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Vizio TVs are now showing banner ads over live TV
- twobitshifter 5y ago[still prophetic today](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/vampirediaries/images/9/9c/Idiocracy-tv.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150801193623 http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/vampirediaries/images/9/...)
- rootsudo 5y ago"Jump Ads represent yet another step in VIZIO’s ongoing mission to unify the smart TV experience with features that benefit viewers, content providers and advertisers," said Adam Bergman, VP of sales, Vizio Ads." Wow at that. For one thing, getting prime time coverage of ads, w/o having to pay networks is pretty amazing but how it's done (Just the spin of it all) is just pure evil and that spin - I don't think any ads benefit viewers though.
- 0xy 5y agoAds benefit the customer by reducing the price of a 55" 4K TV down to 300 bucks, which is absolutely below the true cost of the device (parts, R&D, support etc). They are selling you a below-cost TV and making it up in ads, same as Microsoft selling you a below-cost Xbox and making it up in accessory sales. I don't think it's correct to say there's not benefit. The benefit of YouTube ads is that you have unlimited 4K content available for free (below cost of bandwidth). While you may say you'll pay 600 bucks for that 55" TV with no ads, most consumers will disagree with you and they show it through behavior.
- Anther 5y agoI do wonder if they were to offer exactly that - a version with and another without ads, what would happen. This is not without precedent after all. I paid more for my Kindle so as not to have to be advertised to when I want to read.
- foobarian 5y agoThere are plenty of dumb TVs out there, usually intended for commercial signage, conference rooms, etc. But they are more expensive.
- 0xy 5y agoFree users of YouTube outnumber YouTube Premium subscribers by an overwhelming number. If no ads isn't worth $10/month, you can bet no ads isn't worth several hundred dollars on each TV purchase. If most YouTube users were Premium subscribers, it would more than double revenue. Premium subscribers are worth more to Google than free ones are in ads revenue, by a lot. Monetized channels receive orders of magnitude more revenue per view from Premium subscribers than free ones.
- toastal 5y agoYup, look at how popular the Oculus Quest is at $300 and how Facebook flashes ads in them.
- op00to 5y agoDid you read the article? The broadcasters are the ones that control the ads in this case. Not Vizio.
- Taniwha 5y agoTime to bring out a commercial pi-hole product .....
- cf100clunk 5y agoI cannot fathom who would be an early adopter of this Vizio TV, but I sure hope it will be someone willing to get a dump of the network traffic to see what might be done to blockade it.
- 88913527 5y agoI refuse to replace my dumb TV until it dies.
- jachee 5y agoSaaaame. And when/if I do, it’ll be with something else with zero network connectivity.
- andrew_ 5y agolooked into dumb tvs last year. wanted to get one, but the specs are nowhere near the smart tvs. what we need is replaceable firmware.
- toastal 5y agoIt's the same with smart phones and laptops too. The first feature that seems to have 'worse' specs too is the screen (terrible color gamut and accuracy, only 1080, IPS instead of one of the OLED varieties).
- HideousKojima 5y agoOr a drop in replacement board to drive the display
- ourmandave 5y agoCan't you just disable the internet connection on a Smart TV? My current monitor is a 4K TCL Roku TV, but it's only connection is an HDMI cable to the PCs video card.
- dmart 5y agoExcited for 5G to become commonplace so behavior like this can never be disabled.
- buu700 5y agoEasy fix: turn your TV rooms into Faraday cages.
- cf100clunk 5y agoEasier said than done.
- blamazon 5y agoAll it takes is money. Tradespeople all over the world know how to build a room like this because it’s a construction technique used in hospitals for imaging rooms. I’ve stood in one before the interior surfaces went up - such an insane amount of copper. They had a guard observing it 24/7.
- javajosh 5y agoSalvage price for copper is ~$3/lb. Imagine a 100 dollar bill that weighs 30 lbs. That seems...inconvenient.
- axiolite 5y ago> Imagine a 100 dollar bill that weighs 30 lbs. That seems...inconvenient. "Carry this 30 lbs box out to your car for me and I'll give you $100..." Sounds like an excellent deal to me. I can't imagine many grocery store employees ever get that big of a tip.
- blamazon 5y agoYou have to consider this in the context of an active construction site where material handling equipment is strewn about everywhere. 30 pounds is nothing to a pallet jack or a forklift that can go to a telehandler that can put the load in a pickup truck. A wide variety of power equipment is just sitting around, keyed-alike. Thousands of pounds of copper can be gone in a moment to a clever gang of thieves. Still not a great ROI for the criminal risk being taken, but the people taking this stuff live in very different circumstances than myself and presumably yourself.
- prepend 5y agoI used to like Visio as they were a pretty straightforward company selling TVs at better prices than Samsung and Sony. They were simple and cheap and disrupted established players. This is ridiculous and is so anti-user. I hope a new upstart company comes along to just sell simple TVs.
- judge2020 5y agoReduced prices are always either paid for with cheaper components or backend revenue.
- LegitShady 5y agoor less profit
- lotsofpulp 5y agoTVs are already a low single digit profit margin business. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/VZIO/vizio-holding/profit-margins https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/VZIO/vizio-holding...
- scq 5y agoThat depends on the market positioning. High end LG and Samsung TVs have a healthy margin. In the first half of 2018, LG Electronics' operating profit margin on their TV segment was 12.4% due to strong OLED sales[0]. 0: http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=24794 http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=2...
- tyrfing 5y ago3.3% for LG last quarter, that 2018 number is better than anything they've seen in the last 2 years. Samsung is losing money manufacturing panels, but their reports are a mess. For comparison, Apple is at 31%, Walmart is at 4.5%.
- vsskanth 5y agoDoes this mean it can identify the content being delivered over HDMI ? Not sure if the live TV example here is through their own internal tuner or using a cable box
- Anther 5y agoI believe the tech being used very literally scans the stuff being shown on screen. I have read about this tech in the past. It also raises privacy concerns, as if you watch old family movies or some such, the TV could be beaming metadata of that back to the mothership for analysis. Creepy times we live in.
