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Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest
- make3 5y agothat must be a terrible way to go.
- hackernewds 5y agoit should be. and then you watch these monks with absolute mental control just sitting in the fire meditating until they're ash
- sixQuarks 5y agoThis is one of the most fascinating things. It is close to a real life miracle in my opinion. To not even move when you’re experiencing that level of pain, it’s awe inspiring
- suifbwish 5y agoThey have the ability to turn off their pain entirely so it’s less of a miracle than if they were experiencing it.
- justinpowers 5y agoThey don’t “turn off” pain. Likely, they either objectify it (i.e. dispassionately observe the experience of pain) or ignore it (i.e. focus on a separate sensation) or dilute it (i.e. focus on “nothing” or alternatively, the all-encompassing sensation of “being”, the “now”, so that the experience of the pain is not the sole focus of their attention).
- emptysongglass 5y agoIf the sense door of anatta [1] I walked through almost a decade ago now is any indication it's the former. The pain is still pain and as vivid but because not-you there's no clinging therefore no suffering. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anattā https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anattā
- joeberon 5y ago
- bena 5y agoThey are experiencing it. Just because you aren't letting the pain dictate your actions, it doesn't mean you aren't experiencing it. It's about not letting your reflexes override your control.
- treeman79 5y agoIt’s absolutely shocking how much pain you can be in before losing control if your willpower is strong enough.
- emptysongglass 5y agoThere's no control to lose. There's no one suffering. The willpower to arrive at the experience is shocking but there's no sustaining of will once arrived at.
- pvaldes 5y ago> It’s shocking how much pain you can be in if your willpower is strong enough. Or you are drugged with something strong enough. A much simpler explanation that doesn't require to believe in guys developing supernatural superpowers.
- treeman79 5y agoI was speaking from personal experience. Including having my insides burned away for multiple minutes without numbing agent. Stupid doctor. Really bad kidney stone comes somewhat close to that. Or severe nerve damage that causes every waking moment to be a nightmare. That one isn’t Not as bad acute as kidney pain. But it lasts a long time and doctors always think your faking. One can build up a lot of tolerance.
- pvaldes 5y agoI'm sorry for your experience. Colon cancer treatment, I guess?. Hope you are better now.
- pvaldes 5y ago
- Aunche 5y agoAm I the only one who is deeply uncomfortable with the glorification of self-immolation in Tibet? These are nearly always young men, often times teenagers. One must question what sort of upbringing they must of had to sacrifice their life in that way for the sake of their religion.
- cycrutchfield 5y agoFor the sake of their religion? Or for the sake of their freedom?
- exolymph 5y agoIn a religious value system, to die for one's faith is the utmost privilege, a combined ordeal and honor to which most of us are not equal. Martyrs demonstrate absolute devotion and dedication — and they demonstrate the true cost of principles, which most of us refuse to pay. They shame and inspire us.
- maronato 5y ago> In the Buddhist belief, life is not confined to a period of 60 or 80 or 100 years: life is eternal. Life is not confined to this body: life is universal. To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction but to perform an act of construction, i.e., to suffer and to die for the sake of one’s people. https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-search-of-the-enemy-of-man/ https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-sea...
- collyw 5y agoGot to remember that Buddhists believe they they will be reborn.
- BuildTheRobots 5y agoMy understanding is that it's pretty much the worst way to go, and only really gets used by people trying to make a (usually political) statement. It also has form in this region - see Thích Quảng Đức. A desperate last stand to try and make a statement about censorship and repression, which ironically seems to have had all evidence censored and repressed. Truly awful.
- yumraj 5y agothat in itself should tell what the alternate was that the person chose to end his life like this over living like that.
- infocollector 5y agoI do wish the world would be more sympathetic to Ukraine and Tibet than it is currently (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet).
- zozbot234 5y agoIt's a big mess. The major rivers of India and China all originate in Tibet, so having that whole area be under the control of either one of these two actors is a recipe for ongoing stability concerns in the region.
- Santosh83 5y agoTibet has never been under the control of India as far as I know. It was an ethnically independent region in the past and now comes under the govt of China. So major Himalayan rivers originating in Tibet is a big gain for China and a strategic problem for India, considering China has already built several huge upstream damns across these rivers which irrigate much of N India.
