube has their own policy of taking down content they call “harmful & dangerous,” this person is complaining that they are enforcing it incorrectly by taking down her video talking about the dangers and not taking down or age gating the videos of people showing how to do it. > I demand the freedom to suffer the consequences of my own actions. You will absolutely suffer the consequences of whatever actions you take, I’m not sure why you seem to think YouTube would prevent that.
  - hedora 4y ago
    "harmful & dangerous" to whom?
    - robonerd 4y ago
      People.
CM30 4y ago
YouTube's moderation is ridiculous, and it demonstrates the problem Google has in general. They don't like paying actual people to moderate their sites, and rely on automated systems and bots to do everything for them. So, if there's ever an issue (or you have a bunch of scammers mass reporting you because you debunk their 'work'), then YouTube/Google seems to think you're the problem instead of the scumbags. We need things to change here. We need Google to moderate their services properly, and we need these scammers to get arrested/sued/whatever for misleading info, and putting people's lives at risk.
- deepstack 4y ago
  Or instead use specialised communities that does do moderation like peer tube, odysee.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > We need things to change here. We need Google to moderate their services properly, Human moderation isn’t perfectly consistent, either. It would be extraordinarily expensive to expect YouTube to have humans moderate everything manually. What are people willing to give up in exchange for a human-moderated version of YouTube? Would we be okay if they charged a $3 “moderation fee” on every upload to cover the cost of paying someone to watch the video and evaluate how it fits YouTube’s rules? The big creators wouldn’t care, but the small time videos would immediately stop being uploaded and competitor websites would become popular overnight. I don’t see demands for perfect human moderation of YouTube uploads as realistic in any way.
  - Retric 4y ago
    YouTube could set a views threshold to make manual reviews scale. My guess is 99% of what people watch is the top 0.1% most popular videos which makes things manageable. Highly dangerous video seen by 5,000 people not a big deal. Highly dangerous video seen by 5,000,000 people is.
    - protonfish 4y ago
seedless-sensat 4y ago
Would have loved to see a source of "34 fractal wood burning deaths in America"
- doubleunplussed 4y ago
  Here's a list: https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Materials/Safety-Fractal-Burning-Lichtenburg-Burning.aspx https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Mater...
  - musingsole 4y ago
    Example from the parent's link: """ Upper Caboolture, Queensland, Australia Reported by: Energy Source & Distribution Death: Liam Keegan, age 17 March 23, 2021 """ ^ Many don't list the age, but this one did. And it made me sad.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Imperfect moderation is inevitable at the massive scale of social media companies. YouTube receives an enormous quantity of video every day and it’s clearly impossible to have humans review all of it. If we humans did review every single minute of video, the subjective element of moderation would still lead to headlines like this where someone could identify instances of inconsistencies. Given that she re-uploaded the video and I’m watching it on YouTube right now, I assume the initial moderation strike was more of a mistake. Or more likely, maybe it was reported by a number of people who were upset by it for some reason and it entered an auto-moderation queue. I have a hard time getting too worked up about news stories of singular moderation mistakes. Does anyone realistically expect YouTube to have perfectly consistent moderation? Even HN, a significantly smaller community, has very uneven and inconsistent moderation due to the user-influenced flagging features.
- JCharante 4y ago
  How hard is it to use manual review for videos that have at least a million views?
  - PragmaticPulp 4y ago
    What makes you think they don't use manual review for highly-viewed videos? The video in question wouldn't have triggered that manual review threshold because it's not even close to a million views. I would actually assume that highly-viewed videos are moved up much higher in the manual review priority queue, as it only makes sense. The controversies like the one in the article are generally among moderately popular channels with 10K - 100K views, not in the millions.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      > The video in question wouldn't have triggered that manual review threshold because it's not even close to a million views. What makes you say that? I don't have a source on that specific video, but socialblade says her channel was getting hundreds of thousands of views per day in the week after that video went up, three weeks since her previous video. Edit: Bing cache says 720k as of some point. Archive.org says 1.5 million as of three days ago. I would have set the manual review threshold no higher than 100k anyway.
m0llusk 4y ago
Knowing that microwave oven transformers are extremely dangerous is critically important, so this represents a serious failing of basic education.
- sh4rks 4y ago
  Exactly. I can't sympathise with any of the people who mess around with stuff like this. Surely if you had even the littlest bit of common sense, you would know not to mess around with high voltages without training. To the people saying "mass report all fractal burning videos" - why not also take down videos on surfing, outdoor rock-climbing, and other dangerous sports?
blocked_again 4y ago
I think YouTube/Google has a big leadership crisis at the moment. Removing the dislike counter was the obvious sign.
- onepointsixC 4y ago
  Thank you for reminding me that viewers can't even vote down to try to inform others of how bad those videos are. YT's leadership needs to be replaced.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  With a dislike counter at least that could signal something is amiss with these videos, but now you just see thumbs up everythings cool guys and the comments can be moderated by the uploader to remove anything negative. Still don't understand why they removed it.
  - hedora 4y ago
    Money. Lots of dislikes imply lots of ad views.
    - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
      I've worked in advertising on the creative/client facing side, no one cares if their ad gets disliked. Engagement is engagement. Don't think that's the reason.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        He could've meant that dislikes are a signal to people to not watch the video and those represent a lot of lost engagement.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Downvotes hurt the feelings and egos of enough people with the power/leverage to get it changed. Particularly: politicians, corporations, and youtube executives themselves (e.g. Youtube's Rewind videos getting trashed with mass downvotes.)
micromacrofoot 4y ago
Why is this so hard for these massive companies? A single reasonable person can make better decisions than this.
- pjc50 4y ago
  There's only so many videos a single reasonable person can watch. And once you scale it it's no longer a single reasonable person but a vast army of low-paid content watchers.
- wmeredith 4y ago