- vsskanth 5y agoWow. I'm curious to know how Inscape (the scanning tech mentioned here) is able to circumvent HDCP in this case. Do they have special access ?
- userbinator 5y agoThe TV is the one displaying, it obviously needs to decrypt the content.
- spicyjpeg 5y agoSmart TV SoCs usually have a capture engine that taps into the video stream being sent to the screen after HDCP decryption and allows it to be DMA'd directly to main RAM [1], and from there analyzed and sent to the manufacturer's ad partner of choice. As long as the firmware does not allow the end user to access these decrypted frames in any way, the TV will still pass HDCP certification with no issues. [1] https://blog.ammaraskar.com/roku-tv-philips-hues https://blog.ammaraskar.com/roku-tv-philips-hues
- braingenious 5y agoAs somebody that owns a Roku TV, I’m hoping that somebody releases some software to disable this sort of stuff altogether. This is absolutely fucking bullshit.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoCalls for regulation by regulators.
- amluto 5y agoIMO automatic content recognition, and indeed any attempt by a TV to recognize or react to content or anything a user says or does, without GDPR-style genuine consent, should be outright illegal. Possibly even a felony. (Wiretapping, anyone?) Fine print should not be able to excuse this.
- wmf 5y agoIt's funny you should mention that because Vizio just added a huge "opt-in" privacy disclaimer around a month ago.
- kuschku 5y agoThe best way to avoid this: Nvidia Shield + "Console Gaming Monitor" (from e.g. Gigabyte, LG, etc) Yes it's more expensive, but that's how much they'd make from you with ads.
- joenathanone 5y agoHow do you watch live TV with that setup?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y agoIf you really still have a cable box, HDMI out to the a splitter for video/audio. Video to the monitor and audio to an amplified speaker.
- judge2020 5y agoAssuming streaming TV via Sling/Hulu/ATT TV/YT TV, nVidia shield has a DRM module for watching content, however such hardware attestation compatibility is never a given and can spontaneously break[0]. Otherwise, you can get a TV antenna if you’re fine with the reduced selection that provides. The general premise, though, is to get a non-smart ‘commercial’ TV without ads and use your own streaming box, maybe even a PC (with a proper OS-GPU-hdmi DRM chain), to control your experience. 0: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/259579/shield-tv-no-longer-able-to-stream-amazon-video/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/2595...
- drewg123 5y agoFor OTA, you get tuner like the HDHR, and use one of many PVR apps available to playback and even record OTA TV.
- kuschku 5y agoThe german evening news are available as free live stream via their android TV app, and outside of that, we just don't watch live TV. But if I needed live TV I'd just connect a satellite receiver box to our AV receiver as second input, just like we've connected our Switch, Wii, N64 and the emulator RPi.
- dpcan 5y agoHaven’t there been banner ads at the bottom of shows for over a decade now or more? Usually not from the tv maker, but still a big banner at the bottom with a cheesy animation of the sitcom star or whatever?
- Macha 5y agoAround like the credits or transition between shows? Certainly never seen that just mid broadcast on a TV show
- slimsag 5y agoCompanies go where the money is, this is unfortunately where the money is. Samsung sells "commercial signage displays" which are kind of dumb TVs. The BE55T-H for example is 55in 4k for $600, stripped down OS / basically just HDMI in. BE65T-H is 65in for $800. They're also intended for always-on semi-static content from what I understand, which is nice.
- judge2020 5y ago> They're also a bit better displays given they're intended for always-on semi-static content from what I understand. While perhaps true, the extra price you’re paying is all in how they need to reach the same margins without that TV showing ads or otherwise having smart features they can sell.
- 88913527 5y agoPaying $600 or $800 for a television was at one point a normal thing. Not sure what current prices are, but that premium doesn't sound terrible.
- MBCook 5y agoLooks like it starts at about $400 for a normal 55 inch 4K Samsung, depending on model.
- Tagbert 5y agoIt’s a pretty good bet that that low price is subsidized by customer tracking shared with advertisers and the display of ads.
- MBCook 5y agoWe know it is. And that model is a few years old. But that’s the base price people would compare against. A 50% premium to get rid of that creepy stuff is pretty heavy, though it may be less for higher end stuff or newer models.
- seized 5y agoWell, good thing my Vizio is firewalled off from anything and everything. So it shall remain. It won't get any firmware updates. Funny how Vizio already got fined for almost exactly this. But now it's back as a ""feature"" for advertising.
- pabs3 5y agoThe firmware updates could come over a TV broadcast at some point. Some years ago there was a paper about transmitting malicious TV signals and getting code exploitation on TVs, so that is another thing to worry about.
- banana_giraffe 5y agoThere's been talk in the past about delivering data to STBs via closed-captioning side channels [1]. I don't know if it ever was actually done, but I've got to imagine there's even more room in modern broadcasts for this sort of thing. 1 = https://zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/tivo-cc-tagging-patent-application/ https://zatznotfunny.com/2005-11/tivo-cc-tagging-patent-appl...
- seized 5y agoUnlikely via my Roku, or whatever eventually replaces it. But yes... I dropped cable a few years ago in favor of Plex and Netflix.
- Anther 5y agoIs this something that could be defeated with PiHole?
- judge2020 5y agoLikely, assuming your router is intercepting and forwarding all port 53 traffic to it (since they tend to hard-code a DNS server). If they hard code an encrypted DNS client, a custom encryption solution or DOH or otherwise, it can’t be defeated via the network and you’re better off not supporting these practices financially by purchasing the product.
- TheDong 5y agoUsually not with a default pihole setup. Most smart TVs hardcode a dns server of 8.8.8.8, or one the company runs (rarely), which gets around a default pihole setup. See the recommendations on this thread for the additional work you'll have to do: https://discourse.pi-hole.net/t/recommended-strategy-for-clients-with-hard-coded-dns/22103 https://discourse.pi-hole.net/t/recommended-strategy-for-cli... Some consumer routers may not allow the configuration necessary at all.
