26 ms·

Ask HN: Are there any 4K “dumb” televisions?

436 points by luke2m 5y ago

With news like [1][2], and problems I’ve had in the past, I would like a TV with a modern resolution, but just inputs and a tuner, no “smart” features. Does anything like this exist? [1] https://hackaday.com/2021/11/29/samsung-bricks-smart-tvs/ [2] https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021

gennarro 5y ago
Not many, but this might help if you want to search for solutions like Sceptre: https://helpatmyhome.com/best-non-smart-tv/ https://helpatmyhome.com/best-non-smart-tv/
sam_lowry_ 5y ago
As many people said already in the comments, search for digital signage instead of TV. E.g. https://www.lg.com/us/business/digital-signage https://www.lg.com/us/business/digital-signage
- jeffbee 5y ago
  These do not necessarily have the same video processors as actual TVs from the same manufacturers, so you might end up being disappointed in the picture quality, depending on your application.
  - Matthias247 5y ago
    Right. They are also designed for very different applications. Higher end TVs for consuming movies in a dark room, so black levels are important. On signage peak brightness might be much more important, and black levels or color accuracy might be less so.
dncornholio 5y ago
Just don't connect the TV to the internet
lpapez 5y ago
Cant you just get a smart TV and never connect it to wifi?
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  Can you trust it?
jimjams 5y ago
Just don't connect it to the network or agree to any of the license clickthroughs, it can't do things behind your back then. HDMI and the RF tuner can still work fine.
- fsflover 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28583761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28583761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28045189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28045189
  - jimjams 5y ago
    ... "don't connect it to the network", means don't connect it to the network, via a Roku-router or wlan or whatever. Don't buy one with other networks either, if they exist...
- elsherbini 5y ago
  I cant find a source, but I remember a discussion here on a brand of smart tvs that still phone home by connecting to other nearby smart tvs that are connected to a network, even if you don't connect yours to the network.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    It was Samsung TVs that will automatically connect to any open Wifi nearby to get their ads updated, even if you tell it not to.
    - chubot 5y ago
      Really? Source? Which models? I just bought a Samsung 4K TV a month ago. I didn't connect it to wi-fi or do any setup. I just plugged my computer in. I have not seen any ads. It seems to work fine offline in all respects. If it actually did this I would definitely return the TV. In case it matters it was this Q60A "QLED" 43 inch 4K TV: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-43-class-q60a-series-qled-4k-uhd-smart-tizen-tv/6453192.p?skuId=6453192 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-43-class-q60a-series-ql...
justinlloyd 5y ago
Look in to the hospitality line of NEC, LG & Samsung which costs a little more but are universally dumb. Lots of input options, but none of the smart features or network connectivity unless you actively plug an ethernet cable in to the ethernet port that some of the models have which permit you to control the TV or send video over TCP. I have a 4K Dell 55" which is really a Samsung panel.
alliao 5y ago
my bravia is so dumb it's got a 100Mbps ethernet port, and the USB port is USB 2.0 so the best wifi is bounded by USB2.0! yay. I think they just don't want people stream high bitrate stuff directly
jiveturkey 5y ago
Just don't connect it! LG OLED screens, at least, don't /require/ network connection and aren't yet proactively connecting to any open wifi or have an built-in 4G connection. Far easier to just not use the smart features than try to find a dumb tv.
vulgarbulgar 5y ago
https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/
fartcannon 5y ago
Last year I bought a Proscan 55" 4k dumb TV. Maybe you can find one of them? My review: it's fine.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  What is the "startup time" like? Meaning how long it takes to go from poweroff/standby to displaying the signal.
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    A couple second I guess? There's a blue PROSCAN screen that turns on first. Is that something people worry about? I guess if I was going to watch 30 seconds of TV, waiting 10 seconds would be something I'd consider important.
mtmail 5y ago
In last week's "Ask HN: What’s the best TV to buy?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338 one recommendation was to look for commercial televisions which usually lack the smart features and are build for reliability.
- somerandomqaguy 5y ago
  Commercial TV's are coming more and more with smart capabilities. I know LG commercial displays can be equipped with WebOS and Samsung displays come with Tizen, though I don't know how wide spread they are through their commercial product line ups.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > I know LG commercial displays can be equipped with WebOS It's a real shame to have a TV that runs Linux and can't be used as an X Terminal...
iKnowKungFoo 5y ago
I have a few years old Sony XBR model. I had to factory reset it a few months ago due to it randomly restarting itself after a system update. I just never connected it to the Internet and use an AppleTV and Xbox for streaming and gaming.
chuchurocka 5y ago
Hitachi makes some, I have one and it has been great. Before I found their dumb model I was looking at broadcast monitors which were much more expensive and didn't have TV tuning ability or speakers but checked all of the boxes that I wanted with a screen.
smolder 5y ago
I've got one, but it's not very good build or panel quality, just a random Chinese brand. It was in the first batch of 4k models, before all the bonus money from spyware pushed dumb displays out of the consumer tv segment. Your best bet now is to get an industrial display or find a generic driver board that is compatible with the panel from a smart TV and then DIY a smart TV into a dumb one. On the DIY perks youtube channel, the host builds a water cooled backlight for a 4k panel in order to make an outdoor-capable TV, and he uses one of those generic driver boards for it.
mindslight 5y ago
I was asking myself the same question seeing all the recent TV deals. I came to the conclusion it was best to ignore the deals and look at TVs when I can afford to do some in depth research as to which ones have the least intrusive "smart" functionality (eg quick startup to same hdmi input source, rarely needing to interact with the useless menus, and behaves when given a zero-access wifi network or even better with the wifi module removed). If you're looking for something smaller I'm using a 43 inch 4K monitor, LG 43UD79 / 43MU79, that was around $450. I'm using it as a monitor, but my backup plan was to use it as a TV if I didn't like it as a monitor. It even comes with a simple remote that is better than common TV remotes because it leaves out all the superfluous buttons (its primary up/downs are volume/brightness). They've since discontinued it and the new model is up at $700 though.
ChuckMcM 5y ago
Not that I know of, there are however 4K 'digital signage' displays which are an industrial product. They are the monitors you see in kiosks etc. Be prepared to pay a pretty penny for them however. The last time I checked a 65" digital signage display was roughly 5x the cost of a similarly sized television. Also note they may have an HDMI implementation that is 'cheap' and doesn't implement the CLEC protocols or HDCP so you may have to jump through hoops to drive them from a PC with commercial content.
- badRNG 5y ago
  >The last time I checked a 65" digital signage display was roughly 5x the cost of a similarly sized television. The question then is why would any company pay 5x for a device without smart functionality? Does that mean there's now a market for buying smart TVs, stripping out the "smart" tech, and reselling at, say, a 4x markup?
  - ChuckMcM 5y ago
    Perhaps, the signage market is generally targeted to equipment that needs to be rather durable and live in a wider temperature range. So typically they have better power supplies, steel rather than aluminum frames, and in the case of LED back lights a longer lasting LED (typically by under driving it IIRC). That said, I think there is solid market for "monitors" which are just the display and an industry standard interface. Sometimes you can get a "tunerless" TV which has fewer smarts.
thom 5y ago
I seem to remember that one drawback of trying for a monitor plus soundbar setup (which has tempted me from time to time) was splitting modern HDMI inputs. Can anyone speak to these issues as they stand today (to the extent that I’ve not misremembered)?
- gwbas1c 5y ago
  Most TVs have an ARC (audio return channel) labeled HDMI input which sends the sound back. I connected my smart TV to my receiver via the ARC HDMI port, and it sends sound back to the receiver; and I can select inputs from the receiver from my TV's remote.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  For literally trying to make a dumb TV out of a monitor and sound bar https://www.amazon.com/OREI-HDA-912-Audio-Converter-Extractor/dp/B07BHYXVTY/ https://www.amazon.com/OREI-HDA-912-Audio-Converter-Extracto... If you want actual OTA TV on your dumb TV https://www.amazon.com/ViewTV-ATSC-Digital-Converter-Clear/dp/B00GGVPKKC/ https://www.amazon.com/ViewTV-ATSC-Digital-Converter-Clear/d... If you have many sources consider https://www.amazon.com/Output-Switch-Switcher-Support-Control/dp/B07G34M2G7 https://www.amazon.com/Output-Switch-Switcher-Support-Contro... or getting a receiver instead of all the above (more costly). If you want to make your own smart TV look at the Shield TV with a USB TV Tuner, the extractor is probably still best for the sound bar in that case.
  - thom 5y ago
    These all look good, thanks! I basically just want Chromecast/Apple TV or equivalent in an HDMI port, as high quality as possible with no weird latency issues between video and audio. I don’t mind paying for a good panel, I just don’t like the software and the slow boot times.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      I'd definitely go the Nvidia Shield TV (2019) route, I use one for exactly that. It is a tiny box that runs Android TV (which includes Chromecast functionality plus the ability to run apps local) and even the original 2015 model is still getting updates. For control it comes with a hardware remote or you can use your phone or you can cast to it. Supports 4K HDR10, Dolby Vision, and Dolby Atmos as well as full DRM support for Netflix/Amazon/Hulu/etc allowing it to actually receive the 4k versions (or you can just use the Plex app if that's your thing or VLC for local files). That extractor will passthrough whatever the output is and break out the audio to SPDIF for your soundbar. Overall it's on the more powerful side and has full hardware acceleration so weird latency issues but you'll want to match the audio offset in the Android TV settings to whatever the display latency of your monitor of choice is to get the audio/video timing to perfectly match (supports both positive and negative offsets in case your soundbar has its own latency problems).
iramiller 5y ago
They are not without their drawbacks but you can get an excellent picture quality 4K home theater projector that has none of the ‘smart’ tv features.
- Spivak 5y ago
  The best part is that since they're expensive, niche, and bought mostly by businesses, they will never reach consumer market adoption to the level where adding telemetry and ads makes financial sense.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  +1 for projectors. Some will laugh at getting 4K resolution and then projecting it on a regular white wall, but honestly, you'll get used to it as you project a much larger image than you'd otherwise get with an lcd. Also, there are special paints you can get - or a retractable screen if you feel the need after testing out the projector. Note: if it is a room with windows make sure to have decent curtains. It's not as FC v bright as a LCD screen.
molestrangler 5y ago
You may have to consider a projector.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
