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A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

• fareesh 4y ago
  Dishwashers have not really caught on in India. I wash my plate or glass in the sink immediately when I'm done. I've done this for my entire life and I find it strange that people postpone it for later. Why would you?
  • frontman1988 4y ago
    Maids are cheaper than dishwashers in India.
  • acuozzo 4y ago
    1. It's far easier to populate a dishwasher after feeding e.g. a family of four than it is to immediately wash all of the utensils, dishes, bowls, pots, and pans. This task is usually delegated to one member of a household in the US. 2. "Contrary to popular belief, the dishwasher is designed to be more efficient than the way most of us handwash dishes. According to Energy Star, certified dishwashers use less than four gallons per cycle. The sink uses four gallons of water every two minutes. But just how many dishes do you need to make the dishwasher a more water efficient choice? In a recent study, Cascade found that the average person spends 15 seconds handwashing a dish. In that time, the sink uses half a gallon of water. That’s why running your dishwasher with as few as eight dishes is all it takes to save water."
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• nicoburns 4y ago
  My pet peeve is people who leave dirty dishes in the sink rather than next to the sink. This seems to considered the correct/polite place to leave them by some people. But it means that other people can't use the sink without first moving your dishes!
• ggm 4y ago
  Some lessons are very hard to learn after the event, the author is right that it's better to learn these ones up front.
  • dazc 4y ago
    Be blind to his/her faults is generally good advice, so long as they are minor irritations.
    • ggm 4y ago
      Kinda Tao of the ietf: try to meet expectations and be accepting of failure. But dude, if she says dirty dishes by the sink won't fly you should listen. 30 years of that can break anyone. One of the colditz pows said the way a guy asked you to pass the salt for 5 years straight could be semi fatal
    • brudgers 4y ago
      Disrespect is not minor.
    • j79 4y ago
      When my wife and I started dating, we stumbled across this video which I like to recommend to friends and family: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1tCAXVsClw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1tCAXVsClw The speaker talks about the "Price of Admission" when it comes to relationships. We consider these "minor irritations" as the Price of Admission :)
      • ramses0 4y ago
        I've recommended that video to near 100 people, it's so heartfelt and insightful.
• js2 4y ago
  Share this article with your partner. Ask them: "what are the dishes I'm leaving by the sink?"
  • AlwaysRock 4y ago
    But please don't share this with your partner if you fight about the dish by the sink. It will come off like you are rubbing their face in it.
• ay 4y ago
  It’s very simple. If something is minor for you but your partner prompts you extensively that it triggers them - change yourself. The willingness to listen and change yourself is what signals your love. Because everything else is much easier.
  • captaincaveman 4y ago
    'Change yourself', 'just be yourself', no one can decide what the duck to do! Do you keep changing yourself to meet their every whim, maybe they should just let it go, it's just a glass?
    • ay 4y ago
      Why would you be with a person you aren’t willing to change yourself for ?
      • captaincaveman 4y ago
        I'm not saying there shouldn't be flexibility, it's give and take, but there clearly should be some limits. So blanket advice of change what your doing to satisfy all minor complaints isn't great advice in my opinion.
  • AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    This is easy to get wrong. She says "X bugs me". But to me, X should not have been a big deal, so it doesn't register with me. Maybe she says it again, and I still think it's no big deal. Finally we reach the point where she's crying, and she tells me "X really bothers me". And I realize: "Oh, yeah, she's told me that before..." So, you know, be smarter than I've been. When she says that something bugs her, don't filter her statement through what bugs you or through what you expect to bug people. Instead, listen.
    • ay 4y ago
      If a person says something bugs them and you don’t react it is a reflection of you not caring about what they are feeling. Repeated non-reaction: mightily so. Saying “i love you” is easy. Making these little sacrifices on your ego that show the other person you care about them can be much harder, but shows your feelings much more. However: there must always remain a perception of fairness in the relationship. I am very intentionally not saying “the equal amount of sacrifice” because the dynamics are different for everyone.
• meerperson 4y ago
  This seems like a one-sided stopgap to a problem that is undoubtedly two-sided and it sets a precedent for [the author's definition of] respect that cannot be maintained indefinitely. For example, what if you were just about to put the glass in the dishwasher but the doorbell rings? The only settings that come to mind where this level of "adherence" is maintained are prisons or abusive households where everyone is in fear of punishment, and where punishments can even be handed out by the warden for no reason at all.
  • strikelaserclaw 4y ago
    This is why a husband and wife should share a core value system otherwise one person would sacrifice their values for the other and that also ends up with resentment.
  • ceejayoz 4y ago
    > This seems like a one-sided stopgap to a problem that is undoubtedly two-sided and it sets a precedent for [the author's definition of] respect that cannot be maintained indefinitely. I don't know that it's one-sided. The author may have asked their spouse to similarly adjust behavior in various ways; if they were amenable to that, but didn't get a corresponding response on their own pet peeves, that'd be an imbalance that'd stew over time. > For example, what if you were just about to put the glass in the dishwasher but the doorbell rings? Doing it very occasionally and doing it all the time are likely to have substantially different impacts on the spouse.
    • InfiniteRand 4y ago
      You're right, frequency matters. I also think it matters that he reacted defensively (at least that's how I read the essay), rather that just saying, "Okay, sure" and putting the glass in the dishwasher. It's a token response that doesn't really mean much, but it's a token that shows some consideration. I think that's why a workaround solution like putting the glass on a counter out-of-sight would also be helpful. It's not that the workaround necessarily improves anything from his wife's perspective (the glass still needs to be cleaned) but it shows some effort.
• axilmar 4y ago
  The problem in the case mentioned in the article was not with the writer that left the glass by the sink, it's with the other person that was bothered with something so minor...usually these minor things are excuses that cover deeper problems. Above all, marriage is a series of compromises: you give up something for something else. You can't have it all. Personally, I put up with my wife's problematic-for-me but not-for-her small habits, because we have a family and the well being of us and our children is priority. Loving the other person includes giving them room to breath, and chasing them after their small habits is suffocating...
  • jugg1es 4y ago
    Isn't that what the author is saying? The deeper problem was that the wife felt that the authors' inability to do something so simple for her sake was indicative of disrespect. Not acknowledging that your partner is worth a couple seconds of consideration is a pretty deep problem. The author probably demonstrated this disrespect in multiple ways, but the glass by the sink is a succinct way of summarizing the whole problem.
    • bachmeier 4y ago
      To be completely honest, I got the point, but I don't think this is good writing. Did anyone learn anything from the article? Probably not. Did anyone do any deeper thinking because of the article? Probably not.
      • igetspam 4y ago
        I did some reflection. I agree it's not a great article but I read it and did a self assessment. I don't ever want my marriage to end and people sharing their failures gives me another thing to consider, in hopes that I can avoid a similar outcome.
    • mistrial9 4y ago
      for some relationships, this is a signal of animal dominance basically.. "do it my way, because I say so" happens every day
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• DanHulton 4y ago
  There is a whole other potential article out there that could be written from the ex-wife's side - "My marriage died because I couldn't make this one simple sacrifice". And I suspect both would just as incorrect, at least by omission. The glass thing is a useful article hook, but it's unlikely that it encompasses the sole reason their marriage fell apart. There is a deeper issue here, about neither side being willing to sacrifice for the other that likely really lies at fault. I like the idea that a really good relationship is a 60/40 compromise, where both sides are struggling to be the 60. It sounds like both sides of this marriage were struggling to be the 40.
  • thesuitonym 4y ago
    That was the bulk of the article... The glass wasn't the problem, it was indicative of greater problems. The author even says ``A dish by the sink in no way feels painful or disrespectful to a spouse who wakes up every day and experiences a marriage partner who communicates in both word and action how important and cherished their spouse and relationship are.'' They had communication issues, but it wasn't anything huge, it was all small cuts like the glass by the sink, or the socks casually left at the foot of the bed, letting the trash bin overfill... All these little things that display a casual air of thoughtlessness.
  • Dobbs 4y ago
    This isn't about the dishes. The dishes are just a symptom of the unequal divide of emotional labour in most relationships. Even in relationships where both parents work full time more often than not the majority of the mental and physical burden of running the house tends to fall onto the woman. Of course this isn't an absolute, but it does tend to hold true. You can see this at the outbreak of COVID where many women had to step back from jobs because they suddenly had a massively increased load of child care that by default fell onto their shoulders. The article is about someone coming to the realization of the ugly situation they are putting their spouse into, one that is extremely common. Don't try and devalue that by turning it into a "both sides" debacle.
    • em500 4y ago
      The marriage lesson that I learned, not too late, is to hire domestic help pretty much as soon as we could afford it.
• jayski 4y ago
  Im 99% sure the wife in this story used the glass as an excuse to get out. If youre happy with the life youve built together and love your partner theres no way you leave it over something like this. I dont buy the "it shows disrespect" argument. Shes going to be with somebody else in a years time. But when youre in a bad situation and the other person isn't giving you a good reason to leave sometimes you have to get creative. Ive done it, and its been done to me.
  • treis 4y ago
    Projecting a lot, I feel like this guy is just a narcissist. Kind of making it all about him but in a way that doesn't portray him in a truly negative light. Also, guessing his ex-wife probably doesn't want a book about her divorce to be part of the national chatter.
    • agota 4y ago
      That's my question: Did this guy's ex-wife agree to be a subject of a blog, articles in major publications, and a book??
    • raydev 4y ago
      Looks like you didn't read the article in full?
      • treis 4y ago
        I did. Is there a particular point you're trying to make here?
        • raydev 4y ago
          He explicitly talks about his failures at the end. I don't think a narcissist would get that far. Although you did say you're projecting, so maybe this is not useful.
          • 4y ago
• throw93232 4y ago
  The Marriage Lesson today is not to get married.
  • smegsicle 4y ago
    women are strong enough to fend for themselves, everyone knows marriage was just a crutch to keep them complacent
• snvzz 4y ago
  I'm surprised nobody is questioning the decision of marriage. It is a really bad deal.
• hackeraccount 4y ago
  Marriage is like kids. What does it expect? Blood. I remember a guy who planned to join the Marines when I was a kid. Every time I saw him he was doing push-ups. All the time. A neighbor - who was ex-military or maybe even a Marine himself - told me that was all well and good but had limited utility. If you go can do 100 push-ups when you go through boot camp they'll make you do 110. They want blood.