- heavyset_go 5y agoIf you can block access to their hardcoded DNS servers, sometimes they'll fallback on what the network provides.
- LegitShady 5y agoI have been without a tv for a year because I cannot find a not smart display and I refuse to invite this sort of shenanigans into my home. No thanks not for me. Maybe I'll get a projector.
- givinguflac 5y agoIt’s pretty easy to just not connect it to the network isn’t it?
- LegitShady 5y agoWhy would I purchase something that is actively hostile to my interests so much that I don't want it to connect to the internet? Doesn't sound like anything I'd want in my house. It seems to me that if you stop paying companies working against your interest money, or only pay them money for products that aren't against your interest, you're probably going to do a lot better in the long run in terms of protecting your interest from unethical corporate raiders.
- slackfan 5y agoNo. Because the setup screen you get demands that you connect to the network and refuses to let you do anything with your dumb old dvd player until you give it network access. Welcome to dark patterns.
- spaniard89277 5y agoHaving to "deal" with an appliance that way isn't acceptable for me, + the crappy OS that comes with em. I work in helpdesk for an ISP by the way. I see what smart tvs do, and it aint pretty.
- relyks 5y agoI would return my TV immediately...
- Renaud 5y agoI wonder how many buyers will regret that purchase… It’s amazing to me that anyone would knowingly be ok with their tv spying on what content is being showed to serve ads, somethings that literally no-one except advertisers asked for. The privacy implication of these systems is huge. Profiles about viewing habits can tell a lot about someone’s political and religious affiliations. Having nebulous third parties manage these databases, probably badly, risking leaks, providing ad and government agencies yet another intimate way to monitor and profile citizens… I hope some government body like maybe some EU body is going to highlight the risks these technologies pose to all of us. Samsung does the same, and it seems the race is on for manufacturers to provide these ‘features’ as a way to remain competitive and get additional revenue streams.
- kvakvs 5y agoConsumers tolerating this and just trying to block the ads locally in their house — this is like ignoring the fact that the manufacturer has stuck a huge sex toy in the center of your TV, and wrapping it with a napkin to continue watching.
- user3939382 5y agoI was pretty much committed to never buying a Vizio product just based on my experience with their quality and other reports about their "smart" embedded software, but this pretty much seals it. Samsung has been getting pretty bold here too. I really prefer the free market to correct this kind of abuse, but I'm not sure how that works when they're all doing it. Theoretically everyone could just stop buying TVs but that's not going to happen. So it's just death by a thousand papercuts (abuses) I guess. Very sad.
- oneepic 5y ago>Samsung has been getting pretty bold here too. I seem to recall Samsung sending me notification banners on my Galaxy phone several years ago, around the holiday season, to buy more Samsung shit. From that moment on, I disliked them.
- nycdotnet 5y ago> Theoretically everyone could just stop buying TVs but that's not going to happen It has happened which is why manufacturers are struggling now and doing nonsense like this to allow them to sell TVs at the old market prices from back when a TV wouldn’t last that long.
- ihsw 5y agoConsidering the executives at these companies are mindless automatons, they will view declining sales as a signal that they need more "smart" features (ie: third-party integrations to provide alternative revenue streams) rather than an indicator that they need fewer "smart" features.
- torgoguys 5y agoI've never owned anything but a dumb TV so excuse what probably is a dumb question but if you buy a smart TV is there a reason you have to use the "smart" features? Why not just never connect it to the network? (Then use an external streaming box and treat it as a dumb tv.)
- cyral 5y agoOften you must connect it to download updates and set it up. For my last TV I even had to make a Samsung account for god knows why just to set it up. After that I think you can disconnect from WiFi and use it just fine. You can also turn off the system UI if you have an Apple TV or similar so that it goes straight into Apple TV rather than showing the pre-installed apps.
- CoastalCoder 5y agoFwiw, my LG and Samsung TVs both allow updates via thumb drive. Neither TV has ever been allowed on a network.
- op00to 5y agoI keep my TVs on a separate subnet so I can control them via network, but they are not allowed to reach the internet.
- notyourwork 5y agoI’ve bought 2 Samsung TVs in last 12 months, neither required internet access to function as a display.
- jen20 5y agoMy Samsung Frame TV has never been connected to the internet (and never will be), but still shows constant nag messages. Not only do I have to not fall prey to them, but also must hope that anyone else using the TV does not lest I get ads foisted upon me. I will never buy another Samsung consumer product under any circumstances.
- yumraj 5y agoThere are dumb TV alternates, such as the ones mentioned in this thread, and there are manufacturers which are better in this regard. If people are going to prioritize cost while making their purchase decision, it is obvious that the manufacturers are going to see how much they can push. If people stop buying such TVs, they will stop. So, stop buying such TVs.
- jeffbee 5y agoI'm sure you all stand ready to make slippery slope arguments, but an inducement at the end of a live TV broadcast for the user to continue watching the same series by other means does not strike me as either novel or objectionable. All streaming services will prompt you to continue watching the next installment of serialized content at the end. How is this actually different from that?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- DangitBobby 5y agoJust another unwelcome participant trying to get some of that sweet sweet attention-economy cash, as if there weren't enough vying for that spot already. In specific answer to your question, I'll just point you to your first sentence correctly identifying this as one of those slippery slope situations that the fallacy is named after.
- racl101 5y agoLove my 14 year old dumb TV. Never giving it up.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y agoMy 16yr old, 55-inch Panasonic with 1080p says hello.
- tootie 5y agoIsn't there a pretty obvious middle ground for broadcasters, advertisers and TV manufacturers to monetize? Smart TVs can track watching behavior and use it to better target ads placed into ad slots already in the broadcast. It's exactly what YouTube and most streaming audio does. Networks can broadcast shows with markers instead of baked-in ads. TVs can request appropriate length ads based on viewing and get more money per slot without viewers seeing more ads.
