21 ms·

OpenLGTV: Legal reverse engineering and research of LG TVs firmware

602 points by transpute 5y ago

sebyx07 5y ago
free streaming sites + offline tv as monitor + an old thinkpad + vpn + Unified Remote app, is my setup. Better than any netflix and crapware as a service
stevesimmons 5y ago
I so want this for my Samsung TV... since they did a firmware update that puts ads into the source selection screen. And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred.
- marceldegraaf 5y ago
  Pro-tip: use a DNS provider that can block ads (e.g. NextDNS) or install Pi-Hole in your local network, and block Samsung's ad network domains. It's sad that this is necessary to keep enjoying a device of $2,000+ that you own, but it has worked beautifully for my Samsung Frame TV.
  - josteink 5y ago
    Samsung does this for their top end models? WTF! I’ll put them on my list of devices to never buy then. Jeez.
    - patrickk 5y ago
      Samsung boasts about having Automatic Content Recognition[1] on their website. There was a discussion on HN some time ago, many/all major tv manufacturers suck in your viewing data via HDMI fingerprinting (IIRC) in order to serve up unblockable ads and sell your viewing profile to ad networks. Many tv makers send data to Chinese based servers too, from memory. It’s nuts. [1]https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-ad-retargeting/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-... Edit, more reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat...
    - ornornor 5y ago
      They do a lot more than that. In particular, they take a screenshot of what you’re currently watching at regular intervals and send it to a content recognition server. That way they’re able to tell what every single Samsung owner is watching at any given time and even if you’re watching a show you downloaded or something that’s not on the air. They then sell this data to broadcasters for measuring audience but also to show you ads related to what you’re watching (if you watched ice age, maybe they’ll advertise another animation movie to you). And they also use that data to target you on other devices you own because they’re able to use your tv as a Trojan horse and figure out what other devices are on your network and thus belong to the same person. IIRC they also scan and extract what devices are connected to hdmi ports so they know what consoles etc you’re using to further complete your advertising profile. That was several years ago, I can’t imagine they’ve gotten anything but even more data greedy over time. A good Samsung tv is an offline Samsung tv. A better Samsung tv is one you don’t own.
      - fnord123 5y ago
        This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe.
        null_object 5y ago
        > This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe. I keep hoping this is gonna be the case, but the years roll on, I'm still clicking some stupid consent-popup on every single website I ever visit, and in the meantime TV manufacturers continuously spy on their users, sell their user-data, and push unwanted ads into their interface and even in programs being watched, and apparently no-one (apart from a few of us on HN) seems to care.
        Nullabillity 5y ago
        For what it's worth, at least on my Swedish model, this seems to be gated behind an opt-in (default off!) consent toggle. It was buried in several layers of menus, and not even mentioned during the setup process. So I would assume that this is mostly an issue in non-GDPR regions (or they're doing some really ugly legal shenanigans to ignore the denied consent?).
  - sneak 5y ago
    Just don't connect your tv to any network, wired or wireless, ever. It's much simpler.
    - slig 5y ago
      It works until every device has a 5G chip on them.
      - snvzz 5y ago
        Or your neighbor's tv has internet access, and relays telemetry for yours.
      - konfusinomicon 5y ago
        then the pi hole won't even save you. we're going to need to go full on Faraday cage to escape their prying eyes!
      - burnt_toast 5y ago
        If it comes to that point I will open my devices and cut the antennas
        yardstick 5y ago
        Or extract the eSIM / figure out a way to use it for free internet like some did with Amazon Kindle SIMs.
        slig 5y ago
        And then you'll ruin your warrant.
        burnt_toast 5y ago
        Warranty doesn't mean much to me. I'm an outlier who enjoys repairing their own devices. I recently repaired a week old laptop that arrived faulty (trackpad was messed up) instead of mailing it back. I'd only cut the antennas in a last case scenario. It's more likely they'd have a connector or I'd try to de-solder them first.
- 3guk 5y ago
  Disable Samsung TV Plus - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus - and you'll be most of the way there to removing a lot of the intrusive advertising that currently shows on the Samsung homescreen.
  - superjan 5y ago
    I concur. This removed the auto play trailers on my parent’s TV.
- Sander_Marechal 5y ago
  That crap forced me to finally pi-hole my entire home. I'm never buying a Samsung TV ever again, or other Samsung stuff. My dryer broke yesterday. I specifically bought an AEG because it was a dumb dryer, not some smart appliance with an app and all that junk. Don't get me wrong, I love smart stuff. In fact, I plugged my new dryer into a Shelly S plug so my home assistant can send me a notification on my phone when it's finished. But I trust my HA. I can never trust Samsung again. Pi-hole your network for a week and take a look at the logs to see all the crap it has blocked. You'll be surprised.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    I added PiHole on a RBP and it turns out up to half the rejected requests come from my various Samsung TVs. It's staggering how much traffic comes out of them. And that's in a home with two work from home adults in laptops all day. What are other people's experiences with other brands of TV?
    - gonehome 5y ago
      When I researched them a while back I came away with LG OLEDs being the best, particularly if you paired them with an Apple TV. There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options.
      - null_object 5y ago
        > There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options. Loewe[0] make really nice, simple, high-end TVs with great picture and sound, which really don't have intrusive 'smart' features. I use mine purely as a 'monitor' for AppleTV (and Nintendo Switch). The problem is distribution: they're difficult to source even within Europe. [0]https://www.loewe.tv/int https://www.loewe.tv/int
        4ggr0 5y ago
        My problem is, that I essentially want a dumb TV, but with gaming features, I guess the mix of my requirements is what makes it impossible. If someone knows a dumb, 120hz, GSync and OLED TV, let me know :)
- LeonM 5y ago
  > And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred. Don't forget that the HN crowd is not your average consumer. Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. They just want the best TV they can afford in terms of size and picture quality. With companies this big, who have been in the consumer electronics market for decades, you can be sure that every decision (like putting ads in a menu) is tested over and over. Obviously Samsung knows that they will loose a tiny percentage of the enthusiast market by placing ads. But the margin on the sale of a TV is pretty slim anyways, and multiple years of ad income for every sold unit is probably worth losing a small fraction of your audience.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    So funny story. I have two wifis in our house ( one piholed, one not ). One day my wife comes up to me asks me why there are ads on her game now ( she was using pihole all this time ). Edit: Turns out cable was pulled. People notice, but you have to re-condition them. I know adless hulu and netflix did their part in that fight.
  - MereInterest 5y ago
    > Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. There's a difference between enjoying the current state and accepting the current state. A few years ago, while helping my grandmother find something online, I asked if she would want an adblocker installed. After explaining what it was, and what the effect was, she was over the moon for it. Ads are noticed by everyone, and are pretty universally despised. The difference is that you and I know that there are options, while less techy relatives assume that nothing can be changed.
