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Facebook paid Republican strategy firm to malign TikTok
- datalopers 5y agoFacebook is using the same firm to malign Roblox with the same strategy.
- farco12 5y agoWould you mind speaking more to this or providing a link?
- AlexandrB 5y agoLike most adults, most of what I know about Roblox comes secondhand from the media. Recently I saw[1] a pretty damning video about Roblox's lack of moderation and exploitation of its users. My basic perception at this point is that TikTok, Facebook, and Roblox all deserve each other. Hopefully they waste their money attacking each other until they mutually self-destruct. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY
- pessimizer 5y agoThat damning video could have been indirectly paid for by Facebook. I'm a fan of the Shut Up Sit Down guys, but they are pros.
- elsewhen 5y agohttps://archive.ph/qcoo9 https://archive.ph/qcoo9
- btbuildem 5y agoThank you
- tomatowurst 5y agoAt what point does: - having Facebook/Meta experience on your resume starts hurting you against others who don't - selling your company to Facebook/Meta or product on it hurts your brand and perceived to be immoral Is Facebook/Meta the Tobacco company of our generation? The harmful effects of smoking were covered up for almost a century, much as the impact of mass remote dopamine manipulation is not as prolific.
- spiderfarmer 5y agoIt already does. I spoke to several trainees that don't want companies like Facebook or Shell on their resume. Problem is those companies start to attract people that thrive in toxic cultures, worsening the problem.
- sgt 5y agoWhy is Shell so bad? I spoke to a Shell employee the other day and the guy couldn't stop talking about all the great things they are doing for the environment and with new green technologies. /s
- woliveirajr 5y agoThere's a good book about it: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1476637.Political_Ponerology https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1476637.Political_Ponero...
- 0des 5y agoI look at it less like smoking and more like obesity because people know its bad, but will foam at the mouth if someone dares address it.
- jka 5y agoThere were vocal complaints about the introduction of indoor smoking bans in the UK and Ireland before they were enacted; in practice the vast majority of people seemed happier afterwards. Part of the playbook of any addiction-based industry is to encourage outrage at the prospect of the product being restricted; it builds their moat and delays the resolution of the problem (allowing their revenue streams to continue for longer).
- account-5 5y agoTL;DR: Company a threat to American children pays a company to accuse another company that's a threat to American children of being a threat to American children.
- 0des 5y agoIts a negative for everyone, no nationality or age required
- sudden_dystopia 5y agoThey should have paid more. Perhaps they could have been useful for once.
- SilasX 5y ago“Can you believe these jackals obfuscated the data that would have told us our advertising was ineffective?!”
- zerop 5y agoIf there is anything happening around you which influences, it is staged and driven by someone.
- elsewhen 5y agohttp://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- JKCalhoun 5y ago> Of the stories you read in traditional media that aren't about politics, crimes, or disasters, more than half probably come from PR firms. Stories not about politics, crimes, or disasters ... are not news? But I would add corporate malfeasance to the list of "politics, crimes, or disasters" (or does that count as crime?).
- croon 5y agoWhat influenced you to believe that?
- SpicyLemonZest 5y agoI was skeptical for precisely that reason, so despite the fact that it isn't a secret (see for example https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/checks-balances-journalism-pr/2021/06/04/df35c110-b3fa-11eb-9059-d8176b9e3798_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/checks-balanc...) I didn't believe it until I saw the sausage getting made. Obviously I understand why you might not trust some random guy on this, but I've personally seen a billion dollar company where an outright majority of news coverage originated with its PR team, and nobody involved found this atypical or strange.
- croon 5y agoI'm not saying the concept isn't real, I'm just generally skeptical of prescriptive statements such as GGP. There are plenty of things happening around me that influence me, like kind gestures big or small, the birth of my children, learning about things (that are verifiable), which I can assure you are not staged or driven by someone.
