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GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven without connecting to WiFi

607 points by ilamont 5y ago

ivolimmen 5y ago
This is why I love living in Europe. We do not require an app for stuff. If I let someone remodel my kitchen I can tell the person what kind op appliances I like and they have to obey that.
c7DJTLrn 5y ago
I hope the oven has a better reset process than GE lightbulbs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o
- d_tr 5y ago
  Firmware version two point nine with Turn Time 2 will be a real game changer. I think I 'll wait.
egberts1 5y ago
Return it back to the store. Not worth the trouble.
qm_ashwin 5y ago
This sounds very similar to what happens in Cory Doctorow's Radicalization.
mushyhammer 5y ago
“Smart” appliances are so idiotic this has stopped being funny many moons ago and it saddens me that it’s such a sad state of affairs. Even the best consumer electronics companies generate such frustrating software that I’m losing faith in the profession itself. Why is software so difficult and when will it stop?
dt2m 5y ago
At this point the best solution might almost be legislation banning touch screens from cars and home appliances...
- version_five 5y ago
  Or mandating any that include wifi, touch screen, anything running code to be open source and able to be modified by the user.
  - loonster 5y ago
    This wouldn't be good enough. Imagine pan frying something on your range, the food splatters, and it changes the temperature on you. Now you need to adjust the burner back down (or off), but you can't adjust the temperature because the controls are now wet with grease. Better be quick to dry off controls and turn off heat before you start a grease fire. Or failing that, moving the pan off from the heat source... Just ban them.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Or merely restrict non-consensual data collection like the GDPR does - this kills the underlying reason why every appliance has to be "smart" and internet-connected.
    - _-david-_ 5y ago
      Are there more options to buy non-smart TVs in the EU than the US?
      - squarefoot 5y ago
        https://www.swedx.com https://www.swedx.com I'm not aware of other manufacturers, although Samsung also makes signage displays but it's not clear if they employ any "smart" features. Some also use Tizen which is Linux based and should be open enough to allow rooting.
- gpm 5y ago
version_five 5y ago
Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point. A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea what the solution is. Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that, that's the gist of what I remember)
- civilized 5y ago
  Also reminds me of laptops being bundled with tons of crapware no one would ever use. A lot easier to just delete that stuff than to remove an appliance from your home though.
- xfitm3 5y ago
  I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pinewurst 5y ago
  Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single form-factor.
- rasz 5y ago
  Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want.
  - version_five 5y ago
    Thanks for the insight!
elmerfud 5y ago
Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance for warranty repair. Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote with their dollars this kind of trash will not change. I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that says internet connection required to function. Most of these things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a fine benefit for those people who want that kind of interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook. The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time.
- azemetre 5y ago
  I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. This is what regulation is all about.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
ilamont 5y ago
One of the replies mentions Samsung's similar requirement frustrating his elderly relative. According to a 2015 OECD computer skills study, <6% of Americans are level 3 (highest) while half have only basic skills and 20% can't use computers. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926...
- wereHamster 5y ago
  Share of adults proficient at problem-solving in technology-rich environments: https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24 https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24 … there are other indicators that are related as well, in the https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use and https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society dimensions.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    This data is disturbingly eye opening. Only ~5% of folks in the US are able to navigate through webpages and apps when doing so is required so solve a particular problem. And it's not like this is just a US problem, the highest percentage across the measured countries is a measly 10%. And the example task they used - using webpages and apps to find a job - is more and more based solely online these days. I think I need to go make another donation to our local library for their work in helping folks navigate these tasks...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - vba616 5y ago
      Many places that hire employees that don't have their own computers have like a little computer lab. I remember Target being like that around 2005, and a hospital in 2017 or so. The employees, or volunteers, help people that have trouble. I remember someone being very angry that she was required to provide proof of graduating high school or something when it was like 30 years ago and the school didn't even exist anymore.
voakbasda 5y ago
At a former job, I worked on the low-level OS support for GE devices. With that perspective, I would never buy one of their products that contains any software, and I actively warn others not to buy them. I worked on medical devices. Imagine how much worse the software will be on devices that do not have that level of regulatory scrutiny.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- loonster 5y ago
  I have a GE Profile Induction Range. I both love and hate it. Idiots that designed it used capacitive touch sensors to adjust everything, including temperature of the burners. Think of using your phone with wet hands. Now imagine pan frying something on the range and it splatters adjusting the temperature to max. Need to have presence of mind to either dry the sensor and turn off, or remove pan from range so it auto turns off. Many manufacturers are doing the same thing and not just GE. Someone is going to have their house burn down because of this design decision.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    The “store wow factor” is getting out of control. Devices that look great on the showroom floor but completely impractical in use. Commercial market products sometimes avoid this but commercial ovens usually aren’t insulated at all.
  - vosper 5y ago
    I think that’s actually common for induction cooktops of many brands. I believe the reason is so to keep the surface a single flat sheet of glass. They’re incredibly easy to clean compared to any other kind of cooktop. But I agree, not so great to use. On my last one if any water spilled on the capacitive area (eg because of boil over) it would “panic” and completely switch off. I still love induction and I would rather have it with capacitive buttons than any other kind of cooktop, and I have a high-end gas one.
londons_explore 5y ago
Usually this is because the product was rushed out of the circuit board factory in China months ago with very barebones firmware. At the time this firmware was made, they probably hadn't even built the convection roast mode. It needs WiFi to update the firmware to one which hopefully does perform as promised. After that you can probably disconnect the WiFi again.
- neoglow 5y ago
  I find it hard to call this a good argument for why this is. If an appliance does not work out of the box, it is not finished and not ready to ship to customers. The game industry does this, which is crap, but appliances are people use to cook their meals and should not be unfinished. If you are right, it should be illegal.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    In a world of investors demanding large percentage returns on their investments, investing money in a programmer and then not being able to sell a product to the public for a year isn't financially viable. The time between doing the work and getting paid must be minimized to get decent returns. That's why they develop the firmware while the hardware is on the boat. With games and games consoles it's really noticeable - there is no games console you can buy and use without a day-1 update to make it functional.
  - avar 5y ago
    > The game industry does this, which is crap No, it's fantastic. If they did what you think you want you'd get the same games perhaps a year later. So because they're doing it you can get what you'd have gotten anyway and more, because if you just buy games after they've been out for a while you'll likely get a large discount. And people who are big fans of the franchise can get the game earlier if they want, and essentially pay for being beta testers. It's a win-win.