- atdrummond 5y agoI suppose one could claim that at the time of the Convention of Lhasa, Tibet and much of India swore suzerainty to the same nation of Great Britain. There's also the concept of Arkhand Bharat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhand_Bharat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhand_Bharat) which is the notion of a unified Indian subcontinent.
- throwaway_1928 5y agoOne may also observe that India is primarily Hindu, while Tibet is primarily Buddhist, which is an offshoot of Hinduism. Present day China is communist atheist, which has a lot less in common with Buddhism than Hinduism does.
- dorfsmay 5y ago
- StopDarkPattern 5y agoThere are many authors and traditions that have escaped the Himalayas. Please support these authors and programs as much as possible so the passion and wisdom lives on.
- kepler1 5y agoWhat. are. you. talking about? Passion and wisdom? Is this just some knee-jerk suddenly enlightened mass market fortune cookie drivel that one spouts after seeing some movie about Tibet and finding yourself in tune with the mysticism of the Himalayas?
- werewolf 5y agoI believe many "Czechoslovaks" feel with Tibet and also Ukraine these days. For those interested in history of "living torches" fighting for freedom: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach
- soco 5y agoIn communist Romania, 2 March 1988... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Cornel_Babe%C8%99 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Cornel_Babe%C8%99
- Claude_Shannon 5y agoAnd in Soviet-occupied Poland... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec
- marius_k 5y agoRomas Kalanta in Lithuania 1972. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romas_Kalanta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romas_Kalanta
- CyanBird 5y agoYeah, the cases of normal US citizens lighting themselves on fire to protest against the war in Vietnam was jarring, they would also do it right in front of the White House or other centers of US power https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-immolations_in_protest_of_the_Vietnam_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-immolations_in...
- iancmceachern 5y agoThank you for posting this. It's history about my own country that I didn't know.
- dev_throw 5y agoReminds me of the Neruda quote: "You can crush the flowers, but you can't stop spring from coming." Free Tibet
- WithinReason 5y agoThe most famous self-immolation is of Thích Quảng Đức (photo): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c#Day_of_the_act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...
- monkeybutton 5y agoThe Arab spring started with one too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi
- latchkey 5y agoI lived very close to there and drove by the location every day. It is on a very busy street where you would never imagine that something like this would have happened. It wasn't until a local pointed it out to me that I realized what it was. The monument is beautiful. https://goo.gl/maps/k2dsRfHeNXYW2My2A https://goo.gl/maps/k2dsRfHeNXYW2My2A
- wefarrell 5y agoI'd encourage people to read the letter that Thich Nhat Hanh sent Martin Luther King on the self immolation of Vietnamese monks: https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-search-of-the-enemy-of-man/ https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-sea... That letter started a correspondence between the two that led to MLK speaking out against the war in Vietnam.
- marnett 5y agoVery relevant and very moving. Thank you for sharing.
- beebmam 5y agoI find it interesting how different of an explanation this letter gives for the immolation VS what actually happened: > Quảng Đức was protesting the persecution of Buddhists by the South Vietnamese government led by Ngô Đình Diệm, a staunch Roman Catholic. Photographs of his self-immolation circulated around the world, drawing attention to the policies of the Diệm government. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...
- exolymph 5y agoCan you spell out how that conflicts with Thich Nhat Hanh's letter? I'm not connecting the dots.
- nsajko 5y agoThe letter presents the self-immolations as a response to the war.
- h0l0cube 5y agoThe quote you've provided aligns very much with the sentiment of the letter: > I believe with all my heart that the monks who burned themselves did not aim at the death of the oppressors but only at a change in their policy. Their enemies are not man. They are intolerance, fanaticism, dictatorship, cupidity, hatred and discrimination which lie within the heart of man.
- peppertree 5y agoWhat would be the endgame for Tibetan independence. I can see it going straight to theocracy.
- orangepurple 5y agoSelf-determination
- stjohnswarts 5y agoIs it really self determination if you swap out one group of despots for another rather than installing a democracy?