- wanda 5y agoIsn't this what all firms do to each other, all the time? Like, isn't this just normal business these days? Isn't this sort of thing a natural eventuality in a capitalist world? Capitalism crowns the person who wins, regardless of how they won. And besides, all press is good press because it's all exposure. Why wouldn't you do this sort of thing? It's only wrong to get caught. And even then, you can pay for a lawyer to prove that you were either: - not doing anything wrong, - not legitimately caught, - or simply giving your opinion.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y agoPositive PR, where you pay someone to go around convincing reporters how great you are, is normal business and I'm not sure it could ever be otherwise. Negative campaigns that function solely to tear down your opponents, as the article says (and my experience matches), are relatively uncommon outside of politics.
- Jcowell 5y agoI disagree, the PC vs Mac is arguably not positive PR towards the PC industry but was very popular back when it aired. Even now Samsung sometimes poke fun at Apple mistakes. I would argue micro aggressive advertising is negative PR just with lipstick on it.
- afavour 5y agoThere’s a pretty large difference though. PC vs Mac were explicitly adverts, you knew Apple made them. This article describes the firm placing op-eds from “concerned parents” that they drafted themselves with no indication of their or Meta’s involvement. Whole different level.
- Loughla 5y agoThere's a pretty big difference between comparing the cool Justin Long and nerdy John Hodgman (I would argue those character roles are backwards from what they should be) and a massively cynical scare theater campaign about how a Chinese company is stealing your children's data, negatively impacting their mental health, and causing destruction of property from a company that makes money using your children's data and negatively impacting everyone's mental health.
- swayvil 5y ago
- thenerdhead 5y agoPersuasive tech company accuses persuasive tech company that its tech is too persuasive.
- rvz 5y ago
- HNresetPass 5y agoThat's not true, Facebook did not spread misinformation because Facebook decides what misinformation is
- throwaway29303 5y agoThey still haven't learned a thing. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/12/facebook-pr-firm-google https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/12/facebook-...
- h2odragon 5y agoI would still like to see someone brag about the "Facebook whistle blower" campaign. That was the most remarkable media ballet in years, someone paid a lot for that. I can't help but wonder if it was FB behind it, "all publicity is good publicity." And despite the amazing success of the campaign at raising "awareness" of the campaign, it didn't have any apparent aim or effect beyond that. We've seen that before from FB, vast resource deployed with intricate execution towards trivial goals.
- klabb3 5y agoIirc the govt instituted bounties on corporate malfeasance fines to whistleblowers (in % - so can be huge), so there are lawfirms that target and finance whistleblowers. There are even spooks-for-hire who work the targets. It's fascinating. So no, doesn't seem like a hit job at all, just a good mix of first-order incentives. The media balleting is part of the defense, but also it was really informative for many. EDIT: forgot the media reaction that indeed seemed coordinated and bold. Part of that is just media hating Facebook. They take any chance they get.
- specialist 5y agoKara Swisher, for one, has stated the character assassination of whistleblowers is just part of Facebook's playbook. Make of that what you will. She's far too cozy to tech founders and leaders for my tastes, with no apparent axe to grind, so I lean towards she's just relating an open secret. For reference, Ronan Farrow names names and relates his own lived experience. Among a zillion other similar accounts. (Sibel Edwards, Snowden, the TV journalist couple that tried to report on illegal doping of dairy cows, ad nauseum.) So I assume paid harrassment is standard practice. Could be worse. At least killing whistleblowers is rare in the USA.
- rubyist5eva 5y agoDont' all massive corps do this against their competition?
- vijaybritto 5y agoAt this point I simply would not be surprised even if Facebook is accused of murder
- krapp 5y agoWhy not, they've already been accused of genocide.
- troll_v_bridge 5y agoShould this story have a disclaimer that the paper is owned by the founder of Amazon, who is a competitor?
- newsclues 5y agoWhat social network does Amazon own?
- ChoGGi 5y agoFacebook market place...? Not really sure either
- bmelton 5y agoTwitch
- newsclues 5y agoInteresting, I e never considered them social media, although the content delivery platform does have social aspects. I don’t think twitch or YouTube are the same as Facebook or Twitter.
- mechanical_bear 5y agoIt’s digital advertising, not social media that is the competition.
- curiousgal 5y ago> who is a competitor It is? In which markets?