- thr0wawayf00 5y agoIt's crazy that me jailbreaking a device voids its warranty, but companies can make these kinds of updates without any real consequence. Customers should have the right to return a device any time if they don't like a particular update to the product. I know it's drastic, but if companies can turn what should be a basic device into an amorphous system that starts serving ads without the end-users consent after purchase, that should constitute a material change to the end product that was not appropriately advertised. This is the exact kind of thing that consumer protection laws should be able to cover.
- thfuran 5y agoI don't want to return my TV, I want to sue them for the theft of my functional TV and replacement with a superficially similar but vastly inferior alternative.
- thr0wawayf00 5y agoI never said you couldn't sue them. Those of us who would rather not waste the kind of time and money needed to sue an electronics manufacturer would prefer a return option instead.
- thfuran 5y agoWhy should it be the retailers' problem?
- tux1968 5y agoBecause they sold it to you. They're who set the price and took your money. They sold you defective goods. Why shouldn't it be their problem?
- thfuran 5y agoBut they didn't sell defective goods. They sold goods that were fit for purpose, and then the manufacturer deliberately destroyed them.
- rglullis 5y agoDoes anyone know how much would be the BOM for a dumb TV with a good 4K OLED panel? I'm starting to think that if creating a crowdsale of a dumb tv panel might be a profitable project.
- blamazon 5y agoMethinks it might be cheapest to have an open source main board to replace the internals of a platform-subsidized 4k model rather than build from scratch.
- rglullis 5y agoFor the DIY crowd, maybe. But there are so many SBCs and set-top boxes out there, my idea would be to have a panel with a very basic firmware and a slot where you could Bring-Your-Own-Kodi-and-tvheadend.
- javajosh 5y agoI suspect it's for the simple reason that anyone capable of doing this will choose to never connect a smart TV to the internet, and setup an external source. You'd have to do this with a dumb TV too, it's just fewer steps.
- blamazon 5y agoThis assumes that those TVs aren’t connecting to a random open network around it. Or even some kind of Xfinity public network type integration.
- pabs3 5y agoThe "TV" part is always going to involve software; decoding DVB and sending pixels to the panel. Some years ago there was a paper about transmitting malicious TV signals and getting code exploitation on TVs. Probably even a dumb monitor involves software, for example for the menus with support for languages or the microcontroller responding to the DDC/CI protocol over VGA/DVI/HDMI.
- 5y ago
- Beltalowda 5y agoI always wonder about these things; at least dozens – if not hundreds – of people were involved developing this: managers, designers, programmers, marketing, that sales guy with his ridiculous "features that benefit viewers" piece of spin, etc. And no one seemed to have thought "wait, I'm being a complete cunt here – every user who will have this 'feature' inflicted upon will hate it!" Sorry-but-not-sorry for the strong language, but I've taken to hold people individually responsible for this kind of stuff. Excepting people in social/financial circumstances where they don't really have a choice, if you're doing this kind of stuff then you're just being a gigantic twat. These people are all fairly well paid, so none of this "just doing muh job" nonsense. I just don't understand how people can do this kind of thing – I'm not surprised because I've seen it many times before, I just don't understand it.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
- judge2020 5y agoWhy do you think anyone in that chain has the power to stop it? Every competitor in the consumer TV market is doing ads somewhere in their smart TV UI; even if none of the underlings want to make this feature, the executives were probably the ones to give the order. These people could leave the company but even in the current competitive labor market, it isn’t hard to find someone willing to compromise their moral code for the position.
- sitharus 5y agoWhen your ability to eat, maintain shelter and healthcare, and what society considers your worth as an individual is, I’d linked you your continued employment you don’t speak out. Many people cannot afford to be fired or resign without another job lined up. Capitalism has made activism unaffordable.
- Beltalowda 5y agoThese folks aren't flipping burgers for minimum wage, or working in industries with a huge oversupply of labour. I betcha a significant number could find a different job if they wanted to without too much effort.
- robomartin 5y agoI had high hopes for Vizio. We have owned three of them. The latest one, purchased a few years back, was $2,000 US. I did not buy their lowest price model. Well, the thing is buggy as hell. It can't connect to the network (wired or WiFi) several times per month. Cycling power does not fix it. The only reliable solution I found is to unplug the ethernet cable, and plug it back in. When it does come back, it will do weird things. For example, when you last turned it off the volume was set to 7 (out of 100). If you have to the thing to get it to connect to the network it will, every few times, blast you at 100% volume even though the volume bar says 5, 7, 15, whatever. You have to jump on the remote and click it down. Just one click at it is back to normal volume. And then there's all the garbage on the home screen. I want none of it. I just want the few services we are subscribed to and icons for the input connected to the external PC, playstation and WII. That's it. Just a handful of icons would do. Instead, my $2,000 bought me a circus act every single time I turn on the TV. I really want to not buy a Vizio ever again. And then you realize they are all the same. Not sure what to do other than, as they say in the movies, "science the shit out of it" and design a full replacement main board for the thing and toss their electronics and software in the trash.
- RF_Enthusiast 5y agoI'm pretty sure, in the USA, the FCC and other agencies would frown on a banner ad that covers up the EAS (Emergency Alert System) crawl. Imagine a hearing impaired person not seeing a message that a tornado is approaching their immediate area. Hopefully it's just a poor attempt at an April Fool's joke, and not real.
- tzs 5y agoIt sounds like from the article that what Vizio is adding is a way for content providers to add interactive ads to their programs. The content provider decides where and when the ad will be shown.
- RF_Enthusiast 5y agoHow will the content provider know that a local EAS encoder has been activated? The EAS message is flattened into the video that an advertisement would/could cover. The example image of the jump ad in the article is covering the area that most EAS encoders provide text.