I seem to recall hearing that certain Google TV’s could be set to dumb mode? Ah, here it is: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-google-tv-you-can-turn-it-off-for-a-dumb-tv-mode/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-... > The new Google TV is a fine smart TV interface, but when it gets integrated into some TV sets later this year, its best feature might be that you can turn it off. A report from 9to5Google details an upcoming "Basic TV" mode that will be built into Google TV, which turns off just about all the smart TV features. Right now, Google TV is only available in the new Chromecast, but Google TV will be built into upcoming TVs from Sony and TCL. Basic mode means we'll get smart TVs with a "dumb TV" mode. > ... > When the new feature rolls out, you'll be asked to choose between "Basic TV" or "Google TV" at setup. 9to5Google says that with basic mode, "almost everything is stripped, leaving users with just HDMI inputs and Live TV if they have an antenna plugged directly into the TV. Casting support, too, is dropped." The UI notes that you'll be turning off all apps, the Google Assistant, and personalized recommendations.
- 8note 5y ago
  I wouldn't expect that to stop tracking or inserting ads. Those are the key features for Google products
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    How would they do these things if you never give the device wifi access?
    - criddell 5y ago
      Built-in cell modem that can only call home? Also, Amazon and other companies are building out networks of their wifi devices. I assume at some point they will start selling access to other companies. So, even if you decline to set up wifi, the appliance might be able to get online through your neighbor's doorbell.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
salt-thrower 5y ago
For those who don't require 4K, I was able to find a 1080p "dumb" TV from the Insignia brand at Best Buy. All their 4K models are smart though, unfortunately.
29athrowaway 5y ago
You can simply connect them to the internet then disconnect them. Change the WiFi SSID or password id necessary.
- ThatMedicIsASpy 5y ago
  Why connect them in the first place?
  - basch 5y ago
    Firmware updates, changes to post processing, motion processing, fald backlighting software, enhanced gaming features.
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 5y ago
      USB does that too
      - basch 5y ago
        The question was "why connect?" and I gave a reason why you might connect despite not using the smarts.
MightyOwl13 5y ago
Depends a lot on country. I think the US has more options than EU (but I might be wrong...). Framework had a blog post (https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs) about this exact thing and NEC digital signage displays are an option or Iiyama (https://iiyama.com/ https://iiyama.com/) makes 55,60 inch 4K displays that are non smart. I was looking for something similar and it's frustrating to see you can pick up a 65inch Samsung Q90A for about $2500-$3000 but a similarly sized comercial display will cost significantly more and use significantly more power (at least as far as I've seen, I might be wrong on this one). Comercial displays are rated for 16/24 or 24/24 usage, so they should, in theory, last significantly longer. As far as my search went, I ended up going with a Dell U4320Q (43inch monitor) instead. It cost a bit more than the equivalent Samsung Q90A display, but it does have a USB C port with power delivery support, I can keep my desktop and laptop plugged in and it works/looks great. It also doesn't have Smart features, it's just a display. Depending on country you might be able to get some cashback on it and make it even more competitive price wise and the stand + warranty are pretty solid. Hope this helps!
- mrweasel 5y ago
  When I last complained about not being able to buy a dumb TV someone linked me a Romanian electronics site. There where so many option, but non of them are available in Denmark.
- sq_ 5y ago
  Hadn't seen that Framework post; maybe if they manage to be successful in the laptop world long term they can grace us with a TV with the same ideas as the laptops. One can hope, at least...
Apreche 5y ago
One thing people haven't mentioned is that there are some non-smart televisions available that are marketed as extra large gaming monitors. For example, there's the Alienware 55" OLED Gaming Monitor and the ASUS ROG Swift PG65UQ that's 65".
- sethhochberg 5y ago
  Thanks for the tip! This is a great search keyword to keep in mind.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  That's interesting, but it doesn't look like you have many choices at the 55" size unless you're willing to pay double what I paid 4 years ago for my Sony.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    What value would additional choices serve, if it’s just a pane of glass of a fixed size and resolution?
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Downward cost pressure, one presumes.
    - FemmeAndroid 5y ago
      There can still be differences in color gamut, refresh rates, input lag, viewing angle, black uniformity, local dimming, image retention, supported resolutions, SDR/HDR brightness to name a few.
      - floatingatoll 5y ago
        Thanks, that makes sense.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
notananthem 5y ago
Just don't let it connect to the internet. I have a lot of firewall rules to block my TV off, but you can also just literally turn off the features.
- mattnewton 5y ago
  My experience with an LG panel was it slowing down to wait for network requests that would never complete and asking for wifi every time it was turned back on. I just use a projector now; it's a dumber, bigger screen (and as a plus it encourages me to limit screen time to after dark for better picture quality)
jenscow 5y ago
A monitor + external TV tuner (and perhaps a HDMI switch)
vizzier 5y ago
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/gigabyte/aorus-fo48u-oled https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/gigabyte/aorus-fo48u-... - Looking out for tv panels attached to "gaming" monitors might be a route.
michelpp 5y ago
Seems like this would be a good use case for a "TV Honeypot" that would intercept phone-homes, recognize the model, imitate whatever jank rpc is needed to keep the unit happy, and dump all telemetry to /dev/null.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  Imagine if it could replace the ads with pictures of your family, news, inspirational quotes…
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    Get one into your neighborhood switch; and show your own ads to everyone. Local advertisers desperately want someone to hand their money to.
  - mlok 5y ago
    Imagine if (when ?) the AI chip in each TV in the near future could smartmix© ads with pictures of your family, news, inspirational quotes...
    - oblio 5y ago
      Even better, product placement. Your 5 year old is now magically holding BrandNewKoolAid™ instead of the original Coke. You grandpa has a fishing rod from BobsFishingEquipment®.
      - Spivak 5y ago
        You don't need AI, just social media and reviews. It's been tried. Crazy effective but also feels creepy despite it just being a way to surface reviews and ratings from people you know on FB or Google+.
      - bentcorner 5y ago
        Oh god - there's the recent posts I've seen about people losing their social media accounts and then having deepfakes of themselves posting about BTC. But what happens when the platforms get into it themselves? Today using a loved one's image in a deepfake advertisement might seem invasive and wrong. But I wonder in the future if this would be seen as something acceptable. I'm sure somewhere there's a social media site that is carefully constructing their T&C's to allow them to do this if they so wish.
haunter 5y ago
4K monitors. You need a soundbar though or some kind of audio setup + remote. Also no built-in tuner or such but I assume you get a set top box from your service provider or use a streaming device (Apple TV, Fire stick etc.) 4K OLED https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=7 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=7 4K IPS https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=2 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=2 4K VA https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=4 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=384002160&P=4 4K 55" or bigger monitors (there aren't many choices) https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#P=2,7,4&r=384002160&F=1397000000,1651000000 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#P=2,7,4&r=3840021... The 4K 55" OLED Alienware has speaker but I doubt that it is any good https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming-monitor-aw5520qf/apd/210-auds/monitors-monitor-accessories https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming... (actually comes with remote too) Linus made a video of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3oqktdx2a8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3oqktdx2a8 Last but not least you can go even higher resolution than 4K but these are all IPS only and they are not bigger than 34" https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=768004320,576002160,512002880,512002160,409602160,384002560 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monitor/#r=768004320,57600...
- bmitc 5y ago
  4K OLED monitors are insanely expensive. You can get an LG 65" OLED TV for $1,800. The OLED computer monitors I have seen start at $4,000.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    AW5520QF (55" 120Hz) is on sale for $2500. That's getting down to about double the cost.
  - matja 5y ago
    A Gigabyte FO48U (48" OLED, same LG panel as the C1) goes for around $1500
    - sliken 5y ago
lvl100 5y ago
I recently opted for Sony Google TV because at least I can trace where my stuff is going with Google. Also it’s hard to find a capable 4K120Hz devices so you’re pretty much stuck with in-device apps to get the best quality.
pedrocr 5y ago
4K dumb projectors are easy to find. They're not for every room but can give you a great home cinema result while still working for normal TV and games.
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  Projectors are still a fairly poor substitute for a TV in the same price range, though. Every time I look at them, I'm not happy with the trade offs even if they've been getting better. Most recently it was a combination of price, brightness (HDR) and framerate (VFR, 120Hz).
  - pedrocr 5y ago
    It depends on what you value. For us it was image size, low noise and good color to get a great cinema experience at night. We couldn't get the same at any reasonable TV price and we also hid it really well so that when it's not on it's just an empty white wall and the room doesn't seem to have a TV at all. It's definitely a tradeoff and not for everyone.
hindsightbias 5y ago
My Sony Bravia is just a couple years old and I just turned off the wifi and watch broadcast and drive it with a mac mini. I suppose newer systems would use the LAN to update drivers and take over smart functions. If in the US, go by Best Buy and ask them for the remote for the display tv you like and see that it lets you kill internet function. Also that there aren't any always-on apps (or if there are, the menus let you disable them).
jarcane 5y ago
I don't buy TVs anymore, I buy monitors. There's no reason to own a television with a shitty computer built-in, when I can just buy a screen and plug it into my actually good computer. Right now I have a 27" ThinkVision display and a pair of studio monitors, with both laptop and Switch connected to it. Media comes over the computer (who even buys cable in 2021 anyway?), audio patches into the display over USB-C/HDMI and out to the speakers. I'm moving soon and I'll probably spring for a 30+" 4K for the living room at some point, and look into a receiver and theatre speakers but honestly I don't see the point. You do pay a bit more for the display-per-inch, but the reason those "4K smart TVs" are so cheap is all the adware money, so they're only "cheap" in the way that Facebook is "free".
- ConanRus 5y ago
  good luck finding 65" - 85" monitor
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
