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Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

584 points by webmaven 5y ago

vincentmarle 5y ago
The concept of an online high school may sound terrible, but sooner or later it’s bound to happen: quality education will keep consolidating until there’s one super school left. Outlier is doing the same thing but on the college level: why deal with a mediocre local math teacher if you can get taught by the best?
- azinman2 5y ago
  Because there’s more to high school than just classes. It’s important to learn how to deal with people as well. A purely virtual high school experience sounds extremely lonely and thin for the soul.
  - frontman1988 5y ago
    Social learning can happen outside school in sports or other hobby related activities. High school is actually quite a weird place to learn social skills.
    - DeWilde 5y ago
      Yes, but the 5-6 hours you spend within a school alongside 3-4 hours you can spend on sports and hobbies probably out-competes just sports and hobbies.
    - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
      Not every kid is going to be a part of sports and hobbies clubs. A lot of us never had any friends outside of school. We need some kind of institution to facilitate social interactions between children. Till date that has been the function of schools. Moving away from this model, without proper deliberation, is sure to cause problems afterwards. And then we’ll all look back and ask why the world’s feeling more isolated than ever.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    And we all know the best way to learn about how to deal with people is putting them in a group of incompatible people in a high-stress, prison-like environment. What could possibly go wrong? As long as high schools are facilities that push some people to extreme actions I think the 'social education' you would get there is too expensive for society as a whole.
    - deleted 5y ago
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    - andrewinardeer 5y ago
      I find that your first paragraph is very negative and has an insular posture. Dealing and managing with other people who are incompatible with your ethics and morality is an important skill to learn. Not only does it help you learn asseriveness and diplomacy it also allows one to gain an insight into your own personal bias and teaches you how to respond and not react. A lot of grown, so called 'adults' still need to learn this skill set from my observations in day to day life.
      - IshKebab 5y ago
        Yeah I definitely remember everyone learning to be diplomatic in high school. /s
      - DocTomoe 5y ago
        I love how you bring up diplomacy. It brings up all kinds of associations, good old Clausewitz not being the least of them when you consider what else happens at schools.
      - password54321 5y ago
        In a perfect world that's what school teaches you. What gets you through high school in a lot of social circumstances is nothing close to any sort of diplomatic behaviour or assertiveness. The louder more aggressive person usually came out on top. Maybe a lot of people here went to some private school where somehow logic, analytical ability and being polite is what got you through but that certainly doesn't describe where I went and can't imagine a public school being this way.
  - donthellbanme 5y ago
    The minute I found out I could work, and go to a Communty College, instead of going to high school I thought I won the lottery. Long story short my high school allowed gave credit for working, and going to a Communty College. Once I got to the CC it was relief. My classmates were a lot older, but that was great. Their was no BS. I made great friends. I didn't like high school much. I was respected because I was a good athlete, but hated high school. I also got a few brownie points because I survived a fight with the ultimate school bully. I went to the same school that our CA governor went to. He was ahead of me, but only graduated because his parents helped him out along the way. I could go on, but don't have the energy tonight. He is very open about his learning difficulties. O.k. so back to my high school memories. My acne was so bad, I just wanted to hide. My hormones were crazy. I remember having to get to the school at 7:00 for no reason other than listening to some disenfranchised tenure teacher rattle on about their gripes in life. The only thing I liked about high school was a kind biology teacher, and looking at those cheer leaders. Even at the time, I thought those four years in high school could have been condensed to two year if properly administrated. If I had a kid, and they hated high school like myself, I would walk them into a CC admissions office.
    - gscott 5y ago
      So many high schools are dysfuntional I was able to get my son into Cc for the last two years of high school. Made a huge difference in his life.
  - magpi3 5y ago
    I hear this argument a lot, but lets's ask the question: are high schools the best way to learn to "deal with people?" How much trauma have high schools inspired and can we do better now that we have other options?
    - azinman2 5y ago
      No one is shitty like children are. It’s part of growing up and a great source of bad interactions that teach us about the world and ourselves. If the only thing you do in life is protect yourself into a perfect atmosphere, the less you are prepared for the real world which is unpredictable and full of trauma.
      - magpi3 5y ago
        Is this opinion just Stockholm syndrome since we were all forced to go through it? What other models do we have to compare it to? I would argue that segregating children by age for schooling purposes is a relatively modern idea that probably runs counter to tens if not hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
  - nvarsj 5y ago
    Learning social skills in high school is more like learning how to survive in a prison yard - it couldn't be more far removed from adult social skills. I'd say functional, healthy high schools are in the tiny minority, and generally are private and small.
  - txsoftwaredev 5y ago
    Do you believe that kids that do online learning never leave their home or have any friends? That's a pretty ignorant view. There are tons of opportunities for kids to have positive social interactions with peers as well as younger and older children, as well as adults. Being forced to interact with a handful of kids around their age in a public school is not a great way to socializing. My kids are all homeschooled, including parent taught as well as online education, and have friends of different ages with caring parents that are all very involved. They have outside activities including, music, PE, play time with friends at the park, zoo trips, museums etc.
- irjustin 5y ago
  > one super school left I don't believe so there is huge problems with hybrid/offline learning at scale with distractions, social interactions etc that cannot be fundamentally solved by Khan Academy. But having a 'master teacher' is something I definitely welcome because my education, like so many others, varied year to year, on say math, because of educator quality. Khan's 'reverse school' is something I wish I could have experienced growing up as I think it would personally have worked for me.
- csande17 5y ago
  Online high schools are already a thing; Connections Academy is the largest where I live. I took a few classes there, and from what I remember, the primary mode of instruction was a janky early-2000s webapp that presented excerpts and quiz questions from a textbook. There were teachers and lectures, but a lot of kids didn't show up to those, and class sizes were relatively small. (I was frequently the only kid who dialed in to the conference call for my French conversation class, so I got a lot of one-on-one time with the teacher.) Social events like clubs were primarily handled through web forums that I didn't spend much time in because I wasn't a full-time student at the school. The marketing copy here makes it sound like Khan World School is fundamentally the same model, but hopefully Khan Academy's online textbooks are a little less janky.
- frontman1988 5y ago
  This is indeed the future of education. It is something the governments should do now in countries with substandard educators. A few superstar rockstar teachers can replace millions of average teachers. The offline physical teacher will be there to merely solve doubts(and ensure kids are actually watching stuff) while the online teacher streams live to millions of students. The biggest challenge will be to make the experience so immersive that kids can learn online. VR might be able to help in this regard.
  - maaanu 5y ago
    If you think that your description is teaching, you never had a teacher or only very lousy ones.
- dodyg 5y ago
  > quality education will keep consolidating until there’s one super school left. Right, we are all graduated from Harvard here.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > why deal with a mediocre local math teacher if you can get taught by the best? Because…you actually can’t. Static media (like books and non-interactive lectures) scales easily, but that’s not teaching (even if, especially in large lower-division courses, that’s what university faculty essentially does.) Human interactivity, which is what teaching fundamentally is, doesn’t scale, which is why those large lecture classes typically also have smaller TA-led “discussion sections” or sonething similar. And, in many cases, as well as not scaling, it works a lot better in person than remotely.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    To be fair, there are "interactive" teaching methods that scale very well. In old-time schools, it was common for a single teacher to teach a large number of students, who would rote learn a teacher-prepared "lesson" and chant it back word-for-word when prompted. Students would similarly be introduced to practice in e.g. grammar or math, simply by hearing problem questions from the teacher and shouting back the right answers. Thus they were prepared for anything that might turn up on a later test. This education system could be carried forward to quite advanced levels, equivalent to a modern high school education or even to some parts of community college. Abraham Lincoln was taught in this way, and like many other students he had a habit of rehearsing his material out loud while going to school and back. It was not ineffective, though individual tutoring would've been the gold standard even back then.
    - deleted 5y ago
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    - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
      > To be fair, there are "interactive" teaching methods that scale very well. In old-time schools, it was common for a single teacher to teach a large number of students, who would rote learn a teacher-prepared "lesson" and chant it back word-for-word when prompted. > […] > It was not ineffective, though individual tutoring would've been the gold standard even back then. Then it doesn’t scale very well.
  - 5y ago
- Foobar8568 5y ago
  That's already the case today if you are not in a very good sector, at least in France and Switzerland.
- Mvandenbergh 5y ago