  - deergomoo 5y ago
    I generally agree, but they put that crap on TVs that cost well into the thousands. Surely it’s only enthusiasts buying those?
- imglorp 5y ago
  Here's more reasons to hate: it's a serious surveillance device. 1. It uploads voice samples. Don't say anything sensitive in the room. https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX 2.It uploads screenshots regardless of input. See other threads. 3.Front facing camera. Not kidding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY 4. Audio beacons? Old news. https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-every-movement/125484/ https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-... 5. Targeted ad market, selling you. https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-to-target-smart-tv-owners-with-ads-revealed-3939709 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-... 6. If you don't give it wifi, it may decide to find some by itself anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_smart_tvs_connect_to_open_wifi_networks_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_s...
  - kall 5y ago
    This is all horrific, but I was especially shocked by 6 so I read that. This seems to be only someone asking if this may happen, and no one answering that it would. Of course this is the point of Amazon Sidewalk, so in due time, it probably will.
    - snvzz 5y ago
      I would expect a friendly nearby neighbor's TV which has network to be able to act as access point for other TVs surveillance facilities. They can technically do it, and I totally expect them to be doing it already.
      - lvass 5y ago
        The cheapest TV models mention access point as a feature nowadays, they're targeted to hotel rooms.
      - everybodyknows 5y ago
        Neighbor's TV, neighbor's Amazon Echo or Ring doorbell: https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > ads into the source selection screen Is there ever a point where these advertisers stop and think "no, this is too obnoxious"?
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    The advertisers probably don't pick the placement. All they know is that their content is being shown on TVs.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      I assumed the TV manufacturers are also considered advertisers since the TVs show ads.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  The link also hosts the last (obsolete now?) SamyGo. So there is something at least, from where one could start, instead of reinventing the wheel from scratch. Don't know if it could be applied to current models at all. Not following that stuff, since not using TVs since 1996.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Glad to see some work on this. The most expensive Smart TV in my house is the worst one because LG refuses to support their TVs more than a couple years: All the new streaming apps are only available on newer TVs, even if they're far cheaper and less powerful. My experience with LG's TV software support may have driven me to Roku forever. Age old Rokus still tend to have fantastic app support and run modern versions of their OS.
- square_usual 5y ago
  > Age old Rokus still tend to have fantastic app support and run modern versions of their OS. Yes, because Roku's business model is getting into your living room to spy on you. Of course they'd like to do that for as long as possible!
  - franga2000 5y ago
    It's the same with the TV vendors these days, only they want you to buy a new device every few years too.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    There's a menu setting to disable telemetry.
- polished85 5y ago
  I mostly agree, but recently I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Apple TV app became available on my 2017 50" LG. I was able to remove my Gen 3 Apple TV box. The only app I use that is still not available is HBO Max. For that I bring my daughter's PS4 into the room, but who knows maybe that will also become available.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    > The only app I use that is still not available is HBO Max. That’s a biggie. Isn’t it available on the AppleTV app? For myself, I only use my AppleTV (device), for streaming. I have an LG, but am not a fan of the weird WebOS UI, so I just leave it connected to the AppleTV.
xahrepap 5y ago
Here's what I want for custom firmware: nothing. I don't mean "I don't want custom firmware". I want custom firmware THAT DOES NOTHING. Turn the TV into a dumb monitor. Do nothing else. Don't make me wait X seconds long for the TV Software to boot. Because I don't want it. I don't need it. I have external devices that do everything I want.
- anontrot 5y ago
  I'm assuming you meant the smart part, and not the image processing part. And all other kinds of audio/video processing. If yes, even I'd love to have that!
- deanc 5y ago
  This “dumb tv” trope comes up in every one of these discussions. We are the minority and most people want a tv with a Netflix all and not to have to buy a set top box. There isn’t a market here.
  - xahrepap 5y ago
    I bring it up here because they’re reversing the LG firmware and modifying it. I would love a fork of this work that does nothing. While a developer, this kind of work is outside my current wheelhouse and I just don’t have the time to learn and fork it myself. So throwing out my desire. Half hoping someone out there wants it more than I do.. and half just expressing my frustration with modern TVs.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - beezischillin 5y ago
    It's not really worth it for them to make dumb TVs either, I assume, since that implies they can't shove ads and telemetry into them.
    - black_puppydog 5y ago
      The point being exactly that since we're now entering a time where open source TV firmware is a thing, profit motives don't necessarily trump everything else anymore. Making a firmware that does "nothing" is probably less work than making one that does a lot of things. So even in the new currency (developer time) it might be cheap and make some people happy.
beezischillin 5y ago
I'd love a feature that would allow alphabetical sorting of channels. It's kind of ridiculous that this isn't possible on a 'smart' TV today.
kayson 5y ago
I hope this eventually leads to the ability to remove ads. It's unbelievable to me that you can pay top dollar for a high end OLED tv and it will still drown you in ads and notifications. I ended up just disconnecting my tv from the internet entirely and using a dedicated Roku Ultra for streaming.
- ornornor 5y ago
  Panasonic OLEDs are the same price as LG but they show no ads whatsoever, don’t have gimmicky menus, and turn on in 5 seconds flat.
  - dkdbejwi383 5y ago
    They moved to Android since 2020.
    - adanto6840 5y ago
      Shouldn’t have to do this at all, obviously, but at least if it’s android then you’re just a few commands away from removing most anything. Used it to rid my Sony of all the annoyances and the continual “enable samba?” Prompts that kept coming up despite always choosing “disable” explicitly. Google for “adb remove ads <model/brand>” or similar. 20 minutes helped my wife not be annoyed at popovers on the TV, and saved me countless time looking for the OEM remote. :D
      - gonehome 5y ago
        I’ve found the android based TVs to be awful. Their boot up time is slow and they often seem to have trouble starting via the Apple TV remote.
  - _puk 5y ago
    Haha, I find the recommendation for Panasonic for an ad free experience quite ironic. They were the first to go there circa 2013: boot screen, home screen and volume ads. But, they got a lot of backlash, and I doubt it was as lucrative as expected, so it appears they removed them in more recent years.
pabs3 5y ago
I hope the Software Freedom Conservancy lawsuit against Visio results in an open source distribution for TVs like there is OpenWRT for routers after their last lawsuit. Perhaps the OpenLGTV/SamyGO projects and other folks will join forces on a common distro for smart TVs. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/firmware-liberation.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/firmware-liber... https://www.samygo.tv/ https://www.samygo.tv/
