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System76 Reportedly Developing Their Own Rust-Written Desktop

223 points by sdht0 5y ago

bubblethink 5y ago
This is excellent news for the simple reason that the business goals are aligned for desktop linux. Nobody makes money on desktop linux and it's in a terrible state. Canonical gave up on this and is chasing snaps for servers, IoT, etc. RH also makes money only on servers. Other players are too small and won't have consistent revenue to invest any resources. If S76 becomes a successful h/w vendor, at least it is in their interest to make desktop suck less.
- xedrac 5y ago
  On the contrary, Linux desktop is in a much better state than Windows desktop in my opinion. Windows seems to get worse with every release, while Linux has been making slow and steady improvements. Perhaps I just value the control that Linux gives me more than the warm fuzzy people get knowing that 75% of the population uses their same OS.
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    Alt+Space, a little window pops up in the center of the screen (KRunner). I can type in math equations and I see their solution, I can get word definitions, I can launch apps and more. I have a file manager (Dolphin) with terminal integration, split views, and tabs. Going to Windows feels like a steep UX downgrade from KDE on Linux. :p
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lumost 5y ago
  Anecdotally, I suspect that there is a large enough super premium market for Linux laptops/workstations that look nice and just work. I love Linux, I haven't touched windows in 10 years. My last two forays in linuxhone computing were massive time sucks. I bought a razer blade and it took 1 year for the kernel to catch up with how the razer laptops manage lid closures. I love the system76 and pop is strategy of chasing a great experience for those who need Linux. I can't wait for them to release an in house laptop.
  - sadfev 5y ago
    Unfortunately the competitiveness of x86 for desktop is completely lost now. Apple has destroyed x86. If only Apple had a decent API for GPGPU programming!
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Business laptops such as Lenovo Thinkpad, HP EliteBook, and Dell Latitude already have great support, cheap parts if something breaks and 3rd party support is so good you can install coreboot on them due to hackers who ported them out of passion. This guide is for the x230 (I don’t recommend it due to the TN screens sucking, and the replacement batteries both their replacement is expensive). https://steemit.com/tutorial/@joeyd/run-don-t-walk-from-the-blob https://steemit.com/tutorial/@joeyd/run-don-t-walk-from-the-... https://doc.coreboot.org/distributions.html https://doc.coreboot.org/distributions.html > All ChromeOS devices (Chromebooks, Chromeboxes, Chromebit, etc) released from 2012 onward use coreboot for their main system firmware. Additionally, starting with the 2013 Chromebook Pixel, the firmware running on the Embedded Controller (EC) – a small microcontroller which provides functions like battery management, keyboard support, and sensor interfacing – is open source as well. Wow awesome, if you want good cheap OEM coreboot support, getting native ChromeOS laptops is the easiest.
    - lumost 5y ago
      I agree that good cheap chromebooks exist - however what I want doesn't really fall under the "business notebook", "gaming notebook" or "good cheap chromebook" category. I prefer what would typically be offered in a macbook or surface laptop form factor. While I can install linux on a macbook, razer, or surface laptop - it's not exactly a "clean" experience. In fact, even on an expensive "linux" laptop from dell I'm likely to still have a windows key! or non-functional windows hello sensors. Why shouldn't there be built for linux machines? Why should linux users need a tutorial to get their os running?
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        They don’t need a tutorial for most devices, Windows doesn’t work as well out of box either and has tons of hacks to make it run better, so it’s not harder compared to the norm, it’s actually easier. Besides it’s desktop Linux, it wasn’t “just works” for a long time but it’s that way if you do light research on a supported device, then everything works out of box. Linux is designed to support as much hardware as possible so what’s the purpose of buying more expensive hardware with less features if better hardware exists? You don’t need a tutorial, mostly if not all everything out of box works on Linux for every laptop and desktop I used (I don’t buy hardware newer than a few years for price and compatibility reasons) and setup is easier since there’s (almost) no drivers (fuck you Nvidia). It’s just a meta key with a different logo if it bothers you just put a sticker over it. I’d never complain about extra keys or an extra sensor (that can be supported later) and I’m not sure why it’s a problem in the first place. The tutorial linked was just if you wanted coreboot. The surface pro 3 I used had everything working out of box with Ubuntu (Gnome was great on touchscreen). It was very clean. I also love OSX, it is just like Linux for the most part except I can use more software and use the same CLI stuff I’d use on Linux. I don’t care to install it over OSX on a MacBook, is there something you find lacking on it?
- yoavm 5y ago
  Could be that I've been using Linux on the desktop for a long time and so I've gotten used to things, but I don't relate at all with the "desktop Linux is in a terrible state" statement. It works great for me, it's super functional, it's doesn't get in my way. Guess it's not for everyone (like everything), but on the other hand I'm pretty sure my mom would do perfectly fine with just surfing the internet, which is anyway what most people do nowadays. I feel it just took Linux too long, and frankly people have no reason to change, but it really isn't bad at all. Often helping my friends maintaining a virus/bloat/bug free environment on their Windows or Mac machines seems way more complicated.
  - bestouff 5y ago
    I totally agree with you. When I have to use a Windows desktop, I feel like being thrown into a mess with inconsistencies, advertisements and software generally working for somebody else than the user. MacOs feels better but way too limited. I love my Gnome desktop.
  - igetspam 5y ago
    My four year old and my wife both have Chromebooks that they use daily. I know it's not really a standard Linux distro but it's not far off from what I'm running (coincidentally being Pop_OS! now because I've grown too lazy for Slackware). Desktop Linux is far from terrible and, like you, I remember when it really was. I can remember when it was so bad that sticking to the console was often easier (printing, dial up, irc)