  As others have said, the fundamental challenge is that teaching, as usually defined, doesn't scale like that and that turning it into a non-interactive process removes much of what makes it more effective than just giving out a textbook. Part of the problem is that many people take undergraduate lectures as a reference point and then think "well, there's no reason this couldn't be recorded, have interactive quizzes added, and then be better than physically attending a lecture of 200 people". That isn't wrong per se but mega lectures are barely teaching as it is and we should not be seeking to replicate them! I know people bang on about the (much misunderstood) 2 sigma problem but I'm going to do it as well. Regardless of the exact result, we know a few things: First, we know that intensive 1:1 tutoring moves the mean performance up by two standard deviations. Second, we know from other research that there is a correlation between class size and performance. That is obviously linked in that as classes get smaller, teaching styles can get progressively closer to 1:1 tuition. A class with ten people in it has room for a substantial amount of brief 1:1 interventions, especially if there are no behavioural problems in the group (so the teacher is not diverting massive amounts of time to classroom management) whereas a class of 30 makes that much more difficult. Conclusion from that, plus the fact that undergraduate classes are often taught by research experts with no teaching nor mentoring in pedagogic technique, is that the undergrad chalk-on-board lecture with 200 students is at the far end of effective use of time from 1:1 tuition. So if tuition is the most "taught" of the learning styles, a large lecture is all the way over on the opposite end with "just read a textbook". In fact, universities know this which is why they supplement lectures with grad-student led problem solving / discussion sessions, seminar groups, and small group tutorials. Some universities, for some subjects, use only small group tutorials (e.g. Oxford colleges for many humanities subjects) and lectures if they exist are very much optional. Most universities do not have the resources to do very much of this except for more advanced subjects but this has nothing to do with these techniques only being appropriate for such subjects - small group classes are also the most effective way of teaching Intro Calculus or Introduction to the Novel. Arguably they might be even more important in that context. So the modern formulation of the two sigma problem to me is as follows: given that we can currently duplicate the (very bad) mega lecture format using technology, how much of the performance from actual teaching (the purest form of which is 1:1 tuition) can be captured using something less resource intensive?
- vampiretooth1 5y ago
  Turning standard education into something scalable is going to be very interesting. We're already seeing this with MOOC and all, but when it's a part of a national network that students can plug into - I'm excited about the potential here. I like the super school idea, gives me the impression of a merit-based winner-take-all system
2Gkashmiri 5y ago
so this is specifically for US students only? also, is this like a permanent school? like you can be registered in khan world high school and not be enrolled in any "physical" school? do you drop out of your previous/current school? what about if you want to join this school as well as your existing school?
- petesergeant 5y ago
  On the landing page: "Students from around the world"
  - Arnavion 5y ago
    They may accept students from around the world, but whether it counts as a high school for the purpose of continuing on to higher education is country-specific, which (I assume) is why 2Gkashmiri asked what they did. Also, based on the About Us page, the requirements for submitting an application are quite US-centric ("Student must be proficient in Algebra 1", etc). I did not try to fill out an actual application to see if they accept other countries' alternatives (I assume they do).
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      > Tuition for all students does include the opportunity to take two university courses per semester and earn college credit. Even the most irritatingly bureaucracy obsessed box ticking country, i.e. Germany, would accept a transcript with two college courses per semester as a university preparatory high school.
      - searchableguy 5y ago
        Many countries do not accept online education as a valid form of education. India doesn't unless the institution is approved by the UGC or act of Parliament. Same story in China. American credits are also treated very differently outside.
      - watwut 5y ago
aaws11 5y ago
the accessibility widget in the site is probably the sweetest thing I've ever seen on the internet.
- anandchowdhary 5y ago
  Actually -- these are not good for accessibility [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. These companies have raised millions in funding on the false premise that they make your website accessible. This is of course not the case and these companies are currently part of large lawsuits. Source: I built of them [6] many years ago. [1] https://adrianroselli.com/2020/06/accessibe-will-get-you-sued.html (about this particular one) [2] https://silktide.com/blog/accessibility-overlays-dont-work/ [3] https://level-level.com/blog/accessibility-overlays-common-sense-and-nonsense/ [4] https://www.accessibility.works/blog/avoid-accessibility-overlay-tools-toolbar-plugins/ [5] https://www.siteimprove.com/blog/seen-through-the-eyes-of-a-blind-user-why-overlays-are-not-the-answer-to-web-accessibility/ [6] https://oswaldlabs.com/platform/agastya/
petesergeant 5y ago
where price tho?
- jordank 5y ago
  “The tuition for full-time students who are Arizona residents will be paid for by the state at no cost to families. Students who live in the US, but outside Arizona, will pay $9,900 per year tuition. Students who live outside the US will pay $12,900 per year.”
  - vardhanw 5y ago
    That's too high if you are considering students from all over the world. Why should it be more for outside US students? OTOH, this looks promising (though I haven't read his 2012 book which spells out the 'vision'), and would be great if this can provide a framework for a democratized online schooling system with the flexibilities and features it provides.
    - petesergeant 5y ago
      > That's too high if you are considering students from all over the world I think you under-estimate how much fancy schools cost worldwide. In Bangkok, for example, a very good British-style education will cost you $18k per year at Patana, and if you really want to flash your cash you can drop $30k at Shrewsbury (British) or $30k at ISB (American). I grew up as an expat kid, and this would have been a reasonable alternative for my parents, with the added bonus that I could have stayed with the same peer group and curriculum while they moved country. Socialisation would have been a bit harder but far from impossible. > Why should it be more for outside US students? My guess would be the US subsidises some aspect of this?
    - Bedon292 5y ago
      I have also seen Universities in the US to charge higher tuition for foreign students. Not entirely sure why. Mostly seems like it is because they know they can, and those students will pay in full. With no tuition assistance or anything like that. In this case I am wondering if it could be related to needing additional staff to cover other time zones? Or maybe there are additional administrative paperwork needs for those students?
spupe 5y ago
In some places, remote learning can be far superior to locally available education. I love the Khan Academy and I hope they are successful in this project too.
- k__ 5y ago
  Also, in some situations. I know a social worker who said, there were problematic kids that started "going" to school in the pandemic because it was now from home.
- trompetenaccoun 5y ago
  There's definitely a market for it. I recently learned about expatschool(dot)io, which does the same thing and targets expat kids. Their concept is interesting, they don't give grades, it's similar to Montessori education but they claim to have a strong math/science focus for students who want to go that way. Imo online learning should always be a last resort though. The socializing aspect is important, having kids grow up in from of a computer screen without being able to fool around with their friends and explore the physical world around them seems sad.
- jonshariat 5y ago
  I'm surprised I had to go so far down in the comments to see this pointed out. This is an international venture. There are lots of places in the world where no high school education is offered but an internet connection is, or like you said this offering is better. Online learning is very different and we haven't had many years of experience to perfect it yet. My guess is we will see its effectiveness grow for a few more decades as the nuances get figured out.
zozbot234 5y ago
This is just another paid MOOC, and it seems very expensive for students from outside AZ/the U.S.? I find it kinda disappointing that the Khan folks are getting involved in this kind of thing, as schools might now have reason to start distrusting their previously-successful model of just offering content and support to students and educators in a fair and non-discriminatory way.
- danuker 5y ago
  > I find it kinda disappointing Khan Academy is still free, but it looks like Khan World School has actual humans. > Much of the learning and assessment happens through in-depth discussion with teachers, peers and industry experts. https://asuprep.asu.edu/khan-world-school/academics/ https://asuprep.asu.edu/khan-world-school/academics/
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > Khan Academy is still free, but it looks like Khan World School has actual humans. Yes, but there are real questions of self-imposed incentives and broader optics. What will the Khan folks actually be focusing on going forward? Will they be trying to pivot their Khan Academy offering into a "freebie" funnel, steering their students towards this paid-for MOOC? I'm not saying that this is going to happen, I'm just saying that many schools, educators etc. might naturally worry that it might happen and want to avoid reliance on Khan Academy as a result, perhaps staying away from it altogether.
- wanderingmind 5y ago
  Given the war on math happening in public school systems in multiple states, this is a fantastic antidote for anyone who can afford it.
  - profunctor 5y ago
    War on math?
    - 5y ago
Kosirich 5y ago
In my mind a "better high school of tomorrow" would be the one that utilizes the best available classes and material available online in a physical class room environment, except for classes that are unique to the national curriculum. So a school would have people employed in some new role of mentor/teacher with whom you take the classes online with help and guidance. What would be the stoppers from implementation of this that are not bureaucracy and rent seeking by existing structures... or just pride?
- amitport 5y ago
