28 ms·

I disabled WiFi on the new Samsung fridge

489 points by rapnie 4y ago

gambiting 4y ago
1) what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the first place? 2) surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? Despite what the internet would lead you to believe, there is still a lot of fridges without WiFi and "smart" features out there, why not buy one of those rather than mess with this? Edit: point 2 was addressed in the article, sorry I missed it
- blenderdt 4y ago
  There are rumors it will try to connect to an open network when in range. Related HN question from years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350
  - speedgoose 4y ago
    It's also official feature if you have an Amazon product, it will connect to an Amazon WiFi hotspot of another Amazon device: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 Thankfully it's only an US feature.
- paranoidrobot 4y ago
  > what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the first place? Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP so allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could attach it to their network, and then do whatever they like with it. > surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made that decision.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    Is the AP active literally all the time until you set it up? Usually in these devices it only activates once you select an option in the menu, or shortly after first start - but yeah, if it's on 24/7 until configured, then I agree that's a problem.
    - paranoidrobot 4y ago
      I don't know, I don't have the device. I do have a Samsung TV, and no matter what I do, I can't turn off the Wifi/Bluetooth radios in it - and several of my neighbours keep trying to connect to it. The Google Chromecasts continually broadcast their AP when not fully set up. A neighbour has a bluetooth/wifi speaker that pushed some kind of "Do you want to set up your X brand speaker now?" prompt to my phone. There's a few other smart devices near me that are also broadcasting open APs that never seem to go away.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made that decision. It is irrelevant anyway. Buying something with the intent of modding it is not that unreasonable.
  - moolcool 4y ago
    > Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP so allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could attach it to their network, and then do whatever they like with it. Considering the security risk of smart devices generally working like this, I feel like the industry ought to standardize on something more sensible. Maybe some kind of NFC pairing?
    - yrro 4y ago
      It's called WPS. God knows why manufacturers prefer to do something as iduotic as crearing their own WiFi access point rather than using it!
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        WPS is severely broken and insecure. And the QR/NFC thing they added to replace it will require quite new devices.
        yrro 4y ago
        WPS PIN method is severely broken and insecure, absolutely typical of most stuff put out by the Wi-Fi Alliance. As far as I know, WPS push button method is fine. I haven't ever needed or wanted to try to use the NFC method, I would disable it on any equipment I installed until I had a need for it. And even then I would do some research to see how badly the Wi-Fi Alliance fucked it up before making a judgement about whether I would feel comfortable enabling it.
      - Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
        Depending on the router manufacturer you may not be able to disable WPS pin and keep WPS push button (this is the case of the router that was supplied by my ISP as it comes with a rather dumbed down UI, not sure if I could disable it via editing a settings backup file and applying that back to the router as I use my own equipment, but most consumers will just use the router issued to them from their ISP). WPS enter pin has a max number of possibilities of 11k pins (it checks the pin in 2 half’s and the last digit is a check digit, so 10k possibilities for the first half and 999 possibilities for the 2nd half), and some routers don’t rate limit the connection requests. Some router manufacturers fixed the issue by removing WPS pin, others “fixed” it by rate limiting WPS pin connection attempts, but that will just delay the attack. So we are left with WPS Push button (if that’s available because as stated above, consumer routers may only allow disabling WPS completely rather than just disable WPS pin). But thats a bit of a pain for items like Shellys that are designed to be put behind fixtures. But yeah, in the case of a fridge and most other consumer grade equipment putting a push button somewhere for WPS Push Button should be easy to factor in.
- ant6n 4y ago
  > 2) … there is still a lot of fridges without WiFi and "smart" features out there, … for now. That’s not true anymore for example for TVs.
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    Yeah, but Wi-Fi for a tv makes sense. It’s borderline mandatory for the way people consume content these days. Wi-Fi for fridges is available, but no one seems that bothered by it.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  The appliances came with the property.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  Were I making the purchasing decision, wifi wouldn't factor in. If the fridge that turns out to be the best option happened to have wifi, then I'd trust myself to work out how to jail it, whether hardware "off"-ing it as per this guy, or blackholing it's connection, or just not connecting it at all (with the knowledge that some devices are rumoured to connect to any accessible open wifi).
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > with the knowledge that some devices are rumoured to connect to any accessible open wifi It is also quite possible that these come with cellular connectivity in the future as well…
    - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
      Is it legal to use a jammer on appliances that you've purchased? Just need to know where one can purchase said cellular jammer...
      - tpxl 4y ago
        It's generally going to be easier to disable the signal circuits on the appliances than to jam them. Either wrap them in foil, disconnect the circuits, or wait for some brave soul to figure out what to break for it to stop working. That being said, jamming is relatively easy, just saturate the channel you want to jam with noise. That will also probably kill your cellular connection though.
      - kergonath 4y ago
        YMMV, but around here jammers are illegal, full stop. I suppose one could put their appliances in a faraday cage or wrap them in tin foil…
- prmoustache 4y ago
  2) Author mentionned it came with the place.
- nixass 4y ago
  >>2. surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? It says right there in the article: these appliances came with the new place so i’ll be stuck with these i imagine for some time
VoidWhisperer 4y ago
It should be legally required for these products to allow for people to turn 'smart' features off if they want to. Unfortunately, it probably won't be any time soon.
- deepstack 4y ago
  As consumers, we ought to demand that. I like IoT, however if this is how the manufacturers gonna play it, I would rather have old stove and fridges with no internet access. Let's vote with our money.
- Doches 4y ago
  I'd rather flip this solution on its head: why are our markets for consumer goods /so broken/ that there's no headroom for a startup making quality, 'not-smart' appliances to break in? Consumer home appliances feel like they ought to be a textbook case of innovator's dilemma, with incumbents moving up and to the right in complexity and opening up space at the bottom for new manufacturers. And yet...
  - RL_Quine 4y ago
    The smart features of a TV subsidize its price. A "non smart" device manufacturer has to sell at a dramatically non competitive price because they aren't selling user data or flooding advertising into the content shown. Sitting on a shelf, who would buy a TV with less features for double or three times the price?
    - Doches 4y ago
      For TVs, absolutely, that's a hard value proposition to beat. But you can't tell me that there's anything like as much profit delta between 'dumb' and smart...refrigerators.
      - RL_Quine 4y ago
        There's a hot tub brand who include LTE radios in their hot tubs to ensure that they always have an analytics channel irrespective of what the user configures. Why on earth? It means they can target advertising for consumables and services. Same goes for fridges which need replacement filters, fresheners, whatever, you've just got to dupe the user into giving you internet connectivity, or accept the cost of putting a cellphone radio in your product.
swiper_lux 4y ago
Can't you just block it at your router?
- askvictor 4y ago
  Or don't enter your wifi credentials to start with?
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Might work on this model but more and more appliances refuse to work at all until they’re connected to WiFi. Additionally, “Amazon Sidewalk” allows appliances to connect to your neighbors Wi-Fi automatically if your own isn’t working for it.
    - VoidWhisperer 4y ago
      According to Samsung's site, assuming this is the same model of fridge (Family Hub Refrigerator?), it is technically possible to skip the WiFi setup, but some people are pointing out there are rumors that it will try to connect to open wifi to still phone home to samsung.
- iamphilrae 4y ago
  Changing router means you have to re-block. Plus nothing better (more reassuring) than an actual air-gap from the internet.
- VoidWhisperer 4y ago
  Below the main post: "since this got boosted if anyone happens to know about service manuals for appliances, lmk. i’m textin a buddy about this and now we just wanna kill it instead my backup plan (forever dhcp lease + block IP from pf.conf). even the manuals i can find online from samsung don’t mention the smart features, it seems to be more of a “don’t burn down your house idiot” thing " It seems their plan was to block it at a network level if they couldn't do this.
- deleted 4y ago
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lqet 4y ago
This is basically why I paid 100 EUR to have the 23 years old cheap Whirlpool stove that came with our apartment fixed. It has 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of them, the corresponding plate gets hot. Simplicity lasts longer.
- walrus01 4y ago
  When I was maybe 20 years old and naive as hell, I thought it was funny that the older neighbors were really enthusiastic about their older fully analog, non-computerized Toyota Land Cruiser. They did all their own repairs on it. Now I understand.
- paskozdilar 4y ago