mberning 5y ago
This is why licensing your brand is such a double edged sword. GE has had nothing to do with engineering appliances for many years, yet you can still take the reputational hit when things like this come to light.
paxys 5y ago
The right time to complain about this would have been before you bought the oven. Companies are only going to stop these practices if shoppers vote with their wallets.
oh_sigh 5y ago
So if you click the "dismiss" button that is clearly labeled on the message, you still can't use the oven?
- capcor 5y ago
- bombcar 5y ago
  You can’t use the “enhanced features” one of which apparently is convection.
TheBill 5y ago
Oh man, this reminds me of a story - GE Profile oven in a ski condo, last day or second to last day we were there. Broke in a way that you couldn't open the door - and we couldn't get the bacon out. Wound up reading the repair manual and a forum while the GF cooked eggs, trying to figure it out. The Solenoid that is used to lock the door when it goes through a clean cycle has to be powered on 100% of the time, and keeps its spring compressed. Power turns off to lock it. If the insulator/bushing for it breaks, it will jam open & lock the door. Family will never buy GE appliances after this happened. Mom just bought a new Kitchenaid that's got exactly 0 smart features.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  That's hilarious. It was an engineer trying to be fake safe. Losing control over your device is going to be less safe than just letting the user open the door during a clean cycle if the power drops.
- bombcar 5y ago
  The worst part of this stuff is you never find out about it until long after the purchase is over. Unless you happen to know a brand that’s good (say Speed Queen for now) you are stuck trying to guess what issues may occur someday.
  - bob1029 5y ago
    > Speed Queen The only vendor who still sells a washer without lid lock... I'm looking at getting their TC5 to replace this piece of shit maytag that doesnt fill up properly.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      I have to admire the absolute ingeniousness to make it only on the high end one heh. I suspect you could just buy the parts - they’re all very similar internally even sharing parts with the commercial models.
- tragomaskhalos 5y ago
RansomStark 5y ago
Every time I see a story like this I'm reminded how close we are to unauthorized bread [0] and it saddens me each time. Humanity was given the greatest communication tool we could imagine and we use it to spy on people and steal their data, so companies can sell more shit. What a waste. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-bread https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-br... On a side note, I'm convinced Doctorow is the greatest cyberpunk writer there is, but I'm also sure the reason for this is because earlier writers had to imagine a dystopian future. Doctorow, like the rest of us, is living that future (which is much more boring that fiction made out) and he's simply documenting what he sees.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  There's also the classic verification can: https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF . Not exactly the same thing but tangentially related.
- calumetregion 5y ago
  Agree, but this assumes humans would ever had used it for anything else.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Every time I read about the latest smart-appliance fad, the Amish look a little bit more prudent, and I get one day closer to buying something good and low-tech from Lehman's or the like https://www.lehmans.com/ https://www.lehmans.com/
amelius 5y ago
People should massively buy this oven and return it. Because that's what this company deserves for being so user-hostile.
- criddell 5y ago
  Inventory of appliances is down quite a bit right now. It might not be possible to massively buy the oven.
shreddit 5y ago
I’m starting to think people buy this stuff on purpose to get attention on the internet by complaining about it. Why on earth would i buy an oven with Wi-Fi and NOT think the manufacturer would enforce the use of it…
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I think it is a legitimate complaint, even if they did post a disclaimer in the ad that said you had to connect to WiFi for full features. The market is having a tough time adjusting to this tactic, which seems to work primarily by preying on consumers that mostly do not know better. It's how we ended up with all good quality large televisions being Smart TVs, with no viable alternative. So people should complain, publicly, loudly, and demonstrate that a market exists for dumb devices.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  This isn't at all a common expectation. I own five Wi-Fi enabled devices, and only one (the Chromecast) makes any attempt to enforce the use of it.
  - dtgriscom 5y ago
    Hypothetically, what would you like do with a Chromecast without access to a network?
    - vetinari 5y ago
      Theoretically, Google Nest Mini (not Chromecast, I know, but close) could be used as a bluetooth speaker. But I never managed to do it. Trying to enable pairing always ends up with an error message.
      - bobsmooth 5y ago
        You have to connect to it through the Home app to stream.
askura 5y ago
That's crazy. I wonder which company get the kickback for having these installed in newbuilds? Bet you'll find a link there.
CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
Reminds me of this news from yesterday https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-stoomoven-te-zijn-en-werkt-niet-meer-na-foute.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-... (Dutch, couldn't find an English source) AEG microwave thinks it's an steam oven after update, don't think even The Onion could come up with this.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Now imagine a future where all these appliances have personalities and then this happens, rendering your oven and friend useless! Man, I have to read Only Forward once again. Lovely book
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  After you grind in the kitchen on 100 hot chocolates and 50 bags of popcorn, you have enough XP to level up. The software developers just forgot to lock out that feature. Personally I’d rather morph into an air fryer.
xadhominemx 5y ago
Ok, so connect it to the wifi
teekert 5y ago
It clearly says that the WiFi gives you the better experience ;) Btw you know what is also garbage? Scrolling through a twitter thread in your browser and then halfway through reading some sentence the whole screen goes black and it tells you to log in. I literally had all I wanted to read on the screen already but I couldn’t finish it.
- tgv 5y ago
  Use nitter.net.
- gdulli 5y ago
  It doesn't do that in private mode.
noAnswer 5y ago
I recently had to install a new Netgear switch (GS724TPP) for a customer. It won't let you use "advanced" features like VLAN without registering it to a Cloud account first! (It was on a construction side with unfinished internet.) I told my boss to never buy Netgear again.
- vetinari 5y ago
  I had a similar issue with Ubiquiti Unifi gear... trying to set it up on a site about a week before Internet connection would be available. The funny thing it was before it started to require cloud accounts (UDM et al). Just without being able to connect to the Internet, I could not complete the setup.
teekert 5y ago
It is at least nice to hear that the touchscreen experience was nice. Recently I had 2 experiences where I longed back to older tech. A Siemens oven/microwave in a rented cabin that had an awful menu filled with options and took 4 steps to get to the function I needed, whereas my 10 y/o AEG I hit the function I want (key with icon immediately accessible) and then start. And, my own 2006 Ford has a BT module (aftermarket) which just starts when I start the car and it connects and works. My parents Dacia has a fancy system that takes 2 min to boot and then I need to try a couple of times and then it connects, really annoying, yeah it has a large touchscreen but I much prefer my ancient 1 line LCD display. Now that I think about it, my oven has a one line old glowy numbers display. Maybe the limited displays force much more thought into how to make funtions accessible.
lsllc 5y ago
Haven't bought appliances in a long time but we recently replaced most of the appliances with LG Thinq units, incl. a Wifi enabled refrigerator, oven, washer and dryer. I have to say the Wifi enabled refrigerator is next to useless, I guess it tells me the temp and when the water filter needs changing ... not things I need. (and it only works on 2Ghz, so you need a separate 2Ghz only WLAN for it). The Wifi oven is actually useful, because when you have that "did I leave the oven on" moment after you have left the house, not only can you check, but you can remotely turn it off. It's also useful for starting the oven preheat as you're buying that frozen pizza at the store so you can come home to a hot oven ready to go. The periodic "your oven needs cleaning" notifications are annoying though. By far the Wifi enabled washer and dryer are the most useful! You get a notification when the wash/dry is done! and the washer will keep reminding you until you open the door on the unit so you don't end up forgetting and then having to rewash to avoid smelly clothes. (weirdly, only the fridge had the 2Ghz only problem, must use different hardware)