  A person is smart, people are dumb. - Agent KA, Men in Black (https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/quote/127467 https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/quote/127467) See also, "None of us is as dumb as all of us." (https://despair.com/products/meetings?variant=4375841505301 https://despair.com/products/meetings?variant=4375841505301)
briandear 4y ago
[flagged]
- mberning 4y ago
mberning 4y ago
They can auto generate warning messages on every video even tangentially referencing the c-word for 2 years, but they let this kind of thing slide for years and years.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Ignoring the politics & posturing, my impression is that the number of people dead due to stupidity about COVID-19 is a few orders of magnitude larger than the number of people dead due to this sort of video.
  - an1sotropy 4y ago
    I don't think the point was about the relative number of dead; I think it the observation that YT clearly has the technology to automatically annotate content, but declines to use it for things (like dangerous hacks) where it could save lives.
    - bell-cot 4y ago
      Reasonable...but I suspect that YT's "technology to automatically annotate..." is actually pretty sucky in the real world - high error rates, lots of (paid hourly) moderation needed, pushback from Legal on "issues and exposure" that it creates, etc. So they're not gonna deploy that tech against hazards which don't have a huge body count and/or political weight behind 'em.
- hedora 4y ago
  Yeah, but they did a terrible job of this. They still push anti vaxxer conspiracy theory crap, but they immediately banned actual tenured scientists with decades of experience writing and reviewing papers on pandemic response. If anything, their treatment of this video is par for the course. They're banning the factually correct content, and pushing popular misinformation that kills people.
richrichardsson 4y ago
I was considering searching for and reporting all "Fractal Wood Burning" videos. But you need to be signed in to flag a video, and there's no way I'm polluting my viewing history (and thus what YT thinks I like) with such shit.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  You can go back and delete the videos from your history and YT should treat it as though you never watched it. I make use of this on occasion when I click a video I really shouldn't have.
- mixedCase 4y ago
  You can delete them from your history, and you can indicate in the feed that you don't want those kinds of videos in it through the three dot menu
mrtksn 4y ago
We really need to finish with this content removal business and simply hold people accountable for the content. In other words, YouTube or any "utility level" platform should not have the right to remove content by its own and just request information to protect itself. For example, if someone is posting about something harmful the videos should remain and the person who does that should face the consequences. It's not just that the platforms suck in judging the content, the more important aspect is that this content is also part of historical record. I would like to be able to watch and examine content from criminals, from fraudsters or pranksters. For example, it's fascinating that Heaven's Gate cult website is still alive and kicking[0]. I'm glad that I can take a look at the real thing but if their mass su*cide happened today, I'm sure that all kind of materials about them would be promptly removed and we will be forced to accept only the official narrative(which might be or might not be correct on this case but that's not the point). None of us would be allowed to read their texts, listen to their conversation and judge it by ourselves. [0] https://www.heavensgate.com https://www.heavensgate.com
- framapotari 4y ago
  > For example, if someone is posting about something harmful the videos should remain and the person who does that should face the consequences. Ok, so now a video is up and people are tricked by it and injure themselves in the process. Some people die. Is that an acceptable cost? Does your solution make any considerations for ongoing harm?
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Sue the person who uploaded the video, as it happens with all the malicious activities with the real world. Sure, we can have tools to reduce risk - maybe there can be a warning under the video that the contents are disputed and some people claimed harm. If those people are lying the video uploader can sue them. Just because some people don't know how to behave and have delusions that nothing is real on the internet, we can't have total speech control in an attempt of "saving the kids". Just as with the real world, people need to develop the right habits to stay safe.
danso 4y ago
> It is extraordinarily dangerous, and dozens of people have been killed following instructions contained in viral videos. Thought this might be an exaggeration (classic “well I’ve never heard of this” brain), but here’s a case that happened just a few months ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna26109 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna26109
- zitsarethecure 4y ago
  The AAW have banned the practice because it is so dangerous and have been maintaining a list of the people killed by it, including at least one professional electrician. https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Materials/Safety-Fractal-Burning-Lichtenburg-Burning.aspx https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Woodturner/Resources/S...
jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
Never trust corporations (or anyone for that matter), even the most well intentioned of ones, to always make rational decisions, even when they hire rational people and write down rational policies.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Disagreed. I see this as perfectly rational in given their business model and regulatory environment they operate in. Their business relies on ad revenue (derived from video views) and they are no regulations that hold them liable for hosting dangerous content, nor for mistakenly-deleted content. Therefore the rational thing to do is let the mistakenly-deleted videos down (reviewing them manually would cost too much) while leaving anything else that doesn't trip the spam filter up (since they generate ad views).
anujkumarscom 4y ago
thanks
justcodin 4y ago
Youtube is an increasingly hot mess.
trinsic2 4y ago
Sorry way to many ads on that site. Like every paragraph...
edianorh 4y ago
Playing with microwaves carries many risks. Even without getting electricity involved, the magnetron contains beryllium oxide which can be fatal to humans if it gets into the lungs. Just to disassemble one, you need to know what the magnetron looks like and not try to disassemble it. Like many other appliances, it has capacitors, which may remain charged for a long time too. Those are dangerous too.
- ugjka 4y ago
  Thank God we didn't have any microwave ovens when I was a kid because I liked to disassemble everything But there was one capacitor from a photo flashlight that was close to killing me if I touched the ends, but thankfully it discharged on my screwdriver
  - edianorh 4y ago
    I got zapped by the capacitor of a photo flash twice. I studied electronics, I was being carefully, and still I messed up. The second time I was being even more careful and I thought the capacitor was discharged. I'm not even sure how it happened, I was holding the PCB by the edges.
    - ugjka 4y ago
      Mine was a bigass capacitor from a mountable flash that plugged into the mains, that thing definitely kills