So if you just use the HDMI port, does the smarttv know what is going through the HDMI port? A smart tv with no internet connection that only uses its HDMI ports is a dumb tv, isn't it?
- softfalcon 5y ago
  Yeah, that works for several models. I do it with my slightly older Samsung to make it dumb. Unfortunately, many manufacturers are now forcing you to stay connected to WiFi to use the TV. “TV phone home!”
Raed667 5y ago
Telefunken as brand is a safe bet if you can find in stores close to you. They are mostly built in Turkey now, but they are pretty decent and don't include bloatware
yupper32 5y ago
Why don't people like their Smart TVs? I've had a 4k smart TV for years and love it. Being able to stream without needing my phone is great. It seems ironic that people are complaining about smart TV ads while the [2] link in the OP has an absolutely MASSIVE video ad that takes up 2/3s of the screen. And it's not like you're not being tracked when you stream from a Roku stick / Chromecast. Edit: I have a 4k Samsung that isn't laggy and in general is a very good experience.
- DiabloD3 5y ago
  Always-on spyware that can brick your TV at any moment due to discontinued services you didn't consent. None of this hardware is useful for 90+% of TV purchasers, they're plugging it into an existing device and never using any self-hosted features, so it is just an added cost that only benefits advertisers and state sponsored actors.
- ptmcc 5y ago
  Many/most of the built-in interfaces of smart TVs are slow, buggy, and ad/tracker-ridden and have a limited upgrade path, if any. Since there are effectively no dumb TVs on the market anymore, I bought a fancy Sony TV with AndroidTV built-in, hoping that'd it'd be decent enough to use out of the box. Nope. Slow, laggy, and some of the big name streaming apps from the app store just plain don't work. Also when the TV updated itself it broke HDMI-CEC for a good couple months before another update fixed it. Screw that. Bought an AppleTV and it's been great. Unplugged the SmartTV from the network and treat it as a dumb TV now. Yes I know AppleTV is tracking me, too, but at least the user experience is great with no ads.
  - yupper32 5y ago
    > Many/most of the built-in interfaces of smart TVs are slow, buggy, and ad/tracker-ridden and have a limited upgrade path, if any. And many of the cheap dumb TVs have shitty audio and often break or burn in after short enough periods of time. If you buy a cheap smart TV I don't expect it to be a great experience, just like I don't expect a cheap dumb TV to provide a good experience. With smart or dumb TVs, you get what you pay for like anything else. I've had a mid-range Samsung for years without issue.
kccqzy 5y ago
Consider Sceptre: https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
jzig 5y ago
Never buy Samsung products.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ramesh31 5y ago
No, they no longer exist. TV manufacturers have correctly determined that data mining is actually far more profitable than just selling panels. It's gone from smart TVs being a value added feature to being something that subsidizes the cost of the display itself to the consumer through advertising. There's a huge race now to win the smart TV OS market that is driving companies like Roku to massive valuations based on that.
agentdrtran 5y ago
You can disable Smart TV telemetry though something like pihole/nextdns
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  If they phone home using a dedicated IP, then no, that won't disable telemetry.
  - nottorp 5y ago
    If there's a hardcoded IP addy you just blackhole it through the firewall on said pihole?
hourislate 5y ago
Samsung QB65R 65 inch 4K UHD LED Commercial Signage Display https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07V9ZYV7Q?psc=1&th=1&linkCode=gs2&tag=pointerclic06-20 https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07V9ZYV7Q?psc=1&th=1&linkCode=gs2&... Here are a couple of past threads on the topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968
austinshea 5y ago
Sceptre is fantastic for this. e.g. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-55-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HDR-U550CV-U/46784939 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-55-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HD... Zero smart features, and all modern capabilities. It's also a TV, as opposed to a computer monitor, so it has the expected TV speakers and ports.
- dncornholio 5y ago
  I could not find a product description. Stopped scrolling when I reached the related products and could not find a hyperlink in the sidebar. Is this just me stuck in old ways?
  - shoeffner 5y ago
    It's below the related and recommended products.
  - austinshea 5y ago
    This will provide more significant detail: https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm... (e.g. https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U557CV-UMRB-55-4K-UHD-TV-product1428category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U557CV-UMRB-55-4K-UHD-T...)
- memco 5y ago
  I recently purchased one of the Sceptre TVs and overall am happy with it. The only drawback I found was the sound is not great: it is tinny and muddled (possibly because it's wall-mounted). I'm planning to buy some external speakers.
  - syntheticnature 5y ago
    Yes, I have a 4K Sceptre purchased for a song, and the sound isn't great (and HDMI-CEC doesn't work as reliably as I'd like to bring up the soundbar on HDMI-ARC, etc.)... ...but it doesn't have any of the smart TV BS. Still takes too long to power on, IMO.
cmckn 5y ago
Look, I think it’s a legitimate question, and I’m not thrilled about most “smart” TV operating systems. But why pigeonhole your search like this? You will almost certainly end up with a worse actual display, which is what you’re spending the money on in the first place. Just buy a nice panel and disable as much of the smarts as you can—-it’ll be fine. Android TV is the best option out there, in my opinion; and it’s what Sony’s run (the best panels out there). If you buy something marketed as a monitor, it will have no (or terrible) audio, and you will struggle to find something in the >=65” class. I think it’s a fine option for a spare TV, but it doesn’t cut it for the living room. I get why HN hates smart TV’s, but unfortunately the ship has sailed. I’d rather have a nice TV than be an activist, gotta choose your battles.
- mattnewton 5y ago
  I put a premium on my time to find and disable all the features I don't want, (especially with reports of things like the Samsung TVs connecting to any open wifi without being configured to do so), so I don't mind spending extra to avoid this. If I don't vote with my wallet how can I hope to be able to buy what I want in the future?
- cortesoft 5y ago
  Smart TVs also take a lot longer to start up than dumb ones.
  - cmckn 5y ago
    I’ve seen what you’re describing, but it’s far from universal. Most TV’s (like monitors) primarily exist in a standby mode and light up within a second or two, especially at the upper end of the market.
- jstanley 5y ago
  For some people, a TV that doesn't actively view its owner as an adversary is a "nicer TV" than one that does.
  - cmckn 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
search for "hospitality displays"
the_duke 5y ago
Swedx [1] has really nice, affordable products. I've bought about 5 of them over the last few years. All of their screens come in a "TV version" with a tuner, and a "monitor version" without one, but are otherwise identical. The speakers are pretty crappy, but that's to be expected. (European company, so not sure where they ship to outside the EU) [1] https://www.swedx.com https://www.swedx.com
- gnud 5y ago
  Second this. I have a SwedX FHD or UHD or something screen, not 4K. The remote is simple. The menus are simple. Turning it on could be quicker, but is not horrible. The sound is not great, but functional. It has digital audio out, so I use an external amp and speakers. The price is quite nice. The lack of any "smart" features even nicer.
justizin 5y ago
There are, and they are more expensive. I gave in a while back and started buying "Toshiba Fire TV" because it costs about half as much as a comparable model that does not advertise to me. It's a tradeoff I'm only moderately OK with.
ff317 5y ago
Sceptre has been my favorite. They're not the most-premium brand, but I've been buying them for years for home TVs and they're decent. They do make Android TV models, but they also continue to make non-smart models with 4K and other basic AV bells and whistles: https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
sorum 5y ago
If you use a regular (smart) TV just as a HDMI-out and watch everything through a connected streaming player e.g Apple TV, Chromecast, Roku...how many of these problems could one avoid?
duxup 5y ago
I just never use any of the smart features...
tombert 5y ago
It's a kind of hackey way of handling this, but what I do is open up the TVs and removing whatever components are required for the WiFi to work. Sometimes you can just remove the network card easily, but usually the easiest thing to do is find and break the antenna. It's inelegant, and of course the smart features are still there, but it at least reduces or eliminates the tracking crap.
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  I removed the WiFi card from my LG TV before I first turned it on, it's been great since. Apparently some TVs are bad at nagging about missing the hardware, so another suggestion would be to add a load or something to the antenna. I forgot what that's called, and at the time, couldn't really find any details online.
  - stan_rogers 5y ago
    It's literally called a dummy load - to the 'lectrics, it acts like an antenna, but it doesn't radiate or receive.
  - myself248 5y ago
    "dummy load", specifically "50 ohm dummy load", because that's the standard impedance of most antennae. (Oddly enough, the TV antenna is engineered for a 75-ohm impedance, but that's beside the point.) However, even dummy loads radiate a little bit. It's common to test handheld radios a few feet from each other with dummy loads screwed onto the antenna ports, because when you've got 115dB of link margin and your dummy loads are only eating 50dB on each end, that's still plenty!
rbanffy 5y ago
You may be able to disable non-GDPR TVs by telling whoever is in the support phone line that you are a citizen of an EU country (lying may work) and that you don't agree with any such abuse of your private information. I also strongly suggest voiding the warranty and disconnecting the wi-fi antenna. That's usually easy. Dell has a 43" 4K monitor that, with a soundbar, can probably be a reasonable TV, but it lacks a tuner. It's, however, 3x as expensive as an average Smart TV from a rent-a-brand like JVC. Mine (5 yo, FHD) has an ethernet jack but all it ever did was getting an IP address from the DHCP server and nothing else, ever. There hasn't been any traffic for a month or so, before I just disconnected it and reused the cable for a small cluster.
twobitshifter 5y ago
Is anyone just opting for a projector instead? How does that work It is a bit ridiculous that TVs have to be a computer with internet access to sell nowadays, but that’s coming to just about every household appliance.
- hasmanean 5y ago
  Projector + HDHomeRun. Amazing. It’s like having a 96” TV for under 800$ Cad.
- isaacimagine 5y ago
  We got an EPSON 1060 projector, and throw it up on a large blank wall about 20 feet diagonal. 4x4 times bigger than our old TV, bright enough to move it down from the default setting. Has two HDMI ports so might want to get a box to add some more; need to get a good soundbar (built-in projector speakers are abysmal). Not sure I would buy it again, but sure can't live without it.
- acomjean 5y ago
  I have a older projector which I bought used some years ago. It was much bigger than expected (you can't tell the size from the image of it..) https://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-UD8350U.htm https://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-UD8350U.htm Its 6500 lumens DLP and has 2 bulbs. DLP tech is kinda neat (Its literally a chip with flippable mirrors). but modern projectors are usually laser or led based. New ones have gotten brighter for less money too. I've used it day to day initially and now mainly to project movies. It does draw a lot of power and it does get warm. They're really best at night or in a dark room and with a proper screen. Basically went back to an flat panel tv for TV watching. I also ended up getting a HDMI/ audio breakout box, because sometimes we used an appleTV or Roku with it and those don't have audio out and my projector lacks it. The projector central site I found as a decent source of information, you can even enter a model and see how big it will project. https://www.projectorcentral.com https://www.projectorcentral.com