- dtgriscom 5y ago
  > 2Ghz Do you mean 2.4GHz?
  - lsllc 5y ago
    Yeah!
- novok 5y ago
  Woo, your house now has a internet accessible & hackable remote fire starter where someone could leave your oven / stove on at max for hours until something ignites and burns the entire house down!
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    Yeah, that would be a hard no for me, personally. I wouldn't let them hook my generator up to the internet either.
  - x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
jacquesm 5y ago
I can see a service come into existence where you can have 'smart' appliances defanged.
FourthProtocol 5y ago
In my social and work bubble nobody I've spoken to about it watches live TV anymore, myself included. News is consumed online (primarily Economist, Guardian and BBC, but not exclusively). TV does XBox, DVDs (I've amassed over 1000¹) and streaming (via Xbox and an old laptop). So of course any dumb disaplay with an HDMI connector will do the job. Sports events often also stream live, or can be watched in the pub. So beyond that, does live TV offer that much value that it merits a Smart TV? ¹ Of course most won't have such a library - but it offers nothing more or less than streaming does.
- damontal 5y ago
  Sports, if you care about sports.
  - novok 5y ago
    Even live sports is special app that fits in well with the streaming lifestyle.
- drdec 5y ago
  In my experience, people want smart TVs for streaming, not for watching live TV. The value proposition for the non technical person is that all the streaming apps are available right in the TV and easy to use.
- sixstringtheory 5y ago
  > [A DVD] offers nothing more or less than streaming does No way! DVDs have all sorts of extra features you can’t get via streaming services, like director commentaries or even feature documentaries. Plus alternate language tracks. Keep that library, sounds valuable!
sdoering 5y ago
I recently wanted to buy a Bluetooth speaker for my mom. From experience I was looking for a small Bose speaker. It wasn't available. They recommended a Sonos alternative. I looked at the packaging. The price was only slightly below the Bose "equivalent". At home I wanted to quickly connect the speaker to the computer and was dumbstruck with the requirement to connect it to her wireless and install the App to configure it. Also I had to agree to Sonos transmitting every app I used to stream music, every song I heard, inclusive of the account names. This being sold without disclaimer or information that the device is unusable without such a data striptease, app install and wlan was quite irritating. I put the device back into the packaging, brought it back to the store and ordered a Bose for her.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  Bose does something similar for their headphones unfortunately. Only some basic functionality is available without the app.
  - vageli 5y ago
    > Only some basic functionality is available without the app. What functionality is lacking without the app?
    - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
      You can't adjust the noise cancellation.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      Adjusting the equalizer, fine adjustments to noise cancelling, disconnecting devices that it thinks are playing sound.
      - Handytinge 5y ago
        How would you manage these functions normally without an app? I'd think an equalizers interface is complex enough that most headphones would simply not be able to provide adjustment options.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
I'm curious about this from a U.S. legal perspective. Suppose I advertise (and sell) a product without clearly informing the buyer of additional requirements they'll face in order to use the product as advertised. E.g., access functionality via WiFi, accept an EULA, etc. At what point does that become fraud or illegally deceptive advertising? I'm assuming that there's some allowance for assuming common knowledge, e.g. that an electric oven will require a 220-240V connection. But if there's a legal line to be crossed, where is it?
- gambiting 5y ago
  He literally shows a screenshot in the article with the line highlighted telling you that you have to connect an app to unlock some features. You'd have a hard time arguing that's deceptive advertising.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Sorry, I only noticed that after writing my comment. So maybe my question applies to other situations but not this particular one.
firefoxd 5y ago
That reminds me of my Westinghouse Radio hub[1]. They abandoned the product and the domain expired. So naturally, it couldn't play the radio. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759
malkia 5y ago
My Toyota Venza's rear camera (2009) won't work, if the Map DVD can't be loaded :(in my case it was just the DVD reader got busted or something), but such critical part as rear camera should not fail the Map Navigator it's not working (at least nowadays there are alternatives you can swap easily - e.g. your phone, not so easy with rear camera).
chasedehan 5y ago
All this “smart” stuff kills me for basic appliances that no Wi-Fi should ever be needed for. Example: I am in the process of building a custom home with the ability to purchase whatever we want - when looking at ovens I told the salesperson that I didn’t want anything that has to connect to the internet and the response was that I would need to pick out something lower end because everything “high end” has the connectivity now. Even dishwashers.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  Check out Blue Star.
- zionic 5y ago
  I went through something similar. I just made sure all the high end appliances I got didn’t need WiFi to work. Having the capability (but not connected) hasn’t limited anything at all so far.
zxcvbn4038 5y ago
The problem with this trend is what happens in 2-3 years when the manufacturer decides they don’t want to update the app anymore? I have ovens that are twenty years old, my washing machine was made in the 1950s (and has so much steel I think it can be used as a tank in times of war). I’m pretty sure appliances today aren’t built to the same standard but seems foolish to have to throw everything away every few years because the app isn’t being updated for the latest iOS or it’s not compatible with wifi7 or similar. At least with my AC I can fall back to the remote or front panel. In this case you don’t even get that option.
pickledcods 5y ago
Because it is internet connected, and possibly only works when internet connected, you are dependent on the manufacturer after purchase. Does it have a built in web-server that can device-independent access all functions through a local net. If not then it sounds to me like after-sales. What are the after-sales terms? Is there a contract? Are you going to pay for an after-sales subscription? If not, how is their business model to finance it? How is your privacy or personal identification involved? How long will the product be supported (Planned obsolescence)? Can you block automatic-updates? Can you downgrade the firmware? What are your legal options if they close down the service before product end-of-lifetime? Or liability if the product gets hacked and destroys/damages property? Will refusing after-sales influence warranty? What are their terms & conditions to ban your access to the device? What are the non-automated options in case of disputes? What are the options/rights when escalating complaints? Sounds like these questions should be answered on the box before you (or the person installing it) should open it. Or in the first section of EULA in layman's terms.
nop_slide 5y ago
Ha! I have a fun one. We recently had our first child. I finally opened a thermometer we were gifted from a shower and low and behold, the thing can not take a temperature without downloading an app. It has a digital screen and everything, but you when you first power it on you are greeted with it displaying "APP" and you HAVE to download the app & set it up before it will work. When we finally took the temperature, the damn thing still didn't even display it on the screen, it sent the reading to the app. I don't even know what the point of the screen is. This thing also wants to "anonymously" share your temp readings and location with the community stating it will help and let you know if there are diseases spreading locally. It went against my dignity to download it and use the thing, but it was 10:00PM and checking our baby's temp at the time was more important. Still it was the most asinine smart-device experience I have had to date.
- smarnach 5y ago
  The screen exists so the thermometer can tell you to download the app.
  - esperent 5y ago
    The app exists so that your data, and your baby's, can be harvested and sold.
    - lmkg 5y ago
      PROTIP: This data is not protected by HIPAA because your insurance wasn't involved.
      - bpodgursky 5y ago
        PROTIP: Do not get your data governance advice from HN comments
        tzs 5y ago
        In this case though he was probably right about the data not being covered by HIPAA, but the reason he gave was incomplete. Here's a pretty good explanation of HIPAA in the context of health apps [1]. [1] https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr-health-app-developer-scenarios-2-2016.pdf https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr-health-app-devel...
donohoe 5y ago
I know a fair number of people who have internet connected fridges, thermostats, cars, air quality monitors, and so on. Most of them don't work in tech. Those that do have very few and seek out 'dumb' versions. I count myself in that group. Next time I need a new TV it will not be a smart one. My current on has Roku but not its showing ads... so now I use TV exclusively through my Apple TV. Sigh
mhh__ 5y ago
I quite like the idea of being able to remote control the oven and maybe have a camera view inside but these smart appliances always do something batshit that scares me off
phs318u 5y ago
One possible solution is to buy the cheapest, low-power wifi hub you can find. Plug it in and DO NOT connect it to the internet. Then make this wifi network the target for all your "I wish they were dumb" appliances. EDIT: assuming that the appliance only insists on wifi connection and not internet connection.
- _nickwhite 5y ago
  You could also do this with an iPhone hotspot- although the connected device _will_ have Internet access. Not sure if that's a problem for an oven or not.
  - zionic 5y ago
    This is a great solution to get past setup. Presumably most devices would continue to function once you kick them off hotspot.
markus_zhang 5y ago
I wonder how difficult it is to de-smart these devices? Like hacking into the software and only allow the basic functionalities.
ReflectedImage 5y ago
Clearly, they had to ship the oven before they could write the convection roasting software. With a quick 240 GB download your oven will be fully working until patch v1.1 next month.
userbinator 5y ago
Buy used, pre-"smart" appliances that are 100% under your control. There's a huge aftermarket of parts availability and repair information for them, and they tend to be reliable and simple to fix if they do break. Every time I read about something like this I'm happy that all of mine are roughly from mid-century and dumb. Countless dumb appliances are scrapped all the time; it's not hard to find one for cheap or even free, and that only needs a minor repair and cleaning to continue working for many more decades.
qiskit 5y ago
Why does an oven need this? Is the idea that everything will be connect to the internet and need the manufacturers permission to use? Will I need American Standard's permission to flush my toilet one day? Where does this end? After reading this, I'd be pissed off: "Smart ovens require a WiFi connection for the best experience." After reading this, I'd be absolutely besides myself: "Please connect to unlock the latest features and receive important software updates." Of course all of this is just to collect data on you. Sooner or later, all these devices will have cameras and voice recorders to better "serve"/observe you with voice/face recognition/etc. "Smart" devices, "smart" homes, "smart" cars, etc. When will we get "smart" clothes. That'll be nice. Your zipper won't work unless it has a wifi connection to Gap.
- x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
  After a year of having to continuously adjust my oven's block because it would drift 10 minutes faster over the course of a month, I finally decided to connect it to the wifi with the remote hope that it would connect to an NTP server. Looks like I got lucky, and it's finally keeping proper time. I _did_ go the extra step of completely blocking all other network connectivity to and from that thing.
LoveMortuus 5y ago
I really dislike this trend... My parents own a robotic vacuume cleaner, which also requires you to login to companies servers before you can unlock all the functionality. I'm of the opinion that a device should be as independent as possible. Maybe to achieve special functionality you can implement a remote but that too should work as independently as possible. Anything more then this is just a sin, anti-consumer behaviour. There is absolutely no reason why must login to a server that's on the other side of the planet just to tell the vacuume cleaner to clean only a part of my room... The problem is that the majority of people don't care and they'll just buy a new device/robot cleaner once the company turns their servers off, because let's face it we're still very fast away from a law that would force companies to open source their stuff before they shutdown everything for good. This kind of behaviour is just making the e-waste problem worse...
Xcelerate 5y ago
What’s funny is my oven claims it’s owned by someone else and says I have to contact Whirlpool with proof of ID to change it. Not sure how I feel about my oven gaslighting me.
marcodiego 5y ago
The day will come when products with stickers saying things like "non-connected" or "non-smart" will sell more.
jayd16 5y ago
Would be funny if the convection oven code slipped to a day 1 patch instead of this being nefarious user metric scraping. I'm not sure which explanation is worse.
tony-allan 5y ago
I’m sure it been said but what happens when the app is no longer supported?
exodust 5y ago
My Bosch dishwasher does it the right way. The app is optional, and WiFi can be disabled via the front panel settings so it doesn't scan for networks every time it powers on. Well done Bosch. Not so well done is my "Beddi" alarm clock by Witti Design. Every time the snooze button is pressed, bluetooth is activated in an attempt to connect with the app. This happens even when bluetooth was deactivated before the alarm goes off, and even when only the internal buzzer is used as the alarm choice, with no smart features used. I asked them about this and they replied saying most people want the smart features of the clock, so they just decided to make bluetooth scanning non-optional. Interesting how they "know" what most people want. Imagine being usage-tracked from literally the moment you wake up and perform your first action for the day - hitting the snooze button. I understand some people choose to have the clock connect with the app on pressing snooze, but the option to disable that and have it remain disabled should be available.
HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
aww_dang 5y ago
I can see where this could spur a market for replacement firmware or entire electronics packages for home appliances. Appliance repair technicians would be paid to install or "upgrade".
keiferski 5y ago
The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please." He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you." "I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt." ...he found the contract. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. "You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug. - Ubik, Phillip K. Dick (1969)
jrcplus 5y ago
What's the need for this on GE's side? What was the product manager thinking? Is the idea to collect and monetize usage data, or something else? There must be a reason (?).
IYasha 5y ago
Games won't install or run without connecting to blocked or decommissioned servers, printers won't accept "foreign" cartridges, scanners won't scan, DVDs/BDs won't play without auth, TPM, DRM... What a time to be alive! (
neycoda 5y ago
See, but, this is acceptable because you just buy another oven that doesn't require WiFi. Easy right? Until all manufacturers require it.
dariosalvi78 5y ago
Internet of Shit classic!
emiliosic 5y ago
Sometimes in 2016 we were working on a kitchen renovation and decided on a built-in double oven, and went with GE's offering. I seriously considered $ 300 more for the top-shelf offering that included convection on both ovens and Wi-Fi connectivity. Back then Haier just bought GE Appliances and that made me waver. Also I knew their fridges with Wi-Fi were running Windows CE, what I didn't think it would have a long future, and integration through a now chinese/american company didn't quite appeal me. In the end bought the version without Wi-Fi and only one convection oven, which has proven more than enough. The advantage of Wi-Fi we though would be to be able to set the oven to cook the food left on it by the time we arrived from work. But then again food had to be left at room temperature most of the day, so we figured it wouldn't be something we would use too often. Now after two years of working from home, this became more irrelevant. Now my house is as automated as I can possibly make it, but running local mesh networks (Z-Wave and Zigbee), and the few Wi-Fi devices are HomeKit enabled, which means it should not depend on 3rd party cloud offerings for standard functionality, and has been mostly limited to decorative lighting developed in North American or European companies.
sccuca 5y ago
Paying $3800 for an oven is the first mistake. I build high end custom kitchens and have never had a client pay that much for an oven/stove unless it's a commercial type (Viking etc.). Some people have to much money and not enough brains.
pcvarmint 5y ago
You will own nothing, and be happy.

607 points by ilamont 5y ago

This is why I love living in Europe. We do not require an app for stuff. If I let someone remodel my kitchen I can tell the person what kind op appliances I like and they have to obey that.

c7DJTLrn 5y ago

I hope the oven has a better reset process than GE lightbulbs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o

d_tr 5y ago
Firmware version two point nine with Turn Time 2 will be a real game changer. I think I 'll wait.

egberts1 5y ago

Return it back to the store. Not worth the trouble.

qm_ashwin 5y ago

This sounds very similar to what happens in Cory Doctorow's Radicalization.

mushyhammer 5y ago

“Smart” appliances are so idiotic this has stopped being funny many moons ago and it saddens me that it’s such a sad state of affairs. Even the best consumer electronics companies generate such frustrating software that I’m losing faith in the profession itself. Why is software so difficult and when will it stop?

dt2m 5y ago

At this point the best solution might almost be legislation banning touch screens from cars and home appliances...

version_five 5y ago
Or mandating any that include wifi, touch screen, anything running code to be open source and able to be modified by the user.
- loonster 5y ago
  This wouldn't be good enough. Imagine pan frying something on your range, the food splatters, and it changes the temperature on you. Now you need to adjust the burner back down (or off), but you can't adjust the temperature because the controls are now wet with grease. Better be quick to dry off controls and turn off heat before you start a grease fire. Or failing that, moving the pan off from the heat source... Just ban them.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Or merely restrict non-consensual data collection like the GDPR does - this kills the underlying reason why every appliance has to be "smart" and internet-connected.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    Are there more options to buy non-smart TVs in the EU than the US?
    - squarefoot 5y ago
      https://www.swedx.com https://www.swedx.com I'm not aware of other manufacturers, although Samsung also makes signage displays but it's not clear if they employ any "smart" features. Some also use Tizen which is Linux based and should be open enough to allow rooting.
gpm 5y ago

version_five 5y ago

Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point. A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea what the solution is. Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that, that's the gist of what I remember)

civilized 5y ago
Also reminds me of laptops being bundled with tons of crapware no one would ever use. A lot easier to just delete that stuff than to remove an appliance from your home though.
xfitm3 5y ago
I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance.
deleted 5y ago
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pinewurst 5y ago
Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single form-factor.
rasz 5y ago
Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want.
- version_five 5y ago
  Thanks for the insight!

elmerfud 5y ago

Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance for warranty repair. Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote with their dollars this kind of trash will not change. I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that says internet connection required to function. Most of these things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a fine benefit for those people who want that kind of interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook. The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time.

azemetre 5y ago
I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. This is what regulation is all about.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the "Unauthorized Bread" story: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).

ilamont 5y ago

One of the replies mentions Samsung's similar requirement frustrating his elderly relative. According to a 2015 OECD computer skills study, <6% of Americans are level 3 (highest) while half have only basic skills and 20% can't use computers. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926...

wereHamster 5y ago
Share of adults proficient at problem-solving in technology-rich environments: https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24 https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24 … there are other indicators that are related as well, in the https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use and https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society dimensions.
- falcolas 5y ago
  This data is disturbingly eye opening. Only ~5% of folks in the US are able to navigate through webpages and apps when doing so is required so solve a particular problem. And it's not like this is just a US problem, the highest percentage across the measured countries is a measly 10%. And the example task they used - using webpages and apps to find a job - is more and more based solely online these days. I think I need to go make another donation to our local library for their work in helping folks navigate these tasks...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - vba616 5y ago
    Many places that hire employees that don't have their own computers have like a little computer lab. I remember Target being like that around 2005, and a hospital in 2017 or so. The employees, or volunteers, help people that have trouble. I remember someone being very angry that she was required to provide proof of graduating high school or something when it was like 30 years ago and the school didn't even exist anymore.

voakbasda 5y ago

At a former job, I worked on the low-level OS support for GE devices. With that perspective, I would never buy one of their products that contains any software, and I actively warn others not to buy them. I worked on medical devices. Imagine how much worse the software will be on devices that do not have that level of regulatory scrutiny.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
loonster 5y ago
I have a GE Profile Induction Range. I both love and hate it. Idiots that designed it used capacitive touch sensors to adjust everything, including temperature of the burners. Think of using your phone with wet hands. Now imagine pan frying something on the range and it splatters adjusting the temperature to max. Need to have presence of mind to either dry the sensor and turn off, or remove pan from range so it auto turns off. Many manufacturers are doing the same thing and not just GE. Someone is going to have their house burn down because of this design decision.
- bombcar 5y ago
  The “store wow factor” is getting out of control. Devices that look great on the showroom floor but completely impractical in use. Commercial market products sometimes avoid this but commercial ovens usually aren’t insulated at all.
- vosper 5y ago
  I think that’s actually common for induction cooktops of many brands. I believe the reason is so to keep the surface a single flat sheet of glass. They’re incredibly easy to clean compared to any other kind of cooktop. But I agree, not so great to use. On my last one if any water spilled on the capacitive area (eg because of boil over) it would “panic” and completely switch off. I still love induction and I would rather have it with capacitive buttons than any other kind of cooktop, and I have a high-end gas one.

londons_explore 5y ago

Usually this is because the product was rushed out of the circuit board factory in China months ago with very barebones firmware. At the time this firmware was made, they probably hadn't even built the convection roast mode. It needs WiFi to update the firmware to one which hopefully does perform as promised. After that you can probably disconnect the WiFi again.

neoglow 5y ago
I find it hard to call this a good argument for why this is. If an appliance does not work out of the box, it is not finished and not ready to ship to customers. The game industry does this, which is crap, but appliances are people use to cook their meals and should not be unfinished. If you are right, it should be illegal.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  In a world of investors demanding large percentage returns on their investments, investing money in a programmer and then not being able to sell a product to the public for a year isn't financially viable. The time between doing the work and getting paid must be minimized to get decent returns. That's why they develop the firmware while the hardware is on the boat. With games and games consoles it's really noticeable - there is no games console you can buy and use without a day-1 update to make it functional.
- avar 5y ago
  > The game industry does this, which is crap No, it's fantastic. If they did what you think you want you'd get the same games perhaps a year later. So because they're doing it you can get what you'd have gotten anyway and more, because if you just buy games after they've been out for a while you'll likely get a large discount. And people who are big fans of the franchise can get the game earlier if they want, and essentially pay for being beta testers. It's a win-win.

mberning 5y ago

This is why licensing your brand is such a double edged sword. GE has had nothing to do with engineering appliances for many years, yet you can still take the reputational hit when things like this come to light.

paxys 5y ago

The right time to complain about this would have been before you bought the oven. Companies are only going to stop these practices if shoppers vote with their wallets.

oh_sigh 5y ago

So if you click the "dismiss" button that is clearly labeled on the message, you still can't use the oven?

capcor 5y ago
bombcar 5y ago
You can’t use the “enhanced features” one of which apparently is convection.

TheBill 5y ago

Oh man, this reminds me of a story - GE Profile oven in a ski condo, last day or second to last day we were there. Broke in a way that you couldn't open the door - and we couldn't get the bacon out. Wound up reading the repair manual and a forum while the GF cooked eggs, trying to figure it out. The Solenoid that is used to lock the door when it goes through a clean cycle has to be powered on 100% of the time, and keeps its spring compressed. Power turns off to lock it. If the insulator/bushing for it breaks, it will jam open & lock the door. Family will never buy GE appliances after this happened. Mom just bought a new Kitchenaid that's got exactly 0 smart features.

R0b0t1 5y ago
That's hilarious. It was an engineer trying to be fake safe. Losing control over your device is going to be less safe than just letting the user open the door during a clean cycle if the power drops.
bombcar 5y ago
The worst part of this stuff is you never find out about it until long after the purchase is over. Unless you happen to know a brand that’s good (say Speed Queen for now) you are stuck trying to guess what issues may occur someday.
- bob1029 5y ago
  > Speed Queen The only vendor who still sells a washer without lid lock... I'm looking at getting their TC5 to replace this piece of shit maytag that doesnt fill up properly.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    I have to admire the absolute ingeniousness to make it only on the high end one heh. I suspect you could just buy the parts - they’re all very similar internally even sharing parts with the commercial models.
tragomaskhalos 5y ago

RansomStark 5y ago

Every time I see a story like this I'm reminded how close we are to unauthorized bread [0] and it saddens me each time. Humanity was given the greatest communication tool we could imagine and we use it to spy on people and steal their data, so companies can sell more shit. What a waste. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-bread https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-br... On a side note, I'm convinced Doctorow is the greatest cyberpunk writer there is, but I'm also sure the reason for this is because earlier writers had to imagine a dystopian future. Doctorow, like the rest of us, is living that future (which is much more boring that fiction made out) and he's simply documenting what he sees.

notreallyserio 5y ago
There's also the classic verification can: https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF . Not exactly the same thing but tangentially related.
calumetregion 5y ago
Agree, but this assumes humans would ever had used it for anything else.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
Every time I read about the latest smart-appliance fad, the Amish look a little bit more prudent, and I get one day closer to buying something good and low-tech from Lehman's or the like https://www.lehmans.com/ https://www.lehmans.com/

amelius 5y ago

People should massively buy this oven and return it. Because that's what this company deserves for being so user-hostile.

criddell 5y ago
Inventory of appliances is down quite a bit right now. It might not be possible to massively buy the oven.

shreddit 5y ago

I’m starting to think people buy this stuff on purpose to get attention on the internet by complaining about it. Why on earth would i buy an oven with Wi-Fi and NOT think the manufacturer would enforce the use of it…

rootusrootus 5y ago
I think it is a legitimate complaint, even if they did post a disclaimer in the ad that said you had to connect to WiFi for full features. The market is having a tough time adjusting to this tactic, which seems to work primarily by preying on consumers that mostly do not know better. It's how we ended up with all good quality large televisions being Smart TVs, with no viable alternative. So people should complain, publicly, loudly, and demonstrate that a market exists for dumb devices.
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
This isn't at all a common expectation. I own five Wi-Fi enabled devices, and only one (the Chromecast) makes any attempt to enforce the use of it.
- dtgriscom 5y ago
  Hypothetically, what would you like do with a Chromecast without access to a network?
  - vetinari 5y ago
    Theoretically, Google Nest Mini (not Chromecast, I know, but close) could be used as a bluetooth speaker. But I never managed to do it. Trying to enable pairing always ends up with an error message.
    - bobsmooth 5y ago
      You have to connect to it through the Home app to stream.

askura 5y ago

That's crazy. I wonder which company get the kickback for having these installed in newbuilds? Bet you'll find a link there.

CorrectHorseBat 5y ago

Reminds me of this news from yesterday https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-stoomoven-te-zijn-en-werkt-niet-meer-na-foute.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-... (Dutch, couldn't find an English source) AEG microwave thinks it's an steam oven after update, don't think even The Onion could come up with this.

beebeepka 5y ago
Now imagine a future where all these appliances have personalities and then this happens, rendering your oven and friend useless! Man, I have to read Only Forward once again. Lovely book
devoutsalsa 5y ago
After you grind in the kitchen on 100 hot chocolates and 50 bags of popcorn, you have enough XP to level up. The software developers just forgot to lock out that feature. Personally I’d rather morph into an air fryer.

xadhominemx 5y ago

Ok, so connect it to the wifi

teekert 5y ago

It clearly says that the WiFi gives you the better experience ;) Btw you know what is also garbage? Scrolling through a twitter thread in your browser and then halfway through reading some sentence the whole screen goes black and it tells you to log in. I literally had all I wanted to read on the screen already but I couldn’t finish it.

tgv 5y ago
Use nitter.net.
gdulli 5y ago
It doesn't do that in private mode.

noAnswer 5y ago

I recently had to install a new Netgear switch (GS724TPP) for a customer. It won't let you use "advanced" features like VLAN without registering it to a Cloud account first! (It was on a construction side with unfinished internet.) I told my boss to never buy Netgear again.

vetinari 5y ago
I had a similar issue with Ubiquiti Unifi gear... trying to set it up on a site about a week before Internet connection would be available. The funny thing it was before it started to require cloud accounts (UDM et al). Just without being able to connect to the Internet, I could not complete the setup.

teekert 5y ago

It is at least nice to hear that the touchscreen experience was nice. Recently I had 2 experiences where I longed back to older tech. A Siemens oven/microwave in a rented cabin that had an awful menu filled with options and took 4 steps to get to the function I needed, whereas my 10 y/o AEG I hit the function I want (key with icon immediately accessible) and then start. And, my own 2006 Ford has a BT module (aftermarket) which just starts when I start the car and it connects and works. My parents Dacia has a fancy system that takes 2 min to boot and then I need to try a couple of times and then it connects, really annoying, yeah it has a large touchscreen but I much prefer my ancient 1 line LCD display. Now that I think about it, my oven has a one line old glowy numbers display. Maybe the limited displays force much more thought into how to make funtions accessible.

lsllc 5y ago

Haven't bought appliances in a long time but we recently replaced most of the appliances with LG Thinq units, incl. a Wifi enabled refrigerator, oven, washer and dryer. I have to say the Wifi enabled refrigerator is next to useless, I guess it tells me the temp and when the water filter needs changing ... not things I need. (and it only works on 2Ghz, so you need a separate 2Ghz only WLAN for it). The Wifi oven is actually useful, because when you have that "did I leave the oven on" moment after you have left the house, not only can you check, but you can remotely turn it off. It's also useful for starting the oven preheat as you're buying that frozen pizza at the store so you can come home to a hot oven ready to go. The periodic "your oven needs cleaning" notifications are annoying though. By far the Wifi enabled washer and dryer are the most useful! You get a notification when the wash/dry is done! and the washer will keep reminding you until you open the door on the unit so you don't end up forgetting and then having to rewash to avoid smelly clothes. (weirdly, only the fridge had the 2Ghz only problem, must use different hardware)

dtgriscom 5y ago
> 2Ghz Do you mean 2.4GHz?
- lsllc 5y ago
  Yeah!
novok 5y ago
Woo, your house now has a internet accessible & hackable remote fire starter where someone could leave your oven / stove on at max for hours until something ignites and burns the entire house down!
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  Yeah, that would be a hard no for me, personally. I wouldn't let them hook my generator up to the internet either.
- x3n0ph3n3 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

I can see a service come into existence where you can have 'smart' appliances defanged.

FourthProtocol 5y ago

In my social and work bubble nobody I've spoken to about it watches live TV anymore, myself included. News is consumed online (primarily Economist, Guardian and BBC, but not exclusively). TV does XBox, DVDs (I've amassed over 1000¹) and streaming (via Xbox and an old laptop). So of course any dumb disaplay with an HDMI connector will do the job. Sports events often also stream live, or can be watched in the pub. So beyond that, does live TV offer that much value that it merits a Smart TV? ¹ Of course most won't have such a library - but it offers nothing more or less than streaming does.

damontal 5y ago
Sports, if you care about sports.
- novok 5y ago
  Even live sports is special app that fits in well with the streaming lifestyle.
drdec 5y ago
In my experience, people want smart TVs for streaming, not for watching live TV. The value proposition for the non technical person is that all the streaming apps are available right in the TV and easy to use.
sixstringtheory 5y ago
> [A DVD] offers nothing more or less than streaming does No way! DVDs have all sorts of extra features you can’t get via streaming services, like director commentaries or even feature documentaries. Plus alternate language tracks. Keep that library, sounds valuable!

sdoering 5y ago

I recently wanted to buy a Bluetooth speaker for my mom. From experience I was looking for a small Bose speaker. It wasn't available. They recommended a Sonos alternative. I looked at the packaging. The price was only slightly below the Bose "equivalent". At home I wanted to quickly connect the speaker to the computer and was dumbstruck with the requirement to connect it to her wireless and install the App to configure it. Also I had to agree to Sonos transmitting every app I used to stream music, every song I heard, inclusive of the account names. This being sold without disclaimer or information that the device is unusable without such a data striptease, app install and wlan was quite irritating. I put the device back into the packaging, brought it back to the store and ordered a Bose for her.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Bose does something similar for their headphones unfortunately. Only some basic functionality is available without the app.
- vageli 5y ago
  > Only some basic functionality is available without the app. What functionality is lacking without the app?
  - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
    You can't adjust the noise cancellation.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    Adjusting the equalizer, fine adjustments to noise cancelling, disconnecting devices that it thinks are playing sound.
    - Handytinge 5y ago
      How would you manage these functions normally without an app? I'd think an equalizers interface is complex enough that most headphones would simply not be able to provide adjustment options.

CoastalCoder 5y ago

I'm curious about this from a U.S. legal perspective. Suppose I advertise (and sell) a product without clearly informing the buyer of additional requirements they'll face in order to use the product as advertised. E.g., access functionality via WiFi, accept an EULA, etc. At what point does that become fraud or illegally deceptive advertising? I'm assuming that there's some allowance for assuming common knowledge, e.g. that an electric oven will require a 220-240V connection. But if there's a legal line to be crossed, where is it?

gambiting 5y ago
He literally shows a screenshot in the article with the line highlighted telling you that you have to connect an app to unlock some features. You'd have a hard time arguing that's deceptive advertising.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Sorry, I only noticed that after writing my comment. So maybe my question applies to other situations but not this particular one.

firefoxd 5y ago

That reminds me of my Westinghouse Radio hub[1]. They abandoned the product and the domain expired. So naturally, it couldn't play the radio. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759

malkia 5y ago

My Toyota Venza's rear camera (2009) won't work, if the Map DVD can't be loaded :(in my case it was just the DVD reader got busted or something), but such critical part as rear camera should not fail the Map Navigator it's not working (at least nowadays there are alternatives you can swap easily - e.g. your phone, not so easy with rear camera).

chasedehan 5y ago

All this “smart” stuff kills me for basic appliances that no Wi-Fi should ever be needed for. Example: I am in the process of building a custom home with the ability to purchase whatever we want - when looking at ovens I told the salesperson that I didn’t want anything that has to connect to the internet and the response was that I would need to pick out something lower end because everything “high end” has the connectivity now. Even dishwashers.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
Check out Blue Star.
zionic 5y ago
I went through something similar. I just made sure all the high end appliances I got didn’t need WiFi to work. Having the capability (but not connected) hasn’t limited anything at all so far.

zxcvbn4038 5y ago

The problem with this trend is what happens in 2-3 years when the manufacturer decides they don’t want to update the app anymore? I have ovens that are twenty years old, my washing machine was made in the 1950s (and has so much steel I think it can be used as a tank in times of war). I’m pretty sure appliances today aren’t built to the same standard but seems foolish to have to throw everything away every few years because the app isn’t being updated for the latest iOS or it’s not compatible with wifi7 or similar. At least with my AC I can fall back to the remote or front panel. In this case you don’t even get that option.

pickledcods 5y ago

Because it is internet connected, and possibly only works when internet connected, you are dependent on the manufacturer after purchase. Does it have a built in web-server that can device-independent access all functions through a local net. If not then it sounds to me like after-sales. What are the after-sales terms? Is there a contract? Are you going to pay for an after-sales subscription? If not, how is their business model to finance it? How is your privacy or personal identification involved? How long will the product be supported (Planned obsolescence)? Can you block automatic-updates? Can you downgrade the firmware? What are your legal options if they close down the service before product end-of-lifetime? Or liability if the product gets hacked and destroys/damages property? Will refusing after-sales influence warranty? What are their terms & conditions to ban your access to the device? What are the non-automated options in case of disputes? What are the options/rights when escalating complaints? Sounds like these questions should be answered on the box before you (or the person installing it) should open it. Or in the first section of EULA in layman's terms.

nop_slide 5y ago

Ha! I have a fun one. We recently had our first child. I finally opened a thermometer we were gifted from a shower and low and behold, the thing can not take a temperature without downloading an app. It has a digital screen and everything, but you when you first power it on you are greeted with it displaying "APP" and you HAVE to download the app & set it up before it will work. When we finally took the temperature, the damn thing still didn't even display it on the screen, it sent the reading to the app. I don't even know what the point of the screen is. This thing also wants to "anonymously" share your temp readings and location with the community stating it will help and let you know if there are diseases spreading locally. It went against my dignity to download it and use the thing, but it was 10:00PM and checking our baby's temp at the time was more important. Still it was the most asinine smart-device experience I have had to date.

smarnach 5y ago
The screen exists so the thermometer can tell you to download the app.
- esperent 5y ago
  The app exists so that your data, and your baby's, can be harvested and sold.
  - lmkg 5y ago
    PROTIP: This data is not protected by HIPAA because your insurance wasn't involved.
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      PROTIP: Do not get your data governance advice from HN comments
      - tzs 5y ago
        In this case though he was probably right about the data not being covered by HIPAA, but the reason he gave was incomplete. Here's a pretty good explanation of HIPAA in the context of health apps [1]. [1] https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr-health-app-developer-scenarios-2-2016.pdf https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr-health-app-devel...

donohoe 5y ago

I know a fair number of people who have internet connected fridges, thermostats, cars, air quality monitors, and so on. Most of them don't work in tech. Those that do have very few and seek out 'dumb' versions. I count myself in that group. Next time I need a new TV it will not be a smart one. My current on has Roku but not its showing ads... so now I use TV exclusively through my Apple TV. Sigh

mhh__ 5y ago

I quite like the idea of being able to remote control the oven and maybe have a camera view inside but these smart appliances always do something batshit that scares me off

phs318u 5y ago

One possible solution is to buy the cheapest, low-power wifi hub you can find. Plug it in and DO NOT connect it to the internet. Then make this wifi network the target for all your "I wish they were dumb" appliances. EDIT: assuming that the appliance only insists on wifi connection and not internet connection.

_nickwhite 5y ago
You could also do this with an iPhone hotspot- although the connected device _will_ have Internet access. Not sure if that's a problem for an oven or not.
- zionic 5y ago
  This is a great solution to get past setup. Presumably most devices would continue to function once you kick them off hotspot.

markus_zhang 5y ago

I wonder how difficult it is to de-smart these devices? Like hacking into the software and only allow the basic functionalities.

ReflectedImage 5y ago

Clearly, they had to ship the oven before they could write the convection roasting software. With a quick 240 GB download your oven will be fully working until patch v1.1 next month.

userbinator 5y ago

Buy used, pre-"smart" appliances that are 100% under your control. There's a huge aftermarket of parts availability and repair information for them, and they tend to be reliable and simple to fix if they do break. Every time I read about something like this I'm happy that all of mine are roughly from mid-century and dumb. Countless dumb appliances are scrapped all the time; it's not hard to find one for cheap or even free, and that only needs a minor repair and cleaning to continue working for many more decades.

qiskit 5y ago

Why does an oven need this? Is the idea that everything will be connect to the internet and need the manufacturers permission to use? Will I need American Standard's permission to flush my toilet one day? Where does this end? After reading this, I'd be pissed off: "Smart ovens require a WiFi connection for the best experience." After reading this, I'd be absolutely besides myself: "Please connect to unlock the latest features and receive important software updates." Of course all of this is just to collect data on you. Sooner or later, all these devices will have cameras and voice recorders to better "serve"/observe you with voice/face recognition/etc. "Smart" devices, "smart" homes, "smart" cars, etc. When will we get "smart" clothes. That'll be nice. Your zipper won't work unless it has a wifi connection to Gap.

x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
After a year of having to continuously adjust my oven's block because it would drift 10 minutes faster over the course of a month, I finally decided to connect it to the wifi with the remote hope that it would connect to an NTP server. Looks like I got lucky, and it's finally keeping proper time. I _did_ go the extra step of completely blocking all other network connectivity to and from that thing.

LoveMortuus 5y ago

I really dislike this trend... My parents own a robotic vacuume cleaner, which also requires you to login to companies servers before you can unlock all the functionality. I'm of the opinion that a device should be as independent as possible. Maybe to achieve special functionality you can implement a remote but that too should work as independently as possible. Anything more then this is just a sin, anti-consumer behaviour. There is absolutely no reason why must login to a server that's on the other side of the planet just to tell the vacuume cleaner to clean only a part of my room... The problem is that the majority of people don't care and they'll just buy a new device/robot cleaner once the company turns their servers off, because let's face it we're still very fast away from a law that would force companies to open source their stuff before they shutdown everything for good. This kind of behaviour is just making the e-waste problem worse...

Xcelerate 5y ago

What’s funny is my oven claims it’s owned by someone else and says I have to contact Whirlpool with proof of ID to change it. Not sure how I feel about my oven gaslighting me.

marcodiego 5y ago

The day will come when products with stickers saying things like "non-connected" or "non-smart" will sell more.

jayd16 5y ago

Would be funny if the convection oven code slipped to a day 1 patch instead of this being nefarious user metric scraping. I'm not sure which explanation is worse.

tony-allan 5y ago

I’m sure it been said but what happens when the app is no longer supported?

exodust 5y ago

My Bosch dishwasher does it the right way. The app is optional, and WiFi can be disabled via the front panel settings so it doesn't scan for networks every time it powers on. Well done Bosch. Not so well done is my "Beddi" alarm clock by Witti Design. Every time the snooze button is pressed, bluetooth is activated in an attempt to connect with the app. This happens even when bluetooth was deactivated before the alarm goes off, and even when only the internal buzzer is used as the alarm choice, with no smart features used. I asked them about this and they replied saying most people want the smart features of the clock, so they just decided to make bluetooth scanning non-optional. Interesting how they "know" what most people want. Imagine being usage-tracked from literally the moment you wake up and perform your first action for the day - hitting the snooze button. I understand some people choose to have the clock connect with the app on pressing snooze, but the option to disable that and have it remain disabled should be available.

HstryrsrBttn 5y ago

aww_dang 5y ago

I can see where this could spur a market for replacement firmware or entire electronics packages for home appliances. Appliance repair technicians would be paid to install or "upgrade".

keiferski 5y ago

The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please." He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. "I'll pay you tomorrow," he told the door. Again it remained locked tight. "What I pay you," he informed it, "is in the nature of a gratuity; I don't have to pay you." "I think otherwise," the door said. "Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt." ...he found the contract. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. "You discover I'm right," the door said. It sounded smug. - Ubik, Phillip K. Dick (1969)

jrcplus 5y ago

What's the need for this on GE's side? What was the product manager thinking? Is the idea to collect and monetize usage data, or something else? There must be a reason (?).

IYasha 5y ago

Games won't install or run without connecting to blocked or decommissioned servers, printers won't accept "foreign" cartridges, scanners won't scan, DVDs/BDs won't play without auth, TPM, DRM... What a time to be alive! (

neycoda 5y ago

See, but, this is acceptable because you just buy another oven that doesn't require WiFi. Easy right? Until all manufacturers require it.

dariosalvi78 5y ago

Internet of Shit classic!

emiliosic 5y ago

Sometimes in 2016 we were working on a kitchen renovation and decided on a built-in double oven, and went with GE's offering. I seriously considered $ 300 more for the top-shelf offering that included convection on both ovens and Wi-Fi connectivity. Back then Haier just bought GE Appliances and that made me waver. Also I knew their fridges with Wi-Fi were running Windows CE, what I didn't think it would have a long future, and integration through a now chinese/american company didn't quite appeal me. In the end bought the version without Wi-Fi and only one convection oven, which has proven more than enough. The advantage of Wi-Fi we though would be to be able to set the oven to cook the food left on it by the time we arrived from work. But then again food had to be left at room temperature most of the day, so we figured it wouldn't be something we would use too often. Now after two years of working from home, this became more irrelevant. Now my house is as automated as I can possibly make it, but running local mesh networks (Z-Wave and Zigbee), and the few Wi-Fi devices are HomeKit enabled, which means it should not depend on 3rd party cloud offerings for standard functionality, and has been mostly limited to decorative lighting developed in North American or European companies.

sccuca 5y ago

Paying $3800 for an oven is the first mistake. I build high end custom kitchens and have never had a client pay that much for an oven/stove unless it's a commercial type (Viking etc.). Some people have to much money and not enough brains.

pcvarmint 5y ago

You will own nothing, and be happy.