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  >Just to disassemble one, you need to know what the magnetron looks like and not try to disassemble it. I know what you’re going for here, but it’s a funny sentence.
madengr 4y ago
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
At what point do we say, "automation as a reason for failure is no longer acceptable"? Edit: That is, when the published information is wrong, false, and was not taken down, or was taken down...
- wmeredith 4y ago
  I'm not sure why that was ever an acceptable excuse. If you automate something and it gets people killed, where does the absolution come in, exactly? "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" segment of Fantasia is quite illustrative about the dangers of automation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX2yVucz24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX2yVucz24
whiddershins 4y ago
34 people killed is a pretty surprising number. Is it fair to refer to the makers of the videos as murderers? On a moral, if not legal, level?
- kazinator 4y ago
  If they contributed to the takedown of the critical video which informs about the dangers and deaths then I don't find myself able to casually dismiss the accusation of murder (as I would were that not the case).
- wmeredith 4y ago
  I'm not sure murder is the right crime here. Seems more passive like willfull neglect or something. Not a lawyer.
- bedast 4y ago
  That's 34 known and only in the US, as noted by Ann. Her new video notes 30 in the UK and more in Australia (where she lives). And it can't be reiterated enough, this is those that are known to be caused by this. It makes you wonder how many other electrocutions or fires were caused by this without noting this as the source, whether known or not. Unfortunately, I don't think there's precedence nor law that places liability on these people.
mihaic 4y ago
I'm only now leaning of this phenomenon, and I'm absolutely floored that something like fractal wood burning has claimed the lives of 34 people (known), and there's a general laisse-faire attitude around it. By itself this is close to the deadliest mass shootings in the history of the United States in terms of human casualties, even though the emotional impact is not the same.
- chmod600 4y ago
  Some kinds of deaths are more "media-ready" than others. Deaths from mass-shootings, terrorism, plane crashes, and shark attacks are given too much weight. Deaths from falls, drowning, and medical mistakes are given too little weight. Even within categories it's inconsistent. Most deaths by gunshot are suicides. And almost all murders by gunshot are ordinary pistols as part of ordinary criminal activity (not mass shooters).
radicalbyte 4y ago
Is there any way to filter out certain Youtube channels such that they cannot be viewed in your house? My kids like some of TheSoul channels and I'm not particularly happy with them watching content created by Russians.
geocrasher 4y ago
BigCliveDotCom has an excellent video about this: "The most deadly project on the Internet" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro
Linda703 4y ago
[dead]
bell-cot 4y ago
At scale, whack-a-mole take-downs and trying to idiot-proof the internet just feel kinda futile. A suggested (IANAL) alternative, for "dangerous ways to maim or kill yourself" YouTube content: - A "Report Being A Dangerous Thing To Try" YouTube page - with a few drop-downs, to summarize why it's dangerous. (High Voltage, Poison, Explosive, Fire Hazard, Dangerous Animals, Motor Vehicle Stunts, etc.) - Verified-as-dangerous videos stay up, but get a few seconds of skull-and-crossbones warning. With a death count, and "report yet another death" link. That last has a high enough bar ("crippled-for-life doesn't count, include official death certificate and certified police or medical report, ...") to make it clear that there are real dead bodies behind that body count. Unstated goal: Encourage less-stupid people to realize that following cool-sounding directions from the internet could maim or kill them. Whether or not anyone has yet gone to the effort required to get a specific video flagged as deadly.
- FranticFervor 4y ago
  Warnings like these can become diluted if the context of these reports are not specific enough. Listing rock climbing free solo deaths on videos of people top rope climbing will get an eye roll from people and make it easier to disregard. It's also not fair to communities that understand the risks of what they are doing to see these reminders of dangers they are already aware of.
YeahNO 4y ago
Someone made a commercial fractal wood burning device years ago. It had very long handled probes (1-2 ft.) and a pedal for switching on the power (there might have been a main power switch inline on the device itself.) It had a dial to let you crank up the amperage. I think someone did get hurt using it. Reputable art/woodworking events and people do not allow or use fractal wood burning because the inherent risk is so high.
throwawayffffas 4y ago
So are the authors of the fractal wood burning videos criminally negligent?
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  What of the publishers?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
justAlittleCom 4y ago
I am sorry but I strongly disagree with most comments here. I do a lot of things potentially extremely dangerous, like burning wood with a microwave, or driving a motorcycle, or playing with hydrogen and oxygen in stoichiometric ratio, I tried to melt a wrench with a 12V battery, and all that makes me a better engineer and a better person, more aware of the weakness of flesh and how reality is scary and how it dont care about our stupid meaty body. I feel I see a lot of class contempt here, "those stupid people dont know that it's dangerous, they should stick with devices conceived by us. We educated people put stupid warning labels on it just for them". Of course, those poor soul should have been more aware of the danger, but censuring those video, or forbidding them to play with microwave, is that really what we want ? Anybody should be aware about the basic physics, that's the real problem here. I dont want to see moral video "dont do that because it's wrong", I would more video like "look at that how dangerous it is, and also, how cool is that". About electroboom, I am the only one to think that being zapped again and again does a really poor job at passing the message "electricity is dangerous and can kill you"? If some people dont understand the dangerousity of electricity, maybe they just learnt from electroboom. I much prefer the channel "diode gone wild".
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Trying to be charitable but this is insane. I'm not against people taking risks as long as it's very clear what risks they're taking, and as long as the reward is worth it (for any reasonable definition of "worth it"). Pretty much everyone knows how dangerous motorcycles are, and plans (or doesn't, but still their choice) accordingly. The whole point of Ann Reardon's video is that tons of people tried this, and at least 60+ died, without having any concept of how dangerous it actually is. That is also evidenced by many of the videos showing, for example, bare legs and bare hands inches away from lethal contact. On the "worth it" side of things, obviously that's subjective, and I think the original patterns are neat, but it seems very much a "you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all" type of effect. Are you honestly saying that you think a substantial risk of death is worth it here?
  - justAlittleCom 4y ago