bo1024 5y ago
Summing up the main options and linking to some comments that mentioned them: * extra-large gaming monitors, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383077 * Sceptre brand TVs (they can be purchased from Walmart) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29383298 * Projectors maybe, but 4k projectors are very expensive. (On the other hand, 1080p projectors look great in my opinion.) * Most big brands such as LG, Samsung, etc. have "commercial displays" or "digital signage" that are dumb or at least have fewer problematic features. One kind you'll see is marketed for putting in hotel or hospital rooms. Another kind is marketed for displaying at e.g. a bar/restaurant, building lobby, etc.
- deeblering4 5y ago
  Came here to suggest projectors. I personally prefer my 1080p projector on a 100" fixed screen over a 50" 4k. When looking at projectors pay attention to the warranty period, and think about throw distance/placement.
- cgriswald 5y ago
  Projectors require dark rooms; the less dark it is, the less contrast you'll see. I've got a 1080p projector on a wall at 100" and it looks fantastic. But it's in my bedroom and I use it only at night. I imagine for most people's living rooms, especially for daytime viewing, a projector won't work.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    Most consumer projectors are built for home-cinema settings and don't fair well in normal light. Projectors for commercial applications like meetings or trade shows can put out much more light, at much greater cost.
  - bo1024 5y ago
    I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison. A projector will have problem with direct sunlight on the screen, but so will a TV. I've found projectors okay in a reasonably bright room, depending what's on screen.
wodenokoto 5y ago
Iron cast TV aims at exactly this market. In my recollection HN wasn’t impressed when they hit the front page https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/ https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/ https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/ https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/
- dddddddan 5y ago
  Doesn't look like you can actually purchase anything from them yet.
newhotelowner 5y ago
You can buy a hospitality/healthcare TVs. They are quite a bit expensive and harder to find. I buy directly from LG. New latest one comes with an Ethernet port. If you connect to internet will communicate with the mothership. I had extra that I hooked up to the internet and can see pining lg.com everyday after midnight.
chewmieser 5y ago
There's a lot of info already in here but I just wanted to mention that TVs specifically for "Commercial" or "Signage" tend to not screw around with all that nonsense. You will absolutely pay a premium for that though.
14 5y ago
More important than resolution would be the type of panel the tv had. A good panel will change the way the picture looks dramatically. High quality panels the image will look like it floats off the screen.
dangerboysteve 5y ago
why not just leave the tv off the network?
deeblering4 5y ago
Worth considering a projector, most of them are still "dumb". A model with decent brightness and a good fixed screen you can have a true theater at home for similar price to a higher end TV.
jitix 5y ago
I use a TCL 6 series and never connected it to the internet. It's pretty dumb. I don't think it can do anything beyond whats possible with the inbuilt Roku software. And it can't dial back home or receive commands because no internet access.
cronix 5y ago
All TV's are dumb tv's if you only use them as an external display/monitor and don't connect them to the net. I have a dedicated computer for a media center and just use HDMI1 input on the TV. Never enter menus. Never update the OS. Never agree to anything. Never let the TV "phone home." Never set up wifi. Never connect a CAT5 to it. Set the input using the remote and forget it. Treat it as a dumb monitor. Computer is connected to the net, TV is not and has no way to access it.
- KETpXDDzR 5y ago
  My Vizio TV's settings can only be changed with a phone app. It comes with a regular remote, but there's no button for entering the settings menu. For the app to work, it requires to be in the same WiFi. I dodged the bullet by setting up a restricted WiFi (no internet), but that shows how TV manufacturers try to force you in connecting your TV to the Internet.
  - Arrath 5y ago
    Oh wow. That is a new low.
  - jonnycoder 5y ago
    How old is your Vizio? All modern Vizio tvs in the past 6 years have a remote with a Menu button. And they ask for accepting Privacy Policy before you can connect to wifi. You can very easily avoid connecting a Vizio to a network and just use it as a dumb tv.
    - terinjokes 5y ago
      I have a 2016 model Vizio that came with a very simple remote without a menu button, expecting you to use a mobile app for all settings. They made a more complete remote available 18 months later as a separate purchase. If you didn't buy the remote you could get softlocked not being able to navigate away from the Smartcast channel. While the remote does have a menu button, many settings continue to be available only via the mobile app.
    - 5y ago
gameswithgo 5y ago
One workaround is to just never set up wifi on the tv, then they really can't do anything. That is what I've done at home.
jancsika 5y ago
How about the shitty Sceptre specials from Walmart? https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-50-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-U515CV-U/44829924 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-50-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-U5... > Let's you view your pictures as a slideshow or listen to your favorite music via the USB port. Just insert your flash drive into the USB port for the ultimate entertainment. I'm pretty sure this is the one I have. But even if it's not, the fact they're advertising playing music via USB flash as the "ultimate entertainment" tells me this is not a smart tv. Enjoy. Edit: Oops, looks like it's out of stock. But you can probably find others if you just look for the shittiest 4k you can find. (You'll probably need to wait a bit as black friday probably annihilated the stock in this class of dumb tv.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Eric_WVGG 5y ago
anyone remember the XMBC project from twenty years ago? Rooting Xboxes and replacing the OS with a slick custom media player OS? I find it a little remarkable that there isn't a similar "scene" built around lobotomizing smart TVs. The desire is obviously there, and surely rooting Android isn't terribly hard. The OS's for smart TVs are barely maintained.
taylodl 5y ago
I have an LG NanoCell. It has "smart" features, but you don't have to set any of it up and it doesn't nag you to do so. It runs WebOS because that's how it runs the UI for the remote, which you need to change inputs. Yeah, it has a bunch of other whiz-bang features but like I said, I don't have any of that setup. I'm happy that it's content to let me use it as a dumb TV and stay out of my way.
squarefoot 5y ago
For users in the US, Sceptre.com has a good catalog of "dumb" TVs; unfortunately it seems we don't have anything similar in the EU. Look also for used signage monitors; they're built for heavy work, from 18/7 to 24/7, and used ones would last more than new consumer TVs anyway. Be aware however that some of them have already been plagued by Android and other "smart" features. Samsung has however some smart models using the Tizen OS, which is Linux based and potentially more open to hacking if compared to Android.
transpute 5y ago
Recent thread (~300 comments) on open-source firmware for smart TVs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29338658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29338658
m-p-3 5y ago
I keep mine disconnected from WiFi, and I connect it to Ethernet maybe once a year just to see if there's a firmware update, then I disconnect it. I have an Ethernet to WiFi bridge that is already configured on my wireless network, so I don't need to pull an Ethernet cable all the way, and the TV never knows the network passphrase.
unixhero 5y ago
Yes, Signage. I for one will stay on Smart screens, but never another Samsung again.
nfoz 5y ago
Yes, my TV is an LG 55" 4k dumb tv, and I love it. [1] As I posted in another thread [2] a few days ago: In Canada, LG's Business site has tvs branded as "Commercial Lite" that are all dumb, and work great. I have a 55" 4k and I enjoy its simple features and minimal remote-control. The only downsides IMO are that it only has two HDMI inputs and it doesn't do HDR. But for $1000 CAD four years ago, I'm still happy with it! I bought mine from CanadaComputers in-store. I don't know if it's as easy to get one nowadays, and I don't know if/how they sell them in the US. [1] https://www.lg.com/ca_en/business/commercial-lite https://www.lg.com/ca_en/business/commercial-lite [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343338
mongol 5y ago
Alternatively, are there any secret menu options that can make a smart TV dumb? My TV has advanced service menus that I never explored fully.
seqizz 5y ago
Stuff is scary. I feel like at some point we'll ask same question but for HDMI etc cables..
- coldacid 5y ago
  You should be asking that about the cables already.
fxtentacle 5y ago
Here's a list of LG 4K OLED TV models that professionals use for color grading, 10 bit HDR movie work, etc.: https://www.richardlackey.com/low-budget-davinci-resolve-monitoring-video-color-management-lg-oled/#4K_Output_-_65%E2%80%B3_2021_LG_C1_OLED_TV https://www.richardlackey.com/low-budget-davinci-resolve-mon... You can put those into a special HDMI dumb screen mode using the service remote.
Grustaf 5y ago
I'm considering buying a projector for this reason, and because I don't want a tuner.
guidedlight 5y ago
Modern Sony Bravia TV’s ask whether you want a “Basic TV” or a “Google TV” when you first set them up.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  It's Google TV either way. The setting is for whether you want to neuter any sort of functionality involving the network or not. That doesn't mean the TV isn't still reporting your viewing habits back to them; it's still running Android, still has a network connection. Hilariously, they allow you to go back to "smart" Google TV with a click of a button, but going to 'basic' mode requires a full reset. Oh, and they're petulant about you disabling "smart" functions; you lose chromecast, even though there's no technical reason for it. Probably because it's the only actually useful feature people want if they have an external streaming box.
  - DiabloD3 5y ago
    Chromecast has to be negotiated through the Google cloud service, since Google designed this from day one to lock Chromecast down. Chromecast is largely an anti-feature given how Google designed it to be lock-in. What's stupid is Android TV means I can run any app I want, and they can't stop me, so Chromecast ends up being a kind of idiotic solution that never quite finished its search of a problem. As in, I can use Steam Link or Moonlight to become a thin client of a real computer, I can Plex my entire (legal) library, or use any cloud service natively from the device. All the things I ever really wanted to Chromecast felt like it was a third class citizen compared to the Android TV experience; and I just mean the purely playback part of it, not the client UI part (which Chromecast doesn't, and isn't meant to, have).
JanMa 5y ago
There's a German manufacturer called Medion [0] who offers some "dumb" TVs without any smart features. Not sure if you can buy their products in the US though [0]: https://www.medion.com https://www.medion.com
glial 5y ago
I have a dirt-cheap TCL 43S425 and have never plugged it into the internet. Works great.
WaitWaitWha 5y ago