  - resonious 5y ago
    I hear so many complaints from my Mac and Windows-using colleagues that just don't happen to me on Linux. It really feels like the tables have turned. The Windows users bend over backwards just to use Linux (WSL) where the only Windows apps running are Google Chrome and VSCode (which also support Linux natively so ??). The Mac folks struggle with performance because of Docker using a VM with poor filesystem sync performance. Again, busting their backs just to use Linux. And it's worse now that they're using these M1 chips that segfault when our app uses FFI. These folks don't even like or use xcode or any mac-only software. I'm still a bit biased in that I know how to set up a good Linux machine and others might still struggle with that. But it really looks like they're already struggling.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  > Nobody makes money on desktop linux and it's in a terrible state. What's terrible about it? Fonts rendering? Or Wayland still not having "won" over XFree86/Xorg? I'm using Linux as my main computer since more than two decades and, if anything, desktop Linux is much better now than it used to be. Browsers and JetBrains' Java written IDE did a lot for that but even though I don't game I know people are playing games on Linux too. I mean: if you're a dev spending your life in browsers and IntelliJ IDEA (heck, or Emacs), Linux is sweet. Desktop Linux is the distant third player after Windows and OS X but what's terrible about it besides its small market share (on the desktop, servers and appliances being another story)?
  - JaggerJo 5y ago
    HiDPI screens are still an issue.
    - derekjdanserl 5y ago
      Not for me on Ubuntu 20.04. I use fractional scaling on my laptop and it works perfectly. Just prefer deb installers instead of flatpak and snap, because flatpak and snap aren’t ready yet. HiDPI works great.
    - grogenaut 5y ago
      I finally got them to work well in wayland (literally last night with sway) which supports different resolutions/scaling per monitor unlike xorg. Try out wayland on your desktop, that may be the last part you need. wdisplays to size things. This also seems to be an issue with (albeit likely main use) of running your monitor at double DPI, like you would with a laptop and side monitor. With a 43" 4k monitor and some old 2560x1440 27" monitors the default worked great. Now I just gotta figure out how to get my 2nd nvidia card working on my desktop to get that 5th monitor turned on. Yeah this is several hours of fiddling. I had this working years ago but things got broken, they seem to be on the way to getting fixed. And as other articles have said, I've spent as much or more time unf**ing python on windows, installing WSL2, etc. Really the only things holding me back from a full time windows box were pubg (not a reason now), fusion 360 (can use a VM), and 5+ monitors. If I get those monitors running it's go time. Luckily I have the same computer config at home and at work so it may happen.
- derekjdanserl 5y ago
  I am a recent convert to Linux Desktop and it doesn’t sound like you’ve used Linux Desktop lately. I use Ubuntu 20.04 and it is far better than Windows or macOS.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    It depends a lot on an individual’s needs/preferences. For example if one prefers a macOS-like environment with a global menubar and such, the closest they can probably get is heavily customized KDE, which will still have shortcomings like some apps not integrating with your global menubar. GNOME is closer to iPadOS than macOS, and elementary/Pantheon aesthetically resembles macOS but doesn’t function like it. There’s tons of options for Win9x desktop clones, though. The best of those IMO is Cinnamon, or if configured correctly XFCE and Budgie.
    - derekjdanserl 5y ago
      Well, sure, if you want macOS then macOS will be your best bet. I can’t imagine wanting that very particular and often very awkward top menu bar functionality. I was a heavily invested macOS user for many years and always found it a minor aggravation that I could only have one application’s menu bar up at a time.
      - kitsunesoba 5y ago
        It’s the other way around for me. I use 27”+ monitors most of the time, which makes maximizing windows a waste of screen real estate in most circumstances, so I tend to have odd sized windows which means chasing menubars around the screen under Windows and Linux. Also, increasingly Windows+Linux apps are eschewing menubars entirely in favor of hamburger menus or nothing at all (!!!) which is intensely frustrating. With a system-owned global menubar there’s no excuse for the developer to not have menus. Unfortunately many of the same apps that are resorting to hamburger menus don’t expose their menus through dbus or something similar which breaks global menubars in KDE and those added to other DEs with extensions. I really really wish there were an XDG standard for Linux apps to programmatically expose menus with.
- peakaboo 5y ago
  Terrible state? Then why am I enjoying using it over Windows and Mac OS every day, to the point I'm going out of my way to convince employers I need to use Linux to be effective? Windows is the most annoying and privacy neglecting operating system in the world, and Apple macbooks have so many random issues that our standus is about those weekly.
kzrdude 5y ago
That sounds fun as hell, but I'm not sure if it's a good use of time. Something I've noticed the last years is that people working on companies often don't do the most efficient thing, they do what they want to do, and make arguments for why it's good. And why not!
- nyxaiur 5y ago
  Imagine people working on stuff they like instead of slaving away in an agile shop. THE PRODUCTIVIY THINK ABOUT THE PRODUCTIVITY (metrics).
- JimBlackwood 5y ago
  I’d argue that projects that your employees want to do, but aren’t necessarily the most efficient thing, are incredibly important to do. Sometimes it’s hard for a company to know what is the most efficient use of time and what will make the most profit. Some of the projects I learned most from are because I thought it would be fun to do.
  - kzrdude 5y ago
    I think it's a good but it feels like an ever-unstated fact. We just keep quiet about that we do what we want to do, maybe what's fun, and find other ways to argue for it.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