- Jxl180 5y agoGiven that EAS has an incredibly specific tone (that is illegal to broadcast) it shouldn't be hard for Vizio to just detect the EAS tone. I don't get why everyone is pretending like Vizio can't account for a very simple and common edge case in broadcasting.
- crackercrews 5y agoSo does this show ads if you hook up a device over HDMI? Or is it only if you use it as a 'smart' TV?
- wmf 5y agoYes, it's scanning the HDMI input, recognizing what show you're watching, selling that data, and in this case overlaying stuff.
- crackercrews 5y agoDoes it help if you don't hook it up to wifi? Or does it leverage HDMI to get to internet connectivity?
- wmf 5y agoIt does need Internet access for ACR to work.
- Dig1t 5y agoKey takeaway from this stuff: don't connect your TV to the internet. Just get a stupid Roku stick, Amazon Stick, Apple TV, whatever. It's obviously not right that they're doing this, but the solution is very simple and probably a better experience anyway.
- wmf 5y agoJust understand that those sticks have very similar dark patterns and privacy problems.
- belval 5y agoOh please. My 300$ 55" TCL TV with Roku does show ads for TV shows in the start menu, but it very far from what is described in this article. Same goes for my Fire Stick which is shows ads for their new shows in the main menu. I have never interacted with any device that did something as egregious as adding a banner on live TV.
- MajorBee 5y agoI have the very same thing you have, and I have started seeing banner ads from Roku on my Apple TV! It appears in the form of a banner overlaying on top of my Apple TV content saying something on the lines of “more ways to watch this content”. I haven’t interacted with the banner yet and don’t know if it’s actually scanning the content to generate recommendations, but regardless I thought it was incredibly invasive of Roku to insert ads into a service it had absolutely nothing to do with. This thread reminded me of the issue and I’m currently looking into how this can be disabled. Apparently there is a Roku setting that can disable these ad inserts — if that doesn’t work, off with Roku’s internet privilege. Apple TV’s UX is leagues better anyway.
- wmf 5y agohttps://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features-a4840102036/ https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y agoThe display of the banner ads is more visible, but the privacy implications are a bigger issue, since the ads seem to be tailored to the content you're watching. If they do this in countries covered with reasonable privacy laws (e.g. the EU), go directly to regulators.
- op00to 5y agoRead the article. The ads are triggered and the content is controlled by the broadcasters.
- notyourwork 5y agoThis is why my TV’s don’t connect to the internet, period. Have bought 2 Samsung TVs over last 12 months and neither has ever been connected to the internet. The menu regularly complains about it but I’ve learned to ignore that because my TV does one thing, go to source my receiver is plugged into and let the receiver do the rest.
- DDR0 5y agoThis is why we've started integrating SIM chips into TVs. :3
- op00to 5y agoFolks keep saying this, but I can’t find a reference to this actually happening. There is no way that current wireless connectivity can be cost effective to deploy at the scale of consumer televisions.
- kragen 5y agoI think the average number of active cellphones per person and sometimes-used TVs per person are both about 0.8. Where do you live that there are orders of magnitude more TVs than cellphones?
- op00to 5y agoIt costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars to certify an LTE/5g device. Not the chipset, but the entire device. Then, the per part cost of adding LTE chipsets that won’t be used on the majority of devices, since they’ll be connected to consumer internet. Finally, there is a fixed service cost that is not trivial per device per month per kb, usually. Each stage of design cuts into the already razor thin margins. And for what? To get data on a few people that don’t connect their tv to the internet?
- kragen 5y ago
- enos_feedler 5y agoPretty sure the industry is handing a market segment to Apple here. Stay tuned for the Apple Television in 2023
- thfuran 5y agoWill I need a second mortgage to get the stand?
- 999900000999 5y agoIf they program this to only operate during commercial breaks , I won't mind. I imagine they'd get sued though
- u2077 5y agoSee also: Root My TV: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938520 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29938520 PiHole: https://pi-hole.net/ https://pi-hole.net/
- _nickwhite 5y agoI have a couple of cheap, super huge Walmart black friday-type budget TVs in my house (including Visio). I would never hook these up directly to the Internet, and use a set-top device (Xbox, Roku, AppleTV, iPad, etc.) Never had a negative experience in the last at least 10 TVs I’ve bought. I realize doing it this way adds cost, but I’ve never wanted the lackluster experience these cheap Android-based experiences offer.
- steelframe 5y agoThe most recent TV that I hung on a wall in my house was actually a 42" 4k computer monitor with an external media device and a Bluetooth soundbar. I want absolutely no "interactive media center" stuff on the display itself. Just let me set the resolution, refresh rate, and color calibration, then anything relating to what media shows up on the display is under the complete control of whatever I plug into it.
- sys_64738 5y agoCan't you install Linux on your TV, or can you SSH into the smart TV OS and disable the /etc/hosts ad list?
- pabs3 5y agoNo, since Vizio doesn't release the Linux source code that will run on their TVs. Might be able to hack the existing install though, IIRC that is a normal Linux distro with systemd etc. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
- Bud 5y agoThey're referring to these ads as "features that benefit viewers"? Oh hell no. I will never, ever, ever buy any product from any company who does this kind of bullshit. Are you listening, Vizio? I mean forever. I'd rather go buy a 40-year-old tube TV than deal with this.
- op00to 5y agoMy father in law will buy Vizio and never even mention the ads. Privacy minded consumers are a small, small, small minority that obviously do not affect the marketing decisions of any TV manufacturer.
- Bud 5y agoThis isn't even primarily a privacy issue. It's a TAKE YOUR GODDAMN ADS OFF MY LIVE PROGRAM issue.
- op00to 5y agoIt’s the broadcaster that are putting the ads on there. In the article they explain the broadcasters control this.
- Bud 5y agoNope! It's the TV that is allowing the practice to begin with. I don't care who's controlling which ads they are. Allowing ANY ads of this nature is 100% evil. This just isn't even up for debate, so I am surprised you're trying.
