16 ms·

The Wisdom in Kung Fu Panda

285 points by moviewise 5y ago

clutchski 5y ago
The Panda is also a bumbling unskilled male who fails upwards while being supported by a female who put in years of work to build real expertise (Tigress).
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Because the Tigress paints inside the line and follows all the rules. Where Oogway specifically chooses Po because he is a self learner and innovates and does things in an unconventional way. Which is why he is the one who beats Tai Lung.
blue16 5y ago
Kung-Fu Panda is an under-rated trilogy. The relation to philosophy and ethics is strong and very poignant
h2odragon 5y ago
One of the under-appreciated bits of wisdom in this movie, to my mind, is "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to furniture." Sure, it works out for the implausibly resilient cartoon panda but even he suffers some. It's never that pleasant in the real world.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bitwize 5y ago
  I loved that bit because it was an explicit reference to the Chinese legend of Wan Hu, the mandarin who attempted to do just that. That's probably one of the reasons why the Chinese animation industry panicked upon Kung Fu Panda's release, judging the West to be doing better Chinese-themed animation than the Chinese were capable of at the time.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  > "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to furniture." Do not attempt to fly by means of {VC Money} fastened to {hyper-growth mindset}
- a_e_k 5y ago
  That calls to mind one of my favorite bits from RFC 1925 ("The Twelve Networking Truths") [0]: > With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1925 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1925
AntonioCao 5y ago
Eric Weinstein also wrote an excellent analysis of Kung Fu Panda on Quora. https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-developing-the-capability-to-be-an-awesome-Kung-Fu-fighter-How-does-he-shift-from-being-a-total-fat-slob-to-becoming-capable-of-defeating-Tai-Lung https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-de...
- zemptime 5y ago
  I love Kung Fu Panda! It secretly became my favorite movie. Secretly, because it wasn't until years after I'd seen it that I realized how much I liked it compared to... every other movie.
- hwers 5y ago
  Immediately what I thought of. I miss this era of Weinstein when he stuck to conveying things the way he thought of them (with all the underlying mathematical abstractions intact) rather than simplify it to reach a broader audience.
colesantiago 5y ago
This is just an animated movie cartoon right, is it really that deep?
- Ducki 5y ago
  Who says cartoons/animations can't go deep? Take a look at Bojack Horseman.
  - andi999 5y ago
    too deep
  - kgwxd 5y ago
    After watching it, just reading the name "Bojack" turns my current mood 3 shades greyer.
    - andi999 5y ago
      Doesnt it make you feel good you didnt pursue the Hollywood dream?
  - thorin 5y ago
    Or Rick and Morty, The Midnight Gospel, Studio Ghibli?
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Rick and Morty fakes a lot of its depth with nonsense technobabble, akin to Evangeleon's biblical references which are largely nonsense. The good bits of Rick and Morty are very short, maybe 1-minute sections of episodes. Morty's relationship with Planetina was one of the deeper moments of all of season 5, except it is summarized in maybe 90-seconds of story at the most. And its really not much deeper than "some eco-friendly people turn out to be eco-terrorists", and that's enough to ruin a relationship. Yeah, sucks for Morty, but... its not exactly a particularly deep message (deep in the context of the rest of the show, yes. And I definitely enjoy those kinds of moments. But something needs to be longer than 90-seconds of story for me to call it "deep", especially compared to other things I've seen) ---------- I dunno, as far as technobabble / nonsense words go, I prefer Evangeleon from that perspective. There's a lot to be said about Shinji's exploration of his depression (caused by Gendo, his father's, obsession over the Human Instrumentality Project). Rick is just a toxic asshole that the show forces you to watch. Someone like Morty should have run away / cut Rick out of his life a long long time ago. At least in Evangelion, Shinji is actively trying to cut out the entire mecha-project out of his life (running away multiple times), but since Shinji is one of the few candidates who can pilot the mech, he's forced back into the job over-and-over again (unlike Morty who seems to just be this passive guy who is needlessly picked on by Rick for 5 seasons). If nothing really matters, then Morty could just leave and that's that (and the fact that this hasn't been explored across ~5 seasons shows the limitations of the relatively shallow, episodic format... forcing Rick and Morty to be friends again by the start of the next episode to keep things serialized). What makes Shinji's situation unique is that Shinji's worth as a pilot is more than he gives credit for, and each time he tries to leave, a disaster occurs. Each time Shinji does fight, a disaster also occurs by his hands. So Shinji's confusion and depression is far more understanding. Ex: Shinji's relationship with Toji evolves over a few episodes, and is deeper than all 5 season's of Morty's development. Shinji is forced to pilot the mech in episode 1. Shinji's inexperience with the mech causes collateral damage, and Toji's sister gets trapped in the rubble. Toji bullies Shinji until Shinji saves him in the next fight, as Toji didn't realize the issues of being a pilot. The arc culminates as Toji himself becomes a pilot, and Shinji is forced by his father to destroy Toji's mech. Shinji is being forced to follow Gendo (his father's) plans as scripted out by "The Dead Sea Scrolls" (aka: technobabble), but the important thing is that Gendo's ambition for the project is so great, he's willing to traumatize his own son over it. Shinji x Toji's relationship is just one sacrifice Gendo makes, and Shinji's depression goes even deeper because of it.
csytan 5y ago
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That's why it is called the present" - Master Oogway
- mc32 5y ago
  I know I'm being too literal but I kinda hate quips like that which rely on turns of phrases. They are completely devoid of any basis. I'm sure there are languages that don't have the duality of gift/present as well as a coincidence in meaning for the word meaning "now". I mean, sure, it's "aunt cute" or whatever but other than that it has not meaning.
  - simonh 5y ago
    It has very profound meaning, and always living in the now is a central tenet of Buddhist philosophy.
  - chucksta 5y ago
    >There is basis, yesterday did in fact happen in the past and tomorrow can not be said with certainty. >There are many phrases in many languages that don't have translations to others or may mean something different. See the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as little as "no worries" without translation can still be lost in translation culture.
    - sjmm1989 5y ago
      > See the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as little as "no worries" without translation can still be lost in translation culture. Exactly. You may know the word for 'worry' or 'worries', but you may not know the word for 'no'. And in that moment you could be misinterpreting the intentions and actions/words of a person who only told you 'don't worry'. Meanwhile, you are big worrying.
  - sjmm1989 5y ago
    > They are completely devoid of any basis. No pal, that's just you and your inability to accept that you may not know everything there is to know, and so you cannot accept that these play on words may carry wisdom in them that you are not aware of yet, or just haven't quite cognized. And pal... Duality is in almost nearly everything. It's not language specific. It's universe specific. In our reality, there is generally almost always an equal and opposite to everything. If you don't know what somethings equal or opposite is yet, you just have yet to find it. This seems to be true regardless of whoever argues, because all it takes is time to find that proof. Even Time has its own equal and opposite. Space. Through time you travel when moving through space, but in space you can travel through time as well by not moving at all... So yeah, it's not even a case of you being too literal. You are just being obtuse or ignorant. Maybe even arrogant. But not too literal.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
froggertoaster 5y ago
Fun fact: this movie sparked a huge cultural debate in China because of how accurate to Chinese culture it was. The center of the debate was the perception that Westerners were better at making a movie with accurate Chinese cultural elements than the Chinese themselves. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-film-panda/kung-fu-panda-prompts-soul-searching-in-china-idUSPEK34047220080705 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-film-panda/kung-fu-...
- autarch 5y ago
  It's little more complex than that. The Accented Cinema YT channel has an excellent video on this topic - https://youtu.be/tCCRuUlJ_nA https://youtu.be/tCCRuUlJ_nA
  - froggertoaster 5y ago
    How dare you one up me with nuance! :P Thanks for the link, I'll definitely give this a watch.
  - MontagFTB 5y ago
    That was a great video - thank you for the share!
    - randmeerkat 5y ago
      It was excellent and is definitely worth the time. Thanks!
  - moviewise 5y ago
    I feel that there is a difference between "believe in yourself" and "embrace who you are / love yourself." The former is about confidence, the latter is about ego.
- kazinator 5y ago