  • greenonions 4y ago
    • dang 4y ago
      Please omit hostile swipes from your HN comments, even when another comment doesn't make sense or feels off somehow. The swipe aspect only makes everything worse. You can express your question in a more open-minded way. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  Oh god... who will tell him? She leave him by anything but that. That was the tip of the iceberg in a big comfort zone. Details do matter, in that point the author is right but the article is a huge expression of rationalization to cover up deeper issues. If she would be happy to have him, do you think she would f* care about dishes? She would be proactive and happy to help by cleaning that herself. And offering to cook and more. Sorry but the text is not defensible in any possible angle. That publication is nothing but a glorification of superficiality disguised as an allegedly clever insight.
  • hello_popppet 4y ago
• chacham15 4y ago
  > I now understand that when I left that glass there, it hurt my wife—literally causing pain—because it felt to her as if I had just said, “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.” I think that here lies the issue. Is this the only way that you show that you value their thoughts / opinions? If so, the problem was never with the cups. If not, then this is how you comfort / reassure your partner and not "lets agree to disagree." From that place you have a conversation where you both figure out how to best make the both of you happy. E.g. "we'll get a special/specific cup which looks like it belongs in this area and you can leave it here as long as its empty and only use that cup." There are always various compromises that can be made as long as you have that conversation and are both looking for the best for each other.
  • Dobbs 4y ago
    It isn't just about respect. It is about you leaving work for your partner to do even though you could have done it yourself. This is about emotional labour and the uneven divide of household jobs.
    • mason55 4y ago
      There's a whole spectrum, from misalignment on the proper state of the house, to the feelings of respect, to the increase in household jobs for the other partner. If the husband puts his cup by the sink at night, then picks it back up again in the morning, and finally after a few days it ends up in the dishwasher, then you'll never convince him that it's mismatched emotional labor, because in his eyes the cup didn't need to be put away. If you try to tell him that it's not fair for her to put his cup in the dishwasher every night and his response is "I was going to use the cup again tomorrow" then the conversation will never make any progress. No one is right or wrong in a conversation about whether it's ok to put your cup by the sink at night and then pick it up again the next day. It's just one of those things in marriage that you need to agree on how it will be, based on effort vs. how much one partner is bothered. And then stick to the agreement while giving your partner some occasional leeway.
    • 4y ago
• tra3 4y ago
  Me and my wife set aside about half an hour each week to "check in". I hate to compare it to a stand up, but it's kinda what it is. The goal is to focus 100% on each other and talk about the week and do some sort of a "marriage exercise". It's been immensely helpful to take the "temperature" of my spouse and our relationship. This week, I've been reading "How we love" [0]. I'm only on the first chapter, but it has resonated with me: > Every marriage has nagging problems calling for our attention. Many people end up thinking their relationship is difficult because they married the wrong person. But the fact that many people are on to their second and third marriages proves that no marriage is tension free. Sometimes our marriages seem to run fairly smoothly—until we hit a crisis or face difficult circumstances. Stress always makes underlying problems more apparent. The authors talk about "core behaviours" (such as leaving the glasses by the sink in the article) that trigger conflict in a relationship: > A core pattern is the predicable way you and your spouse react to each other that leaves each of you frustrated and dissatisfied. Some are married a few years before it is apparent, but sooner or later couples can readily identify the same old place where they get stuck. Maybe it’s the same complaints that come up again and again without ever getting resolved or a familiar pattern of fighting, no matter what the topic. They then tie in your behaviours to how you were treated in childhood and I believe (I haven't gotten there yet) help you understand? alleviate? the sources of conflict. > Marriage is the most challenging relationship you will ever have, and to think otherwise is to live in denial. When you are with someone day in and day out, you can’t hide. Your weaknesses become quite visible, and old feelings from the distant past are stirred. The physical nearness of your mate triggers old feelings as you look to him or her to meet many of the needs your parents were originally supposed to meet. [0] https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Love-Expanded-Discover/dp/0735290172 https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Love-Expanded-Discover/dp/0735...
• NortySpock 4y ago
  "Is this hill worth dieing on?" is a question I occasionally ask myself. Other ways to put it: "Would taking 10 seconds to do this now make my wife 1% less stressed?" (If so, do the thing to make her less stressed.) "Is it worth starting a fight vs spending the same time just fixing the problem?" "Would spending $COST_OF_THING make my wife happy for a day / make a fond memory of us together?" (Hence why I encourage my thrifty wife to spend a bit of money on semiprecious jewelry or clothes for herself that she enjoys) "If I cheap out on $COMMMONLY_USED_ITEM, will my wife and I be annoyed by its limitations / bad user experience for years?" Granted, I am fortunate to be able to pay the bills and have a little extra for the occasional splurge for my wife. And my wife is kind and understanding and I love her dearly. But I learned long ago that doing a little bit extra / spending a bit more for a quality item pays dividends in reducing friction and annoyances daily. Those daily annoyances add up over time, and not in a good way. Make yourself aware of them, and then fix them. Cut down on stressors so you can spend more mental bandwidth on your wife and kids.
  • LegitShady 4y ago
    > "Would taking 10 seconds to do this now make my wife 1% less stressed?" An addition to this unrelated to marriage - if it takes 10 seconds, why isn't it already done instead of considering whether to do it or not? I have a personal rule that unless I have another issue that requires attention right now (like working from home being work time, etc) If it take 5 minutes or less to do it I just do it right away and never let myself say 'I'll do it later' because 1/2 the time you don't do it later, and its easier to just finish it right away and never worry about it again. Dishwasher finish? It takes 3 minutes to put away the dishes. Now your dishwasher is empty so it takes 5 seconds to put away dirty dishes. Dishwasher full? take 20 seconds to put in some detergent and get it started. 3 minutes + 10 seconds means you never have to deal with dirty dishes on the counter or in the sink.
    • jeffrallen 4y ago
      The other day my wife said, "Ugh, I hate it when you run the dishwasher during the day, because then I have to empty it before filling it." Sometimes you cannot win. But it's still a game worth playing: being married is the best thing that ever happened to me.
• BeetleB 4y ago
  If this couple went to a marriage counselor, the counselor is not going to say "You're going to lose your marriage because you continue to leave dishes by the sink". Instead, (s)he will say "You're going to lose your marriage because of poor communication - she can't communicate what is bothering her, and he doesn't have the communication skills to make it easy for her to communicate it." If you've read pretty much any book on communications (not limited to relationships), they'll have an example similar to this. And they never suggest "compromise" as a solution (at least not until you break through the communication problem). This is literally a "textbook" communication problem.
  • watwut 4y ago
    I understood the article as saying that she was communicating her issues, but he considered them minor, nagging and unimportant difference of opinion. Therefore, he never treated them seriously, whether by actually changing or by actually arguing back. Basically, he dismissed it instead of taking it as issue. Here is quote from the article: "Hundreds, maybe thousands of times, my wife tried to communicate that something was wrong."
    • BeetleB 4y ago
      > I understood the article as saying that she was communicating her issues She wasn't. She was at best hinting - again, something pretty much every communications book says not to do. > "Hundreds, maybe thousands of times, my wife tried to communicate that something was wrong." He doesn't go into details, but it's usually one of two things: 1. Nagging over what seems to be minor issues, and he is supposed to realize that there are deeper issues underlying. 2. Saying explicitly that something was wrong, but not saying what. In both cases, she is lacking the communication skills to say what is wrong, and he is lacking the communication skills to make the path easier for her to say it. He says this: > The reason my marriage fell apart seems absurd when I describe it: My wife left me because sometimes I leave dishes by the sink. The question is, how does she describe it to her friends? I doubt she says "I left my husband because he sometimes leaves dishes by the sink." And did she articulate that to him before it was too late?
• locallost 4y ago
  Heh, I told my wife today that our first big fight was because she couldn't for two years throw away lemons instead of leaving them on the counter to collect fruit flies. As with the glass, it wasn't about the lemons, but something deeper. What that is, is really dependant on the person and even the relationship. In my / our case it was about me being very laid back and if somebody asked me to do something, and it was no big deal, I'd just do it. And the ratio of things she asked me vs vice versa was about 10:1. So when she couldn't do that one thing I asked her, and I really hate those flies, it eventually blew up.
• erik_landerholm 4y ago
  Been married for 20 years almost…we never fight. We both do things that aren’t optimal, but we give each other the benefit of the doubt, we talk about everything, we don’t step on each other’s areas of responsibility, we don’t speak harshly to each other and we are best friends. I can’t ever imagine being in a the situation described above. I mean all the individual things happen to us leaving dishes, muddy whatever (we have 5 kids…so the noise alone), but so what? It’s all in how you both handle everything. We’ve never found it hard to exist together. I think the biggest thing is we never speak harshly to each other. If we aren’t exactly kind we apologize, but we never speak to each other or our children in ways I hear others do all the time. That is the love killer.
  • xtracto 4y ago
    I love seeing elderly couples. If you get into the house of old folks couples that have been married for 30 or 40 years the "peacefulness" you perceive in their relationship is great. They have learned that nothing really matters. A broken glass? some mud in the house? a stack of books/magazines in the floor? Who freaking cares? They have each other and they have had each other for 30+ years and they have each other until they die.
  • A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    7 years here ( we lived together for a few more ). We do fight, but it appears to be on a semi-annual basis since we do talk about what bugs us about the other person fairly openly ( there is a fine line being truthful and hurtful ). The simple reality is that I genuinely have a hard time accepting existence without her around. Since that is the case, some things have to be ignored for the sake of 'peace at home'. It goes both ways. I myself am not perfect.
  • Ishmaeli 4y ago
    Same. 23 years and I don't mention it often because it feels like bragging, and we certainly didn't do anything to "earn" our relationship. I think it was just dumb luck that we fell into it and happen to be so compatible along so many lines. But it always baffles us whenever we spend time with another couple (including our own parents) and they are so short with each other. As you say, harsh. We come away from those gatherings wondering, is this really how people live? Seems to be.