  Students! Many of them actually want and need to sit in a classroom and have someone teach (!) them. Having a shared syllabus is not really the problem. (I am teaching... I wish more people would actually study independently and I could just mentor them, but in my experience this isn't the case for many students. You may claim it's a matter of habits and education but that's not bureaucracy)
  - Kosirich 5y ago
    Thanks for the reply. Let me start of by saying that I'm aware that a good portion of students will require a more direct approach the same way they will require "parental" oversight for homework. Perhaps I should have restricted the question to the kids/students who have enough discipline/drive/habits for more self-study oriented education.
- frontman1988 5y ago
  Virtual learning will cause massive unemployment among teachers given a virtual teacher can replace the millions of chalk and board teachers. So there's that big lobby who will always oppose such digitalization. Secondly online education is not that good right now. Kids with tiktok attention spans haven't really been thriving in online schools during covid.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    One-on-one tutoring with a mastery-learning approach can raise educational outcomes by two sigma compared to mass lecturing with no differentiation. There will always be plenty of work for good teachers.
jake_morrison 5y ago
Imagine a physics class with the budget of a Mythbusters episode. The result is pedagogically sound content, the best presenters, and a budget for graphics and special effects. With enough students, the cost per class is very low, less than what we pay for school now. Students will still need access to people to help when they have questions. And there is a need for some proctoring of exams/certifications. I expect that the top universities will create content, e.g. Harvard, MIT, Stanford. Then they will partner with local universities and community colleges. Or people can just hire tutors if they need them. This will wipe out a lot of lower-tier schools.
- ketzu 5y ago
  > the cost per class is very low, less than what we pay for school now. Personally, I think adding back the assistants for questions and proctoring will significantly reduce the cost savings (if not nullifying them completely) depending on how you implement them. > Then they will partner with local universities and community colleges > This will wipe out a lot of lower-tier schools. Aren't the lower-tier schools exactly the schools that would be partnering with the top universities?
  - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
    > Personally, I think adding back the assistants for questions and proctoring will significantly reduce the cost savings (if not nullifying them completely) depending on how you implement them. If the quality of education can be improved while maintaining the same costs, that’s a win-win.
  - jake_morrison 5y ago
    The majority of the costs associated with universities is for facilities, administration, and housing, not related to teaching. If students attend classes online while living at home, then the costs go down dramatically. You are left with paying on an hourly basis for a tutor. When my daughter took the AP tests in Oklahoma, some of them were done in nearby churches. They can deliver test proctoring for cheap. You can already get a respected online master's degree in computer science from Georgia Tech for around $10k. And you can do it at night, while working, eliminating opportunity costs. This is incredibly cost-competitive with traditional schools. The elite schools will be fine, as they are essentially offering a private club for rich kids. Other schools will not be sustainable. These dead universities will be great for remote workers, combining office space and housing in a nice walkable campus environment.
umangrathi 5y ago
I am looking forward to the day, when quality formal education is available online to all which you may complete at your own pace instead of going with a strict semester and class system. Also, along with offline schools for supporting social learning and helping classes which require offline components like labs, in person support classes, interest based study groups etc.
- shreyshnaccount 5y ago
  That, and the education structure guided by actual research instead of politics, is the holy grail
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- endisneigh 5y ago
  How exactly is what you’re describing going to work logistically?
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  My school made foreign languages completely unappealing to me by teaching them in the most dull, tick-box way possible in a school where even the top set contained pupils who massively cut into teaching time by behaving like animals, if you've ever seen the UK series The Inbetweeners my school was basically that but with grotty 1950s asbestos-chic buildings that hadn't really been upgraded since they were built. I thought I hated learning languages and promptly forgot the little I learned, but online learning at my own pace rather than a hastily thrown-together timetable with a course that's not being disrupted by constant piss-takers is a completely different experience. I've started learning French and the experience is night and day. I can't help but feel very let down by my state education experience, it feels like British state schools are a uniform Ford-esque production line that takes children as an input, utterly breaks their spirit, and produces a docile blue-collar workforce that doesn't really ask questions as an output. Private schools on the other hand actually seem to set their pupils up for life rather than simply being a cog.
dalbasal 5y ago
Online learning resources are amazing. Compared to pre-internet, the depth, quality and accessibility is amazing. It really does open an opportunity route for a lot of people. However... Institutional learning, whether it's K-12, colleges, techs or whatnot have barely changed. The same fundamental dynamics exist, whether it's tertiary sorting and prestige or primary teaching methods. Education still serves and fails the same groups of people as it did before, in much the same way. Education is an enormous "industry." It's in the same realm as defense, energy or transport. Possibly even more important. I really hope to see online resources develop in such a way that schools can be built around them. A formula that a middle school principal anywhere, no matter how rural and remote, can implement. Why can't we have the best of both worlds? The classroom model didn't work well for me as a student. I don't think remote-only would have worked either.
- vosper 5y ago
  > I really hope to see online resources develop in such a way that schools can be built around them. You might be interested to know that Salman Khan has built a physical school https://www.khanlabschool.org/about/about-kls https://www.khanlabschool.org/about/about-kls
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    This is interesting, but I was somewhat disappointed by the website. They call it a "lab school." I was hoping that meant developing a model which other schools can follow. No shade to Sal, obviously. He does plenty, and does it well.
    - unixhero 5y ago
      Better than no website!
      - dalbasal 5y ago
        I meant disappointed by the content of the website.
_tom_ 5y ago
ASU has an online college program. It's basically a bad port of their in person program. Recorded lectures by whoever is teaching the class this quarter, not a "master teacher", low production values (think webcam, not "myth busters" as someone suggested ), little to no interaction with teachers. (Just recorded videos) and no community at all. Even my local community college is doing better. Not sure why khan academy went with them. They do have infrastructure set up for online. They just manifestly don't know how to design online courses. Maybe khan can help them with that.
wanderingmind 5y ago
Although this will provide highest quality of academic curriculum, the remote only high school also has disadvantages. Being with peers in a physically colocated space is critical for kids to learn social skills that are equally important as academic skills. Being able to have a hybrid model of teachers or volunteers who can drive these interactions in small physical groups will provide the best experience.
- scandox 5y ago
  My instinct is to agree. However it depends on the kind of world that we're actually building. If the future is more: remote working controlled/elective social interactions only strong online communities disconnected from their immediate physical community Then perhaps those offline social skills will be a positive distraction!
  - wanderingmind 5y ago
    Schools are more than just for a career. They are one of the foundation pillars on which our kids character and future are shaped. You can't teach empathy online. They learn when they see their friends breakdown in their arms after first breakup. They learn about bonding when they experience win or lose together arm in arm. As I said, online can teach everything intellectual but hardly anything emotional.
kecupochren 5y ago
Offtopic but it kills me Khan Academy doesn't hire outside the US. Would love to work for them
- another_story 5y ago
  The pay seems quite low.
t_mann 5y ago
There was an essay recently on HN on the merits of individual tutoring for children, in the spirit of Renaissance aristocrat education (not the exam-prep style tutoring that is common today). Projects like Khan Academy could make this extremely resource-intensive style of education a bit more accessible (not on their own maybe, but as a building block). Edit: PS: just remembered, if there were orgs like Khan or other leaders in online learning that managed to become accredited by established programs like the International Baccalaureate, that could be very interesting for students, as it offers practically universal global recognition (as well as a very well-regarded curriculum).
- lordgrenville 5y ago
  Unless I've misunderstood the concept of aristocratic tutoring, I don't think a prerecorded video counts - even by a teacher as good as Sal Khan.
  - t_mann 5y ago
    The site mentions something about Oxford-style tutorials, that sounds like it could come a lot closer. Also, simply having a good curriculum and materials to use could make it easier to provide quality in-person tutoring for whoever does that then (eg parents).
- mymythisisthis 5y ago
  Until the 20th century, professors didn't make much teaching courses at universities. Lectures were just a publicity platform. Most of a professor's income came from tutoring students privately. The majority of a grade was the final exam, so all that mattered was being tutored for that final exam.
- Diris 5y ago
  Providing the link for those interested Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30698624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30698624
say_it_as_it_is 5y ago
Are they dumbing down the curriculum to promote equality?
abrax3141 5y ago
The Kahn Academy is boring online trash dressed up with famous media hype, and this sounds like more of the same. They seem to have anti-learned the lesson from the year* of pandemic online school: So, that was terrible, let’s do more if it and make it sound like a 6 hour straight zoom meeting isn’t everyone’s worst nightmare.
- Marcan 5y ago