  > It has 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of them, the corresponding plate gets hot. The smartest stove of them all - does one thing and does it well.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    Opposite is true for single use kitchen gadgets: https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/12/alton-brown-is-right-to-scorn-single-use-kitchen-gadgets-and-the-people-who-buy-them.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/12/alton-brown-is-righ...
    - dendriti 4y ago
      Single-use gadgets can be blessings for the disabled and differently abled. The author of this article is sneering at the disabled for having different tool needs than herself. My 80-something grandmother uses a garlic press and several sizes of vegetable holders for slicing veggies. I guess she's just so uncool.
      - systemvoltage 4y ago
        Most of these single use things are a product of Teleshopping and other terrible marketing schemes.
numlock86 4y ago
Why so much trouble to "disable" WiFi instead of simply not using it?
- StreamBright 4y ago
  Because of security. You do not know how exploitable the setup is. There were instances when these appliances connected to open Wifis and called home. Imagine same but attacker doing a drive by with open Wifi.
  - VoidWhisperer 4y ago
    If it will try to connect to any open wifi, I can definitely see why'd you want to disable the wifi at a hardware level, since at that either you let it connect to the internet in its own, insecure way, or use your secured wifi network - in both cases it'll phone home.
  - nagonago 4y ago
    What would a hacker possibly have to gain stealing data from smart fridges? Blackmail you with evidence that you don't buy free-range eggs?
    - StreamBright 4y ago
      Well there are few options. I am not a black hat and my imagination is not as vivid but I think if somebody makes my fridge turn off is bad enough. More sophisticated attackers might use it as a vector to get in to your home network. Not sure.
    - VoidWhisperer 4y ago
      All it takes is the fridge having one vulnerability that is exploitable by it connecting to the network and suddenly your fridge is part of a botnet..
    - kergonath 4y ago
      It’s another possible vector to infiltrate other devices on the network. Like smart bulbs, smart switches, security cameras, smart scales, and what have you. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario in which the fridge is the weakest link. A smart fridge can also be botnetisied like any of these.
nagonago 4y ago
Couldn't you just never connect it to your router? Why bother disabling it? Security risk?
- lini 4y ago
  If you don't some of your neighbors might. I installed an app to control my AC remotely and when i pressed the button to add all units in range it automatically added one more than there were in my apartment. I had complete control over the AC unit of some unsuspecting neighbour - I could see its status and control everything from my phone anywhere in the world. I suspect it's not that bad for fridges, but you still might be able to do some harm there as well.
  - kolinko 4y ago
    Could be worse - I live in an apartament complex and everyone’s home control is on it’s own network but with the same password. We cannot change it - even as apartament owners. So, if a neighbors party gets too loud you can go an aggressive way and just turn off their lights and lower curtains… or go passive aggressive way and bring their AC waay down so they begin to suffer but may not realise why :D The whole system runs on some sort of an outdated linux servers, so one day I plan to hack my own home’s access network to get a root finally.
soared 4y ago
Completely unrelated, but I’ve heard of mastodon a lot but never used it. Now I get it though - the UI is really nice and reminiscent of the internet I used to know. I thought I opened an app somehow on accident… snappy ui, no ads, perfectly scaled to my device’s screen, etc.
- rsolva 4y ago
  Another benefit to the Fediverse is that many clients exists to the same backend, and they all have access to the same API / features. No "official" or "third-party" clients or apps, which has proven to encourage developers to make apps for many platforms (JS, android, iOS, TUIs, GNOME, KDE, etc)
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I think this is just a normal PWA,though. In fact, I think this is a rather website-like PWA at that, with the obvious links at the top. This is the system Google intends PWAs to be, just quick, snappy, easily accessible websites that behave like they belong on your device. Sadly, most "apps" seem to copy the bloated, heavy, mostly JS-based approach we find in native apps, which is besides the point. Take the Twitter web-app, for example, that's a bloated mess that needs some serious optimisation. The alternative front-end, Nitter.net, does a lot better in almost every aspect. It's fast, accessible, and does just about everything except writing tweets and putting together a wall of followed accounts for you. I like mastodon but I still prefer a native app over the web UI because it just feels that little bit too "web" for me. The main advantage obviously isn't the UI but the decentralized nature of the platform; a clean UI just helps them be a better alternative for the closed ecosystem of traditional social media.
- deleted 4y ago
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neilv 4y ago
Two of my favorites: https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/programmers_know_the_risks_involved/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/pro...
nextlevelwizard 4y ago
Controversially I would like to have fridge and stove that could send me telemetry over Wi-Fi. I currently have RuuviTag in my fridge to monitor temperature and moisture, but I can't put one in my oven for obvious reasons (and it couldn't monitor stove anyway). Obviously neither should have any actual controls over Wi-Fi, but getting a notification about open fridge door, being able to check if stove or oven is on while away from home, or getting report when something (is about to) breaks would be neat.
- Tepix 4y ago
  > could send me telemetry over Wi-Fi Well, this isn't it. Only the corporations receive your data.
joris9000 4y ago
Rather than disconnecting these type of appliances completely I’d rather disconnect them from the cloud and connect locally, for example using Home Assistant. I have captured an OTA update for my Miele appliance but so far haven’t gotten around to poking around. Has anyone tried something similar?
dmje 4y ago
You'd just buy a dumb fridge in the first place, no? I mean I know with TV it's nearly impossible to buy dumb now but with fridges it's (at least in the UK) still "default is dumb"...
- mattbaker 4y ago
  The appliances came with the apartment/house the author is in, they didn’t choose to buy them.
eterevsky 4y ago
I'm disappointed that all these smart home appliances connect exclusively via WiFi. None of them connect via Ethernet even though they are stationary and often connecting a cable to them could be easy. The WiFi connection is usually unreliable, supports only 2.4 GHz and requires multiple steps to establish.
- disillusioned 4y ago
  I mean, who the hell has a Cat-5e drop behind their fridge, though? I imagine a product manager took exactly 100ms to calculate that the answer to that question is "functionally no one" and so there went the $X ethernet connector from the build, for patently obvious reasons. Hell, I'd love to know Sonos's ethernet adoption rate, since they certainly have that data. I'd bet it's fairly high since Sonos is a bit up-market and sometimes professionally installed, or installed by enthusiasts, but I'm willing to guess it's < 5%, and realistically, < 1%, even if we only obviously limit the sample size to "Sonos devices that are eth capable."
  - eterevsky 4y ago
    Just last year I moved to a new home and was installing ethernet around the house. I could've easily made an extra port or two in the kitchen. I generally like receiving a notification when the dishwasher is finished with the dishes, but with the current WiFi setup it's always broken and I don't have the energy to fix it. So I would've used it if it were working over Ethernet and I'm not using it now when it can only work over WiFi. Out of home automation devices Philips Hue works only over Ethernet, though there you have the advantage that you can place the hub anywhere you like.
  - passivate 4y ago
    You can say that about anything though. Most people aren't writing code or building binaries, so you might as well take the ability of the end user to write code or run any unsigned unauthorized executables on their PCs. Also most people aren't running old ass executables, so screw backwards compatibility too. I'm sure it will make operating systems a lot less complex if you do down that path, but most people here would revolt if that was done by any OS vendor.
wardedVibe 4y ago
Cory Doctorow has a story on IoT devices being used to control the behavior of poor people https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
- namibj 4y ago
  Thanks, awesome read!
carlsborg 4y ago
What happens if you change the WiFi password?
8fingerlouie 4y ago
I keep most IoT things on a tight leash. I have a couple of IoT VLANs that devices gets sorted into by my level of percieved trust. Things like AppleTV and Sonos goes into the trusted one, things like Printers, various chinese IoT like Aquara sensors, Eufy cameras and more are put into the untrusted one. Trusted devices have static DHCP assigned IPs, as well as printers (for AirPrint and mDNS) Everything in the untrusted VLAN is blocked by MAC address in the firewall in the outbound direction. I keep a (surprisingly small) spreadsheet of all my firewall rules, so migrating to a new firewall is a matter of spending 30 minutes setting up the 50 or so lines from the spreadsheet, of which most are rules for allowing inter VLAN traffic, i.e. allow AirPlay reverse connections from AirPlay capabale devices. I should add that i run Eufy cameras in Homekit mode, so they only need access to talk to a HomeKit bridge/hub (AppleTV/HomePod), and only need internet access for firmware updates.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- alex_duf 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, how do you control that a device has access to its updates, but isn't able to "phone home"?
  - 8fingerlouie 4y ago
    I don't update unless there's a security fix (haha), i have a problem, or a feature i need is released, at which point i simply disable the outbound firewall rule temporarily and "force" an update through whatever controlplane the device has (typically an app). For security fixes, i usually find out through other channels (here or reddit) about some new 0-day, and i will check for updates after that. Considering that the devices are not allowed on the internet, and on a very limited network, the risk of a random "drive by shooting" is rather low.