  Information about China is easily available outside of Chine, not to mention that there are large numbers of Chinese people living abroad. A movie made outside of China that contains elements of traditional Chinese culture won't be spoiled with corrections to fit communist ideals and narratives.
bashmelek 5y ago
The part of the scroll being blank also goes way back, reminiscent of the “true and wordless scripture” of Buddhism
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Not to start a huge philosophy argument but I always only understood it as "the real power to change things around is only in you -- no magic scrolls will help you with that". In a very typical (and loved by me) Buddhism fashion you have the protagonist of a tale e.g. be promised wisdom or power if they climb a mountain and talk to the monks on top and eventually it turns out that while you were climbing the mountain you gained the wisdom and strength you were seeking. Arriving at the top of the mountain was just the event that is supposed to make you aware that you have now succeeded. I viewed Kung Fu Panda part 1 similarly. If you go through all the trials to gain the Dragon Scroll and finish them successfully then you ALREADY ARE the "dragon warrior". You don't no need scroll for that. That's why it's empty. Not just empty; it's a mirror. To show you that the wisdom and power are already inside you. That's what I got out of it.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  I'm no expert on Chinese culture. But the message is at least as old as "Journey to the West" (aka: 'that monkey king story'). Where Tang Sanzang travels westward in search of paradise. At the end of the trip, he fails to find paradise, and Buddha IIRC tells him to turn around and look back upon his journey. Tang Sanzang created paradise in his time, by solving all the issues of the people along the way. It was the journey that made paradise, not the end. If he just teleported to the West, there would have been no paradise. ------ Probably a Buddhism thing that keeps coming up over and over again over the centuries. But I liked that one.
glutamate 5y ago
Obligatory link to Slavoj Žižek's take on Kong Fu Panda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCD3hg6OEQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCD3hg6OEQw
- moviewise 5y ago
  "The friend noticed there above the entrance to the house, a horseshoe, which I don't know how it is here. In Europe it is a superstitious item preventing evil spirits to enter the house. So the friend asked Niels Bohr, but what you mean aren't you a scientist? Do you believe in this? Niels Bohr says, of course, I'm not crazy, I don't. So the friend asked him, why do you have it there? You know what Neils Bohr answered? He said, of course I don't believe in it, but I have it there because I was told that it works even if you don't believe in it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr
toastercat 5y ago
Great article! Kung Fu Panda remains in my memory even so many years after I've watched it because of its memorable quotes, but also because of the tragic and relatable motivation of its villain (Tai Lung). I've always found the exchange between Tai Lung and Shifu towards the end of the film to be profoundly sad, partly because of the great vocal performance by Ian McShane: > Who filled my head with dreams? Who drove me to train until my bones cracked? Who denied me my destiny? [...] All I ever did, I did to make you proud. Tell me how proud you are, Shifu! Tell me! > I have always been proud of you. From the first moment, I've been proud of you. And it was my pride that blinded me. I loved you too much to see what you were becoming, what I was turning you into. I'm sorry. There's also brief moment where Tai Lung's facial expression changes to hint that he took the apology to heart. I'm not used to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films!
- lotsofspots 5y ago
  An apology that came twenty years too late!
- tzs 5y ago
  > I'm not used to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films! I think it was Heinlein who when asked how to write a good novel for juveniles said that you write a good novel and then take out the sex scenes. The major studios have long been following that approach with their big-budget animated films.
firasd 5y ago
I actually have found comfort in my personal life from thinking about that little passage where the panda frets, "Maybe I should just quit and go back to making noodles", and the guru responds, "Quit, don't quit. Noodles, don't noodles. You are too concerned about what was and what will be." Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. There is a similar point from Marcus Aurelius where he says (in this old timey translation): "Let not future things disturb thee, for thou wilt come to them... having with thee the same reason which now thou usest." PS. Another example of unexpectedly good writing is when the student-turned-bad-guy bitterly says, "What I ever did, I did to make you proud! Tell me how proud you are, Shifu", and then after a pause Shifu replies with genuine agreement: "I have always been proud of you... And it was my pride that blinded me... too much to see what you were becoming."
- pdimitar 5y ago
  > Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. I can be moved by this philosophy all the way to tears and crying (and it did happen in the past). However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to their jobs. If they don't "worry" about the future and quit and try to do something else that doesn't work out... well... rent / mortgage installment is still due in two weeks. I really LOVE the philosophy you cited. I just can't see how it's applicable to today's world. The system is specifically made to keep us as hamsters on wheels.
  - firasd 5y ago
    Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. I think this is our gift and curse as humans--we can plan for the future and reminisce on the past, which enables great achievements, but tied up with this kind of 'time traveling' thinking are emotions like anxiety, sadness, disappointment. So if we could somehow just be efficient calculating machines we wouldn't need this philosophy. (Although lately I've been realizing that if we were just cold calculating machines maybe we wouldn't have complex drives and passions, so probably emotions are not just an extraneous 'curse', and are part of why we do what we do.)
worldsayshi 5y ago
"There's no secret ingredient" I've found this to be very applicable to life. I often instinctively look for some magical silver bullet solution for hard problems. This makes it easy to procrastinate instead of just taking the best action I can come up with right now. To not act is also a choice and we often forget to compare the utility of non-action to action.
- visarga 5y ago
  Sometimes it's better not to act. It's all situation dependent.
  - worldsayshi 5y ago
    Sure but some of us (self included) seem to have a bias towards waiting for perfect information to appear.
- abartl 5y ago
  Also you don't need the best action you can come up with. A good enough action will do (even inaction is an action). Also, if it turns out it wasn't a good action, well, s** happens, that's the upredicatable nature of life, so it will be fine, you will recover from it.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
I’m a big fan of esoteric wisdom. Eg conferences in western esotericism. Trolls 2 was directly based on deep esoteric wisdom. Shocking. Also, Frozen 2. That’s funny, right?
kazinator 5y ago
The climactic wisdom in Kung Fu Panda is a trope from Dumbo [movie about elephant, 1941]. An object believed to be magic, giving abilities to the possessor, turns out to be just a prop. It's all in you, you just have to believe in yourself.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  It's an ancient trope: It appears in the epic of Gilgamesh, who searches for immortality in the form of a magic coral flower, which eventually gets stolen, only for Gilgamesh to realize he was immortal all along, because of his legacy in his city Uruk. He also gets made a god after his death.
  - kazinator 5y ago
    > appears in the epic of Gilgamesh Slam, dunk, QED. Well done!
- throwaway675309 5y ago
  Or put another way: mind over matter is amplified by psychosomatism. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss...
bbertelsen 5y ago
Quote: "You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach". Lesson: There are some things you can't change. Quote: "There is no secret ingredient" Lesson: It's just you, keep grinding!
- Melatonic 5y ago
  This made me think of the old quote "When life gives you lemons..." which is (I think) supposed to be inspirational in that even when you get dealt a bad hand you should still keep going and make the best of it. The thing is I freaking love lemons and use them in all kinds of shit - when life gives ME lemons it ends up being a very, very good day :-)
  - aspenmayer 5y ago
    Even stranger is that lemons themselves are a hybrid of bitter orange and citron. So life really did give us lemons, though humans may have helped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon
    - Melatonic 5y ago
      Almost all citrus is man made - from what I remember the only OG ones were mandarins, pomelos, and something else....
pjerem 5y ago
I totally missed out the Kung Fu Panda "event" when it was released and I just watched it with my son some weeks ago, choosing it randomly on Netflix, remembering myself that i heard it was good. I was just expecting some good Dreamworks blockbuster. Well, I was mind blown. The first movie is a masterpiece, the trilogy is really solid. It's pretty deep, entertaining, fun, and beautiful and it carries a lot of interesting messages. I loved it.
- mkaic 5y ago