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  > Perhaps the OpenLGTV/SamyGO projects and other folks will join forces on a common distro for smart TVs. What's wrong with webOS? I assume LG have "Googled"[0] it to some extent with proprietary software, but there's documentation, a lot of open-source stuff, and overall it doesn't look too bad. [0]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Not parent, but I think I can respond. There is really nothing wrong with WebOS ( I actually find very good for my needs ), but the focus is not on having one decent OS we can mess around with as needed. The focus is on ensuring that users have actual control over their smart TVs. And this is where it gets fun. There is money to be made from harvesting data. Do you think companies will willingly give up the ability to keep 'users' in their grasp?
    - cassianoleal 5y ago
      > users have actual control over their smart TVs I would add to that future updates, etc as well. LG stops bringing in major WebOS versions for older models, so you miss out on features and apps that would have no problems running on the hardware.
      - 5y ago
Retr0id 5y ago
See also: https://github.com/webosbrew/webos-homebrew-channel https://github.com/webosbrew/webos-homebrew-channel - A GUI app for easily installing homebrew applications on LG WebOS TVs https://repo.webosbrew.org/apps/ https://repo.webosbrew.org/apps/ - A repo of such homebrew applications https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io - A one-click* LG TV rooting tool *firmware-version dependent, an updated exploit supporting "all" firmwares is in the pipeline.
- Nursie 5y ago
  That's interesting. To your knowlege does the rooting/installation of this stuff break existing streaming apps, or are they not affected?
  - Retr0id 5y ago
    They are not affected.
- anktor 5y ago
  Does anyone know of anything equivalent for samsung? I have a QE65Q75T model which I feel gets more ads as the weeks go by, and I didn't know this type of things were possible
  - Jleagle 5y ago
    Pihole?
    - anktor 5y ago
      That's something I'm looking, but I would also be able to personalize the UI of the TV, since it has a lot of clutter and things I am never going to use. Add to that the fact that some apps cannot be uninstalled and a tiny disk size, I would really like to "own" my tv more.
- ig0r0 5y ago
  Many thanks for this. Rooting my LG TV with rootmy.tv took a few seconds and now I am enjoying YouTube without ads which Pihole was never able block properly.
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GoToRO 5y ago
Finally I can find out why the tv messes up the channel list by moving some channels at random after which any edit of the channel list will corrupt it even further…
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retSava 5y ago
I made https://github.com/msloth/lgtv.js https://github.com/msloth/lgtv.js which can control a webos LGTV on your local network. It was in my js beginnings so pretty sketchy and not at all clean. Once I was able to control it I kind of lost interest in making it more tweakable, cleaner interface etc, but there are others that did. At home I now run a small rpi0 with a telegram bot that, among other things, acts as a LGTV command proxy. So on my phone, I now tell my telegram bot eg "movie" which then puts the tv on the right input, sets volume, dims some hue lights and shows a nice float on the TV with a welcoming message. It's also useful when I can't find the physical remote, or to send messages like "dinner in 10" (that shows on the TV screen in a float) to a gaming child with selective hearing enabled :).
- mjoin 5y ago
  That way of communicating with your child is some black mirror shit
  - retSava 5y ago
    Hehe, if that were the only modus of communication, yeah :). Thankfully it isn't, we are also known for leaving messages in the snow, ads in the local newspaper under pseudonyms, anon leetspeaks on the dark webs, and occasionally speaking with one another :). I do like Black mirror :)
  - mkl 5y ago
    Why? It's just an instant message.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    If you prefer shouting up the stairs through multiple doors over whatever it is they're doing, that's your prerogative of course.
    - nsxwolf 5y ago
      Anyone remember home intercoms? They seemed to be incredibly popular in new home construction for awhile in the late 80s and early 90s where I live. They were very useful. They seemed to disappear without really being replaced by anything. I’m considering getting a bunch of HomePod Minis to try out the intercom function.
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
It's interesting that FOSS point inexorably towards what people want if only the interface was available - and it is clearly not what corporate decision makers want.
illuminated 5y ago
Is there any similar project covering Panasonic smart TV's?
lorek123 5y ago
I wonder if I could remap movies button on my remote so it won't try to install/open Rakuten TV and run other app instead.
rootsudo 5y ago
The same time, it's a bit sad that people are doing this and putting this much effort into a toxic product. I don't mind the fire stick/tv, and DNS rules but if it gets too much I just won't buy a tv and get rid of it. I get that it's a nice piece of furniture and such, but if it's hostile, expensive and after a few years becomes worthless - why bother. I'll fight by not purchasing a tv.
- rxt_ian 5y ago
  It's possible that buying the TV and removing the toxisity is more effective - you get the subsidised price, but the manufacturer never makes the ad money back.
bborud 5y ago
Given that modern TVs like to phone home a lot, and have microphones and cameras. I think an open source solution would be really nice to have.
martyvis 5y ago
Really like my 2020 LG TV. (First TV I have ever bought - I'm 58 and every other TV was either a gift, the 14" Sanyo from my parents-in-law in 1989, or hand-me-down) The one thing I'd like fixed is when I watch an in-progress scheduled recording, say 15 minutes behind real-time, the TV jumps in to live TV mode rather than continue to play the recording. I have to manually go and select the recording and then jog forward to the point I was watching. Seems a strange default, certainly different to Kodi. I've been meaning to write a bug report but it would be interesting if this project has a fix.
marcodiego 5y ago
This should not only be legal, this should be the law. A manufacturer/vendor should be obliged by law to hand out keys to allow the user to own the device that was bought.
- sneak 5y ago
  Consumers are already free to choose to buy from manufacturers that do this. Consumers largely dgaf. Additionally, companies like Apple know and believe that if consumers could exercise such control, a large number of them would be deceived into using such control to backdoor their own devices for advertisers and other shady characters, such as is the case in Android-land. Consumers often choose products specifically because they offer the feature that they are completely and totally managed by the vendor. You may not like it, but many people who don't care much about their privacy from the vendor do.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    > Consumers are already free to choose to buy from manufacturers that do this. Consumers largely dgaf. Can you point me one manufacturer whose is smart tv is simple for the user to replace the software it runs?
    - hjtkfkfmr 5y ago
      The fact that they don't exist should tell you something - paying consumers don't care about this. You sitting on the sideline are not a paying consumer, and there are two few like you for such a product. Remember that all TV started dumb, and SMART TV's were always premium products.
      - MereInterest 5y ago