    - alex_duf 4y ago
      ha, that's sort of what I had in mind but I was wondering what magic trick was I missing. Thanks for the explanation!
thn-gap 4y ago
Has anyone worked on fighting back this kind of telemetry/spyware of essential consumer appliances? I'm thinking something similar to what https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/ does, but but amplified: 1. Someone reverse engineer what does the device send to which address. 2. Block the particular device to access internet (and make it easy for others too). 3. Constantly send bogus data to the manufacturer so the personal data they get overall loses value or is unusable. Make it easy for a lot of people to do it as well, or even just rent a bot farm. There's too many legit and good services that end up being turned down due to abuse and DDos, and they don't even bring anything good to the attackers. Why not using these techniques for something actually good to consumers privacy?
- encrux 4y ago
  Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data to the manufacturer? I'm all for being able to choose whether or not to disclose that data, but then we'll also have to accept different choices than ours. There's no point in sabotaging others.
  - krageon 4y ago
    > Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data to the manufacturer? Because getting a ton of garbage will positively stimulate them to stop trusting this data. That helps everyone.
    - widjit 4y ago
      Though more likely no one will notice/care and they will just sell the bad data regardless
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        If someone's buying the data they will care sooner or later. After all, if they wanted bogus data, they can generate it themselves instead of buying it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kennu 4y ago
I love WiFi on my home appliances. Washing machine sends notifications when it's finished or when it's running out of detergent, air purifier notifies when it's time to change the filter, A/C lets me turn it on remotely when I feel too hot, etc. I don't really get people who opt out of these convenience features.
- simongray 4y ago
  I bought a Samsung TV, was pretty satisfied with it. One day it updated itself and now it has forced some kind of Samsung TV service onto itself that is very visibly promoted whenever I go to switch to a different hooked-up appliance. It annoys me to no end.
  - wincy 4y ago
    I jailbroke my LG TV. So I have shell access but also have a decent smart TV, and I removed all the ads. Also have ad free Youtube. I like it a lot more now.
    - the_biot 4y ago
      You should write this up, sounds pretty interesting.
      - wincy 4y ago
        Hah I literally googled it and used this exploit in the browser. Someone else did the hard work for me. For the ads there’s some python scripts that aren’t working but it’s not super difficult to figure out. https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
    - slategruen 4y ago
      Is LG the only mainstream TV manufacturer which allows this?
    - casenjo 4y ago
tag2103 4y ago
You know these used to say ... and how you can too... back in the good old days.
mcv 4y ago
Why mess with the hardware? Can't you just not give it access to your wifi?
- sound1 4y ago
  I would like to know the pris and cons myself
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nivertech 4y ago
Problem: on the Internet nobody knows you're a fridge. Solution: physically disconnect WiFi.
walrus01 4y ago
Just wait until device manufacturers start integrating always-on LTE modems with their own SIM cards and billing so they can pull device analytics, sell you new advertising, and sell your usage patterns to 3rd parties whether or not you ever connect the things to your home wifi. At which point you'll have to disassemble the damned thing and physically rip out the LTE modem, possibly resulting in the device bricking itself when it can't phone home after a while. I bet if you're a device manufacturer right now and go to t-mobile enterprise sales and tell them you want 200MB of data per month per IMEI and you're going to have 50,000 units, you'll get a very attractive monthly price per unit. Mark my words, it'll be commonplace in another 8-10 years. https://me.me/i/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-wired-to-the-d19985a8762a4e5681ec19b52e632186 https://me.me/i/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-w... https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
- btgeekboy 4y ago
  We're already approaching that point. Most modern cars phone home, and my partner's CPAP machine also has a modem that reports usage info back home, including to their insurance provider.
  - scarby2 4y ago
    The CPAP is extremely useful if used correctly (rather than just enforce compliance). It allows a clinician to monitor remotely for all sorts of issues and follow up with the patient. There are a whole bunch of issues that can occur that a patient may not be aware of because they are asleep. Generally I wish we'd all use some kind of sleep monitoring system or at least we started routine screening for sleep disorders
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      My CPAP just has an SD card which I can remove and bring to the therapist. The benefit of this is that I don't have to rely only on the therapist, I can also read the card myself with tools like OSCAR: https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/ https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/ I would really hate having one that reports via 4G to the therapist only.
perceptronas 4y ago
After articles [1] where expensive Samsung TV show ads I personally avoid anything Samsung. No reason to incentivize their anti-consumer behavior. [1] - https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-spent-3000-on-a-samsung-smart-tv-and-all-i-got-were-ads-and-unwanted-content/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-s...
- FargaColora 4y ago
  Same. Samsung as a brand is dead to me. It is their right to update previously purchased TVs to show adverts. It is my right to consider their brand toxic swill.
  - webinvest 4y ago
    What brands are you looking at now instead?
orbit7 4y ago
Open source Linux based smart appliances would be good. I don't dislike the idea of smart appliances, but if its mine I want full control over what it does.
- dolmen 4y ago
  However the manufcaturers prefer to avoid the risk of a user physically breaking the device from software and the manufacturer having to repair because of legal warantee.
  - Mordisquitos 4y ago
    Surely it would be trivial for the warranty to be void in those cases.
- cgrealy 4y ago
  What percentage of consumers want that? I’m guessing the market is close to zero.
kebman 4y ago
UI Hell: The place I'm renting has an IKEA / Whirlpool ceramic top stove. All digital. And I HATE it. You can't find the touch-buttons in the dark, say when you want to make coffee in the wee morn, so you're forced to turn on lights. When you finally find a button, it takes forever to turn it to max. You have to fiddle around to turn it back down again, first click the button for the corresponding plate you want, then click a separate button to actually power it down. Again, it takes forever. It's also impossible to train tactile memory for it, becuase the buttons are too close and too hard to discern on the dark-on-dark top, so if you try doing it blind, you'll just end up fiddling forever to find the damn thing. If you spill something over the touch area, it'll start beeping and complaining before it turns itself off. Meanwhile the corresponding pot might have already boiled over, and you can't react in time, because the touch panel is covered in boiling liquid. Also, honestly, I think it's actually harder to keep the ceramic top clean than a regular top. Reason: It smudges real easy, and you're never sure how much pressure or abrasives you can use without making scratches. On the old tops, you just didn't have to worry. It could withstand a sledgehammer amount of abuse before scratching or chipping. And don't even get me started on the microwave installed here... I brought my own two-knob micro despite there already being one installed here. That should give you a clue.
- bajsejohannes 4y ago
  It's telling that no professional stoves have capacitive buttons.
  - maccard 4y ago
    Just because something isnt used by professionals doesn't make it unsuitable for domestic use. I don't have a roll cage in my car, for example. That said capacitive touch has no place in the kitchen.
    - chrlac 4y ago
      I'm not sure the example you provide really applies to the situation. Roll cages are mandatory in race cars, so effectively the contrary to "isn't used by professionals" . Also, they can be used in normal road cars. Granted, they're inconvenient but still provide added safety. An example that comes to mind is Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT). Most types of motorsports avoid CVTs for reasons of weight, unreliability and decreased repairability. However, for normal road cars, CVTs are very widespread and they do the job just fine (until they don't, but that's another story!)
oliwarner 4y ago
Why do you need to disassemble and unplug a pin header when you could just not tell it your AP password?
gernb 4y ago
But you still gave them money for a fridge with WiFi signaling to them you want more of the same.
na85 4y ago
>i fucking hate living in the future This pretty much sums up my daily outlook on life.
chippytea 4y ago
I have done the same on my smart tv. I am worried that if everyone starts doing this they will start integrating the wifi card into the motherboard.
kebman 4y ago
Do you make appliances? Want to get rich? Here's your next tag line: "We Make Dumb Appliances."
verisimi 4y ago
No one wants this technology. So why are we getting it anyway? We are getting it because it is essential to the smart cities agenda. It is planned that everything be micromanaged by a technocratic elite. Think of China's social credit score on steroids. Have you used up your allocation of credits? Your fridge/heating/etc can be switched off. Have you been a bad citizen, posting dissenting comments online? Then you can't travel, will have your bank account frozen/constrained. A digital pass and smart technology everywhere are required. Then technocrats can have fine-grained control of everything. This will be done in the name of the environment - in the name of 'saving the earth' most of us will choose digital enslavement and will even force it on others. ^ That's the plan in a nutshell - which is aimed to be in place for 2030. https://www.technocracy.news/ https://www.technocracy.news/
chimen 4y ago