  Agreed. It was one of the first movies that made me realize what animated movies were truly capable of. Fast forward 10 years and now I'm absolutely obsessed with animation -- it's one of my all time favorite art forms! You can convey emotional ideas so specifically and precisely with the control that animation gives. It's fantastic, and KFP makes great use of the medium. There are few kinds of entertainment I enjoy more than a well-written animated movie.
  - shishy 5y ago
    Hopefully you've watched Avatar the Last Airbender by now :)
    - mkaic 5y ago
      Of course! I'm still pretty young so I grew up watching ATLA and have rewatched it several times since then. One of the greatest animated series to ever air.
the_af 5y ago
First, I want to say I really like Kung Fu Panda... now. In particular, I really like the 2D intro (I wish the whole movie was drawn in that style, which reminds me of the awesome Samurai Jack), and also Tai Lung's escape is a masterpiece of foreboding and action. This is a credible villain that everyone fears, and he quickly demonstrates why. That said, back when it was released I was training in kung fu and some of the message of "the untrained newcomer is better than the devoted pupils" felt irritating to me. They've been training hard for years, they are pretty good, but the movie effectively tell them: you're not the chosen ones, let's pick someone who's never trained instead. This is a frequent Hollywood trope that I always find annoying, The Newcomer (usually a child) Who Trumps All Experts. I understand why it exists: the novice newcomer serves as the point of view of the audience. But it's still annoying.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
  There's also the aspect of the new guy who doesn't know what others say is impossible, so he tries things others don't even attempt. And sometimes, that leads to success.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Yes, of course. But did they show in the movie the failings or shortcomings of all the other trainees, what it was that they considered "impossible"? They were training hard and didn't understand why Po was picked over them. We, the audience, are also not told why.
    - ru552 5y ago
      They were all susceptible to the dreaded nerve attack. Po, not so much.
    - Dove 5y ago
      Hard training is not the only ingredient to excellence. Po had an abundance of the secret ingredient: a spirit of authentic love and enthusiasm, leading to a practice dominated by play. It's a theme you can encounter in a lot of martial arts contexts. You could say it is the entire lesson of Dragon Ball Z -- Vegeta exemplifies the ambitious hard work guts and glory approach. And it takes him very far. But he's always playing second fiddle to Goku's approach, defined by love, enthusiasm, and play. Likewise, Shifu cannot surpass Oogway. It's a theme you'll encounter outside of martial arts, too. For example, high level hackers are said to be characterized by playfulness -- you find puns and puzzles and riddles and laughter, devouring of technical manuals like candy. There are rigorous hours of morally disciplined study, but this could not really be said to be the source of their power or the character of their existence. Sure, there's plenty of hard work, and it's unavoidable, but the spirit of love and curiosity and play and enthusiasm will take you much farther than the spirit of discipline and ambition alone. I have a book about learning electric guitar that repeats the lesson. The author writes (in paraphrase - I don't have it with me at the moment), "In my experience, there are two groups of students of the guitar: those who practice a lot because they want to be good, and those who practice every spare moment because they literally would rather not do anything else. One of these groups gets really, really good -- I'll let you guess which." Po has that. His authentic enthusiasm leads to a spirit that finds the suffering of practice to be light because he is so overjoyed that he is doing kung fu. It leads to an encyclopedic knowledge of the art because he would literally not rather be reading about anything else. He surpasses Shifu and perhaps eventually Oogway in subsequent films, entirely because this spirit leads him places that mere discipline and ambition never would. Are his kicks as clean as the five? Never. That's not his strength. And to the film's credit, he doesn't skip the discipline and training aspect. But he remains physically a bit sloppy to the end of the series, and I think this is making the point that this is not what strength is. Po's strength is in his spirit, and this is what in the end makes him the greatest master. I have always found his fight with Tai Lung a little unsatisfying, too. It seems odd that he's immune to nerve attacks. What, because he's fat or furry or something? What does that have to do with excellence? It seems a one off oddity, not a deep lesson. But the film is so philosophically on point that I doubt it's something this dumb. The lesson about the superiority of a spirit of play is so true to life that I have to think there's something here. The best interpretation I have is this -- what we see with Po and Tai Lung might be metaphorically talking about a real life phenomenon: facing an opponent as overpowering as Tai Lung will absolutely sap the strength from your limbs if your faith is in your body and in your training. You think you're strong? He's stronger. You think you're well trained? Please. There will always be someone better, and when you face them, you will be paralyzed and weak by the knowledge of that fact. But if you are a lover of the art and it's something you cannot turn off, that effect does not work on you. You cannot lose faith because your efforts were never about faith. As hopeless as you may feel about your odds of success (and Po feels hopeless right up until the moment when he wins!), you retain your strength and alertness because to you fighting is not about winning -- it is about being who you are. The situation cannot change who you are.
taf2 5y ago
My favorite movie because - definitely gonna need then universe juice!
treyfitty 5y ago
I find that western culture emphasizes the importance of agency at the expense of community. Kung fu panda, and most animated movies are good examples of where we see agency exalted as a desirable trait, and acts of rebellion are portrayed as “brave.” While rebellion is a necessary part of growing up, it is merely a manifestation of becoming comfortable with one’s agency in the world and nothing more. The article explains why kung fu panda is a great movie by starting with a quote highlighting the pandas desire to break away from expectations to pursue his passion. By the end of the article, there’s a quote about illusion of control. It’s contradictory, and ultimately I think we’re ingrained to favor sentiments of agency and discount any notion of loss-of-control which is a shame. Societies are created by individual pursuits towards “happiness.” I submit that societies crumble because of the same forces. By prioritizing individualistic endeavors, and cherishing agency, we fail to account for the need to compromise, and collaborate to fulfill societal duties (whatever those may be in any given time)
- FredPret 5y ago
  Western culture is also soaked in politics. It’s almost all we talk about. And it’s all about compromises.
- moviewise 5y ago
  > The article explains why kung fu panda is a great movie by starting with a quote highlighting the pandas desire to break away from expectations to pursue his passion. By the end of the article, there’s a quote about illusion of control. It’s contradictory I think the "desire to break away from expectations" and the "illusion of control" are not contradictory because they represent different struggles. The former is a struggle within, the latter is a struggle against the world. Understanding for yourself what you want to accept from the larger society, the expectations, is an inner struggle. Understanding that you have little control over that society, over life itself, is an outward struggle that doesn't have to consume you if you let go of the illusion of control. The first one is about choosing what to focus on, the second one is about choosing to be at peace with that which you cannot control. These two work in tandem and are not contradictory.
KhoomeiK 5y ago
I'd like to add that Kung Fu Panda actually illustrates a genuine philosophical conflict between Daoism and Confucianism, which played out across early China during the Spring and Autumn period. Oogway represents Daoism with its search for inner peace and going with the flow/dao. Shifu, on the other hand, represents Confucianism with its concerns for moral duty and worldly social harmony. The internal and external, immaterial and material—each has a role in the construction of a philosophy conducive to success. "Oogway explains that he can not make the peach tree blossom or bear fruit before it is ready. Shifu retorts that there are things that can be controlled like when the fruit falls or where the seeds are planted. Oogway finalizes by saying that no matter what is done, the tree will still grow to be a peach tree, instead of any other kind of tree and that great things can happen if it is helped and nurtured. Oogway argues the point of Daoism and that nature will take its course. Shifu argues the point of Confucianism and that everything has order." [1] Also shameless plug for my essay about Culture, Philosophy, and Reinforcement Learning which comments on similar dualities and their relations. [2] [1] https://medium.com/@gvreligion/quit-dont-quit-noodles-don-t-noodles-daoism-and-kung-fu-panda-404434bb22e5 https://medium.com/@gvreligion/quit-dont-quit-noodles-don-t-... [2] https://medium.com/@rohan.pandey/culture-philosophy-and-reinforcement-learning-6032e9796f14 https://medium.com/@rohan.pandey/culture-philosophy-and-rein...
- galaxyLogic 5y ago