  Why would you say that? Can you elaborate? As far as I'm concerned, it is a great free online resource which makes learning accessible to everyone. Sal Khan is also an excellent teacher.
  - abrax3141 5y ago
    There’s like 500 way better online resources for any given KA topic. Take any KA video and compare it with the same topic from Numberphile, VSauce, or even just a random person who knows how to teach.
    - hhmc 5y ago
      > Numberphile, VSauce I just looked at the video listing for these creators and there's nothing but pop-science. I don't understand how it's at all comperable to KA?
      - abrax3141 5y ago
        A. You didn’t look very hard. B. Okay, try PBS space time, Dr PhysicsA, 3Blue1Brown, Strand’s MIT series, Red&Blue. There are so many wonderful resources online to learn from that just need to be meta-organized, KA is the bottom of every heap except for the meta-organization. (And, BTW, many of the others have internal meta-organization.)
    - grapeskin 5y ago
      You’re comparing short entertainment videos vs something meant to break down subjects and teach them bit by bit. Nobody is using Vsauce to help them study a college course. The videos simply don’t exist, and I say this as someone who’s watched the channels you mentioned.
aero-glide2 5y ago
I wish I was born 20 years later.
frankfrankfrank 5y ago
I realize this community is extremely biased as it relates to this announcement, however, this looks like yet another unnecessary funneling and pipeline to force everyone into the exorbitant and group-think conditioning college system. If they want to have an impact, focus on education for vocational and blue collar employment; from agricultural workers to general laborers and small business owners. Americas needs more people who can actually accomplish things, not spilled university students that are profit centers for universities that take all the profit and ensnare dim witted children into debt slavery at the public’s expense. And seriously, ASU? Not LSU or FSU while they’re at it? Just alone the choice of university says something about the orientation, focus, and purpose of this effort.
langsoul-com 5y ago
I reckon this is great for anyone who already can self learn when they were in high school. The cons is that how many people were self motivated in high school? I certainly wasn't. Online highschools fail those who need mentors and teachers to push them forward.
gapovaj742 5y ago
oh wow, this is going to make things more accessible!
abrax3141 5y ago
A lot of the problem is that Kahn is just not a great teacher, but he sets the tone for the whole thing. So instead of being a platform that amplifies great teaching, it amplifies mediocre teaching. It’s a leadership problem where the leader doesn’t realize that he’s not the best in the world, but instead of using his pulpit to reach out and amplify the best in the world, he just amplifies himself.
- jcalabro 5y ago
  I actually disagree with this; when I was in high school, some of his very early videos where he was speaking and digitally drawing helped me quite a bit with calculus. I'm not sure he makes any claims to be the best teacher in the world, but he does try to push the state of the art.
- password54321 5y ago
  You already made this point an hour ago and the fact here is most don't agree. Move on.
huitzitziltzin 5y ago
Very favorable comments all around from the very online crowd who comments here. I’m much more skeptical. I have no doubt this will work well for some students, but as someone who taught online for the better part of two years I can say with certainty that the experience is very different and (for the wide majority of students) worse than being in person. My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (ie., forgetting specific subject matter information) and a loss of broader “studying skills” (ie., coming to class and doing homework) after the pandemic. In intro classes in our department, mean grades have been a whole standard deviation lower than the long run pre-pandemic average. That’s a huge effect! This is also not just specific to our department or university but has been written about widely in the higher ed press. People have been confidently predicting that online education “is the future” since the 1990’s. IMO the lesson of the pandemic is “no it’s not and it’s never going to be.” If online works for you, awesome. Enjoy! There are great resources out there. But I don’t think you are in the majority.
- WinstonSmith84 5y ago
  Maybe there is a difference with kids which have been used to get online schooling from the very beginning and others who suddenly have to study remotely. And then, it may also depend on your family situation at home such as having an independent, quiet room or a noisy shared room .. ?
- PretzelPirate 5y ago
  We’re researchers able to separate the negative effects on children of online learning from the negative effects from other causes such as global panic and uncertainty, the inability to see friends, etc…?
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
    > the inability to see friends At least that last factor is directly correlated with online learning. Also I know from experience that most students in online classes aren’t even actively listening. A good chunk of them end up on YouTube or Instagram.
mymythisisthis 5y ago
I can see this working if Khan World School sought accreditation in a large jurisdiction like Ontario, Canada. A student can take Khan's online math course, while still being enrolled in a brick/mortar school for things like chemistry and drama.
ChicagoDave 5y ago
I swear I just had a dream this morning of partnering with Khan Academy on a new free education curriculum that focused on variation and deep dives. (I once had a story-based ed-tech platform) Then I wake up to this announcement. (Brain exploding emoji) This is the way.
buggythebug 5y ago
Took enough time....
narrator 5y ago
Has anyone ever evaluated different online education approaches and how they work for the not smart kids? I know it is sacrilege to say that some kids are naturally more or less talented than others, but most of the unending and relentless crisis in education it seems is with the kids who are not naturally talented. Maybe these online courses could do a better job at finding out what people are actually good at and focus their learning in those areas?
- gabelschlager 5y ago
  I think real research in this regard is still rare. For one, because not many software solutions exists. But more importantly, performing research studies in schools tend to be difficult (as parents, teachers, the school, etc. have to agree to it). One recent approach in Germany, I'm aware of, was teaching students with an online text book, that immediately offered feedback for exercises and provided other helpful tips. The software was used to enhance the traditional teaching, not to replace it. All in all, students using it tended to perform better on exams, no matter how smart they previously were (though bad students were still worse than the good students using the software). So all in all, it seems to be a viable approach.
endisneigh 5y ago
So instead of wasting money on college, you can waste money on high school too! That aside I’m curious to see how this does. Education suffers from selection and survivor bias greatly.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  "The program will be tuition-free for Arizona residents. Out-of-state students will pay tuition to attend."
alexk307 5y ago
No comment on the pros/cons of online high school, but Khan Academy got me through college Math. I learned Calculus 1,2,3 and differential equations primarily by clarifying what I learned in a lecture by watching Mr. Khan later.
fullshark 5y ago
I read Kahn's book: "The One World School House." I was not a fan of his vision of basically all education being run by a single technology platform, with teachers serving as localized technicians/tutors helping students interface with that technology. This seems like an attempt to make that a reality. I get that this may be better than alternatives for some people, but what I saw during the pandemic basically did little to make me doubt my position.
kkfx 5y ago
Mh... I'm a big fan of remote in general, mostly because I choose to live in a nice place, I have a nice home, nice surroundings etc things cannot exists in modern European cities and in cities in general BUT for young, people who can't and shouldn't already have their own family being together of almost the same age means being able to know each others, socialize, better exchange ideas, cementing relations etc. ALL those things can't be really done remotely. In schooling terms I suggest the Idriss Aberkane "Libérez votre cerveau !" vision where he say a school is like a very rich buffet where when you arrive you are told: "you have to eat anything in a given time at a certain peace, we know you can because we design anything on standard human eating habits, you need to conform". Schools must not be like that, surely their main point is giving a certain set of common knowledge on various topics to from tomorrow mature Citizens, but aside they are also the first step toward the external world outside family. Remain inside, watching the world from remote, is just like watching an XXX movie instead of actually perform, not at all a good thing. Once we have our own family, earned enough (well, or being rich enough anyway) to have a home, a stable situation than WFH is a godsend (unless you can't afford a good home or have family issues) but before... We are social animals. If we are able to craft a new society where we can have a local social life with enough variety of people around of our cohort like at a physical school and we can separate the studying part from that... Well, ok, I'm interesting in discussing it's design and see if and how can work but so far we do not have anything like that. Surely except for very remote/rural living humans we normally all have neighbors and them are from various age so someone of nearly the same age is likely there but that's typically far from the "high school"/"uni" diversity just in mere numbers, if we add in personal interests and culture terms...
throwamon 5y ago
> What type of student is this school designed for? > Highly Engaged + Self-driven + Enthusiastic Nice to see that they will discriminate against socially anxious, depressed and otherwise neurodivergent students from day one.
TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
As far as I can tell, the failure of schools at online education in 2020-21 was because they were trying to use offline methods online. That's not how you do online education. Everyone here that has been in a zoom meeting knows that.
Anumitha12 5y ago
It is definitely a great initiative, and Khan academy has always nailed course materials. I can't wait to see what they've done with this! It'll have its share of pros and cons, it'll work for some, might not work for many. This will work out for most if its part-time and they go to in-person as well, to get both social and explorative schooling. For self-learners this will be a gold-mine, for anyone who wants to take the cognitive and explorative approach will probably benefit from this.
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tonyspy 5y ago