• bena 4y ago
  I get the point of the article and I agree with the overall conclusion, but I don't agree that it applies in the example he provided. If you are going to go to war over something, make sure it is worthy of doing so. In his example: what is the harm in the drinking glass being there? Is it occupying space of others? Is it preventing others from doing something? Is it a burden on anyone? Or is it an aesthetic choice? If it's an aesthetic choice, you need to get over it. We have a fairly open house plan. There aren't many choke points. Except one. There's a corner of a wall that is about 5 to 7 feet from the corner of a kitchen island. If you are coming in from the side door, it is the one place you have to cross to get to the rest of the house. Almost every day, my wife will park her rolling bookcase right there. Conversely, she's pretty lax on where she leaves her dirty laundry. But it's confined to the area beside her side of the bed and it doesn't encroach beyond that. I can't really stand having all that about. My clothes go straight into a hamper. But we both mostly do our own laundry, her getting her clothes off the floor is mostly an aesthetic choice. I let her live her life in that regard. "Leaving the glass on the counter is disrespectful to me" is kind of a toxic mindset. It kind of says "You must conform to my ideas of acceptable behavior". It's a bit controlling.
  • em-bee 4y ago
    the example is irrelevant, what matters is how he reacted to it. instead of working with her on a solution he preferred to agree to disagree
• MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  "My wife left me because she's either ridiculous and unwilling to compromise on trivial shit, or incomprehensibly dense" is a much shorter and more succinct than an entire book, but I guess they don't pay people for that. His articles all read as pathetic blame-porn aimed at satisfying the egos of women, while pretending to be advice aimed at men, and even though his only skills are apparently being someone who got divorced and wrote a book about what he believes to be his failings, somehow that qualifies him for paid counseling sessions? "I blew my hand off with a firecracker and that makes me an explosives expert, buy my book" is a suitable parallel here. Yes, I know, it wasn't "just" the dishes. Neither of them actually wanted to be married to each other, they just wanted a live-in sex partner.
  • greenonions 4y ago
    Maybe this is too personal, but is your relationship with your partner strong? Frankly, my guess, just by your attitude towards this innocuous article, is no.
    • MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      It's not an innocuous article. He's literally tried to build a career out of being divorced. Know why my relationship with my SO is better than yours? Because we talk like actual human beings, compromise, don't fight over trivial bullshit, respect each other and their spaces, and don't always have to be right because it's a partnership not a dictatorship. Maybe try that out, see how basic common sense works for you.
  • em-bee 4y ago
    the problem wasn't the dishes or any other issue. the problem was that he preferred to agree to disagree instead of coming to a compromise. that's pretty dismissive. that doesn't mean it's all his fault, but we don't know what her attempts to resolve the issue were.
    • MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      This might come as a shock, but compromise isn't simply "doing what she wants you to do, when she wants you to do it." That's not a relationship. This wasn't a pile of dirty dishes. It was a drinking glass that was going to be reused. Maybe she comes from an upper-middle to upper class household where everything got put away at all times, but where I come from, you don't waste dishwater on something you're going to reuse anyway. It's one thing if they pile up. It's quite another if there's a cup or two on the counter that you are using.
• amznbyebyebye 4y ago
  There’s always going to be a glass issue. Communicating the issue, being open to listening, knowing what to let go and what matters is what makes or breaks things. There’s no algorithm to this, relationships are founded on love, which is an emotion that has little to do with intellect or logic. So for these things ultimately love is the answer.
• idkwhoiam 4y ago
  I made a decision to not get married because I don't want these kind of problems and drama in my life. Also, depending on your country of residence, marriage is probably the worst deal in your life.
• raldi 4y ago
  This sounds to me more like a symptom, and the underlying pathology is that this person gave insufficient consideration to all the little concessions his partner was making on the things that matter to him, and was certainly not expressing gratitude for them.
• pshc 4y ago
  https://archive.ph/t3m62 https://archive.ph/t3m62
• erikstarck 4y ago
  If you haven't read "The Five Love Languages" yet and are in a relationship, then I highly suggest you do. It might save it before it's too late. And just to make this slightly more startup-related as well: as team members, we also have "love languages", ways we communicate respect and appreciation to each other. Sometimes we speak different languages and don't understand each other. That breaks the team.
  • bena 4y ago
    I'd recommend people don't. Mostly because people read stuff like that and extrospect rather than introspect. "How can I get my partner to speak my love language?" rather than "What is my partner's love language?" Everything becomes another tool of manipulation. "My love language is 'acts of service', so if you don't take out the trash, you don't love me." That's just straight up emotional manipulation. Whereas it should be "My husband prepares my coffee and oats every morning. This is how he shows he loves me." In the first, it's all about how one can use a concept to get what you want. In the second, it's about recognizing what's already being given and what it means. There should be a rule, where you can learn about this and other concepts, but you are never allowed to talk about it with people you have a relationship with.
    • jrm4 4y ago
      I agree with both the op AND this criticism. It's a pretty good tool in a relationship toolbox -- and also this definitely happens. Just don't treat it as gospel.
    • em-bee 4y ago
      if someone is using love as a tool for emotional manipulation they will be doing that already before they read the book. at best the book helps them to come up with that phrase. but not reading it won't prevent them from doing it. on the contrary, if you both read the book together then you will both become aware that this is happening and you can do something about it. There should be a rule, where you can learn about this and other concepts, but you are never allowed to talk about it with people you have a relationship with. that sounds just about like the worst idea i have read in this whole thread today. it is exactly the not talking about these concepts that will enable the manipulation that you fear. to avoid manipulation you need to have this knowledge out in the open.
• dkersten 4y ago
  I once saw the marriage advice that everybody, no matter how great their relationship is, should meet with a marriage/relationship counsellor on a regular basis, because, that way, any issues the two of you may have gets dealt with while its still a small thing and is never given a chance to turn into a big deal. Doing it with a counsellor means you have a safe space with someone who knows how to deal with issue during which you can work out problems, before they turn into real problems. I'm not married, so I dunno if it works, but it sure sounds like sensible advice at least.
  • Arubis 4y ago
    If you're resourced enough to have access, this is great advice. It's like doing regular maintenance: you might be able to do it yourself, but bringing in a professional is a good idea.
    • dkersten 4y ago
      > If you're resourced enough to have access Ah, yes, of course. If you can't afford to do it then you can't afford to do it, although I wonder, given the high rate of divorce, if a session every so often wouldn't still be cheaper in the long run even for people who maybe can't afford to do it every other month. > It's like doing regular maintenance: you might be able to do it yourself, but bringing in a professional is a good idea. That's a great way of putting it.
• throwaway881818 4y ago
  What a painful article. Reminds me of my relationship with my mother living with her as an adult because I got very sick. She would fight tooth and nail for an apology over things like this. Even if it was a minor thing that only happened once. In the end, she would consistently make me feel like a horrible person even though I _did_ contribute to helping in the house, if not perfectly. My emotional hurt was never accepted as valid, but anything that would trigger my mom was considered huge. It felt so one-sided. I was eventually asked to leave my parents house. As a single guy with health issues that make getting by tough, the sort of relationships issues described in this article makes me despair about ever getting married, even though it is something I'd very much like.
  • em-bee 4y ago
    you can talk about this with your partner before getting married. it could even be worth it for both of you to talk to a marriage counselor before getting married. if you are open about your experience and your worries for your relationship you will be able to find an understanding partner.
• notacoward 4y ago
  My wife and I wrote our own marriage vows. The first two were pretty conventional (stay together, share joys and sorrows). The third was the most important IMO and also hardest to keep. "Treat each other's needs and priorities as equal to our own" If you don't think it's hard, try it. I don't mean just respecting each other's time and attention in a general sense, which BTW I've come to believe is a good rule for all interactions. I mean treating their habits and preferences and pet peeves, no matter how silly they seem to you, as seriously as your own. Also, no double standards anywhere in your life together. No matter how exhausted or aggravated you are yourself at that moment. Consistently doing that takes a lot more self discipline than most people have. I can't say we've always succeeded, but after 26 years I'd say it has been worth the effort. N.B. I'm not saying you shouldn't have your own preferences and habits and pet peeves. I'm totally not into that "become one person" thing; my wife and I are in fact pretty notoriously independent and happy to do our own separate things e.g. at social gatherings. There will be conflicts between your priorities and theirs. I'm just saying that those conflicts should be resolved starting from a position of equality.
  • em-bee 4y ago
    "Treat each other's needs and priorities as equal to our own" i'd go a step further and say that we each are responsible for each others needs and priorities. at least the important ones. my job is to enable and support your needs and priorities, and your job is to enable and support mine. your needs are actually more important than my own. this of course only works if we both understand, agree and respect on what each others needs and priorities are. which requires open communication. because if you take advantage of me fulfilling your needs while you ignore my needs then the relationship will fail.
    • notacoward 4y ago
      Can't sign on with that. Subordinating one's own desires to the other or to the relationship like that isn't healthy, even if it's mutual, and I'm pretty sure my own marriage wouldn't have lasted this long if either of us had tried it. "Two servants" doesn't work. I think O. Henry even wrote a story about where it leads, and can lead even with the best of communication. Consciously or no, sooner or later one person will demand more and - lacking any directive that would pull things back into balance - you'll have an unequal relationship. IMO treating each other's needs as exactly equal, no less but also no more, does provide the necessary pull toward the center and thus is more sustainable long term.