This is great news. My subjective view of the desktop on linux is that: I find Gnome and Unity to be, frankly, quite unusable and hard to get into a place you can use. Sway is neat but requires skills and plenty of configuration. They really follow the unix way, which means you'll need a solid 3 days of work to get a desktop experience you enjoy. KDE is a fine desktop experience with ok defaults which can become great with a tiny bit of configuring. You can see a lot of lack of polish and half baked product ideas from the 4.0 ear. I get it, it's OSS and people will pick the problems they like to solve. Not many people get excited about figuring out the optimal amount of padding in UIs and almost everyone would like to invent something novel - like KDE's activities, on which I wasted a significant amount of time, just trying to get them to disappear forever from my desktop. Qt is definitely the most mature and complete solution to write GUIs in the world but the Rust bindings are barely working and something like conrod-core could be a good base for a desktop. Having a profitable making money creating a polished linux desktop experience sounds simply amazing - and exactly what we need. Hopefully between this and Valve's work on the SteamDeck, things will improve for the linux desktop.
andrewclunn 5y ago
This is more than just a new desktop environment. This is a new windowing system. This isn't like replacing KDE or Gnome. It's like replacing gtk or qt (though of course qt and gtk apps will run under this environment I'm sure). Considering how opinionated and integrate qt and gnome have become as of late, I applaud that move. I prefer Pantheon myself, but think that the built in "desktop" should be separate from the standard library various apps run in (for several reasons). Let a thousand flowers bloom indeed.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
I think people are correctly stating that desktop Linux problems are not correctly addressed, and their own desktop environment is unlikely to make a positive difference. Its essentially a hobby rust project of a tech company, no different than something like project ARA in google except its in software. System76 made it easier for some users to use with simple QOL features like by bundling the nvidia driver, and some addons for gnome, but their hardware is nothing special (Clevo OEM with 1080p screens, their laptop doesn't seem to have good aftermarket or even the option to replace the keyboard, the battery is internal only, the aftermarket for repair is going to be very expensive), not priced competitively, Windows default hardware like the Thinkpad I use don't lack any compatibility and I never had an issue with any Intel computers in the last decade. A business class laptop with a good aftermarket from OEMs such as the Thinkpad, Elitebook, and Latitude will allow your Linux laptop to have a very long lifespan since you can supply it with cheap replacement parts. They are not going to be able to replicate that aspect unless they sell as many laptops for years, although its possible they could just have computers that adapt to those parts I doubt that will happen. I support their removal of Intel ME, its probably a reaction to Dell offering the same for their hardware, but its differentiation that is refreshing is that its a company sells a coreboot computer. https://blog.system76.com/post/168050597573/system76-me-firmware-updates-plan https://blog.system76.com/post/168050597573/system76-me-firm... The Linux desktop has a fragmented problem and this is going to fragment it more. Linux for servers rallied around universal CLI interfaces, and the most usable and successful consumer Linux is android (you can install launchers but they all hook the same way and there is a default). Pinephone and Librem do the opposite and are essentially imitating ways that failed desktop Linux and are doomed to fail by fragmenting phone GUIs. Every problem will cause a fork and nothing users care about will be fixed, but you’ll be able to and essentially forced to make decisions about the many interfaces, how every fork has another way of doing it differently, and because they’re all essentially nothing more than patches that didn’t get upstreamed they’ll be abandoned.
- tarkin2 5y ago
  > I think people are correctly stating that Linux problems are not correctly addressed For example?
tarkin2 5y ago
What do they mean by Desktop? File manager and other tools? How will Rust help in this specific case? Or is it a case of the developers like Rust?
- willmorrison 5y ago
  System76 developers like Rust. Many of their tools (daemons, CLIs, etc) use Rust. It would also help in this case because if it’s safety.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > How will Rust help in this specific case? Here's an answer that's sure to enrage people: it's not C. I get the hate for Rust. I really do, I use the language on a near-daily basis and run into it's edge cases pretty frequently. However, I'd prefer to write in Rust over C/C++ any day of the week, and I get the feeling that a lot of System76 developers feel the same way. If the name of the game is rapid iteration, C is not going to be a sane choice for your project these days, at least compared to the competition. As more and more languages step up to fill in the gaps, we're starting to see a world where "safe" and "useless" are not mutually exclusive features. To that end, C has become quite antiquated for modern development.
  - hajile 5y ago
    Don't forget that using GTK with C is basically switching to a dynamically-typed language too. Everything is void pointers so you can pass various kinds of GTK structs around. This leaves you either checking the component type constantly or running the risk of something going very wrong. With Rust, you can test against the specific types being passed around giving you the best of both worlds where you have static typing that is missing in C and you have the performance of those type checks compiling away.
filereaper 5y ago
I hope System76 will allow us to install this or offer subscription support for a yearly/monthly fee. My employer dictates which hardware we buy due to the IT team's limitations, but we're allowed to choose which software we run. I'm mainly looking for POP_Os or equivalent running on a Thinkpad and would happily pay for a monthly/yearly subscription for features and bug fixes.
- akdor1154 5y ago
  You can contribute to Pop with a $12 yearly subscription/donation. It doesn't get you support/etc though.
  - filereaper 5y ago
    I actually do want input into features rtc... Happy to pay for it and will provide bug reports etc.. I don't work on Linux desktops as a day job and won't have the bandwidth to contribute code but I'd like features, hardware support etc... Happy to pay a higher subscription fee for it.
happyjack 5y ago
I think it is awesome that a company is selling Linux laptops AND developing their own OS. On the other hand, I think "oh gosh there goes more fragmentation in Linux UI / desktop world." If System76 has the $ and support to write the software, good on them. I have a Thelio desktop (running RHEL 8) and my wife a laptop running their Pop!OS. Their customer support is outstanding, and I hope that translates into their software projects!