  Good points about Dao vs Confucius. In our times the debate seems to be between autocracy vs. democracy.
- throwaway2n32 5y ago
  Is this some how related to propaganda against CCP.
- UweSchmidt 5y ago
  "The Kung Fu Panda movies focus on moving away from the tradition of Confucianism and moving towards the Daoism ideas of doing what feels natural." I haven't watched the movies, but it seems Panda-Daoism happens to conform to Hollywood's western individualist thought and therefore predictably "wins". I'd love to watch or read something that lets the Confucianist be the deeper truth, for a change. Do you happen to know of anything? I suspect there are is quite a bit of wisdom in there worth exploring, and wouldn't mind to be confronted with a stronger dose of "different" once in a while.
deleted 5y ago
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boomboomsubban 5y ago
This makes me feel old. It reminds me of the scores of "wasn't Fern Gully actually surprisingly poignant?" articles that came out in around 2008, or the "philosophy of Shrek" from around 2013. Now the kids who grew up with Kung Fu Panda are internet journalists.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Lets hope the tradition continues and people talk about how awesome Megamind was in a few years.
blue16 5y ago
An under-rated movie (and trilogy as a whole). They take philosophy and ethics and morph it into something so easy to understand even a child enjoys listening to it.
wantlotsofcurry 5y ago
Loved the article. I only have one thing to add from my personal experience. In the past, when I was dealing with severe depression, if I read this article or similar, I would've thought "this is such bullshit, wtf is this moron talking about". Reading the article today, after being "cured" from depression by Electroconvulsive therapy, I thought it was so helpful and insightful. I was able to actually understand what the author was saying and take their words to heart. It's crazy how depression clouds things like that, something that could be really helpful is seen as super-positive bs and unrealistic. Something that you (depressed person) could never achieve. Truly sick disease. If you're dealing with depression right now, please keep pushing, it really really does get better :)
- moviewise 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. It's an interesting observation that the people who may best be helped by what I call "movie therapy" would be the most resistant to it, as they are not in the right frame of mind to consider new ideas or perspectives. It's one of those terrible ironies of life.
gerbilly 5y ago
The bit that gets me is when Oogway ascends. In my opinion it's not because he's really old or just because it's his time. He realises that he has to go because, otherwise Shifu is always going to look to him for answers, and he will never find his way until he is gone.
lchengify 5y ago
I am half Chinese and a martial artist (northern shaolin kung fu). I'm also a huge fan of philosophy as expressed via animation or science fiction. When I saw Kung Fu Panda in the theater, I was impressed with how a mainstream American animated film captured the subtle aspects of my culture. KhoomeiK gets into the details below (I would add Buddhism to Daoism and Confucianism, but that's minor), but the general stoicism expressed by the characters (except Po) is the environment I knew as a child. Of course Mulan had come out before this, but Mulan was more focused on the narrative and themes around the protagonist. KFP has an ensemble cast beginning-to-end, which allowed for a broader exploration of the philosophy. Each time two characters interact, you get some additional debate that paints a broader picture, leading to the amazing quotes in this article. At the time, there were even articles about how surprisingly successful it was in China despite being made in the US about Chinese philosophy [1]. You could argue this kicked off what has now become a much larger Chinese film industry. I'll add from a strictly technical standpoint, the subtle animations for the martial arts are superbly correct. The different animals (Tiger, Crane, etc) are explicit Kung Fu styles. The stances, forms, weapons and training they show are really exact. There's a scene where Shifu corrects young Tai Lung's stance with a stick. The stance is real down to the feet placement in the animation (bow and arrow stance), and in traditional training they do correct you with sticks. I'll end with one last anecdote: In KFP 2, there's a scene where Tigress says she learned punching "hard style" by hitting an ironwood tree for 20 years. It's written as a joke, but I actually had a Kung Fu instructor who trained that way in real life. Now you train on progressively harder surfaces for punching over a period of 7 years or more, but when he started in the 80's you apparently did it on trees. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071103281_pf.html?utm_source=reddit.com https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0...
- abhorrence 5y ago
  > Of course Mulan had come out before this (same year but March vs June) For anyone who was panicking over the passage of time when reading this: Kung Fu Panda was released in 2008, Mulan came out in 1998.
  - lchengify 5y ago
Xavdidtheshadow 5y ago
KFP is one of my favorite movies; I (an adult without kids) watch it yearly on my birthday. It's got so much heart and it's fight choreography is up there with other all-timers (ip man, crouching tiger, hidden dragon, the matrix). If you only watch one clip, check out this segment from the training montage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCk9VAxEpD0&t=156s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCk9VAxEpD0&t=156s Their use of visual boundaries and transitions is just so superb.
steveylang 5y ago
I love KFP and this article as well, but this one seems a bit off? > "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." > Life Lesson: You bring about what you focus on, whether good or bad. Oogway tells Shifu about his vision that Tai Lung will return, in response Shifu orders that guards and arms at the prison should be doubled to prevent Tai Lung's escape. Oogway then response with that line, which is basically saying no matter what he does, he's not going to prevent Tai Lung's escape. So the quote seems to be more about the wisdom of accepting your current circumstances so that you can better deal with them (the quote about stilling your mind comes right after.)
- moviewise 5y ago
  > Oogway then responds with that line, which is basically saying no matter what he does, he's not going to prevent Tai Lung's escape. This is the difference between fate and destiny. If what we do does not matter, then that is fate, which is very confining, like a prison where you are restricted from having any meaningful impact on your own life. If fate were true, we could all just sit in a room quietly, waiting for fate to intervene and lead us by the nose down a path we never expected. But that doesn't sound like the life we experience. We do make choices, those choices have consequences, and our lives are different because of the paths we took. This is destiny, and it has to do with what we choose to focus on, good or bad. If you spend your time doing things that are healthy for you and others, you and those around you become healthier. If instead you choose to focus on potential catastrophes, then that is what you and those around you experience. And this kind of focus will likely enable the catastrophe to materialize because part of you will be working to fulfill this negative expectation to justify all the life that was wasted in worrying about it. I believe this is a tenet of Karma in Jainism: "There is no retribution, judgment or reward involved but a natural consequences of the choices in life made either knowingly or unknowingly." "a good and virtuous life indicates a latent desire to experience good and virtuous themes of life. Therefore, such a person attracts karma that ensures that their future births will allow them to experience and manifest their virtues and good feelings unhindered" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
Uhhrrr 5y ago
Description of working on Kung Fu Panda from Dan Harmon (Community, Rick and Morty): > My hats off to anyone that can write a Dreamworks Animation film. They have a unique process. > First they storyboard the entire film. That is the first step. Not kidding. No writers, no script, just a story, and an entire film drawn on pieces of paper. > Then Katzenberg watches an animatic of the boards and says, surprisingly, "this needs a lot of work. You have a month." > Then they hire their first writer. And spend that month changing as much of the storyboards as they can, which is about 20 to 30 percent. If the 30 percent change isn't the right kind of change, people get fired. Maybe the director, maybe the writer, maybe both… > I came in about four writers into the process. It's kind of hard to write a "better" scene than the last writer when the rules are that you can only change 30 percent of each scene or completely change 30 percent of the scenes, per Katzenberg screening. So, for instance, in this scene, the panda comes up a flight of stairs carrying a bucket of water, slips on a banana peel, says something to two geese and does an air guitar. The good news? There can be anything in the bucket. Your mission: make the movie better. https://www.avclub.com/hilarious-things-to-put-in-kung-fu-pandas-bucket-1798214269 https://www.avclub.com/hilarious-things-to-put-in-kung-fu-pa...
rramadass 5y ago
Relevant; to get a good practical overview of Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism "Wisdom" see Master of the Three Ways: Reflections of a Chinese Sage on Living a Satisfying Life by Hung Ying-Ming and translated by William Scott Wilson. Summary at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan

285 points by moviewise 5y ago

The Panda is also a bumbling unskilled male who fails upwards while being supported by a female who put in years of work to build real expertise (Tigress).

jimbokun 5y ago
Because the Tigress paints inside the line and follows all the rules. Where Oogway specifically chooses Po because he is a self learner and innovates and does things in an unconventional way. Which is why he is the one who beats Tai Lung.

blue16 5y ago

Kung-Fu Panda is an under-rated trilogy. The relation to philosophy and ethics is strong and very poignant

h2odragon 5y ago

One of the under-appreciated bits of wisdom in this movie, to my mind, is "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to furniture." Sure, it works out for the implausibly resilient cartoon panda but even he suffers some. It's never that pleasant in the real world.

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bitwize 5y ago
I loved that bit because it was an explicit reference to the Chinese legend of Wan Hu, the mandarin who attempted to do just that. That's probably one of the reasons why the Chinese animation industry panicked upon Kung Fu Panda's release, judging the West to be doing better Chinese-themed animation than the Chinese were capable of at the time.
anonymouse008 5y ago
> "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to furniture." Do not attempt to fly by means of {VC Money} fastened to {hyper-growth mindset}
a_e_k 5y ago
That calls to mind one of my favorite bits from RFC 1925 ("The Twelve Networking Truths") [0]: > With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1925 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1925

AntonioCao 5y ago

Eric Weinstein also wrote an excellent analysis of Kung Fu Panda on Quora. https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-developing-the-capability-to-be-an-awesome-Kung-Fu-fighter-How-does-he-shift-from-being-a-total-fat-slob-to-becoming-capable-of-defeating-Tai-Lung https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-de...

zemptime 5y ago
I love Kung Fu Panda! It secretly became my favorite movie. Secretly, because it wasn't until years after I'd seen it that I realized how much I liked it compared to... every other movie.
hwers 5y ago
Immediately what I thought of. I miss this era of Weinstein when he stuck to conveying things the way he thought of them (with all the underlying mathematical abstractions intact) rather than simplify it to reach a broader audience.

colesantiago 5y ago

This is just an animated movie cartoon right, is it really that deep?

Ducki 5y ago
Who says cartoons/animations can't go deep? Take a look at Bojack Horseman.
- andi999 5y ago
  too deep
- kgwxd 5y ago
  After watching it, just reading the name "Bojack" turns my current mood 3 shades greyer.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Doesnt it make you feel good you didnt pursue the Hollywood dream?
- thorin 5y ago
  Or Rick and Morty, The Midnight Gospel, Studio Ghibli?
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Rick and Morty fakes a lot of its depth with nonsense technobabble, akin to Evangeleon's biblical references which are largely nonsense. The good bits of Rick and Morty are very short, maybe 1-minute sections of episodes. Morty's relationship with Planetina was one of the deeper moments of all of season 5, except it is summarized in maybe 90-seconds of story at the most. And its really not much deeper than "some eco-friendly people turn out to be eco-terrorists", and that's enough to ruin a relationship. Yeah, sucks for Morty, but... its not exactly a particularly deep message (deep in the context of the rest of the show, yes. And I definitely enjoy those kinds of moments. But something needs to be longer than 90-seconds of story for me to call it "deep", especially compared to other things I've seen) ---------- I dunno, as far as technobabble / nonsense words go, I prefer Evangeleon from that perspective. There's a lot to be said about Shinji's exploration of his depression (caused by Gendo, his father's, obsession over the Human Instrumentality Project). Rick is just a toxic asshole that the show forces you to watch. Someone like Morty should have run away / cut Rick out of his life a long long time ago. At least in Evangelion, Shinji is actively trying to cut out the entire mecha-project out of his life (running away multiple times), but since Shinji is one of the few candidates who can pilot the mech, he's forced back into the job over-and-over again (unlike Morty who seems to just be this passive guy who is needlessly picked on by Rick for 5 seasons). If nothing really matters, then Morty could just leave and that's that (and the fact that this hasn't been explored across ~5 seasons shows the limitations of the relatively shallow, episodic format... forcing Rick and Morty to be friends again by the start of the next episode to keep things serialized). What makes Shinji's situation unique is that Shinji's worth as a pilot is more than he gives credit for, and each time he tries to leave, a disaster occurs. Each time Shinji does fight, a disaster also occurs by his hands. So Shinji's confusion and depression is far more understanding. Ex: Shinji's relationship with Toji evolves over a few episodes, and is deeper than all 5 season's of Morty's development. Shinji is forced to pilot the mech in episode 1. Shinji's inexperience with the mech causes collateral damage, and Toji's sister gets trapped in the rubble. Toji bullies Shinji until Shinji saves him in the next fight, as Toji didn't realize the issues of being a pilot. The arc culminates as Toji himself becomes a pilot, and Shinji is forced by his father to destroy Toji's mech. Shinji is being forced to follow Gendo (his father's) plans as scripted out by "The Dead Sea Scrolls" (aka: technobabble), but the important thing is that Gendo's ambition for the project is so great, he's willing to traumatize his own son over it. Shinji x Toji's relationship is just one sacrifice Gendo makes, and Shinji's depression goes even deeper because of it.

csytan 5y ago

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That's why it is called the present" - Master Oogway

mc32 5y ago
I know I'm being too literal but I kinda hate quips like that which rely on turns of phrases. They are completely devoid of any basis. I'm sure there are languages that don't have the duality of gift/present as well as a coincidence in meaning for the word meaning "now". I mean, sure, it's "aunt cute" or whatever but other than that it has not meaning.
- simonh 5y ago
  It has very profound meaning, and always living in the now is a central tenet of Buddhist philosophy.
- chucksta 5y ago
  >There is basis, yesterday did in fact happen in the past and tomorrow can not be said with certainty. >There are many phrases in many languages that don't have translations to others or may mean something different. See the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as little as "no worries" without translation can still be lost in translation culture.
  - sjmm1989 5y ago
    > See the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as little as "no worries" without translation can still be lost in translation culture. Exactly. You may know the word for 'worry' or 'worries', but you may not know the word for 'no'. And in that moment you could be misinterpreting the intentions and actions/words of a person who only told you 'don't worry'. Meanwhile, you are big worrying.
- sjmm1989 5y ago
  > They are completely devoid of any basis. No pal, that's just you and your inability to accept that you may not know everything there is to know, and so you cannot accept that these play on words may carry wisdom in them that you are not aware of yet, or just haven't quite cognized. And pal... Duality is in almost nearly everything. It's not language specific. It's universe specific. In our reality, there is generally almost always an equal and opposite to everything. If you don't know what somethings equal or opposite is yet, you just have yet to find it. This seems to be true regardless of whoever argues, because all it takes is time to find that proof. Even Time has its own equal and opposite. Space. Through time you travel when moving through space, but in space you can travel through time as well by not moving at all... So yeah, it's not even a case of you being too literal. You are just being obtuse or ignorant. Maybe even arrogant. But not too literal.