682 points by PretzelFisch 4y ago

elif 4y ago

It's terrible how little basic electronic safety is practiced in virtually all of these videos. When we handled high amps in university, we had 3 hours of lecture first simply explaining safety precautions and how to handle accidents. Not to mention, the burnt wood looks so gaudy and uninteresting. I would hardly call it fractal as it only goes 2-3 levels usually, and artistically doesn't usually make sense on furniture etc.

api 4y ago
Wait until more DIY EV servicing videos start appearing. If you short something across a decent size EV battery it will be converted into plasma and deposited on your face.
- ngvrnd 4y ago
  where your face recently was.
- xxs 4y ago
  EV is DC, and DC sparks are a thing of beauty as they lack self-extinguishing properties unlike AC sparks.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    why is that? I couldn't find any info about this
    - kragen 4y ago
      50Hz AC drops to zero volts 100 times a second, which makes the arc easier to extinguish. "Self-extinguishing" is a deadly exaggeration, though, as you know if you've ever seen a high-tension line being connected or disconnected. Arcs are only self-extinguishing when they deplete their energy source or destroy what they're arcing to.
    - 1-more 4y ago
      Caveat: I'm kinda dumb and this is a Cunningham's law situation. tl;dr Because in a DC situation the current is always high so the temperature through the air is always high so the air remains a plasma and remains a good conductor the whole time. OK I = V/R is how we talk about currents. Current (I) equals the potential (V) over the resistance (R). An electrical spark is where the potential across an air gap is high enough that the air—normally a good insulator and thus a poor conductor—breaks down into plasma. In that state, the air is hot enough that the electrons that would be bound to the atomic nuclei can flow the way electrons in metal do. This means that the resistance of that air gap goes from being a high number to being a low number. In the case of a DC spark, we have a constant high potential and with the plasma state a low resistance, so I = V/R = big/small = big current. Since we are putting a high current through a conductor, the temperature of the conductor goes up, and the plasma remains a plasma. It stays a good conductor the whole time. In the case of an AC spark the AC potential goes from some big positive number of volts, to zero volts, to some big negative number of volts, to zero volts, to some big positive number…you get the idea. At some point I=V/R goes from being big/small to zero/small, which can be long enough for the air to cool off and stop being a plasma and be a bad conductor. So when V is a big (positive or negative) number again in 1/4 of the period of the signal (probably 1/60/4 = 1/240 seconds) the air might be too cool to conduct the current. Then V/R would be Big/HUGE = effectively zero current. Remember: I'm just some weirdo online. This is not advice. Don't mess around with electricity.
throwaway9870 4y ago
It probably should have been more than 3 hours given that you likely mean "voltage" not "amps". Before everyone jumps on me, "it is the amps that kill you, not voltage", I understand electricity quite well and in this context, saying something like "handling high amps in a university" is almost certainly not what was taught.
- philistine 4y ago
  Also, it's not electronic safety, its straight up electrical safety. There are no electronics in a magnetron.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Even with power electronics we still say electrical safety
    - elif 4y ago
      It was a class on embedded electronics and robotics. There are more hazards in electronics than merely electrical hazards. e.g. exploding capacitors, toxic fumes, etc.
  - kragen 4y ago
    A magnetron is a vacuum tube which works by swirling space charge around. Vacuum tubes are "electronics"; the word "electronics" was originally invented to distinguish vacuum tubes (where it matters that the charges are being carried by electrons) from previous electrical devices such as relays, resistors, condensers, motors, generators, and inductors, where you can pretty much ignore the nature of the charge carriers.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Surely the magnetron itself is an electronic device.
- raldi 4y ago
  Rather than admonishing everyone for wondering the obvious question, why not just explain your reasoning?
tantalor 4y ago
Electronic -> electrical
effingwewt 4y ago
I think the people replying to you to nitpick are missing the forest for the trees. You (and many people) have to wait until university to learn this stuff if you didn't seek it out yourself (how-to's and electives in school). This kind of knowledge should be taught at a young age to demystify it. A few hours in uni (and how many people never even go), to learn life-saving information When I did appliance repair microwaves were treated as bombs. You didn't test your components live, you always unplugged first, etc. Still walked into another tech working on one (cabinet-mounted up high), with the cover off, barely on a wobbly stove-dolly and his expensive Fluke multimeter out with leads in hand. I noticed the plug still lifted up into the cabinet so I peeked in and sure enough it was plugged in. Big red warning signs on the power cable, the covers inside and the cover outside all had warnings. Dude had been through the same training I had, and still thought it was a good idea. "I'll just stay away from the high side",he said. edit to add this microwave had an external fuse. All you had to do was unscrew it and check the fuse inside- which was bad. He hadn't had to do any of the stuff he'd done prior to my arrival. They'd had an electrical surge when the power had gone out and the fuse had caught it. This tech had been on the job longer than I. end edit Even people trained and with knowledge make mistakes and sometimes are just plain stupid. People without knowledge can be dangers to themselves and others. Texas had a rash of house explosions a few years ago from people raiding copper and power wires from empty houses with live gas lines. I think the answer is educating and many people as possible, from as young an age as possible.
- hedora 4y ago
  A friend of a friend disassembled a microwave to repair it, and accidentally put one of the radiation shields back on backwards. It ended up killing his wife (lots of cancers) a few years later. So, yeah. Don't repair microwaves. It's really not worth the $100's you'll save on a replacement.
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    How would he know the microwave was the cause?
  - Tabular-Iceberg 4y ago
1-more 4y ago
> Not to mention, the burnt wood looks so gaudy and uninteresting. I would hardly call it fractal as it only goes 2-3 levels usually, and artistically doesn't usually make sense on furniture etc. There's some point I could make about how this is the worst art anyone has ever died for in history, but we'd end up in the weeds.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  I'd be interested in trekking through those weeds. Anyone have a contender for worse deadly art?
  - 1-more 4y ago
    My weeds were a bit more like how in our current cultural moment our (US centric) romantic ideas are now their worst versions. Entrepreneurship: join an MLM or become a crypto weirdo or try to start a drop shipping business as advertised in a YouTube preroll ad; Self sustenance: make a bunch of consumer choices that mark you as an individualist while doing nothing to make yourself self sustaining; political engagement: be a shitposter or maybe become a conspiracy freak since it's mainstream now; passionate self expression: die making high effort, high risk, zero reward, looks-worse-than-woodburning-by-a-mile arts and crafts that are on top of it all incredibly cliché. At least Luis Jiménez's deadly mustang sculpture looks cool!

dazzawazza 4y ago

Big Clive has a good video on why this is dangerous and how to make it more safe. Note: not safe safe, just more safe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro

danuker 4y ago
"slightly less dangerous"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
colejohnson66 4y ago
I like Big Clive (and Electroboom) because they know how to be safe, but do the stupid thing anyways (safely) to show how bad the ideas are.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  I can't watch Electroboom because he always gives himself shocks in every video. Don't care that they are small or it's set up, I can't stand watching it, makes me ill. Seems to be interesting stories he's telling otherwise though, so it's a shame.
  - donatj 4y ago
    Why so? That’s honestly the whole reason I started watching him years ago, he was the dude who shocked himself.
    - jakear 4y ago
      They’re an empath
  - ntoskrnl 4y ago
    I'm a fan of ElectroBoom, but I have to agree, some of them are pretty horrifying to watch. The Jacob's Ladder video sticks out in my mind - I still can't decide whether it was staged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1z47U_kZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1z47U_kZQ

rvz 4y ago

The whole point of the 'trusted news initiative' [0] is to combat the so called 'fake news', and disinformation and to replace that (or at least flag these videos as 'misleading') with actual fact checked articles, videos, etc. What is happening here is the direct opposite of the TNI [0] and especially YouTube is removing videos unveiling the dangers in these fractal wood-burning videos and are instead promoting these absolutely hazardous and high risk videos whilst still aiding and 'sharing dangerous falsehoods.'. This isn't the only occurrence but it's quite clear that YouTube as well as the rest of the TNI is a giant failure in stopping disinformation and are instead doing the exact opposite. The TNI should not be trusted in the first place and is now a disinformation source. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/beyondfakenews/trusted-news-initiative/about-us/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/beyondfakenews/trusted-news-initiative...

