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Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

631 points by ddtaylor 4y ago

kringo 4y ago
That's awesome, finally they get it! All credit goes to Tesla. Buying a car with option to customize, same fair price everyone pays and ordering online without talking to anyone is the way to go!!!
phinnaeus 4y ago
I'm surprised they see spending less on advertising as part of their EV strategy. Copying Tesla in that regard might not work out the way they want it to. IMO Non-Tesla EVs are already facing an uphill awareness battle.
- slt2021 4y ago
  Ford is already ahead of Tesla in EV Trucks
  - smegger001 4y ago
    Well tesla has seemed to trying shooting themselves in the foot with their truck rollout. Naming it "cyber truck" then making it look like a bad hot wheels, giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads (like a pickups bed is meant for), using new manufacturing technique for its body which results in problems that slow production, bragging about it being indestructible then breaking it window trying to demonstrate how indestructible it is.
    - seattle_spring 4y ago
      > giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads I genuinely doubt the average Cybertruck customer is planning on using for hauling anything more than kids and groceries.
      - smegger001 4y ago
        then why not get another form factor better suited to hauling kids and groceries.
        redox99 4y ago
        Because people buy based on what they like and enjoy, not what's optimal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- leereeves 4y ago
  There was an article here on HN about the Ford Lightning a few days ago, and now this one. I think their free marketing strategy must be working if it's even reaching the HN crowd, which is not really a traditional market for Ford pickups.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    - Rapzid 4y ago
      Fuck yeah!
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    Astroturfing is an incredibly common advertising strategy these days. They're targeting silicon valley and the silicon valley wannabes. HN in a nutshell.
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  From what I've seen of the coverage, that doesn't quite seem true for the F150. It has decades of name recognition built up and lots of buzz going on for it already. The F150 may be the first real ICE>EV mega crossover thst happens.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    The first electric fullsize pickup to market is going to be a f-ing goldmine. There are a lot of people who commute in a sedan and have a Tacoma or Odyssey that gets driven when needed and would replace both with a fullsize crew cab truck if it weren't for a little voice in the back of their head telling them that such a vehicle does not project an image that is appropriate for the kind of person who lives in a million dollar home with solar on the roof in a neighborhood dotted with black lives matter signs. An EV variant drops that stigma and will attract a bunch moneyed buyers who previously would never have considered a fullsize truck. That's huge.
  - 0des 4y ago
    I believe the Mustang is going all EV soon too, right? yep: https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-mustang-will-go-all-electric-in-2028 https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-mustang-will-go-all-electric-i...
    - happyopossum 4y ago
      No, not even close.
- datalopers 4y ago
  I think you’re drastically underestimating how immensely popular the Ford F-150 is. Every single person who wants a truck knows about the F-150 and I’d wager the vast majority who may purchase an EV know about the F-150 Lightning or will find out as they start hitting the streets and they see them in parking lots and at stoplights.
  - phinnaeus 4y ago
    But what percentage of those F-150 owners know there is an EV version? Or put another way, how many of them can you convert to an EV version with effective advertising?
    - eatonphil 4y ago
      At some point the f150 may be only electric? So maybe advertising isn't so important if people just want the model regardless of the engine.
      - phinnaeus 4y ago
        That's a great point, but I haven't heard when that is going to happen. Until then, IMHO ads shouldn't be discounted by Ford (this of course assumes that Ford actually wants to convert people from ICE to EV).
        leereeves 4y ago
        The Lightning seems to be designed to convert F-150 buyers. It looks just like a regular F-150 and comes with features rural customers would love, like powering your house during blackouts and your tools away from an outlet.
        throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        It's not designed to convert existing F150 buyers. It's designed to get the guy who has a Tesla and a Tacoma in his driveway and who sees fullsize domestic trucks as a penis extension for backwards hicks to trade both those in. This isn't about converting existing owners. It's about growing the potential market.
- lvl102 4y ago
  F-150 is the second best selling vehicle in the WORLD. Not just the US. Think about that for a moment. Even if Ford simply replaces 1/2 of them with EV, that’s more than 15x what Tesla delivered in 2021.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  They can't build their EVs fast enough. The dealerships are marking them up 20k. Why continue advertising when it will bring them $0 more revenue?
walkjlkt34t 4y ago
[flagged]
eatonphil 4y ago
The article ended just as it got good. What exactly does fixed price sales mean and why can't dealerships do that? What is Ford's plan for dealerships? Tesla has dealerships too right? I walked past the one in Red Hook Brooklyn. Or maybe that was just servicing? But they did have new cars there. And why won't Ford be advertising EVs? Super bowl ads always have car commercials. How else are they going to be able to tell people about the EVs? Unless they plan only to use their existing clout to attract people once they're already in the dealership or site? Lots of questions.
- bombcar 4y ago
  They’re saying that since the F150 EV is sold out until two+ years from now they don’t need to do any of that stuff. And they’re pissed at dealers doing markups I bet.
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    Probably. But DTC gives the brand a better relationship with the customer / market. Why wait for what gets filtered back from the dealerships? Why not have a direct relationship with a higher quality signal? I say this because approx every month I get a postcard from a local dealership that references a car I haven't had for 12+ yrs. My sense is, many dealerships are highend mom & pops. That is, they suck at marketing. That doesn't benefit the brand.
- DennisP 4y ago
  Tesla's "dealers" won't sell you a car. They'll service it, and take you on a test-drive, but when it comes time to order, you still go to the website.
  - skellera 4y ago
    There are still a lot of showrooms that do nothing but “sell” cars. Tesla uses their model to have locations in major upscale malls. I assume Ford will follow a similar model for EVs.
ww520 4y ago
Are the dealerships going to sue Ford? It will be interesting to watch.
- thinkingkong 4y ago
  What would they sue them for?
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Breaking a contractual monopoly
  - monkeybutton 4y ago
    Yeah the thought of this is wild to me. "Distribute your product through us or else" in a free market?
    - throw1230 4y ago
      It's not a free market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#States_with_total_direct_sales_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#S...
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    Breaking the law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealerships_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealerships_in_the_United_... > In the United States, direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in almost every state by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by dealers.
    - digisign 4y ago
      Great, now I've got Judas Priest playing in my head.
- jmole 4y ago