584 points by webmaven 5y ago

The concept of an online high school may sound terrible, but sooner or later it’s bound to happen: quality education will keep consolidating until there’s one super school left. Outlier is doing the same thing but on the college level: why deal with a mediocre local math teacher if you can get taught by the best?

azinman2 5y ago
Because there’s more to high school than just classes. It’s important to learn how to deal with people as well. A purely virtual high school experience sounds extremely lonely and thin for the soul.
- frontman1988 5y ago
  Social learning can happen outside school in sports or other hobby related activities. High school is actually quite a weird place to learn social skills.
  - DeWilde 5y ago
    Yes, but the 5-6 hours you spend within a school alongside 3-4 hours you can spend on sports and hobbies probably out-competes just sports and hobbies.
  - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
    Not every kid is going to be a part of sports and hobbies clubs. A lot of us never had any friends outside of school. We need some kind of institution to facilitate social interactions between children. Till date that has been the function of schools. Moving away from this model, without proper deliberation, is sure to cause problems afterwards. And then we’ll all look back and ask why the world’s feeling more isolated than ever.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  And we all know the best way to learn about how to deal with people is putting them in a group of incompatible people in a high-stress, prison-like environment. What could possibly go wrong? As long as high schools are facilities that push some people to extreme actions I think the 'social education' you would get there is too expensive for society as a whole.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - andrewinardeer 5y ago
    I find that your first paragraph is very negative and has an insular posture. Dealing and managing with other people who are incompatible with your ethics and morality is an important skill to learn. Not only does it help you learn asseriveness and diplomacy it also allows one to gain an insight into your own personal bias and teaches you how to respond and not react. A lot of grown, so called 'adults' still need to learn this skill set from my observations in day to day life.
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      Yeah I definitely remember everyone learning to be diplomatic in high school. /s
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      I love how you bring up diplomacy. It brings up all kinds of associations, good old Clausewitz not being the least of them when you consider what else happens at schools.
    - password54321 5y ago
      In a perfect world that's what school teaches you. What gets you through high school in a lot of social circumstances is nothing close to any sort of diplomatic behaviour or assertiveness. The louder more aggressive person usually came out on top. Maybe a lot of people here went to some private school where somehow logic, analytical ability and being polite is what got you through but that certainly doesn't describe where I went and can't imagine a public school being this way.
- donthellbanme 5y ago
  The minute I found out I could work, and go to a Communty College, instead of going to high school I thought I won the lottery. Long story short my high school allowed gave credit for working, and going to a Communty College. Once I got to the CC it was relief. My classmates were a lot older, but that was great. Their was no BS. I made great friends. I didn't like high school much. I was respected because I was a good athlete, but hated high school. I also got a few brownie points because I survived a fight with the ultimate school bully. I went to the same school that our CA governor went to. He was ahead of me, but only graduated because his parents helped him out along the way. I could go on, but don't have the energy tonight. He is very open about his learning difficulties. O.k. so back to my high school memories. My acne was so bad, I just wanted to hide. My hormones were crazy. I remember having to get to the school at 7:00 for no reason other than listening to some disenfranchised tenure teacher rattle on about their gripes in life. The only thing I liked about high school was a kind biology teacher, and looking at those cheer leaders. Even at the time, I thought those four years in high school could have been condensed to two year if properly administrated. If I had a kid, and they hated high school like myself, I would walk them into a CC admissions office.
  - gscott 5y ago
    So many high schools are dysfuntional I was able to get my son into Cc for the last two years of high school. Made a huge difference in his life.
- magpi3 5y ago
  I hear this argument a lot, but lets's ask the question: are high schools the best way to learn to "deal with people?" How much trauma have high schools inspired and can we do better now that we have other options?
  - azinman2 5y ago
    No one is shitty like children are. It’s part of growing up and a great source of bad interactions that teach us about the world and ourselves. If the only thing you do in life is protect yourself into a perfect atmosphere, the less you are prepared for the real world which is unpredictable and full of trauma.
    - magpi3 5y ago
      Is this opinion just Stockholm syndrome since we were all forced to go through it? What other models do we have to compare it to? I would argue that segregating children by age for schooling purposes is a relatively modern idea that probably runs counter to tens if not hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
- nvarsj 5y ago
  Learning social skills in high school is more like learning how to survive in a prison yard - it couldn't be more far removed from adult social skills. I'd say functional, healthy high schools are in the tiny minority, and generally are private and small.
- txsoftwaredev 5y ago
  Do you believe that kids that do online learning never leave their home or have any friends? That's a pretty ignorant view. There are tons of opportunities for kids to have positive social interactions with peers as well as younger and older children, as well as adults. Being forced to interact with a handful of kids around their age in a public school is not a great way to socializing. My kids are all homeschooled, including parent taught as well as online education, and have friends of different ages with caring parents that are all very involved. They have outside activities including, music, PE, play time with friends at the park, zoo trips, museums etc.
irjustin 5y ago
> one super school left I don't believe so there is huge problems with hybrid/offline learning at scale with distractions, social interactions etc that cannot be fundamentally solved by Khan Academy. But having a 'master teacher' is something I definitely welcome because my education, like so many others, varied year to year, on say math, because of educator quality. Khan's 'reverse school' is something I wish I could have experienced growing up as I think it would personally have worked for me.
csande17 5y ago
Online high schools are already a thing; Connections Academy is the largest where I live. I took a few classes there, and from what I remember, the primary mode of instruction was a janky early-2000s webapp that presented excerpts and quiz questions from a textbook. There were teachers and lectures, but a lot of kids didn't show up to those, and class sizes were relatively small. (I was frequently the only kid who dialed in to the conference call for my French conversation class, so I got a lot of one-on-one time with the teacher.) Social events like clubs were primarily handled through web forums that I didn't spend much time in because I wasn't a full-time student at the school. The marketing copy here makes it sound like Khan World School is fundamentally the same model, but hopefully Khan Academy's online textbooks are a little less janky.
frontman1988 5y ago
This is indeed the future of education. It is something the governments should do now in countries with substandard educators. A few superstar rockstar teachers can replace millions of average teachers. The offline physical teacher will be there to merely solve doubts(and ensure kids are actually watching stuff) while the online teacher streams live to millions of students. The biggest challenge will be to make the experience so immersive that kids can learn online. VR might be able to help in this regard.
- maaanu 5y ago
  If you think that your description is teaching, you never had a teacher or only very lousy ones.
dodyg 5y ago
> quality education will keep consolidating until there’s one super school left. Right, we are all graduated from Harvard here.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> why deal with a mediocre local math teacher if you can get taught by the best? Because…you actually can’t. Static media (like books and non-interactive lectures) scales easily, but that’s not teaching (even if, especially in large lower-division courses, that’s what university faculty essentially does.) Human interactivity, which is what teaching fundamentally is, doesn’t scale, which is why those large lecture classes typically also have smaller TA-led “discussion sections” or sonething similar. And, in many cases, as well as not scaling, it works a lot better in person than remotely.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  To be fair, there are "interactive" teaching methods that scale very well. In old-time schools, it was common for a single teacher to teach a large number of students, who would rote learn a teacher-prepared "lesson" and chant it back word-for-word when prompted. Students would similarly be introduced to practice in e.g. grammar or math, simply by hearing problem questions from the teacher and shouting back the right answers. Thus they were prepared for anything that might turn up on a later test. This education system could be carried forward to quite advanced levels, equivalent to a modern high school education or even to some parts of community college. Abraham Lincoln was taught in this way, and like many other students he had a habit of rehearsing his material out loud while going to school and back. It was not ineffective, though individual tutoring would've been the gold standard even back then.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
    > To be fair, there are "interactive" teaching methods that scale very well. In old-time schools, it was common for a single teacher to teach a large number of students, who would rote learn a teacher-prepared "lesson" and chant it back word-for-word when prompted. > […] > It was not ineffective, though individual tutoring would've been the gold standard even back then. Then it doesn’t scale very well.
- 5y ago
Foobar8568 5y ago
That's already the case today if you are not in a very good sector, at least in France and Switzerland.
Mvandenbergh 5y ago
As others have said, the fundamental challenge is that teaching, as usually defined, doesn't scale like that and that turning it into a non-interactive process removes much of what makes it more effective than just giving out a textbook. Part of the problem is that many people take undergraduate lectures as a reference point and then think "well, there's no reason this couldn't be recorded, have interactive quizzes added, and then be better than physically attending a lecture of 200 people". That isn't wrong per se but mega lectures are barely teaching as it is and we should not be seeking to replicate them! I know people bang on about the (much misunderstood) 2 sigma problem but I'm going to do it as well. Regardless of the exact result, we know a few things: First, we know that intensive 1:1 tutoring moves the mean performance up by two standard deviations. Second, we know from other research that there is a correlation between class size and performance. That is obviously linked in that as classes get smaller, teaching styles can get progressively closer to 1:1 tuition. A class with ten people in it has room for a substantial amount of brief 1:1 interventions, especially if there are no behavioural problems in the group (so the teacher is not diverting massive amounts of time to classroom management) whereas a class of 30 makes that much more difficult. Conclusion from that, plus the fact that undergraduate classes are often taught by research experts with no teaching nor mentoring in pedagogic technique, is that the undergrad chalk-on-board lecture with 200 students is at the far end of effective use of time from 1:1 tuition. So if tuition is the most "taught" of the learning styles, a large lecture is all the way over on the opposite end with "just read a textbook". In fact, universities know this which is why they supplement lectures with grad-student led problem solving / discussion sessions, seminar groups, and small group tutorials. Some universities, for some subjects, use only small group tutorials (e.g. Oxford colleges for many humanities subjects) and lectures if they exist are very much optional. Most universities do not have the resources to do very much of this except for more advanced subjects but this has nothing to do with these techniques only being appropriate for such subjects - small group classes are also the most effective way of teaching Intro Calculus or Introduction to the Novel. Arguably they might be even more important in that context. So the modern formulation of the two sigma problem to me is as follows: given that we can currently duplicate the (very bad) mega lecture format using technology, how much of the performance from actual teaching (the purest form of which is 1:1 tuition) can be captured using something less resource intensive?
vampiretooth1 5y ago
Turning standard education into something scalable is going to be very interesting. We're already seeing this with MOOC and all, but when it's a part of a national network that students can plug into - I'm excited about the potential here. I like the super school idea, gives me the impression of a merit-based winner-take-all system