- sharperguy 5y agoAmazon owns twitch and Facebook runs Facebook gaming which is a direct competitor. Amazon Prime video is also an indirect competitor to other time wasting products like social media apps / video sharing etc. edit: Also don't forget data collection / AI / advertising.
- gadders 5y agoWhere does the Republican angle come in to it?
- josefresco 5y agoFTA: "The firm is one of the biggest recipients of Republican campaign spending, earning more than $237 million in 2020, according to data compiled by OpenSecrets. Its biggest payments came from national GOP congressional committees and America First Action, a pro-Trump super PAC."
- gadders 5y agoI guess, but that's not massively relevant to the story, is it? It looks like they've tried to shoe-horn in a political angle.
- throwaway2474 5y agoSerious question, for those with more experience than me “in the game” running big successful companies: are dirty tactics like this (and worse) par for the course and generally expected, and it’s sort of understood that the outsiders/general public are shielded from it? Or is it actually shocking? It often seems like there’s two “worlds” operating at the same time. In one, there’s outrage and indignation at this sort of thing. In the other, that public outrage is just another item in the chess game, to be weaponised against your competitors as appropriate. But maybe that’s too pessimistic of a view, and not all industries are like this? I’m genuinely curious.
- lupire 5y agoYes. In a competitive environment with no law/enforcement, anyone who doesn't cheat loses to someone who does. This is the state of nature, law of the jungle.
- specialist 5y agoThe game is broken when honest players have to cheat to be competitive.
- alphabetting 5y agoThis is par for the course. Done by majority of big corps and nothing wrong with it imo. Stating TikTok is a danger isn't a stretch. The hyperventilating in this piece is hyped up by republican and FB angles but almost every big company is doing comms like this.
- _3u10 5y agoSome have even bought the entire newspaper to make sure it stays on message.
- fairity 5y agoOn average, these sorts of undermining tactics are uncommon because most companies have limited resources that are better spent on improving their own product or service. That said, for the subset of companies that operate in fiercely competitive markets with well-funded players, this sort of activity is common. In my prior company, where 2 competitors & us had raised 9 figures in venture capital, we found multiple instances of such undermining attacks going on from 1 of the competitors. Although we never engaged in such activities, it was clear to me that we were at a slight disadvantage due to our lack of willingness. Imo, such activities require sociopathic leadership, and unfortunately, that sort of personality is overrepresented in the c-suite.
- hereforphone 5y agoCompletely unnecessary. TikTok maligns itself.
- pluc 5y agoHow convinced are you that your opinion is coming from actions of TikTok itself and not reports of alleged actions by TikTok? The American public (and by association, a large controlling part of the digital hivemind) is very easy to sway
- alphabetting 5y ago> very easy to sway opinion of American public Compared to what? Chinese public?
- pluc 5y agoCompared to the non-average American public that might have an educated opinion about any given topic
- newhotelowner 5y agoFacebook also gave cheap ad rates to BJP[1] (Party of the current prime minister of India). Facebook seems like align more with the right group. [1]https://thewire.in/political-economy/for-campaign-ads-on-facebook-bjp-almost-always-gets-better-bang-for-the-buck-report https://thewire.in/political-economy/for-campaign-ads-on-fac...
- annadane 5y agoThey absolutely do. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/mark-zuckerberg-joel-kaplan-facebook-alex-jones https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/mark-zuckerberg...
- edmundsauto 5y agoThat isn't how it works. The study clearly states that the targeting criteria was not included in the analysis. If you look at any 2 advertisers running their own campaigns, and one is a savvier user of auction based ad systems, a 29% difference in CPM excluding targeting is common.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
- JadeNB 5y agoI'm all for Bezos-focussed conspiracy theories, but I don't think you need a conspiracy theory to explain negative coverage of Facebook.
- ncr100 5y agoMeh. WP reports negatives on Amazon too.
- idrios 5y agoI quit Facebook in 2016 because my news feed became filled with politics. Washington Post was among the biggest offenders as news producers trying to stir up controversy and being heavily politically slanted while acting like they're neutral (I'll never forget that they ran 16 anti-Bernie Sanders stories in one day). If this kind of article is making it to the front of HN then I may quit HN too.