jeroenhd 5y ago
Does the Linux ecosystem really need yet another desktop environment? I get that sometimes a group of volunteers and enthusiasts get together to start such a project, but how does it make sense for a business like System76 to write their own instead of forking a different DE with decent support already? There are so many desktop environments already, all causing grief for anyone trying to switch to Linux with their own stupid choices and incompatibilities. It's probably too early to say anything about System76's project, but I fear it'll only complicate Linux adoption more, hurting their own sales in the long term.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Maybe a whatwg equivalent for desktop ux is needed ?
- fulafel 5y ago
  > There are so many desktop environments already, all causing grief for anyone trying to switch to Linux with their own stupid choices and incompatibilities. The current desktop environment situation is more uniform than ever and the situation is quite good and easy for users. Ubuntu and Fedora + RHEL are all-in on Gnome with no changes to the situation in sight, and KDE is a high quality runner up with users enjoying good compatibility between these. Most specialized desktop distros like SteamOS, Clear Linux, etc are also Gnome.
- landemva 5y ago
  I agree that yet another desktop is not needed. Jeff Booth's recent book discusses that a challenger needs a 10x advantage to overtake a large incumbent. Can another desktop, this with Rust, bring 10x? This looks like another distraction and splintering of focus.
  - sjcoles 5y ago
    Feels like we're in a bit of a local minima when it comes to the design and functionality of a desktop. Getting out of that local minima will take a lot of effort. I don't know if there's much advantage to give outside of a paradigm switch in how windowing works a la tiling. Even then tiling isn't for everyone or every task. I do have many users in my day job on Linux laptops/VDI (Gnome 3/Mate) with no experience prior and they have adapted fantastically. So much easier to support than Windows.
smallerfish 5y ago
I quite like PopOS and also their extension on top of Gnome Shell. I can get that Gnome is frustrating to work with. I'd love to know why they discounted switching KDE. NIH? Outdated biases around the QT license? Or something about the codebase that doesn't fit core objectives?
- alexmcc81 5y ago
  They don't even need to switch to Plasma. KDE is build on libraries [1] that build on Qt. You can build a custom desktop environment like LXQt [1] from them. [1] https://develop.kde.org/products/frameworks/ https://develop.kde.org/products/frameworks/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt#/media/File:LXQt_0.10_-_Ambiance.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt#/media/File:LXQt_0.10_-_A...
- scythe 5y ago
  AFAIK they're sticking with Gtk. This answers the other question too: they want Gtk apps to continue to feel native. Gtk in turn is winning probably because of license worries. So you could call it systemic bias.
- IiydAbITMvJkqKf 5y ago
  Gtk and qt are both LGPL. If I had to guess I assume the problem is C++.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    Lack of bindings is a big problem with Qt that often gets ignored. Generally speaking people don’t want to write C++, even if Qt is nicer than average for writing UI with.
    - scythe 5y ago
      In theory it should be possible to use TypeScript or ClojureScript on top of QML. It's beyond my knowledge if this is enough to write applications. A few people have done some work in this regard, but none of the projects really took off: https://groups.google.com/g/clojurescript/c/bSBfH1hazSg https://groups.google.com/g/clojurescript/c/bSBfH1hazSg https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/erdo6t/desktop_apps_in_clojurescript_and_qt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/erdo6t/desktop_app... https://bugreports.qt.io/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/QTBUG-63600 https://bugreports.qt.io/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/QTBUG-...
fsflover 5y ago
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29131594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29131594. Pop _OS to use it own desktop environment, written in Rust (reddit.com) 158 points by tuananh 18 hours ago | 128 comments
paulgb 5y ago
As far as I can tell, this is the extent of what’s been discussed in public (mmstick is a System76 engineer) > mmstick: It will be its own desktop. > SevenSidedSube: Will the DE be forked from GNOME? > mmstick: No it is its own thing written in Rust. If nothing else, it’s encouraging to see a large GUI project in Rust as it will surely lift the (nascent) state of the art there in that area. In the best case, maybe this will get me back on Linux for the desktop.
- Nux 5y ago
  Good to see it's not following gnome. V3/4 are a disaster.
  - unixbane 5y ago
    ... which GTK is a part of, regardless of what desktop (what does that even mean?) you use. on a mid range off the shelf laptop, practically any GTK based program is unusable because it's too slow, even in a minimal tiling WM. i guess gnome advocates would consider GTK as a high end application, but i digress.
    - Nux 5y ago
      GTK3 is indeed slow. GTK2 is fast and Gnome2 was fast (MATE is fast).
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      I’m not exactly a fan of GTK but this surprises me. I toy with Linux on an old circa-2008 QX9300/Quadro FX770M laptop from time to time and can’t recall GTK3 apps being particularly slow on it. GNOME itself is a bit sluggish but that’s no surprise.
- cle 5y ago
  What end-user problems are they solving though? I only see some quibbles about customization/theming, which seems like an insane reason to drop the entire stack and write one from scratch. From the information given, this just seems like riding the Rust hype wave.
schaefer 5y ago
This is news to me, but not surprising. After all, Jeremy Soller (A.K.A Jackpot51), is both a system 76 engineer and a long time contributor to Redox OS. Redox is a rust native OS[1]. [1] https://www.redox-os.org/screens/ https://www.redox-os.org/screens/
emptyparadise 5y ago
Interested to see a modern take on Linux desktop that's neither irritatingly minimalist or constantly breaking things with every update.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Haven’t has that issue with KDE, gnome is always breaking their compatibility with new GTK versions, while QT supports legacy so well that car manufacturers use it to make their interfaces.
  - dym_sh 5y ago
    its not like cars getting more firmware updates than phones, and version-lock on LTS version of QT is more than just likely for the entire lifecycle of model row