        In Voltaire's "Candide", there is a character who insists that this is the best of all possible worlds. Every hurt you have ever felt, every illness and death anyone has experienced, everything is exactly as it should be. That neither humans nor God could improve upon the world as it is, because any change would make things worse somewhere else. As the story shows more and more tragedies, natural disasters, wars, and famines, this character needs to come up with increasingly convoluted explanations for how those can possibly exist in the best of all possible worlds. The reader sees just how foolish this idea is. The efficient market hypothesis to which you are alluding is just the same, stating that the market state is the best of all possible markets.
antihero 5y ago
I just wish I could get the auto-turn off timer to disable. I've disabled it everywhere in menus. Still, after a few hours of it being connected to my Apple TV 4K, it gives me the whole "TV will be turned off in five minutes unless you press a button on the controller" bullshit. Other than that I just want the thing to be a lowest-possible-latency, accuratest-possible-colour dumb display. No cool shit, just a dumb accurate fast panel.
- maweki 5y ago
  Maybe you could periodically give some remote control command through one of the WebOSTV python libraries. Needs networking though. Alternatively, an Arduino/ESP that sends a useless IR signal.
- doikor 5y ago
  If you can get your hands on a service remote it will allow you to access a menu to disable that and a bunch more (a lot of the OLED burnin prevention features you can’t normally fully disable)
  - 0x53 5y ago
    If you have a phone with a IR blaster (mostly older LG phones) you have download an android app that with act as an LG service remote
    - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
      Some old Samsungs have it as well, such as the Galaxy S5.
    - heeen2 5y ago
      You can do it with a rpi, ir diode and resistor even. The tool for sending and receiving ir commands is called lirc
    - genewitch 5y ago
      Huawei and Xiaomi phones have IR blasters as well. I always try to buy phones that have those, because A) "i lost the remote" and B) "shut off every TV at the store" is hilarious. The first device i had that had this was a Palm, and it wasn't like "here's a remote control" it was "this 1 button will cycle every known TV IR code for the power button." Someone eventually released an actual IR blaster app for Palms, though.
Hakashiro 5y ago
Can someone explain to me how this is legal? I understand LG may not want to enforce IP laws, but something illegal is illegal regardless of perpetrators being punished or not. And to me this seems quite obviously to be a violation of international IP laws. Like I'm all for right to repair and whatnot but I don't even think the LG TOS/EULA allows you to do this? Correct me if I'm wrong.
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  What, more exactly, is illegal? Reverse engineering is not illegal (in no jurisdiction that I know of). And neither being in violation of a EULA or a TOS.
  - Hakashiro 5y ago
    If the EULA explicitly states you are not allowed to reverse-engineer the product, which is so common I've never seen one that doesn't say so (I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I haven't see it) then... doing so is a breach of the terms and therefore illegal by definition.
    - RealityVoid 5y ago
      It's... debatable. EULA's are not enforceable usually. Just because something is mentioned in an EULA it does not mean it's the law.
      - Hakashiro 5y ago
        Apple is suing NSO because NSO employees created accounts violating iCloud's EULA.
jancsika 5y ago
I just hook my rpi up to the (non-smart) tv and use x2x over ssh to open Chromium from whatever device I'm running. What am I missing that open source version of smart-tv firmware/software would get me?
- marcodiego 5y ago
  Unfortunately non smart tv's are getting rarer and more expensive.
- speeder 5y ago
  1. Non-smart TVs are being hard to find. 2. most devices to plug into TVs are underpowered for some applications, for example I tried to transmit games from my PC to such devices, and they all introduced too much artifacting and input lag, TVs tend to have a bunch of ASIC/FPGA alongside their general processor to handle video and thus can perform better. 3. computers that CAN handle the previous use cases, often are very expensive anywya, so... in a sense doesn't make sense anymore, for example I looked into this and concluded the "cheapeast" option would be a rpi4 with more RAM and SSD... at the prices here it made more sense to buy a actual x86 computer instead.
  - vbphprubyjsgo 5y ago
    What use case are you talking about? Plugging a chord from PC to TV will only have input lag due to the TV itself. No artifacting would be caused from this either. I can't imagine what "transmitting a game to such devices as a rasberry pi" means.
    - speeder 5y ago
      You send input from Pi to a PC elsewhere, then on that PC the game is running, instead of outputting to screen it instead writes to a compressed video stream and sends it back to the pi. Same thing for audio. Then the pi must uncompress the video and audio, convert to the format HDMI uses and send to TV. All that must be done in less than a millisecond, and depending on your TV model might require it to be done 120 or even 240 times per second.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vbphprubyjsgo 5y ago
> The main goal of the project is to improve the functionalities of the TVs by adding new features, fixing bugs and providing new software. The solution to software in TVs is to have no software in TVs. A TV is just a big monitor you plug into your PC (albeit, with 10 years of input lag, caused by the said software that should not exist). General purpose OS like Windows or Linux are a good enough interface to choose what video / stream to watch. You can use some software that runs on startup to provide support for a remote control or whatever comfy thing you think requires buying Samsung Garbage Half Working GUI T5007. This fact was stumbled upon by most 20 years ago (largely due to the warez scene, who unintentionally provided a better user experience than anything corpos could create). The idea of needing a special proprietary GUI is purely artificial. Smart TVs were trying to become a thing for 20 years (and had all the same insane security problems from the get go as with any industry who's software is driven by high churn newgrads). Various marketing pitches failed and failed until around 2010-2012 (can't remember). If you are a geek and are trying to jerry rig a modified proprietary Smart TV firmware into your TV, you have fallen for the marketing trick. There's no way you would have come up with an idea like this if they haven't previously marketed Smart TVs as a thing. A much better and easier effort would be to bypass all the garbage circuitry in modern TVs and monitors to ensure they are an actual useful product that can consume and deliver a video input.
- Epa095 5y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree! And still I use the webos apps on my LG to watch netflix, Disney, hbo and our national TV channel. It's weird how it goes. There is no getting away from the fact that as long as the app works on my TV its easier to install it and use the stock remote that doing something custom. And since it works OK for 99% of people, the TV producers will ad the little computer, and there will be nothing to save on buying a TV without (if you can even find one).
- aqfamnzc 5y ago
  > The solution to software in TVs is to have no software in TVs. A TV is just a big monitor you plug into your PC I disagree - I don't think there's anything wrong with having a computer built-in to a TV, as long as the user has control over it (Granted, they obviously don't right now). For the average user, it's going to be far more convenient to be able to stream or play offline media without having to connect an external device. I'm hopeful we'll reach a point where we can install an openwrt equivalent for easy, dark pattern free operation.
squarefoot 5y ago
The 1st goal of such software should be to neutralize and possibly remove all built-in malware/spyware, then disable any means that would allow the manufacturers to reinstall it or control the device in any way. A so called SmartTV must be able to 100% function without any Internet connection, and if having one it should benefit from it only in ways that are completely under the user control. Right now, there's a lot more junk that has to be removed rather than new functions to be added.