• jelliclesfarm 4y ago
  I would walk away too. It is not about the glass. It is about ‘not being heard’. It is highly disrespectful. It is about his upbringing and a peek into his entire attitude towards others. It is also about his parents marriage or other marriages he has witnessed..and how he is trying to mimic it..because that’s what children do..internalize and imprint what they witness. I am reminded of Philip Larkin’s “This Be The Verse”. I don’t give marriage advice to young girls, but if I were to..I would tell them to run..not walk away..if the potential mate cannot clean up after themselves. To me, it’s a ginormous red flag if a full grown adult is messy..can’t make the bed..doesn’t pick up after themselves, leaves dirty dishes all around. There is also a cultural caveat to this. I am Indian and boys are coddled more than girls(in my generation). A man who cannot take care of his mess screams mommy issues. There are other cultures too where boys are more prized than girls. I suspect it is not so much in the west. It seems like all kids here are raised by the state in public schools. I have some other thoughts but it’s best I keep them to myself. My first thought was to suggest that no one should be taking marriage lessons from someone whose marriage has failed. The author includes himself as well when he says ‘this is how well intentioned people fall apart’. That is laughable to me. This is a passive aggressive dude who shouldn’t be married in the first place. She was honest in expressing her expectation and he wasn’t. My second thought is that all marriages are short lived. When children are born, couples become child rearing partners. These partnerships last as long as the children are alive and mostly children outlive the parents. Many marriages fray when parents become empty nesters or when tragedy strikes. And this is absolutely natural and necessary for sanity of human beings. The expectation of long perpetual marriages until death do them apart is macabre and the seed for future co dependency issues. Renegotiating marriage terms every 3-5 years is the one of the ways to maintain healthy marriage partnerships. Marriages(long partnerships) and monogamy are not compatible with human nature. If that’s the desired outcome, there has to be an external force acting upon it continually to maintain integrity. As far as ‘the little things’ are concerned, it is no different from what one may experience with room mates. I would recommend putting everything in writing and if possible, have separate rooms and/or bathrooms plus a shared bedroom. But that doesn’t make marriages natural either. Long successful marriages are not one long partnership..it is a series of multiple short term contracts negotiated between partners.
• saturdaysaint 4y ago
  I see the relationship coaches of this stripe all over all sorts of social media, and I just rarely if ever see insights that couldn't have been imparted by your average friendly stranger at a bar. What I mostly see are slightly-to-moderately damaged people who are articulate and engaging enough to find an audience of similarly damaged people who their experiences resonate with. This guy seems fairly innocuous (although this kind of rumination can also be unproductive!) but you see a lot of people fomenting bitterness. I would advise anyone I cared about to seek a credentialed therapist before turning to one of these self-appointed coaches.
• deleted 4y ago
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• perpetuummobile 4y ago
  I struggle with this myself. At the risk of sounding misogynistic: How come it’s always women who can’t deal with these “minor irritations”? I’ve never heard from any of my male friends complaining in this tack.
  • perpetuummobile 4y ago
    Feel free to downvote but please tell me why I am wrong. I legitimately struggle with this as is obviously clear from my tone.
    • AlwaysRock 4y ago
      You're wrong because you've bucketed half the global population either because of your blissful ignorance or because your personal anecdotal, likely very limited data and sample size, supports your belief.
      • perpetuummobile 4y ago
        I’m sorry but I’m not blissful about it. Women bad ha ha… not. What else do I have to go by than my own personal experience? Self help book? You have no idea what weight my sample has given the constant emotional and physical abuse I have to deal with.
        • AlwaysRock 4y ago
          You asked to be pointed out where you are wrong, and then you argued with the responses given.
      • khazhoux 4y ago
        I think at some point in their lives, people are entitled, just maybe, to draw from their own personal experiences in the course of conversation. Just about every one of the 600 comments on this post are people sharing their personal experience (their dreadfully non-scientific anecdotes!). Here, the commenter is saying it's their experience that women are more easily annoyed by "little things." Perhaps you've had the opposite experience, where your male friends complain non-stop about their female partner's annoying little habits?
• nbevans 4y ago
  One wonders why he didn't just get a dishwasher machine... Very cheap solution compared to divorce!
  • AlwaysRock 4y ago
    I think you're being glib but the article mentions a dishwasher.
• m3kw9 4y ago
  “ My wife left me because sometimes I leave dishes by the sink.” can easily spiral out to “you don’t give a sht about my feelings, I’m not heard even for little things requested constantly” and then it amplifies other little dismissed requests which all come together and builds up from a mole hill to a mountian
• jrm4 4y ago
  I'd suppose the thing I'd warn here: Remember that, by definition, this article was written by a failure -- meaning that the likelihood that they fully understand the situation even now is still pretty low; especially since they're still likely in a sense seeking validation by writing the article. Ideally, you'd like to hear from a success. And at the risk being the horn-tooter, (married for 15+ years), when I read this I'm like "sigh, okay, where to begin..." (As in, I can't even respond to it directly; I'd have to be like, "no, ask me a precise question and I'll see if I can answer it to the best of my ability.)
  • captaincaveman 4y ago
    hmmm marriages fail after 15 years too, at what point do you declare success?
    • jrm4 4y ago
      Sure, good point -- but I'd guess that there's something like; the earlier the marriage fails, the more likely it's a "correctable behavior or habit" thing, as opposed to something like fundamental like "someone was getting their own identity wrong," or "deeply dramatic external change in circumstances?"
    • khazhoux 4y ago
      It's not symmetric. Success is a constant work-in-progress.
    • zild3d 4y ago
      I wonder if the lindy effect applies to marriages? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
  • elptacek 4y ago
    I'll bite. We're coming up on our 24th anniversary. I will likely regret this, but this is what I have learned. 1. Misery is a function of expectations management. As is said, every relationship is different. Expectations could range everywhere from "You are an adult and this is your house, too. Clean up after yourself like an adult who owns a house." to what is common in our house, "Housework gets done when it gets done. Fortunately we live in an area that doesn't have roaches." It is notable that the author does little more than speculate on his wife's expectations. After that many disagreements, not fully understanding the other person's expectations is a big red flag. We can argue all day long as to whose responsibility the understanding is; that is also a big red flag. 2. It's not about the work you do, it's about the work you make. This one is a big deal to me, since I grew up in a family that expected me to clean up after them. All the laundry, dishes, yard and additional housework was my job starting when I was 10. And no matter how well or poorly I did, chances were high that I was going to get hit for something. Note that the author does not provide any of this context. His wife very well may have been looking forward to spending the rest of her life with a partner who was an adult who didn't leave crap laying around, knowing that it would somehow magically reappear clean in its designated storage location. Or she could just be uptight. 3. No relationship of any kind is fire and forget. It is a daily commitment to a complicated matrix of rules and accommodations, all of which has a cost. If a person does the cost/benefit analysis of doing this work and decides it's not worth it, hurt feelings and financial implications aside, it's not worth it. This is not only true of marriages, it's also the case for friendships, family, employers and coworkers. We're making hundreds of these calculations every day. It's a thing we do to feel safe. When the benefit does not outweigh the cost, you don't feel safe. That's bad for everyone's health. 4. It takes 5 positive experiences of someone to reconcile one negative one. I think I read another comment that was adjacent to this. I see this as sort of an economy of deposits and withdrawals, and that's not a particularly original analogy. At the end of the day, we are social animals; both small and large gestures of allegiance foster an environment of safety and comfort. Our lizard brain needs these things. 5. Capuchin monkeys prefer grapes. Fairness is a reflex. It is not rational and does not respond to logic. Though I can respect, "I might want to use it again."
• petermcneeley 4y ago
  I thought the marriage vows were "till death do us part".
  • smegsicle 4y ago
    it's a vow before god not an eula people
  • PortiaBerries 4y ago
  • brewdad 4y ago
    When the next time a glass is left out you can see yourself murdering your partner, it's ok to get out before that event actually occurs.
• pdimitar 4y ago
  It always bothers me when people try to frame a relationship as almost a work arrangement, and discuss it as a transaction that needs to be optimized. That sounds so cold. Marriage / long relationships absolutely do need some compromise, that is an universal fact. There are some things you just have to outgrow and admit that your strong stance on them is not at all important. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I didn't feel that to be a sacrifice. It did, and still does, feel like I grew as a person. Another fact: never go to bed grumpy with your partner. And I really do mean NEVER as in "no but-s". Doesn't matter if you haven't slept in 50 hours and did 4 shifts back-to-back and now want to die. No. Go get coffee and water and start talking until you work it out. Never let negative emotions towards the relationship grow inside each of you. Never skip important talks. That is what is I think most important in relationships. Is that what most people mean when they say "marriage is work from both sides"? I hope so because if not then their definition sounds awfully depressing. But to me it's not work at all; I love my woman and would throw myself in front of a speeding truck to protect her. Having to communicate extra when we disagree on something does not feel like a sacrifice at all. It feels like investing in the relationship to continue thriving. It doesn't feel like removing harmful weeds from your garden (chore); to me it feels like putting even better soil nutrients and richer water on the plants (nurture). It's chore vs. nurture; to me it feels like the latter. Sometimes it's both at the same time. As some other commenters alluded to, don't look for a "perfect" partner in the sense of your own bias about what is "perfect". Life and people have millions of ways to surprise you positively. Let some more chaos and randomness in your life and you will be left flabbergasted why didn't you do it sooner.
• phnofive 4y ago
  The lesson: "There is only one reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink, and it’s a lesson I learned much too late: because I love and respect my partner, and it really matters to them." Others have pointed out the corollary - that you can choose to accept behavior as well as modify your own - but this too seems fairly indispensable for a long term partnership.
• kstenerud 4y ago
  I've been through a shitty marriage that ended badly. I divorced her, vowing to never get married again. Many many years later, I married a woman who had been through decades of horrible long term relationships (including one where he pointed a shotgun at her), and vowed to never ever get married. We both decided to take another chance at it, agreeing that in our marriage we would communicate everything as soon as possible. In the years since, we've had two cases of harsh words: One where she repeatedly did something that upset me and I said nothing about it, until finally I blew up at her one day. Another, where she'd been under extreme stress and blew up at me (yeah, we can be embarrassingly dumb, but hey, we're human). And besides that, not so much as a disparaging remark. We're together 24/7, never spending more than an hour or two apart (we're both home all day). We'll probably end up becoming one of those cute old couples who still hold hands at 80. We make a point of never communicating in a blame-like way. I.E. "Please can you find a way to avoid doing X? I know it might not make sense why but it drives me nuts." or "When you do X, it makes me feel like Y. Can we find something else that works for both of us?" These turn into discussions to drill down into exactly where the problem lies, and then figuring out what changes we can make (one, the other, or usually both) to make things work better. It's a constant process. We're all human, and we all have our quirks. They're not logical, but yet they exist and we can't change them. Being in a relationship is about empathy and communication. You're a team, so you really need to figure out how you can maximize your collective power. When people say "It's about sacrifice", they're half-right. It's not about pushing yourself into smaller and smaller boxes to accommodate their large footprint. It's about making some sacrifices or changes to work around the quirks that the other person can't change (CAN'T, not won't). You support your partner where they have weaknesses, and you build up their strengths. Even if you look at it from a purely mercenary point-of-view, this makes sense. Morale is vitally important. People have their down days, and you really need to be attentive to that. It's on you to see them through the down times and make sure they come out the other side okay. Note: I'm not talking about "cheering them up" (although that is sometimes a valid strategy); I'm talking about validation of their feelings. I'm talking about being there, in solidarity with them in their dark times, even if there's nothing else you can do to help. It's also important to celebrate their triumphs, and in general just let them know how much you appreciate them. Being in a team (I mean REALLY in a team) is about being attentive to each others' needs, strengths, fears, and demonstrating to them that you have their back, no matter what. If you can't trust your teammates implicitly, you're not a real team.