2Gkashmiri 5y ago

so this is specifically for US students only? also, is this like a permanent school? like you can be registered in khan world high school and not be enrolled in any "physical" school? do you drop out of your previous/current school? what about if you want to join this school as well as your existing school?

petesergeant 5y ago
On the landing page: "Students from around the world"
- Arnavion 5y ago
  They may accept students from around the world, but whether it counts as a high school for the purpose of continuing on to higher education is country-specific, which (I assume) is why 2Gkashmiri asked what they did. Also, based on the About Us page, the requirements for submitting an application are quite US-centric ("Student must be proficient in Algebra 1", etc). I did not try to fill out an actual application to see if they accept other countries' alternatives (I assume they do).
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    > Tuition for all students does include the opportunity to take two university courses per semester and earn college credit. Even the most irritatingly bureaucracy obsessed box ticking country, i.e. Germany, would accept a transcript with two college courses per semester as a university preparatory high school.
    - searchableguy 5y ago
      Many countries do not accept online education as a valid form of education. India doesn't unless the institution is approved by the UGC or act of Parliament. Same story in China. American credits are also treated very differently outside.
    - watwut 5y ago

aaws11 5y ago

the accessibility widget in the site is probably the sweetest thing I've ever seen on the internet.

anandchowdhary 5y ago
Actually -- these are not good for accessibility [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. These companies have raised millions in funding on the false premise that they make your website accessible. This is of course not the case and these companies are currently part of large lawsuits. Source: I built of them [6] many years ago. [1] https://adrianroselli.com/2020/06/accessibe-will-get-you-sued.html (about this particular one) [2] https://silktide.com/blog/accessibility-overlays-dont-work/ [3] https://level-level.com/blog/accessibility-overlays-common-sense-and-nonsense/ [4] https://www.accessibility.works/blog/avoid-accessibility-overlay-tools-toolbar-plugins/ [5] https://www.siteimprove.com/blog/seen-through-the-eyes-of-a-blind-user-why-overlays-are-not-the-answer-to-web-accessibility/ [6] https://oswaldlabs.com/platform/agastya/

petesergeant 5y ago

where price tho?

jordank 5y ago
“The tuition for full-time students who are Arizona residents will be paid for by the state at no cost to families. Students who live in the US, but outside Arizona, will pay $9,900 per year tuition. Students who live outside the US will pay $12,900 per year.”
- vardhanw 5y ago
  That's too high if you are considering students from all over the world. Why should it be more for outside US students? OTOH, this looks promising (though I haven't read his 2012 book which spells out the 'vision'), and would be great if this can provide a framework for a democratized online schooling system with the flexibilities and features it provides.
  - petesergeant 5y ago
    > That's too high if you are considering students from all over the world I think you under-estimate how much fancy schools cost worldwide. In Bangkok, for example, a very good British-style education will cost you $18k per year at Patana, and if you really want to flash your cash you can drop $30k at Shrewsbury (British) or $30k at ISB (American). I grew up as an expat kid, and this would have been a reasonable alternative for my parents, with the added bonus that I could have stayed with the same peer group and curriculum while they moved country. Socialisation would have been a bit harder but far from impossible. > Why should it be more for outside US students? My guess would be the US subsidises some aspect of this?
  - Bedon292 5y ago
    I have also seen Universities in the US to charge higher tuition for foreign students. Not entirely sure why. Mostly seems like it is because they know they can, and those students will pay in full. With no tuition assistance or anything like that. In this case I am wondering if it could be related to needing additional staff to cover other time zones? Or maybe there are additional administrative paperwork needs for those students?

spupe 5y ago

In some places, remote learning can be far superior to locally available education. I love the Khan Academy and I hope they are successful in this project too.

k__ 5y ago
Also, in some situations. I know a social worker who said, there were problematic kids that started "going" to school in the pandemic because it was now from home.
trompetenaccoun 5y ago
There's definitely a market for it. I recently learned about expatschool(dot)io, which does the same thing and targets expat kids. Their concept is interesting, they don't give grades, it's similar to Montessori education but they claim to have a strong math/science focus for students who want to go that way. Imo online learning should always be a last resort though. The socializing aspect is important, having kids grow up in from of a computer screen without being able to fool around with their friends and explore the physical world around them seems sad.
jonshariat 5y ago
I'm surprised I had to go so far down in the comments to see this pointed out. This is an international venture. There are lots of places in the world where no high school education is offered but an internet connection is, or like you said this offering is better. Online learning is very different and we haven't had many years of experience to perfect it yet. My guess is we will see its effectiveness grow for a few more decades as the nuances get figured out.

zozbot234 5y ago

This is just another paid MOOC, and it seems very expensive for students from outside AZ/the U.S.? I find it kinda disappointing that the Khan folks are getting involved in this kind of thing, as schools might now have reason to start distrusting their previously-successful model of just offering content and support to students and educators in a fair and non-discriminatory way.

danuker 5y ago
> I find it kinda disappointing Khan Academy is still free, but it looks like Khan World School has actual humans. > Much of the learning and assessment happens through in-depth discussion with teachers, peers and industry experts. https://asuprep.asu.edu/khan-world-school/academics/ https://asuprep.asu.edu/khan-world-school/academics/
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > Khan Academy is still free, but it looks like Khan World School has actual humans. Yes, but there are real questions of self-imposed incentives and broader optics. What will the Khan folks actually be focusing on going forward? Will they be trying to pivot their Khan Academy offering into a "freebie" funnel, steering their students towards this paid-for MOOC? I'm not saying that this is going to happen, I'm just saying that many schools, educators etc. might naturally worry that it might happen and want to avoid reliance on Khan Academy as a result, perhaps staying away from it altogether.
wanderingmind 5y ago
Given the war on math happening in public school systems in multiple states, this is a fantastic antidote for anyone who can afford it.
- profunctor 5y ago
  War on math?
  - 5y ago

Kosirich 5y ago

In my mind a "better high school of tomorrow" would be the one that utilizes the best available classes and material available online in a physical class room environment, except for classes that are unique to the national curriculum. So a school would have people employed in some new role of mentor/teacher with whom you take the classes online with help and guidance. What would be the stoppers from implementation of this that are not bureaucracy and rent seeking by existing structures... or just pride?