headsoup 4y ago
Just about all occurrences have been so, it just depends what you believe. Entirely obvious irony in naming it 'Trusted News Initiative' like a good old 'Honest Al's Second-hand Cars!'
- hedora 4y ago
  Marketing 101: Any adjective with a positive connotation in a brand name or marketing copy is a lie. "Easy to assemble", "quiet operation", "durable nonstick coating"," trustworthy computing", "digital rights", etc, etc.

carrolldunham 4y ago

I noticed I feel literally unsafe watching any DIY video on there now that the dislikes are gone. I realize I'm proceeding in a place where I relied on a warning system that has been taken away.

usrn 4y ago
Don't you have empathy for poor creators like the executive branch of the US federal government though? The dislike button was making things rough for them.
- toxik 4y ago
  I swear, the YouTube staff was just salty about the ratios on their cringe-fest Rewind videos.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    It was probably turning corporations off the platform entirely since turning the likes off looked bad and leaving them on created risk.
    - gruez 4y ago
      But you could already disable likes/dislikes if you want
      - toxik 4y ago
        Turning them off, like turning comments off, makes you look like you’re afraid of what people will say about your video. … Which is exactly the case, but they don't want it to look like that.
- pjc50 4y ago
  What?
  - 4y ago

avsteele 4y ago

It could easily be the case that a popular channel warning 'DON'T DO THIS' could make the situation worse by telling more people about an idea they would never have heard of otherwise. The fact that some (presumably less seen) videos haven't been removed (yet) doesn't change this calculus.

mcherm 4y ago
That is a very creative excuse but it cannot explain why this video which described the dangers of the practice and did not explain in detail how to go about doing. It would be removed when none of the videos that demonstrate how to do this were taken down. I think a much more plausible explanation is that YouTube simply does not have an effective mechanism for deciding what videos to take down and which ones to leave up.
- headsoup 4y ago
  And yet they've decided they should have the authority and mandate to do so. You can't automate good moderation.
starkd 4y ago
Thats an extremely negative view of people's ability. There's a point where you have to realize you can't protect people from themselves. A video that simply provides knowledge in an accessible way without preaching and condescension does far more than an outright ban that gives the viewer no information.
kevingadd 4y ago
The new video shows lots of examples of comments on the original video where people thanked her for warning them not to do it, so it's worth factoring that in. Certainly a couple people will go 'wow, getting killed to make cool wood? sounds sick' and do it but I suspect the number of people scared away is higher.

exar0815 4y ago

When I was young and stupid, I did this. Suddenly felt some tingling sensation in my fingers, threw the leads away and jumped back. Most certainly saved my life and drilled in my head how dangerous it is. Still get a sinking feeling in my stomach whenever I am at some switching station below the 380KV leads, remembering that day. Especially after knowing people who got into 120KV, and what happened to them... Electricity is dangerous. In every form. Period. Keep your fingers away from it when you don't know what you do. Household appliances can not only kill you on the mains side. Microwave transformers, flyback circuits, burner igniters, HV Car Ignition Systems...

toxik 4y ago
And remember that RCDs or GFCIs are not the panacea they may seem like at first. All it takes is an unreferenced secondary and voila, ground faults are invisible.
- hattmall 4y ago
  Can you explain what you mean by unreferenced secondary in this context?
  - jeshin 4y ago
    a galvanically isolated transformer, i.e. a voltage that is not referenced to ground, meaning an RCD/GFCI will not be able to trigger if you touch it and it starts zapping you
fendy3002 4y ago
Such as a gun is always loaded, my take is electricity is always dangerous. Even professionals can get into accidents, moreover us uneducated plebs.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I remember watching some electricians rewiring some stuff at my old workplace. We were moving into a new office, and had to have some light switches changed for the new zone. The electrician popped open the switch plates, yanked out the old switches, clipped the wires, stripped the wires, wired up the new switches, and screwed everything back together. It was all live (like 300 volt live), as the lights turned on (queue spark), as he wired the new switches. He was not wearing gloves. It was all barehanded. It was quick, though. Took, like, a minute.

pornel 4y ago

There is a massive YouTube and Instagram industry of outright faking craft and cooking tips. They're not just bad or a stretch, they're intentionally fabricated, made at scale by TheSoul Publishing with 550 employees. That's because making cool things looking surprisingly easy goes viral way better than actual reality-grounded instructions, and for the adtech giants nothing matters except the number of clicks. Before people realize that they can't really make a 3-layer cake in a toaster, the fakers already cash in on the views. Usually the risk of these faked craft hacks is just cut fingers and kitchen fires, but the "just grab 2000V, it's so easy!" videos take it to another level of lethality.

Gigachad 4y ago
Just the other day youtube suggested me this cutsie "what to do with old microwaves" video that just had the corporate jingle music over a video of a guy building various things out of microwave transformers without any kind of narration or warning of the danger. Considering people are actually dying trying these microwave tricks, this is no longer a theoretical concern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2UfglFeOH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2UfglFeOH8 (much later the author added a warning saying this is for entertainment only)
- daemin 4y ago
  "For entertainment only" is such a cop-out, do whatever dangerous thing and show step by step instructions but then slap on a "for entertainment only" on it so you're safe from legal repecussions.
  - b3morales 4y ago
    > you're safe from legal repecussions. Not necessarily: no way to tell whether it's sufficient until it actually goes before a court.
    - starwind 4y ago
      Excellent point. As a matter of legal principle in the United States you can't unilaterally disclaim liability for future injuries. Signs that say "not responsible for accidents on these premises" don't hold up when you run a retail store where people are expected to freely to come and go as they please. More concretely: a perfectly reasonable judge could decide a dangerous step-by-step how-to guide negates the prior "for entertainment purposes only" warning. There's a reason Jackass frequently had skull-and-crossbone warnings and didn't show much of their set up, just the results

addicted 4y ago

Wait, why did YT remove Ann’s video? She doesn’t show how it’s done. She just shows, through drawings, how dangerous it is. WTF Yiutube.