• mihaic 4y ago
  One big issue I rarely see mentioned is how much worse modern society is for long-term couples, in many ways. While this doesn't give us any direct actionable advice, accepting it reframes the struggle of the couple against the world instead of just the classic "work on yourself", and that can lead to better cooperation. Some other things being harder before ironically maybe us better at accepting that sometimes situations end with nobody getting what they want, and learning how to reach "good enough".
• nineteen999 4y ago
  Two people too stupid to invest in a dishwasher, and to get on with life.
• epicureanideal 4y ago
  The most important marriage lesson is: don’t get married. The person you marry is not the person you divorce. You can lose a huge amount of money battling it out even if YOU bend over backwards to be reasonable. If you want to flip a coin to see if you lose ten years of earnings, then marriage is for you.
  • whateveracct 4y ago
    what a pitiable existence
    • epicureanideal 4y ago
      I’d be glad if everybody would help change the legal implications of the marriage contract, so that it would be safe and financially reasonable to get married. But that just isn’t the case currently.
      • whateveracct 4y ago
        Get a prenup if it's that important to you 50/50 is a reasonable default when there isn't a prenup. Marriage is a union of souls into one. When they split, 50/50 only makes sense. If you can't get that, then you have bigger blockers besides legal ramifications to getting married.
        • epicureanideal 4y ago
          50/50 asset split is far from the problem. Ongoing alimony after the split, excessive child support far beyond the cost of raising children , and huge legal costs to reach a slightly less terrible outcome are the problems. Not to mention the separation of fathers from children, but that often happens with or without an official marriage.
  • 62951413 4y ago
    It's factually correct though you need to replace "can" with "will", especially in states like CA. Make no mistake, the discrimination is systemic. So it's not just you who is unlucky and you won't find a loophole just because you're clever. And it's all fun and games until you're about 40. At which point a man needs a family to take care of. So it's the most existential catch 22 situation in your life. You cannot win but you have to play.
• rednerrus 4y ago
  I wonder what John Gottman would say? My guess is he would recommend something like this: https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-the-art-of-compromise/ https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-the-art-of-comp..., https://www.gottman.com/blog/two-views-every-conflict-valid/ https://www.gottman.com/blog/two-views-every-conflict-valid/, https://www.gottman.com/blog/for-better-or-for-worse-conflict-and-connecting-in-crisis/ https://www.gottman.com/blog/for-better-or-for-worse-conflic..., or https://www.gottman.com/blog/overcoming-gridlocked-conflict/ https://www.gottman.com/blog/overcoming-gridlocked-conflict/. This is surprisingly, to me at least, a mostly solved problem. When I started having conflicts with my wife over similar issues I dug into the research and found that most of this is surprisingly easy, in principle. In practice it's a lot harder but reading a handful of books goes a long way.
• charles_f 4y ago
  Laterally relevant, I once left a company for this exact reason. Tons of little things making life impossible - no way to push for your ideas, admin BS for no good reason, CEO wanting to be Steve J a bit too much, meetings at 8:30AM (with multiple kids, it's a challenge), a few bad apples, pixel-perfectness, etc. All stuff that, one by one wouldn't matter, but overall made my grind my teeth sufficiently for me to leave. It was very hard for me to explain well why I didn't enjoy work, as all these seemed trivial and unimportant and made me feel like a dick for leaving. Overall I think the underlying reason was that things were a certain way and there was no way of influencing them whatsoever. Looking back I think the problem was also partially with me not accepting smaller things ; but there is such a thing as death by a 1000 paper cuts.
• ricardobayes 4y ago
  At the same time, the argument could easily be flipped: if one person truly loves another, the let things like putting a glass besides the sink _slide_. It is accepting the other person, with their flaws. If you want to change another person, it's selfish. Furthest away from love as can be.
• andreyk 4y ago
  "Hundreds, maybe thousands of times, my wife tried to communicate that something was wrong. That something hurt. But that doesn’t make sense, I thought. I’m not trying to hurt her; therefore, she shouldn’t feel hurt. ... There is only one reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink, and it’s a lesson I learned much too late: because I love and respect my partner, and it really matters to them." wow.... this isn't a marriage lesson, it's a basic human etiquette lesson. Listen to what someone is telling you and try to see things from their perspective. At least the author does call out their own immaturity with respect to this: "I think I believed that my wife should respect me simply because I exchanged vows with her. It wouldn’t have been the first time I acted entitled. What I know for sure is that I had never connected putting a dish in the dishwasher with earning my wife’s respect."
  • cloudier 4y ago
    Exactly. If you intend to throw a ball to your dog but accidentally break a vase as a result, does your original intention absolve you from the consequences of your actions?
    • krona 4y ago
      As though the thoughts and feelings of another person are as predictable and consequential as the laws of physics. I wish.
      • cloudier 4y ago
        I agree that the thoughts and feelings of other people in general are difficult to predict. But a person you marry is often someone you spend a lot of time around and hence whose thoughts and feelings can be predicted to some extent - because you see them in different situations, then see their reactions and talk to them about their thoughts and feelings. In this specific case, the author denies that the consequences existed: > But that doesn’t make sense, I thought. I’m not trying to hurt her; therefore, she shouldn’t feel hurt.
        • 4y ago
• nineplay 4y ago
  I'm the messy one ( and the wife ) in our situation and this article has made me think about my relationship. My takeaway is that I can sit and pout that my partner shouldn't be overreacting to a glass and I can sit and pout and say why should I be the one to change, why can't he change. Or I can stay married. If I'm going to get caught up in my marriage being 'fair' I'm going to lose. There have to be times when I 'lose' because I give in and he doesn't. I have to trust that there will be times when he 'loses' because he's giving in when I don't. It's that trust that's important. Not each little niggling fight but a trust that the other person is going to value you over valuing some abstract concept of fair. If I show a willingness to overcome my preferences for his sake, then he's going to be more willing to overcome his preferences for my sake. It's easy to get stuck on fair but that turns hundreds of little things into battlegrounds. If I trust that he's a loving caring person than I should be willing to lose. If I don't trust that, then we're already done.
  • madrox 4y ago
    This, I think, is the heart of advice heard so often: "don't keep score." If balancing our emotional checkbook is more important than harmony with our partner, we care about something more than our marriage. I'm no expert, but I think caring about anything more than our marriage is how marriages end.
• pcthrowaway 4y ago
  My relationship just ended for mostly similar reasons (it wasn't just glasses in the sink, it was a few other things I did that she considered disrespectful that seemed minor to me) I was the only one working and paying for the apartment, her hobbies, and school, but things like the above would escalate into long arguments that I would ask to defer. The problem was, I would sometimes forget details that were important to her if we postponed an argument for a few days, so she wanted to have them now and that was disruptive of my work (I WFH, she studies from home). I might miss an entire day of work because of some minor thing that exploded into a 6 hour argument, while I was trying to disengage the whole time, but couldn't. A couple weeks ago I had enough, and decided I needed more autonomy, and moved out. I didn't want that to be the end of relationship, but for her it was the end. Not sure what my point is, I just wanted to get it off my chest. Sometimes these seemingly minor things may just be a sign of deeper incompatibilities.
  • belval 4y ago
    Honestly from the description you give, I wouldn't assign blame but it was probably the right call to break it off. 6 hours arguments that need to happen right now are a pretty big red flag...
    • RobertRoberts 4y ago
      I worked from home for many years (before it was popular) and I had a family too. This kind of things happened to me and my wife a lot, hours of arguing while I should have been working. You can work through it, you just have to care enough. We no longer have arguments longer than maybe 20 minutes now. It can just be personality types and where you are in life. But a valuable person in your life? You work through that stuff to keep them, even if it's hard.
      • lotsofpulp 4y ago
        I would start billing my own children if arguments lasted hours.
      • AlanYx 4y ago
• holdenc 4y ago
  Today its glasses of water by the sink, tomorrow it's "you have to sanitize the car steering wheel after you drive," and eventually it's "don't get close to me if you walked by the bus stop." I feel sorry for anyone who has to endure this.
• motohagiography 4y ago
  So strange to read this as marriage hasn't really registered as thing for me in several years. I'm not sure what the case for it today is. Reading about guys saying if only they had been less of themselves, they might have avoided getting left just leaves me with a bad taste. I'm of the mind that we should take responsibility for our own happiness, and explicitly give others the opportunity to do the same for themselves. Controversially, if there is one thing I have found people live to regret most it's apologizing. It has taken a while to articulate, but I think apologies are a broken concept because they are what we offer transactionally when we are at a disadvantage, they're an unsatisfying, forced declaration of kind of moral bankruptcy and submission, which is the exact opposite of what someone who loves you wishes for you, or wants from you. I consider that what I really mean is, "I took this specific thing for granted and what I mean is I don't take it for granted, and thank you for it." Acknowledging and thanking someone for what you recieved from them adds value to a relationship, whereas an apology just asks to write it off. The same may be true for promises as apologies are mainly an artifact of breaking them. Taking responsibility for our own happiness and converting apologies into recognition and thanks before uttering them seems a lot more sustainable and likeable than being introspective and trying to change and compromise. Maybe I'm out of touch, but something about the article rubbed me the wrong way.
• Barrera 4y ago
  > When we’re having The Same Fight, positive intent, or chalking up any harm caused as accidental, can be just as much of a trust killer as more overtly harmful actions. It doesn’t matter whether we are intentionally refusing to cooperate with our spouse or legitimately unable to understand what’s wrong—the math results are the same. The net result of The Same Fight is more pain. Less trust. Regardless of anyone’s intentions. It would be very enlightening to also read the article written from the perspective of the partner. I suspect that partner would not focus on the glass but the lack of empathy shown by the other side, and the erosion of trust that causes over time.