  Almost certainly. Dealers enjoy a state sanctioned monopoly on new car sales, and even non-Tesla dealers sued Tesla for their no-dealer business model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#States_with_total_direct_sales_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#S...
LeoPanthera 4y ago
Tesla may not be the future of EVs, but we have to thank them for dragging everyone else into the present.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kcb 4y ago
  > Tesla may not be the future of EVs Based on what metric? I have a hard time looking at Tesla's sales, revenue, profit, production capacity growth and not thinking they will continue to be a leader in EVs far into the future.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Does speculation require a metric?
    - kcb 4y ago
      No? I asked a question.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Do you have a citation for that opinion?
  - tempsy 4y ago
    people said the same about Netflix vs other streaming competitors you’re the leader and category creator until one day you’re just another player in a sea of competition
  - mesh 4y ago
    He said "may not", which is the same as saying "may".
    - kcb 4y ago
      Ok...this isn't that hard. If someone says you may light on fire tomorrow. You're probably going to ask for a little bit of an explanation.
peter422 4y ago
I recently bought a Prius Prime and the amount of work I had to do to buy it at MSRP was ridiculous. If you have an oversubscribed car the dealer model just doesn’t work. If car companies are going to compete in the future they will have to either eliminate dealers or at least force some type of structure to the sales process, otherwise people will gravitate to the companies that do (like Tesla).
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Dumb questions: isn't this just the market at work though? Why is it actually a problem for car makers if the car is sold above MSRP? Just a worse consumer experience that reflects poorly on the brand? Sony seems to deal with it with sold-out ps5 and resellers gauging. I mean you're not the only one suggesting this is a problem. Ford clearly seems to have a problem with dealerships and their markup I guess (or I misread the article).
  - workingon 4y ago
    It’s not a problem now, it will be a problem when you can easily get a Ford direct at MSRP but you have to pay dealer markup for a Chevy.
    - eatonphil 4y ago
      It would only matter if their MSRP prices were identical though, right? I don't buy new cars so I don't actually know. Is it common for competing brands like Chevrolet and Ford to price similar models at identical price? I always assumed thered be variations.
      - peter422 4y ago
        It wasn’t just the cost, but the effort. Calling 10+ dealerships, having to track the inventory, etc. Just getting on a centralized waiting list would have been 10x easier and more user friendly.
    - fma 4y ago
zeeb 4y ago
I imagine the +$20k "market adjustment" markups on the F-150 lightning (and other EV's and hybrids) [0] by dealerships probably factored into this decision. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-dealer-markups/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-d...
- alexktz 4y ago
  It 100% factored into my decision to cancel my pre-order for a Lightning. The dealer said to me via email in December 2021: The latest communication is that order banks will open in January. Ford will be sending invitations to build / order in waves as to keep up with the demand. The invitations will be prioritized based on reservation time stamps. Your reservation is number 138 at our location. I have no way to track where you are in the total reservation list. Once 2022 model orders have been fulfilled, Ford will start the process over again. They expect to start taking orders for 2023 models about mid next year. Given the demand and number of reservation ahead of you, it is reasonable to think that you will not be able to order until mid 2022 for a 2023 model. I also need to mention that Managment has indicated there will be an addendum added to the MSRP. We are expecting that to be about $10,000 but could be a little lower or higher dependant on supply vs demand. I called Ford corporate who didn't care. So I canceled my preorder and decided not to proceed with becoming a net new Ford customer so long as dealers are involved. This news gives me hope that model is not long for this world - thank goodness.
  - cschep 4y ago
    Count me as another "will buy an f-150 lightning if they will take my money but not if I have to go through a dealer". I don't know how many of us there are but I really hope enough that I never have to go to a dealer again.
    - natch 4y ago
      And no Supercharger network. Kind of nuts to buy an EV without that.
  - 4y ago
paxys 4y ago
A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is truly little or no advantage, why has this obvious disruption never come up in the last ~100+ years of car sales in this country and all over the world?
- PainfullyNormal 4y ago
  FortNine made a case for it. They're Canadian, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHYBhcpdvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHYBhcpdvQ
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? Proximity and diversity. How are you going to have direct sales depots in every random town in the world? And which towns get which brands? Makes no sense.
  - erichocean 4y ago
    > How are you going to have direct sales depots in every random town in the world? How about The Internet? Might work…
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      The Internet is terrible for such things. You want to see it and feel it, test drive it, kick the tires. .
- FpUser 4y ago
  They could sell used vehicles, hence provide some value
  - 4y ago
kemiller 4y ago
The more companies copy Tesla and outdo them at things Tesla is bad at, the better for all of us. And hopefully force Tesla to get better.
- grecy 4y ago
  Elon recently tweeted "Competition is good for the consumer".
lvl102 4y ago
Counter: Ford dealerships actually give them a big advantage over Tesla. This is because there are close to 3,000 dealerships in the US compared to less than 200 for Tesla.
- jmtulloss 4y ago
  This isn’t quite fair but that was blockbuster’s counter to netflix too
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Maybe. You know the rule: I bet 20% of those dealerships do 80% of the sales. Or at least 80% of Ford's profits. The overhead of HQ servicing each dealership is (approx) fixed. Some cover that with plenty to spare, others might be barely breakeven (after dealer incentives et al). That said, even 20% of 3k is still 600 so that does feel like a positive for Ford (even without the dead weight).
allthecybers 4y ago
I have a lot of optimism for The Ford EV business. First they are making some great EVs and they aren’t to proud or set in their ways to realize the friction points for prospective EV buyers and owners. If they keep making the right moves, and improving the whole Ford EV experience, I might be inclined to purchase a Ford EV next time instead of another Tesla.
superultra 4y ago
I bought a (Toyota) Scion xB when it first came to the States in 2004. The brand rollout was fixed-price, advertised as no-haggle. A big play for that era's Gen Z, Gen X. Focus was on personal customizations as upgrades, not much else rom the mono-spec model. I loved the whole concept. Dealerships hated it. I loved that car, drove it until it the wheels fell off. Point being, Tesla is hardly the first one to pull off this model. https://www.toyotaofrichardson.com/blog/2016/september/29/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-scion.htm https://www.toyotaofrichardson.com/blog/2016/september/29/a-...
- signatoremo 4y ago
  As someone else mentioned, it wasn’t online. You still had to deal with dealership. Sometimes Scion showroom was right next to Toyota’s one, practically the same people. Also, it no longer exists. Dealers don’t like it because they make less profit off Scion cars. The incentive wasn’t there. You can see how it is different than the direct model Tesla use, and Ford is contemplating to adopt
  - superultra 4y ago