lancesells 4y ago
I'm going to guess the people and companies profiting from those videos reported her video.
mminer237 4y ago
Because she talks about death, and YouTube can't monetize videos about death.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  And thus, the video was deemed worthless to the whole system (unfortunately). But that's of course short sighted: even a court could find youtube reckless if they selectively remove videos of caution while leaving up dangerous videos; if both are left up they might get off free.
- gspr 4y ago
  Instead they keep the videos she calls out for causing death. Since at least they don't talk about death. Jesus christ google is a vile company!
imiric 4y ago
Google takes 45% of YouTube's advertising revenue. Videos criticizing their most popular channels directly impact their profits. The company doesn't care about protecting content consumers, it only cares about their customers (advertisers) and maximizing profits. They tolerate content creators since they actually get them views, but otherwise they would rather run ads 24/7 if people would watch them.
cwkoss 4y ago
youtube effectively has abandoned moderation policy, and just has automated report-driven systems. I bet the video was removed because fractal woodburners with delusions of safety felt angry for being called out, and reported it.

h2odragon 4y ago

Censorship sucks but when its it YouTube's responsibility to protect idiots from themselves? If they removed these videos are they still responsible for people attempting the stunt because they heard about it there six months ago? I demand the freedom to suffer the consequences of my own actions.

tehwebguy 4y ago
YouTube has their own policy of taking down content they call “harmful & dangerous,” this person is complaining that they are enforcing it incorrectly by taking down her video talking about the dangers and not taking down or age gating the videos of people showing how to do it. > I demand the freedom to suffer the consequences of my own actions. You will absolutely suffer the consequences of whatever actions you take, I’m not sure why you seem to think YouTube would prevent that.
- hedora 4y ago
  "harmful & dangerous" to whom?
  - robonerd 4y ago
    People.

CM30 4y ago

YouTube's moderation is ridiculous, and it demonstrates the problem Google has in general. They don't like paying actual people to moderate their sites, and rely on automated systems and bots to do everything for them. So, if there's ever an issue (or you have a bunch of scammers mass reporting you because you debunk their 'work'), then YouTube/Google seems to think you're the problem instead of the scumbags. We need things to change here. We need Google to moderate their services properly, and we need these scammers to get arrested/sued/whatever for misleading info, and putting people's lives at risk.

deepstack 4y ago
Or instead use specialised communities that does do moderation like peer tube, odysee.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> We need things to change here. We need Google to moderate their services properly, Human moderation isn’t perfectly consistent, either. It would be extraordinarily expensive to expect YouTube to have humans moderate everything manually. What are people willing to give up in exchange for a human-moderated version of YouTube? Would we be okay if they charged a $3 “moderation fee” on every upload to cover the cost of paying someone to watch the video and evaluate how it fits YouTube’s rules? The big creators wouldn’t care, but the small time videos would immediately stop being uploaded and competitor websites would become popular overnight. I don’t see demands for perfect human moderation of YouTube uploads as realistic in any way.
- Retric 4y ago
  YouTube could set a views threshold to make manual reviews scale. My guess is 99% of what people watch is the top 0.1% most popular videos which makes things manageable. Highly dangerous video seen by 5,000 people not a big deal. Highly dangerous video seen by 5,000,000 people is.
  - protonfish 4y ago

seedless-sensat 4y ago

Would have loved to see a source of "34 fractal wood burning deaths in America"

doubleunplussed 4y ago
Here's a list: https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Materials/Safety-Fractal-Burning-Lichtenburg-Burning.aspx https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Mater...
- musingsole 4y ago
  Example from the parent's link: """ Upper Caboolture, Queensland, Australia Reported by: Energy Source & Distribution Death: Liam Keegan, age 17 March 23, 2021 """ ^ Many don't list the age, but this one did. And it made me sad.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Imperfect moderation is inevitable at the massive scale of social media companies. YouTube receives an enormous quantity of video every day and it’s clearly impossible to have humans review all of it. If we humans did review every single minute of video, the subjective element of moderation would still lead to headlines like this where someone could identify instances of inconsistencies. Given that she re-uploaded the video and I’m watching it on YouTube right now, I assume the initial moderation strike was more of a mistake. Or more likely, maybe it was reported by a number of people who were upset by it for some reason and it entered an auto-moderation queue. I have a hard time getting too worked up about news stories of singular moderation mistakes. Does anyone realistically expect YouTube to have perfectly consistent moderation? Even HN, a significantly smaller community, has very uneven and inconsistent moderation due to the user-influenced flagging features.

JCharante 4y ago
How hard is it to use manual review for videos that have at least a million views?
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  What makes you think they don't use manual review for highly-viewed videos? The video in question wouldn't have triggered that manual review threshold because it's not even close to a million views. I would actually assume that highly-viewed videos are moved up much higher in the manual review priority queue, as it only makes sense. The controversies like the one in the article are generally among moderately popular channels with 10K - 100K views, not in the millions.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    > The video in question wouldn't have triggered that manual review threshold because it's not even close to a million views. What makes you say that? I don't have a source on that specific video, but socialblade says her channel was getting hundreds of thousands of views per day in the week after that video went up, three weeks since her previous video. Edit: Bing cache says 720k as of some point. Archive.org says 1.5 million as of three days ago. I would have set the manual review threshold no higher than 100k anyway.

m0llusk 4y ago

Knowing that microwave oven transformers are extremely dangerous is critically important, so this represents a serious failing of basic education.

sh4rks 4y ago
Exactly. I can't sympathise with any of the people who mess around with stuff like this. Surely if you had even the littlest bit of common sense, you would know not to mess around with high voltages without training. To the people saying "mass report all fractal burning videos" - why not also take down videos on surfing, outdoor rock-climbing, and other dangerous sports?

blocked_again 4y ago

I think YouTube/Google has a big leadership crisis at the moment. Removing the dislike counter was the obvious sign.