223 points by sdht0 5y ago

This is excellent news for the simple reason that the business goals are aligned for desktop linux. Nobody makes money on desktop linux and it's in a terrible state. Canonical gave up on this and is chasing snaps for servers, IoT, etc. RH also makes money only on servers. Other players are too small and won't have consistent revenue to invest any resources. If S76 becomes a successful h/w vendor, at least it is in their interest to make desktop suck less.

xedrac 5y ago
On the contrary, Linux desktop is in a much better state than Windows desktop in my opinion. Windows seems to get worse with every release, while Linux has been making slow and steady improvements. Perhaps I just value the control that Linux gives me more than the warm fuzzy people get knowing that 75% of the population uses their same OS.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Alt+Space, a little window pops up in the center of the screen (KRunner). I can type in math equations and I see their solution, I can get word definitions, I can launch apps and more. I have a file manager (Dolphin) with terminal integration, split views, and tabs. Going to Windows feels like a steep UX downgrade from KDE on Linux. :p
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lumost 5y ago
Anecdotally, I suspect that there is a large enough super premium market for Linux laptops/workstations that look nice and just work. I love Linux, I haven't touched windows in 10 years. My last two forays in linuxhone computing were massive time sucks. I bought a razer blade and it took 1 year for the kernel to catch up with how the razer laptops manage lid closures. I love the system76 and pop is strategy of chasing a great experience for those who need Linux. I can't wait for them to release an in house laptop.
- sadfev 5y ago
  Unfortunately the competitiveness of x86 for desktop is completely lost now. Apple has destroyed x86. If only Apple had a decent API for GPGPU programming!
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Business laptops such as Lenovo Thinkpad, HP EliteBook, and Dell Latitude already have great support, cheap parts if something breaks and 3rd party support is so good you can install coreboot on them due to hackers who ported them out of passion. This guide is for the x230 (I don’t recommend it due to the TN screens sucking, and the replacement batteries both their replacement is expensive). https://steemit.com/tutorial/@joeyd/run-don-t-walk-from-the-blob https://steemit.com/tutorial/@joeyd/run-don-t-walk-from-the-... https://doc.coreboot.org/distributions.html https://doc.coreboot.org/distributions.html > All ChromeOS devices (Chromebooks, Chromeboxes, Chromebit, etc) released from 2012 onward use coreboot for their main system firmware. Additionally, starting with the 2013 Chromebook Pixel, the firmware running on the Embedded Controller (EC) – a small microcontroller which provides functions like battery management, keyboard support, and sensor interfacing – is open source as well. Wow awesome, if you want good cheap OEM coreboot support, getting native ChromeOS laptops is the easiest.
  - lumost 5y ago
    I agree that good cheap chromebooks exist - however what I want doesn't really fall under the "business notebook", "gaming notebook" or "good cheap chromebook" category. I prefer what would typically be offered in a macbook or surface laptop form factor. While I can install linux on a macbook, razer, or surface laptop - it's not exactly a "clean" experience. In fact, even on an expensive "linux" laptop from dell I'm likely to still have a windows key! or non-functional windows hello sensors. Why shouldn't there be built for linux machines? Why should linux users need a tutorial to get their os running?
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      They don’t need a tutorial for most devices, Windows doesn’t work as well out of box either and has tons of hacks to make it run better, so it’s not harder compared to the norm, it’s actually easier. Besides it’s desktop Linux, it wasn’t “just works” for a long time but it’s that way if you do light research on a supported device, then everything works out of box. Linux is designed to support as much hardware as possible so what’s the purpose of buying more expensive hardware with less features if better hardware exists? You don’t need a tutorial, mostly if not all everything out of box works on Linux for every laptop and desktop I used (I don’t buy hardware newer than a few years for price and compatibility reasons) and setup is easier since there’s (almost) no drivers (fuck you Nvidia). It’s just a meta key with a different logo if it bothers you just put a sticker over it. I’d never complain about extra keys or an extra sensor (that can be supported later) and I’m not sure why it’s a problem in the first place. The tutorial linked was just if you wanted coreboot. The surface pro 3 I used had everything working out of box with Ubuntu (Gnome was great on touchscreen). It was very clean. I also love OSX, it is just like Linux for the most part except I can use more software and use the same CLI stuff I’d use on Linux. I don’t care to install it over OSX on a MacBook, is there something you find lacking on it?
yoavm 5y ago
Could be that I've been using Linux on the desktop for a long time and so I've gotten used to things, but I don't relate at all with the "desktop Linux is in a terrible state" statement. It works great for me, it's super functional, it's doesn't get in my way. Guess it's not for everyone (like everything), but on the other hand I'm pretty sure my mom would do perfectly fine with just surfing the internet, which is anyway what most people do nowadays. I feel it just took Linux too long, and frankly people have no reason to change, but it really isn't bad at all. Often helping my friends maintaining a virus/bloat/bug free environment on their Windows or Mac machines seems way more complicated.
- bestouff 5y ago