- progman32 5y agoAt this point I'm actively avoiding buying any tech upgrades due to shenanigans like this. From TVs to computers to dishwashers. I have a good enough set of last gen dumb tech and I'm holding onto it as long as I can. 1080p60 is more than good enough.
- pabs3 5y agoVizio are also being sued for ripping off the Linux kernel and not complying with the GPL license. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
- awslattery 5y agoAll smart TVs are terrible, and aigapping Vizio has been the only saving grace to them in our first home to date.
- jasonladuke0311 5y ago> "Jump Ads represent yet another step in VIZIO’s ongoing mission to unify the smart TV experience with features that benefit viewers, content providers and advertisers," said Adam Bergman, VP of sales, Vizio Ads. What kind of soulless automaton can write corp-speak garbage like this? I wonder what Adam Bergman would think if his dentist took a piss in his mouth and then charged him for “industry-leading oral antiseptics”.
- cm2187 5y agoI don't think I have seen any TV review trashing a model for displaying ads (or even mentioning it in the review), but that's a major decision factor for me.
- dagw 5y agoQuite possibly because TV companies are smart enough to not send out review units with ads enabled. Or, as it seems in this case, they wait until after the TV has developed a good reputation and sold in large numbers, before enabling the ads.
- kllrnohj 5y agortings.com usually has a whole section on when and where TV ads are displayed. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/ads-in-smart-tv https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/ads-in-smart-tv
- SilasX 5y agoJust ask him if he likes them on his home TV.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sethammons 5y agoI guarantee every time he sees an ad on his TV he smiles as he realizes the money flowing into his accounts are due to its presence.
- pabs3 5y agoThis is one of the reasons why I always advocate never using the vendor software on a device and always replacing it with a new OS of your own choosing. Note of course that even common Linux distributions have privacy issues, here are the ones that we knows about for Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/PrivacyIssues https://wiki.debian.org/PrivacyIssues
- zmmmmm 5y agoSadly it's a logical and inevitable consequence of giving up control over our technology. I think the answer has to be, simply never buy a TV that you wouldn't be completely satisfied with as a dumb HDMI display. Cos even if it's not abuse like this, eventually the built in functionality will break, or become too insecure to keep active on your network. In fact it goes for just about any appliance these days: whether it's your fridge, microwave, dryer, doorbell or anything else, if it doesn't have a "dumb" offline mode where you are still completely happy with what it does, don't buy it.
- junon 5y agoThe problem is is that the "dumb" TVs in any amount of quality or high resolution are absurdly rare, expensive or both.
- gruez 5y ago1. buy smart TV 2. don't connect it to the internet 3. enjoy your "dumb" TV
- OneLeggedCat 5y agoThis will work great up until oh about the mid 2010's when vehicles started getting cellular connections "for free." This will be the next thing that happens with TV's, and you won't be able to turn it off.
- kibwen 5y agoStep 4: encase your entire house in a Faraday cage.
- johnywalks 5y agoStep1: Don't buy their products
- BenjiWiebe 5y ago
- pabs3 5y agoI think people could probably make lots of money replacing the vendor OS on TVs with a regular Linux distro with Kodi or similar pre-installed.
- JohnTHaller 5y agoThere are a lot of comments here that appear to be about something other than the specific ad this article is reporting on. This isn't like when Roku was having hovering ads over a live TV broadcast for a product ad that finished. The ad being tested in the linked article is an interactive ad by Fox TV when the viewer is done watching a specific Fox TV show and the end credits are rolling letting viewers know they can watch additional episodes of that show within the FOXNOW app on their smart TV.
- Izkata 5y agoAlmost but not quite, they have a picture of showing the ad while the episode is still playing. It says they pop up "near the end", not during the credits. That said it took a moment for me to realize what people were complaining about. That banner is basically identical to what they've put in TV shows for decades, the only difference being that this one mentions streaming and is interactive, while the TV ones tell you when the show airs and aren't interactive.
- JohnTHaller 5y agoThe credits are rolling on the screen in the picture.
- Izkata 5y agoA pre-credits roll maybe, but it looks like the show is still going above it. But also the positioning looks to me more like it's information about the thing being advertised to the right, with how well it aligns. Though in this case it seems to be the same thing.
- JohnTHaller 5y agoA bunch of shows do their credits like this without any end black screen with the credits. It aligns perfectly by design. It's a Fox show airing on a Fox channel with a Fox smart ad added to it. They likely designed the credit roll and the ad to work together.
- gernb 5y agoNot as bad but still upsetting is the Google TV experience. I got a "top of the line Sony 65 A90J" a few months ago. It has Google TV. Turn it on and the screen is covered with ads for movies and TB shows. There's no way to turn them off except to pick "Basic Mode". If you pick "Basic Mode" then you are not allowed to use the Play Store and further, the "home" screen is just a large ad for "Google TV, ... sign in with Google to get apps etc...." You can still slide load but they clearly want to be able to spy on you and shovel ads in your face. This for a $3k TV I paid for. It's as bad as Windows 11. Further, Sony also wants to spy on you via some service who's name I forgot. AFAIK you can opt out (well, they ask you to agree with a bunch of stuff when you first turn on the TV and I didn't) It's infuriating but I don't know where you can get any TV with high end features that doesn't have all the smart TV crap. You can get industrial displays but they aren't top end panels.
- aix1 5y agoI have exactly this problem with my (admittedly much cheaper) TV. I find it very, very annoying.
- BurningFrog 5y agoAm I the only one who read the article? First: It's from April 1. Second: What's described is not Vizio inserting their own ads wherever they feel like. It's a way for the network to show interactive ads in their ad breaks, instead of the usual "dead video". So, assuming this is not an April Fools thing, the viewer doesn't get more ads, the ads they get are sometimes interactive.
- Lammy 5y ago> First: It's from April 1. Here you go, from March 31, 2022 01:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220331005913/en/ https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220331005913/en/ It's effectively more surveillance even if it's more "more ads".