onepointsixC 4y ago
Thank you for reminding me that viewers can't even vote down to try to inform others of how bad those videos are. YT's leadership needs to be replaced.
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
With a dislike counter at least that could signal something is amiss with these videos, but now you just see thumbs up everythings cool guys and the comments can be moderated by the uploader to remove anything negative. Still don't understand why they removed it.
- hedora 4y ago
  Money. Lots of dislikes imply lots of ad views.
  - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
    I've worked in advertising on the creative/client facing side, no one cares if their ad gets disliked. Engagement is engagement. Don't think that's the reason.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      He could've meant that dislikes are a signal to people to not watch the video and those represent a lot of lost engagement.
- robonerd 4y ago
  Downvotes hurt the feelings and egos of enough people with the power/leverage to get it changed. Particularly: politicians, corporations, and youtube executives themselves (e.g. Youtube's Rewind videos getting trashed with mass downvotes.)

micromacrofoot 4y ago

Why is this so hard for these massive companies? A single reasonable person can make better decisions than this.

pjc50 4y ago
There's only so many videos a single reasonable person can watch. And once you scale it it's no longer a single reasonable person but a vast army of low-paid content watchers.
wmeredith 4y ago
A person is smart, people are dumb. - Agent KA, Men in Black (https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/quote/127467 https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/quote/127467) See also, "None of us is as dumb as all of us." (https://despair.com/products/meetings?variant=4375841505301 https://despair.com/products/meetings?variant=4375841505301)

briandear 4y ago

[flagged]

mberning 4y ago

mberning 4y ago

They can auto generate warning messages on every video even tangentially referencing the c-word for 2 years, but they let this kind of thing slide for years and years.

bell-cot 4y ago
Ignoring the politics & posturing, my impression is that the number of people dead due to stupidity about COVID-19 is a few orders of magnitude larger than the number of people dead due to this sort of video.
- an1sotropy 4y ago
  I don't think the point was about the relative number of dead; I think it the observation that YT clearly has the technology to automatically annotate content, but declines to use it for things (like dangerous hacks) where it could save lives.
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    Reasonable...but I suspect that YT's "technology to automatically annotate..." is actually pretty sucky in the real world - high error rates, lots of (paid hourly) moderation needed, pushback from Legal on "issues and exposure" that it creates, etc. So they're not gonna deploy that tech against hazards which don't have a huge body count and/or political weight behind 'em.
hedora 4y ago
Yeah, but they did a terrible job of this. They still push anti vaxxer conspiracy theory crap, but they immediately banned actual tenured scientists with decades of experience writing and reviewing papers on pandemic response. If anything, their treatment of this video is par for the course. They're banning the factually correct content, and pushing popular misinformation that kills people.

richrichardsson 4y ago

I was considering searching for and reporting all "Fractal Wood Burning" videos. But you need to be signed in to flag a video, and there's no way I'm polluting my viewing history (and thus what YT thinks I like) with such shit.

mywittyname 4y ago
You can go back and delete the videos from your history and YT should treat it as though you never watched it. I make use of this on occasion when I click a video I really shouldn't have.
mixedCase 4y ago
You can delete them from your history, and you can indicate in the feed that you don't want those kinds of videos in it through the three dot menu

mrtksn 4y ago

We really need to finish with this content removal business and simply hold people accountable for the content. In other words, YouTube or any "utility level" platform should not have the right to remove content by its own and just request information to protect itself. For example, if someone is posting about something harmful the videos should remain and the person who does that should face the consequences. It's not just that the platforms suck in judging the content, the more important aspect is that this content is also part of historical record. I would like to be able to watch and examine content from criminals, from fraudsters or pranksters. For example, it's fascinating that Heaven's Gate cult website is still alive and kicking[0]. I'm glad that I can take a look at the real thing but if their mass su*cide happened today, I'm sure that all kind of materials about them would be promptly removed and we will be forced to accept only the official narrative(which might be or might not be correct on this case but that's not the point). None of us would be allowed to read their texts, listen to their conversation and judge it by ourselves. [0] https://www.heavensgate.com https://www.heavensgate.com

framapotari 4y ago
> For example, if someone is posting about something harmful the videos should remain and the person who does that should face the consequences. Ok, so now a video is up and people are tricked by it and injure themselves in the process. Some people die. Is that an acceptable cost? Does your solution make any considerations for ongoing harm?
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Sue the person who uploaded the video, as it happens with all the malicious activities with the real world. Sure, we can have tools to reduce risk - maybe there can be a warning under the video that the contents are disputed and some people claimed harm. If those people are lying the video uploader can sue them. Just because some people don't know how to behave and have delusions that nothing is real on the internet, we can't have total speech control in an attempt of "saving the kids". Just as with the real world, people need to develop the right habits to stay safe.

danso 4y ago

> It is extraordinarily dangerous, and dozens of people have been killed following instructions contained in viral videos. Thought this might be an exaggeration (classic “well I’ve never heard of this” brain), but here’s a case that happened just a few months ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna26109 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna26109

zitsarethecure 4y ago
The AAW have banned the practice because it is so dangerous and have been maintaining a list of the people killed by it, including at least one professional electrician. https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Woodturner/Resources/Safety-Materials/Safety-Fractal-Burning-Lichtenburg-Burning.aspx https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturner/Woodturner/Resources/S...

jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago

Never trust corporations (or anyone for that matter), even the most well intentioned of ones, to always make rational decisions, even when they hire rational people and write down rational policies.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Disagreed. I see this as perfectly rational in given their business model and regulatory environment they operate in. Their business relies on ad revenue (derived from video views) and they are no regulations that hold them liable for hosting dangerous content, nor for mistakenly-deleted content. Therefore the rational thing to do is let the mistakenly-deleted videos down (reviewing them manually would cost too much) while leaving anything else that doesn't trip the spam filter up (since they generate ad views).

anujkumarscom 4y ago

thanks

justcodin 4y ago

Youtube is an increasingly hot mess.

trinsic2 4y ago

Sorry way to many ads on that site. Like every paragraph...

edianorh 4y ago

Playing with microwaves carries many risks. Even without getting electricity involved, the magnetron contains beryllium oxide which can be fatal to humans if it gets into the lungs. Just to disassemble one, you need to know what the magnetron looks like and not try to disassemble it. Like many other appliances, it has capacitors, which may remain charged for a long time too. Those are dangerous too.

