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The memo from Emirates about not setting altitude in system to airport altitude is so weird. I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out

• rectang 5y ago
  From a top comment on the article by "Mark D": > I’m a captain at a U.S. major airline with a lot of time in 777s. [...] Also, this is something that SHOULD have been caught by at least two separate checklists, which they obviously didn’t do.
  • cybertronic 5y ago
    Adding at the end: " ... So, these pilots were ill trained and negligent. Don’t fly on these types of carriers. I don’t."
    • ytdytvhxgydvhh 5y ago
      I wonder what “these types of carriers” means here. I know there are low-cost carriers and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had less-experienced pilots, etc. But to me Emirates strikes me as a well-funded, reputable operation. Does he mean Middle Eastern carriers?
      • quacked 5y ago
        If the country you're in: - Prioritizes "face" or "reputation" above literal accuracy - Has lower-level officials that accept bribes - Has had airlines and planes for fewer than 5 decades Assume any complex high-risk engineering system run by that culture will occasionally fail in major ways.
        • deleted 5y ago
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        • la6471 5y ago
        • azth 5y ago
          > - Has lower-level officials that accept bribes How many countries does that leave? And why only low level, why not also high level? Doesn't that rule out the US as well? > - Has had airlines and planes for fewer than 5 decades Also sounds arbitrary.
          • throwaway898989 5y ago
            I am expat in south east asia and his comment is correct low level officials taking bribes means you can do stuff like never wear a seatbelt, just pay the cop $20 USD if you get pulled over. get pulled up for smoking indoors? $20 USD. run over an illegal immigrant and kill them? USD 1000 to have their records completely erased. Sim card? $5 USD cash. rape? what? the police here hung up on my friend on a 911 call because they spoke english and not the 'national language' (police do speak english here).on a different note, it is legal to rape your wife here low level corruption causes immense problems and injustices in society. here, everyone drink drives. driving a car while extremely drunk here is default behaviour. ye high level official bribery will cause probelms, but the low level stuff is what completely craters the system and causes the catastrophic failures in complex engineering systems. i am in the country of mh370
            • inside6 5y ago
    • rectang 5y ago
      I omitted that bit because I thought it was the least interesting part of Mark D's comment. The subthread which it has inspired here has reinforced my impression. :( There was actually lots of additional interesting technical detail from Mark D which I also left out; the part that was germane to the comment I replied to was the bit about the checklists, since that backed up the notion that the Emirates notice was messed up and weird. The conclusion though, "Don’t fly on these types of carriers", can easily be interpreted as a sociocultural swipe, even if I'm inclined to believe Mark D meant something else and just botched the wording.
• nradov 5y ago
  The incident description seems incomplete. With the high takeoff speed and slow climb rate, is it possible that the main error was an incorrect flaps setting?
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    777 has a takeoff configuration warning system, so unlikely. Far more likely is the pilots simply failed to command sufficient pitch up (higher pitch gives a lower airspeed and higher climb rate [at least in the airspeed and pitch regime we’re talking about here]). Takeoff configuration warning can be silenced, but is an abort before the 80 knot callout.
    • csunbird 5y ago
      Disclaimer: My experience in piloting is just a couple of hours flying planes in kerbal space program. Wouldn't that much speed cause the plane to ascent naturally, even with zero pitch, just by the body lift? (Although, it is quite possible that real life planes have negative body lift, I have no idea)
      • LordFast 5y ago
        Fellow kerbal space program attendee here: I believe that while smaller planes will naturally pitch up as speed increases, jumbo jets are much more lumpant even with the correct flaps. That's the terrifying thing in my understanding: the plane basically had no manual pitch due to incorrect config values, and were barely gliding off the ground from minimal natural lift. Meanwhile the two potatoes at the helm were fiddling with the config values instead of pulling on the yoke.
      • deleted 5y ago
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      • selectodude 5y ago
        They probably were given a command to stay at 4000 above ground (AGL) level after takeoff. The plane was to level off until further instructions from ATC. Since the plane was set to sea level on takeoff, the plane tried to level off at 4000 ft above sea level which…is not good. The plane was pitched down to descend.
• SkyMarshal 5y ago
  > It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. I am not a pilot, but that's exactly what I thought when I read the memo too. They should be putting responsibility for the next flight on the next flight's crew, not the prior flight's crew. Train each crew to assume the plane they're prepping for their next flight is FUBAR in every way, checklist everything, fix it as necessary, and go from there. Don't rely on the prior crew for anything.
  • thewarrior 5y ago
    I know nothing about aviation but it seems to me like the auto pilot software could use a lot of improvement. Why on earth would you give the pilot an instruction that would almost certainly lead to a crash ? It seems like there aren’t enough sanity checks. Any such dodgy situation should trigger an alarm and disengage the auto pilot imo.