  • raydev 4y ago
    He covers the lack of empathy pretty well if you read to the end.
• stuckinhell 4y ago
  Resentment can compound over small things, but I've also found from my friends failed marriages that physical attraction is big deal. One or both of the partners let themselves go physically. Now we can't stop aging, but we shouldn't lie to ourselves that physical attractiveness doesn't matter. The Halo effect is a real thing.
  • rhacker 4y ago
    Well I think that a lot of people that suddenly divorce and marry younger see the following: Wow this new person is stupid, I miss intelligence. And often - whoa, she's yelling at me for the same things. It wasn't the aging that made her this way, it was me.
  • phendrenad2 4y ago
    The thing is, it becomes progressively harder to look good as you age. And once you start getting out of shape that adds to the disadvantage. People hit 40 and this combination of factors causes them to just give up.
  • retrac 4y ago
    > One or both of the partners let themselves go physically. Exactly. I don't expect my partner to start unbalding. Or to shake those last few pounds that start haunting us when our metabolisms slow down. But my God, I will leave him if he starts wearing stained sweatpants, or adopts the "well I'm bald on top so that means the rest doesn't need a haircut" idea that some men seem to get.
• zcw100 4y ago
  My wife gave me a huge ration of shit the first year of our marriage for leaving a coffee mug in the sink and not putting it in the dishwasher then spent the next 10 years leaving dishes all over the house. It still pisses me off every single f-ing time I see one.
  • incomingpain 4y ago
    >My wife gave me a huge ration of shit the first year of our marriage for leaving a coffee mug in the sink and not putting it in the dishwasher then spent the next 10 years leaving dishes all over the house. It still pisses me off every single f-ing time I see one. My wife in our last home the day we moved in. I threw a shirt on top of our bed. 100% it was on the bed. Some point after it managed to hit the ground. Totally wasn't me. She brings me to the shirt on the ground and says that since I didn't care I cant ever complain if she does it. You can expect that my side of the bedroom is neat and orderly and well... So in the process of buying our current home. She explains that she needs a new start. That our previous home didnt feel like a home and so keeping things clean will be done at the new house. Do you expect there was any change? Flipside, I never ever criticized or anything along those lines. Never said a word. I'm not perfect and I don't expect flawed me will ever get a perfect spouse. Shit will go wrong. No reason to ever get pissed off or even criticize.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• orlovs 4y ago
  “It isn’t the mountain ahead that wears you out — it’s the grain of sand in the shoes”
• beckler 4y ago
  About 10 years ago, I had a internship at Newell Rubbermaid. As part of the experience, the entire group of interns across all the brands got to have lunch with the CEO and basically ask him anything we wanted. At some point, someone asked about his biggest regret. We all expected some business blunder, but he said that he was offered an executive position by Kraft to lead their Asian segment, and that his wife really did not want him to take the job because it would require them to move to that region. He regretted not listening to her, because it ended up being the catalyst that dissolved their marriage. We were all stunned silent, and you could tell that he was genuinely remorseful and so vulnerable in that moment. There are only a handful of moments in that internship that I vividly remember, but that was by far the most impactful one.
  • watwut 4y ago
    I mean, moving whole family without consent of partner indeed tend to break relationships. Not being able to take major promotion do cause resentment too, but damm, if my partner moved me to region I don't want to, I would be pissed.
    • Johnny555 4y ago
      But still, I can't imagine not being willing to move to any first world country that my senior executive spouse got transferred to -- as a senior corporate executive they've have a ton of resources at their disposal to make the move as easy as possible. I have a good job that I like, but if my wife told me her company was moving her to Japan for a while, I'd jump at the opportunity.
      • bcrosby95 4y ago
        It's impossible to answer in a vacuum. We live where we live because we're 10 minutes from my wife's two sisters, my wife's parents, and 3 cousins our kids love to play with. Generally, I think the only way we're moving is if they move first. Because my wife's whole family is here. And she spends multiple days per week with them. As do our kids. The idea that she should be supportive of me tearing her away from this support structure is questionable. Obviously if something came up we would discuss things. But I don't expect her to like it. Even if it involved a pay raise. Even if it involved moving somewhere she would love to live. Because these people aren't there.
• lloydatkinson 4y ago
  Get a dishwasher
  • 1970-01-01 4y ago
    That won't solve their issue
• rhacker 4y ago
  This is how I read this. The wife may have long ago brought up some argument that was "banned". In other words - bread winner conversations. Bread winners often have this trait: I make all the money, and I can only do that by working my butt off. So you need to take care of all the other things. No questions. This is why the dishes is such a huge deal now: Since the ACTUAL conversation is banned (by the man) the only thing the wife was able to bring up is anything that causes her to do MORE work for him. She now has to wash and put away the glass. It's a problem not because of that task, but because she got lesson-ed years ago on the bread winner crap and it's non-stop marriage poison forever after. Every time she sees him spend a few minutes glazing at a window or "browsing hacker news" (for example lol) or just not doing anything - that's feeding the fire too - because why couldn't he help with the unseen tasks she's been given and IGNORED for.
  • glitchc 4y ago
    Yup, a lot of these dissolutions are over money and control of the finances. Breadwinners need to treat their stay-at-homes with nice dinners, shopping experiences and pocket money that feels reasonable. A lot of them get it wrong. It’s all about dignity and respect really. Take that away from your partner and they’ll resent you, no matter how much pove there is between the two of you.
    • steveBK123 4y ago
      Yes, in a way I think it's almost easier to have two incomes and pay for help/services with the excess. Even if there is a 2:1 income ratio, each side can feel they are contributing monetarily and collectively decide what tasks are worth doing vs paying for. I can understand the psychology of both sides - the breadwinner thinks they are doing their job outside the house so why is the spouse not doing all the stuff inside the house. Any subset of tasks breadwinner spouse pick up (like dishes or laundry) they expects a gold star sticker for doing extra. Meanwhile the homemaker spouse feels put upon for the 1000 other things they do around the house and dealing with the kids. Likewise this is akin to the homemaker spouse tutored the neighbors kid for $100/week and then telling the 6-figure breadwinner that they are also contributing to the families income. Each side feels correct and like they are going above and beyond their scope..
• Arubis 4y ago
  It's never about the dish, or the coffee mug, or whatever. It's all about what raw spots that dish rubs up against, probably from long before your marriage began. If you or someone you love is finding themselves disproportionally hurt or irritated by small behaviors and habits—yes, of course, find ways to shift that behavior, but please also consider counseling or therapy. There may be far greater depths of healing available than merely changing a single behavior.
• trelane 4y ago
  It's interesting to contrast this divorce story in The Atlantic with another: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/12/divorce-parenting/621054/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/12/divorce-p...
  • weakfish 4y ago
    That story felt... obnoxious. It seemed like the woman in the story destroyed her life and her kids for a sense of novelty, instead of working with her husband to fix the problems she felt in her own emotional space.
• steveBK123 4y ago
  The glass near the sink instead of in the dishwasher thing I kind of get - it's like going halfway to solving the problem. If you want to use a dish again, don't put it into the gray zone near the sink. Leave it on your desk or the kitchen table or whatever you were using it or might use it again. If you are done, wash it or put it in the dishwasher to be washed. Leaving dirty stuff near the sink is ambiguous - easy to get mixed in with the clean dishes while you are emptying dishwasher to put them away. Mostly it reeks of asking the other partner to finish the job. I'd wager this guy didn't do the dishes more of than not either. A lot of men genuinely don't help out around the house and don't understand why it upsets their wife so much. From a gender roles inversion perspective this would be like if your wife bagged up the trash from the bin and then just left it next to the bin instead of taking it out. So now you have a dirty bag of garbage on the floor until someone decides to take it out. Almost a worse situation than just leaving the bin full. Regardless of whether an issue is petty or not, if a spouse indicates it bothers them for whatever reason, and the other spouse just basically ignores it, this is a recipe for disaster.
• csours 4y ago
  Listen to human experiences. If someone tells you they are experiencing something, they are experiencing it.
• JasonFruit 4y ago
  An accurate title might be, "A dirty dish by the sink can reveal a big marriage problem". That is, a succeeding marriage includes strategies to deal with such things, and provides compensations for minor issues that can't be resolved, but a marriage that can't resolve them and does not offer sufficient compensating value will fail.
• gotaquestion 4y ago
  ITT: armchair therapists whom I suspect have never cohabitated with a partner for multiple years. Sincerely, Armchair HN therapist
• SteveGerencser 4y ago
  I stopped doing dishes and generally cleaning around the house years ago. To start, I started in the restaurant business as a kid and my idea of cleaning a kitchen is wildly different than hers. While I was in restaurants she was in the USAF having other people do things like clean. After many years of me watching her take everything I washed or put away out and redo it, even emptying the dishwasher just to reload it and wash the dishes became a 'normal' thing. I gave up trying and just leave dishes in the sink or next to it because no matter what I do, she will redo it. I wait till she's out of town and do a deep clean on the kitchen just so I know it's finally cleaned the way it should be.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• belfalas 4y ago
  Reminds me of this comic - "You should have asked!" - great illustration of these dynamics: https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
  • khazhoux 4y ago
    That was nicely done.
• mwattsun 4y ago
  It's often the little things that determine the course of a relationship. For example, I took my bike into a shop I hadn't used before. They fixed the back tire, but failed to place the cap on the tube. I may seem like a little thing, but stems leak a bit, so it's important. I'm never going back to them.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• carride 4y ago
  Last year his original 2016 blog post was mentioned as well https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/parenting/marriage-invisible-labor-coach.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/parenting/marriage-invisi...
• aidenn0 4y ago
  After reading the comments, I have come to the conclusion that either HN commenters are bad readers, or the author is a bad writer. Perhaps we can also fault the Atlantic headline writer (though I should point out that the <title> tag is different from the headline in the article itself, and using that instead of the <title> tag for the HN post might have reduced confusion). It seems something like 1/3 of the comments are coming up with reasons why "it's not about the dirty dish" when the author repeatedly makes this same point in the sub-headline and throughout the article. In at least one point where a comment reply violated HN guidelines by stating that the commenter clearly hadn't read the article, the original commenter stated that they had, so it seems unlikely to me that it's just people commenting on the headline itself. Given that the author blames his divorce on poor communication, perhaps this shouldn't surprise me?