I love people complaining about stuff that they did not pay for. That thread is full of it. You can just buy a fridge without those options you know? A dumb fridge, dumb whatever - they are out there.
- virtual_void 4y ago
  Yes, whilst you still can. Good luck finding a high quality dumb tv these days.
867-5309 4y ago
>i fucking hate living in the future *buys a wifi-enabled fridge* ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- als0 4y ago
  He didn’t buy it, it was there when he moved in. If you’re renting then you can’t afford to keep replacing fridges.
  - 867-5309 4y ago
    must admit I didn't read past the main tweet!
    - 867-5309 4y ago
      >If you’re renting then you can’t afford to keep replacing fridges. I'm sure you could if you were renting in e.g. Malibu, LA for >$100,000/wk
witx 4y ago
This is something that stresses me a lot. I care about fighting against these non-features but most people around don't care and have the mentality of "I have nothing to hide" I've lost count the amount of times I thought about "I should just do an open-source version of <some home appliance I need and is full of spy/crapware>"
kkfx 4y ago
Mh, so far there are in the market "not-smart fridges and freezers", AFAIK no law so far impose buying a connected one so... If someone sell crap I see not much reasons to buy...
henvic 4y ago
My Samsung washing machine has Wi-Fi. It's quite useful to know when laundry is ready... but it also allows me to say what I'm laundering, and it'll configure the machine for me. However, it doesn't allow me to turn it on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I imagine that forcing me to be physically near it and press a button to turn it on is a safety mechanism, but it sucks. Especially because it isn't clear whether this is something that can be configured or by design. I've tried everything to change this, but failed to find a way to remotely power it (I'd rather always use my smartphone to configure & turn it on).
GekkePrutser 4y ago
I added WiFi to my fridge and it's pretty great. It will tell me when the door is left ajar or when the temperature goes too high or low in either the fridge or freezer compartment. However I made it myself with an ESP8266 and some Dallas sensors. So it only works for me. Not for anyone else.
- stonewareslord 4y ago
  > made it myself with an ESP8266 Do you have a recommendation on how to start an ESP8266 project? Which board/power supply/??? Did you buy to do this for example
  - eulers_secret 4y ago
    Consider checking out https://esphome.io/ https://esphome.io/ I personally buy whatever esp32 is on Amazon and use whatever usb power bricks I have laying around.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      In fact this is exactly what I used!
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    I use the WeMos D1 Mini. It's a small board with fewer pins than a NodeMCU or Lolin D32 board but more than sufficient for stuff like this. The ESP32 is more powerful but to be honest for a simple bunch of wifi sensors it's overkill. Though one thing that is nice is that the ESP32 has a dual-core CPU meaning the WiFi can run on the second core. It's more responsive as a result but again, for this kind of stuff it doesn't really matter. You can find WeMos (or knockoffs which work fine) for 2$ everywhere. The ESP32 also has bluetooth which the 8266 doesn't. But WiFi and BT can't be used at the same time, you can turn them both on but they have to share the 'airtime' meaning more airtime for BT is more packet loss for wifi. If I need both I will usually just use 2 for this reason :) For programming I used https://ESPHome.io https://ESPHome.io which is perfect for Home Assistant and you can program it right from the Home Assistant interface, just by declaring a few variables. I even have a $2 OLED display hooked up to it (SSD1306 1-color typical aliexpress thingy), works perfectly. It's highly recommended, let me know if you have more questions. And yeah like the other person said, power supply for these boards is irrelevant, any USB supply will do. They're not fussy because they don't use a lot of power unlike a pi.
lpointal 4y ago
Can't you just disconnect the antenna ?
thiht 4y ago
Why the hell would you even buy a fridge that has WiFi?
deltaonefour 4y ago
or just don't give it the password. Much simpler.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
Are smart fridges even that common? I bought all new appliances last year, and none of them were smart. I don't even remember seeing any smart ones at the shop. Granted, this was an appliance store in a town of about 8000 people... but it seems to me they're more gimmicks for people with too much money than a part of most peoples every day life.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Considering that every tv available through most distributors is now a smart-tv, and the general proliferation of IoT, I'd see it becoming entirely commonplace unless consumers have an alternative among the competition.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    huh. I stopped using TVs years ago, so never made the transition to a smart one.
monkeynotes 4y ago
Can't you more simply not give the fridge your wifi password? Just keep it off of a network, seems much easier than opening it up and voiding a warranty.
- alamortsubite 4y ago
  5g and embedded modems will make it so much easier for consumers to get their new devices up and running!
btbuildem 4y ago
I feel like our best bet is "Right to Repair" legislation. Claw back ownership to mean real ownership, not veiled rental. RTR should include access to the software running these products, this way people could modify things, brick their appliances if they really want to, turn off "call home" features, etc.
JoeDaDude 4y ago
Looks like he just unplugged the WiFi modem/module. But the software that looks for a WiFi connection is still thee and operating, which is no big deal on a fridge, but on a TV it really extends the startup time as the TV won't be fully on until its has searched for WiFi connections, even if it fails to find one.
nemo44x 4y ago
Once everything in the home is connected, governments can pass laws that essentially force appliance manufactures to limit use of appliances. In the name of climate change or w/e. Everyone is limited to 1 dishwasher session during drought season. Fridges run a few degrees warmer during heat waves to conserve energy. Or it gets factored into your personal and family ESG score which can be used to discriminate. Are you doing your part, comrade?
- Gunnerhead 4y ago
  This is terrifying.
- jonnycomputer 4y ago
  This seems extremely unlikely to me.
- lupire 4y ago
  Much easier to just limit total electricity or water usage, at the meter. "Comrade", if you source your own water and don't rely on "communism when it's convenient for me", water limits aren't a problem.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  > Are you doing your part, comrade? Your dig at communism doesn't make sense: This dystopia you describe is being actively built by capitalist companies operating within a market economy and encouraged by democratically elected governments.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    The commies never gave up. They marched through the institutions and created de facto commissars within the corporate structure which are generally a part of HR. The commissars are called DEI and ESG now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
auton1 4y ago
I use AdGuard DNS on my Samsung ‘smartTV’ to get rid of the ads. Drives me nuts that we’re forced to have ads on devices we own.
jimmaswell 4y ago
This stuff makes me roll my eyes. The wifi fridge isn't going to hurt you. Personally I think it sounds cool to have your Google calendar on your fridge.
- eric_cc 4y ago
  > The wifi fridge isn't going to hurt you. Do you have a source? Proof that it is not a security concern?
- LoveMortuus 4y ago
  I'd like one that would have cameras inside and would know what's inside of it, when they expire and even have an option to order the same products if they're starting to go low! Without me having to do any extra work like scanning each product or entering any data!
  - joshvm 4y ago
    This was the subject of a Silicon Valley skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXu4_K1tMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXu4_K1tMQ This approach is used commercially. Our office is in a co-working space and we have a smart fridge in the kitchen. I should point out we also have a normal shared fridge, but this is like a fancy vending machine. You unlock with an app, take what you want and all the items have an RFID tag, so the system knows what you took and charges you. I assume the workspace managers also get stock alerts. The other end of this is hotel minibars which detect what you take, I guess also using RFID. I know Marriott use these (Berlin for example) to stop people swapping out wine for water or juice. Fun fact, this happened to a friend of mine in managed isolation. The hotel had taken all the booze from the rooms, since alcohol was rationed. You had to order it from room service and they'd leave it outside your door. They swapped it for free, but they weren't surprised. It seems like it happened a lot, but being told at check-in that you can't touch the fridge without risking it charging you seems like penny pinching when you're charging 150+ EUR per night.
    - LoveMortuus 4y ago
lupire 4y ago
swaggboi@eatthrrich.club has a $1500+ fridge to store the the rich leftovers. An autocannibal?
kristianpaul 4y ago
I never connected my TV to wifi
cvccvroomvroom 4y ago
My mom's Samsung fridge tells me whenever it opens and closes. I had to disable notifications. It implies collection of analytics from inside peoples' homes when attached to WiFi.
eclipticplane 4y ago
Can California or New York pass a 'no smart device without an off switch' law so the rest of us in other states can buy CA/NY appliances?
userbinator 4y ago
Every time I read something like this I couldn't feel happier with my late 30s Frigidaire I reinsulated and restored. There's actually a thriving market for restoring and repairing old dumb appliances, at least in the US, although it's relatively underground.
- code_runner 4y ago
  Are there any good resources online you can share? Sounds interesting.
firefoxd 4y ago
Ah, that reminds me of my good old Westinghouse Radiohub [1]. When the internet goes away, you probably won't be able to freeze stuff no more. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759
tomkwong 4y ago
There’s no privacy agreement to sign when setting up the fridge? I had to click on the Agree button several times when I started with my LG TV!
ricardojoaoreis 4y ago
I did something similar to my LG TV at the expense of losing the motion sensor of the remote… Worth it in my opinion
Friedduck 4y ago
Why would you connect a smart appliance to begin with? It doesn’t have the credentials unless you provide them?