  I totally agree with you. When I have to use a Windows desktop, I feel like being thrown into a mess with inconsistencies, advertisements and software generally working for somebody else than the user. MacOs feels better but way too limited. I love my Gnome desktop.
- igetspam 5y ago
  My four year old and my wife both have Chromebooks that they use daily. I know it's not really a standard Linux distro but it's not far off from what I'm running (coincidentally being Pop_OS! now because I've grown too lazy for Slackware). Desktop Linux is far from terrible and, like you, I remember when it really was. I can remember when it was so bad that sticking to the console was often easier (printing, dial up, irc)
- resonious 5y ago
  I hear so many complaints from my Mac and Windows-using colleagues that just don't happen to me on Linux. It really feels like the tables have turned. The Windows users bend over backwards just to use Linux (WSL) where the only Windows apps running are Google Chrome and VSCode (which also support Linux natively so ??). The Mac folks struggle with performance because of Docker using a VM with poor filesystem sync performance. Again, busting their backs just to use Linux. And it's worse now that they're using these M1 chips that segfault when our app uses FFI. These folks don't even like or use xcode or any mac-only software. I'm still a bit biased in that I know how to set up a good Linux machine and others might still struggle with that. But it really looks like they're already struggling.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> Nobody makes money on desktop linux and it's in a terrible state. What's terrible about it? Fonts rendering? Or Wayland still not having "won" over XFree86/Xorg? I'm using Linux as my main computer since more than two decades and, if anything, desktop Linux is much better now than it used to be. Browsers and JetBrains' Java written IDE did a lot for that but even though I don't game I know people are playing games on Linux too. I mean: if you're a dev spending your life in browsers and IntelliJ IDEA (heck, or Emacs), Linux is sweet. Desktop Linux is the distant third player after Windows and OS X but what's terrible about it besides its small market share (on the desktop, servers and appliances being another story)?
- JaggerJo 5y ago
  HiDPI screens are still an issue.
  - derekjdanserl 5y ago
    Not for me on Ubuntu 20.04. I use fractional scaling on my laptop and it works perfectly. Just prefer deb installers instead of flatpak and snap, because flatpak and snap aren’t ready yet. HiDPI works great.
  - grogenaut 5y ago
    I finally got them to work well in wayland (literally last night with sway) which supports different resolutions/scaling per monitor unlike xorg. Try out wayland on your desktop, that may be the last part you need. wdisplays to size things. This also seems to be an issue with (albeit likely main use) of running your monitor at double DPI, like you would with a laptop and side monitor. With a 43" 4k monitor and some old 2560x1440 27" monitors the default worked great. Now I just gotta figure out how to get my 2nd nvidia card working on my desktop to get that 5th monitor turned on. Yeah this is several hours of fiddling. I had this working years ago but things got broken, they seem to be on the way to getting fixed. And as other articles have said, I've spent as much or more time unf**ing python on windows, installing WSL2, etc. Really the only things holding me back from a full time windows box were pubg (not a reason now), fusion 360 (can use a VM), and 5+ monitors. If I get those monitors running it's go time. Luckily I have the same computer config at home and at work so it may happen.
derekjdanserl 5y ago
I am a recent convert to Linux Desktop and it doesn’t sound like you’ve used Linux Desktop lately. I use Ubuntu 20.04 and it is far better than Windows or macOS.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  It depends a lot on an individual’s needs/preferences. For example if one prefers a macOS-like environment with a global menubar and such, the closest they can probably get is heavily customized KDE, which will still have shortcomings like some apps not integrating with your global menubar. GNOME is closer to iPadOS than macOS, and elementary/Pantheon aesthetically resembles macOS but doesn’t function like it. There’s tons of options for Win9x desktop clones, though. The best of those IMO is Cinnamon, or if configured correctly XFCE and Budgie.
  - derekjdanserl 5y ago
    Well, sure, if you want macOS then macOS will be your best bet. I can’t imagine wanting that very particular and often very awkward top menu bar functionality. I was a heavily invested macOS user for many years and always found it a minor aggravation that I could only have one application’s menu bar up at a time.
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      It’s the other way around for me. I use 27”+ monitors most of the time, which makes maximizing windows a waste of screen real estate in most circumstances, so I tend to have odd sized windows which means chasing menubars around the screen under Windows and Linux. Also, increasingly Windows+Linux apps are eschewing menubars entirely in favor of hamburger menus or nothing at all (!!!) which is intensely frustrating. With a system-owned global menubar there’s no excuse for the developer to not have menus. Unfortunately many of the same apps that are resorting to hamburger menus don’t expose their menus through dbus or something similar which breaks global menubars in KDE and those added to other DEs with extensions. I really really wish there were an XDG standard for Linux apps to programmatically expose menus with.
peakaboo 5y ago
Terrible state? Then why am I enjoying using it over Windows and Mac OS every day, to the point I'm going out of my way to convince employers I need to use Linux to be effective? Windows is the most annoying and privacy neglecting operating system in the world, and Apple macbooks have so many random issues that our standus is about those weekly.