602 points by transpute 5y ago

free streaming sites + offline tv as monitor + an old thinkpad + vpn + Unified Remote app, is my setup. Better than any netflix and crapware as a service

stevesimmons 5y ago

I so want this for my Samsung TV... since they did a firmware update that puts ads into the source selection screen. And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred.

marceldegraaf 5y ago
Pro-tip: use a DNS provider that can block ads (e.g. NextDNS) or install Pi-Hole in your local network, and block Samsung's ad network domains. It's sad that this is necessary to keep enjoying a device of $2,000+ that you own, but it has worked beautifully for my Samsung Frame TV.
- josteink 5y ago
  Samsung does this for their top end models? WTF! I’ll put them on my list of devices to never buy then. Jeez.
  - patrickk 5y ago
    Samsung boasts about having Automatic Content Recognition[1] on their website. There was a discussion on HN some time ago, many/all major tv manufacturers suck in your viewing data via HDMI fingerprinting (IIRC) in order to serve up unblockable ads and sell your viewing profile to ad networks. Many tv makers send data to Chinese based servers too, from memory. It’s nuts. [1]https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-ad-retargeting/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-... Edit, more reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat...
  - ornornor 5y ago
    They do a lot more than that. In particular, they take a screenshot of what you’re currently watching at regular intervals and send it to a content recognition server. That way they’re able to tell what every single Samsung owner is watching at any given time and even if you’re watching a show you downloaded or something that’s not on the air. They then sell this data to broadcasters for measuring audience but also to show you ads related to what you’re watching (if you watched ice age, maybe they’ll advertise another animation movie to you). And they also use that data to target you on other devices you own because they’re able to use your tv as a Trojan horse and figure out what other devices are on your network and thus belong to the same person. IIRC they also scan and extract what devices are connected to hdmi ports so they know what consoles etc you’re using to further complete your advertising profile. That was several years ago, I can’t imagine they’ve gotten anything but even more data greedy over time. A good Samsung tv is an offline Samsung tv. A better Samsung tv is one you don’t own.
    - fnord123 5y ago
      This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe.
      - null_object 5y ago
        > This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe. I keep hoping this is gonna be the case, but the years roll on, I'm still clicking some stupid consent-popup on every single website I ever visit, and in the meantime TV manufacturers continuously spy on their users, sell their user-data, and push unwanted ads into their interface and even in programs being watched, and apparently no-one (apart from a few of us on HN) seems to care.
        Nullabillity 5y ago
        For what it's worth, at least on my Swedish model, this seems to be gated behind an opt-in (default off!) consent toggle. It was buried in several layers of menus, and not even mentioned during the setup process. So I would assume that this is mostly an issue in non-GDPR regions (or they're doing some really ugly legal shenanigans to ignore the denied consent?).
- sneak 5y ago
  Just don't connect your tv to any network, wired or wireless, ever. It's much simpler.
  - slig 5y ago
    It works until every device has a 5G chip on them.
    - snvzz 5y ago
      Or your neighbor's tv has internet access, and relays telemetry for yours.
    - konfusinomicon 5y ago
      then the pi hole won't even save you. we're going to need to go full on Faraday cage to escape their prying eyes!
    - burnt_toast 5y ago
      If it comes to that point I will open my devices and cut the antennas
      - yardstick 5y ago
        Or extract the eSIM / figure out a way to use it for free internet like some did with Amazon Kindle SIMs.
      - slig 5y ago
        And then you'll ruin your warrant.
        burnt_toast 5y ago
        Warranty doesn't mean much to me. I'm an outlier who enjoys repairing their own devices. I recently repaired a week old laptop that arrived faulty (trackpad was messed up) instead of mailing it back. I'd only cut the antennas in a last case scenario. It's more likely they'd have a connector or I'd try to de-solder them first.
3guk 5y ago
Disable Samsung TV Plus - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus - and you'll be most of the way there to removing a lot of the intrusive advertising that currently shows on the Samsung homescreen.
- superjan 5y ago
  I concur. This removed the auto play trailers on my parent’s TV.
Sander_Marechal 5y ago
That crap forced me to finally pi-hole my entire home. I'm never buying a Samsung TV ever again, or other Samsung stuff. My dryer broke yesterday. I specifically bought an AEG because it was a dumb dryer, not some smart appliance with an app and all that junk. Don't get me wrong, I love smart stuff. In fact, I plugged my new dryer into a Shelly S plug so my home assistant can send me a notification on my phone when it's finished. But I trust my HA. I can never trust Samsung again. Pi-hole your network for a week and take a look at the logs to see all the crap it has blocked. You'll be surprised.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I added PiHole on a RBP and it turns out up to half the rejected requests come from my various Samsung TVs. It's staggering how much traffic comes out of them. And that's in a home with two work from home adults in laptops all day. What are other people's experiences with other brands of TV?
  - gonehome 5y ago
    When I researched them a while back I came away with LG OLEDs being the best, particularly if you paired them with an Apple TV. There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options.
    - null_object 5y ago
      > There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options. Loewe[0] make really nice, simple, high-end TVs with great picture and sound, which really don't have intrusive 'smart' features. I use mine purely as a 'monitor' for AppleTV (and Nintendo Switch). The problem is distribution: they're difficult to source even within Europe. [0]https://www.loewe.tv/int https://www.loewe.tv/int
      - 4ggr0 5y ago
        My problem is, that I essentially want a dumb TV, but with gaming features, I guess the mix of my requirements is what makes it impossible. If someone knows a dumb, 120hz, GSync and OLED TV, let me know :)
LeonM 5y ago
> And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred. Don't forget that the HN crowd is not your average consumer. Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. They just want the best TV they can afford in terms of size and picture quality. With companies this big, who have been in the consumer electronics market for decades, you can be sure that every decision (like putting ads in a menu) is tested over and over. Obviously Samsung knows that they will loose a tiny percentage of the enthusiast market by placing ads. But the margin on the sale of a TV is pretty slim anyways, and multiple years of ad income for every sold unit is probably worth losing a small fraction of your audience.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  So funny story. I have two wifis in our house ( one piholed, one not ). One day my wife comes up to me asks me why there are ads on her game now ( she was using pihole all this time ). Edit: Turns out cable was pulled. People notice, but you have to re-condition them. I know adless hulu and netflix did their part in that fight.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  > Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. There's a difference between enjoying the current state and accepting the current state. A few years ago, while helping my grandmother find something online, I asked if she would want an adblocker installed. After explaining what it was, and what the effect was, she was over the moon for it. Ads are noticed by everyone, and are pretty universally despised. The difference is that you and I know that there are options, while less techy relatives assume that nothing can be changed.
- deergomoo 5y ago
  I generally agree, but they put that crap on TVs that cost well into the thousands. Surely it’s only enthusiasts buying those?
imglorp 5y ago
Here's more reasons to hate: it's a serious surveillance device. 1. It uploads voice samples. Don't say anything sensitive in the room. https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX 2.It uploads screenshots regardless of input. See other threads. 3.Front facing camera. Not kidding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY 4. Audio beacons? Old news. https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-every-movement/125484/ https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-... 5. Targeted ad market, selling you. https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-to-target-smart-tv-owners-with-ads-revealed-3939709 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-... 6. If you don't give it wifi, it may decide to find some by itself anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_smart_tvs_connect_to_open_wifi_networks_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_s...
- kall 5y ago
  This is all horrific, but I was especially shocked by 6 so I read that. This seems to be only someone asking if this may happen, and no one answering that it would. Of course this is the point of Amazon Sidewalk, so in due time, it probably will.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    I would expect a friendly nearby neighbor's TV which has network to be able to act as access point for other TVs surveillance facilities. They can technically do it, and I totally expect them to be doing it already.
    - lvass 5y ago
      The cheapest TV models mention access point as a feature nowadays, they're targeted to hotel rooms.
    - everybodyknows 5y ago
      Neighbor's TV, neighbor's Amazon Echo or Ring doorbell: https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> ads into the source selection screen Is there ever a point where these advertisers stop and think "no, this is too obnoxious"?
- reaperducer 5y ago
  The advertisers probably don't pick the placement. All they know is that their content is being shown on TVs.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    I assumed the TV manufacturers are also considered advertisers since the TVs show ads.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
The link also hosts the last (obsolete now?) SamyGo. So there is something at least, from where one could start, instead of reinventing the wheel from scratch. Don't know if it could be applied to current models at all. Not following that stuff, since not using TVs since 1996.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Glad to see some work on this. The most expensive Smart TV in my house is the worst one because LG refuses to support their TVs more than a couple years: All the new streaming apps are only available on newer TVs, even if they're far cheaper and less powerful. My experience with LG's TV software support may have driven me to Roku forever. Age old Rokus still tend to have fantastic app support and run modern versions of their OS.