- yumraj 5y agoIt's for them, as in Tibetans, to decide, not China, not CCP nor anyone else.
- peppertree 5y agoWhat are we going to do when Tibetans are ravaged by a theocratic government? Air drop some freedom and democracy. And maybe a few flag emojis on twitter.
- mbg721 5y agoWe can put a wager on it suddenly being Catholics again, and then we can continue being lazy.
- yumraj 5y agoWhat is wrong with a theocratic government if the people want it and it suits their way of life, especially if it is a peaceful spiritual way of life and makes people happy. Last I checked Bhutan, which is also Buddhist, was doing well. Also, I hope you're not saying that the way of the China/CCP is better than how Tibetans were before Chinese invasion. I don't think they were ever ravaged, unless you're referring to the Chinese propaganda to show them as the savior. And, if they were such a savior why are people killing themselves? Moreover, I'm assuming you're on a similar crusade against the Pope and other theocratic governments, of other religions, in the world.
- ffwszgf 5y agoWas he really that popular ? There’s very little about him online.
- edmcnulty101 5y agoI think this form of protest is outdated in modern times. We're constantly being bombarded by war footage, dead kids from school shootings, suicide bombings, and collapsing skyscrapers. This may have been significant back in the day but now it's hardly a blip on the radar of tragedies of people trying to send a message through violence. I personally find it to be a sad senseless outdated cultural practice , no matter what the message is. I find absolutely nothing powerful about killing oneself without taking a whole bunch of your enemies out at the same time.
- technobabbler 5y agoFreedom fighter or terrorist... once you use violence on your enemies, you obscure whatever your original message may have been and force public attention onto the violence instead. Do we remember Osama Bin Laden's pleas for justice, or just the collapsing skyscrapers? Self-sacrifice as an act of martyrdom lets you maintain the moral high ground, continue your role as the victim, and still speak your truth -- however quietly, in the modern attention-deficit, compassion-fatigued era. Also, keep in mind the power differential between China and Tibet. There is no feasible way for Tibet to even put up a fight, much less win an actual armed conflict. Suicide bombing would just bring even more terrible oppressions upon their people. The self-immolation isn't an act of grand military strategy. It's a desperate cry for justice in this world or their next, whispered into the wind and carried to an uncaring world. It's the sort of thing that requires a deep commitment to one's values, knowing its ultimate effect and still choosing to go through with it, not because it's strategically useful but only because you are exercising what little agency you have left with the ideals you've carried your whole life.
- pasquinelli 5y agoi can't agree about taking out a bunch of your enemies. the photographs of thich quang duc had such an impact because the practice was novel to the west. that novelty is gone. but there isn't any novelty in suicide bombing either. as far as sending a message goes, they are both outdated practices and a waste.
- skilled 5y agoI lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in Buddhism at the time, too. In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a book about it. It was kind of funny to walk in into a book store, see these two guys drinking tea and then get pulled into a conversation out of curiosity. But, as for the stories themselves, probably not that funny. Some of the people (monks, mostly) had physical scars and their stories were anything but fun. I also went to their offices (a modest distance away from the Dalai Lama temple, but very walkable) and got to speak to senior officials there. I asked them basics questions like, "What do you think is the future for Tibet?" and they were very accommodating. We had tea, laughed and talked life. At first they thought I was a journalist, which was hilarious since my approach was very blunt but curious at the same time.
- technobabbler 5y agoSo... what did they think was the future for Tibet?
- skilled 5y agoI certainly didn't ask that question from a political perspective. I'm not delusional to assume that Tibet and its people stand a chance against China. And this was also reflected in their answers. They're mostly concerned with ensuring that people have a safe passage out of there (having the ability to go to India and lead a life without oppression), while trying to negotiate peace deals for sacred locations and the deep Tibet. But I do think that this has been consistently falling on deaf ears. And, of course, they are hoping that the Dalai Lama will choose to reincarnate again to keep the "fight" going. Getting out of Tibet is not exactly a walk in the park. Though, it is a walk. A long and gloomy walk through treacherous mountains which in 70%+ cases leave people with frostbite and other injuries. I befriended a yoga teacher who was teaching an authentic Tibetan practice, and he sometimes had people over at his studio who had the day prior arrived to Dharamshala, from Tibet, through the mountain passages. It's unreal. It's not like they have the luxury of an empire conglomerate like other modern countries, but India has been good to them.