    • sitharus 5y ago
      Auto pilots disengaging and sounding an alarm in unexpected situations have lead to multiple crashes, also the autopilot wasn’t engaged at the time, but the pilot was following a computer created flight path. Commercial aviation is designed around highly trained people following defined procedures. Auto pilots are not supposed to second-guess the inputs because that adds to confusion and cognitive load on the pilots. Pilots tell the computer what to do, not the other way around. What _should_ have happened here is the pilot monitoring should be watching the instruments and calling out flight stages. When the pilot flying didn’t initiate a proper climb they should have called this out, or taken over control until a safe altitude was established. This wasn’t an autopilot issue, this was a breakdown on crew resource management.
    • teeray 5y ago
      By my reading, auto pilot was not involved. Flight Directors are basically an overlay on the instruments showing where the pitch, roll, etc. of the plane needs to be to achieve the programmed navigational fixes.
• cm2187 5y ago
  Isn’t there some sort of reset settings button when you start a new flight? Like is there any setting set by the previous crew that should be left as is by the new crew?
  • lmilcin 5y ago
    Nope. The crew is responsible for verifying anything and everything important for the flight safety. A button like that would be pretty dangerous. Just imagine somebody pressed this in an emergency... In general flying a plane is already complex. You need to be able to understand what is going to happen to the plane when you press a button. Something that resets a lot of other settings would have extremely complex consequences.
  • GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Most of the switches are physical selectors and dials that aren't motorized so it would be impossible to reset those. And a partial reset would probably be even more confusing.
    • p_l 5y ago
      The flight computer isn't controlled by physical dials, and that's where you do pre-flight calculations (including the V1 and V2 speeds for given takeoff mass)
• deleted 5y ago
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• jefftk 5y ago
  > I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. It is; there's a picture of it on https://www.godsavethepoints.com/emirates-flight-231-takeoff-incident/ https://www.godsavethepoints.com/emirates-flight-231-takeoff...
• omegant 5y ago
  It goes way beyond checklist stuff. Imagine having an intermediate system in your Tesla, one between fully manual and the autopilot. This system uses the navigation capabilities of the autopilot to draw in the big screen some squares that guide you to your destination without the need to look outside. Something you may find in a videogame. This system is helpfull and easy to use, and allows you to pay attention to more important matters. Well, now imagine getting so used to this system that you forget how to drive without the squares telling you what to do every single moment. So used that if the squares guide you to drive straight to a wall at 100mph you do it without hesitation. This is what supposedly happened in this case. The flight director is there to help you, but you are supposed to know how to fly without it. When you rotate an airliner the initial pitch is around 15 degrees nose up, that way your rate of climb and the optimal climb speed is maintained. They kept the nose almost horizontal, against any natural instinct for a pilot. They almost overrun the runway without rotating, and they barely rotated just enough to be able to keep the flight director centered in their screen. It seems that the speed went beyond the structural limit of the tyres (around 200 kts) and if they didn’t retract the flaps, beyond their structural limit too. And then they proceeded to fly almost scratching the obstacles in their path. Why does something like this happpens? Because in an airline like Emirates actual piloting skills are actively punished!. You are not allowed to fly the plane manually, nor disconect automatic systems if they are available. They expect robot like precission applying procedures, modern airliners log dozens of instruments and have automatic reports when procedure limitation are exceeding (is a big brother like work environment). This may seem a good philosophy, but it actually creates an situation where pilots loose necessary skills, and when computers or procedures fail, as they often do in airplanes, pilots are not able to react properly anymore. I’m sure Emirates will punish the pilots and will set new procedures over the current ones, to try to avoid this kind of situations in the future. They will solve nothing, they will only make it worse. Is a culture of fear and punishment. This also happens in other middle east airlines like Qatar. Airlines in Asia are making this mistake too. In contrast airlines in the US and Europe (except Ryanair and some other British carriers) give pilots much more freedom regarding manual flight, which helps them to keep their skills honed. Hope this gives a different perspective on the problem. The wrong altitude selection is the minor of the problems in this case IMHO. I am an Airline captain with 22 years of experience (737, MD88, A320, A330 and A340) and more than 14k flight hours. Edit, some typos and making a couple of sentences more clear.
• LordFast 5y ago
  Seriously. Did these pilots think they were playing Microsoft Flight Simulator or something?!
• topspin 5y ago
  > I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. Why imagine there is hope of that? Is there some question as to the credibility of the reporting here? If this memo claim were fake I imagine Emirates would deny the report and initiate some lawsuits. The story linked here is based on the reporting[1] of one Gilbert Ott of godsavethepoints.com over five days ago which includes a image of the 'memo' Emirates issued, so someone has actually put their name on this story, including the report about the memo. Blatant dysfunction should not be discounted through false hopes. This airline is clearly operated by incompetents, both in the cockpit and among its management. Someone will doubtless feel compelled to cite some safety record or another; this carries no weight if you cannot eliminate the contribution of aircraft designers and the automation they've provided. And you can't. [1] https://www.godsavethepoints.com/emirates-flight-231-takeoff-incident/ https://www.godsavethepoints.com/emirates-flight-231-takeoff...