Try Sceptre 65" 4K UHD LED TV, or Samsung QB65R. I have started to see first industrial then consumer devices with embedded SIM cards towards the end of 2000. They were soldered in, now mostly socketed. To access them, the device had to be disassembled, and connect SPI header. No average consumer will think to or able to disable or avoid using that.
bigtex 5y ago
I bought this commercial LED TV from Samsung that I thought was dumb, https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1573435-REG/samsung_lh43bethlgfxgo_bet_h_series_43_crystal.html https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1573435-REG/samsung_l... but it seems it has the same OS as other TV's. However it starts up real fast and is not connected to the internet at all. A menu across the bottom appears for a few seconds at startup but then goes away.
UI_at_80x24 5y ago
Your best choice is a PC monitor. It'll cost ALOT more, but it'll also be higher spec, and perform better. Another option is a projector.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Dell's new 32" 8K monitor looks really nice, if I had an extra $3,750 lying around.
sc90 5y ago
What parts can you modify/remove to make a Smart TV dumb? i.e. WiFi card
- duderific 5y ago
  I posted above - if you have an LG tv it's pretty straightforward to disconnect the Wifi Module - instructions are here: https://www.theraffon.net/spookcentral/tcp/2019/07/10/lg-smart-tv-unknown-device-is-disconnected-fix https://www.theraffon.net/spookcentral/tcp/2019/07/10/lg-sma... I'm not the most technical guy in the world and I was able to do it pretty easily, took about 30 minutes.
zaychikk 5y ago
I like using an ultra-short throw projector onto a nice big projector screen. You can get whatever resolution you'd like with a super big screen size. They're pretty expensive though [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Theatre-Projector-Lumens-Soundbar-Installation/dp/B099JCJZJK?qsid=130-0690657-7813411 https://www.amazon.com/Theatre-Projector-Lumens-Soundbar-Ins...
tareqak 5y ago
The last time this topic was posted someone posted this link about advertising displays that are 4K with inputs and tuner and no "smart" features: https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays#1 https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays#1 .
- dhosek 5y ago
  Only $10K for a 55" display. Hmm
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Walmart sells 4K RCA dumb TVs. The UI is slow and clunky but I rarely have reason to use the UI for anything. It has no apps and doesn't connect to anything other than video and audio sources. The picture quality looks fine to me but I'm not all that particular about such things. The audio is passable but you'll probably want a receiver or a sound bar. There is a USB port but it doesn't appear to do anything. You can't play videos or anything from USB. It's about as dumb as you can get these days.
mandelbrot 5y ago
The best Smart TV alternative I've seen so far is probably this 55" gaming monitor from Philips [1]. The previous model (558M1RY) could be also an option if you don't care about HDMI 2.1. At least on paper it ticks a lot of boxes, but there are not many reviews online and it might not be easy to get your hands on one. [1] https://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/559M1RYV_27/momentum-4k-hdr-display-with-ambiglow https://www.usa.philips.com/c-p/559M1RYV_27/momentum-4k-hdr-...
zyemuzu 5y ago
I didn't see this mentioned so apologies if it has, but the latest version of Google TV has a 'dumb' mode that has no external services as an option on first setup. There are TVs releasing with Google TV (Android 12) soon.
Mizza 5y ago
I looked and couldn't find any. If anybody feels like making a trip to Shenzen, I think there's a huge (well, Framework-big) market for high-quality dumb TVs and other devices.
kazinator 5y ago
Smart TV's are pretty silly; why would I install all my apps and logins on something attached to wall in one place? Smack in the middle of the age of mobile computing? You can put your streaming box into your pocket and take it anywhere where there is a HDMI panel. For instance, when there is no pandemic, you can take it to a hotel room in another country. Depending on geographic restrictions, you can view all your regular content. One thing that is very important to me is that my livingroom streaming box has its own audio out. Bluetooth would be okay; in my case, I use a 1/8" jack: even better. That goes straight to a stereo amp. What this lets me do is turn off the TV while listening to audio-only material, like music. The streaming box doesn't care that the TV is off; it keeps streaming audio to the speakers. Once I introduced this practice, my wife takes advantage of it all the time, to play music for the kids without the distracting screen. Can smart TV's do this at all? Completely power down everything related to the screen, but keep audio going?
peanut_worm 5y ago
Look for TVs using the keywords “signage” and “commercial” and you’ll have better luck. They are notably more expensive than smart TVs since they can’t sell your data.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Digital Signage. https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays#1 https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays#1 https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/ https://www.lg.com/us/business/digital-signage https://www.lg.com/us/business/digital-signage
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Even digital signage is becoming increasingly "smart", although perhaps not in a way that HN would object to. Most of them these days have the ability to display videos and stills from attached storage devices, or stream content from a network address.
LeoPanthera 5y ago
Do you object to smartness, or to ads in your TV? RTings maintains a list of smart TVs that are completely ad-free: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/ads-in-smart-tv https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/ads-in-smart-tv
- thesuitonym 5y ago
  Thank you for this. It doesn't make much sense to say I don't want a smart TV and then buy a separate device that's just going to show ads anyway.
willcipriano 5y ago
I have the Hisense 65U8G, it's not a dumb TV, but you don't have to hook it up to the internet and it has a physical switch to turn off the microphone. Otherwise according to my research it's about the best TV you can get for around $1000, or at least it was this summer.
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cylinder714 5y ago
For the USAnians, make very sure to buy a TV with a "NextGen TV" (ATSC 3.0) tuner. Actual 4K over-the-air broadcasts are rolling out across the U.S. now, and this industry website lists current and future markets: https://www.watchnextgentv.com/ https://www.watchnextgentv.com/
brundolf 5y ago
Given the number of people in this thread who care about this stuff: does anyone have firsthand experience with the LG C1 when it comes to privacy, ads, dark patterns, forcing a WiFi connection, etc? Been eyeing it as one of the better displays available right now Fwiw I don't mind on-screen menus for even basic functions like some people seem to; I just don't want it doing anything nefarious
deleted 5y ago
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mindzspace 5y ago
Bought 55" Sceptre about 2 years ago, still works extremely well. Sceptre was the only "dumb" tv maker that I could find https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm.... Some outdoor tv makers provide some but not a decent indoor viewing experience. Downside with Sceptre is their stock on the website is out at the moment. I've seen Walmart's occasionally carry them dependent on size your looking for in stores just depends on what part of country your in just keep your eyes out. Buyer beware though, you will want to pickup a sound bar/ set of speakers as their built in ones are tinny , but is usable. Not going to mention the other options as appears comments have covered them, good luck
myself248 5y ago
One approach is to buy a smart TV and remove the controller board. Get a new control board (sometimes called a scaler, since that's its main function) with only the functions you need. These are available mostly on aliexpress, if you punch in the display panel part number and the word "board". Expect to pay about $90-150 for a 4k board. This isn't the best option, and it's a giant pain in the ass, but it's very effective.
mindzspace 5y ago
I bought a 55" Sceptre 4k "dumb" TV about 2 years ago still works great, bought it directly from manufacturer website. Only manufacturer I could find making them other than some outdoor tvs (not recommended for indoor viewing use). Monitors could be viable but pricing goes up steeply with size of course. Downside with Sceptre is their website is out of stock at moment, I've heard that Walmart in some areas carries them occasionally on their website / in stores dependent on what part of country your in, just gotta keep looking. Buyer beware though if you get one, you will want to pickup a set of speakers or sound system as speakers are usable but tinny.
somenewaccount1 5y ago
Yes, expensive but indeed dumb commercial displays for offices.
cat_plus_plus 5y ago
Dumb TVs would cost more because availability of smart functionality earns manufacturer subsidizes from various streaming services while the cost of extra hardware is really low (you can get streaming sticks for under $50). Just don't connect to network and enjoy getting a nicer TV for your money. Also on Android-based TVs you can disable any unwanted apps through ADB or install a privacy-enhancing firewall, so that's one middle option.
undersuit 5y ago
I have a NEC(now Sharp-NEC) C651Q. Other than not letting me stick the newest of Raspberry Pi Compute Module inside it and not supporting HDMI ARC it's a wonderful display.
DarthNebo 5y ago
Ironcast TV is probably the closest thing https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iron-cast-tv/your-next-tv-without-the-tv https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iron-cast-tv/your-next-...
omegared8 5y ago
I've had this same thought. Dumb thought...DD-WRT for TVs?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
3guk 5y ago
One thing that I end up relying on fairly often as part of my day job is Hotel Mode - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Category:Hotel_Mode https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Category:Hotel_Mode - most likely it will be of use to a lot of you who just want to lock the set to one particular input and have it function as a dumb monitor. Give me a shout if anyone needs a hand accessing it - or wants to know what some of the set specific features are.
da39a3ee 5y ago
What’s the difference between a “TV” and a “monitor”?
slantaclaus 5y ago
Yes, I got one but it’s a commercial grade weather proof TV sunbritetv.com
jum4 5y ago
https://nogis.at/ https://nogis.at/
alkonaut 5y ago
This question comes up again and again and the sad answer is still: Buy the best TV for the money (which will be smart), then don’t connect it to the internet. It will be better and so much cheaper than trying to get a dumb TV that you could get a new one if - against all odds - its dormant smart features become an issue. And you’ll likely have money to spare. Sure, if you are paranoid you can’t be sure it doesn’t connect to open Wi-Fi or even contains it’s own radio hardware - but let’s face it, so could a “dumb” screen. If you are extremely cautious you can likely disable radio hardware via hidden service menus or worst case physically. Computer screens or commercial screens sadly don’t offer the processing you want for broadcast TV (Which these days is a lot a about upscaling and smoothing poor video). If you watch high quality streaming you’ll want the latest HDR standards. So your best bet for a dumb tv is a smart one without internet and just ignore that it connects to the neighbors phone via BT, shows an ad (that it shipped with), or pesters you about letting it connect to the internet.
brokenmachine 5y ago
I was getting sick of my TV nagging about a firmware update that I didn't want to do, so I used Access Restrictions on my router to block it from accessing anything outside my LAN. That was a good solution for me because I can still use the inbuilt apps for playing local media from my NAS, but no possibility of firmware "upgrades", ads or firmware "upgrades" that include ads.
pketh 5y ago
can't you just not connect the tv to wifi when you set it up? It'll still have the useless UI but at least it won't be able to spy on you