ugjka 4y ago
Thank God we didn't have any microwave ovens when I was a kid because I liked to disassemble everything But there was one capacitor from a photo flashlight that was close to killing me if I touched the ends, but thankfully it discharged on my screwdriver
- edianorh 4y ago
  I got zapped by the capacitor of a photo flash twice. I studied electronics, I was being carefully, and still I messed up. The second time I was being even more careful and I thought the capacitor was discharged. I'm not even sure how it happened, I was holding the PCB by the edges.
  - ugjka 4y ago
    Mine was a bigass capacitor from a mountable flash that plugged into the mains, that thing definitely kills
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
>Just to disassemble one, you need to know what the magnetron looks like and not try to disassemble it. I know what you’re going for here, but it’s a funny sentence.

madengr 4y ago

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

At what point do we say, "automation as a reason for failure is no longer acceptable"? Edit: That is, when the published information is wrong, false, and was not taken down, or was taken down...

wmeredith 4y ago
I'm not sure why that was ever an acceptable excuse. If you automate something and it gets people killed, where does the absolution come in, exactly? "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" segment of Fantasia is quite illustrative about the dangers of automation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX2yVucz24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX2yVucz24

whiddershins 4y ago

34 people killed is a pretty surprising number. Is it fair to refer to the makers of the videos as murderers? On a moral, if not legal, level?

kazinator 4y ago
If they contributed to the takedown of the critical video which informs about the dangers and deaths then I don't find myself able to casually dismiss the accusation of murder (as I would were that not the case).
wmeredith 4y ago
I'm not sure murder is the right crime here. Seems more passive like willfull neglect or something. Not a lawyer.
bedast 4y ago
That's 34 known and only in the US, as noted by Ann. Her new video notes 30 in the UK and more in Australia (where she lives). And it can't be reiterated enough, this is those that are known to be caused by this. It makes you wonder how many other electrocutions or fires were caused by this without noting this as the source, whether known or not. Unfortunately, I don't think there's precedence nor law that places liability on these people.

mihaic 4y ago

I'm only now leaning of this phenomenon, and I'm absolutely floored that something like fractal wood burning has claimed the lives of 34 people (known), and there's a general laisse-faire attitude around it. By itself this is close to the deadliest mass shootings in the history of the United States in terms of human casualties, even though the emotional impact is not the same.

chmod600 4y ago
Some kinds of deaths are more "media-ready" than others. Deaths from mass-shootings, terrorism, plane crashes, and shark attacks are given too much weight. Deaths from falls, drowning, and medical mistakes are given too little weight. Even within categories it's inconsistent. Most deaths by gunshot are suicides. And almost all murders by gunshot are ordinary pistols as part of ordinary criminal activity (not mass shooters).

radicalbyte 4y ago

Is there any way to filter out certain Youtube channels such that they cannot be viewed in your house? My kids like some of TheSoul channels and I'm not particularly happy with them watching content created by Russians.

geocrasher 4y ago

BigCliveDotCom has an excellent video about this: "The most deadly project on the Internet" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBeSKL9zVro

Linda703 4y ago

[dead]

bell-cot 4y ago

At scale, whack-a-mole take-downs and trying to idiot-proof the internet just feel kinda futile. A suggested (IANAL) alternative, for "dangerous ways to maim or kill yourself" YouTube content: - A "Report Being A Dangerous Thing To Try" YouTube page - with a few drop-downs, to summarize why it's dangerous. (High Voltage, Poison, Explosive, Fire Hazard, Dangerous Animals, Motor Vehicle Stunts, etc.) - Verified-as-dangerous videos stay up, but get a few seconds of skull-and-crossbones warning. With a death count, and "report yet another death" link. That last has a high enough bar ("crippled-for-life doesn't count, include official death certificate and certified police or medical report, ...") to make it clear that there are real dead bodies behind that body count. Unstated goal: Encourage less-stupid people to realize that following cool-sounding directions from the internet could maim or kill them. Whether or not anyone has yet gone to the effort required to get a specific video flagged as deadly.

FranticFervor 4y ago
Warnings like these can become diluted if the context of these reports are not specific enough. Listing rock climbing free solo deaths on videos of people top rope climbing will get an eye roll from people and make it easier to disregard. It's also not fair to communities that understand the risks of what they are doing to see these reminders of dangers they are already aware of.

YeahNO 4y ago

Someone made a commercial fractal wood burning device years ago. It had very long handled probes (1-2 ft.) and a pedal for switching on the power (there might have been a main power switch inline on the device itself.) It had a dial to let you crank up the amperage. I think someone did get hurt using it. Reputable art/woodworking events and people do not allow or use fractal wood burning because the inherent risk is so high.

throwawayffffas 4y ago

So are the authors of the fractal wood burning videos criminally negligent?

dredmorbius 4y ago
What of the publishers?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

justAlittleCom 4y ago

I am sorry but I strongly disagree with most comments here. I do a lot of things potentially extremely dangerous, like burning wood with a microwave, or driving a motorcycle, or playing with hydrogen and oxygen in stoichiometric ratio, I tried to melt a wrench with a 12V battery, and all that makes me a better engineer and a better person, more aware of the weakness of flesh and how reality is scary and how it dont care about our stupid meaty body. I feel I see a lot of class contempt here, "those stupid people dont know that it's dangerous, they should stick with devices conceived by us. We educated people put stupid warning labels on it just for them". Of course, those poor soul should have been more aware of the danger, but censuring those video, or forbidding them to play with microwave, is that really what we want ? Anybody should be aware about the basic physics, that's the real problem here. I dont want to see moral video "dont do that because it's wrong", I would more video like "look at that how dangerous it is, and also, how cool is that". About electroboom, I am the only one to think that being zapped again and again does a really poor job at passing the message "electricity is dangerous and can kill you"? If some people dont understand the dangerousity of electricity, maybe they just learnt from electroboom. I much prefer the channel "diode gone wild".

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Trying to be charitable but this is insane. I'm not against people taking risks as long as it's very clear what risks they're taking, and as long as the reward is worth it (for any reasonable definition of "worth it"). Pretty much everyone knows how dangerous motorcycles are, and plans (or doesn't, but still their choice) accordingly. The whole point of Ann Reardon's video is that tons of people tried this, and at least 60+ died, without having any concept of how dangerous it actually is. That is also evidenced by many of the videos showing, for example, bare legs and bare hands inches away from lethal contact. On the "worth it" side of things, obviously that's subjective, and I think the original patterns are neat, but it seems very much a "you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all" type of effect. Are you honestly saying that you think a substantial risk of death is worth it here?
- justAlittleCom 4y ago