489 points by rapnie 4y ago

1) what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the first place? 2) surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? Despite what the internet would lead you to believe, there is still a lot of fridges without WiFi and "smart" features out there, why not buy one of those rather than mess with this? Edit: point 2 was addressed in the article, sorry I missed it

blenderdt 4y ago
There are rumors it will try to connect to an open network when in range. Related HN question from years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25275350
- speedgoose 4y ago
  It's also official feature if you have an Amazon product, it will connect to an Amazon WiFi hotspot of another Amazon device: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 Thankfully it's only an US feature.
paranoidrobot 4y ago
> what was the issue with not connecting it to WiFi in the first place? Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP so allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could attach it to their network, and then do whatever they like with it. > surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made that decision.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Is the AP active literally all the time until you set it up? Usually in these devices it only activates once you select an option in the menu, or shortly after first start - but yeah, if it's on 24/7 until configured, then I agree that's a problem.
  - paranoidrobot 4y ago
    I don't know, I don't have the device. I do have a Samsung TV, and no matter what I do, I can't turn off the Wifi/Bluetooth radios in it - and several of my neighbours keep trying to connect to it. The Google Chromecasts continually broadcast their AP when not fully set up. A neighbour has a bluetooth/wifi speaker that pushed some kind of "Do you want to set up your X brand speaker now?" prompt to my phone. There's a few other smart devices near me that are also broadcasting open APs that never seem to go away.
- kergonath 4y ago
  > It came with the place they're living in. Someone else made that decision. It is irrelevant anyway. Buying something with the intent of modding it is not that unreasonable.
- moolcool 4y ago
  > Like many other 'smart' appliances, it creates it's own AP so allow you to set it up. So anyone within range could attach it to their network, and then do whatever they like with it. Considering the security risk of smart devices generally working like this, I feel like the industry ought to standardize on something more sensible. Maybe some kind of NFC pairing?
  - yrro 4y ago
    It's called WPS. God knows why manufacturers prefer to do something as iduotic as crearing their own WiFi access point rather than using it!
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      WPS is severely broken and insecure. And the QR/NFC thing they added to replace it will require quite new devices.
      - yrro 4y ago
        WPS PIN method is severely broken and insecure, absolutely typical of most stuff put out by the Wi-Fi Alliance. As far as I know, WPS push button method is fine. I haven't ever needed or wanted to try to use the NFC method, I would disable it on any equipment I installed until I had a need for it. And even then I would do some research to see how badly the Wi-Fi Alliance fucked it up before making a judgement about whether I would feel comfortable enabling it.
    - Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
      Depending on the router manufacturer you may not be able to disable WPS pin and keep WPS push button (this is the case of the router that was supplied by my ISP as it comes with a rather dumbed down UI, not sure if I could disable it via editing a settings backup file and applying that back to the router as I use my own equipment, but most consumers will just use the router issued to them from their ISP). WPS enter pin has a max number of possibilities of 11k pins (it checks the pin in 2 half’s and the last digit is a check digit, so 10k possibilities for the first half and 999 possibilities for the 2nd half), and some routers don’t rate limit the connection requests. Some router manufacturers fixed the issue by removing WPS pin, others “fixed” it by rate limiting WPS pin connection attempts, but that will just delay the attack. So we are left with WPS Push button (if that’s available because as stated above, consumer routers may only allow disabling WPS completely rather than just disable WPS pin). But thats a bit of a pain for items like Shellys that are designed to be put behind fixtures. But yeah, in the case of a fridge and most other consumer grade equipment putting a push button somewhere for WPS Push Button should be easy to factor in.
ant6n 4y ago
> 2) … there is still a lot of fridges without WiFi and "smart" features out there, … for now. That’s not true anymore for example for TVs.
- cgrealy 4y ago
  Yeah, but Wi-Fi for a tv makes sense. It’s borderline mandatory for the way people consume content these days. Wi-Fi for fridges is available, but no one seems that bothered by it.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
The appliances came with the property.
BLKNSLVR 4y ago
Were I making the purchasing decision, wifi wouldn't factor in. If the fridge that turns out to be the best option happened to have wifi, then I'd trust myself to work out how to jail it, whether hardware "off"-ing it as per this guy, or blackholing it's connection, or just not connecting it at all (with the knowledge that some devices are rumoured to connect to any accessible open wifi).
- kergonath 4y ago
  > with the knowledge that some devices are rumoured to connect to any accessible open wifi It is also quite possible that these come with cellular connectivity in the future as well…
  - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    Is it legal to use a jammer on appliances that you've purchased? Just need to know where one can purchase said cellular jammer...
    - tpxl 4y ago
      It's generally going to be easier to disable the signal circuits on the appliances than to jam them. Either wrap them in foil, disconnect the circuits, or wait for some brave soul to figure out what to break for it to stop working. That being said, jamming is relatively easy, just saturate the channel you want to jam with noise. That will also probably kill your cellular connection though.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      YMMV, but around here jammers are illegal, full stop. I suppose one could put their appliances in a faraday cage or wrap them in tin foil…
prmoustache 4y ago
2) Author mentionned it came with the place.
nixass 4y ago
>>2. surely the fact that it has WiFi was known at purchase time? It says right there in the article: these appliances came with the new place so i’ll be stuck with these i imagine for some time

VoidWhisperer 4y ago

It should be legally required for these products to allow for people to turn 'smart' features off if they want to. Unfortunately, it probably won't be any time soon.

deepstack 4y ago
As consumers, we ought to demand that. I like IoT, however if this is how the manufacturers gonna play it, I would rather have old stove and fridges with no internet access. Let's vote with our money.
Doches 4y ago
I'd rather flip this solution on its head: why are our markets for consumer goods /so broken/ that there's no headroom for a startup making quality, 'not-smart' appliances to break in? Consumer home appliances feel like they ought to be a textbook case of innovator's dilemma, with incumbents moving up and to the right in complexity and opening up space at the bottom for new manufacturers. And yet...
- RL_Quine 4y ago
  The smart features of a TV subsidize its price. A "non smart" device manufacturer has to sell at a dramatically non competitive price because they aren't selling user data or flooding advertising into the content shown. Sitting on a shelf, who would buy a TV with less features for double or three times the price?
  - Doches 4y ago
    For TVs, absolutely, that's a hard value proposition to beat. But you can't tell me that there's anything like as much profit delta between 'dumb' and smart...refrigerators.
    - RL_Quine 4y ago
      There's a hot tub brand who include LTE radios in their hot tubs to ensure that they always have an analytics channel irrespective of what the user configures. Why on earth? It means they can target advertising for consumables and services. Same goes for fridges which need replacement filters, fresheners, whatever, you've just got to dupe the user into giving you internet connectivity, or accept the cost of putting a cellphone radio in your product.

swiper_lux 4y ago

Can't you just block it at your router?

askvictor 4y ago
Or don't enter your wifi credentials to start with?
- runnerup 4y ago
  Might work on this model but more and more appliances refuse to work at all until they’re connected to WiFi. Additionally, “Amazon Sidewalk” allows appliances to connect to your neighbors Wi-Fi automatically if your own isn’t working for it.
  - VoidWhisperer 4y ago
    According to Samsung's site, assuming this is the same model of fridge (Family Hub Refrigerator?), it is technically possible to skip the WiFi setup, but some people are pointing out there are rumors that it will try to connect to open wifi to still phone home to samsung.
iamphilrae 4y ago
Changing router means you have to re-block. Plus nothing better (more reassuring) than an actual air-gap from the internet.
VoidWhisperer 4y ago
Below the main post: "since this got boosted if anyone happens to know about service manuals for appliances, lmk. i’m textin a buddy about this and now we just wanna kill it instead my backup plan (forever dhcp lease + block IP from pf.conf). even the manuals i can find online from samsung don’t mention the smart features, it seems to be more of a “don’t burn down your house idiot” thing " It seems their plan was to block it at a network level if they couldn't do this.
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lqet 4y ago

This is basically why I paid 100 EUR to have the 23 years old cheap Whirlpool stove that came with our apartment fixed. It has 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of them, the corresponding plate gets hot. Simplicity lasts longer.

walrus01 4y ago
When I was maybe 20 years old and naive as hell, I thought it was funny that the older neighbors were really enthusiastic about their older fully analog, non-computerized Toyota Land Cruiser. They did all their own repairs on it. Now I understand.
paskozdilar 4y ago
> It has 4 plates and 4 turning knobs, and when I turn one of them, the corresponding plate gets hot. The smartest stove of them all - does one thing and does it well.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Opposite is true for single use kitchen gadgets: https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/12/alton-brown-is-right-to-scorn-single-use-kitchen-gadgets-and-the-people-who-buy-them.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/12/alton-brown-is-righ...
  - dendriti 4y ago
    Single-use gadgets can be blessings for the disabled and differently abled. The author of this article is sneering at the disabled for having different tool needs than herself. My 80-something grandmother uses a garlic press and several sizes of vegetable holders for slicing veggies. I guess she's just so uncool.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      Most of these single use things are a product of Teleshopping and other terrible marketing schemes.

numlock86 4y ago

Why so much trouble to "disable" WiFi instead of simply not using it?

