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Pandora Papers: is the world’s biggest leak the world’s biggest cover-up?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago> the upshot will be to drive global wealth towards secrecy jurisdictions in the US such as Rupert Murdoch’s preferred haven of Delaware. Delaware as a secret tax haven? What?? How?
- eurasiantiger 5y agoTry googling it
- rand846633 5y agoMany reasons, but the main one being you can use Delaware to hide the ownership of your companies. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/092515/4-reasons-why-delaware-considered-tax-shelter.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/09251...
- iamacyborg 5y agoCorporate secrecy laws in Delaware are so strong that Americans don’t need to seek offshore tax havens, which themselves are often modelled on Delaware’s corporate laws.
- gigatexal 5y agoNothing is going to come off this. Nothing will change. That’s the world we live in: get rich then sell ways to grow it at all costs and hide it from the tax man
- cupofcoffee 5y agoThat's an overly optimistic vantage point. Many things will change. For the worse.
- peakaboo 5y agoI've also given up on humanity. Feels like I'm forced to live inside a zoo, and all the low iq apes are convinced they are changing the world by picking up banana peels.
- tmn007 5y agoMaybe there will be a leak from the leak
- benzible 5y agoPer the Washington Post [1] > "The uber-rich in the United States tend to pay such low tax rates that they have less incentive to seek offshore havens. But their absence from the files also may mean that very wealthy Americans turn to different offshore jurisdictions." [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/pandora-papers-offshore-finance/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/pan...
- taurath 5y agoIts pretty well known by now that billionaires pay an effective single digit tax rate in the US. https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trov... Hell, the person who used to be president was paying that or less. They have at least 60% of congress paid for in order to not raise taxes or close loopholes as well. Then you have so many otherwise smart people believing that taxation is theft, when they're just not rich enough to pay the good rates.
- thatswrong0 5y agoI genuinely wonder what would be the best way to deal with the unrealized gains + taking out loans as untaxable income loophole. It seems like the current Democratic party strategy would be taxing unrealized gains over a certain amount but that still doesn't quite feel right..
- nmfisher 5y agoI’ve said this a number of times before, but I still can’t see why loans > $1m against share-based collateral shouldn’t be taxed as income.
- 1123581321 5y agoIt’s because loans must be repaid. Perhaps there could be a fee on the collateral process itself.
- brezelgoring 5y agoWhy would the Pandora Papers leaker give it to the institution that had a precedent for censoring leaks in the past? If any leakers are reading this, please consider seeding a torrent from a burner phone and posting magnet links to 4chan/reddit, let them do the sifting and seeding. Much less work, and I guarantee that it'll be far more effective than whatever they've been doing so far.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> please consider seeding a torrent from a burner phone and posting magnet links to 4chan/reddit, let them do the sifting and seeding This is bad advice. It guarantees the leaker will be denied whistleblower privileges and presumptions. It also ensures the leaked material will be useless for legislators, regulators and law enforcers. Yes, doing zero editorial work and dumping on 4chan will spice up your corner of the web for a minute. But if you want to cause real change, you need to be more disciplined.
- thepasswordis 5y agoYeah? Did the panama papers lead to any real change?
- eru 5y agoWell, perhaps more regulations to work around with expensive lawyers and accountants later. Slight change of available loopholes after some legislative changes?
- unmole 5y agoIt led to the dismissal of the head of government of a nuclear power. It's not nothing.
- pindab0ter 5y agoSpecifically?
- twelvechairs 5y agoFor those curious on the source - Michael West is a former stockbroker turned financial journalist for major Australian newpapers, who started his own independent media company after being axed by them.
- Yhippa 5y agoDid any reform or retribution come from the Panama Papers?
- blago 5y agoA journalist was murdered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_Caruana_Galizia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_Caruana_Galizia
- anothernewdude 5y agoProgress
- bujak300 5y agoNot just one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_J%C3%A1n_Kuciak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_J%C3%A1n_Kuciak
- bytelines 5y agoAccording to a study [1] from the University of Oxford, "147 distinct outcomes recorded for the Panama Papers investigation over 35 months", summarized as: """ • The most reliable outcome of Panama Papers reporting around the world has been various forms of official deliberation and information-gathering, observed in 45 percent of countries tracked in this study. • Nearly a fifth of countries tracked have seen at least one instance of concrete reform, such as a new law or policy designed to address problems exposed in the reporting. This is a higher rate than has been found in comparable analyses, due in part to the global scope of the Panama Papers and the nature of the institutions implicated. • Various tax enforcement measures have been a regular outcome of the reporting, and numerous companies and individuals have been penalised or prosecuted as a result. Direct accountability for public officials remains rare, with officials losing office in fewer than 10 percent of countries tracked. • Backlash against journalists was recorded almost as often as substantive reforms, though in different parts of the world: predictably, reporters have come under threat in countries that score low in press freedom. """ [1] https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2019-05/Graves_Gauging_the_Global_Impacts_of_the_Panama_Papers_FINAL.pdf https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/fil...