• phendrenad2 4y ago
  Think of all the wear and tear on the dishwasher because you open and close it every time you use a dish or glass. I'll bet dishwasher manufacturers are pleased by this sort of thing.
• sethammons 4y ago
  In a relationship, you often get to chose between being right _or_ being happy. A lot of people don't realize this but here it was again. The author wanted to be right ("my view is correct, glass near the sink is not important"). The author lost being happy at the cost of being right since their spouse left.
• InfiniteRand 4y ago
  I think a lot of fights (at least based on my experience) are really issues in how the spouses are dealing with other things that bleed into a minor dispute, and also how the other spouse deals with that potential escalation. For me and my wife, most our fights are when we are tired or stressed. When we are relaxed we can more or less shrug off the little annoyances, maybe saying a reminder that gets some response, but neither of us care enough about the matter to pursue it further. That's not to say we don't have real disagreements, but generally we're able to talk real disagreements out to the point where we more or less respect each other's point of view. I think if we were better at dealing with stress, we wouldn't have any real fights. But if wishes were fishes, we'd all have a feast
• hogrider 4y ago
  This reads really pathetic to me. If that's really why she left and not simply that she found a higher value male or something that's just plain crazy and she's doing him a favor.
• globular-toast 4y ago
  Your wife left because her feelings changed. That's all there is to it. End of story. Of course, this is completely unsatisfactory to a man. Men torture themselves trying desperately to think of the reason why her feelings changed. Was it that thing I said 2 years ago? Would it have been different if I did a thing on that one morning 6 months ago? Surely if I can figure out why this happened then there will be a solution. But not everything is a problem that can be fixed. She left you because she felt like it. You just have to accept it. There is no reason and there's nothing you could have done differently. It sounds callous, but once those feelings are gone, it's no more callous than you not being in love with any of the other women on earth. Men and women do not feel love in the same way. No woman will ever love you as deeply as you love them. This is the sad reality of being a man. It's getting tough out there, guys.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• ianferrel 4y ago
  My wife and I have found what is (I think) a good way to resolve many things like this. When we have a disagreement about something, we stop and ask each other whether this issue is important to each of us. If we both think it's not important, then we just agree not to talk about it anymore. That's the "agree to disagree" case. If it's important to one of us, then we just do that. I don't have to agree with her that it's important to do it her way. If I don't really care what happens when I'm done with a glass, I do the thing she wants. The hard part of this is letting go of "being right" and just doing the thing that's important to your partner even if you don't think it should be important. But you really can decide to do this. Only if it's important to both of us do we have to keep arguing about it or figure out a compromise. Those issues are luckily rare.
  • redbar0n 4y ago
    Reminds me of the transformational question: «Do you want to be right, or do you want to have a relationship?»
• 1970-01-01 4y ago
  As an engineer, the much worse scenario is dirty dishes sitting in the sink while the dishwasher is considered "full" but is actually at some fraction of its capacity.
• maestroia 4y ago
  Let's reverse the situation and ask, what did she do which he considered disrespectful? Did he go all passive-aggressive over those items? Did he discuss them with her? Would she consider changing her behavior, even minor? It takes two to tango.
• simulate-me 4y ago
  I don't think it's possible to pinpoint why relationships dissolve. Sure, there is always "something," be it dirty dishes, a certain habit, etc. But usually, these are context-specific complaints, meaning the person complaining about e.g. dirty dishes could be happy in a totally different relationship where their partner also didn't do the dishes. Ultimately relationships break down because one or both people stop trying. Caring about the dishes is a symptom of, or response to, relationship apathy, not the cause.
• js2 4y ago
  A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. Not really. Now maybe his wife wasn't communicating as effectively as she could. But the author seems to indicate that she was and that he could have done more to recognize what she was saying and to empathize with her. He didn't get it, and now he clearly regrets it. It's too bad a healthy relationship didn't come out of that, but sometimes there's just too much damage. My wife and I have been together for 33 years, married for 26 of those (we met in HS). I'm extremely fortunate that she's empathetic, compassionate, and has the patience of Job. Because it turns out that for a large portion of our marriage, I behaved like an asshole. She's not confrontational, while I thrive on it. We had a rule never to let a day end angry at each other, but mostly due to faults on my side she wasn't always heard because I wasn't open to listening to her. This built a lot of resentment. It came to a head years ago, but we worked through it and our relationship is healthier than it's ever been. "You're not wrong Walter; you're just an asshole." The hard work in a relationship isn't compromise. That's table stakes. The hard work is communication.
  • felipesoc 4y ago
    He dismissed her feelings, she did communicate that it annoyed her but he thought "it shouldn't annoy her, it's really not a big deal". He tried to reason about her feelings from his own and came to the conclusion that he was right and she shouldn't feel the way she did. And that kind of thinking surely doesn't stop with dishes. He must have done that on all aspects of their relationship
    • _69x2 4y ago
      The Atlantic should add this comment to the article as a TL;DR.
  • antiterra 4y ago
    > The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. I think there’s some sort of an analogy around a leaky canoe. Like: Is the person hoping for a friendly wave, some hints on stopping the leak or for you to get into the canoe and help bail the water out?
• Diesel555 4y ago
  I'll just put this here, there is a book which describes exactly what the author realized too late. It's better to learn these things things via reading than in retrospect. I realized I have "Difficult Conversations" many times a day. I wish I had read it years ago, it's a relationship changer. Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most
• twfree_ 4y ago
  I’m tired of the whole bread winner argument. I understand that there are situations where this fits (i.e immigrants who don’t speak the language or are tied to a draconian visa) but if you marry into someone to have them cleaning your flat you should probably get settled for something better. In my own case, as a single I was living into 1/4 of the cost of my married life. Because my car was not good enough, my house was not good enough, my clothes weren’t good enough for my salary I got into the overpriced premium for literally the same life. Soon after my then spouse entered the “why should I work phase if your can afford to pay it all” and decided to stay at home and “find myself again” I couldn’t bring my friends over because they are dirty, loud or annoying. I couldn’t travel alone because “I was going to cheat”, so every business trip I had to take during my married live I had to pay to bring my ghost. After a very stressful divorce I’m back to where I started and cry of happiness when I leave a dirty underwear in the bathroom and no one screams at me.
• snakeoil 4y ago
  If you took care the dishes she would find sth else to complain about. It is usually a deeper issue that is expressed in whatever minor plausible thing it finds around. You don't need clean dishes to expresses your love in a relationship that is built on mutual undertanding, respect and eventually love.
• Cd00d 4y ago
  Why doesn't this article skip down properly? I use the space bar to page down on longer articles. But on this one it scrolls one sentence too far. The scroll doesn't know about the top banner.... Surely I'm not some super rare whacky outlier in this, and surely the webdevs at The Atlantic are proud professionals - so why doesn't it work correctly? Chrome on Mac.
• tomp 4y ago
  Buy a dishwasher. Best investment ever.
• jgerrish 4y ago
  Ooh, we could write a ML app to categorize plates and precious china and recommend a way to pack your dishwasher and like even provide house-dependent subsets of recommended packing (collect bonus points!) and this is so fucking magical! Am I missing the point?
• chmod600 4y ago
  The author still doesn't seem to quite get it. The problem is that seeing the dish was one of his wife's primary interactions with him, and it was a negative one. She doesn't see him most of the day, I'm guessing, but she still sees the one glass on the otherwise pristine countertop and knows it's him. It causes a slight bad mood, which carries over to the time she does see him, which then puts him in a bad mood. The solution is to literally count good interactions you have with your partner during a day or week. It could be by being unexpectedly tidy or with small surprises or even just being excited and happy and lighting up a room for no reason. If that count starts to average less than one, your are in real trouble. What won't work is driving the small annoyances down to zero. Sorry, ain't gonna work. There's always something to be annoyed about. That being said, if your partner seems to care a lot about one thing, at least make some effort just because you care. But do it because you want them to be happy, not to systematically eliminate possible causes of divorce, because it's not gonna save you.
  • SunlightEdge 4y ago
    I think this is very useful advice. It partly reminds of laughing therapy. Where people laugh continuously for 2 minutes (fake laugh). But what can happen is that you start to genuinely feel happy and laugh.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• achikin 4y ago
  It seems from the article that the real reason is that the guy is extremely dull. I don’t think I could live with a person who makes bullet-point list of reasons why he has left a glass near a sink.
• aantix 4y ago
  Those arguing for/against whether the dishes are trivial are missing the point. You always ultimately make the choice whether these demands, whether too many or not, are worth it. You decide. Dan Savage does a brief talk about this titled the Price of Admission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1tCAXVsClw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1tCAXVsClw
• Forgeties79 4y ago
  Interesting. I remember reading this piece years ago about dirty dishes and divorce as well. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes... Same concept more or less. Not saying the Atlantic lifted this, just funny to see “doing the dishes” at the core of another marriage discussion.
• robaato 4y ago
  A good therapist is worth it. Over 20 years of marriage, a variety of issues to cope with between us (kids etc), and difficulty discussing difficult topics. Currently doing an hour a month (or so) with a (good for us) therapist, and stuff is discussed in those sessions that doesn't otherwise get addressed. Work in progress. Worth it... (Need to research what is a "good therapist" for both of you - oh and doing it on Zoom makes it a whole lot easier to fit into busy lives - some benefits of Covid)
• StillBored 4y ago
  Woah, so, its his fault his wife was finding things he does, and trying to change his mostly thoughtless behaviors all the time? Well granted I couldn't see what was going on, but just from the article its hard to find him at fault if like many relationships one of the partners is constantly finding faults in his basic unthinking trivial behaviors. I'm pretty sure that two people living together can find things about the other person that irritates them. That is not really a problem unless its willful (aka he is creating a real problem for the other person, or intentionally subverting them, etc). The much larger problem is the person who cannot control their emotions enough to recognize that the other person isn't doing it willfully and deal with it, without constantly trying to reprogram the other person. Sure maybe in a loving relationship both people try to avoid the behaviors that irritate the other person, but at the end of the day it seems this is a never ending road. A person can teach themselves to put the dishes in the washer, or turn off the light, but frequently this takes time, and sometimes old habits die hard. And then there needs to be an endpoint, and an understanding environment in place to succeed. So, the constant nagging, complaining and taking it personally when the other person fails? That isn't the fault of the person who fails to live up to an artificial and constantly changing set of requirements. The long term result of living like this and trying to constantly improve yourself to some standard being set by your partner? Its just going to be intense hatred when ten, twenty, thirty years later you wake up and realize that you have changed everything about yourself and they are still not satisfied. So, no, unless it was willful, he isn't the one at fault here, she is for inventing things that bother her, and then getting upset when he doesn't agree that dishes need to be prewashed, or placed in the dishwasher individually rather than as a batch, etc. Because when he lived alone or with his parents it was perfectly ok to put them next to the sink and reuse them, and then run the washer when the sink got full, and now its suddenly not. So, frankly he sounds like the lucky one. Lucky she moved on so he can focus on what he thinks matters rather than trying to meet this other persons standards and being punished for failing.