squiffsquiff 5y ago

You know that some devices essentially "require" network connectivity for initial setup? E.g. https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/tv/smart-tv-set-up-without-internet-or-smart-phone/td-p/2331626 https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/tv/smart-tv-set-up-witho...

rapsey 5y ago
So give it a network connection for initial setup then take it away?
- squiffsquiff 5y ago
  So you'll still have all the adverts, they just don't update?
  - flatiron 5y ago
    I had to do that. My Samsung couldn’t leave “demo mode” or whatever without going online first and would restart itself every hour. I just let it register and blocked it from coming out my router. It stays quiet like that. I believe removing the wifi showed some nag when booting that I had to deal with. Real scummy stuff.
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    Annoying, but at least it isn't feeding your information in to the weird ad-driven panopticon (we'll leave that to the content providers!)
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > they just don't update? That's a cursed scenario...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Buy it from a place with free returns. Then if it insists on showing cached ads after the network is pulled (or any other undesirable behavior), just return it. This won't help you find a better model, but it will save you from needing to research these obscure details in too much depth. . o O ( I wonder if some hostile antifeatures go away if you buy a TV in the US but then activate it from an EU IP address ).
  - danudey 5y ago
    Run it through pihole to block the ad networks? Or just whitelist hostnames/addresses one by one until the setup works. Not exactly a user-friendly option, but an option nonetheless.
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    dns block it at the router
khedoros1 5y ago
Yeah...mine shows a nag about not accepting the online agreements, connecting the TV to the network, etc. Hasn't stopped me from using it as a display for the inputs I was using on my previous non-smart TV.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Ew.
jitix 5y ago
Yeah I was afraid my new TV would do that. I was planning to return it if it did because I had bad experience with Vizio and TCL smart TVs breaking updates before (I'm an Apple TV user). I can confirm that Roku firmware works great without the internet and doesn't nag. I just turn it on and switch to my Apple TV.
squarefoot 5y ago
Not just that. Broadband connection for things will become so cheap in the future that it could become essentially free one day so it can be subsidized by the businesses depending on it. 5G aside, It is believable that in a few years most home broadband routers, even tightly closed ones, could open a channel anyway using a fraction of the bandwidth for exclusive use by devices so that only closed source drivers will be able to instruct WiFi chips to see and use it. The catch being that there won't be any means of preventing the TV or other devices from going online, short of opening them and removing physically the network hardware. I believe we badly need alternative (Open Source, auditable, trustworthy) operating systems for smart TVs too. Next will be cars, fridges, etc. Pretty much everything.
johnklos 5y ago
The statement, "just don't connect it to the network" still stands. If something requires a connection, return it. It's clearly anti-consumer and will do nefarious things (which we already know Samsung does).
- nerdponx 5y ago
  And then you won't have a TV, and Samsung will keep making these abusive TVs without giving one single fuck about your return.

jjoonathan 5y ago

Why does (consumer) monitor tech always seem to lag TV tech by a few years? It looks like the situation is still that in the 4k OLED space there are a few ~$4000+ monitors and dozens of ~$1000 TVs. Per the pcpartpicker link, maybe the Gigabyte FO48U will change that, but it's still out of stock. Besides, I feel like this has happened before with HDR and 4k and IPS. First it shows up in TVs, a year later it is cheap in TVs, a year later it is expensive in monitors, and finally it becomes cheap in monitors. But it takes years. Which seems odd, since surely they use the same panels? Is it an industry structure thing, where panel manufacturers integrate and co-develop with TV manufacturers but monitor manufacturers are separate, only get the panels after release, and need a year or three to turn things around?