amitport 5y ago
Students! Many of them actually want and need to sit in a classroom and have someone teach (!) them. Having a shared syllabus is not really the problem. (I am teaching... I wish more people would actually study independently and I could just mentor them, but in my experience this isn't the case for many students. You may claim it's a matter of habits and education but that's not bureaucracy)
- Kosirich 5y ago
  Thanks for the reply. Let me start of by saying that I'm aware that a good portion of students will require a more direct approach the same way they will require "parental" oversight for homework. Perhaps I should have restricted the question to the kids/students who have enough discipline/drive/habits for more self-study oriented education.
frontman1988 5y ago
Virtual learning will cause massive unemployment among teachers given a virtual teacher can replace the millions of chalk and board teachers. So there's that big lobby who will always oppose such digitalization. Secondly online education is not that good right now. Kids with tiktok attention spans haven't really been thriving in online schools during covid.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  One-on-one tutoring with a mastery-learning approach can raise educational outcomes by two sigma compared to mass lecturing with no differentiation. There will always be plenty of work for good teachers.

jake_morrison 5y ago

Imagine a physics class with the budget of a Mythbusters episode. The result is pedagogically sound content, the best presenters, and a budget for graphics and special effects. With enough students, the cost per class is very low, less than what we pay for school now. Students will still need access to people to help when they have questions. And there is a need for some proctoring of exams/certifications. I expect that the top universities will create content, e.g. Harvard, MIT, Stanford. Then they will partner with local universities and community colleges. Or people can just hire tutors if they need them. This will wipe out a lot of lower-tier schools.

ketzu 5y ago
> the cost per class is very low, less than what we pay for school now. Personally, I think adding back the assistants for questions and proctoring will significantly reduce the cost savings (if not nullifying them completely) depending on how you implement them. > Then they will partner with local universities and community colleges > This will wipe out a lot of lower-tier schools. Aren't the lower-tier schools exactly the schools that would be partnering with the top universities?
- MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
  > Personally, I think adding back the assistants for questions and proctoring will significantly reduce the cost savings (if not nullifying them completely) depending on how you implement them. If the quality of education can be improved while maintaining the same costs, that’s a win-win.
- jake_morrison 5y ago
  The majority of the costs associated with universities is for facilities, administration, and housing, not related to teaching. If students attend classes online while living at home, then the costs go down dramatically. You are left with paying on an hourly basis for a tutor. When my daughter took the AP tests in Oklahoma, some of them were done in nearby churches. They can deliver test proctoring for cheap. You can already get a respected online master's degree in computer science from Georgia Tech for around $10k. And you can do it at night, while working, eliminating opportunity costs. This is incredibly cost-competitive with traditional schools. The elite schools will be fine, as they are essentially offering a private club for rich kids. Other schools will not be sustainable. These dead universities will be great for remote workers, combining office space and housing in a nice walkable campus environment.

umangrathi 5y ago

I am looking forward to the day, when quality formal education is available online to all which you may complete at your own pace instead of going with a strict semester and class system. Also, along with offline schools for supporting social learning and helping classes which require offline components like labs, in person support classes, interest based study groups etc.

shreyshnaccount 5y ago
That, and the education structure guided by actual research instead of politics, is the holy grail
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endisneigh 5y ago
How exactly is what you’re describing going to work logistically?
BoxOfRain 5y ago
My school made foreign languages completely unappealing to me by teaching them in the most dull, tick-box way possible in a school where even the top set contained pupils who massively cut into teaching time by behaving like animals, if you've ever seen the UK series The Inbetweeners my school was basically that but with grotty 1950s asbestos-chic buildings that hadn't really been upgraded since they were built. I thought I hated learning languages and promptly forgot the little I learned, but online learning at my own pace rather than a hastily thrown-together timetable with a course that's not being disrupted by constant piss-takers is a completely different experience. I've started learning French and the experience is night and day. I can't help but feel very let down by my state education experience, it feels like British state schools are a uniform Ford-esque production line that takes children as an input, utterly breaks their spirit, and produces a docile blue-collar workforce that doesn't really ask questions as an output. Private schools on the other hand actually seem to set their pupils up for life rather than simply being a cog.

dalbasal 5y ago

Online learning resources are amazing. Compared to pre-internet, the depth, quality and accessibility is amazing. It really does open an opportunity route for a lot of people. However... Institutional learning, whether it's K-12, colleges, techs or whatnot have barely changed. The same fundamental dynamics exist, whether it's tertiary sorting and prestige or primary teaching methods. Education still serves and fails the same groups of people as it did before, in much the same way. Education is an enormous "industry." It's in the same realm as defense, energy or transport. Possibly even more important. I really hope to see online resources develop in such a way that schools can be built around them. A formula that a middle school principal anywhere, no matter how rural and remote, can implement. Why can't we have the best of both worlds? The classroom model didn't work well for me as a student. I don't think remote-only would have worked either.

vosper 5y ago
> I really hope to see online resources develop in such a way that schools can be built around them. You might be interested to know that Salman Khan has built a physical school https://www.khanlabschool.org/about/about-kls https://www.khanlabschool.org/about/about-kls
- dalbasal 5y ago
  This is interesting, but I was somewhat disappointed by the website. They call it a "lab school." I was hoping that meant developing a model which other schools can follow. No shade to Sal, obviously. He does plenty, and does it well.
  - unixhero 5y ago
    Better than no website!
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      I meant disappointed by the content of the website.

_tom_ 5y ago

ASU has an online college program. It's basically a bad port of their in person program. Recorded lectures by whoever is teaching the class this quarter, not a "master teacher", low production values (think webcam, not "myth busters" as someone suggested ), little to no interaction with teachers. (Just recorded videos) and no community at all. Even my local community college is doing better. Not sure why khan academy went with them. They do have infrastructure set up for online. They just manifestly don't know how to design online courses. Maybe khan can help them with that.

wanderingmind 5y ago

Although this will provide highest quality of academic curriculum, the remote only high school also has disadvantages. Being with peers in a physically colocated space is critical for kids to learn social skills that are equally important as academic skills. Being able to have a hybrid model of teachers or volunteers who can drive these interactions in small physical groups will provide the best experience.

scandox 5y ago
My instinct is to agree. However it depends on the kind of world that we're actually building. If the future is more: remote working controlled/elective social interactions only strong online communities disconnected from their immediate physical community Then perhaps those offline social skills will be a positive distraction!
- wanderingmind 5y ago
  Schools are more than just for a career. They are one of the foundation pillars on which our kids character and future are shaped. You can't teach empathy online. They learn when they see their friends breakdown in their arms after first breakup. They learn about bonding when they experience win or lose together arm in arm. As I said, online can teach everything intellectual but hardly anything emotional.

kecupochren 5y ago

Offtopic but it kills me Khan Academy doesn't hire outside the US. Would love to work for them

another_story 5y ago
The pay seems quite low.

t_mann 5y ago

There was an essay recently on HN on the merits of individual tutoring for children, in the spirit of Renaissance aristocrat education (not the exam-prep style tutoring that is common today). Projects like Khan Academy could make this extremely resource-intensive style of education a bit more accessible (not on their own maybe, but as a building block). Edit: PS: just remembered, if there were orgs like Khan or other leaders in online learning that managed to become accredited by established programs like the International Baccalaureate, that could be very interesting for students, as it offers practically universal global recognition (as well as a very well-regarded curriculum).

lordgrenville 5y ago
Unless I've misunderstood the concept of aristocratic tutoring, I don't think a prerecorded video counts - even by a teacher as good as Sal Khan.
- t_mann 5y ago
  The site mentions something about Oxford-style tutorials, that sounds like it could come a lot closer. Also, simply having a good curriculum and materials to use could make it easier to provide quality in-person tutoring for whoever does that then (eg parents).
mymythisisthis 5y ago
Until the 20th century, professors didn't make much teaching courses at universities. Lectures were just a publicity platform. Most of a professor's income came from tutoring students privately. The majority of a grade was the final exam, so all that mattered was being tutored for that final exam.
Diris 5y ago
Providing the link for those interested Geniuses of the past were aristocratically tutored https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30698624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30698624

say_it_as_it_is 5y ago

Are they dumbing down the curriculum to promote equality?

abrax3141 5y ago

The Kahn Academy is boring online trash dressed up with famous media hype, and this sounds like more of the same. They seem to have anti-learned the lesson from the year* of pandemic online school: So, that was terrible, let’s do more if it and make it sound like a 6 hour straight zoom meeting isn’t everyone’s worst nightmare.