    I am pretty sure that I did buy online-ish. I filled out a customization form on the Scion website (it was a fancy webpage for 2003/4, but bascially just a very basic form submission), and then got an email a few days later from the nearest dealership (at the time I had to drive a couple of states over to get it), and it went from there. But there was no negotiation. I walked in, signed papers, and drove out with a car. Pretty revolutionary for 2004. And true Scion as a brand no longer exists, but it lasted pretty long. In this case, Ford is not saying away with the dealerships - they're looking at them as distribution hubs, basically...like Scion.
medler 4y ago
This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happened between Amazon and Target. Target could have gone away, but they didn't. They bolted on an e-commerce platform and then they used their physical store to add groceries and return -- make returns really much easier than Amazon. They used their expertise as a physical retailer to their advantage, but they modernized the e-commerce piece. So it would be really easy to do business with them. It's exactly what we have to do on the retail side. We got to go to non-negotiated price. We've got to go to a 100% online, the vehicle there is no inventory goes directly to the customer, 100% remote pickup and delivery, but then we have this opportunity to use our physical presence, they outperform them. Like, I believe some Mach-E and Lightning customers would love to have a Mustang for the weekend. Maybe they want a Super Duty. I can do that, they can't do that, unless they ran a Ford.” Source: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4515793-ford-motor-company-f-ceo-james-farley-presents-bernstein-38th-annual-strategic-decisions https://seekingalpha.com/article/4515793-ford-motor-company-...
- bombcar 4y ago
  Speaking of Target they’re getting sneaky - the online for pickup or delivery price is often higher than the same item instore. Once I saw that I got a bit sad.
  - antiterra 4y ago
    In my experience it’s usually the opposite and I have to ask for a price match to the online price. It is their policy in the contiguous US to price match target.com to Target Store and Target Store to target.com. The policy doesn’t cover Target Store to other Target Store.
    - dixie_land 4y ago
      not target, but the “contiguous US” part reminded me of the time where at a Hawaii Walmart they refused to price match walmart.com. so I just ordered online right then and there and chose to pick up in the same store. I watched the same staff picking up the same item from the shelf and called me to the online pick up area…
flashgordon 4y ago
So last year I was looking to buy a car (and now you know where I am going with this). I honestly went in thinking may be just perhaps dealerships have become less scummy after all these years. Boy was I in for a shock. Call it supply demand or what not the completely unscrupulous slapping of MVA on cars whose supply was constrained because of their miscalculation made me sooo damn mad. Heck I even wondered why the hell did Daniel Caruso chose to be a car dealer in Cobra Kai is beyond me!!!
sanguy 4y ago
Good riddance to the dealerships.
Jedd 4y ago
> It's unclear if Ford also plans to implement this sales strategy shift for its non-EV products. Oh, I think it's pretty clear that unless this strategy goes totally off the rails, that's definitely where they're heading. It'll converge (albeit at different rates) with the shift away from selling non-EV products altogether. Apart from the obvious and immediate profit bumps, there's knock-on effects, such as not forcing your customers to deal with the second least trusted profession in the USA. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/11/americas-most-least-trusted-professions-infographic/?sh=146d012c7e94 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/11/americ...
osigurdson 4y ago
So, in other words, copy Tesla.
- Vladimof 4y ago
  no... Tesla sells all their cars like this... Ford is just testing the waters
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    That fact that Tesla only sells EVs and has no dealer network seems obvious but if you think the clarification is needed this is fine.
CSMastermind 4y ago
I just bought a new car and it was an awful experience having to go through a dealer. I pray that some time in my lifetime we see direct to consumer car sales.
nemo44x 4y ago
Buy $F.
rmason 4y ago
The dealer lobby is extremely powerful. Here in Michigan they give to both parties. When they wanted to stop Tesla from having showrooms in the state they got a bipartisan bill passed at 2 am! Just was talking to someone today from Ford and chatted about that story. I said how much are you going to pay the dealer for every EV sold in their territory? He said nothing like that has been in the press. I teased him that's not exactly a denial. Are they going to be paid something to have EV's in the showroom or available for test drives? I was told you will have to wait and see. Dealers aren't going to need the amount of real estate they've got now. Dealers make the most money from service, used cars and finally new car sales. I have noticed that some dealers have made the investment to service EV's which includes training and a minimum of two charging stations. But some dealers have chosen not to do so. I would imagine the dealers not moving to service EV's are at some point in the future going to take a buyout and close their dealership, but that's just a guess.
chrismartin 4y ago
None of this amounts to much while Ford's ability to produce EVs remains low. Ford sells about a million ICE trucks per year in the US, but they're only planning about 150k total F-150s Lightning through mid-2023, and the waiting list is multiple years long. (For comparison, Tesla now sells 100k EVs per month.) What's the bottleneck with Ford building electric powertrains? Is it still the semiconductor shortage? Batteries? Production tooling?
ranman 4y ago
Wait didn't they lobby against this like... 10 years ago?
milkytron 4y ago
This article doesn't mention the fact that Ford is splitting into multiple units[0]. It makes sense for allowing current Ford dealerships to operate, however they may, but also allowing the online sales through a separate division with it's own business model. This puts some real pressure on dealerships to change, as we slowly transition to a more EV world. [0]https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083913314/ford-modele-split-units-electric-gas https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083913314/ford-modele-split-...
OnionBlender 4y ago
I absolutely hate dealerships. I tried to buy a Mazda 3 a few years ago and the dealer took my keys and driver's license with some stupid excuse. I didn't realize until later that it was a tactic to prevent me from walking out the door when I wanted.
- 0x00000000 4y ago
  Yeah that’s a tactic human traffickers use too.
- wmeredith 4y ago
  I had a Jeep dealer in Kansas City do this to me,. Then refuse to give them back and literally stood in from of an exit to prevent me from leaving. I told them I was calling the cops. They gave them back.
SMAAART 4y ago
oh look, Ford is taking a page off the Tesla's book.
dang 4y ago
Url changed from https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40175990/ford-online-sales-no-negotiation/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40175990/ford-online-sale..., which points to this.
neonate 4y ago
https://archive.ph/KDXzM https://archive.ph/KDXzM
chrissnell 4y ago
The bicycle industry is rapidly moving to factory stores. The big brands are buying out their more-successful dealers and turning them into branded stores, locking out any other brands that the dealer sold in the process. For example, Specialized will buy a store from a retiring dealer, get rid of the Cannondale inventory, and re-brand it as "Specialized Bikes". This strengthens their brand and creates consistency, while simultaneously shutting out their manufacturer competition from the market. The smaller dealers in little towns are completely screwed. They'll probably perish and be replaced by the manufacturer's online presence. Perhaps local "mobile bike repair" outfits will pop up to do local assembly and support.
Vladimof 4y ago
Hope they get the price point competitive with ICE vehicles...
travisgriggs 4y ago