- BurningFrog 5y agoOk, so it's a real story, thanks! I read it as "as many ads, but now some are interactive".
- plorg 5y agoIf they spent the same amount of time and attention on their UI as they do on ads, maybe my 3.5 yo TV wouldn't take 3 seconds to register a button press on the remote.
- neilv 5y ago> Vizio's Jump Ads initiative launches in beta meaning that you as a Vizio TV owner still have time to voice your concerns. You "still have time to voice your concerns" when you contact the appropriate government officials, the reseller who sold you the TV, etc. Someone trying to spy on you and defraud you doesn't get to set the rules for when you're allowed to object.
- whateveracct 5y agoMoved on from my Vizio to an LG recently. The Vizio software seemed to have so many issues - and you never knew when they'd push an update that breaks stuff.
- spacexsucks 5y agoNo tv of mine is ever connecting to the internet. I have a roku which is connected to a network level block list. The microwave/oven did a silent update and now my oven refuses to turn off and ignores the smart keypress. No more hidden updates for me or my family. Fight and complain to the dealer. Returned tvs is how we get these marketing morons and douche nozzles to shutup
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- fernandogrd 5y agoThis remind me of this framework's blog post: https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs I wish they made themselves dumb tvs, it seems to be a good fit for their business.
- mbreese 5y agoTo me, the scariest part is that the TV is monitoring what you’re watching. If it recognizes it and has an ad for it, it will display the ad. But in order to do that, it first has to figure out what you’re watching. That just seems super creepy.
- chii 5y agoand yet so many people would routinely post pictures, text and tag themselves in photos on facebook. i think a lot of people are plain desensitized to this, or plain don't care. I wish that everyone is as creeped out as you. may be that would affect some change.
- hanspeter 5y agoThere's a considerable difference between intentionally sharing your content with your extended network / the world and then having your entire TV watching history being logged by your TV vendor.
- nr2x 5y agoAnd this is why you can buy a 55” television for $35 on sale.
- citboin 5y agoIANAL but in the USA this might be worth pursuing restitution for the cost of the TV in a small claims court and publicizing it. If a few hundred or few thousand people all did this in a coordinated fashion (via a discord or subreddit) that might be enough to have an effect.
- paxys 5y agoI predict all the usual network TV overlay ads will eventually turn into this. Why put a fixed banner saying "don't forget to catch a new episode of The Voice at 9pm!" during a show when you can make it interactive/clickable and tailor it to specific demographics based on the TV watching patterns?
- sitkack 5y agoI own two Vizio TVs, they should be never connected to the net. Their antennas should be castrated. Vizio is famous for spying on users and making 1/2 of their revenue from data and ads.
- 14 5y agoThose fuckers. What more to say. No commercials was part of the appeal to streaming services. I will never buy one of their TVs
- javajosh 5y agoThis video[0] from 2021 claims that Google TV gives users the option to switch off all smart features and use it as a dumb TV. Looks like Sony and TCL are making models with Google TV[1]. However, if past is prologue then they will probably be off the market in a year. 0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwYPO_SN0C0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwYPO_SN0C0 1 - https://www.bestbuy.com/site/google/learn-about-google-tv/pcmcat1635268106342.c?id=pcmcat1635268106342 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/google/learn-about-google-tv/pc...
- Duwensatzaj 5y agoOr Google introduces new ads like when they screwed over Nvidia Shield users with a mandatory UI update that highlights ads.
- cube00 5y agoEveryone got screwed over, even people who had paid thousands of dollars for Sony TVs got it https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.tvlauncher https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...
- aix1 5y agoI have a TCL TV and had exactly this problem with an Android TV update that got pushed without me wanting it.
- dbttdft 5y agoAds are one of the very first things I imagine when hearing about "Smart TVs". That and slow, unresponsive, buggy menus which are worse than Win9x or Windows XP on a 15 year old PC with K-Lite Codec Pack.
- idonotknowwhy 5y agoK-lite was pretty lightweight actually.
- unnouinceput 5y agoI have a Win XP 15 years old PC with K-Lite Codec Pack, and let me tell you brother, it's lightning fast when dealing with latest TV shows I download from internet. Why? Because I don't use latest and greatest when it's about the media player, I use also an old variant of MPlayer. VLC, which is great and works fast on my workhorse PC, is struggling on that one.
- randyrand 5y agoMy Smart TV is not given internet access. No wifi password. I just have a pc connected.
- andrei_says_ 5y agoWhat kind of legislation could curtail this and how do we get about introducing it?
- julianlam 5y agoSo let me get this straight. We now have TVs that have cameras built in. We now have TVs that display ads without our consent. When do we get the TVs that cannot be turned off? Big Brother awaits.
- spike021 5y agoNot mine. I have a "dumb" 1080p Vizio TV. It was quite budget at the time I bought it, 5 or so years ago. But it does everything I need it for quite well, no problems. I'd like to upgrade to a TV with 4K and HDR eventually but guessing it won't be that easy unless I use a monitor instead.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- TedShiller 5y agoIf users are OK with this, then I don't see a problem. If you don't want ads, don't buy this device.
- kipchak 5y agoI wonder if at some point just cracking the thing open and removing/disabling the wireless card will be commonplace.
- technick 5y agoRun a pihole on your network, block updates and block ads while still enjoying your apps. Adam Bergman, Vizio Ad peddler, is easily reachable on the internet if you want to tell him how you feel about smart tv's and ads.
- pmontra 5y agoI bought a TV hat for one of my Raspberry Pi 3B+. I connected it to my TV antenna on the roof, installed tvheadend (and cursed a little bit the UX but it's mostly a do it once and forget thing), installed TVH Client on my phone and tablet. I ended up with smart devices that can do everything a smart TV can do except that I can bring them around my home and garden (a plus) and have a smaller screen and sometimes worse audio (cons). I don't have ads unless I'm watching free to air TV, because of Blockada. It works as a radio too because basically every radio is also on DVBT here. I'm using VLC as player so I can do popup player (over any app) or play as audio and turn off the screen. If I want a larger screen and I'm in the living room I can turn on my TV. I'm not doing it very often even when I'm in the living room. A 10" tablet at an arm lenght is not much smaller than a TV far away on the wall.