square_usual 5y ago
> Age old Rokus still tend to have fantastic app support and run modern versions of their OS. Yes, because Roku's business model is getting into your living room to spy on you. Of course they'd like to do that for as long as possible!
- franga2000 5y ago
  It's the same with the TV vendors these days, only they want you to buy a new device every few years too.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  There's a menu setting to disable telemetry.
polished85 5y ago
I mostly agree, but recently I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Apple TV app became available on my 2017 50" LG. I was able to remove my Gen 3 Apple TV box. The only app I use that is still not available is HBO Max. For that I bring my daughter's PS4 into the room, but who knows maybe that will also become available.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  > The only app I use that is still not available is HBO Max. That’s a biggie. Isn’t it available on the AppleTV app? For myself, I only use my AppleTV (device), for streaming. I have an LG, but am not a fan of the weird WebOS UI, so I just leave it connected to the AppleTV.

xahrepap 5y ago

Here's what I want for custom firmware: nothing. I don't mean "I don't want custom firmware". I want custom firmware THAT DOES NOTHING. Turn the TV into a dumb monitor. Do nothing else. Don't make me wait X seconds long for the TV Software to boot. Because I don't want it. I don't need it. I have external devices that do everything I want.

anontrot 5y ago
I'm assuming you meant the smart part, and not the image processing part. And all other kinds of audio/video processing. If yes, even I'd love to have that!
deanc 5y ago
This “dumb tv” trope comes up in every one of these discussions. We are the minority and most people want a tv with a Netflix all and not to have to buy a set top box. There isn’t a market here.
- xahrepap 5y ago
  I bring it up here because they’re reversing the LG firmware and modifying it. I would love a fork of this work that does nothing. While a developer, this kind of work is outside my current wheelhouse and I just don’t have the time to learn and fork it myself. So throwing out my desire. Half hoping someone out there wants it more than I do.. and half just expressing my frustration with modern TVs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beezischillin 5y ago
  It's not really worth it for them to make dumb TVs either, I assume, since that implies they can't shove ads and telemetry into them.
  - black_puppydog 5y ago
    The point being exactly that since we're now entering a time where open source TV firmware is a thing, profit motives don't necessarily trump everything else anymore. Making a firmware that does "nothing" is probably less work than making one that does a lot of things. So even in the new currency (developer time) it might be cheap and make some people happy.

beezischillin 5y ago

I'd love a feature that would allow alphabetical sorting of channels. It's kind of ridiculous that this isn't possible on a 'smart' TV today.

kayson 5y ago

I hope this eventually leads to the ability to remove ads. It's unbelievable to me that you can pay top dollar for a high end OLED tv and it will still drown you in ads and notifications. I ended up just disconnecting my tv from the internet entirely and using a dedicated Roku Ultra for streaming.

ornornor 5y ago
Panasonic OLEDs are the same price as LG but they show no ads whatsoever, don’t have gimmicky menus, and turn on in 5 seconds flat.
- dkdbejwi383 5y ago
  They moved to Android since 2020.
  - adanto6840 5y ago
    Shouldn’t have to do this at all, obviously, but at least if it’s android then you’re just a few commands away from removing most anything. Used it to rid my Sony of all the annoyances and the continual “enable samba?” Prompts that kept coming up despite always choosing “disable” explicitly. Google for “adb remove ads <model/brand>” or similar. 20 minutes helped my wife not be annoyed at popovers on the TV, and saved me countless time looking for the OEM remote. :D
    - gonehome 5y ago
      I’ve found the android based TVs to be awful. Their boot up time is slow and they often seem to have trouble starting via the Apple TV remote.
- _puk 5y ago
  Haha, I find the recommendation for Panasonic for an ad free experience quite ironic. They were the first to go there circa 2013: boot screen, home screen and volume ads. But, they got a lot of backlash, and I doubt it was as lucrative as expected, so it appears they removed them in more recent years.