StreamBright 4y ago
Because of security. You do not know how exploitable the setup is. There were instances when these appliances connected to open Wifis and called home. Imagine same but attacker doing a drive by with open Wifi.
- VoidWhisperer 4y ago
  If it will try to connect to any open wifi, I can definitely see why'd you want to disable the wifi at a hardware level, since at that either you let it connect to the internet in its own, insecure way, or use your secured wifi network - in both cases it'll phone home.
- nagonago 4y ago
  What would a hacker possibly have to gain stealing data from smart fridges? Blackmail you with evidence that you don't buy free-range eggs?
  - StreamBright 4y ago
    Well there are few options. I am not a black hat and my imagination is not as vivid but I think if somebody makes my fridge turn off is bad enough. More sophisticated attackers might use it as a vector to get in to your home network. Not sure.
  - VoidWhisperer 4y ago
    All it takes is the fridge having one vulnerability that is exploitable by it connecting to the network and suddenly your fridge is part of a botnet..
  - kergonath 4y ago
    It’s another possible vector to infiltrate other devices on the network. Like smart bulbs, smart switches, security cameras, smart scales, and what have you. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario in which the fridge is the weakest link. A smart fridge can also be botnetisied like any of these.

nagonago 4y ago

Couldn't you just never connect it to your router? Why bother disabling it? Security risk?

lini 4y ago
If you don't some of your neighbors might. I installed an app to control my AC remotely and when i pressed the button to add all units in range it automatically added one more than there were in my apartment. I had complete control over the AC unit of some unsuspecting neighbour - I could see its status and control everything from my phone anywhere in the world. I suspect it's not that bad for fridges, but you still might be able to do some harm there as well.
- kolinko 4y ago
  Could be worse - I live in an apartament complex and everyone’s home control is on it’s own network but with the same password. We cannot change it - even as apartament owners. So, if a neighbors party gets too loud you can go an aggressive way and just turn off their lights and lower curtains… or go passive aggressive way and bring their AC waay down so they begin to suffer but may not realise why :D The whole system runs on some sort of an outdated linux servers, so one day I plan to hack my own home’s access network to get a root finally.

soared 4y ago

Completely unrelated, but I’ve heard of mastodon a lot but never used it. Now I get it though - the UI is really nice and reminiscent of the internet I used to know. I thought I opened an app somehow on accident… snappy ui, no ads, perfectly scaled to my device’s screen, etc.

rsolva 4y ago
Another benefit to the Fediverse is that many clients exists to the same backend, and they all have access to the same API / features. No "official" or "third-party" clients or apps, which has proven to encourage developers to make apps for many platforms (JS, android, iOS, TUIs, GNOME, KDE, etc)
jeroenhd 4y ago
I think this is just a normal PWA,though. In fact, I think this is a rather website-like PWA at that, with the obvious links at the top. This is the system Google intends PWAs to be, just quick, snappy, easily accessible websites that behave like they belong on your device. Sadly, most "apps" seem to copy the bloated, heavy, mostly JS-based approach we find in native apps, which is besides the point. Take the Twitter web-app, for example, that's a bloated mess that needs some serious optimisation. The alternative front-end, Nitter.net, does a lot better in almost every aspect. It's fast, accessible, and does just about everything except writing tweets and putting together a wall of followed accounts for you. I like mastodon but I still prefer a native app over the web UI because it just feels that little bit too "web" for me. The main advantage obviously isn't the UI but the decentralized nature of the platform; a clean UI just helps them be a better alternative for the closed ecosystem of traditional social media.
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neilv 4y ago

Two of my favorites: https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/programmers_know_the_risks_involved/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/pro...

nextlevelwizard 4y ago

Controversially I would like to have fridge and stove that could send me telemetry over Wi-Fi. I currently have RuuviTag in my fridge to monitor temperature and moisture, but I can't put one in my oven for obvious reasons (and it couldn't monitor stove anyway). Obviously neither should have any actual controls over Wi-Fi, but getting a notification about open fridge door, being able to check if stove or oven is on while away from home, or getting report when something (is about to) breaks would be neat.

Tepix 4y ago
> could send me telemetry over Wi-Fi Well, this isn't it. Only the corporations receive your data.

joris9000 4y ago

Rather than disconnecting these type of appliances completely I’d rather disconnect them from the cloud and connect locally, for example using Home Assistant. I have captured an OTA update for my Miele appliance but so far haven’t gotten around to poking around. Has anyone tried something similar?

dmje 4y ago

You'd just buy a dumb fridge in the first place, no? I mean I know with TV it's nearly impossible to buy dumb now but with fridges it's (at least in the UK) still "default is dumb"...

mattbaker 4y ago
The appliances came with the apartment/house the author is in, they didn’t choose to buy them.

eterevsky 4y ago

I'm disappointed that all these smart home appliances connect exclusively via WiFi. None of them connect via Ethernet even though they are stationary and often connecting a cable to them could be easy. The WiFi connection is usually unreliable, supports only 2.4 GHz and requires multiple steps to establish.

disillusioned 4y ago
I mean, who the hell has a Cat-5e drop behind their fridge, though? I imagine a product manager took exactly 100ms to calculate that the answer to that question is "functionally no one" and so there went the $X ethernet connector from the build, for patently obvious reasons. Hell, I'd love to know Sonos's ethernet adoption rate, since they certainly have that data. I'd bet it's fairly high since Sonos is a bit up-market and sometimes professionally installed, or installed by enthusiasts, but I'm willing to guess it's < 5%, and realistically, < 1%, even if we only obviously limit the sample size to "Sonos devices that are eth capable."
- eterevsky 4y ago
  Just last year I moved to a new home and was installing ethernet around the house. I could've easily made an extra port or two in the kitchen. I generally like receiving a notification when the dishwasher is finished with the dishes, but with the current WiFi setup it's always broken and I don't have the energy to fix it. So I would've used it if it were working over Ethernet and I'm not using it now when it can only work over WiFi. Out of home automation devices Philips Hue works only over Ethernet, though there you have the advantage that you can place the hub anywhere you like.
- passivate 4y ago
  You can say that about anything though. Most people aren't writing code or building binaries, so you might as well take the ability of the end user to write code or run any unsigned unauthorized executables on their PCs. Also most people aren't running old ass executables, so screw backwards compatibility too. I'm sure it will make operating systems a lot less complex if you do down that path, but most people here would revolt if that was done by any OS vendor.

wardedVibe 4y ago

Cory Doctorow has a story on IoT devices being used to control the behavior of poor people https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

namibj 4y ago
Thanks, awesome read!

carlsborg 4y ago

What happens if you change the WiFi password?

8fingerlouie 4y ago

I keep most IoT things on a tight leash. I have a couple of IoT VLANs that devices gets sorted into by my level of percieved trust. Things like AppleTV and Sonos goes into the trusted one, things like Printers, various chinese IoT like Aquara sensors, Eufy cameras and more are put into the untrusted one. Trusted devices have static DHCP assigned IPs, as well as printers (for AirPrint and mDNS) Everything in the untrusted VLAN is blocked by MAC address in the firewall in the outbound direction. I keep a (surprisingly small) spreadsheet of all my firewall rules, so migrating to a new firewall is a matter of spending 30 minutes setting up the 50 or so lines from the spreadsheet, of which most are rules for allowing inter VLAN traffic, i.e. allow AirPlay reverse connections from AirPlay capabale devices. I should add that i run Eufy cameras in Homekit mode, so they only need access to talk to a HomeKit bridge/hub (AppleTV/HomePod), and only need internet access for firmware updates.