Corwin Ford came into our area, put all of the other dealers out of business over the last 10 years and hold forth with terrible prices and service. I avoid them at all cost. The dealer model (not just for cars) may have been a “good thing” once upon a time. When I talk to older generations, they always seem taken with the idea of a “good dealer”, someone to “take care of you.” But by and large (there are some exceptions), dealer model seems to have generally become less mutually beneficiary. In most domains, I loathe them.
- julianlam 4y ago
  That's just Stockholm syndrome with a dash of ignorance thrown in. Their idea of a "good dealer" was one who only ripped them off moderately.
kelp 4y ago
I bought my Volvo C40 EV this way, though it wasn't exactly seamless and the overall price I ended up paying wasn't as clear as it could have been, though it was all discounts in the end. I put in the order through Volvo online, and they confirmed the build sometime the middle of last year. Volvo had an online order tracker, that shows progress from order acceptance to the car being in production, etc. But it was never actually updated. I was a little worried the car wasn't going to show up before my existing lease was up in June. So I contacted Volvo customer support in early March and they surprised me by telling me the car was going to be delivered to the dealer the next week. I had heard nothing from anyone in months, so that was a big surprise. I called the dealer, who I'd never talked to until that point, and they confirmed the car was coming in the next week and setup an appointment to pick it up. Because used car prices are crazy they could also buy out my leased ICE Volvo and give me a bit of money back for it. So the price I paid (another lease) ended up including the new C40 at MSRP, minus trade-in, minus CA EV credit, minus Federal EV credit, and minus a Volvo loyalty discount. It wall worked out pretty well, but would have been nice if their order status page actually showed order status. I imagine it was a manual process to update it and somehow that wasn't getting done. I heard from other they had the same experience.
xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
In many other parts of the world, even North America, the MSRP is the price of the car. There is no negotiating (at least, not upwards, and definitely not usually). I don't understand why this is newsworthy? I bought a non-EV in the last decade by putting the order together online on the manufacturer's national website, then processing it through a dealership. Buying a car in the US was so unnecessarily stupid because of all the haggling and pussyfooting around what the damn thing is actually going to cost.
- seattle_spring 4y ago
  If you haven't bought a car in the last year or so then you're out of the loop. Stock is low and prices are above MSRP pretty much across the board. For especially in demand cars like the Lighting or Toyota RAV4 Prime the "dealership markup" can be 50% more than MSRP or more.
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    This is a problem predominantly only in the US. It's simply not legal to sell above MSRP here, for example.
NonNefarious 4y ago
That's not gonna sit well with red states, bro. They're the ones that made selling directly to customers ILLEGAL... even by an American company.
paraknight 4y ago
It's my dream to convert a Ford Transit into a campervan, and I've been eyeing the hybrid/EV ones for a while, so this is great! I'll probably not get it new, but still!
alkonaut 4y ago
Everywhere that manufacturers let you make order and wait for your custom car instead of buying from a lot (isn’t that a US only thing?) the dealerships didn’t go away. Dealerships are important as showrooms, service centers, a place to sell (slightly) used cars with brand warranties etc.
rbanffy 4y ago
I’d love that. I hate having to endure the process of making decisions based on partial information given in unstructured form by an often unreliable car salesperson. That’s my day job, thank you. I’m paid for bringing out actual actionable intelligence from such things and I’d like my personal life to be easier.
kkfx 4y ago
In general terms: - I have nothing against such model IF I can test-drive for free the vehicle, so if some vendor bring the vehicle to my home, 24h test, they'll get back no question asked, totally free; - I understand big car industry want to use modern surveillance capitalism for target sells, not much an issue since we already know how this system work; - IF they also provide on-side under-warranty service... They buy back used vehicles with someone who came and evaluate locally... It might be even good IMVHO. It's clear the society at a certain level have shifted back to a direct producer-to-customer model, witch might be perfectly good IF is general supported by standard means, or might be a way to exploit consumers and intermediate OEMs like happen in many cases (cfr. Amazon, Wallmart etc to cite USA examples). The whole issue is probably a whole society comprehension of such model and I doubt there is such understatement without people training...
WalterBright 4y ago
Non-negotiable prices always turn out to be negotiable. Try it - you'll see :-)
- redox99 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure you can't negotiate a new Tesla price
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Have you tried?
drdunce 4y ago
how do test drives work?
- julianlam 4y ago
  In an ideal world I'd imagine pop-up touring shops where you can test drive cars and order them at a kiosk on-the-spot. A test drive circus! Ha! Giant already does this with bikes, in my area. They rent out carpool lots in low periods (weekends, basically) and people come from all over to check out their bikes. Sure it's a little less instant gratification, but I wouldn't mind waiting a couple weeks for a Mazda pop-up to come by if it ends up being cheaper than a dealership.
MobileVet 4y ago
The dealership model has become a liability to brands and it is high time they take control back. Can you imagine Apple letting some local business put their name and logo on their store? Sure, some dealerships are solid but when ‘used car salesman’ is a trope, you have a problem. The current supple deficit and resulting dealer markups are a direct result of a short term perspective that damages the overall brand in the long run.
jguimont 4y ago
Polestar is doing the hybrid model too. online order, single price, single wait list and leveraging a set of volvo dealerships for delivery and maintenance. i think this is the perfect model.
ddingus 4y ago
Just a quick note on dealers: The last new Ford I bought from a dealer was a 6 hour experience. I came ready and got my vehicle for 3 percent over invoice and avoided all the cost pack ins at contract. It was brutal. And I used sales skills, as a buyer, learned from high octane types that get that money no matter what. In the years following, people gladly paid me $1k, plus a percent of the savings off MSRP, to buy cars for them. Did that a few times for a little extra spiff on my vehicle buy. Was a Ford Expedition, 2000 era vehicle. Those are made on the F150 platform and are great outdoors rigs, though I won't ever get another one, nor a new vehicle from a dealer again. Someone will make an EV Expedition type rig. Probably Ford will and I want it. People paying non trivial money to avoid the dealers is exactly why Ford is doing what they are doing.
DeathArrow 4y ago
>He teased that the company sees potentially huge profits in building an electric vehicle for ride-hailing services Lyft and Uber. Yes. Especially because Uber and Lyft closing business is just a matter of time.
andjd 4y ago
I, for one, think transparent, non-negotiable pricing would be a net benefit for consumers. While there has been consolidation in the automotive space, there's still a fairly large number of players, so there will still be competition on price. The status quo, where prices are negotiated at dealerships, allows car companies to keep their real prices secret, and allows them to get more money from consumers who are less comfortable negotiating or don't have the time or energy to figure out what the real price should be. Fixed pricing will be higher for some, but it will also be lower for many. Fixed pricing also makes it much easier to compare prices across brands, which should result in a more competitive market.
peanut_worm 4y ago
Car dealerships are an unapologetic scam so I welcome this with open arms.