pabs3 5y ago

I hope the Software Freedom Conservancy lawsuit against Visio results in an open source distribution for TVs like there is OpenWRT for routers after their last lawsuit. Perhaps the OpenLGTV/SamyGO projects and other folks will join forces on a common distro for smart TVs. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/firmware-liberation.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/firmware-liber... https://www.samygo.tv/ https://www.samygo.tv/

tentacleuno 5y ago
> Perhaps the OpenLGTV/SamyGO projects and other folks will join forces on a common distro for smart TVs. What's wrong with webOS? I assume LG have "Googled"[0] it to some extent with proprietary software, but there's documentation, a lot of open-source stuff, and overall it doesn't look too bad. [0]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  Not parent, but I think I can respond. There is really nothing wrong with WebOS ( I actually find very good for my needs ), but the focus is not on having one decent OS we can mess around with as needed. The focus is on ensuring that users have actual control over their smart TVs. And this is where it gets fun. There is money to be made from harvesting data. Do you think companies will willingly give up the ability to keep 'users' in their grasp?
  - cassianoleal 5y ago
    > users have actual control over their smart TVs I would add to that future updates, etc as well. LG stops bringing in major WebOS versions for older models, so you miss out on features and apps that would have no problems running on the hardware.
    - 5y ago

Retr0id 5y ago

See also: https://github.com/webosbrew/webos-homebrew-channel https://github.com/webosbrew/webos-homebrew-channel - A GUI app for easily installing homebrew applications on LG WebOS TVs https://repo.webosbrew.org/apps/ https://repo.webosbrew.org/apps/ - A repo of such homebrew applications https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io - A one-click* LG TV rooting tool *firmware-version dependent, an updated exploit supporting "all" firmwares is in the pipeline.

Nursie 5y ago
That's interesting. To your knowlege does the rooting/installation of this stuff break existing streaming apps, or are they not affected?
- Retr0id 5y ago
  They are not affected.
anktor 5y ago
Does anyone know of anything equivalent for samsung? I have a QE65Q75T model which I feel gets more ads as the weeks go by, and I didn't know this type of things were possible
- Jleagle 5y ago
  Pihole?
  - anktor 5y ago
    That's something I'm looking, but I would also be able to personalize the UI of the TV, since it has a lot of clutter and things I am never going to use. Add to that the fact that some apps cannot be uninstalled and a tiny disk size, I would really like to "own" my tv more.
ig0r0 5y ago
Many thanks for this. Rooting my LG TV with rootmy.tv took a few seconds and now I am enjoying YouTube without ads which Pihole was never able block properly.

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Finally I can find out why the tv messes up the channel list by moving some channels at random after which any edit of the channel list will corrupt it even further…

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retSava 5y ago

I made https://github.com/msloth/lgtv.js https://github.com/msloth/lgtv.js which can control a webos LGTV on your local network. It was in my js beginnings so pretty sketchy and not at all clean. Once I was able to control it I kind of lost interest in making it more tweakable, cleaner interface etc, but there are others that did. At home I now run a small rpi0 with a telegram bot that, among other things, acts as a LGTV command proxy. So on my phone, I now tell my telegram bot eg "movie" which then puts the tv on the right input, sets volume, dims some hue lights and shows a nice float on the TV with a welcoming message. It's also useful when I can't find the physical remote, or to send messages like "dinner in 10" (that shows on the TV screen in a float) to a gaming child with selective hearing enabled :).

mjoin 5y ago
That way of communicating with your child is some black mirror shit
- retSava 5y ago
  Hehe, if that were the only modus of communication, yeah :). Thankfully it isn't, we are also known for leaving messages in the snow, ads in the local newspaper under pseudonyms, anon leetspeaks on the dark webs, and occasionally speaking with one another :). I do like Black mirror :)
- mkl 5y ago
  Why? It's just an instant message.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  If you prefer shouting up the stairs through multiple doors over whatever it is they're doing, that's your prerogative of course.
  - nsxwolf 5y ago
    Anyone remember home intercoms? They seemed to be incredibly popular in new home construction for awhile in the late 80s and early 90s where I live. They were very useful. They seemed to disappear without really being replaced by anything. I’m considering getting a bunch of HomePod Minis to try out the intercom function.

lifeisstillgood 5y ago

It's interesting that FOSS point inexorably towards what people want if only the interface was available - and it is clearly not what corporate decision makers want.

illuminated 5y ago

Is there any similar project covering Panasonic smart TV's?

lorek123 5y ago

I wonder if I could remap movies button on my remote so it won't try to install/open Rakuten TV and run other app instead.

rootsudo 5y ago

The same time, it's a bit sad that people are doing this and putting this much effort into a toxic product. I don't mind the fire stick/tv, and DNS rules but if it gets too much I just won't buy a tv and get rid of it. I get that it's a nice piece of furniture and such, but if it's hostile, expensive and after a few years becomes worthless - why bother. I'll fight by not purchasing a tv.

rxt_ian 5y ago
It's possible that buying the TV and removing the toxisity is more effective - you get the subsidised price, but the manufacturer never makes the ad money back.

bborud 5y ago

Given that modern TVs like to phone home a lot, and have microphones and cameras. I think an open source solution would be really nice to have.

martyvis 5y ago

Really like my 2020 LG TV. (First TV I have ever bought - I'm 58 and every other TV was either a gift, the 14" Sanyo from my parents-in-law in 1989, or hand-me-down) The one thing I'd like fixed is when I watch an in-progress scheduled recording, say 15 minutes behind real-time, the TV jumps in to live TV mode rather than continue to play the recording. I have to manually go and select the recording and then jog forward to the point I was watching. Seems a strange default, certainly different to Kodi. I've been meaning to write a bug report but it would be interesting if this project has a fix.

marcodiego 5y ago

This should not only be legal, this should be the law. A manufacturer/vendor should be obliged by law to hand out keys to allow the user to own the device that was bought.

sneak 5y ago
Consumers are already free to choose to buy from manufacturers that do this. Consumers largely dgaf. Additionally, companies like Apple know and believe that if consumers could exercise such control, a large number of them would be deceived into using such control to backdoor their own devices for advertisers and other shady characters, such as is the case in Android-land. Consumers often choose products specifically because they offer the feature that they are completely and totally managed by the vendor. You may not like it, but many people who don't care much about their privacy from the vendor do.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  > Consumers are already free to choose to buy from manufacturers that do this. Consumers largely dgaf. Can you point me one manufacturer whose is smart tv is simple for the user to replace the software it runs?
  - hjtkfkfmr 5y ago
    The fact that they don't exist should tell you something - paying consumers don't care about this. You sitting on the sideline are not a paying consumer, and there are two few like you for such a product. Remember that all TV started dumb, and SMART TV's were always premium products.
    - MereInterest 5y ago
      In Voltaire's "Candide", there is a character who insists that this is the best of all possible worlds. Every hurt you have ever felt, every illness and death anyone has experienced, everything is exactly as it should be. That neither humans nor God could improve upon the world as it is, because any change would make things worse somewhere else. As the story shows more and more tragedies, natural disasters, wars, and famines, this character needs to come up with increasingly convoluted explanations for how those can possibly exist in the best of all possible worlds. The reader sees just how foolish this idea is. The efficient market hypothesis to which you are alluding is just the same, stating that the market state is the best of all possible markets.