- xenadu02 5y agoIf anyone is looking for an alternative: I bought a Sony Bravia BZ40H Digital Signage Display. It does have Google's Android TV crap but unlike consumer TVs I refused the agreement when asked and the TV works perfectly fine without talking to any Google services or spying on us even though it is connected to the network (I check its traffic). It also has an API, though I haven't made use of it yet. We use it as a dumb monitor to an AppleTV and so far it has worked OK. It doesn't pop anything onto the screen - that would detract from its use as digital signage after all :) I went with this model because I specifically wanted a "Digital Signage" display that had a reasonably good panel (a lot of them are garbage).
- dmolony 5y agoApril fool?
- spacemanmatt 5y agoSeems like nobody is talking about the unbearable quality of Vizio TVs. I got one for free, and I regret it. Navigating the menus is painfully slow. After a few weeks, it started losing about 1-3 scan lines per week. It's unusable at this point, only about 18 months old.
- zxcvbn4038 5y agoToo many of the responses to this article have focused on jail breaking IMO - we should be focused instead on the actual problem of the advertising being injected and the surveillance being used to target ads. TVs have a design life of three years and often ship design changes during different manufacturing runs, so jail breaking every variation of every device when the manufacturer is potentially working against you isn’t feasible. It’s a small percentage of the population that could do any one model of one device. I’d also suggest dropping “smart TVs” in favor of monitors and a sound bar might be a an option, however Roku already took it to the next level by implementing a similar scheme on their devices. If Amazon, Google, and Apple followed then you’d just be in the same situation again. So again IMO better to attack the problem in general rather then a particular make or model.
- pindab0ter 5y agoIsn’t this illegal in some way. If I’m buying the product as advertised and suddenly it does something that I don’t want it to—something that I could not have know at the time of purchase—it is then no longer the product I paid for?
- btdmaster 5y agoMaybe this will get better if you get "Right to Modify" under copyleft GPLv2: https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
- alkonaut 5y agoThat sounds completely unacceptable plus like an easy way to just have all customers disconnect their TVs and just use a third party device like chromecast for watching anything. Samsung does this nowadays too but at least they show ads in g their own content (they broadcast some TV channels) which I think is fine. I can choose to just not watch their content.
- pwdisswordfish9 5y agoSpeaking of Vizio, how is the Conservancy lawsuit going?
- bayouborne 5y agoIn the last 6 months Vizio's stock price has fallen from ~$20 a share to Friday's close of $9.06. They'll get more from progressively fewer until they have nothing at all.
- nazgulsenpai 5y agoMaybe it's time for a PineTV.
- Jayakumark 5y agoThis is click bait ,it is not an ad. You can think like notification, where you are prompted for opening the app , based on end credits on actual video which is used as an ad. This is nothing new , second screen technology is now 10 years old. There are multiple ways 1. Gen 1 ,was more like Use audio cues from TV with phone or remote mic picking up for showing relevant ads 2. Gen 2 ,Use ACR (automatic content recognition ) to identify what you are watching and do ad analytics or present ads/ notification to devices using same wifi/login etc. To escape from any of these , you need to disable ACR and smart recommendations in Roku, LG, Samsung , Vizio, Fire tv etc.. or buy a dumb Tv. Almost all smart tv have one or more ACRs. They do a screengrab or audio grab every few seconds and send to check fingerprint to identify what’s watched. Also every video you watch from streaming platforms have tracking Id inside from Nielsen Gracenote or something similar and reports back the data as you watch them along with information of which devices it’s being watched on. So technically it can identify your video that’s being played on tv - is from any pirated website or torrent. HDMI CEC also can coordinate to recognize if it was played from a real Blu-ray or not. Might be able escape if you go HDMI without CEC on smart tv, or go to same argument buy Dumb TV. Put it this way , As long as you are using internet connected devices/TV , you are not escaping tracking what you are watching.
- beeboop 5y agoIt's a prompt to direct the user to a paid service that has a limited free selection. How in the world is that not an ad?
- Jayakumark 5y agoWhat i meant was, technically this is a Promo not an Ad. The End credits itself was overlayed on the Same Show Welcome to Flatch , pointing to a deep link for the same show in Fox Now App. All episodes in this show are free.
- Jayakumark 5y agoThis is little misleading ,it is not a banner ad. You can think like notification, where you are prompted for opening the app , based on end credits on actual video which is used as an ad. This is nothing new , second screen technology is now 10 years old. There are multiple ways 1. Gen 1 ,was more like Use audio cues from TV with phone or remote mic picking up for showing relevant ads 2. Gen 2 ,Use ACR (automatic content recognition ) to identify what you are watching and do ad analytics or present ads/ notification to devices using same wifi/login etc. It can even present with a add to shopping cart button on tv or phone , while an ad is playing. To escape from any of these , you need to disable ACR and smart recommendations in Roku, LG, Samsung , Vizio, Fire tv etc.. or buy a dumb Tv. Almost all smart tv have one or more ACRs. They do a screengrab or audio grab every few seconds and send to check fingerprint to identify what’s watched. Also almost every video you watch on TV has tracking Id inside from Nielsen Gracenote or something similar and reports back the data as you watch them along with information of which devices it’s being watched on. So technically they have the capability to identify your video that’s being played on tv - is from any pirated website or torrent. HDMI CEC also can coordinate to recognize if it was played from a real Blu-ray or not. Might be able escape if you go HDMI without CEC on smart tv, or go to same argument buy Dumb TV. Put it this way , As long as you are using internet connected devices/TV , you are not escaping being tracked of what you are watching.