- gentleman11 5y ago
- JKCalhoun 5y ago> Meta spokesperson Andy Stone defended the campaign by saying, “We believe all platforms, including TikTok, should face a level of scrutiny consistent with their growing success.” Gross — the way they try to spin it.
- maxlamb 5y agoPaying a company to spread dirt on your competitor is not bribery.
- spamizbad 5y agoHere’s what’s sad about this; TikTok was a product clearly built for “younger” users (Gen Z, younger millennials) the same way Facebook was in the aughts for its youthful cohort (older millennials). Facebook then evolved their product and made massive inroads with older audiences, sending their value and userbase soaring… point. But in doing so Facebook left younger users underserved they chose TikTok. And now to paper over their product failure they’re crying to the government.
- andrewclunn 5y agoWell that's not entirely true. Instagram (a Meta property) is more the competitor to TikTok. And this isn't crying to the government. This is trying to push the dangers of TikTok on right wing cultural outlets. The thing is, this is true, the incentives of TikTok are not pro-social. Then again, neither are those of Instagram (or Facebook for that matter).
- lupire 5y agoHas FB met any kids? "Mom say TikTok will corrupt my morals" is recruiting campaign, not a destructive attack.
- andrewclunn 5y agoNot in many culturally conservative households. These parents exert a lot more control over what their children are exposed to / allowed to engage with.
- AlexandrB 5y agoThey _try_ to exert a lot more control over what their children are exposed to. I'm not sure they're always successful.
- dylan604 5y agoThis is definitely true in my case. The harder they tried, the more I pushed back. Also, as anecdotal evidence, there's a reason there's a stereotype of PKs (preacher's kids).
- PaulHoule 5y ago(1) Facebook has consistently acted on a partisan basis supporting Republicans and right-wing causes as much as it can. Any normal company would have thrown Sheryl Steinberg under the bus for funding anti-semitic conspiracy theories but that kind of stuff is at the DNA core of Facebook. (2) That doesn't mean TikTok isn't toxic.
- legalcorrection 5y agoSo even if that's true, every other big tech company supports left wingers and left-wing causes.
- naoqj 5y ago>The White House is briefing TikTok stars about the war in Ukraine >“We recognize this is a critically important avenue in the way the American public is finding out about the latest,” said the White House director of digital strategy, Rob Flaherty, “so we wanted to make sure you had the latest information from an authoritative source.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/11/tik-tok-ukraine-white-house/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/11/tik-tok...
- throwaway4good 5y agoIt is not unlikely that if Trump had won a second term, then TikTok would have been banned in the US. Facebook made a gamble though and as a downside they probably have less goodwill with the current administration compared to what they could have had.
- api 5y agoI agree with both sides. Facebook is right that TikTok is Chinese government spyware. TikTok is right that Facebook is human-farming advertising spyware.
- rayiner 5y agoMy 9 year old watches TikTok, and I've got mixed feelings. My kid is really into videos of other kids telling jokes, making slime, doing puzzles, etc. Frankly I think that's better than the vapid dreck on Disney--and infinitely better than social media, which would just stoke the tweener social drama. (We allow TikTok but not any form of social media.) Obviously there is less age-appropriate content on there too. But the algorithm is pretty good about not surfacing that material unless you're looking for it.
- advisedwang 5y agoI'm interested to see that you don't count TikTok as social media. Does your 9yo have friends on TikTok? I sometimes see the younger crowd often follow each other on TikTok and make posts primarily intended for their friends. This seems a very different usage pattern from mostly watching strangers on the for you page. Maybe 9 is too young for that mode though.
- rayiner 5y agoShe uses it more like YouTube. The algorithm does a good job of feeding her videos related to her interests: puzzles, slime, Pyramids, etc.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rchaud 5y agoKids seem to be far more vulnerable to become addicted to video-based social media than text-based. I say this as a mid-30s person who saw how obssessed teens and 20-somethings were with Youtubers. For them, all they knew about video was from Youtube, so they accepted the lack of polish that an older person like could not. I have distraction issues with doomscrolling text feeds, but none whatsoever w/ TT because I dont' find super short videos entertaining. But it's probably very different for those who're exposed to it from a young age.