bsedlm 5y ago
> Why does (consumer) monitor tech always seem to lag TV tech by a few years? because there's more money to be made selling TVs than monitors? consequentely, it's TV manufacturers pushing the entire display maker industry ahead? and so they get the newer tech first??
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  That's what I suspect, yes, but if that's the case it feels like integrating a monitor manufacturer would be a quick and easy business win for the TV guys.
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    > it feels like integrating a monitor manufacturer would be a quick and easy business win for the TV guys. What does this even mean? The same companies that make panels for monitors usually make panels for the TVs as well. They already have production facilities that can manufacture panel sizes ranging from cell-phone size to 200" commercial wall panels.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Most people don't buy the volume to get a special size panel. Want a panel, you can save a ton of money buying one we already make. My company has obsoleted perfectly good embedded systems and had to redesign a new UI just because the panel we used went out of production. (I knew all along doing pixel perfect UI instead of one that scaled was a stupid idea, but I got overruled, now we spend a ton of money making our UI scale)
brtkdotse 5y ago
TV manufacturers can offset the lower price by selling ads to show you on your “smart” tv
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  That wouldn't explain the delay, and do they really expect to sell $3000 of ads per customer? I have doubts.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    They get money from the ads, they get money from selling your usage data, they get money by selling space on the remote for streaming apps, and probably through some other means as well.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      Sure, but my intuition says they might get a few hundred dollars that way, tops. Is my intuition off by an entire order of magnitude?
      - WillPostForFood 5y ago
        Vizio, as a public company, now has to share their ad revenue data: https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021 https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/11/10/22773073/vi...
        jjoonathan 5y ago
        > from $10.44 to $19.89. Yeah, I thought $3000 sounded silly, and my only mistake was that I thought it was one order of magnitude silly when in fact it was two orders of magnitude silly.
        cgriswald 5y ago
caymanjim 5y ago
TV display quality is dogshit compared to monitors. Even cheap low-end monitors tend to have better displays. They aren't the same panels at all.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Nope. I'm using an OLED TV as a monitor on my main PC, and it kicks the pants off any monitor I've ever used before, including the 2021 MBP monitor I'm typing this on right now.
  - onemoresoop 5y ago
    Which one are you using if you don't mind me asking?
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      LG C1. I have to turn it off and on with a remote, take the usual OLED precautions, and tolerate its "smart" nonsense, but the color is gorgeous and the contrast is magical.
      - KptMarchewa 5y ago
        Does autodimming work decently on C1? It's really bothering me when I try to use my CX as a monitor.
        jjoonathan 5y ago
        Agreed, auto-dimming is rough. I turned it off. 60% constant brightness for work, uncapped HDR mode for play.
        WithinReason 5y ago
        How do you switch? Can you do it with just the keyboard?
8note 5y ago
Monitors are built for being an arm's length away. TVs are built for being several yards away. The pixel density changes accordingly
- cyberge99 5y ago
  And so does the ability to use IR or some other remote control mechanism. A “dumb tv” would just be a monitor with a remote to control power and volume.
- lodovic 5y ago
  There are monitors built specifically for digital signage, these have the same specs as large TVs but no tuner or adware.
kube-system 5y ago
Volume? Whether we're talking about TVs or monitors, the most competitive offerings are always the segments that sell in volume. Just because OLED tech "exists" doesn't mean the equipment exists to make it economically at any particular size, format, etc. We have affordable TV-sized and phone-sized OLEDs because LG has invested in the equipment to make those particular panels in those particular sizes.
iypx 5y ago
Maybe in the high-end only? Speaking of low to mid end tvs, the ones I saw on display in local shops, they were just overpriced junk.. Even though it's smaller, I installed my 7? year old 24" benq fhd e-ips monitor as a tv for my parents. $120 + $20 for the cheapest 2.1 sound (I think 2x10W + sub), cranked the bass much higher than advised, put the speakers behind the monitor and the sub on the floor + ISP tv box with remote. Speakers and monitor are always on, they got their own power saving stuff. My parents are ecstatic, guests are asking where they got the TV from... apparently it looks better that the ones you could buy for $500+... Last time I checked, I remember finding somewhere most tvs don't actually operate at the advertised resolution, they got all kinds of "prettifying" algos. Not going to trust them ever.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  The panels have the advertised resolution, but yes, for "smart" TVs you always have to figure out how to turn off the gross sharpening/compression filters that they use to win the Great Best Buy Screensaver Battle. It can be done, though, and certainly if the manufacturer wanted to omit them in a monitor offering it could.
  - ansible 5y ago
    Two of the most important settings: Game mode. This turns off most/all the image processing, which greatly increases the lag. Overscan. Also turn it off. This zooms in the picture a little to crop out artifacts around the edge.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      ^ This.
ksec 5y ago
>Why does (consumer) monitor tech always seem to lag TV tech by a few years?.... Monitor used to have "much" lower input latency, higher PPI, much higher refresh rate and generally higher reliability because they are expected to be constantly on. i.e Their panels have different specifications. Although I am not sure if most of the above are true anymore especially with OLED. Given how TV manufactures have also had focus on gaming. But reliability is still a thing on monitor. That is the similar to reference TV that uses panel from one of two years prior. Edit: I had to look up Panasonic TV set and panel and then I discovered they are pulling out of TV production and outsource to external partner. Sigh. https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1634887160 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=...
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Yeah, I use gaming mode for my TV-as-a-monitor and if I don't the lag is noticeable even on the desktop. It has the nice side effect of disabling the obnoxious sharpening filters, too. My dedicated monitors have had dismal reliability: one died right after the warranty, one died inside the warranty and they flaked on the warranty anyway. My reliability expectations are rock bottom, my TV will have to work hard to undershoot them.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Why does (consumer) monitor tech always seem to lag TV tech by a few years? Well, “always” seems like an exaggeration; consumer monitors were far beyond 480i before consumer TVs were. > It looks like the situation is still that in the 4k OLED space there are a few ~$4000+ monitors and dozens of ~$1000 TVs. That’s not monitors being behind in tech, that’s TVs being cheaper because of economies of scale and opportunity for ad serving and data harvesting. > Is it an industry structure thing, where panel manufacturers integrate and co-develop with TV manufacturers but monitor manufacturers are separate AFAIK, LG, Sharp, Samung, and Sony are all four panel/TV/monitor manufacturers; I dont think that’s an issue.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Scale and ads are plausible explanations for why monitors are behind in tech, but they're still behind in tech.
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    What a weird nonsensical statement. Monitors and TVs are manufactured with the same "tech", just to different specifications to fit their desired purpose/niche, and to capture the maximum possible value from that market. You could maybe make an argument that Samsung panel tech is behind LG's or something, since companies have separate R&D labs and actually have different technology, but in order to do so you'd have to be an industry expert.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      In what world is a comparison "nonsensical"? They both displays pixels. Each can be substituted for the other with a modest amount of non-panel-related effort. They compete. We can compare them. > the same "tech", just to different specifications to fit their desired purpose/niche Clearly not. I am using a TV as a monitor right now, because 4k + OLED + HDR + 120hz was just not available for $1100 in the monitor space six months ago (I think there was a $6000 offering, lol). Looks like it still isn't. This situation has been going on for years. Before OLED it was HDR, before HDR it was 4k, and so on. TVs are always far ahead, monitors are always far behind. I'd rather not use a TV as a monitor because it's a PITA. I have to put up with substantial non-panel-related silliness to make this happen (turn the TV off/on with a remote, deactivate the laggy filters, tolerate the "smart" BS, etc). If monitors are so well tailored to their own niche, why are they losing so badly to a competitor who isn't even trying? > to capture the maximum possible value from that market That's the only explanation I can come up with: monitors are a backwater that the industry just doesn't care much about because volume is lower. Tech has to trickle down, and that takes years.
fragmede 5y ago
TV's are such a big business that they overwhelm the rest of the display manufacturing world. That's why 16:10 monitors basically disappeared - 16:9 is 1080p is a TV. On the other end of the spectrum is professional industry displays which are ahead of consumer facing devices, like are shown at NAB (vs CES) and there you'll find 8k monitors for tens of thousands of dollars.
mrzimmerman 5y ago
If I had to guess I’d say it’s just market size. I’d bet there’s a larger market if people who want a large, high definition TV for movies and shows than there is for people who want a high definition monitor. Most business uses for monitors don’t require high definition, so you’re really looking at specific industries and gaming.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Excluding that Mac market, I don't think Apple sell anything new anymore that is under 200 PPI.

femto113 5y ago

Another approach is to look not for things advertised as "monitors" but instead look for "digital signage"[1]. Nowadays most of these contain some networking features but they'll be oriented at local control (i.e. by you via something on your LAN), not some third-party control center accessed via the internet. Anecdotally this is the approach I took ~20 years ago when buying a (then slightly exotic) plasma flatscreen from Panasonic. It is still working flawlessly today, though I keep hoping it will die so I can guiltlessly replace it with something newer/bigger/higher-resolution. [1] A random example https://www.usa.philips.com/p-p/86BDL3050Q_00/signage-solutions-q-line-display https://www.usa.philips.com/p-p/86BDL3050Q_00/signage-soluti...

beyondzero 5y ago
Challenges are features like HDR and having four HDMI inputs. Planar makes incredible and also expensive displays for the commercial market. They offer a "luxury living" solution but the smallest is 100". https://www.planar.com/markets/luxury-living/ https://www.planar.com/markets/luxury-living/
bentcorner 5y ago
Digital signage is good but from my understanding (and I could be wrong) probably over-engineered for home usage. They're intended to be powered on 24x7, and last a long time. Probably more resistant to burn-in too. All of which is good, but if your use case isn't so intensive you could get by with something lower-end. (Especially if you want to eventually replace the device and are looking for an excuse ;) )
- femto113 5y ago
  My direct experience is somewhat out of date, but from an engineering perspective the unit I have is much simpler than any TV, since it lacks a tuner or any fancy video scaling capability, and has no audio capability of any kind (that was a feature to me, since I use an A/V Receiver for sound). I think in general screens meant for signage are probably brighter than most TVs/monitors, but depending on the room that could be a useful feature as well.
- ungamedplayer 5y ago
  The model that I have js definitely over engineered. I have a 2k sign display which uses display port and its 8 years old. It's It's bit ugly, but as long as you are okay with that.
vineyardmike 5y ago
But does digital signage have good panels like "real" TVs? Eg. the high end oleds with deep blacks and stuff?
- wiredfool 5y ago
  It depends. I have an Iiyama 44” and the display, while nominally 4K, is noticeably not as good as a good 32” 4K monitor. It’s not really visible when watching video, but using it as an external display looks horrible close up. This is one of the ones with an android board in it, and if I did it again, I’d be getting someone sold as a computer monitor.
  - kasabali 5y ago
    Of course a 44" panel doesn't look as good as a 32" one, it has lower pixel density. This has nothing to do with it having a bad panel.
    - wiredfool 5y ago
      The pixel density difference is about 30%. With careful close observation, you can easily see the pixels in each one. The monitor has smooth solid colors. The Iiyama looks more like it's a native 1920px wide with some 'interesting' pixel layouts for more dynamic range. It looks like complete crap with things like window titles, the MacOS blue highlight, and other gradients.
- bscphil 5y ago
  My experience is that not only are the panels generally worse, support for things like color calibration or Dolby Vision is almost impossible to find. Which is understandable because it's not obvious what advantage HDR would bring to digital signage.
  - hakfoo 5y ago
    While not HDR, I'd think colour calibration would be fairly important for signage. If your company red is too washed out, or one section of a video-wall menu board is inconsistent brightness, it looks bad on your brand.
kingcharles 5y ago
Same thing I did 20 years ago. IIRC it was the only way to get a flatscreen at the time. Mine was a NEC. 40" plasma. 1366x768. Not even full HD. I think it would work out to about $7000. It pissed me off that it didn't even come with a wall bracket and I had to shell out another $600 for that. For the price of just my wall bracket you can now buy a pretty nice 65" 4K screen I'm sure.
softawre 5y ago
Lots of places call these "commercial monitors". https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Flat-Panel-Displays/ci/16073/N/4205668456 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Flat-Panel-Displays/ci/16...
krolden 5y ago
This is good advice but if you're looking for something fancy like HDR or DV you will be dissapointed as (in my experience) digital signage displays often lack those features. I have a big 4k tv that was destined for a sports bar but it was slightly damaged, got it for a great price. Sadly it doesn't have HDR either, but it is an older model. Anyway, its great as in there's no WiFi. There is a network port but there's no streaming apps or anything installed on it. I use it paired with an nvidia shield and a nakamichi soundbar and have been enjoying the experience. But I digress, look for business displays

Benjammer 5y ago

I have seen stories of smart TVs doing active scans for any unsecured wifi network in range, then connecting and phoning home without ever informing the user or showing anything in the menus. Is that a real thing?