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alex_duf 4y ago
Out of curiosity, how do you control that a device has access to its updates, but isn't able to "phone home"?
- 8fingerlouie 4y ago
  I don't update unless there's a security fix (haha), i have a problem, or a feature i need is released, at which point i simply disable the outbound firewall rule temporarily and "force" an update through whatever controlplane the device has (typically an app). For security fixes, i usually find out through other channels (here or reddit) about some new 0-day, and i will check for updates after that. Considering that the devices are not allowed on the internet, and on a very limited network, the risk of a random "drive by shooting" is rather low.
  - alex_duf 4y ago
    ha, that's sort of what I had in mind but I was wondering what magic trick was I missing. Thanks for the explanation!

thn-gap 4y ago

Has anyone worked on fighting back this kind of telemetry/spyware of essential consumer appliances? I'm thinking something similar to what https://adnauseam.io/ https://adnauseam.io/ does, but but amplified: 1. Someone reverse engineer what does the device send to which address. 2. Block the particular device to access internet (and make it easy for others too). 3. Constantly send bogus data to the manufacturer so the personal data they get overall loses value or is unusable. Make it easy for a lot of people to do it as well, or even just rent a bot farm. There's too many legit and good services that end up being turned down due to abuse and DDos, and they don't even bring anything good to the attackers. Why not using these techniques for something actually good to consumers privacy?

encrux 4y ago
Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data to the manufacturer? I'm all for being able to choose whether or not to disclose that data, but then we'll also have to accept different choices than ours. There's no point in sabotaging others.
- krageon 4y ago
  > Why would you want to go out of your way to send bogus data to the manufacturer? Because getting a ton of garbage will positively stimulate them to stop trusting this data. That helps everyone.
  - widjit 4y ago
    Though more likely no one will notice/care and they will just sell the bad data regardless
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      If someone's buying the data they will care sooner or later. After all, if they wanted bogus data, they can generate it themselves instead of buying it.

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kennu 4y ago

I love WiFi on my home appliances. Washing machine sends notifications when it's finished or when it's running out of detergent, air purifier notifies when it's time to change the filter, A/C lets me turn it on remotely when I feel too hot, etc. I don't really get people who opt out of these convenience features.

simongray 4y ago
I bought a Samsung TV, was pretty satisfied with it. One day it updated itself and now it has forced some kind of Samsung TV service onto itself that is very visibly promoted whenever I go to switch to a different hooked-up appliance. It annoys me to no end.
- wincy 4y ago
  I jailbroke my LG TV. So I have shell access but also have a decent smart TV, and I removed all the ads. Also have ad free Youtube. I like it a lot more now.
  - the_biot 4y ago
    You should write this up, sounds pretty interesting.
    - wincy 4y ago
      Hah I literally googled it and used this exploit in the browser. Someone else did the hard work for me. For the ads there’s some python scripts that aren’t working but it’s not super difficult to figure out. https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
  - slategruen 4y ago
    Is LG the only mainstream TV manufacturer which allows this?
  - casenjo 4y ago

tag2103 4y ago

You know these used to say ... and how you can too... back in the good old days.

mcv 4y ago

Why mess with the hardware? Can't you just not give it access to your wifi?

sound1 4y ago
I would like to know the pris and cons myself
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nivertech 4y ago

Problem: on the Internet nobody knows you're a fridge. Solution: physically disconnect WiFi.

walrus01 4y ago

Just wait until device manufacturers start integrating always-on LTE modems with their own SIM cards and billing so they can pull device analytics, sell you new advertising, and sell your usage patterns to 3rd parties whether or not you ever connect the things to your home wifi. At which point you'll have to disassemble the damned thing and physically rip out the LTE modem, possibly resulting in the device bricking itself when it can't phone home after a while. I bet if you're a device manufacturer right now and go to t-mobile enterprise sales and tell them you want 200MB of data per month per IMEI and you're going to have 50,000 units, you'll get a very attractive monthly price per unit. Mark my words, it'll be commonplace in another 8-10 years. https://me.me/i/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-wired-to-the-d19985a8762a4e5681ec19b52e632186 https://me.me/i/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-w... https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

btgeekboy 4y ago
We're already approaching that point. Most modern cars phone home, and my partner's CPAP machine also has a modem that reports usage info back home, including to their insurance provider.
- scarby2 4y ago
  The CPAP is extremely useful if used correctly (rather than just enforce compliance). It allows a clinician to monitor remotely for all sorts of issues and follow up with the patient. There are a whole bunch of issues that can occur that a patient may not be aware of because they are asleep. Generally I wish we'd all use some kind of sleep monitoring system or at least we started routine screening for sleep disorders
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    My CPAP just has an SD card which I can remove and bring to the therapist. The benefit of this is that I don't have to rely only on the therapist, I can also read the card myself with tools like OSCAR: https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/ https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/ I would really hate having one that reports via 4G to the therapist only.

perceptronas 4y ago

After articles [1] where expensive Samsung TV show ads I personally avoid anything Samsung. No reason to incentivize their anti-consumer behavior. [1] - https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-spent-3000-on-a-samsung-smart-tv-and-all-i-got-were-ads-and-unwanted-content/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/home-entertainment/i-s...

FargaColora 4y ago
Same. Samsung as a brand is dead to me. It is their right to update previously purchased TVs to show adverts. It is my right to consider their brand toxic swill.
- webinvest 4y ago
  What brands are you looking at now instead?

orbit7 4y ago

Open source Linux based smart appliances would be good. I don't dislike the idea of smart appliances, but if its mine I want full control over what it does.

dolmen 4y ago
However the manufcaturers prefer to avoid the risk of a user physically breaking the device from software and the manufacturer having to repair because of legal warantee.
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  Surely it would be trivial for the warranty to be void in those cases.
cgrealy 4y ago
What percentage of consumers want that? I’m guessing the market is close to zero.

kebman 4y ago

UI Hell: The place I'm renting has an IKEA / Whirlpool ceramic top stove. All digital. And I HATE it. You can't find the touch-buttons in the dark, say when you want to make coffee in the wee morn, so you're forced to turn on lights. When you finally find a button, it takes forever to turn it to max. You have to fiddle around to turn it back down again, first click the button for the corresponding plate you want, then click a separate button to actually power it down. Again, it takes forever. It's also impossible to train tactile memory for it, becuase the buttons are too close and too hard to discern on the dark-on-dark top, so if you try doing it blind, you'll just end up fiddling forever to find the damn thing. If you spill something over the touch area, it'll start beeping and complaining before it turns itself off. Meanwhile the corresponding pot might have already boiled over, and you can't react in time, because the touch panel is covered in boiling liquid. Also, honestly, I think it's actually harder to keep the ceramic top clean than a regular top. Reason: It smudges real easy, and you're never sure how much pressure or abrasives you can use without making scratches. On the old tops, you just didn't have to worry. It could withstand a sledgehammer amount of abuse before scratching or chipping. And don't even get me started on the microwave installed here... I brought my own two-knob micro despite there already being one installed here. That should give you a clue.

bajsejohannes 4y ago
It's telling that no professional stoves have capacitive buttons.
- maccard 4y ago
  Just because something isnt used by professionals doesn't make it unsuitable for domestic use. I don't have a roll cage in my car, for example. That said capacitive touch has no place in the kitchen.
  - chrlac 4y ago
    I'm not sure the example you provide really applies to the situation. Roll cages are mandatory in race cars, so effectively the contrary to "isn't used by professionals" . Also, they can be used in normal road cars. Granted, they're inconvenient but still provide added safety. An example that comes to mind is Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT). Most types of motorsports avoid CVTs for reasons of weight, unreliability and decreased repairability. However, for normal road cars, CVTs are very widespread and they do the job just fine (until they don't, but that's another story!)

oliwarner 4y ago

Why do you need to disassemble and unplug a pin header when you could just not tell it your AP password?

gernb 4y ago

But you still gave them money for a fridge with WiFi signaling to them you want more of the same.

na85 4y ago

>i fucking hate living in the future This pretty much sums up my daily outlook on life.

chippytea 4y ago

I have done the same on my smart tv. I am worried that if everyone starts doing this they will start integrating the wifi card into the motherboard.

kebman 4y ago

Do you make appliances? Want to get rich? Here's your next tag line: "We Make Dumb Appliances."

verisimi 4y ago

No one wants this technology. So why are we getting it anyway? We are getting it because it is essential to the smart cities agenda. It is planned that everything be micromanaged by a technocratic elite. Think of China's social credit score on steroids. Have you used up your allocation of credits? Your fridge/heating/etc can be switched off. Have you been a bad citizen, posting dissenting comments online? Then you can't travel, will have your bank account frozen/constrained. A digital pass and smart technology everywhere are required. Then technocrats can have fine-grained control of everything. This will be done in the name of the environment - in the name of 'saving the earth' most of us will choose digital enslavement and will even force it on others. ^ That's the plan in a nutshell - which is aimed to be in place for 2030. https://www.technocracy.news/ https://www.technocracy.news/

chimen 4y ago

I love people complaining about stuff that they did not pay for. That thread is full of it. You can just buy a fridge without those options you know? A dumb fridge, dumb whatever - they are out there.

virtual_void 4y ago
Yes, whilst you still can. Good luck finding a high quality dumb tv these days.