- nmilo 5y agoWhat is a "Republican strategy firm?" A consulting firm with the Republican party as one of their clients? What's the point of making "Republican" so prominent in the article? Is it just to use the negative connotation most WP readers have about the Republican party to malign Facebook a little more? It seems like we're just spectating an op-ed war, and discussing this article as if there's any meaning to it other than to malign Facebook.
- nneonneo 5y ago> The Arlington, Va.-based firm advertises on its website that it brings “a right-of-center perspective to solve marketing challenges” and can deploy field teams “anywhere in the country within 48 hours.” The firm itself seems to advertise a “republican” outlook, and was also apparently founded initially as a strategy firm for the Republican Party.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Clubber 5y agoYes, political division sells papers. I looked for the "opinion" label, which is used to justify this type of manipulation but didn't see one. It's an article manipulating you talking about how Facebook uses a company that the GOP uses (and probably Dems too) to manipulate you. I suspect it wouldn't mention that some of these articles this company uses to manipulate you are probably published in The Washington Post, but that's just "opinion," so it's ok to say.
- ModernMech 5y agoFirst of all the word Republican does not even appear in the title of the wall piece. It appears in the first paragraph to characterize the firm, which is a fact and how they characterize themselves. The word Republican appears a total of 4 times in the entire price. I’m really failing to see manipulation or opinions. Can you point them out?
- 5y ago
- eric_b 5y agoWhy the focus on the fact that it was a Republican strategy firm? Why does that matter? Being the Washington Post, I'm sure it's to insinuate that all the bad things that happen are Republican-led. Only the GOP plays dirty tricks, right? After the Steele dossier, the Biden laptop, the Russia collusion misinformation campaign, and willfully hiding the mental decline of the current president - you'd think we'd get past the whole "only Republicans bad" narrative. But I guess that just goes to show how successfully the WashPo and others are running their own strategies to push agendas...
- hardware2win 5y agoThey cannot compete with the product so here we go Facebooks main site is less responsive than visual studio on my school lap and i cannot use messenger on my phone from web browser cuz they want me to install spyware Once i graduate i dont think ill use this mess more than once a month for 5mins
- Lamad123 5y agoI am sure Sandberg is evil enough to do such stuff (she et al. have even blessed bloodshed in multiple countries), but I find it kinda ironic this is published in a newspaper owned by another one of these evil companies.
- bastardoperator 5y agoGen-Z doesn't give a damn about Facebook, or Republicans.
- rchaud 5y agoGen Z is the largest or second largest user group for Instagram, a wholly owned subsidiary of FB. Saying that X doesn't care about FB indicates ignorance of the simple fact that one is spending a lot of time reading what FB thinks you should be reading.
- bastardoperator 5y agoThat's like saying Gen Z loves Office365 because they play XBox. It's just simply not the case. Facebook and Instagram are different products, Facebook is bleeding millions of users, and growth rates for Instagram are levelling out. These are just facts and it's mostly because Gen Z.
- hnburnsy 5y ago>The campaign includes placing op-eds and letters to the editor in major regional news outlets, promoting dubious stories about alleged TikTok trends that actually originated on Facebook, and pushing to draw political reporters and local politicians into helping take down its biggest competitor. These bare-knuckle tactics... Letters to the editor and soliciting reporters is considered "bare-knuckle"!?! >In October, Targeted Victory worked to spread rumors of the “Slap a Teacher TikTok challenge” in local news, touting a local news report on the alleged challenge in Hawaii. In reality, no such challenge existed on TikTok. Again, the rumor started on Facebook, according to a series of Facebook posts first documented by Insider. I guess this was not communicated to the entire WaPo newsroom... https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/06/tiktok-slap-teacher-challenge/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/06/tiktok-slap... https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/10/08/tiktok-teacher-slap-louisiana/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/10/08/tiktok-t...