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froggertoaster 5y ago

Fun fact: this movie sparked a huge cultural debate in China because of how accurate to Chinese culture it was. The center of the debate was the perception that Westerners were better at making a movie with accurate Chinese cultural elements than the Chinese themselves. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-film-panda/kung-fu-panda-prompts-soul-searching-in-china-idUSPEK34047220080705 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-film-panda/kung-fu-...

autarch 5y ago
It's little more complex than that. The Accented Cinema YT channel has an excellent video on this topic - https://youtu.be/tCCRuUlJ_nA https://youtu.be/tCCRuUlJ_nA
- froggertoaster 5y ago
  How dare you one up me with nuance! :P Thanks for the link, I'll definitely give this a watch.
- MontagFTB 5y ago
  That was a great video - thank you for the share!
  - randmeerkat 5y ago
    It was excellent and is definitely worth the time. Thanks!
- moviewise 5y ago
  I feel that there is a difference between "believe in yourself" and "embrace who you are / love yourself." The former is about confidence, the latter is about ego.
kazinator 5y ago
Information about China is easily available outside of Chine, not to mention that there are large numbers of Chinese people living abroad. A movie made outside of China that contains elements of traditional Chinese culture won't be spoiled with corrections to fit communist ideals and narratives.

bashmelek 5y ago

The part of the scroll being blank also goes way back, reminiscent of the “true and wordless scripture” of Buddhism

pdimitar 5y ago
Not to start a huge philosophy argument but I always only understood it as "the real power to change things around is only in you -- no magic scrolls will help you with that". In a very typical (and loved by me) Buddhism fashion you have the protagonist of a tale e.g. be promised wisdom or power if they climb a mountain and talk to the monks on top and eventually it turns out that while you were climbing the mountain you gained the wisdom and strength you were seeking. Arriving at the top of the mountain was just the event that is supposed to make you aware that you have now succeeded. I viewed Kung Fu Panda part 1 similarly. If you go through all the trials to gain the Dragon Scroll and finish them successfully then you ALREADY ARE the "dragon warrior". You don't no need scroll for that. That's why it's empty. Not just empty; it's a mirror. To show you that the wisdom and power are already inside you. That's what I got out of it.
dragontamer 5y ago
I'm no expert on Chinese culture. But the message is at least as old as "Journey to the West" (aka: 'that monkey king story'). Where Tang Sanzang travels westward in search of paradise. At the end of the trip, he fails to find paradise, and Buddha IIRC tells him to turn around and look back upon his journey. Tang Sanzang created paradise in his time, by solving all the issues of the people along the way. It was the journey that made paradise, not the end. If he just teleported to the West, there would have been no paradise. ------ Probably a Buddhism thing that keeps coming up over and over again over the centuries. But I liked that one.

glutamate 5y ago

Obligatory link to Slavoj Žižek's take on Kong Fu Panda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCD3hg6OEQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCD3hg6OEQw

moviewise 5y ago
"The friend noticed there above the entrance to the house, a horseshoe, which I don't know how it is here. In Europe it is a superstitious item preventing evil spirits to enter the house. So the friend asked Niels Bohr, but what you mean aren't you a scientist? Do you believe in this? Niels Bohr says, of course, I'm not crazy, I don't. So the friend asked him, why do you have it there? You know what Neils Bohr answered? He said, of course I don't believe in it, but I have it there because I was told that it works even if you don't believe in it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr

toastercat 5y ago

Great article! Kung Fu Panda remains in my memory even so many years after I've watched it because of its memorable quotes, but also because of the tragic and relatable motivation of its villain (Tai Lung). I've always found the exchange between Tai Lung and Shifu towards the end of the film to be profoundly sad, partly because of the great vocal performance by Ian McShane: > Who filled my head with dreams? Who drove me to train until my bones cracked? Who denied me my destiny? [...] All I ever did, I did to make you proud. Tell me how proud you are, Shifu! Tell me! > I have always been proud of you. From the first moment, I've been proud of you. And it was my pride that blinded me. I loved you too much to see what you were becoming, what I was turning you into. I'm sorry. There's also brief moment where Tai Lung's facial expression changes to hint that he took the apology to heart. I'm not used to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films!

lotsofspots 5y ago
An apology that came twenty years too late!
tzs 5y ago
> I'm not used to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films! I think it was Heinlein who when asked how to write a good novel for juveniles said that you write a good novel and then take out the sex scenes. The major studios have long been following that approach with their big-budget animated films.

firasd 5y ago

I actually have found comfort in my personal life from thinking about that little passage where the panda frets, "Maybe I should just quit and go back to making noodles", and the guru responds, "Quit, don't quit. Noodles, don't noodles. You are too concerned about what was and what will be." Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. There is a similar point from Marcus Aurelius where he says (in this old timey translation): "Let not future things disturb thee, for thou wilt come to them... having with thee the same reason which now thou usest." PS. Another example of unexpectedly good writing is when the student-turned-bad-guy bitterly says, "What I ever did, I did to make you proud! Tell me how proud you are, Shifu", and then after a pause Shifu replies with genuine agreement: "I have always been proud of you... And it was my pride that blinded me... too much to see what you were becoming."

pdimitar 5y ago
> Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. I can be moved by this philosophy all the way to tears and crying (and it did happen in the past). However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to their jobs. If they don't "worry" about the future and quit and try to do something else that doesn't work out... well... rent / mortgage installment is still due in two weeks. I really LOVE the philosophy you cited. I just can't see how it's applicable to today's world. The system is specifically made to keep us as hamsters on wheels.
- firasd 5y ago
  Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. I think this is our gift and curse as humans--we can plan for the future and reminisce on the past, which enables great achievements, but tied up with this kind of 'time traveling' thinking are emotions like anxiety, sadness, disappointment. So if we could somehow just be efficient calculating machines we wouldn't need this philosophy. (Although lately I've been realizing that if we were just cold calculating machines maybe we wouldn't have complex drives and passions, so probably emotions are not just an extraneous 'curse', and are part of why we do what we do.)

worldsayshi 5y ago

"There's no secret ingredient" I've found this to be very applicable to life. I often instinctively look for some magical silver bullet solution for hard problems. This makes it easy to procrastinate instead of just taking the best action I can come up with right now. To not act is also a choice and we often forget to compare the utility of non-action to action.

visarga 5y ago
Sometimes it's better not to act. It's all situation dependent.
- worldsayshi 5y ago
  Sure but some of us (self included) seem to have a bias towards waiting for perfect information to appear.
abartl 5y ago
Also you don't need the best action you can come up with. A good enough action will do (even inaction is an action). Also, if it turns out it wasn't a good action, well, s** happens, that's the upredicatable nature of life, so it will be fine, you will recover from it.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

I’m a big fan of esoteric wisdom. Eg conferences in western esotericism. Trolls 2 was directly based on deep esoteric wisdom. Shocking. Also, Frozen 2. That’s funny, right?

kazinator 5y ago

The climactic wisdom in Kung Fu Panda is a trope from Dumbo [movie about elephant, 1941]. An object believed to be magic, giving abilities to the possessor, turns out to be just a prop. It's all in you, you just have to believe in yourself.

DocTomoe 5y ago
It's an ancient trope: It appears in the epic of Gilgamesh, who searches for immortality in the form of a magic coral flower, which eventually gets stolen, only for Gilgamesh to realize he was immortal all along, because of his legacy in his city Uruk. He also gets made a god after his death.
- kazinator 5y ago
  > appears in the epic of Gilgamesh Slam, dunk, QED. Well done!
throwaway675309 5y ago
Or put another way: mind over matter is amplified by psychosomatism. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss...

bbertelsen 5y ago

Quote: "You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach". Lesson: There are some things you can't change. Quote: "There is no secret ingredient" Lesson: It's just you, keep grinding!