• waferthin 4y ago
  When I flatted back in the day, it became apparent that different people have different 'cleanliness thresholds' and that too high or too low compared to everyone else was going to be bad news. Luckily my wife and I have similar levels, and neither of us would see a glass by the dishwasher as some morbid sign of a lack of love. But lots of people would and do apparently, and I'm not surprised.
• blunte 4y ago
  There's really a lot in this essay, and I'll forget or get before before I provide all the commentary I might want to. > But she never did. She never agreed. Your rights end where mine begin. And by that, I mean "my intolerance trumps whatever your opinion is". That means the most flexible people, often the most rational, have to accept the intolerance and lack of flexibility of others to coexist. I don't like my kitchen counter cleaned with a rag that becomes dirty upon first use and then adds bacteria on multiple following uses. I would rather the counter keep only the germs it currently has. Or better yet, I would prefer it be cleaned with a fresh towel or even light detergent and very hot water. I don't like the toothpaste bottle to be buried in a basket under my wife's nightly consumables, such that when I go to bed later I have to dig through a lot of stuff to find the toothpaste. I would rather the bottle be left on the counter where both people can find it. But that bottle on the counter is a no-no. So I bend, but it pushes me a little more away every night. > It was about consideration I do not believe that consideration was the issue with TFA's wife. TFA had valid reasons for leaving a glass on the counter. Wife lacked consideration and pragmatism. As an alien to earth, I realize my perspective may be warped. But it makes sense to me. And as such, I think the problem with most relationships is ignorance and lack of ability to reason. Reasons people feel how they feel: - there is a practical time/money/pain cost between the alternatives - there is a habit which is hard to change - there is a behavior with no forethought and no post-evaluation Some things have assessable costs. I could come up with any number of examples, but one very silly example would be parking. If I choose to park behind someone on a driveway instead of beside or on the street, it will take the starting and moving of my car (time, fuel, and minor wear and tear cost) to move my car out of the way so they can leave. Now in the larger consideration, perhaps there is no side-by-side room, and the street option is risky. Then it's a matter of risk balancing and personal time cost. Some things are just habits, often learned from our upbringing. Someone who grows up with a particular scarcity will be extra sensitive to waste on that resource. Even when the resource is no longer restricted (what's the right word I'm looking for?), the habit remains. "Don't use so much water!". "Yes, but it takes 60 seconds for the hot water to reach the faucet, and proper washing requires (debatable) water temperature." Or "nothing should be left on the counter", so the toothpaste goes into a bin beneath many other things. So whomever comes next to brush must dig for the toothpaste. Amusingly (passively-aggressively) my solution to the toothpaste problem was to buy a freaking lot of them and get a new one each night, allowing them to pile up. Finally, there are just behaviors we learned as kids before we had reason. Some things must be done a very specific way, and other things can be done any way. Unfortunately, two people from different families will have different combinations of specific and any. Then it comes down to realization of the behavior and rational analysis of the pros and cons, and perhaps then the alternatives.
• zaroth 4y ago
  Or here’s a different theory. Maybe this couple weren’t actually in love anymore and just didn’t want to come to terms with it, because there was a confounding variable, namely, a child. It’s not the toothpaste cap. You can argue about the toothpaste cap all you want, but really, truly, it’s not the toothpaste cap.
• gamesbrainiac 4y ago
  There is a lot to learn from the article. It is easier to be right, and harder to show compassion. A show that I recently watched is called "Scenes from a Marriage", and it starred Oscar Isaac and Jessica Chastain. Best marriage education I ever got.
• WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  we give up too easily.
• fleddr 4y ago
  It's hard to judge without any additional background, but it seems a case of general neglect. The wine glass being a mere symbol of it. Most marriages end because of neglect. A decreasing investment in each other. Surely a true investment, say planning a weekend trip together, would make his wife feel so appreciative and happy that the wine glass is forgettable. I should add though that investments go both ways. Investing (time, love, money) in a relationship is a must-do, but as much as this is common sense, it's still no guarantee for success. For the simple reason that often the underlying love is not there, or long gone. It's now replaced with the currency of obsessive continuous validation. To me, acceptance is a core condition of true and unconditional love. I love my wife dearly as she is. Flaws and annoyances included. I don't judge her or try to change her in any way, I'm a live and let live kind of guy. She can be her total self with me. If today she'd slip, stop doing her part of tasks, turn into an alcoholic, whichever...I will love her regardless. She'll do none of these things as she's not that type. She accepts me as I am. Which is pretty important because I'm ungovernable, it's genetic. I'll do everything and anything, just don't package it as an order. I do things out of free will, as does she. When you care deeply about somebody, you see what needs to be done. Surely I might get it only 80% right, but that's good enough. We're not running a business here. And in the rare case where either of our flaws pose a real issue, I guess we can just talk about it. That's what reasonable people that love each other do, instead of turning it into a passive aggressive power play where you keep score cards. We're a perfectly happy relaxed couple that can't remember our last fight. We even need to do joke fights as we struggle hard to think of something worthwhile to argue about. The point being, don't ever come home to a second boss. Don't keep scores. Don't obsess over changing the other. It's unhealthy and a massive signal for a lack of underlying deep love. Sexist as it may sounds, in my group of friended couples, the pattern of the ultra dominant wife seems too consistent to ignore. I know these guys. They're not perfect, but pretty great. They work full time, do a reasonable job at chores, they minimize things outside the family (like drinking with buddies), are very involved with their kids, and then...well, the day is over. And it still isn't enough. It never is. Don't get stuck that way. Or as my dad summarized my relation: fuck son, you got lucky.
• sfink 4y ago
  Ouch. The article resonated with me and seems to indicate the author has gotten some good personal growth out of this, but the final sentence kind of killed me: "I could have carefully avoided leaving evidence that I would always choose my feelings and my preferences over hers." Perhaps it was not the intent, but that really sounds like he thinks the solution here would have been to cover up the evidence. Not to, say, figure out how to reconcile their feelings and preferences. I'm not sure if it makes me more or less an expert—I screw up stuff like this all the time, but I do recognize that I am screwing this up. My take: it's not about the dirty glass. It's not about faking that you care. It's not even about communicating, because if they were to read each other's minds in this situation, she'd discover that she was right all along. My best guess: there was a problem, and no will or desire to solve it. It's the visible manifestation of the same lack of will to solve other problems, the same lack of interest in figuring out what the other person wants/needs and doing what is necessary to make it happen. From her point of view, the dirty glass issue is proof that he's not going to work to make anything go better. From his point of view, it's proof that she's willing to throw out the whole marriage rather than address what's underneath that surface-level problem. Maybe she's afraid of looking petty, which ironically ended up making her look even more petty if you just look at the surface. If this couple were to open up enough to each other to attack the real underlying issues, would the dirty glass continue to be placed by the sink? Who knows. Who cares? I doubt either of them would, or ever did. Every marriage needs a functional conflict resolution process, and they never found or made one. (It's tricky, because in the first M years you can just have sex with each other and then it's all good. The next N years you can have a big blowout fight and then it's better. M and N overlap. So the need only becomes critical after some number of years.) I would suggest my process, except I haven't worked it out either. I can say that it depends on the specific two people involved. Stuff like love languages may be sufficient for some couples, but it barely starts to address what's needed for my relationship.
• honkycat 4y ago
  I'm a software engineer, i make decent money. Every two weeks I pay $125 to have a cleaning lady come by and clean the house. She is self employed and very nice. It is SO NICE for my partner and I to have a week where we can just kick back and not worry about keeping the house clean. Highly recommended! That being said there are some pie dishes in the sink right now I CANNOT. GET. CLEAN. My hands hurt from scrubbing haha
• unixhero 4y ago
  I cannot fathom why the kitchen sink is so important, to so many women. This topic and its potential bad outcome; divorce comes up in a lot of places, not just this post. It is like this is a megatrend or at least a pattern.
• citizenpaul 4y ago
  Why is this garbage on hackernews? It has nothing to do with tech? Its also a terrible article, I'm not going to get into why it is terrible.
• byteface 4y ago
  I've had to take advice that saved my relationship. It doesn't feel natural but that's what changing behaviour is about. Never stop worshipping your wife. Remember she's your Queen. You put her on a pedestal and would do ANYTHING for her. Climb a tree for honey, slay a dragon. Suddenly making a cuppa or cleaning a cup is easy right? I did ask a friend once what he did when his wife started tidying and nagging and he said he just joined in tidying. If I'm too busy to help I often transfer a large sum of money to her account without telling her. Or maybe later I go out to the garden or garage and sort that out. I remember there's a bit in the classic book 'Men are from Mars" about just the thing the author is talking about and he really could have done with reading that book. I read it about 20 years ago but it had the bit on 'relationship points'. Now he thought his salary was worth 50 sex pts. But really it was only 1. and the dirty dish was worth -1. So he was left on 0 pts.
• deleted 4y ago
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• zecg 4y ago
  If you want a better book on this topic, I can recommend "Sadly, Porn" by Edward Teach MD, also known as The Last Psychiatrist.
• jcpst 4y ago
  I just referenced back to this article when I got a text from my frustrated wife. I was able to give her a well articulated reply based on this. This was super valuable for me.