631 points by ddtaylor 4y ago

That's awesome, finally they get it! All credit goes to Tesla. Buying a car with option to customize, same fair price everyone pays and ordering online without talking to anyone is the way to go!!!

phinnaeus 4y ago

I'm surprised they see spending less on advertising as part of their EV strategy. Copying Tesla in that regard might not work out the way they want it to. IMO Non-Tesla EVs are already facing an uphill awareness battle.

slt2021 4y ago
Ford is already ahead of Tesla in EV Trucks
- smegger001 4y ago
  Well tesla has seemed to trying shooting themselves in the foot with their truck rollout. Naming it "cyber truck" then making it look like a bad hot wheels, giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads (like a pickups bed is meant for), using new manufacturing technique for its body which results in problems that slow production, bragging about it being indestructible then breaking it window trying to demonstrate how indestructible it is.
  - seattle_spring 4y ago
    > giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads I genuinely doubt the average Cybertruck customer is planning on using for hauling anything more than kids and groceries.
    - smegger001 4y ago
      then why not get another form factor better suited to hauling kids and groceries.
      - redox99 4y ago
        Because people buy based on what they like and enjoy, not what's optimal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
leereeves 4y ago
There was an article here on HN about the Ford Lightning a few days ago, and now this one. I think their free marketing strategy must be working if it's even reaching the HN crowd, which is not really a traditional market for Ford pickups.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  - Rapzid 4y ago
    Fuck yeah!
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Astroturfing is an incredibly common advertising strategy these days. They're targeting silicon valley and the silicon valley wannabes. HN in a nutshell.
xen2xen1 4y ago
From what I've seen of the coverage, that doesn't quite seem true for the F150. It has decades of name recognition built up and lots of buzz going on for it already. The F150 may be the first real ICE>EV mega crossover thst happens.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The first electric fullsize pickup to market is going to be a f-ing goldmine. There are a lot of people who commute in a sedan and have a Tacoma or Odyssey that gets driven when needed and would replace both with a fullsize crew cab truck if it weren't for a little voice in the back of their head telling them that such a vehicle does not project an image that is appropriate for the kind of person who lives in a million dollar home with solar on the roof in a neighborhood dotted with black lives matter signs. An EV variant drops that stigma and will attract a bunch moneyed buyers who previously would never have considered a fullsize truck. That's huge.
- 0des 4y ago
  I believe the Mustang is going all EV soon too, right? yep: https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-mustang-will-go-all-electric-in-2028 https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-mustang-will-go-all-electric-i...
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    No, not even close.
datalopers 4y ago
I think you’re drastically underestimating how immensely popular the Ford F-150 is. Every single person who wants a truck knows about the F-150 and I’d wager the vast majority who may purchase an EV know about the F-150 Lightning or will find out as they start hitting the streets and they see them in parking lots and at stoplights.
- phinnaeus 4y ago
  But what percentage of those F-150 owners know there is an EV version? Or put another way, how many of them can you convert to an EV version with effective advertising?
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    At some point the f150 may be only electric? So maybe advertising isn't so important if people just want the model regardless of the engine.
    - phinnaeus 4y ago
      That's a great point, but I haven't heard when that is going to happen. Until then, IMHO ads shouldn't be discounted by Ford (this of course assumes that Ford actually wants to convert people from ICE to EV).
      - leereeves 4y ago
        The Lightning seems to be designed to convert F-150 buyers. It looks just like a regular F-150 and comes with features rural customers would love, like powering your house during blackouts and your tools away from an outlet.
        throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        It's not designed to convert existing F150 buyers. It's designed to get the guy who has a Tesla and a Tacoma in his driveway and who sees fullsize domestic trucks as a penis extension for backwards hicks to trade both those in. This isn't about converting existing owners. It's about growing the potential market.
lvl102 4y ago
F-150 is the second best selling vehicle in the WORLD. Not just the US. Think about that for a moment. Even if Ford simply replaces 1/2 of them with EV, that’s more than 15x what Tesla delivered in 2021.
colinmhayes 4y ago
They can't build their EVs fast enough. The dealerships are marking them up 20k. Why continue advertising when it will bring them $0 more revenue?

walkjlkt34t 4y ago

[flagged]

eatonphil 4y ago

The article ended just as it got good. What exactly does fixed price sales mean and why can't dealerships do that? What is Ford's plan for dealerships? Tesla has dealerships too right? I walked past the one in Red Hook Brooklyn. Or maybe that was just servicing? But they did have new cars there. And why won't Ford be advertising EVs? Super bowl ads always have car commercials. How else are they going to be able to tell people about the EVs? Unless they plan only to use their existing clout to attract people once they're already in the dealership or site? Lots of questions.

bombcar 4y ago
They’re saying that since the F150 EV is sold out until two+ years from now they don’t need to do any of that stuff. And they’re pissed at dealers doing markups I bet.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Probably. But DTC gives the brand a better relationship with the customer / market. Why wait for what gets filtered back from the dealerships? Why not have a direct relationship with a higher quality signal? I say this because approx every month I get a postcard from a local dealership that references a car I haven't had for 12+ yrs. My sense is, many dealerships are highend mom & pops. That is, they suck at marketing. That doesn't benefit the brand.
DennisP 4y ago
Tesla's "dealers" won't sell you a car. They'll service it, and take you on a test-drive, but when it comes time to order, you still go to the website.
- skellera 4y ago
  There are still a lot of showrooms that do nothing but “sell” cars. Tesla uses their model to have locations in major upscale malls. I assume Ford will follow a similar model for EVs.

ww520 4y ago

Are the dealerships going to sue Ford? It will be interesting to watch.

thinkingkong 4y ago
What would they sue them for?
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Breaking a contractual monopoly
- monkeybutton 4y ago
  Yeah the thought of this is wild to me. "Distribute your product through us or else" in a free market?
  - throw1230 4y ago
    It's not a free market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#States_with_total_direct_sales_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#S...
- bin_bash 4y ago
  Breaking the law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealerships_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_dealerships_in_the_United_... > In the United States, direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in almost every state by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by dealers.
  - digisign 4y ago
    Great, now I've got Judas Priest playing in my head.
jmole 4y ago
Almost certainly. Dealers enjoy a state sanctioned monopoly on new car sales, and even non-Tesla dealers sued Tesla for their no-dealer business model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#States_with_total_direct_sales_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#S...