Melatonic 5y ago
This made me think of the old quote "When life gives you lemons..." which is (I think) supposed to be inspirational in that even when you get dealt a bad hand you should still keep going and make the best of it. The thing is I freaking love lemons and use them in all kinds of shit - when life gives ME lemons it ends up being a very, very good day :-)
- aspenmayer 5y ago
  Even stranger is that lemons themselves are a hybrid of bitter orange and citron. So life really did give us lemons, though humans may have helped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon
  - Melatonic 5y ago
    Almost all citrus is man made - from what I remember the only OG ones were mandarins, pomelos, and something else....

pjerem 5y ago

I totally missed out the Kung Fu Panda "event" when it was released and I just watched it with my son some weeks ago, choosing it randomly on Netflix, remembering myself that i heard it was good. I was just expecting some good Dreamworks blockbuster. Well, I was mind blown. The first movie is a masterpiece, the trilogy is really solid. It's pretty deep, entertaining, fun, and beautiful and it carries a lot of interesting messages. I loved it.

mkaic 5y ago
Agreed. It was one of the first movies that made me realize what animated movies were truly capable of. Fast forward 10 years and now I'm absolutely obsessed with animation -- it's one of my all time favorite art forms! You can convey emotional ideas so specifically and precisely with the control that animation gives. It's fantastic, and KFP makes great use of the medium. There are few kinds of entertainment I enjoy more than a well-written animated movie.
- shishy 5y ago
  Hopefully you've watched Avatar the Last Airbender by now :)
  - mkaic 5y ago
    Of course! I'm still pretty young so I grew up watching ATLA and have rewatched it several times since then. One of the greatest animated series to ever air.

the_af 5y ago

First, I want to say I really like Kung Fu Panda... now. In particular, I really like the 2D intro (I wish the whole movie was drawn in that style, which reminds me of the awesome Samurai Jack), and also Tai Lung's escape is a masterpiece of foreboding and action. This is a credible villain that everyone fears, and he quickly demonstrates why. That said, back when it was released I was training in kung fu and some of the message of "the untrained newcomer is better than the devoted pupils" felt irritating to me. They've been training hard for years, they are pretty good, but the movie effectively tell them: you're not the chosen ones, let's pick someone who's never trained instead. This is a frequent Hollywood trope that I always find annoying, The Newcomer (usually a child) Who Trumps All Experts. I understand why it exists: the novice newcomer serves as the point of view of the audience. But it's still annoying.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
There's also the aspect of the new guy who doesn't know what others say is impossible, so he tries things others don't even attempt. And sometimes, that leads to success.
- the_af 5y ago
  Yes, of course. But did they show in the movie the failings or shortcomings of all the other trainees, what it was that they considered "impossible"? They were training hard and didn't understand why Po was picked over them. We, the audience, are also not told why.
  - ru552 5y ago
    They were all susceptible to the dreaded nerve attack. Po, not so much.
  - Dove 5y ago
    Hard training is not the only ingredient to excellence. Po had an abundance of the secret ingredient: a spirit of authentic love and enthusiasm, leading to a practice dominated by play. It's a theme you can encounter in a lot of martial arts contexts. You could say it is the entire lesson of Dragon Ball Z -- Vegeta exemplifies the ambitious hard work guts and glory approach. And it takes him very far. But he's always playing second fiddle to Goku's approach, defined by love, enthusiasm, and play. Likewise, Shifu cannot surpass Oogway. It's a theme you'll encounter outside of martial arts, too. For example, high level hackers are said to be characterized by playfulness -- you find puns and puzzles and riddles and laughter, devouring of technical manuals like candy. There are rigorous hours of morally disciplined study, but this could not really be said to be the source of their power or the character of their existence. Sure, there's plenty of hard work, and it's unavoidable, but the spirit of love and curiosity and play and enthusiasm will take you much farther than the spirit of discipline and ambition alone. I have a book about learning electric guitar that repeats the lesson. The author writes (in paraphrase - I don't have it with me at the moment), "In my experience, there are two groups of students of the guitar: those who practice a lot because they want to be good, and those who practice every spare moment because they literally would rather not do anything else. One of these groups gets really, really good -- I'll let you guess which." Po has that. His authentic enthusiasm leads to a spirit that finds the suffering of practice to be light because he is so overjoyed that he is doing kung fu. It leads to an encyclopedic knowledge of the art because he would literally not rather be reading about anything else. He surpasses Shifu and perhaps eventually Oogway in subsequent films, entirely because this spirit leads him places that mere discipline and ambition never would. Are his kicks as clean as the five? Never. That's not his strength. And to the film's credit, he doesn't skip the discipline and training aspect. But he remains physically a bit sloppy to the end of the series, and I think this is making the point that this is not what strength is. Po's strength is in his spirit, and this is what in the end makes him the greatest master. I have always found his fight with Tai Lung a little unsatisfying, too. It seems odd that he's immune to nerve attacks. What, because he's fat or furry or something? What does that have to do with excellence? It seems a one off oddity, not a deep lesson. But the film is so philosophically on point that I doubt it's something this dumb. The lesson about the superiority of a spirit of play is so true to life that I have to think there's something here. The best interpretation I have is this -- what we see with Po and Tai Lung might be metaphorically talking about a real life phenomenon: facing an opponent as overpowering as Tai Lung will absolutely sap the strength from your limbs if your faith is in your body and in your training. You think you're strong? He's stronger. You think you're well trained? Please. There will always be someone better, and when you face them, you will be paralyzed and weak by the knowledge of that fact. But if you are a lover of the art and it's something you cannot turn off, that effect does not work on you. You cannot lose faith because your efforts were never about faith. As hopeless as you may feel about your odds of success (and Po feels hopeless right up until the moment when he wins!), you retain your strength and alertness because to you fighting is not about winning -- it is about being who you are. The situation cannot change who you are.

taf2 5y ago

My favorite movie because - definitely gonna need then universe juice!

treyfitty 5y ago

I find that western culture emphasizes the importance of agency at the expense of community. Kung fu panda, and most animated movies are good examples of where we see agency exalted as a desirable trait, and acts of rebellion are portrayed as “brave.” While rebellion is a necessary part of growing up, it is merely a manifestation of becoming comfortable with one’s agency in the world and nothing more. The article explains why kung fu panda is a great movie by starting with a quote highlighting the pandas desire to break away from expectations to pursue his passion. By the end of the article, there’s a quote about illusion of control. It’s contradictory, and ultimately I think we’re ingrained to favor sentiments of agency and discount any notion of loss-of-control which is a shame. Societies are created by individual pursuits towards “happiness.” I submit that societies crumble because of the same forces. By prioritizing individualistic endeavors, and cherishing agency, we fail to account for the need to compromise, and collaborate to fulfill societal duties (whatever those may be in any given time)

FredPret 5y ago
Western culture is also soaked in politics. It’s almost all we talk about. And it’s all about compromises.
moviewise 5y ago
> The article explains why kung fu panda is a great movie by starting with a quote highlighting the pandas desire to break away from expectations to pursue his passion. By the end of the article, there’s a quote about illusion of control. It’s contradictory I think the "desire to break away from expectations" and the "illusion of control" are not contradictory because they represent different struggles. The former is a struggle within, the latter is a struggle against the world. Understanding for yourself what you want to accept from the larger society, the expectations, is an inner struggle. Understanding that you have little control over that society, over life itself, is an outward struggle that doesn't have to consume you if you let go of the illusion of control. The first one is about choosing what to focus on, the second one is about choosing to be at peace with that which you cannot control. These two work in tandem and are not contradictory.

KhoomeiK 5y ago

I'd like to add that Kung Fu Panda actually illustrates a genuine philosophical conflict between Daoism and Confucianism, which played out across early China during the Spring and Autumn period. Oogway represents Daoism with its search for inner peace and going with the flow/dao. Shifu, on the other hand, represents Confucianism with its concerns for moral duty and worldly social harmony. The internal and external, immaterial and material—each has a role in the construction of a philosophy conducive to success. "Oogway explains that he can not make the peach tree blossom or bear fruit before it is ready. Shifu retorts that there are things that can be controlled like when the fruit falls or where the seeds are planted. Oogway finalizes by saying that no matter what is done, the tree will still grow to be a peach tree, instead of any other kind of tree and that great things can happen if it is helped and nurtured. Oogway argues the point of Daoism and that nature will take its course. Shifu argues the point of Confucianism and that everything has order." [1] Also shameless plug for my essay about Culture, Philosophy, and Reinforcement Learning which comments on similar dualities and their relations. [2] [1] https://medium.com/@gvreligion/quit-dont-quit-noodles-don-t-noodles-daoism-and-kung-fu-panda-404434bb22e5 https://medium.com/@gvreligion/quit-dont-quit-noodles-don-t-... [2] https://medium.com/@rohan.pandey/culture-philosophy-and-reinforcement-learning-6032e9796f14 https://medium.com/@rohan.pandey/culture-philosophy-and-rein...

galaxyLogic 5y ago
Good points about Dao vs Confucius. In our times the debate seems to be between autocracy vs. democracy.
throwaway2n32 5y ago
Is this some how related to propaganda against CCP.
UweSchmidt 5y ago
"The Kung Fu Panda movies focus on moving away from the tradition of Confucianism and moving towards the Daoism ideas of doing what feels natural." I haven't watched the movies, but it seems Panda-Daoism happens to conform to Hollywood's western individualist thought and therefore predictably "wins". I'd love to watch or read something that lets the Confucianist be the deeper truth, for a change. Do you happen to know of anything? I suspect there are is quite a bit of wisdom in there worth exploring, and wouldn't mind to be confronted with a stronger dose of "different" once in a while.