kzrdude 5y ago

That sounds fun as hell, but I'm not sure if it's a good use of time. Something I've noticed the last years is that people working on companies often don't do the most efficient thing, they do what they want to do, and make arguments for why it's good. And why not!

nyxaiur 5y ago
Imagine people working on stuff they like instead of slaving away in an agile shop. THE PRODUCTIVIY THINK ABOUT THE PRODUCTIVITY (metrics).
JimBlackwood 5y ago
I’d argue that projects that your employees want to do, but aren’t necessarily the most efficient thing, are incredibly important to do. Sometimes it’s hard for a company to know what is the most efficient use of time and what will make the most profit. Some of the projects I learned most from are because I thought it would be fun to do.
- kzrdude 5y ago
  I think it's a good but it feels like an ever-unstated fact. We just keep quiet about that we do what we want to do, maybe what's fun, and find other ways to argue for it.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

This is great news. My subjective view of the desktop on linux is that: I find Gnome and Unity to be, frankly, quite unusable and hard to get into a place you can use. Sway is neat but requires skills and plenty of configuration. They really follow the unix way, which means you'll need a solid 3 days of work to get a desktop experience you enjoy. KDE is a fine desktop experience with ok defaults which can become great with a tiny bit of configuring. You can see a lot of lack of polish and half baked product ideas from the 4.0 ear. I get it, it's OSS and people will pick the problems they like to solve. Not many people get excited about figuring out the optimal amount of padding in UIs and almost everyone would like to invent something novel - like KDE's activities, on which I wasted a significant amount of time, just trying to get them to disappear forever from my desktop. Qt is definitely the most mature and complete solution to write GUIs in the world but the Rust bindings are barely working and something like conrod-core could be a good base for a desktop. Having a profitable making money creating a polished linux desktop experience sounds simply amazing - and exactly what we need. Hopefully between this and Valve's work on the SteamDeck, things will improve for the linux desktop.

andrewclunn 5y ago

This is more than just a new desktop environment. This is a new windowing system. This isn't like replacing KDE or Gnome. It's like replacing gtk or qt (though of course qt and gtk apps will run under this environment I'm sure). Considering how opinionated and integrate qt and gnome have become as of late, I applaud that move. I prefer Pantheon myself, but think that the built in "desktop" should be separate from the standard library various apps run in (for several reasons). Let a thousand flowers bloom indeed.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

I think people are correctly stating that desktop Linux problems are not correctly addressed, and their own desktop environment is unlikely to make a positive difference. Its essentially a hobby rust project of a tech company, no different than something like project ARA in google except its in software. System76 made it easier for some users to use with simple QOL features like by bundling the nvidia driver, and some addons for gnome, but their hardware is nothing special (Clevo OEM with 1080p screens, their laptop doesn't seem to have good aftermarket or even the option to replace the keyboard, the battery is internal only, the aftermarket for repair is going to be very expensive), not priced competitively, Windows default hardware like the Thinkpad I use don't lack any compatibility and I never had an issue with any Intel computers in the last decade. A business class laptop with a good aftermarket from OEMs such as the Thinkpad, Elitebook, and Latitude will allow your Linux laptop to have a very long lifespan since you can supply it with cheap replacement parts. They are not going to be able to replicate that aspect unless they sell as many laptops for years, although its possible they could just have computers that adapt to those parts I doubt that will happen. I support their removal of Intel ME, its probably a reaction to Dell offering the same for their hardware, but its differentiation that is refreshing is that its a company sells a coreboot computer. https://blog.system76.com/post/168050597573/system76-me-firmware-updates-plan https://blog.system76.com/post/168050597573/system76-me-firm... The Linux desktop has a fragmented problem and this is going to fragment it more. Linux for servers rallied around universal CLI interfaces, and the most usable and successful consumer Linux is android (you can install launchers but they all hook the same way and there is a default). Pinephone and Librem do the opposite and are essentially imitating ways that failed desktop Linux and are doomed to fail by fragmenting phone GUIs. Every problem will cause a fork and nothing users care about will be fixed, but you’ll be able to and essentially forced to make decisions about the many interfaces, how every fork has another way of doing it differently, and because they’re all essentially nothing more than patches that didn’t get upstreamed they’ll be abandoned.

tarkin2 5y ago
> I think people are correctly stating that Linux problems are not correctly addressed For example?

tarkin2 5y ago

What do they mean by Desktop? File manager and other tools? How will Rust help in this specific case? Or is it a case of the developers like Rust?

willmorrison 5y ago
System76 developers like Rust. Many of their tools (daemons, CLIs, etc) use Rust. It would also help in this case because if it’s safety.
smoldesu 5y ago
> How will Rust help in this specific case? Here's an answer that's sure to enrage people: it's not C. I get the hate for Rust. I really do, I use the language on a near-daily basis and run into it's edge cases pretty frequently. However, I'd prefer to write in Rust over C/C++ any day of the week, and I get the feeling that a lot of System76 developers feel the same way. If the name of the game is rapid iteration, C is not going to be a sane choice for your project these days, at least compared to the competition. As more and more languages step up to fill in the gaps, we're starting to see a world where "safe" and "useless" are not mutually exclusive features. To that end, C has become quite antiquated for modern development.
- hajile 5y ago
  Don't forget that using GTK with C is basically switching to a dynamically-typed language too. Everything is void pointers so you can pass various kinds of GTK structs around. This leaves you either checking the component type constantly or running the risk of something going very wrong. With Rust, you can test against the specific types being passed around giving you the best of both worlds where you have static typing that is missing in C and you have the performance of those type checks compiling away.

filereaper 5y ago

I hope System76 will allow us to install this or offer subscription support for a yearly/monthly fee. My employer dictates which hardware we buy due to the IT team's limitations, but we're allowed to choose which software we run. I'm mainly looking for POP_Os or equivalent running on a Thinkpad and would happily pay for a monthly/yearly subscription for features and bug fixes.

akdor1154 5y ago
You can contribute to Pop with a $12 yearly subscription/donation. It doesn't get you support/etc though.
- filereaper 5y ago
  I actually do want input into features rtc... Happy to pay for it and will provide bug reports etc.. I don't work on Linux desktops as a day job and won't have the bandwidth to contribute code but I'd like features, hardware support etc... Happy to pay a higher subscription fee for it.

happyjack 5y ago

I think it is awesome that a company is selling Linux laptops AND developing their own OS. On the other hand, I think "oh gosh there goes more fragmentation in Linux UI / desktop world." If System76 has the $ and support to write the software, good on them. I have a Thelio desktop (running RHEL 8) and my wife a laptop running their Pop!OS. Their customer support is outstanding, and I hope that translates into their software projects!