LeoPanthera 4y ago

Tesla may not be the future of EVs, but we have to thank them for dragging everyone else into the present.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kcb 4y ago
> Tesla may not be the future of EVs Based on what metric? I have a hard time looking at Tesla's sales, revenue, profit, production capacity growth and not thinking they will continue to be a leader in EVs far into the future.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Does speculation require a metric?
  - kcb 4y ago
    No? I asked a question.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Do you have a citation for that opinion?
- tempsy 4y ago
  people said the same about Netflix vs other streaming competitors you’re the leader and category creator until one day you’re just another player in a sea of competition
- mesh 4y ago
  He said "may not", which is the same as saying "may".
  - kcb 4y ago
    Ok...this isn't that hard. If someone says you may light on fire tomorrow. You're probably going to ask for a little bit of an explanation.

peter422 4y ago

I recently bought a Prius Prime and the amount of work I had to do to buy it at MSRP was ridiculous. If you have an oversubscribed car the dealer model just doesn’t work. If car companies are going to compete in the future they will have to either eliminate dealers or at least force some type of structure to the sales process, otherwise people will gravitate to the companies that do (like Tesla).

eatonphil 4y ago
Dumb questions: isn't this just the market at work though? Why is it actually a problem for car makers if the car is sold above MSRP? Just a worse consumer experience that reflects poorly on the brand? Sony seems to deal with it with sold-out ps5 and resellers gauging. I mean you're not the only one suggesting this is a problem. Ford clearly seems to have a problem with dealerships and their markup I guess (or I misread the article).
- workingon 4y ago
  It’s not a problem now, it will be a problem when you can easily get a Ford direct at MSRP but you have to pay dealer markup for a Chevy.
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    It would only matter if their MSRP prices were identical though, right? I don't buy new cars so I don't actually know. Is it common for competing brands like Chevrolet and Ford to price similar models at identical price? I always assumed thered be variations.
    - peter422 4y ago
      It wasn’t just the cost, but the effort. Calling 10+ dealerships, having to track the inventory, etc. Just getting on a centralized waiting list would have been 10x easier and more user friendly.
  - fma 4y ago

zeeb 4y ago

I imagine the +$20k "market adjustment" markups on the F-150 lightning (and other EV's and hybrids) [0] by dealerships probably factored into this decision. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-dealer-markups/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-d...

alexktz 4y ago
It 100% factored into my decision to cancel my pre-order for a Lightning. The dealer said to me via email in December 2021: The latest communication is that order banks will open in January. Ford will be sending invitations to build / order in waves as to keep up with the demand. The invitations will be prioritized based on reservation time stamps. Your reservation is number 138 at our location. I have no way to track where you are in the total reservation list. Once 2022 model orders have been fulfilled, Ford will start the process over again. They expect to start taking orders for 2023 models about mid next year. Given the demand and number of reservation ahead of you, it is reasonable to think that you will not be able to order until mid 2022 for a 2023 model. I also need to mention that Managment has indicated there will be an addendum added to the MSRP. We are expecting that to be about $10,000 but could be a little lower or higher dependant on supply vs demand. I called Ford corporate who didn't care. So I canceled my preorder and decided not to proceed with becoming a net new Ford customer so long as dealers are involved. This news gives me hope that model is not long for this world - thank goodness.
- cschep 4y ago
  Count me as another "will buy an f-150 lightning if they will take my money but not if I have to go through a dealer". I don't know how many of us there are but I really hope enough that I never have to go to a dealer again.
  - natch 4y ago
    And no Supercharger network. Kind of nuts to buy an EV without that.
- 4y ago

paxys 4y ago

A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is truly little or no advantage, why has this obvious disruption never come up in the last ~100+ years of car sales in this country and all over the world?

PainfullyNormal 4y ago
FortNine made a case for it. They're Canadian, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHYBhcpdvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHYBhcpdvQ
guerrilla 4y ago
> Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? Proximity and diversity. How are you going to have direct sales depots in every random town in the world? And which towns get which brands? Makes no sense.
- erichocean 4y ago
  > How are you going to have direct sales depots in every random town in the world? How about The Internet? Might work…
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    The Internet is terrible for such things. You want to see it and feel it, test drive it, kick the tires. .
FpUser 4y ago
They could sell used vehicles, hence provide some value
- 4y ago

kemiller 4y ago

The more companies copy Tesla and outdo them at things Tesla is bad at, the better for all of us. And hopefully force Tesla to get better.

grecy 4y ago
Elon recently tweeted "Competition is good for the consumer".

lvl102 4y ago

Counter: Ford dealerships actually give them a big advantage over Tesla. This is because there are close to 3,000 dealerships in the US compared to less than 200 for Tesla.

jmtulloss 4y ago
This isn’t quite fair but that was blockbuster’s counter to netflix too
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Maybe. You know the rule: I bet 20% of those dealerships do 80% of the sales. Or at least 80% of Ford's profits. The overhead of HQ servicing each dealership is (approx) fixed. Some cover that with plenty to spare, others might be barely breakeven (after dealer incentives et al). That said, even 20% of 3k is still 600 so that does feel like a positive for Ford (even without the dead weight).

allthecybers 4y ago

I have a lot of optimism for The Ford EV business. First they are making some great EVs and they aren’t to proud or set in their ways to realize the friction points for prospective EV buyers and owners. If they keep making the right moves, and improving the whole Ford EV experience, I might be inclined to purchase a Ford EV next time instead of another Tesla.

superultra 4y ago

I bought a (Toyota) Scion xB when it first came to the States in 2004. The brand rollout was fixed-price, advertised as no-haggle. A big play for that era's Gen Z, Gen X. Focus was on personal customizations as upgrades, not much else rom the mono-spec model. I loved the whole concept. Dealerships hated it. I loved that car, drove it until it the wheels fell off. Point being, Tesla is hardly the first one to pull off this model. https://www.toyotaofrichardson.com/blog/2016/september/29/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-scion.htm https://www.toyotaofrichardson.com/blog/2016/september/29/a-...

signatoremo 4y ago
As someone else mentioned, it wasn’t online. You still had to deal with dealership. Sometimes Scion showroom was right next to Toyota’s one, practically the same people. Also, it no longer exists. Dealers don’t like it because they make less profit off Scion cars. The incentive wasn’t there. You can see how it is different than the direct model Tesla use, and Ford is contemplating to adopt
- superultra 4y ago
  I am pretty sure that I did buy online-ish. I filled out a customization form on the Scion website (it was a fancy webpage for 2003/4, but bascially just a very basic form submission), and then got an email a few days later from the nearest dealership (at the time I had to drive a couple of states over to get it), and it went from there. But there was no negotiation. I walked in, signed papers, and drove out with a car. Pretty revolutionary for 2004. And true Scion as a brand no longer exists, but it lasted pretty long. In this case, Ford is not saying away with the dealerships - they're looking at them as distribution hubs, basically...like Scion.