  • jacquesm 5y ago
    You'd hope a regulator would turn their wandering eye to this airline, both from a hiring, operations and management perspective. There are errors on all of those.
    • topspin 5y ago
      Emirates is a Flag Carrier for UAE, apparently owned by Dubai's government via 'Investment Corporation of Dubai.' There is, therefore, no meaningful distinction between it and its regulator, so don't hold your breath on that hope either. The FAA will demur; bet the rent money on that. We're talking UAE money here, and that means most of the US Senate is on speed dial. No FAA functionaries will be troubling UAE over this. The only hope one may legitimately cling to is that the problem space is mostly solved by the automation and the autopilot operators occupying the cockpits of these aircraft continue to not interfere with it too much.
      • jacquesm 5y ago
        Airplane manufacturers and regulators being too close is not good, see the MAX MCAS issue, airlines should be completely firewalled from regulators for very obvious reasons. That's pretty bad. Here in NL was have a similar situation where the state is shareholder of KLM/AF leading to all kinds of bizarre decisions in recent times. But at least I'd hope that some people at the regulator would resign rather than avoid doing their jobs when safety is on the line.
• EMM_386 5y ago
  It's unbelievable that the pilot's didn't realize they were doing 215 knots while still ON THE GROUND and only decided to pull back on the yoke once they were nearing the end of the runway. They should have at least seen the end of the runway coming up and wondered why they weren't airborne yet. The ends are colored in amber and red as it gets closer to the end, it should be pretty obvious something is wrong. Pull back and get airborne, you're far past the point you are going to be able to stop. Where's the basic pilotage here? I'm a US CPL holder and there are numerous basic airmanship systems in place to prevent this. For one, you note your acceleration rate and how far down the runway you are. Then you have V1, V2 speeds where you rotate. How you get to this level of incompetence flying a 777 is far beyond my understanding. Pilots are getting far too comfortable flying what the computer is telling them instead of flying the actual aircraft. You don't fly the flight director command bars when they are telling you to stay on the ground and you're doing 215 knots. You ignore them and figure out what went wrong when safely in the air.
  • gambiting 5y ago
    >>Where's the basic pilotage here I think the article was spot on about this - everyone was focused on managing the computers rather than actually flying. I wouldn't be surprised if no one was actually looking out of the window, but instead looking at the screens and wondering why the numbers aren't correct.
  • kayodelycaon 5y ago
    I thought all takeoffs were manual. Is auto-takeoff out of testing already?
    • throwanem 5y ago
      The takeoff isn't directly automated, but there's a system called the "flight director" [1] that provides indicators on the pilot flying's display that correspond with a configured trajectory. In this case, it sounds like the flight director was badly misconfigured and the pilots not only omitted to reconfigure it, but followed the erroneous indication far past any point at which it was remotely reasonable (or remotely safe!) to do so. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_director_(aeronautics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_director_(aeronautics...
• yosito 5y ago
  > What was pilot monitoring doing during all this? Wouldn't there also be a copilot who is double checking this stuff?
  • goodcanadian 5y ago
    There is a pilot and a co-pilot. At any given time in a flight, one will be the "pilot flying" and the other will be the "pilot monitoring." That is exactly the point of the quote: there are two in the cockpit, and one should always be checking what the other is doing.
• harha 5y ago
  Wow this looks like a classic corporate response, though in a place where it may actually affect lives. Let’s not fix the actual issue (not following the proper procedures) but something further down the line which looks like the cause if you have no clue what’s happening.
• nilsbunger 5y ago
  The "black hole effect" is one mitigating factor - if you take off on a moonless night, it is surprisingly disorienting, and can become debilitating. These pilots missed a bunch of very basic things like rotating at V1. Maybe they got totally disoriented and it incapacitated them? Good training is supposed to prevent that. This wasn't a "missed an item on a checklist" story.
  • stereo 5y ago
    We're talking about Dubai, which is probably one of the brightest places in the world at night.
    • kylehotchkiss 5y ago
      It’s a very narrow city on the coast and you take off towards the water. It’ll get dark pretty fast.
      • rurban 5y ago
        If you look at the map, you'll notice that the plane was at 60m altitude in Downtown Dubai, at overspeed (600km/h) with highly lit skyscrapers of 200m left and right of you. Almost another 9/11. You cannot make that up even in desaster movies.
  • t0mas88 5y ago
    The black hole effect applies to visual flight, mostly the landing part. Not accelerating on a runway with runway lights and completely forgetting to look at the basic instruments.
• jbirer 5y ago
  Sounds like a desperate attempt at saving face.
• drited 5y ago
  Sounds like they had their holiday period B team both in the crew that flew the plane and in the department that wrote the memo.