jeroenhd 5y ago

Does the Linux ecosystem really need yet another desktop environment? I get that sometimes a group of volunteers and enthusiasts get together to start such a project, but how does it make sense for a business like System76 to write their own instead of forking a different DE with decent support already? There are so many desktop environments already, all causing grief for anyone trying to switch to Linux with their own stupid choices and incompatibilities. It's probably too early to say anything about System76's project, but I fear it'll only complicate Linux adoption more, hurting their own sales in the long term.

agumonkey 5y ago
Maybe a whatwg equivalent for desktop ux is needed ?
fulafel 5y ago
> There are so many desktop environments already, all causing grief for anyone trying to switch to Linux with their own stupid choices and incompatibilities. The current desktop environment situation is more uniform than ever and the situation is quite good and easy for users. Ubuntu and Fedora + RHEL are all-in on Gnome with no changes to the situation in sight, and KDE is a high quality runner up with users enjoying good compatibility between these. Most specialized desktop distros like SteamOS, Clear Linux, etc are also Gnome.
landemva 5y ago
I agree that yet another desktop is not needed. Jeff Booth's recent book discusses that a challenger needs a 10x advantage to overtake a large incumbent. Can another desktop, this with Rust, bring 10x? This looks like another distraction and splintering of focus.
- sjcoles 5y ago
  Feels like we're in a bit of a local minima when it comes to the design and functionality of a desktop. Getting out of that local minima will take a lot of effort. I don't know if there's much advantage to give outside of a paradigm switch in how windowing works a la tiling. Even then tiling isn't for everyone or every task. I do have many users in my day job on Linux laptops/VDI (Gnome 3/Mate) with no experience prior and they have adapted fantastically. So much easier to support than Windows.

smallerfish 5y ago

I quite like PopOS and also their extension on top of Gnome Shell. I can get that Gnome is frustrating to work with. I'd love to know why they discounted switching KDE. NIH? Outdated biases around the QT license? Or something about the codebase that doesn't fit core objectives?

alexmcc81 5y ago
They don't even need to switch to Plasma. KDE is build on libraries [1] that build on Qt. You can build a custom desktop environment like LXQt [1] from them. [1] https://develop.kde.org/products/frameworks/ https://develop.kde.org/products/frameworks/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt#/media/File:LXQt_0.10_-_Ambiance.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt#/media/File:LXQt_0.10_-_A...
scythe 5y ago
AFAIK they're sticking with Gtk. This answers the other question too: they want Gtk apps to continue to feel native. Gtk in turn is winning probably because of license worries. So you could call it systemic bias.
IiydAbITMvJkqKf 5y ago
Gtk and qt are both LGPL. If I had to guess I assume the problem is C++.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  Lack of bindings is a big problem with Qt that often gets ignored. Generally speaking people don’t want to write C++, even if Qt is nicer than average for writing UI with.
  - scythe 5y ago
    In theory it should be possible to use TypeScript or ClojureScript on top of QML. It's beyond my knowledge if this is enough to write applications. A few people have done some work in this regard, but none of the projects really took off: https://groups.google.com/g/clojurescript/c/bSBfH1hazSg https://groups.google.com/g/clojurescript/c/bSBfH1hazSg https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/erdo6t/desktop_apps_in_clojurescript_and_qt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/erdo6t/desktop_app... https://bugreports.qt.io/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/QTBUG-63600 https://bugreports.qt.io/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/QTBUG-...

fsflover 5y ago

Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29131594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29131594. Pop _OS to use it own desktop environment, written in Rust (reddit.com) 158 points by tuananh 18 hours ago | 128 comments

paulgb 5y ago

As far as I can tell, this is the extent of what’s been discussed in public (mmstick is a System76 engineer) > mmstick: It will be its own desktop. > SevenSidedSube: Will the DE be forked from GNOME? > mmstick: No it is its own thing written in Rust. If nothing else, it’s encouraging to see a large GUI project in Rust as it will surely lift the (nascent) state of the art there in that area. In the best case, maybe this will get me back on Linux for the desktop.

Nux 5y ago
Good to see it's not following gnome. V3/4 are a disaster.
- unixbane 5y ago
  ... which GTK is a part of, regardless of what desktop (what does that even mean?) you use. on a mid range off the shelf laptop, practically any GTK based program is unusable because it's too slow, even in a minimal tiling WM. i guess gnome advocates would consider GTK as a high end application, but i digress.
  - Nux 5y ago
    GTK3 is indeed slow. GTK2 is fast and Gnome2 was fast (MATE is fast).
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    I’m not exactly a fan of GTK but this surprises me. I toy with Linux on an old circa-2008 QX9300/Quadro FX770M laptop from time to time and can’t recall GTK3 apps being particularly slow on it. GNOME itself is a bit sluggish but that’s no surprise.
cle 5y ago
What end-user problems are they solving though? I only see some quibbles about customization/theming, which seems like an insane reason to drop the entire stack and write one from scratch. From the information given, this just seems like riding the Rust hype wave.

schaefer 5y ago

This is news to me, but not surprising. After all, Jeremy Soller (A.K.A Jackpot51), is both a system 76 engineer and a long time contributor to Redox OS. Redox is a rust native OS[1]. [1] https://www.redox-os.org/screens/ https://www.redox-os.org/screens/

emptyparadise 5y ago

Interested to see a modern take on Linux desktop that's neither irritatingly minimalist or constantly breaking things with every update.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Haven’t has that issue with KDE, gnome is always breaking their compatibility with new GTK versions, while QT supports legacy so well that car manufacturers use it to make their interfaces.
- dym_sh 5y ago
  its not like cars getting more firmware updates than phones, and version-lock on LTS version of QT is more than just likely for the entire lifecycle of model row