Marcan 5y ago
Why would you say that? Can you elaborate? As far as I'm concerned, it is a great free online resource which makes learning accessible to everyone. Sal Khan is also an excellent teacher.
- abrax3141 5y ago
  There’s like 500 way better online resources for any given KA topic. Take any KA video and compare it with the same topic from Numberphile, VSauce, or even just a random person who knows how to teach.
  - hhmc 5y ago
    > Numberphile, VSauce I just looked at the video listing for these creators and there's nothing but pop-science. I don't understand how it's at all comperable to KA?
    - abrax3141 5y ago
      A. You didn’t look very hard. B. Okay, try PBS space time, Dr PhysicsA, 3Blue1Brown, Strand’s MIT series, Red&Blue. There are so many wonderful resources online to learn from that just need to be meta-organized, KA is the bottom of every heap except for the meta-organization. (And, BTW, many of the others have internal meta-organization.)
  - grapeskin 5y ago
    You’re comparing short entertainment videos vs something meant to break down subjects and teach them bit by bit. Nobody is using Vsauce to help them study a college course. The videos simply don’t exist, and I say this as someone who’s watched the channels you mentioned.

aero-glide2 5y ago

I wish I was born 20 years later.

frankfrankfrank 5y ago

I realize this community is extremely biased as it relates to this announcement, however, this looks like yet another unnecessary funneling and pipeline to force everyone into the exorbitant and group-think conditioning college system. If they want to have an impact, focus on education for vocational and blue collar employment; from agricultural workers to general laborers and small business owners. Americas needs more people who can actually accomplish things, not spilled university students that are profit centers for universities that take all the profit and ensnare dim witted children into debt slavery at the public’s expense. And seriously, ASU? Not LSU or FSU while they’re at it? Just alone the choice of university says something about the orientation, focus, and purpose of this effort.

langsoul-com 5y ago

I reckon this is great for anyone who already can self learn when they were in high school. The cons is that how many people were self motivated in high school? I certainly wasn't. Online highschools fail those who need mentors and teachers to push them forward.

gapovaj742 5y ago

oh wow, this is going to make things more accessible!

abrax3141 5y ago

A lot of the problem is that Kahn is just not a great teacher, but he sets the tone for the whole thing. So instead of being a platform that amplifies great teaching, it amplifies mediocre teaching. It’s a leadership problem where the leader doesn’t realize that he’s not the best in the world, but instead of using his pulpit to reach out and amplify the best in the world, he just amplifies himself.

jcalabro 5y ago
I actually disagree with this; when I was in high school, some of his very early videos where he was speaking and digitally drawing helped me quite a bit with calculus. I'm not sure he makes any claims to be the best teacher in the world, but he does try to push the state of the art.
password54321 5y ago
You already made this point an hour ago and the fact here is most don't agree. Move on.

huitzitziltzin 5y ago

Very favorable comments all around from the very online crowd who comments here. I’m much more skeptical. I have no doubt this will work well for some students, but as someone who taught online for the better part of two years I can say with certainty that the experience is very different and (for the wide majority of students) worse than being in person. My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (ie., forgetting specific subject matter information) and a loss of broader “studying skills” (ie., coming to class and doing homework) after the pandemic. In intro classes in our department, mean grades have been a whole standard deviation lower than the long run pre-pandemic average. That’s a huge effect! This is also not just specific to our department or university but has been written about widely in the higher ed press. People have been confidently predicting that online education “is the future” since the 1990’s. IMO the lesson of the pandemic is “no it’s not and it’s never going to be.” If online works for you, awesome. Enjoy! There are great resources out there. But I don’t think you are in the majority.

WinstonSmith84 5y ago
Maybe there is a difference with kids which have been used to get online schooling from the very beginning and others who suddenly have to study remotely. And then, it may also depend on your family situation at home such as having an independent, quiet room or a noisy shared room .. ?
PretzelPirate 5y ago
We’re researchers able to separate the negative effects on children of online learning from the negative effects from other causes such as global panic and uncertainty, the inability to see friends, etc…?
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- MrBlueIncognito 5y ago
  > the inability to see friends At least that last factor is directly correlated with online learning. Also I know from experience that most students in online classes aren’t even actively listening. A good chunk of them end up on YouTube or Instagram.

mymythisisthis 5y ago

I can see this working if Khan World School sought accreditation in a large jurisdiction like Ontario, Canada. A student can take Khan's online math course, while still being enrolled in a brick/mortar school for things like chemistry and drama.

ChicagoDave 5y ago

I swear I just had a dream this morning of partnering with Khan Academy on a new free education curriculum that focused on variation and deep dives. (I once had a story-based ed-tech platform) Then I wake up to this announcement. (Brain exploding emoji) This is the way.

buggythebug 5y ago

Took enough time....

narrator 5y ago

Has anyone ever evaluated different online education approaches and how they work for the not smart kids? I know it is sacrilege to say that some kids are naturally more or less talented than others, but most of the unending and relentless crisis in education it seems is with the kids who are not naturally talented. Maybe these online courses could do a better job at finding out what people are actually good at and focus their learning in those areas?

gabelschlager 5y ago
I think real research in this regard is still rare. For one, because not many software solutions exists. But more importantly, performing research studies in schools tend to be difficult (as parents, teachers, the school, etc. have to agree to it). One recent approach in Germany, I'm aware of, was teaching students with an online text book, that immediately offered feedback for exercises and provided other helpful tips. The software was used to enhance the traditional teaching, not to replace it. All in all, students using it tended to perform better on exams, no matter how smart they previously were (though bad students were still worse than the good students using the software). So all in all, it seems to be a viable approach.

endisneigh 5y ago

So instead of wasting money on college, you can waste money on high school too! That aside I’m curious to see how this does. Education suffers from selection and survivor bias greatly.

rahimnathwani 5y ago
"The program will be tuition-free for Arizona residents. Out-of-state students will pay tuition to attend."

alexk307 5y ago

No comment on the pros/cons of online high school, but Khan Academy got me through college Math. I learned Calculus 1,2,3 and differential equations primarily by clarifying what I learned in a lecture by watching Mr. Khan later.

fullshark 5y ago

I read Kahn's book: "The One World School House." I was not a fan of his vision of basically all education being run by a single technology platform, with teachers serving as localized technicians/tutors helping students interface with that technology. This seems like an attempt to make that a reality. I get that this may be better than alternatives for some people, but what I saw during the pandemic basically did little to make me doubt my position.

kkfx 5y ago

Mh... I'm a big fan of remote in general, mostly because I choose to live in a nice place, I have a nice home, nice surroundings etc things cannot exists in modern European cities and in cities in general BUT for young, people who can't and shouldn't already have their own family being together of almost the same age means being able to know each others, socialize, better exchange ideas, cementing relations etc. ALL those things can't be really done remotely. In schooling terms I suggest the Idriss Aberkane "Libérez votre cerveau !" vision where he say a school is like a very rich buffet where when you arrive you are told: "you have to eat anything in a given time at a certain peace, we know you can because we design anything on standard human eating habits, you need to conform". Schools must not be like that, surely their main point is giving a certain set of common knowledge on various topics to from tomorrow mature Citizens, but aside they are also the first step toward the external world outside family. Remain inside, watching the world from remote, is just like watching an XXX movie instead of actually perform, not at all a good thing. Once we have our own family, earned enough (well, or being rich enough anyway) to have a home, a stable situation than WFH is a godsend (unless you can't afford a good home or have family issues) but before... We are social animals. If we are able to craft a new society where we can have a local social life with enough variety of people around of our cohort like at a physical school and we can separate the studying part from that... Well, ok, I'm interesting in discussing it's design and see if and how can work but so far we do not have anything like that. Surely except for very remote/rural living humans we normally all have neighbors and them are from various age so someone of nearly the same age is likely there but that's typically far from the "high school"/"uni" diversity just in mere numbers, if we add in personal interests and culture terms...

throwamon 5y ago

> What type of student is this school designed for? > Highly Engaged + Self-driven + Enthusiastic Nice to see that they will discriminate against socially anxious, depressed and otherwise neurodivergent students from day one.

TheMagicHorsey 5y ago

As far as I can tell, the failure of schools at online education in 2020-21 was because they were trying to use offline methods online. That's not how you do online education. Everyone here that has been in a zoom meeting knows that.

Anumitha12 5y ago

It is definitely a great initiative, and Khan academy has always nailed course materials. I can't wait to see what they've done with this! It'll have its share of pros and cons, it'll work for some, might not work for many. This will work out for most if its part-time and they go to in-person as well, to get both social and explorative schooling. For self-learners this will be a gold-mine, for anyone who wants to take the cognitive and explorative approach will probably benefit from this.

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