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boomboomsubban 5y ago

This makes me feel old. It reminds me of the scores of "wasn't Fern Gully actually surprisingly poignant?" articles that came out in around 2008, or the "philosophy of Shrek" from around 2013. Now the kids who grew up with Kung Fu Panda are internet journalists.

dragontamer 5y ago
Lets hope the tradition continues and people talk about how awesome Megamind was in a few years.

blue16 5y ago

An under-rated movie (and trilogy as a whole). They take philosophy and ethics and morph it into something so easy to understand even a child enjoys listening to it.

wantlotsofcurry 5y ago

Loved the article. I only have one thing to add from my personal experience. In the past, when I was dealing with severe depression, if I read this article or similar, I would've thought "this is such bullshit, wtf is this moron talking about". Reading the article today, after being "cured" from depression by Electroconvulsive therapy, I thought it was so helpful and insightful. I was able to actually understand what the author was saying and take their words to heart. It's crazy how depression clouds things like that, something that could be really helpful is seen as super-positive bs and unrealistic. Something that you (depressed person) could never achieve. Truly sick disease. If you're dealing with depression right now, please keep pushing, it really really does get better :)

moviewise 5y ago
Thank you for sharing this. It's an interesting observation that the people who may best be helped by what I call "movie therapy" would be the most resistant to it, as they are not in the right frame of mind to consider new ideas or perspectives. It's one of those terrible ironies of life.

gerbilly 5y ago

The bit that gets me is when Oogway ascends. In my opinion it's not because he's really old or just because it's his time. He realises that he has to go because, otherwise Shifu is always going to look to him for answers, and he will never find his way until he is gone.

lchengify 5y ago

I am half Chinese and a martial artist (northern shaolin kung fu). I'm also a huge fan of philosophy as expressed via animation or science fiction. When I saw Kung Fu Panda in the theater, I was impressed with how a mainstream American animated film captured the subtle aspects of my culture. KhoomeiK gets into the details below (I would add Buddhism to Daoism and Confucianism, but that's minor), but the general stoicism expressed by the characters (except Po) is the environment I knew as a child. Of course Mulan had come out before this, but Mulan was more focused on the narrative and themes around the protagonist. KFP has an ensemble cast beginning-to-end, which allowed for a broader exploration of the philosophy. Each time two characters interact, you get some additional debate that paints a broader picture, leading to the amazing quotes in this article. At the time, there were even articles about how surprisingly successful it was in China despite being made in the US about Chinese philosophy [1]. You could argue this kicked off what has now become a much larger Chinese film industry. I'll add from a strictly technical standpoint, the subtle animations for the martial arts are superbly correct. The different animals (Tiger, Crane, etc) are explicit Kung Fu styles. The stances, forms, weapons and training they show are really exact. There's a scene where Shifu corrects young Tai Lung's stance with a stick. The stance is real down to the feet placement in the animation (bow and arrow stance), and in traditional training they do correct you with sticks. I'll end with one last anecdote: In KFP 2, there's a scene where Tigress says she learned punching "hard style" by hitting an ironwood tree for 20 years. It's written as a joke, but I actually had a Kung Fu instructor who trained that way in real life. Now you train on progressively harder surfaces for punching over a period of 7 years or more, but when he started in the 80's you apparently did it on trees. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071103281_pf.html?utm_source=reddit.com https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0...

abhorrence 5y ago
> Of course Mulan had come out before this (same year but March vs June) For anyone who was panicking over the passage of time when reading this: Kung Fu Panda was released in 2008, Mulan came out in 1998.
- lchengify 5y ago

Xavdidtheshadow 5y ago

KFP is one of my favorite movies; I (an adult without kids) watch it yearly on my birthday. It's got so much heart and it's fight choreography is up there with other all-timers (ip man, crouching tiger, hidden dragon, the matrix). If you only watch one clip, check out this segment from the training montage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCk9VAxEpD0&t=156s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCk9VAxEpD0&t=156s Their use of visual boundaries and transitions is just so superb.

steveylang 5y ago

I love KFP and this article as well, but this one seems a bit off? > "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." > Life Lesson: You bring about what you focus on, whether good or bad. Oogway tells Shifu about his vision that Tai Lung will return, in response Shifu orders that guards and arms at the prison should be doubled to prevent Tai Lung's escape. Oogway then response with that line, which is basically saying no matter what he does, he's not going to prevent Tai Lung's escape. So the quote seems to be more about the wisdom of accepting your current circumstances so that you can better deal with them (the quote about stilling your mind comes right after.)

moviewise 5y ago
> Oogway then responds with that line, which is basically saying no matter what he does, he's not going to prevent Tai Lung's escape. This is the difference between fate and destiny. If what we do does not matter, then that is fate, which is very confining, like a prison where you are restricted from having any meaningful impact on your own life. If fate were true, we could all just sit in a room quietly, waiting for fate to intervene and lead us by the nose down a path we never expected. But that doesn't sound like the life we experience. We do make choices, those choices have consequences, and our lives are different because of the paths we took. This is destiny, and it has to do with what we choose to focus on, good or bad. If you spend your time doing things that are healthy for you and others, you and those around you become healthier. If instead you choose to focus on potential catastrophes, then that is what you and those around you experience. And this kind of focus will likely enable the catastrophe to materialize because part of you will be working to fulfill this negative expectation to justify all the life that was wasted in worrying about it. I believe this is a tenet of Karma in Jainism: "There is no retribution, judgment or reward involved but a natural consequences of the choices in life made either knowingly or unknowingly." "a good and virtuous life indicates a latent desire to experience good and virtuous themes of life. Therefore, such a person attracts karma that ensures that their future births will allow them to experience and manifest their virtues and good feelings unhindered" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

Uhhrrr 5y ago

Description of working on Kung Fu Panda from Dan Harmon (Community, Rick and Morty): > My hats off to anyone that can write a Dreamworks Animation film. They have a unique process. > First they storyboard the entire film. That is the first step. Not kidding. No writers, no script, just a story, and an entire film drawn on pieces of paper. > Then Katzenberg watches an animatic of the boards and says, surprisingly, "this needs a lot of work. You have a month." > Then they hire their first writer. And spend that month changing as much of the storyboards as they can, which is about 20 to 30 percent. If the 30 percent change isn't the right kind of change, people get fired. Maybe the director, maybe the writer, maybe both… > I came in about four writers into the process. It's kind of hard to write a "better" scene than the last writer when the rules are that you can only change 30 percent of each scene or completely change 30 percent of the scenes, per Katzenberg screening. So, for instance, in this scene, the panda comes up a flight of stairs carrying a bucket of water, slips on a banana peel, says something to two geese and does an air guitar. The good news? There can be anything in the bucket. Your mission: make the movie better. https://www.avclub.com/hilarious-things-to-put-in-kung-fu-pandas-bucket-1798214269 https://www.avclub.com/hilarious-things-to-put-in-kung-fu-pa...

rramadass 5y ago

Relevant; to get a good practical overview of Taoism/Confucianism/Buddhism "Wisdom" see Master of the Three Ways: Reflections of a Chinese Sage on Living a Satisfying Life by Hung Ying-Ming and translated by William Scott Wilson. Summary at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan