33 ms·

Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills

593 points by vishvananda 5y ago

waffle_maniac 5y ago
I have an ebook reader mount I attach to the rafters. If I want to watch TV I set my laptop on some storage containers far back from the treadmill and put in my airpods. In both cases I'm looking straight ahead. Looking down at the NordicTrack screen doesn't seem ergonomic or comfortable. I don't get this article. Edit: From 2 points to 0. And probably going to go negative LOL.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  I don't think the article was about ergonomics or comfort, or about how to watch TV or read a book while on the treadmill. It was about buying a product that does certain things, and then having the company that made it change its functionality without your consent. The question is, should you or should you not have control of the products you buy?
  - waffle_maniac 5y ago
    Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading a book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing with that sentiment. I've found even a slight curve of my neck creates a lot of discomfort especially when running or walking.
    - danShumway 5y ago
      > Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading a book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing with that sentiment. Right, but that's not really the point of the article. It's not positing a debate over whether or not people exist who would be uncomfortable curving their neck while running or walking. The article doesn't really care about that debate. It's asking whether or not people should have control of the products they buy. Imagine there's an article about a blender that stops working without manufacturer-approved ingredients, and someone says, "well I hate all of the recipes that people are making that aren't approved and I think they taste gross, so I don't understand what this article is about." In that scenario, we understand that the blender article is about consumer rights, not recipe tips, and whether or not someone personally likes what people are doing with their products isn't really important to that conversation. The treadmill article is about consumer rights, not ergonomics.
      - waffle_maniac 5y ago
        Asides are allowed on HN as far as I know.
    - cecilpl2 5y ago
      > I've found even a slight curve of my neck creates a lot of discomfort especially when running or walking. Just because you personally had this experience doesn't mean that everyone does.
      - waffle_maniac 5y ago
        Certainly. And those people are free to chime in as well. But people put up with a lot of bad shit to experience something. I know I have.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  You're both right. It's outrageous that companies are allowed to get away with nerfing products you've already paid for by pulling new restrictions and limitations out of thin air... and it's also bad form to look down at an LCD panel on a treadmill while using it. 100% guarantee of a painful side stitch, at least for me.
300bps 5y ago
https://archive.is/J2BM8 https://archive.is/J2BM8
dhimes 5y ago
If Nordic is being honest that the issue is safety- preventing users from diddling with their software and accidentally making it unsafe, then they can simply install a browser so the users can view what they wish online.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  They can still make updates for safety obtain consent from the device owner before being installed. I should be able to opt out of measures for my own safety.
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  From Nordic's POV, this is a safety issue, it affects the safety of their bottom line. Adding a browser would also compromise safety, again not the safety of the user but the safety of their bottom line.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    Hilarious take
  - abeppu 5y ago
    But the first person interviewed was already a subscriber. They bought the hardware. They were paying for the content. He was making a pretty healthy contribution to their bottom line. Now that customer is alienated to the point of being interviewed for an article. I'm guessing they wouldn't recommend it to a friend or family. Taking away stuff from paying customers seems like a path towards not having recurring customers. If it was just about the money, they should have e.g. have pop-up ads cover the screen only for non-subscribers, such that people aren't inclined to buy the device, not subscribe to the ifit content, and watch youtube instructors or whatever.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    I wish more people were open to this notion of safety than the one that companies try to fool their customers into believing is for their own good.
- 5y ago
bmcniel 5y ago
Classically the feature was taken away to make you safer :) > The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,
- whoomp12342 5y ago
  yep, thats why they let you watch netflix on tredmills at the gym!
_fat_santa 5y ago
I really hate how we are moving more and more towards "managed experiences" in products. Used to, you would buy a product and use it how you see fit. But these days it seems that's not what the company wants you to do. You buy the product and enjoy a "managed" experience from the company. We see it everywhere with printers, coffee makers, phones, laptops, treadmills and even cars now. Everyone knows why this is being done, simply making money on a $99 coffeemaker is not good enough anymore, we have to make that $99 plus we have to make money in perpetuity because the customer now has to subscribe to our "managed experience". Now I understand this on some level with cheaper stuff like printers, that printer doesn't cost $20, it costs that because the company assumes you will buy the pods from them. But with a treadmill that goes for thousands it's a completely different ball game. Were going to get to the point where one day you will hop in your car and start driving into the countryside. At a certain point your car will just shut off because "Ford has decided that this route in unsafe for your vehicle, for the best experience, please drive back to the city, on your way back, consider enabling cup holders for an improved coffee drinking experience". The glimmer of hope on the horizon are companies like Framework and Pinephone. These companies realize that consumers are not happy with this shit and market themselves as the antithesis of these practices. I really hope these types of companies take off in the future.
- waffle_maniac 5y ago
  I bought a replacement $400 Canon printer recently. Same model, price is at least double what it was several years ago. The reason to buy the more expensive model is because there are readily available cheap third-party cartridges. A lot of the new cheaper models don't have that.
  - fendy3002 5y ago
    What I've read people write online is to ditch inkjets altogether and go with laser printer or use megatank printers. Don't know how better they are though.
    - asdff 5y ago
gnabgib 5y ago
This is a couple of months old now, posted a few times.. not much discussion: [0] 8pts/1 comment [1] 15pts/1 comment [2] 5pts/0 comments [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288525 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29292826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29292826 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29296501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29296501
- dmix 5y ago
  Currently ranked #2 on HN, it happens.
gorjusborg 5y ago
This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent. My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.
- amelius 5y ago
  > If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore justified.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
  - lupire 5y ago
    Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
    - 5y ago
axiosgunnar 5y ago
Just put a screen on a stand infront of your treadmill?
- jasonlotito 5y ago
  - asdff 5y ago
    Except unlike rsync vs. dropbox, using an ipad laid on top of the treadmill to watch netflix is probably a lot more intuitive than whatever garbage laggy smart-tv tier gui nordictrack saddles on their users.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    Sorry but how is that even comparable? My comment is actually encouraging „hacking“ in the sense of finding unusual solutions other than the officially approved way.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      Look up the HN thread on Dropbox when it debuted. You'll understand why jason compared your comment to what people said in that thread
- treesknees 5y ago
  I don't disagree with you... in fact my Nordic ProForm treadmill includes a built in tablet mount that floats above the control panel. I used it with my iPad up until I found out this "God Mode" of side loading apps existed. But some of these exercise machines actually come with an impressive 32inch HD screen and loud speakers built-in which you can hear over the running noise. If you stop paying hundreds of dollars per year for an iFit subscription, the only thing this giant display does is show you the time and distance on a white background. And perhaps you'd say, "don't buy a machine with a built-in screen", I'd say the article points out people actually decided to purchase these models _specifically_ because help articles and other resources showed how to get into the Android interface. Sideloading apps was practically sold as a feature.
jabroni_salad 5y ago
Jeeze, I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand. This is compatible not only with any commodity treadmill, but also bike trainers, ellipticals, and making vroomvroom noises on the motorcycle when it's too icy to actually ride. I could also swap out the ipad for a laptop, non-ipad tablet, or a collection of cute succulents should I desire it. snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys have access to similar stuff.
- charles_f 5y ago
  > I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand. I actually don't get the point of getting a 4000 treadmill rather than one that's half the price and an ipad
  - Tildey 5y ago
    You save… uhhh… one power outlet? But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it “more realistic”. I think there may even be a sort of MMO/live ghost feature? Personally I think I’d rather just have music I like and work out at a pace that’s comfortable for me, but to each their own I suppose.
    - jabroni_salad 5y ago
      I'm a zwift user and I really like it. You can designate a course and it will adjust the resistance to match the elevation changes. There is live or ghost racing (with simulated drafting, which is cool) and other neat things, but the routes and structured training is what I'm there for. My tacx trainer was only $300 or so when I bought it, which was comparable to non-bluetooth trainers. That said, I already owned a fancy roadbike to use with it, which is not a negligible cost.
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes important features. To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
- frozenport 5y ago
  Thats because Sony originally marketed OtherOS but then changed the functionality after the users had purchased the machines.
- sschueller 5y ago
  Successful for whom? The layers or the consumer? Sadly in many class action cases the "victims" get effectively nothing. The way class action is done in the US it only makes sense for the law firms. I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero...
  - slantyyz 5y ago
    > I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero... I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for.
    - nybble41 5y ago
      > Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for. Your area requires lawyers to solicit class members to sign up for class actions? Lucky! Around here you'll just be grouped into the class action without asking for consent. If you're lucky they'll mail you a notice about the suit on a postcard and let you "opt out" by locating a non-editable PDF of a form buried somewhere on their site, printing it & filling it in by hand, and sending it to their headquarters by certified mail at your own expense. (If you're less lucky you get to write up your own free-form opt-out letter and hope it meets their standards.) If you don't do this then you lose the ability to sue as an individual, or to refrain from being (ab)used to bully the defendant (and enrich the lawyers) in the event that you don't agree with the basis for the suit.
CountDrewku 5y ago
I don't understand this obsession with electronic exercise devices. The peloton, that stupid thing that mounts to the wall, treadmills etc. Outside is so much better than all of those. I will 100% run in single digit temperatures with snow on the ground before I touch a treadmill. If I have to be inside it's weight lifting.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Here's why I prefer electronic exercise devices: - When my kids were younger, I was always nearby during a workout. - I can comfortably work out regardless of the season, weather, or time of day. - I can easily take a bathroom break mid-workout. - I can do much longer workouts without getting bored, because I can watch movies or play video games during the workout. (E.g., using an exercise bike + my own computer.) This works around motivational / persistence issues I used to have. - I can end a workout on short notice. Contrast to a long-distance run or bikeride, where I may be far from home when something comes up.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    You can go outside and workout just fine, you're just choosing not to. Everything about doing exercise on machines is worse for you. It's better than nothing.
- ultrasounder 5y ago
  Awesome good on you and more power to you. BUT Treadmill, Spinning bike and Rowing is for a different demographic. And You are not part of that demographic.Gabeesh?
- jasonlotito 5y ago
  Kids, safety, convenience, positive encouragement, all these things help. Not everyone is as privileged as you where you can easily just go outside and leave your home without a care in the world.
  - Gwarzo 5y ago
treesknees 5y ago
The method to get into "God Mode" is the same, except now it prompts you for a code. Someone has figured out how to calculate it and actually created a website to generate codes for you. http://getresponsecode.com http://getresponsecode.com Apparently the algorithm is very simple according to Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privileged_mode_patched/hoazr1z/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privile... >long responseCode = new Random((long) Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999); It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode enabled. It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well. We should also be looking into how to block updates to these devices.
- vuldin 5y ago
  This is great, thanks for posting this site. I am one of those who bought this awesome treadmill for several reasons, including to watch netflix and plex. It's been frustrating not being able to easily do this... I have just been listening to podcasts from my phone.
- ncann 5y ago
  Normally you can block any device's update if you figure out the server for the update content/update check, and block it out from your router and/or DNS.
  - EvanAnderson 5y ago
    The "solution" for that will be embedded 5G connections.
    - konschubert 5y ago
      That would work equally well with LTE. It's not happening because it would increase cost.
erwincoumans 5y ago
Suitable story, hacking walled gardens on HN. Reminds me of the Rigol DS1054Z 50 MHz oscilloscope, that you can trivially 'hack' into the more expensive DS1074Z 75 MHz or DS11074Z 100 MHz scope. Rigol hasn't disabled this hack, even though they can easily do it. They likely loose money if they do so, since customers move to other scopes. Also, some Tesla updates make the experience worse instead of better (V11 update is terrible, inconsistent UI and much more menu diving). I should have disabled auto-updates, and read the forums before doing the update next time.
- quux 5y ago
  I think Rigol gave in to the hackers? Last year I bought a DS1054Z from amazon and it came with all the options permanently enabled.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Your aside reminds me of the PSP hacking days. Whenever there was an update, you'd have to hold it and check forums to see if it patched your root exploit.
- rlpb 5y ago
  This is the first I've heard of it - but is this perhaps a straightforward avenue for conventional price discrimination? Businesses that want the 100 MHz may well just pay for it because they don't want the hassle the hack might lead to. And the people who'd use the hack probably wouldn't have paid for the more expensive one anyway. So Rigol might be extracting maximum value thanks to the hack, rather than despite it.
- tzs 5y ago
  The system for key validation to enable the various features on that scope [1] is actually, if I recall correctly, a well designed system using sound, strong cryptography except they used short enough keys that you can easily brute force it. That's what they keygen programs for it do. It is almost inconceivable that they would know enough to use good cryptography but not know that they needed long keys, so a lot of people believe they intended for it to be easy to hack. One theory I've heard that makes sense is that this is for price discrimination. Your hobbyist user, buying a scope to figure out what is going wrong when they try to talk to their humidity sensor with their Arduino, is not going to pay an extra couple hundred dollars to get the protocol decoding add-on. Paying $400 for the basic scope is already near their limit. So let them have all the features--it makes the Rigol scope more attractive to those users without really costing Rigol anything. So why not just include all the features without requiring keys to enable them? Because people using the scope for business will pay more for them. That's because if they use a keygen program to enable them and use the scope to design or test some product, and later something goes wrong with that product and someone gets hurt and they find themselves being sued, they don't want to have to deal with how a plaintiff's attorney would try to spin that in front of jury. Sure, it would probably not be hard for the defense to respond and explain that the scope behaves exactly the same regardless of whether the key was purchased from Rigol or came from a third party keygen program, so you might think no harm would be done by plaintiff bringing this up. However, civil trials have time limits on how much total time each side gets to present their case and to rebut the other side's case. If defense has to take time to educate the jury on the whole Rigol key system and how keygen programs are safe, that's time they don't have for other things. I've seen that kind of thing happen. I was a witness for a plaintiff in a suit. Early on, defense was able to find something totally minor but that looked bad if you didn't know the details of state tax and corporations bureaucracy [2]. It took them 2 minutes to use that to make us look dishonest. It took much longer the next day to explain all the details to counter that. For the rest of the trial, we were short on time and had to drop some things. Later, when I was on the stand defense asked some questions about a particular piece of software the plaintiffs developed. They asked detailed technical questions and I answered them. Then they said "play the video of tzs's deposition from <date several months earlier>". On that video I was asked the same questions I had just been asked in court, and answered that I had not worked on that software and didn't know the answers. Defense then said "no further questions" and walked away. I expected our lawyers to then ask about this, so we could explain why I apparently was either lying my ass off in the deposition or lying my ass off a few moments ago, but they didn't. They later told me they were short on time, and decided that having the jury think I was a liar was less of a problem than dropping the other stuff they would have to drop to deal with that. So why the apparent discrepancy between my deposition and my later in court testimony? The deposition was 100% correct. I had not worked and that software and didn't have any deep technical knowledge of how it worked. Later however, I was designated as the person on our side who would be answering all technical questions about our software. This would cover all our software that might come up in the case, not just what I had worked on. So I spent a considerable amount of time after that deposition studying the source for such software, and by the time of the trial I was able to answer deep technical questions concerning it. (Which defendant was fully aware of, by the way, since between my first deposition and the trial, there was a deposition where I appeared in the role of expert on all our software). [1] Besides doubling the bandwidth, there are keys for expanding the amount of memory, adding advanced trigger options, adding protocol decoding for various useful protocols like I2C and RS-232, and I think some other features that I'm forgetting. [2] Briefly, when you paid your taxes you got a receipt from the state revenue department. You were supposed to file a copy of that receipt with the state corporations office. Someone failed to do that. If one then queried the corporations office we were listed as having not paid our taxes.
DevKoala 5y ago
This hacks is impressive, but very pointless. A regular treadmill plus an iPad is a much better combo and it goes for $1k less total.
- throwaway81523 5y ago
  I'd be interested in knowing where to order a 32 inch ipad for $1000.
  - reificator 5y ago
    They didn't say it was identical, they said it was a much better combo.
  - DevKoala 5y ago
    Fine, attach a TV to it for $200. The whole thing just seems silly.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    You can buy them for much less than that. They're known as 'televisions' and you can get even bigger ones than 32 inch for under $500!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mcherm 5y ago
My solution to this problem would be legislation that allows customers, if they wish to, to return devices for a full refund if the company that manufactures the device makes a change that removes functionality that the customer valued. This doesn't prevent the company from making the change, it simply makes sure that they incur a cost for doing so, and it makes whole any customer affected by the change.
- klabb3 5y ago
  Wow this is by far the best solution to this pervasive problem I've seen, no irony. This way, you don't need legislators go into technical and domain specific detail. Producers are incentivized to provide optional updates or "downgrades" if necessary, and if they shut their cloud services off and brick the device, people have a right to return it. Additionally, it can't be abused by customers if the company acts well. However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e. That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it". Any ideas?
  - rchaud 5y ago
    You won't need legislators, but you will have to make your case to whoever is manning the returns department at Walmart.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      You misinterpreted. Of course you still need a judiciary process. But you’ll won it because the law would clearly be on your side. Still hard to prove your case, but no company will take the risk because they could have thousands of customers ready to prove they have been abused.
- tzs 5y ago
  What counts as functionality? For example suppose the UI of a treadmill has a "Last 5 workout programs used" section on the front page of the UI to allow the user to select with one tap a recent program. An update replace that with a "recents..." button which takes you to a new screen that shows the last 10 programs used. Is no longer providing one tap access to the most recent 5 programs removal of functionality? Or is the feature just that it has a way to recall recent programs so as long as there still is a way to do that, even if more convoluted, it does not count as a feature removal? How about functionality that was not in the device when it was purchased but was added by an update? If the law does apply to that, then in effect the manufacturer will be locked into only ever adding functionality. After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess. If the law only applies to features present at purchase, then manufactures will just ship bare bones devices that only implement what is necessary to make the claims on the box and in their advertisements not false. Then the first update will add a ton of stuff to make it more than bare bones.
cwal37 5y ago
This is related to why I bought a concept2 erg recently. Hurt my achilles and needed to switch to a low impact exercise, which I prefer to be able to do at home rather than going somewhere else (so swimming is out). Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on the very simple monitor it came with. [0] https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm5-black https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm...
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  Concept 2 is indeed the cheaper and better option for an erg. Aside from being very sturdy machines at reasonable prices compared to your nordictracs and pelotons, old models are supported essentially forever with spare parts and detailed installation/fix instructions. I dont know of any rowers who don't swear by them.
  - qqqwerty 5y ago
    I picked up a model A for just this reason. $120 on craigslist for a 35 year old machine. It is super solid, but will need to replace a few minor parts soon. And from what I can tell they are all available for purchase from concept2, which is awesome.
    - ordersofmag 5y ago
      Mmmmm, a Model A. I miss those days. No electronics whatsoever. Just that mechanical odometer ticking over ever so slowly.
- prettyStandard 5y ago
  I own a concept 2. I have 4.6 million meters on it. I watch programming videos in Spanish while I workout(To learn Spanish). This is my "Smart Workout Machine". https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939 https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939
dschuetz 5y ago
Remember Sony removing OtherOS/Linux from the PS3? Yeah? No? That's the reason I don't buy Sony hardware anymore. See, the issue is decades old. But somehow people keep forgetting.
- rchaud 5y ago
  I still bought the PS3 because PSN online play was free, while Xbox Live required a subscription. I think PSN is subscription-only now though.
- OneLeggedCat 5y ago
  I'm still angry about the way they handled the CD root kits, even after being called out on it.
mikestew 5y ago
Not that NordicTrack cares about purchases from l'il ol' me in the larger scheme of things, this is precisely why we didn't buy a NordicTrack treadmill despite being tickled with our NordicTrack rowing machine: that screen is there for NordicTrack's benefit, not yours. Sure, I'm a software engineer as well as owning a soldering iron and knowing how to use it. But if I've got to unsolder/resolder wires or cut traces on my brand-new machine to get the functionality I thought I paid for, I bought the wrong machine. If I have to use a software hack that is one update away from not working anymore, I have purchased the wrong machine. I'll let others rant about not being able to use the hardware that one paid for, I'm just not going to pay for the HW in the first place. (And, honestly, how many of us on HN need another screen around the house?) It's disappointing, too, because we're quite satisfied with our NT rowing machine, which was purchased right before the "big screen" models, and we would otherwise recommend it. But now you can't buy the one with the cheap LCD display like we have and just bring your own screen, you have to get proprietary screen models now. So I don't recommend their rowing machines anymore, either. After much research, we bought a treadmill from Horizon fitness[0]. We've been nothing but happy with it, which is their top-of-the-line 7.8. It has BT for music to play over the built-in speakers, and it works fine with Zwift and even the iFit subscription that NordicTrack pushes (it just won't auto-control the treadmill speed/incline, which is a-okay by me). BT streams your data to Zwift, et. al., including speed/incline/HR. It has a built-in stand for your tablet, though anyone on HN ought to be able to rig some cheap 27" 4k monitor in there somehow (we use a wall-mount for the rowing machine that swivels for general purpose use). The spouse and I have used it with Zwift, iFit, and Apple Fitness+, though Zwift is the only one that cares about data from the BT stream. As running goes I used to be fast, but now I'm just old and still faster than most, and it does everything I need for dark, rainy PNW days. I use it for tempo and intervals on occasion as well, and the one-button presets for interval/recovery are nice so when I'm gasping for breath I just need to be able to push the recovery button. Anyway, no association whatsoever with Horizon, just a very satisfied customer. [0] https://www.horizonfitness.com https://www.horizonfitness.com
gennarro 5y ago
Exactly why I only buy dumb devices ex: https://non-smart.com https://non-smart.com type stuff
- npteljes 5y ago
  I opted for hackable ones, like the PineTime smart watch, or a previous flagship phone that has a compatible LineageOS build.
- suyula 5y ago
  That used to be me until I discovered how many smart devices have the ability to be flashed with open source firmware like Tasmota or ESPHome. Best of both worlds!
- raziel2p 5y ago
  on that website, the menu button does nothing and if I search for "tv" no relevant results come up. maybe the site isn't smart enough.
maurits 5y ago
The short and completely correct reason as to why my e-reader has never, and will never ever, be connected to wifi.
- abfan1127 5y ago
  how do you get content on it?
  - maurits 5y ago
    Kobo's used to have a memory card slot. No need to even connect it with usb.
  - Karsteski 5y ago
    For my kindle paperwhite I simply plug it into my computer like it's 2010
rchaud 5y ago
"God Mode"? What they describe is just how to access developer options on an Android device, isn't it? It doesn't provide root access or anything, just the ability to sideload apps and a few other things.
remram 5y ago
"God Mode" make it seem like such an unreasonable request. How about "Owner Mode"?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  This. It is weird to read basic administrator mode referred to as something beyond mere man's understanding, but it does feed into this narrative that an average human should not try mess with the magic box.
keyle 5y ago
I'm utterly disappointed I didn't see any footage of DOOM running on it. If those hackers didn't spend so much time trying to be healthy, they could focus their time on an actual worthy task! /s
habeebtc 5y ago
The alternative here is to buy a waterproof tablet, and a decent mount to attach it to your treadmill. https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B00BCSYZVY https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B...
friendlydog 5y ago
We need an Electronic bill of rights. 1. You must allow full root privileges for Electronic devices to the owners 2. You may not circumvent owners rights through leasing or other means. 3. You may not create barriers to device owners using their devices how they see fit.
- tremon 5y ago
  Like GPLv3's anti-Tivoization clause?
- npteljes 5y ago
  I'd also like code to become open source, at least after a while - last product sell date + X years or something.
  - makapuf 5y ago
    This can be problematic if the hardware vendor purchases software from a third party, and that software is not discontinued.
- drran 5y ago
  GPL v3
kelvin0 5y ago
I like my devices cheap, dumb and offline. Nothing else.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> and finding workarounds that allow them to bypass the update and watch whatever they want while they work out. Like buying a TV and mounting it on the wall in front of the treadmill? Do these people not have access to 2x4s? Why does your TV screen need to be integrated into your exercise equipment?
chris_wot 5y ago
Honestly, it is getting to the point where your best bet is to buy a cheaper device with minimal features, then mount a screen onto it and hook it up to a Linux box to play what you want. Cheaper and actually gives you what you want. Might force the vendor to allow for more customization, given a lot of people stop buying their premium range.
charles_f 5y ago
> NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules. I don't get why companies think this kind of blanket statements are useful, when they're immediately made null by their actions. > However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety. This is such obvious BS, when the real kicker is that after you already shelled $4k, they really really want you to rack out that sweet sweet monthly subscription money and don't want any competitors on a screen that, it turns out, they can control. Greedy manufacturers wanting to get into that monthly recurring revenue model.
anyfoo 5y ago
Following Wirecutter's suggestion, I got a ProForm 505 treadmill. Like Wirecutter said, it's cheap, a bit janky, but does the job adequately for a "non-pro" like me. When unpacking it and setting it up, there were multiple notices everywhere: On the packaging, as a separate note in the packaging, in the manual, on the treadmill itself. Those notes all said that the treadmill is "locked" and you need "online activation" to unlock it. I was getting very nervous, since I thought I bought something that does not need online activation. However I think it was also Wirecutter that mentioned that you can just press the iFit button for longer than 15 seconds--or was it 30 seconds?--and it's "unlocked". I did that once and it worked ever since, never needed to do anything online, or connect it via Bluetooth, WiFi or anything else.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
alkonaut 5y ago
That it was advertised anywhere in documentation as possible is what makes it a hostile move by the manufacturer. Had this been just some kind of open secret “hack” then buyers really should expect this. Remember: when you buy a gadget with a screen and associated “services” like video subscriptions you aren’t just buying a lump of tech. Your price is set after careful weighing of how much customers will consume the subscription services. If the add on service is provided by a third party it’s even worse: your products’ ability to deliver something other than their service is probably a breach of contract. My guess: the treadmill makers didn’t mind people watching Netflix on their gadget. Their partners on content though has given them deals on the premise that everyone who didn’t buy a subscription should have a feeling that they wasted $4k on an empty screen. So when they hear a number of users are watching Netflix, they get angry. Treadmill makers must block the god mode. The sad thing here is obviously that the idea of making a good open product without strings attached or subscriptions seems like an impossibility these days.
logicalmonster 5y ago
Is there any theory as to what NordicTrack hopes to gain out of preventing customers from using the screen as they see fit? NordicTrack already has the customers' money, so why would they really care? Are they trying to do some kind of advertising on the screen? Are just going through run of the mill security updates and there's bad communication between the customers and NordicTrack not understanding each other because of a layer of dumb bureaucracy between marketing/developers?
- fckgw 5y ago
  NordicTrack is owned by iFit which sells a workout subscription service. The screen is "intended" only for iFit content so they've locked users out of other uses.
- bobsmooth 5y ago
  So customers are forced to subscribe to their service to watch media.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Probably because they want to be the middle man for these services they provide or are going to. After all just like Apple they feel entitled to these cuts. The people who buy these gadgets are people with too much money or techbros that go out of their way to justify the control apple has over the platform or 30% apple takes. Business wise it makes sense. And of course if everything is not locked down then you can always scare people with hackers.
cwkoss 5y ago
It should be illegal to remove features from a hardware product with a software 'update' without offering all pre-existing customers to return the hardware if they affirm the removed (or newly pay-gated) feature was a factor in making their purchase. Customers currently have zero recourse, because they are paying for the hardware, but the software allows the hardware functionality to be changed or removed at whim without any financial risk to the company. Credit card chargebacks may work sometimes, but only if the purchase was recent: 'smart' hardware vendors often ruin their products more than 90 days after purchase.
- cube00 5y ago
  Does that still apply if the "feature" is not one advertised by the manufacturer? They're framing it as safety issue and jail broken devices and leaked content keys get updated all the time to close those loopholes.
- smabie 5y ago
  I feel like so many things are already illegal, do we really need more illegal stuff?
jengajengajenga 5y ago
mdoms 5y ago
Wait until runners hear about "outside".
OneLeggedCat 5y ago
> “The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,” says a spokesperson for NordicTrack lol what a straight up fucking lie.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
beloch 5y ago
"NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules. However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety. " The real reason they don't want people using other apps or watching third party videos is because anyone doing that is not spending money on iFit. Or, at least, not as much as they could be. NordicTrack likely discounted these treadmills to squeeze out competitors with the intention of making their money back by locking customers into iFit. If a few users hack their treadmills, that's not going to hurt NordicTrack's bottom line. If most users are doing it because it's as easy as tapping the screen 10 times, then there's a problem. So, NordicTrack has made it harder to gain admin access. Not impossible. Just harder. More people will go back to spending money on iFit, the determined few will roll up their sleeves, and the business model will be restored. The problem is that this business model is a bait and switch. When people pay for a treadmill they don't expect to be locked into further monthly payments to unlock its features. It's inherently dishonest, and the victim, aside from users, is the competitor who produces an honest product that's paid for entirely up front and is, hence, more expensive and less competitive.
- dbsmith83 5y ago
  I really wonder about the payoff in the continual cat and mouse game here. At some point, you are going to be paying a sizeable sum to your devs to try a lock out a relatively small amount of technically capable people who will circumvent the system rather than pay a subscription fee. I agree making a little harder once probably convinced a few people to pay up...but after that it has to be diminishing returns and eventually negative returns. I wonder what the tradeoff would be if they marketed their system was one that as open and you could do so many things with it. Like, imagine if the commercials showed how you could use your treadmill but also connect to any app you wanted, like Netflix. To me, that would be a big draw.
- vl 5y ago
  NordicTrack treadmills are quite expensive actually. Full incline model are $3000 and $4000, and there is no competition for them.
- criddell 5y ago
Zak 5y ago
If you don't have root on a software-controlled device, it isn't really yours. Unfortunately, I think we've lost a lot of ground in that fight when it comes to consumer devices. To the HN community at large: how do we start clawing it back?
coopreme 5y ago
Does anyone know the domains they use to connect/update? I’ve got one of these (different brand) but still unlocked by the 10 taps method. I’ve still never connected mine to WiFi but I like to dim the screen. I could setup DNS blocks and then connect to WiFi to verify it works for a more long term solution for folks (well, that intersection of those that run a pinhole and on a treadmill). I didn’t connect it to WiFi (even after unlocking) primarily because I worry about it being another data collection tool (WiFi, bt) and it has a camera/mic on it.
davidw 5y ago
I can hear RMS singing "Join us now and share the software".
ijidak 5y ago
On October 28, I bought the NordicTrac T-Series for $650. After installation, it had a lock screen asking me to subscribe to start using the treadmill! Can you imagine? I paid for the treadmill, and you're telling me I can't even walk on it without paying you again? So what did my $650 pay for?!? If I can't use a device's most basic function without paying an additional subscription, then can Amazon label the button "Buy Now"? What exactly did I "Buy" if it's a paperweight without an additional subscription? Nowhere did the product page say that having a subscription is a pre-req to use this device: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0193V3DJ6 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0193V3DJ6 Thankfully, the company Amazon hired to setup the treadmill found the trick to bypass that screen. But now, after hearing about this update, I'm afraid they will lock my treadmill again. I just use my treadmill to walk on it. I don't need any apps. Left to their own devices, these companies will find a way to charge us to breathe. So happy I'm not looking to any human governments to fix this nonsense.
- CrendKing 5y ago
  This review says you can bypass it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RN1OVJIW3986S/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0193V3DJ6 https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RN1OVJIW3986S/ref... > TO GET AROUND THIS SCAM, hold down the iFit logo on the treadmill for 30 seconds and your treadmill will work. Admittedly, it sucks if you need to do this every time. But it's Amazon, so return?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rurp 5y ago
  Have you considered returning it and buying a different one? There are plenty of treadmills out there without this user hostile nonsense that would make better use of your purchase money. As a total aside, I bought a treadmill last year and turned it into a walking desk as part of my WFH setup. I wasn't sure how much I would use it, but holy cow I love it!
CrendKing 5y ago
The "right-to-repair" sentiment is totally understandable, as the article says. However, on the other hand, imagine some user modified the underlying Android, which caused the treadmill to run unstoppably, which end up injuring him. He then sues the company for millions of dollars. If I were the owner of the company, I would rather losing some customers than sleeping on a ticking bomb. Their move is also understandable. I think an ideal solution could be the manufacturer officially supports accessing the "privilege mode" with some sort of "release of liability". Customer must agree to this the first time they access, forfeiting warranty and ability to sue. Much like when people decide to unlock phone bootloader and root. And to make all manufacturers willing to provide privilege mode to their products, I think either 1) the court makes clear statement of supporting this legally, or 2) having a supreme court precedence established for this, is required, otherwise some manufacturers would still fear the potential legal risk.
- SamBam 5y ago
  This sounds like concern trolling. What happens if, when you're upgrading your new right-to-repair laptop, you leave some wires sticking out of the battery and fry yourself, and then sue the laptop maker? Indeed, what happens when you fry yourself repairing the ur-right-to-repair device, the light fixture with a removable lightbulb? You can invent any scenario for any machine or device that the user can repair, but it should be fairly straightforward to add language that says "if you modify the device's behavior in such a way that it harms you, that's not our fault."
- somebodythere 5y ago
  That person would not win the lawsuit.
iandanforth 5y ago
This is obviously wrong and should be blocked via laws, but just in case you're here and haven't heard of pi-hole (https://pi-hole.net/ https://pi-hole.net/) taking internet-of-shit devices and blocking all the ways they try to access the net is kinda fun.
m463 5y ago
I bought a proform pro 2000 treadmill at costco. On the box, it mentioned "one-year iFit membership included (then says wifi and registration required for ifit)" I didn't want to use iFit, I just wanted to use the treadmill. However - You can't use the treadmill without connecting it to wifi, except for "manual mode". ZERO workouts. This involves dark patterns for setting up your treadmill and avoiding a wifi connection. then you can select manual mode - which can ONLY set the speed or incline manually. Oh yeah, this treadmill has an embedded camera and microphone. The description is a dark pattern, the UI is a dark pattern. pro-form has a horrible reputation from my direct experience. so I use it in manual mode. I don't use the 10.1" touchscreen except to start it moving. I suggest folks who want a treadmill just go to somewhere like Dick's and look at the treadmills and buy one after checking out the UI in person.
pm24601 5y ago
This is why I don't buy specialty hardware devices anymore. I jumped off the smart device treadmill with the fitbit. The only thing in my house that gets access to the internet are my computers and phone. Nothing else. If I turn it on and it complains about no internet - it gets returned as defective. I have a car charger (Juice Box) that have a smart app to control it. Nope not for me. Last thing I want is a hacked device fucking with my car's charging.
donatj 5y ago
Is the difference between a $500 treadmill and a $4,000 really just an Android tablet? A fool and money.
- djrogers 5y ago
  No. If you run on a good treadmill you can immediately feel the difference. Motor smoothness, the weight of the machine, the give and bounce of the platform, all of it adds up to a nicer running experience. That said, I still hate treadmills and prefer to run outside, but there’s a huge difference between a cheap one and a good one.
phasersout 5y ago
It seems these customers would be happier with any ole treadmill and a simple TV mounted to it.
luckystarr 5y ago
This isn't "hacking". This is "using". As long as the current vocabulary is used, it will be advantageous for "hardware hostage takers".
musikele 5y ago
When I read these articles, where people buy 4000$ treadmills only to watch netflix using an unsupported feature, I wonder why they don't buy a 1000$ treadmill without any display, a 50$ tablet stand, and an iPad or Android tablet (that they probably already have). You'd get exactly what you want, for a cheaper price..
- newaccount74 5y ago
  Because the 4000$ treadmill looks really neat: https://www.nordictrack.de/laufbander/nordictrack-x32i-incline-trainer https://www.nordictrack.de/laufbander/nordictrack-x32i-incli... Apparently there's a demand for well designed hardware that runs generic software.
  - des1nderlase 5y ago
    No, it's because, this is BS, just like expensive $5k - $10k bikes. These are "new golf" areas for mid-age men with excessive wealth to play with. Unfortunately that drives the market prices up, and hostile plays like this one for everyone.
    - newaccount74 5y ago
      Maybe it's BS to you, but there's always people who want something nicer. And if they can afford it, why not? If a 5k bike is what gets you to start exercising, it's probably even worth it.
hrdwdmrbl 5y ago
I wish it was even possible on my Peloton tread.
DrJaws 5y ago
A construction worker moving to cloud security and in a single sabbatical year already scrutinizing by himself the firmware and closed OS of a treadmill. makes me happy. Hope a lot of people can leave behind those low paid high effort jobs thanks to this 2 shitty years
davidgrenier 5y ago
I have setup firefox to drop all cookies when closing and whitelisted a few websites I still need to bear cookies. Upon using the above link, I ended up on a paywall. I hit F12 and check the creation date of all the cookies and confirm they had all been created the 19th (today, and incidentally had just woken up and turned on the computer). I refresh the website, still paywall. I delete all cookies manually for that page, hit refresh and can read the whole article. I don't understand how this is possible.
sharperguy 5y ago
Every time I read an article like this I just imagine Richard Stallman's face as he smugly says "treacherous computing".
glitcher 5y ago
Wow, sounds like a huge missed opportunity! If so many people were willing to pay a premium price for a device primarily because of how easy it was to customize, then perhaps it should be marketed that way in the first place. Hardware vendor lock-in subscriptions may seem to the corporate world like a big win on paper, but how many customers are they losing who are willing to pay for a very premium product that they get full control over? (looking at you peloton)
mdavis6890 5y ago
A good reason why I don't like to buy smart devices. That said, I think that if we want right-to-repair/tinker I think we also have to make reasonable concessions as well. E.g. No liability for the manufacturer due to running older or non OEM versions of software/firmware. No expectation of ongoing support or updates on those older branches. Of course liability should still exist for issues that were not caused by this alternate software even if you're running it.
thomas 5y ago
Totally dystopian. We need more dumb devices like https://non-smart.com https://non-smart.com

593 points by vishvananda 5y ago

I have an ebook reader mount I attach to the rafters. If I want to watch TV I set my laptop on some storage containers far back from the treadmill and put in my airpods. In both cases I'm looking straight ahead. Looking down at the NordicTrack screen doesn't seem ergonomic or comfortable. I don't get this article. Edit: From 2 points to 0. And probably going to go negative LOL.

JasonFruit 5y ago
I don't think the article was about ergonomics or comfort, or about how to watch TV or read a book while on the treadmill. It was about buying a product that does certain things, and then having the company that made it change its functionality without your consent. The question is, should you or should you not have control of the products you buy?
- waffle_maniac 5y ago
  Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading a book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing with that sentiment. I've found even a slight curve of my neck creates a lot of discomfort especially when running or walking.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    > Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading a book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing with that sentiment. Right, but that's not really the point of the article. It's not positing a debate over whether or not people exist who would be uncomfortable curving their neck while running or walking. The article doesn't really care about that debate. It's asking whether or not people should have control of the products they buy. Imagine there's an article about a blender that stops working without manufacturer-approved ingredients, and someone says, "well I hate all of the recipes that people are making that aren't approved and I think they taste gross, so I don't understand what this article is about." In that scenario, we understand that the blender article is about consumer rights, not recipe tips, and whether or not someone personally likes what people are doing with their products isn't really important to that conversation. The treadmill article is about consumer rights, not ergonomics.
    - waffle_maniac 5y ago
      Asides are allowed on HN as far as I know.
  - cecilpl2 5y ago
    > I've found even a slight curve of my neck creates a lot of discomfort especially when running or walking. Just because you personally had this experience doesn't mean that everyone does.
    - waffle_maniac 5y ago
      Certainly. And those people are free to chime in as well. But people put up with a lot of bad shit to experience something. I know I have.
CamperBob2 5y ago
You're both right. It's outrageous that companies are allowed to get away with nerfing products you've already paid for by pulling new restrictions and limitations out of thin air... and it's also bad form to look down at an LCD panel on a treadmill while using it. 100% guarantee of a painful side stitch, at least for me.

300bps 5y ago

https://archive.is/J2BM8 https://archive.is/J2BM8

dhimes 5y ago

If Nordic is being honest that the issue is safety- preventing users from diddling with their software and accidentally making it unsafe, then they can simply install a browser so the users can view what they wish online.

JasonFruit 5y ago
They can still make updates for safety obtain consent from the device owner before being installed. I should be able to opt out of measures for my own safety.
_fat_santa 5y ago
From Nordic's POV, this is a safety issue, it affects the safety of their bottom line. Adding a browser would also compromise safety, again not the safety of the user but the safety of their bottom line.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Hilarious take
- abeppu 5y ago
  But the first person interviewed was already a subscriber. They bought the hardware. They were paying for the content. He was making a pretty healthy contribution to their bottom line. Now that customer is alienated to the point of being interviewed for an article. I'm guessing they wouldn't recommend it to a friend or family. Taking away stuff from paying customers seems like a path towards not having recurring customers. If it was just about the money, they should have e.g. have pop-up ads cover the screen only for non-subscribers, such that people aren't inclined to buy the device, not subscribe to the ifit content, and watch youtube instructors or whatever.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  I wish more people were open to this notion of safety than the one that companies try to fool their customers into believing is for their own good.
5y ago

bmcniel 5y ago

Classically the feature was taken away to make you safer :) > The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,

whoomp12342 5y ago
yep, thats why they let you watch netflix on tredmills at the gym!

_fat_santa 5y ago

I really hate how we are moving more and more towards "managed experiences" in products. Used to, you would buy a product and use it how you see fit. But these days it seems that's not what the company wants you to do. You buy the product and enjoy a "managed" experience from the company. We see it everywhere with printers, coffee makers, phones, laptops, treadmills and even cars now. Everyone knows why this is being done, simply making money on a $99 coffeemaker is not good enough anymore, we have to make that $99 plus we have to make money in perpetuity because the customer now has to subscribe to our "managed experience". Now I understand this on some level with cheaper stuff like printers, that printer doesn't cost $20, it costs that because the company assumes you will buy the pods from them. But with a treadmill that goes for thousands it's a completely different ball game. Were going to get to the point where one day you will hop in your car and start driving into the countryside. At a certain point your car will just shut off because "Ford has decided that this route in unsafe for your vehicle, for the best experience, please drive back to the city, on your way back, consider enabling cup holders for an improved coffee drinking experience". The glimmer of hope on the horizon are companies like Framework and Pinephone. These companies realize that consumers are not happy with this shit and market themselves as the antithesis of these practices. I really hope these types of companies take off in the future.

waffle_maniac 5y ago
I bought a replacement $400 Canon printer recently. Same model, price is at least double what it was several years ago. The reason to buy the more expensive model is because there are readily available cheap third-party cartridges. A lot of the new cheaper models don't have that.
- fendy3002 5y ago
  What I've read people write online is to ditch inkjets altogether and go with laser printer or use megatank printers. Don't know how better they are though.
  - asdff 5y ago

gnabgib 5y ago

This is a couple of months old now, posted a few times.. not much discussion: [0] 8pts/1 comment [1] 15pts/1 comment [2] 5pts/0 comments [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288525 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29292826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29292826 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29296501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29296501

dmix 5y ago
Currently ranked #2 on HN, it happens.

gorjusborg 5y ago

This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent. My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.

amelius 5y ago
> If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore justified.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
- lupire 5y ago
  Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
  - 5y ago

axiosgunnar 5y ago

Just put a screen on a stand infront of your treadmill?

jasonlotito 5y ago
- asdff 5y ago
  Except unlike rsync vs. dropbox, using an ipad laid on top of the treadmill to watch netflix is probably a lot more intuitive than whatever garbage laggy smart-tv tier gui nordictrack saddles on their users.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Sorry but how is that even comparable? My comment is actually encouraging „hacking“ in the sense of finding unusual solutions other than the officially approved way.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
    Look up the HN thread on Dropbox when it debuted. You'll understand why jason compared your comment to what people said in that thread
treesknees 5y ago
I don't disagree with you... in fact my Nordic ProForm treadmill includes a built in tablet mount that floats above the control panel. I used it with my iPad up until I found out this "God Mode" of side loading apps existed. But some of these exercise machines actually come with an impressive 32inch HD screen and loud speakers built-in which you can hear over the running noise. If you stop paying hundreds of dollars per year for an iFit subscription, the only thing this giant display does is show you the time and distance on a white background. And perhaps you'd say, "don't buy a machine with a built-in screen", I'd say the article points out people actually decided to purchase these models _specifically_ because help articles and other resources showed how to get into the Android interface. Sideloading apps was practically sold as a feature.

jabroni_salad 5y ago

Jeeze, I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand. This is compatible not only with any commodity treadmill, but also bike trainers, ellipticals, and making vroomvroom noises on the motorcycle when it's too icy to actually ride. I could also swap out the ipad for a laptop, non-ipad tablet, or a collection of cute succulents should I desire it. snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys have access to similar stuff.

charles_f 5y ago
> I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand. I actually don't get the point of getting a 4000 treadmill rather than one that's half the price and an ipad
- Tildey 5y ago
  You save… uhhh… one power outlet? But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it “more realistic”. I think there may even be a sort of MMO/live ghost feature? Personally I think I’d rather just have music I like and work out at a pace that’s comfortable for me, but to each their own I suppose.
  - jabroni_salad 5y ago
    I'm a zwift user and I really like it. You can designate a course and it will adjust the resistance to match the elevation changes. There is live or ghost racing (with simulated drafting, which is cool) and other neat things, but the routes and structured training is what I'm there for. My tacx trainer was only $300 or so when I bought it, which was comparable to non-bluetooth trainers. That said, I already owned a fancy roadbike to use with it, which is not a negligible cost.

MaxBarraclough 5y ago

Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes important features. To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

frozenport 5y ago
Thats because Sony originally marketed OtherOS but then changed the functionality after the users had purchased the machines.
sschueller 5y ago
Successful for whom? The layers or the consumer? Sadly in many class action cases the "victims" get effectively nothing. The way class action is done in the US it only makes sense for the law firms. I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero...
- slantyyz 5y ago
  > I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero... I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for.
  - nybble41 5y ago
    > Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for. Your area requires lawyers to solicit class members to sign up for class actions? Lucky! Around here you'll just be grouped into the class action without asking for consent. If you're lucky they'll mail you a notice about the suit on a postcard and let you "opt out" by locating a non-editable PDF of a form buried somewhere on their site, printing it & filling it in by hand, and sending it to their headquarters by certified mail at your own expense. (If you're less lucky you get to write up your own free-form opt-out letter and hope it meets their standards.) If you don't do this then you lose the ability to sue as an individual, or to refrain from being (ab)used to bully the defendant (and enrich the lawyers) in the event that you don't agree with the basis for the suit.

CountDrewku 5y ago

I don't understand this obsession with electronic exercise devices. The peloton, that stupid thing that mounts to the wall, treadmills etc. Outside is so much better than all of those. I will 100% run in single digit temperatures with snow on the ground before I touch a treadmill. If I have to be inside it's weight lifting.

CoastalCoder 5y ago
Here's why I prefer electronic exercise devices: - When my kids were younger, I was always nearby during a workout. - I can comfortably work out regardless of the season, weather, or time of day. - I can easily take a bathroom break mid-workout. - I can do much longer workouts without getting bored, because I can watch movies or play video games during the workout. (E.g., using an exercise bike + my own computer.) This works around motivational / persistence issues I used to have. - I can end a workout on short notice. Contrast to a long-distance run or bikeride, where I may be far from home when something comes up.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  You can go outside and workout just fine, you're just choosing not to. Everything about doing exercise on machines is worse for you. It's better than nothing.
ultrasounder 5y ago
Awesome good on you and more power to you. BUT Treadmill, Spinning bike and Rowing is for a different demographic. And You are not part of that demographic.Gabeesh?
jasonlotito 5y ago
Kids, safety, convenience, positive encouragement, all these things help. Not everyone is as privileged as you where you can easily just go outside and leave your home without a care in the world.
- Gwarzo 5y ago

treesknees 5y ago

The method to get into "God Mode" is the same, except now it prompts you for a code. Someone has figured out how to calculate it and actually created a website to generate codes for you. http://getresponsecode.com http://getresponsecode.com Apparently the algorithm is very simple according to Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privileged_mode_patched/hoazr1z/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privile... >long responseCode = new Random((long) Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999); It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode enabled. It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well. We should also be looking into how to block updates to these devices.

vuldin 5y ago
This is great, thanks for posting this site. I am one of those who bought this awesome treadmill for several reasons, including to watch netflix and plex. It's been frustrating not being able to easily do this... I have just been listening to podcasts from my phone.
ncann 5y ago
Normally you can block any device's update if you figure out the server for the update content/update check, and block it out from your router and/or DNS.
- EvanAnderson 5y ago
  The "solution" for that will be embedded 5G connections.
  - konschubert 5y ago
    That would work equally well with LTE. It's not happening because it would increase cost.

erwincoumans 5y ago

Suitable story, hacking walled gardens on HN. Reminds me of the Rigol DS1054Z 50 MHz oscilloscope, that you can trivially 'hack' into the more expensive DS1074Z 75 MHz or DS11074Z 100 MHz scope. Rigol hasn't disabled this hack, even though they can easily do it. They likely loose money if they do so, since customers move to other scopes. Also, some Tesla updates make the experience worse instead of better (V11 update is terrible, inconsistent UI and much more menu diving). I should have disabled auto-updates, and read the forums before doing the update next time.

quux 5y ago
I think Rigol gave in to the hackers? Last year I bought a DS1054Z from amazon and it came with all the options permanently enabled.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Your aside reminds me of the PSP hacking days. Whenever there was an update, you'd have to hold it and check forums to see if it patched your root exploit.
rlpb 5y ago
This is the first I've heard of it - but is this perhaps a straightforward avenue for conventional price discrimination? Businesses that want the 100 MHz may well just pay for it because they don't want the hassle the hack might lead to. And the people who'd use the hack probably wouldn't have paid for the more expensive one anyway. So Rigol might be extracting maximum value thanks to the hack, rather than despite it.
tzs 5y ago
The system for key validation to enable the various features on that scope [1] is actually, if I recall correctly, a well designed system using sound, strong cryptography except they used short enough keys that you can easily brute force it. That's what they keygen programs for it do. It is almost inconceivable that they would know enough to use good cryptography but not know that they needed long keys, so a lot of people believe they intended for it to be easy to hack. One theory I've heard that makes sense is that this is for price discrimination. Your hobbyist user, buying a scope to figure out what is going wrong when they try to talk to their humidity sensor with their Arduino, is not going to pay an extra couple hundred dollars to get the protocol decoding add-on. Paying $400 for the basic scope is already near their limit. So let them have all the features--it makes the Rigol scope more attractive to those users without really costing Rigol anything. So why not just include all the features without requiring keys to enable them? Because people using the scope for business will pay more for them. That's because if they use a keygen program to enable them and use the scope to design or test some product, and later something goes wrong with that product and someone gets hurt and they find themselves being sued, they don't want to have to deal with how a plaintiff's attorney would try to spin that in front of jury. Sure, it would probably not be hard for the defense to respond and explain that the scope behaves exactly the same regardless of whether the key was purchased from Rigol or came from a third party keygen program, so you might think no harm would be done by plaintiff bringing this up. However, civil trials have time limits on how much total time each side gets to present their case and to rebut the other side's case. If defense has to take time to educate the jury on the whole Rigol key system and how keygen programs are safe, that's time they don't have for other things. I've seen that kind of thing happen. I was a witness for a plaintiff in a suit. Early on, defense was able to find something totally minor but that looked bad if you didn't know the details of state tax and corporations bureaucracy [2]. It took them 2 minutes to use that to make us look dishonest. It took much longer the next day to explain all the details to counter that. For the rest of the trial, we were short on time and had to drop some things. Later, when I was on the stand defense asked some questions about a particular piece of software the plaintiffs developed. They asked detailed technical questions and I answered them. Then they said "play the video of tzs's deposition from <date several months earlier>". On that video I was asked the same questions I had just been asked in court, and answered that I had not worked on that software and didn't know the answers. Defense then said "no further questions" and walked away. I expected our lawyers to then ask about this, so we could explain why I apparently was either lying my ass off in the deposition or lying my ass off a few moments ago, but they didn't. They later told me they were short on time, and decided that having the jury think I was a liar was less of a problem than dropping the other stuff they would have to drop to deal with that. So why the apparent discrepancy between my deposition and my later in court testimony? The deposition was 100% correct. I had not worked and that software and didn't have any deep technical knowledge of how it worked. Later however, I was designated as the person on our side who would be answering all technical questions about our software. This would cover all our software that might come up in the case, not just what I had worked on. So I spent a considerable amount of time after that deposition studying the source for such software, and by the time of the trial I was able to answer deep technical questions concerning it. (Which defendant was fully aware of, by the way, since between my first deposition and the trial, there was a deposition where I appeared in the role of expert on all our software). [1] Besides doubling the bandwidth, there are keys for expanding the amount of memory, adding advanced trigger options, adding protocol decoding for various useful protocols like I2C and RS-232, and I think some other features that I'm forgetting. [2] Briefly, when you paid your taxes you got a receipt from the state revenue department. You were supposed to file a copy of that receipt with the state corporations office. Someone failed to do that. If one then queried the corporations office we were listed as having not paid our taxes.

DevKoala 5y ago

This hacks is impressive, but very pointless. A regular treadmill plus an iPad is a much better combo and it goes for $1k less total.

throwaway81523 5y ago
I'd be interested in knowing where to order a 32 inch ipad for $1000.
- reificator 5y ago
  They didn't say it was identical, they said it was a much better combo.
- DevKoala 5y ago
  Fine, attach a TV to it for $200. The whole thing just seems silly.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  You can buy them for much less than that. They're known as 'televisions' and you can get even bigger ones than 32 inch for under $500!

deleted 5y ago

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mcherm 5y ago

My solution to this problem would be legislation that allows customers, if they wish to, to return devices for a full refund if the company that manufactures the device makes a change that removes functionality that the customer valued. This doesn't prevent the company from making the change, it simply makes sure that they incur a cost for doing so, and it makes whole any customer affected by the change.

klabb3 5y ago
Wow this is by far the best solution to this pervasive problem I've seen, no irony. This way, you don't need legislators go into technical and domain specific detail. Producers are incentivized to provide optional updates or "downgrades" if necessary, and if they shut their cloud services off and brick the device, people have a right to return it. Additionally, it can't be abused by customers if the company acts well. However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e. That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it". Any ideas?
- rchaud 5y ago
  You won't need legislators, but you will have to make your case to whoever is manning the returns department at Walmart.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    You misinterpreted. Of course you still need a judiciary process. But you’ll won it because the law would clearly be on your side. Still hard to prove your case, but no company will take the risk because they could have thousands of customers ready to prove they have been abused.
tzs 5y ago
What counts as functionality? For example suppose the UI of a treadmill has a "Last 5 workout programs used" section on the front page of the UI to allow the user to select with one tap a recent program. An update replace that with a "recents..." button which takes you to a new screen that shows the last 10 programs used. Is no longer providing one tap access to the most recent 5 programs removal of functionality? Or is the feature just that it has a way to recall recent programs so as long as there still is a way to do that, even if more convoluted, it does not count as a feature removal? How about functionality that was not in the device when it was purchased but was added by an update? If the law does apply to that, then in effect the manufacturer will be locked into only ever adding functionality. After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess. If the law only applies to features present at purchase, then manufactures will just ship bare bones devices that only implement what is necessary to make the claims on the box and in their advertisements not false. Then the first update will add a ton of stuff to make it more than bare bones.

cwal37 5y ago

This is related to why I bought a concept2 erg recently. Hurt my achilles and needed to switch to a low impact exercise, which I prefer to be able to do at home rather than going somewhere else (so swimming is out). Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on the very simple monitor it came with. [0] https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm5-black https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm...

cool_dude85 5y ago
Concept 2 is indeed the cheaper and better option for an erg. Aside from being very sturdy machines at reasonable prices compared to your nordictracs and pelotons, old models are supported essentially forever with spare parts and detailed installation/fix instructions. I dont know of any rowers who don't swear by them.
- qqqwerty 5y ago
  I picked up a model A for just this reason. $120 on craigslist for a 35 year old machine. It is super solid, but will need to replace a few minor parts soon. And from what I can tell they are all available for purchase from concept2, which is awesome.
  - ordersofmag 5y ago
    Mmmmm, a Model A. I miss those days. No electronics whatsoever. Just that mechanical odometer ticking over ever so slowly.
prettyStandard 5y ago
I own a concept 2. I have 4.6 million meters on it. I watch programming videos in Spanish while I workout(To learn Spanish). This is my "Smart Workout Machine". https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939 https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939

dschuetz 5y ago

Remember Sony removing OtherOS/Linux from the PS3? Yeah? No? That's the reason I don't buy Sony hardware anymore. See, the issue is decades old. But somehow people keep forgetting.

rchaud 5y ago
I still bought the PS3 because PSN online play was free, while Xbox Live required a subscription. I think PSN is subscription-only now though.
OneLeggedCat 5y ago
I'm still angry about the way they handled the CD root kits, even after being called out on it.

mikestew 5y ago

Not that NordicTrack cares about purchases from l'il ol' me in the larger scheme of things, this is precisely why we didn't buy a NordicTrack treadmill despite being tickled with our NordicTrack rowing machine: that screen is there for NordicTrack's benefit, not yours. Sure, I'm a software engineer as well as owning a soldering iron and knowing how to use it. But if I've got to unsolder/resolder wires or cut traces on my brand-new machine to get the functionality I thought I paid for, I bought the wrong machine. If I have to use a software hack that is one update away from not working anymore, I have purchased the wrong machine. I'll let others rant about not being able to use the hardware that one paid for, I'm just not going to pay for the HW in the first place. (And, honestly, how many of us on HN need another screen around the house?) It's disappointing, too, because we're quite satisfied with our NT rowing machine, which was purchased right before the "big screen" models, and we would otherwise recommend it. But now you can't buy the one with the cheap LCD display like we have and just bring your own screen, you have to get proprietary screen models now. So I don't recommend their rowing machines anymore, either. After much research, we bought a treadmill from Horizon fitness[0]. We've been nothing but happy with it, which is their top-of-the-line 7.8. It has BT for music to play over the built-in speakers, and it works fine with Zwift and even the iFit subscription that NordicTrack pushes (it just won't auto-control the treadmill speed/incline, which is a-okay by me). BT streams your data to Zwift, et. al., including speed/incline/HR. It has a built-in stand for your tablet, though anyone on HN ought to be able to rig some cheap 27" 4k monitor in there somehow (we use a wall-mount for the rowing machine that swivels for general purpose use). The spouse and I have used it with Zwift, iFit, and Apple Fitness+, though Zwift is the only one that cares about data from the BT stream. As running goes I used to be fast, but now I'm just old and still faster than most, and it does everything I need for dark, rainy PNW days. I use it for tempo and intervals on occasion as well, and the one-button presets for interval/recovery are nice so when I'm gasping for breath I just need to be able to push the recovery button. Anyway, no association whatsoever with Horizon, just a very satisfied customer. [0] https://www.horizonfitness.com https://www.horizonfitness.com

gennarro 5y ago

Exactly why I only buy dumb devices ex: https://non-smart.com https://non-smart.com type stuff

npteljes 5y ago
I opted for hackable ones, like the PineTime smart watch, or a previous flagship phone that has a compatible LineageOS build.
suyula 5y ago
That used to be me until I discovered how many smart devices have the ability to be flashed with open source firmware like Tasmota or ESPHome. Best of both worlds!
raziel2p 5y ago
on that website, the menu button does nothing and if I search for "tv" no relevant results come up. maybe the site isn't smart enough.

maurits 5y ago

The short and completely correct reason as to why my e-reader has never, and will never ever, be connected to wifi.

abfan1127 5y ago
how do you get content on it?
- maurits 5y ago
  Kobo's used to have a memory card slot. No need to even connect it with usb.
- Karsteski 5y ago
  For my kindle paperwhite I simply plug it into my computer like it's 2010

rchaud 5y ago

"God Mode"? What they describe is just how to access developer options on an Android device, isn't it? It doesn't provide root access or anything, just the ability to sideload apps and a few other things.

remram 5y ago

"God Mode" make it seem like such an unreasonable request. How about "Owner Mode"?

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
This. It is weird to read basic administrator mode referred to as something beyond mere man's understanding, but it does feed into this narrative that an average human should not try mess with the magic box.

keyle 5y ago

I'm utterly disappointed I didn't see any footage of DOOM running on it. If those hackers didn't spend so much time trying to be healthy, they could focus their time on an actual worthy task! /s

habeebtc 5y ago

The alternative here is to buy a waterproof tablet, and a decent mount to attach it to your treadmill. https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B00BCSYZVY https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B...

friendlydog 5y ago

We need an Electronic bill of rights. 1. You must allow full root privileges for Electronic devices to the owners 2. You may not circumvent owners rights through leasing or other means. 3. You may not create barriers to device owners using their devices how they see fit.

tremon 5y ago
Like GPLv3's anti-Tivoization clause?
npteljes 5y ago
I'd also like code to become open source, at least after a while - last product sell date + X years or something.
- makapuf 5y ago
  This can be problematic if the hardware vendor purchases software from a third party, and that software is not discontinued.
drran 5y ago
GPL v3

kelvin0 5y ago

I like my devices cheap, dumb and offline. Nothing else.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> and finding workarounds that allow them to bypass the update and watch whatever they want while they work out. Like buying a TV and mounting it on the wall in front of the treadmill? Do these people not have access to 2x4s? Why does your TV screen need to be integrated into your exercise equipment?

chris_wot 5y ago

Honestly, it is getting to the point where your best bet is to buy a cheaper device with minimal features, then mount a screen onto it and hook it up to a Linux box to play what you want. Cheaper and actually gives you what you want. Might force the vendor to allow for more customization, given a lot of people stop buying their premium range.

charles_f 5y ago

> NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules. I don't get why companies think this kind of blanket statements are useful, when they're immediately made null by their actions. > However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety. This is such obvious BS, when the real kicker is that after you already shelled $4k, they really really want you to rack out that sweet sweet monthly subscription money and don't want any competitors on a screen that, it turns out, they can control. Greedy manufacturers wanting to get into that monthly recurring revenue model.

anyfoo 5y ago

Following Wirecutter's suggestion, I got a ProForm 505 treadmill. Like Wirecutter said, it's cheap, a bit janky, but does the job adequately for a "non-pro" like me. When unpacking it and setting it up, there were multiple notices everywhere: On the packaging, as a separate note in the packaging, in the manual, on the treadmill itself. Those notes all said that the treadmill is "locked" and you need "online activation" to unlock it. I was getting very nervous, since I thought I bought something that does not need online activation. However I think it was also Wirecutter that mentioned that you can just press the iFit button for longer than 15 seconds--or was it 30 seconds?--and it's "unlocked". I did that once and it worked ever since, never needed to do anything online, or connect it via Bluetooth, WiFi or anything else.

deleted 5y ago
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alkonaut 5y ago

That it was advertised anywhere in documentation as possible is what makes it a hostile move by the manufacturer. Had this been just some kind of open secret “hack” then buyers really should expect this. Remember: when you buy a gadget with a screen and associated “services” like video subscriptions you aren’t just buying a lump of tech. Your price is set after careful weighing of how much customers will consume the subscription services. If the add on service is provided by a third party it’s even worse: your products’ ability to deliver something other than their service is probably a breach of contract. My guess: the treadmill makers didn’t mind people watching Netflix on their gadget. Their partners on content though has given them deals on the premise that everyone who didn’t buy a subscription should have a feeling that they wasted $4k on an empty screen. So when they hear a number of users are watching Netflix, they get angry. Treadmill makers must block the god mode. The sad thing here is obviously that the idea of making a good open product without strings attached or subscriptions seems like an impossibility these days.

logicalmonster 5y ago

Is there any theory as to what NordicTrack hopes to gain out of preventing customers from using the screen as they see fit? NordicTrack already has the customers' money, so why would they really care? Are they trying to do some kind of advertising on the screen? Are just going through run of the mill security updates and there's bad communication between the customers and NordicTrack not understanding each other because of a layer of dumb bureaucracy between marketing/developers?

fckgw 5y ago
NordicTrack is owned by iFit which sells a workout subscription service. The screen is "intended" only for iFit content so they've locked users out of other uses.
bobsmooth 5y ago
So customers are forced to subscribe to their service to watch media.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Probably because they want to be the middle man for these services they provide or are going to. After all just like Apple they feel entitled to these cuts. The people who buy these gadgets are people with too much money or techbros that go out of their way to justify the control apple has over the platform or 30% apple takes. Business wise it makes sense. And of course if everything is not locked down then you can always scare people with hackers.

cwkoss 5y ago

It should be illegal to remove features from a hardware product with a software 'update' without offering all pre-existing customers to return the hardware if they affirm the removed (or newly pay-gated) feature was a factor in making their purchase. Customers currently have zero recourse, because they are paying for the hardware, but the software allows the hardware functionality to be changed or removed at whim without any financial risk to the company. Credit card chargebacks may work sometimes, but only if the purchase was recent: 'smart' hardware vendors often ruin their products more than 90 days after purchase.

cube00 5y ago
Does that still apply if the "feature" is not one advertised by the manufacturer? They're framing it as safety issue and jail broken devices and leaked content keys get updated all the time to close those loopholes.
smabie 5y ago
I feel like so many things are already illegal, do we really need more illegal stuff?

jengajengajenga 5y ago

mdoms 5y ago

Wait until runners hear about "outside".

OneLeggedCat 5y ago

> “The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,” says a spokesperson for NordicTrack lol what a straight up fucking lie.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

beloch 5y ago

"NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules. However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety. " The real reason they don't want people using other apps or watching third party videos is because anyone doing that is not spending money on iFit. Or, at least, not as much as they could be. NordicTrack likely discounted these treadmills to squeeze out competitors with the intention of making their money back by locking customers into iFit. If a few users hack their treadmills, that's not going to hurt NordicTrack's bottom line. If most users are doing it because it's as easy as tapping the screen 10 times, then there's a problem. So, NordicTrack has made it harder to gain admin access. Not impossible. Just harder. More people will go back to spending money on iFit, the determined few will roll up their sleeves, and the business model will be restored. The problem is that this business model is a bait and switch. When people pay for a treadmill they don't expect to be locked into further monthly payments to unlock its features. It's inherently dishonest, and the victim, aside from users, is the competitor who produces an honest product that's paid for entirely up front and is, hence, more expensive and less competitive.

dbsmith83 5y ago
I really wonder about the payoff in the continual cat and mouse game here. At some point, you are going to be paying a sizeable sum to your devs to try a lock out a relatively small amount of technically capable people who will circumvent the system rather than pay a subscription fee. I agree making a little harder once probably convinced a few people to pay up...but after that it has to be diminishing returns and eventually negative returns. I wonder what the tradeoff would be if they marketed their system was one that as open and you could do so many things with it. Like, imagine if the commercials showed how you could use your treadmill but also connect to any app you wanted, like Netflix. To me, that would be a big draw.
vl 5y ago
NordicTrack treadmills are quite expensive actually. Full incline model are $3000 and $4000, and there is no competition for them.
criddell 5y ago

Zak 5y ago

If you don't have root on a software-controlled device, it isn't really yours. Unfortunately, I think we've lost a lot of ground in that fight when it comes to consumer devices. To the HN community at large: how do we start clawing it back?

coopreme 5y ago

Does anyone know the domains they use to connect/update? I’ve got one of these (different brand) but still unlocked by the 10 taps method. I’ve still never connected mine to WiFi but I like to dim the screen. I could setup DNS blocks and then connect to WiFi to verify it works for a more long term solution for folks (well, that intersection of those that run a pinhole and on a treadmill). I didn’t connect it to WiFi (even after unlocking) primarily because I worry about it being another data collection tool (WiFi, bt) and it has a camera/mic on it.

davidw 5y ago

I can hear RMS singing "Join us now and share the software".

ijidak 5y ago

On October 28, I bought the NordicTrac T-Series for $650. After installation, it had a lock screen asking me to subscribe to start using the treadmill! Can you imagine? I paid for the treadmill, and you're telling me I can't even walk on it without paying you again? So what did my $650 pay for?!? If I can't use a device's most basic function without paying an additional subscription, then can Amazon label the button "Buy Now"? What exactly did I "Buy" if it's a paperweight without an additional subscription? Nowhere did the product page say that having a subscription is a pre-req to use this device: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0193V3DJ6 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0193V3DJ6 Thankfully, the company Amazon hired to setup the treadmill found the trick to bypass that screen. But now, after hearing about this update, I'm afraid they will lock my treadmill again. I just use my treadmill to walk on it. I don't need any apps. Left to their own devices, these companies will find a way to charge us to breathe. So happy I'm not looking to any human governments to fix this nonsense.

CrendKing 5y ago
This review says you can bypass it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RN1OVJIW3986S/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0193V3DJ6 https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RN1OVJIW3986S/ref... > TO GET AROUND THIS SCAM, hold down the iFit logo on the treadmill for 30 seconds and your treadmill will work. Admittedly, it sucks if you need to do this every time. But it's Amazon, so return?
deleted 5y ago
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rurp 5y ago
Have you considered returning it and buying a different one? There are plenty of treadmills out there without this user hostile nonsense that would make better use of your purchase money. As a total aside, I bought a treadmill last year and turned it into a walking desk as part of my WFH setup. I wasn't sure how much I would use it, but holy cow I love it!

CrendKing 5y ago

The "right-to-repair" sentiment is totally understandable, as the article says. However, on the other hand, imagine some user modified the underlying Android, which caused the treadmill to run unstoppably, which end up injuring him. He then sues the company for millions of dollars. If I were the owner of the company, I would rather losing some customers than sleeping on a ticking bomb. Their move is also understandable. I think an ideal solution could be the manufacturer officially supports accessing the "privilege mode" with some sort of "release of liability". Customer must agree to this the first time they access, forfeiting warranty and ability to sue. Much like when people decide to unlock phone bootloader and root. And to make all manufacturers willing to provide privilege mode to their products, I think either 1) the court makes clear statement of supporting this legally, or 2) having a supreme court precedence established for this, is required, otherwise some manufacturers would still fear the potential legal risk.

SamBam 5y ago
This sounds like concern trolling. What happens if, when you're upgrading your new right-to-repair laptop, you leave some wires sticking out of the battery and fry yourself, and then sue the laptop maker? Indeed, what happens when you fry yourself repairing the ur-right-to-repair device, the light fixture with a removable lightbulb? You can invent any scenario for any machine or device that the user can repair, but it should be fairly straightforward to add language that says "if you modify the device's behavior in such a way that it harms you, that's not our fault."
somebodythere 5y ago
That person would not win the lawsuit.

iandanforth 5y ago

This is obviously wrong and should be blocked via laws, but just in case you're here and haven't heard of pi-hole (https://pi-hole.net/ https://pi-hole.net/) taking internet-of-shit devices and blocking all the ways they try to access the net is kinda fun.

m463 5y ago

I bought a proform pro 2000 treadmill at costco. On the box, it mentioned "one-year iFit membership included (then says wifi and registration required for ifit)" I didn't want to use iFit, I just wanted to use the treadmill. However - You can't use the treadmill without connecting it to wifi, except for "manual mode". ZERO workouts. This involves dark patterns for setting up your treadmill and avoiding a wifi connection. then you can select manual mode - which can ONLY set the speed or incline manually. Oh yeah, this treadmill has an embedded camera and microphone. The description is a dark pattern, the UI is a dark pattern. pro-form has a horrible reputation from my direct experience. so I use it in manual mode. I don't use the 10.1" touchscreen except to start it moving. I suggest folks who want a treadmill just go to somewhere like Dick's and look at the treadmills and buy one after checking out the UI in person.

pm24601 5y ago

This is why I don't buy specialty hardware devices anymore. I jumped off the smart device treadmill with the fitbit. The only thing in my house that gets access to the internet are my computers and phone. Nothing else. If I turn it on and it complains about no internet - it gets returned as defective. I have a car charger (Juice Box) that have a smart app to control it. Nope not for me. Last thing I want is a hacked device fucking with my car's charging.

donatj 5y ago

Is the difference between a $500 treadmill and a $4,000 really just an Android tablet? A fool and money.

djrogers 5y ago
No. If you run on a good treadmill you can immediately feel the difference. Motor smoothness, the weight of the machine, the give and bounce of the platform, all of it adds up to a nicer running experience. That said, I still hate treadmills and prefer to run outside, but there’s a huge difference between a cheap one and a good one.

phasersout 5y ago

It seems these customers would be happier with any ole treadmill and a simple TV mounted to it.

luckystarr 5y ago

This isn't "hacking". This is "using". As long as the current vocabulary is used, it will be advantageous for "hardware hostage takers".

musikele 5y ago

When I read these articles, where people buy 4000$ treadmills only to watch netflix using an unsupported feature, I wonder why they don't buy a 1000$ treadmill without any display, a 50$ tablet stand, and an iPad or Android tablet (that they probably already have). You'd get exactly what you want, for a cheaper price..

newaccount74 5y ago
Because the 4000$ treadmill looks really neat: https://www.nordictrack.de/laufbander/nordictrack-x32i-incline-trainer https://www.nordictrack.de/laufbander/nordictrack-x32i-incli... Apparently there's a demand for well designed hardware that runs generic software.
- des1nderlase 5y ago
  No, it's because, this is BS, just like expensive $5k - $10k bikes. These are "new golf" areas for mid-age men with excessive wealth to play with. Unfortunately that drives the market prices up, and hostile plays like this one for everyone.
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    Maybe it's BS to you, but there's always people who want something nicer. And if they can afford it, why not? If a 5k bike is what gets you to start exercising, it's probably even worth it.

hrdwdmrbl 5y ago

I wish it was even possible on my Peloton tread.

DrJaws 5y ago

A construction worker moving to cloud security and in a single sabbatical year already scrutinizing by himself the firmware and closed OS of a treadmill. makes me happy. Hope a lot of people can leave behind those low paid high effort jobs thanks to this 2 shitty years

davidgrenier 5y ago

I have setup firefox to drop all cookies when closing and whitelisted a few websites I still need to bear cookies. Upon using the above link, I ended up on a paywall. I hit F12 and check the creation date of all the cookies and confirm they had all been created the 19th (today, and incidentally had just woken up and turned on the computer). I refresh the website, still paywall. I delete all cookies manually for that page, hit refresh and can read the whole article. I don't understand how this is possible.

sharperguy 5y ago

Every time I read an article like this I just imagine Richard Stallman's face as he smugly says "treacherous computing".

glitcher 5y ago

Wow, sounds like a huge missed opportunity! If so many people were willing to pay a premium price for a device primarily because of how easy it was to customize, then perhaps it should be marketed that way in the first place. Hardware vendor lock-in subscriptions may seem to the corporate world like a big win on paper, but how many customers are they losing who are willing to pay for a very premium product that they get full control over? (looking at you peloton)

mdavis6890 5y ago

A good reason why I don't like to buy smart devices. That said, I think that if we want right-to-repair/tinker I think we also have to make reasonable concessions as well. E.g. No liability for the manufacturer due to running older or non OEM versions of software/firmware. No expectation of ongoing support or updates on those older branches. Of course liability should still exist for issues that were not caused by this alternate software even if you're running it.

thomas 5y ago

Totally dystopian. We need more dumb devices like https://non-smart.com https://non-smart.com