- mayowaxcvi 5y agoThe Washington Post (a media organisation) malign Meta/Facebook (a media organisation) who were maligning TikTok (a media organisation). Perhaps the most blatant case of "Always accuse your enemy of exactly what you are doing yourself."
- numair 5y agoIn case you think this is some esoteric issue involving kids’ stuff — keep in mind that the founder of TikTok was one of the most balanced voices within China, who argued that the country needed to engage with the West in a healthier manner. Zuckerberg et al and their incessant lobbying for that TikTok ban basically vaporized that guy’s pull within China, which eliminated a super-valuable asset for the West. So, yeah, Facebook continues to be the single greatest threat to Western society outside of Russia. These are serious issues with serious consequences.
- eunos 5y agoTrump (and Pompeo) destroys the liberal oriented ideology in China much more effectively than whatever Xi did.
- steve76 5y ago[dead]
- vixen99 5y agoPlease explain?
- Jackpillar 5y ago
- j16sdiz 5y ago> one of the most balanced voices within China Except TikTok, like Facebook, is not available in China. The 抖音 platform cannot see posts from tiktok.
- TheRealNGenius 5y agoThey're talking about the founder. You'd know this if your reading comprehension skills were up to par with your knowledge of what country TikTok isn't in. Otherwise, that tidbit is tangential at best, and doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary of the quoted claim.
- FYYFFF 5y ago
- atotic 5y agoI was wondering where did all these "I started with fresh account, randomly clicked, and found something awful" articles about TikTok came from. Now I know. It was so puzzling, because my experience has been so different. TikTok is the most positive, large scale, social platform I've ever used. It has exposed me to disabled people's, LGBTQ, POV and all kinds of neat things I'd have never even thought of. California forever, goodbye!
- FYYFFF 5y ago
- amin 5y agoA media company publishing a negative article on Facebook is like Ford publishing a negative article on Tesla
- corn13read2 5y agoSilly clickbait title. Why not say Democrat Facebook paid Republican strategy firm to malign Democrat TikTok?
- Simon_O_Rourke 5y agoJust when you think those guys can't stoop any lower, they go and surprise you yet again.
- johndfsgdgdfg 5y agoThis is what I've been saying for months. TikTok has been an instrumental tool to help fight racist right wing propaganda. We've to join in with China and fight racist right wing propaganda against China.
- quantified 5y agoI have argued in the past that the real problem of misinformation lies with users not FB. However, when FB itself actively supports the sourcing of false info that endangers teachers to boot, they should get the hammer.
- specialist 5y agoThe part I find most dumb about these "revelations" is that Facebook doesn't even bother to hide their efforts. No shame, no contrition. So normalized this kind of crap has become.
- kevwil 5y agoLOL - WaPo and Facebook slinging political mud, what a surprise! The real surprise is that anyone still trusts what social media and ancient media oligarchs say.
- greenyoda 5y agoWhile this story of Facebook smearing TikTok is getting all of HN's attention today, a perhaps more important story about Facebook is being ignored: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30855113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30855113 Summary: "A lawsuit accusing Meta Platforms Inc.’s Facebook of overstating its advertising audience got a lot bigger Tuesday when a court expanded the pool of plaintiffs to include more than 2 million small ad buyers. Dismissing what he called a “blunderbuss of objections” by the company, a federal judge in San Francisco ruled that the case can proceed as a class action on behalf of small business owners and individuals who bought ads on Facebook or Instagram since Aug. 15, 2014. The decision is another setback for the social networking giant after court filings in 2021 revealed that its audience-measuring tool was known by high-ranking Facebook executives to be unreliable because it was skewed by fake and duplicate accounts."
- AbrahamParangi 5y agoThe “maligning” is true though. TikTok should be banned in the US because everything that people hate about Facebook (unaccountable, society warping) is also true of TikTok in addition to being controlled by an adversarial state. It is a strictly worse problem. Imagine if most papers or news channels in the US were controlled by a single, foreign, adversarial country. That’s what TikTok is for gen z.