antihero 5y ago

I just wish I could get the auto-turn off timer to disable. I've disabled it everywhere in menus. Still, after a few hours of it being connected to my Apple TV 4K, it gives me the whole "TV will be turned off in five minutes unless you press a button on the controller" bullshit. Other than that I just want the thing to be a lowest-possible-latency, accuratest-possible-colour dumb display. No cool shit, just a dumb accurate fast panel.

maweki 5y ago
Maybe you could periodically give some remote control command through one of the WebOSTV python libraries. Needs networking though. Alternatively, an Arduino/ESP that sends a useless IR signal.
doikor 5y ago
If you can get your hands on a service remote it will allow you to access a menu to disable that and a bunch more (a lot of the OLED burnin prevention features you can’t normally fully disable)
- 0x53 5y ago
  If you have a phone with a IR blaster (mostly older LG phones) you have download an android app that with act as an LG service remote
  - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
    Some old Samsungs have it as well, such as the Galaxy S5.
  - heeen2 5y ago
    You can do it with a rpi, ir diode and resistor even. The tool for sending and receiving ir commands is called lirc
  - genewitch 5y ago
    Huawei and Xiaomi phones have IR blasters as well. I always try to buy phones that have those, because A) "i lost the remote" and B) "shut off every TV at the store" is hilarious. The first device i had that had this was a Palm, and it wasn't like "here's a remote control" it was "this 1 button will cycle every known TV IR code for the power button." Someone eventually released an actual IR blaster app for Palms, though.

Hakashiro 5y ago

Can someone explain to me how this is legal? I understand LG may not want to enforce IP laws, but something illegal is illegal regardless of perpetrators being punished or not. And to me this seems quite obviously to be a violation of international IP laws. Like I'm all for right to repair and whatnot but I don't even think the LG TOS/EULA allows you to do this? Correct me if I'm wrong.

RealityVoid 5y ago
What, more exactly, is illegal? Reverse engineering is not illegal (in no jurisdiction that I know of). And neither being in violation of a EULA or a TOS.
- Hakashiro 5y ago
  If the EULA explicitly states you are not allowed to reverse-engineer the product, which is so common I've never seen one that doesn't say so (I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I haven't see it) then... doing so is a breach of the terms and therefore illegal by definition.
  - RealityVoid 5y ago
    It's... debatable. EULA's are not enforceable usually. Just because something is mentioned in an EULA it does not mean it's the law.
    - Hakashiro 5y ago
      Apple is suing NSO because NSO employees created accounts violating iCloud's EULA.

jancsika 5y ago

I just hook my rpi up to the (non-smart) tv and use x2x over ssh to open Chromium from whatever device I'm running. What am I missing that open source version of smart-tv firmware/software would get me?

marcodiego 5y ago
Unfortunately non smart tv's are getting rarer and more expensive.
speeder 5y ago
1. Non-smart TVs are being hard to find. 2. most devices to plug into TVs are underpowered for some applications, for example I tried to transmit games from my PC to such devices, and they all introduced too much artifacting and input lag, TVs tend to have a bunch of ASIC/FPGA alongside their general processor to handle video and thus can perform better. 3. computers that CAN handle the previous use cases, often are very expensive anywya, so... in a sense doesn't make sense anymore, for example I looked into this and concluded the "cheapeast" option would be a rpi4 with more RAM and SSD... at the prices here it made more sense to buy a actual x86 computer instead.
- vbphprubyjsgo 5y ago
  What use case are you talking about? Plugging a chord from PC to TV will only have input lag due to the TV itself. No artifacting would be caused from this either. I can't imagine what "transmitting a game to such devices as a rasberry pi" means.
  - speeder 5y ago
    You send input from Pi to a PC elsewhere, then on that PC the game is running, instead of outputting to screen it instead writes to a compressed video stream and sends it back to the pi. Same thing for audio. Then the pi must uncompress the video and audio, convert to the format HDMI uses and send to TV. All that must be done in less than a millisecond, and depending on your TV model might require it to be done 120 or even 240 times per second.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vbphprubyjsgo 5y ago

> The main goal of the project is to improve the functionalities of the TVs by adding new features, fixing bugs and providing new software. The solution to software in TVs is to have no software in TVs. A TV is just a big monitor you plug into your PC (albeit, with 10 years of input lag, caused by the said software that should not exist). General purpose OS like Windows or Linux are a good enough interface to choose what video / stream to watch. You can use some software that runs on startup to provide support for a remote control or whatever comfy thing you think requires buying Samsung Garbage Half Working GUI T5007. This fact was stumbled upon by most 20 years ago (largely due to the warez scene, who unintentionally provided a better user experience than anything corpos could create). The idea of needing a special proprietary GUI is purely artificial. Smart TVs were trying to become a thing for 20 years (and had all the same insane security problems from the get go as with any industry who's software is driven by high churn newgrads). Various marketing pitches failed and failed until around 2010-2012 (can't remember). If you are a geek and are trying to jerry rig a modified proprietary Smart TV firmware into your TV, you have fallen for the marketing trick. There's no way you would have come up with an idea like this if they haven't previously marketed Smart TVs as a thing. A much better and easier effort would be to bypass all the garbage circuitry in modern TVs and monitors to ensure they are an actual useful product that can consume and deliver a video input.

Epa095 5y ago
I wholeheartedly agree! And still I use the webos apps on my LG to watch netflix, Disney, hbo and our national TV channel. It's weird how it goes. There is no getting away from the fact that as long as the app works on my TV its easier to install it and use the stock remote that doing something custom. And since it works OK for 99% of people, the TV producers will ad the little computer, and there will be nothing to save on buying a TV without (if you can even find one).
aqfamnzc 5y ago
> The solution to software in TVs is to have no software in TVs. A TV is just a big monitor you plug into your PC I disagree - I don't think there's anything wrong with having a computer built-in to a TV, as long as the user has control over it (Granted, they obviously don't right now). For the average user, it's going to be far more convenient to be able to stream or play offline media without having to connect an external device. I'm hopeful we'll reach a point where we can install an openwrt equivalent for easy, dark pattern free operation.

squarefoot 5y ago

The 1st goal of such software should be to neutralize and possibly remove all built-in malware/spyware, then disable any means that would allow the manufacturers to reinstall it or control the device in any way. A so called SmartTV must be able to 100% function without any Internet connection, and if having one it should benefit from it only in ways that are completely under the user control. Right now, there's a lot more junk that has to be removed rather than new functions to be added.