867-5309 4y ago

>i fucking hate living in the future *buys a wifi-enabled fridge* ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

als0 4y ago
He didn’t buy it, it was there when he moved in. If you’re renting then you can’t afford to keep replacing fridges.
- 867-5309 4y ago
  must admit I didn't read past the main tweet!
  - 867-5309 4y ago
    >If you’re renting then you can’t afford to keep replacing fridges. I'm sure you could if you were renting in e.g. Malibu, LA for >$100,000/wk

witx 4y ago

This is something that stresses me a lot. I care about fighting against these non-features but most people around don't care and have the mentality of "I have nothing to hide" I've lost count the amount of times I thought about "I should just do an open-source version of <some home appliance I need and is full of spy/crapware>"

kkfx 4y ago

Mh, so far there are in the market "not-smart fridges and freezers", AFAIK no law so far impose buying a connected one so... If someone sell crap I see not much reasons to buy...

henvic 4y ago

My Samsung washing machine has Wi-Fi. It's quite useful to know when laundry is ready... but it also allows me to say what I'm laundering, and it'll configure the machine for me. However, it doesn't allow me to turn it on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I imagine that forcing me to be physically near it and press a button to turn it on is a safety mechanism, but it sucks. Especially because it isn't clear whether this is something that can be configured or by design. I've tried everything to change this, but failed to find a way to remotely power it (I'd rather always use my smartphone to configure & turn it on).

GekkePrutser 4y ago

I added WiFi to my fridge and it's pretty great. It will tell me when the door is left ajar or when the temperature goes too high or low in either the fridge or freezer compartment. However I made it myself with an ESP8266 and some Dallas sensors. So it only works for me. Not for anyone else.

stonewareslord 4y ago
> made it myself with an ESP8266 Do you have a recommendation on how to start an ESP8266 project? Which board/power supply/??? Did you buy to do this for example
- eulers_secret 4y ago
  Consider checking out https://esphome.io/ https://esphome.io/ I personally buy whatever esp32 is on Amazon and use whatever usb power bricks I have laying around.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    In fact this is exactly what I used!
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  I use the WeMos D1 Mini. It's a small board with fewer pins than a NodeMCU or Lolin D32 board but more than sufficient for stuff like this. The ESP32 is more powerful but to be honest for a simple bunch of wifi sensors it's overkill. Though one thing that is nice is that the ESP32 has a dual-core CPU meaning the WiFi can run on the second core. It's more responsive as a result but again, for this kind of stuff it doesn't really matter. You can find WeMos (or knockoffs which work fine) for 2$ everywhere. The ESP32 also has bluetooth which the 8266 doesn't. But WiFi and BT can't be used at the same time, you can turn them both on but they have to share the 'airtime' meaning more airtime for BT is more packet loss for wifi. If I need both I will usually just use 2 for this reason :) For programming I used https://ESPHome.io https://ESPHome.io which is perfect for Home Assistant and you can program it right from the Home Assistant interface, just by declaring a few variables. I even have a $2 OLED display hooked up to it (SSD1306 1-color typical aliexpress thingy), works perfectly. It's highly recommended, let me know if you have more questions. And yeah like the other person said, power supply for these boards is irrelevant, any USB supply will do. They're not fussy because they don't use a lot of power unlike a pi.

lpointal 4y ago

Can't you just disconnect the antenna ?

thiht 4y ago

Why the hell would you even buy a fridge that has WiFi?

deltaonefour 4y ago

or just don't give it the password. Much simpler.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

Are smart fridges even that common? I bought all new appliances last year, and none of them were smart. I don't even remember seeing any smart ones at the shop. Granted, this was an appliance store in a town of about 8000 people... but it seems to me they're more gimmicks for people with too much money than a part of most peoples every day life.

slothtrop 4y ago
Considering that every tv available through most distributors is now a smart-tv, and the general proliferation of IoT, I'd see it becoming entirely commonplace unless consumers have an alternative among the competition.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  huh. I stopped using TVs years ago, so never made the transition to a smart one.

monkeynotes 4y ago

Can't you more simply not give the fridge your wifi password? Just keep it off of a network, seems much easier than opening it up and voiding a warranty.

alamortsubite 4y ago
5g and embedded modems will make it so much easier for consumers to get their new devices up and running!

btbuildem 4y ago

I feel like our best bet is "Right to Repair" legislation. Claw back ownership to mean real ownership, not veiled rental. RTR should include access to the software running these products, this way people could modify things, brick their appliances if they really want to, turn off "call home" features, etc.

JoeDaDude 4y ago

Looks like he just unplugged the WiFi modem/module. But the software that looks for a WiFi connection is still thee and operating, which is no big deal on a fridge, but on a TV it really extends the startup time as the TV won't be fully on until its has searched for WiFi connections, even if it fails to find one.

nemo44x 4y ago

Once everything in the home is connected, governments can pass laws that essentially force appliance manufactures to limit use of appliances. In the name of climate change or w/e. Everyone is limited to 1 dishwasher session during drought season. Fridges run a few degrees warmer during heat waves to conserve energy. Or it gets factored into your personal and family ESG score which can be used to discriminate. Are you doing your part, comrade?

Gunnerhead 4y ago
This is terrifying.
jonnycomputer 4y ago
This seems extremely unlikely to me.
lupire 4y ago
Much easier to just limit total electricity or water usage, at the meter. "Comrade", if you source your own water and don't rely on "communism when it's convenient for me", water limits aren't a problem.
ryandrake 4y ago
> Are you doing your part, comrade? Your dig at communism doesn't make sense: This dystopia you describe is being actively built by capitalist companies operating within a market economy and encouraged by democratically elected governments.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  The commies never gave up. They marched through the institutions and created de facto commissars within the corporate structure which are generally a part of HR. The commissars are called DEI and ESG now.
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auton1 4y ago

I use AdGuard DNS on my Samsung ‘smartTV’ to get rid of the ads. Drives me nuts that we’re forced to have ads on devices we own.

jimmaswell 4y ago

This stuff makes me roll my eyes. The wifi fridge isn't going to hurt you. Personally I think it sounds cool to have your Google calendar on your fridge.

eric_cc 4y ago
> The wifi fridge isn't going to hurt you. Do you have a source? Proof that it is not a security concern?
LoveMortuus 4y ago
I'd like one that would have cameras inside and would know what's inside of it, when they expire and even have an option to order the same products if they're starting to go low! Without me having to do any extra work like scanning each product or entering any data!
- joshvm 4y ago
  This was the subject of a Silicon Valley skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXu4_K1tMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXu4_K1tMQ This approach is used commercially. Our office is in a co-working space and we have a smart fridge in the kitchen. I should point out we also have a normal shared fridge, but this is like a fancy vending machine. You unlock with an app, take what you want and all the items have an RFID tag, so the system knows what you took and charges you. I assume the workspace managers also get stock alerts. The other end of this is hotel minibars which detect what you take, I guess also using RFID. I know Marriott use these (Berlin for example) to stop people swapping out wine for water or juice. Fun fact, this happened to a friend of mine in managed isolation. The hotel had taken all the booze from the rooms, since alcohol was rationed. You had to order it from room service and they'd leave it outside your door. They swapped it for free, but they weren't surprised. It seems like it happened a lot, but being told at check-in that you can't touch the fridge without risking it charging you seems like penny pinching when you're charging 150+ EUR per night.
  - LoveMortuus 4y ago

lupire 4y ago

swaggboi@eatthrrich.club has a $1500+ fridge to store the the rich leftovers. An autocannibal?

kristianpaul 4y ago

I never connected my TV to wifi

cvccvroomvroom 4y ago

My mom's Samsung fridge tells me whenever it opens and closes. I had to disable notifications. It implies collection of analytics from inside peoples' homes when attached to WiFi.

eclipticplane 4y ago

Can California or New York pass a 'no smart device without an off switch' law so the rest of us in other states can buy CA/NY appliances?

userbinator 4y ago

Every time I read something like this I couldn't feel happier with my late 30s Frigidaire I reinsulated and restored. There's actually a thriving market for restoring and repairing old dumb appliances, at least in the US, although it's relatively underground.

code_runner 4y ago
Are there any good resources online you can share? Sounds interesting.

firefoxd 4y ago

Ah, that reminds me of my good old Westinghouse Radiohub [1]. When the internet goes away, you probably won't be able to freeze stuff no more. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759

tomkwong 4y ago

There’s no privacy agreement to sign when setting up the fridge? I had to click on the Agree button several times when I started with my LG TV!

ricardojoaoreis 4y ago

I did something similar to my LG TV at the expense of losing the motion sensor of the remote… Worth it in my opinion

Friedduck 4y ago

Why would you connect a smart appliance to begin with? It doesn’t have the credentials unless you provide them?