- cyberpunk 5y agoAs a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some pretty mad shit. I’ve never worked out what china wants in Tibet tbh though, does anyone have a clue? Chan is bigger in .cn than Tibetan Buddhism (and chan (which became zen) also rejects any kind of eternal self / reincarnation / non-impermanence) and so thus there are no such thing as a lama. So I guess the restrictions / bad business china got unto in tibet are related to some kind of territorial dispute? But what’s there? What do they gain? I can’t see how it’s making them a profit..
- mytailorisrich 5y agoTibet is strategically located and has been part of the Great Game in Asia for a long time. In fact, the British tried to invade it at the very beginning of the 20th century but hard landscape and the Tibetan and Chinese armies repelled them. Following that the Western powers even signed a treaty recognizing Chinese sovereignty over Tibet...
- DeusExMachina 5y agoTibet provides a lot of water to China and India
- cyberpunk 5y agoAnd what, china thinks tibet will somehow find a way to stop rivers running? Or the kind of people who move individual ants while building temples would poison such waters? I still don't get it. Maybe it's those little blue flowers from Batman Begins they're after? >_<
- soperj 5y agoIf they don't take it, who will?
- new_guy 5y ago
- okasaki 5y agoYou literally are advocating irl violence though.
- RONROC 5y ago
- tomohawk 5y agoWhat the CCP is doing to Tibet is beyond belief. The ethnic cleansing they pioneered there was perfected in East Turkistan.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
- gerdesj 5y agoThis gentleman set himself on fire. I will remember him.
- alexgao 5y agoTibet is a Chinese territory, just as the Americans cannot carve out Alaska.
- allisdust 5y agoYes. At least till China implodes into a thousand disjoint pieces. Tibet's salvation will come.
- throwaway5486nv 5y agoWhat would set china to likely partition itself? Meaning religion, culture what can it be. Currently it looks like china is pretty homogeneous?
- lobochrome 5y agoContainment for China next please.
- WhitneyLand 5y agoThe article is poignant and worth reading. This young man chose to die for his beliefs. “The self-immolation of young Tibetans like Tsewang Norbu, who seems to have it all, lays bare China’s claim that the spate of self-immolations that have engulfed the Tibetan plateau since 2009 is triggered by psychological and livelihood issues. China continues to hatch strategies to win the hearts and minds of the new generation of Tibetans in its Sinicization project, but the self-immolation protests by young Tibetans like Yonten and Tsewang Norbu expose how China’s ill-intent strategies in Tibet is deeply hurting young Tibetans. To prevent self-immolations and save lives, TCHRD calls on China to halt its Sinicization programs and uphold the human rights of Tibetans to protect and promote their culture and language, and freely exercise basic freedoms including freedom of expression and freedom to practice one’s religion or belief.”
- weq 5y agoFighting the good fight! Unlike those who die of selfies. If he set himself on fire while jumping 50 cars, he would get more likes though. Somehow i dont think peaceful protests mean anything to a government intent on genocide like the Spanish, Germans and the Brits of the past.
- fagkiller69 5y ago
- fagkiller69 5y ago
- Sporktacular 5y agoI hope the fact this happened is spread far and wide. It's depressing that the Chinese government will try to suppress this, trying to deny any meaning to this man's death.
- mjbeswick 5y agoThis sort of protest only hurts the cause of Tibet, as it is a demonstration of extremism. By most standards the only person that would set themselves on fire is a religious fanatic or someone suffering from mental illness.
- Sporktacular 5y agoThat's for people everywhere to interpret as they will, without propagandist interference. To everyone I've ever know it's always been a powerful demonstration of desperation. Every such incident I've seen has been taken abroad that way. Except by CCP shills who prefer to call it... 'extremism'... mmm.
- DragonL80 5y agoThe banter and discussion here is great and I love to see all the culture discussion, but I'm compelled to ask, why is this in hacker news? Not that I mind, just seems a bit, off-topic?