medler 4y ago

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happened between Amazon and Target. Target could have gone away, but they didn't. They bolted on an e-commerce platform and then they used their physical store to add groceries and return -- make returns really much easier than Amazon. They used their expertise as a physical retailer to their advantage, but they modernized the e-commerce piece. So it would be really easy to do business with them. It's exactly what we have to do on the retail side. We got to go to non-negotiated price. We've got to go to a 100% online, the vehicle there is no inventory goes directly to the customer, 100% remote pickup and delivery, but then we have this opportunity to use our physical presence, they outperform them. Like, I believe some Mach-E and Lightning customers would love to have a Mustang for the weekend. Maybe they want a Super Duty. I can do that, they can't do that, unless they ran a Ford.” Source: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4515793-ford-motor-company-f-ceo-james-farley-presents-bernstein-38th-annual-strategic-decisions https://seekingalpha.com/article/4515793-ford-motor-company-...

bombcar 4y ago
Speaking of Target they’re getting sneaky - the online for pickup or delivery price is often higher than the same item instore. Once I saw that I got a bit sad.
- antiterra 4y ago
  In my experience it’s usually the opposite and I have to ask for a price match to the online price. It is their policy in the contiguous US to price match target.com to Target Store and Target Store to target.com. The policy doesn’t cover Target Store to other Target Store.
  - dixie_land 4y ago
    not target, but the “contiguous US” part reminded me of the time where at a Hawaii Walmart they refused to price match walmart.com. so I just ordered online right then and there and chose to pick up in the same store. I watched the same staff picking up the same item from the shelf and called me to the online pick up area…

flashgordon 4y ago

So last year I was looking to buy a car (and now you know where I am going with this). I honestly went in thinking may be just perhaps dealerships have become less scummy after all these years. Boy was I in for a shock. Call it supply demand or what not the completely unscrupulous slapping of MVA on cars whose supply was constrained because of their miscalculation made me sooo damn mad. Heck I even wondered why the hell did Daniel Caruso chose to be a car dealer in Cobra Kai is beyond me!!!

sanguy 4y ago

Good riddance to the dealerships.

Jedd 4y ago

> It's unclear if Ford also plans to implement this sales strategy shift for its non-EV products. Oh, I think it's pretty clear that unless this strategy goes totally off the rails, that's definitely where they're heading. It'll converge (albeit at different rates) with the shift away from selling non-EV products altogether. Apart from the obvious and immediate profit bumps, there's knock-on effects, such as not forcing your customers to deal with the second least trusted profession in the USA. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/11/americas-most-least-trusted-professions-infographic/?sh=146d012c7e94 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/11/americ...

osigurdson 4y ago

So, in other words, copy Tesla.

Vladimof 4y ago
no... Tesla sells all their cars like this... Ford is just testing the waters
- osigurdson 4y ago
  That fact that Tesla only sells EVs and has no dealer network seems obvious but if you think the clarification is needed this is fine.

CSMastermind 4y ago

I just bought a new car and it was an awful experience having to go through a dealer. I pray that some time in my lifetime we see direct to consumer car sales.

nemo44x 4y ago

Buy $F.

rmason 4y ago

The dealer lobby is extremely powerful. Here in Michigan they give to both parties. When they wanted to stop Tesla from having showrooms in the state they got a bipartisan bill passed at 2 am! Just was talking to someone today from Ford and chatted about that story. I said how much are you going to pay the dealer for every EV sold in their territory? He said nothing like that has been in the press. I teased him that's not exactly a denial. Are they going to be paid something to have EV's in the showroom or available for test drives? I was told you will have to wait and see. Dealers aren't going to need the amount of real estate they've got now. Dealers make the most money from service, used cars and finally new car sales. I have noticed that some dealers have made the investment to service EV's which includes training and a minimum of two charging stations. But some dealers have chosen not to do so. I would imagine the dealers not moving to service EV's are at some point in the future going to take a buyout and close their dealership, but that's just a guess.

chrismartin 4y ago

None of this amounts to much while Ford's ability to produce EVs remains low. Ford sells about a million ICE trucks per year in the US, but they're only planning about 150k total F-150s Lightning through mid-2023, and the waiting list is multiple years long. (For comparison, Tesla now sells 100k EVs per month.) What's the bottleneck with Ford building electric powertrains? Is it still the semiconductor shortage? Batteries? Production tooling?

ranman 4y ago

Wait didn't they lobby against this like... 10 years ago?

milkytron 4y ago

This article doesn't mention the fact that Ford is splitting into multiple units[0]. It makes sense for allowing current Ford dealerships to operate, however they may, but also allowing the online sales through a separate division with it's own business model. This puts some real pressure on dealerships to change, as we slowly transition to a more EV world. [0]https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083913314/ford-modele-split-units-electric-gas https://www.npr.org/2022/03/02/1083913314/ford-modele-split-...

OnionBlender 4y ago

I absolutely hate dealerships. I tried to buy a Mazda 3 a few years ago and the dealer took my keys and driver's license with some stupid excuse. I didn't realize until later that it was a tactic to prevent me from walking out the door when I wanted.

0x00000000 4y ago
Yeah that’s a tactic human traffickers use too.
wmeredith 4y ago
I had a Jeep dealer in Kansas City do this to me,. Then refuse to give them back and literally stood in from of an exit to prevent me from leaving. I told them I was calling the cops. They gave them back.

SMAAART 4y ago

oh look, Ford is taking a page off the Tesla's book.

dang 4y ago

Url changed from https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40175990/ford-online-sales-no-negotiation/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40175990/ford-online-sale..., which points to this.

neonate 4y ago

https://archive.ph/KDXzM https://archive.ph/KDXzM

chrissnell 4y ago

The bicycle industry is rapidly moving to factory stores. The big brands are buying out their more-successful dealers and turning them into branded stores, locking out any other brands that the dealer sold in the process. For example, Specialized will buy a store from a retiring dealer, get rid of the Cannondale inventory, and re-brand it as "Specialized Bikes". This strengthens their brand and creates consistency, while simultaneously shutting out their manufacturer competition from the market. The smaller dealers in little towns are completely screwed. They'll probably perish and be replaced by the manufacturer's online presence. Perhaps local "mobile bike repair" outfits will pop up to do local assembly and support.

Vladimof 4y ago

Hope they get the price point competitive with ICE vehicles...

travisgriggs 4y ago

Corwin Ford came into our area, put all of the other dealers out of business over the last 10 years and hold forth with terrible prices and service. I avoid them at all cost. The dealer model (not just for cars) may have been a “good thing” once upon a time. When I talk to older generations, they always seem taken with the idea of a “good dealer”, someone to “take care of you.” But by and large (there are some exceptions), dealer model seems to have generally become less mutually beneficiary. In most domains, I loathe them.

julianlam 4y ago
That's just Stockholm syndrome with a dash of ignorance thrown in. Their idea of a "good dealer" was one who only ripped them off moderately.

kelp 4y ago

I bought my Volvo C40 EV this way, though it wasn't exactly seamless and the overall price I ended up paying wasn't as clear as it could have been, though it was all discounts in the end. I put in the order through Volvo online, and they confirmed the build sometime the middle of last year. Volvo had an online order tracker, that shows progress from order acceptance to the car being in production, etc. But it was never actually updated. I was a little worried the car wasn't going to show up before my existing lease was up in June. So I contacted Volvo customer support in early March and they surprised me by telling me the car was going to be delivered to the dealer the next week. I had heard nothing from anyone in months, so that was a big surprise. I called the dealer, who I'd never talked to until that point, and they confirmed the car was coming in the next week and setup an appointment to pick it up. Because used car prices are crazy they could also buy out my leased ICE Volvo and give me a bit of money back for it. So the price I paid (another lease) ended up including the new C40 at MSRP, minus trade-in, minus CA EV credit, minus Federal EV credit, and minus a Volvo loyalty discount. It wall worked out pretty well, but would have been nice if their order status page actually showed order status. I imagine it was a manual process to update it and somehow that wasn't getting done. I heard from other they had the same experience.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago

In many other parts of the world, even North America, the MSRP is the price of the car. There is no negotiating (at least, not upwards, and definitely not usually). I don't understand why this is newsworthy? I bought a non-EV in the last decade by putting the order together online on the manufacturer's national website, then processing it through a dealership. Buying a car in the US was so unnecessarily stupid because of all the haggling and pussyfooting around what the damn thing is actually going to cost.

seattle_spring 4y ago
If you haven't bought a car in the last year or so then you're out of the loop. Stock is low and prices are above MSRP pretty much across the board. For especially in demand cars like the Lighting or Toyota RAV4 Prime the "dealership markup" can be 50% more than MSRP or more.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  This is a problem predominantly only in the US. It's simply not legal to sell above MSRP here, for example.

NonNefarious 4y ago

That's not gonna sit well with red states, bro. They're the ones that made selling directly to customers ILLEGAL... even by an American company.

paraknight 4y ago

It's my dream to convert a Ford Transit into a campervan, and I've been eyeing the hybrid/EV ones for a while, so this is great! I'll probably not get it new, but still!

alkonaut 4y ago

Everywhere that manufacturers let you make order and wait for your custom car instead of buying from a lot (isn’t that a US only thing?) the dealerships didn’t go away. Dealerships are important as showrooms, service centers, a place to sell (slightly) used cars with brand warranties etc.

rbanffy 4y ago

I’d love that. I hate having to endure the process of making decisions based on partial information given in unstructured form by an often unreliable car salesperson. That’s my day job, thank you. I’m paid for bringing out actual actionable intelligence from such things and I’d like my personal life to be easier.

kkfx 4y ago

In general terms: - I have nothing against such model IF I can test-drive for free the vehicle, so if some vendor bring the vehicle to my home, 24h test, they'll get back no question asked, totally free; - I understand big car industry want to use modern surveillance capitalism for target sells, not much an issue since we already know how this system work; - IF they also provide on-side under-warranty service... They buy back used vehicles with someone who came and evaluate locally... It might be even good IMVHO. It's clear the society at a certain level have shifted back to a direct producer-to-customer model, witch might be perfectly good IF is general supported by standard means, or might be a way to exploit consumers and intermediate OEMs like happen in many cases (cfr. Amazon, Wallmart etc to cite USA examples). The whole issue is probably a whole society comprehension of such model and I doubt there is such understatement without people training...

WalterBright 4y ago

Non-negotiable prices always turn out to be negotiable. Try it - you'll see :-)

redox99 4y ago
I'm pretty sure you can't negotiate a new Tesla price
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Have you tried?

drdunce 4y ago

how do test drives work?

julianlam 4y ago
In an ideal world I'd imagine pop-up touring shops where you can test drive cars and order them at a kiosk on-the-spot. A test drive circus! Ha! Giant already does this with bikes, in my area. They rent out carpool lots in low periods (weekends, basically) and people come from all over to check out their bikes. Sure it's a little less instant gratification, but I wouldn't mind waiting a couple weeks for a Mazda pop-up to come by if it ends up being cheaper than a dealership.

MobileVet 4y ago

The dealership model has become a liability to brands and it is high time they take control back. Can you imagine Apple letting some local business put their name and logo on their store? Sure, some dealerships are solid but when ‘used car salesman’ is a trope, you have a problem. The current supple deficit and resulting dealer markups are a direct result of a short term perspective that damages the overall brand in the long run.

jguimont 4y ago

Polestar is doing the hybrid model too. online order, single price, single wait list and leveraging a set of volvo dealerships for delivery and maintenance. i think this is the perfect model.

ddingus 4y ago

Just a quick note on dealers: The last new Ford I bought from a dealer was a 6 hour experience. I came ready and got my vehicle for 3 percent over invoice and avoided all the cost pack ins at contract. It was brutal. And I used sales skills, as a buyer, learned from high octane types that get that money no matter what. In the years following, people gladly paid me $1k, plus a percent of the savings off MSRP, to buy cars for them. Did that a few times for a little extra spiff on my vehicle buy. Was a Ford Expedition, 2000 era vehicle. Those are made on the F150 platform and are great outdoors rigs, though I won't ever get another one, nor a new vehicle from a dealer again. Someone will make an EV Expedition type rig. Probably Ford will and I want it. People paying non trivial money to avoid the dealers is exactly why Ford is doing what they are doing.

DeathArrow 4y ago

>He teased that the company sees potentially huge profits in building an electric vehicle for ride-hailing services Lyft and Uber. Yes. Especially because Uber and Lyft closing business is just a matter of time.

andjd 4y ago

I, for one, think transparent, non-negotiable pricing would be a net benefit for consumers. While there has been consolidation in the automotive space, there's still a fairly large number of players, so there will still be competition on price. The status quo, where prices are negotiated at dealerships, allows car companies to keep their real prices secret, and allows them to get more money from consumers who are less comfortable negotiating or don't have the time or energy to figure out what the real price should be. Fixed pricing will be higher for some, but it will also be lower for many. Fixed pricing also makes it much easier to compare prices across brands, which should result in a more competitive market.

peanut_worm 4y ago

Car dealerships are an unapologetic scam so I welcome this with open arms.