FearlessNebula 5y ago
Not only this, but how long until they start including a cheap modem and paying for their own cellular connectivity?
- 1121redblackgo 5y ago
  My god damn CPAP machine does this. Insurance required the modem in order for them to pay for it.
  - myrandomcomment 5y ago
    There a number of guides on disabling this. That being said you still need to bring the SD card to doctor every 6 months for review. This is a good thing. The doctor is trying to help you. I know someone that died because they went on a trip and forgot their CPAP and just stopped breathing in the middle of the night and did not wake up. It happens. When you get a CPAP there is a reason. Take it seriously. If you are having issues because of physically fixable issues there are surgeries that can help (I had 2 things fixed). Most of the time however its just being fat and physical. Loosing the weight helps and the effect can be tracked in the data the CPAP collects. The doctor can then use the data to adjust then pressure down. I am speaking from experience. My pressure setting has dropped as I took off the beer gut. This time next year I will likely be able to be done with it.
- Benjammer 5y ago
  Ugh this is way worse and actually seems far more likely and easy to accomplish than the public wifi thing...
  - Arrath 5y ago
    It's going to be time to crack the sucker open and burn out the traces to/from the modem, isn't it. E: And in the ongoing arms war, then manufacturer's ship remotes that no longer use tried and true IR but instead go over the same bluetooth or 2.4ghz chip. Some probably already do, I would expect.
    - mike-the-mikado 5y ago
      My new Panasonic TV has dual-mode remote control - IR+Bluetooth. Bluetooth means that you don't need to point the remote as accurately. Plus you can use a phone as remote control.
- bogwog 5y ago
  Or they buy access to things like this: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 No need to include a modem when your customer's neighbor has an internet-connected toaster within bluetooth range of the TV.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- aendruk 5y ago
  See also Amazon Sidewalk.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  That's part of the push for 5G - the idea that it becomes much easier to have many more devices, hence you can drop a modem anywhere.
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  Jesus Christ, at that point I'd just go in the TV and snip a trace in it.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    It won’t be long until we start taking a ddwrt approach and jtagging our tvs and replacing them with custom ROMs. We’ll be okay for another 5-10 years before they securely start locking that down too.
    - burnt_toast 5y ago
      I'm optimistic within 5-10 years we'll start to see the rise of open source tvs that'll save us. I have no sources to back this up but seeing the release of several open source laptops gives me hope.
blowfish721 5y ago
I’ve heard of this rumour and hope it’s true and that someone has evidence of a tv manufactor is doing this in the US. https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/wi-fi-connection-laws.html https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/wi-fi-connect...
jzymbaluk 5y ago
How would the TV phone home if it's not connected to the internet?
- rubidium 5y ago
  "doing active scans for any unsecured wifi network in range"
  - 10000truths 5y ago
    This doesn’t seem like a practical thing for manufacturers to implement. How common are such networks in actuality? Literally the only time I ever encountered unsecured Wi-Fi networks in the past several years were guest networks, and all of those were gated by a capture portal that would have blocked any sort of attempt at telemetry or ad serving.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      A deal with comcast and their ubiquitous pseudo public hotspots would simplify that.
      - Firehawke 5y ago
        xfinitywifi, the comparable similar functionality from CenturyLink, etc, or if you happen to live just a bit too close to a McDonalds or other business that has open WiFi. And of course the possibility of one of your neighbors screwing up his WiFi setup. There are a lot of ways this can (and has) gone horribly wrong for privacy.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      I doubt any TV does this but if I needed to implement it I would just do it the same way that I use wifi in hotels that have captive portals without paying for it: tunnel IP over DNS.
    - kazinator 5y ago
      > doesn’t seem like a practical thing for manufacturers to implement. In terms of what, lines of code? Engineer days?
hellisothers 5y ago
Do you have a reference for this? I’ve heard this too but have never actually seen a first hand account
rodgerd 5y ago
Some also: 1. Scan the HDMI content and send information back to the mothership to help vendors know what you're watching. 2. Scan the local network for shares and look at media on them, again to send back to the mothership.
sys_64738 5y ago
This sounds crazily like science fiction. The TV wants to live so will do anything to stay alive. Isn't this what HAL did to the guy Dave in the end?
BearOso 5y ago
I doubt these stories. The number of people who get a smart TV and don’t connect it to the Internet are a minority. It’s just not worth the cost for any company to develop advanced features to spy on that limited subset.

Volundr 5y ago

That's sadly not really true. I have an LG that I (thought) I was using this way until one day in the middle of watching some TV I get a prompt about a OnePlus phone trying to control my TV, do I want to accept? Needless to say and didn't, but I was baffled by what happened. Turns out that the stupid TV is controllable via an app over bluetooth, and there is no way to turn bluetooth off. I'm just stuck with my TV constantly advertising it's presence to everything around it.

yholio 5y ago

To second this advice, I have a 4 year old 75" Sony Bravia that I did not connect to the internet in any way, despite being an Android device. I have updated the firmware using the instructions on the Sony website, downloaded a package, extracted on a USB stick and let the TV boot on that. Figured it's best to have an up to date operating system for bug fixes, security updates, file format support etc. Never intend to use the "smart" features on the TV, internet browsing, Netflix etc., I handle that perfectly with my "broken lid" laptop, which is a well maintained machine, typing these very words on it. So I can vouch that at least for Sony TVs in the KD or KDL series XD, XE, XF, XG (most of them launched a few years ago), you can use them just fine without internet, and you can even update them. You can also turn off Bluetooth and prevent the TV from advertising its presence. Don't know about the newer OLED and QLED devices, you should try them on in the store.

pwdisswordfish9 5y ago
What do you need security updates for if you don’t connect it to the Internet?
- tomnipotent 5y ago
  Updates include more than just security fixes.
  - spurgu 5y ago
    Yes but to nitpick he already mentioned bugfixes and file format support alongside security fixes (which he wouldn't/shouldn't need). :)
    - yholio 5y ago
      I disagree. You can have security bugs in non-connected devices, for example crafted file formats or metadata that can carry executable payload, worms that force their way in though some insecure Bluetooth receiver, or even by infecting the myriad data channels embedded in modern broadcasting; access to such a broadcast stream might be very lucrative since it will give you access to tens of thousands to tens of millions of devices. I agree that the target is low value and that the attacker will most likely not bother infecting Android TVs; he would need to force them to connect to WiFi to exfiltrate any data, a very complex and unlikely attack if your TV is not used to monitor uranium centrifuge data.

beagle3 5y ago

Amazon had (perhaps still has) whispernet - a global coverage of cellular networks. It was used to download books to your kindle, essentially anywhere in the world, without having to have a local plan or WiFi. It was 2G iirc, enough for book download. Uploading a perceptive hash of what you are watching - e.g. a frame every few seconds - also fits on 2G speeds.

bogwog 5y ago
Also maybe I'm mistaken, but don't most modern cars have a built in modem for sending telemetry to the manufacturer as well?
- hellojesus 5y ago
  Yes. Toyota seems to like putting the transceiver behind the glove box, forcing you to introduce a bundle of rattles to your newly purchased vehicle to remove. Also, I'm pretty sure removing it disables some of the front speakers, requiring manual wire connecting to get them back. You could maybe leave the device in there but encase it in a Faraday cage, but still rattles are introduced. Ford, iirc, places it on the floor under or behind some seats making it much easier to deal with. I think MA just passed a law about not allowing vehicles sold there to sell your telemetry data or something.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > I think MA just passed a law about not allowing vehicles sold there to sell your telemetry data or something. i believe they just have to share the data with others, which they don't want to do.
scoopertrooper 5y ago
Whispernet is dead from what I understand. As countries began shutting down 3G networks, Amazon was no long able to get connectivity at a price point where it was economically feasible.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Not dead, just replaced. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Why not use helium network?
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
Ok, so... TV phones home a lot, with info about stuff, some info big lots of bandwidth. could there be an attack with buying some tvs and putting them on public WiFi - and could one find a way to increase the amount the tv was sending so it amounted to an attack - but still have plausible deniability. If tvs were put on public wifi, which I guess there is no reason why you shouldn't put your tv on public wifi, and the tv is using lots of bandwidth, and your tv is popular in a country with lots of free wifi, is that tv manufacturer guilty of an attack on the free wifi infrastructure of that country? I'm asking for a short story or several I might write some day.

garmaine 5y ago

XBMC/Kodi, or AppleTV if you want a managed ecosystem.

duderific 5y ago
AppleTV is not analogous to a Roku stick however, unless I'm misunderstanding. It is an app that already requires a connection to Wifi from the TV; Roku stick is what provides this connection. Additionally, AppleTV does not support Netflix or Disney+ among others. [1] [1] https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/29/apple-tv-channels-services/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/29/apple-tv-channels-services/
- laGrenouille 5y ago
  The app is different. You can certainly use Netflix on a recent Apple TV [1]. [1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23887 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23887
- sgerenser 5y ago
  AppleTV is a device like a Roku box or stick. AppleTV is also an app on iOS devices, roku boxes, etc. AppleTV the device has Netflix and Disney+ available, among many other apps.
- sueders101 5y ago
  Confusingly Apple actually has a few ‘Apple TV’ product. There’s the app that you’re describing then there’s the physical device, as well as the subscription service. The physical device is the Roku competitor, and supports Netflix/Disney+ etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_TV_(disambiguation) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_TV_(disambiguation)
- joney_baloney 5y ago
  Pedantic Post Alert, but there's a few different products called "Apple TV". There's the hardware box called Apple TV that comes with a remote and plugs into the HDMI on your TV. That IS an alternative to Roku. Then there's the Apple TV app, which runs on the Apple TV box. This can integrate with some other streaming services and show you their content in the app. Not Netflix or HBO (or some others) though. And finally (that's all?) there's the Apple TV+ service that's 4.99 a month and lets you watch shows that Apple produces in the Apple TV app on the Apple TV box (or your iPhone, iPad, etc.) It's all named very well and clear.
  - alsetmusic 5y ago
    > It's all named very well and clear. I really enjoyed this. Apple’s handling of the Apple TV product names are baffling to me, given their once brilliant marketing department.
  - duderific 5y ago
    Ok, I've been set straight. I wasn't able to get the full picture searching online.