- chii 5y agoThis video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INRs9rnciyI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INRs9rnciyI0 ) illuminates some of the biases that these leaks have this time around. I feel this sort of leak is more about attention grabbing media bites, than a thirst for real change. And i would guess that this leak potentially harms more people than it saves.
- ridaj 5y agoSubtext of the claim: US-funded hackers broke into offshore banking service providers to expose geopolitical enemies while protecting their own Proof: none
- kome 5y agoyeah, but i think it's a good hypothesis.
- ridaj 5y agoBased on?
- kome 5y ago"Yet spy services are increasingly using a WikiLeaks-like model of posting stolen materials online. In 2018, the Trump administration granted the CIA aggressive new secret authorities to undertake the same sort of hack-and-dump operations for which Russian intelligence has used WikiLeaks. Among other actions, the agency has used its new powers to covertly release information online about a Russian company that worked with Moscow’s spy apparatus." https://news.yahoo.com/kidnapping-assassination-and-a-london-shoot-out-inside-the-ci-as-secret-war-plans-against-wiki-leaks-090057786.html https://news.yahoo.com/kidnapping-assassination-and-a-london... So, now the CIA can use "hack-and-dump operations". So, now so when I see a big "hack-and-dump operations" with 0 results about the US, it is - at least - a bit suspicious.
- jessaustin 5y agoAs usual, the very worst accusations out of our "intelligence" bureaucracy are entirely projection.
- sonotathrowaway 5y agoI think he intended the whataboutism part around assange as guilt by implication - does that count? In any case, he buried the lede at the very end of the story, after briefly mentioning in the beginning that he worked with the director of the program: “ Who is calling the shots? One man apparently, Gerard Ryle. In the wake of the Panama Papers, when we asked Ryle on a number of occasions for an ICIJ log-in to analyse the data, we were denied. “My path, my call,” said Ryle. We already have our media partners, he said. “ This reads more like his feelings were hurt by not being included.
- anothernewdude 5y agoThe papers always only make it to large firms that then censor much of the content.
- ucha 5y agoI don't know what he's talking about when he says that only 1% of the ICIJ gets is made public. They published everything they had from previous leaks as far as I know. See here https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/ https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/ The current data leak is a bunch of unprocessed files and emails that would be irresponsible to leak as it could contain private information such as passport scans of no public utility. They said they are in the process of cleaning that data to later make it available.
- baybal2 5y ago> The current data leak is a bunch of unprocessed files and emails that would be irresponsible to leak as it could contain private information such as passport scans of no public utility. It will be very responsible to do so to people who have absolutely no reason to hide their wealth, especially in countries without public security problems. It is very morally correct too.
- stef25 5y agoEven if it's morally correct, that doesn't make it legal
- baybal2 5y agoDo morally correct things. The morality is inescapable.
- stef25 5y agoDoes that imply ICIJ is acting illegally?
- charlesdm 5y agoIf you steal the Coca Cola recipe and release it, don't you think you'd be acting illegally? These documents were stolen from law firms, trust managers and accounting firms. Aside from the fact that many of these structures are not illegal, and are often declared to local tax authorities of the resident, these are private matters. Plenty of money is laundered through onshore jurisdictions as well -- this has nothing to do with the entities itself.
- m0zg 5y agoYep, the cover-up has already been implemented. This dropped off the "news" pretty quick. As did all other similar leaks. Share it on 4chan next time. Autists [1] there will dig up stuff that even FBI can't find. Especially in this case when FBI won't find anything even if you slap it across the face with the evidence. [1] I'm sure most of them aren't really autistic, they just call themselves that. And some of them are _very_ talented.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y agoJust because they call themselves autistic doesn’t mean it’s ok for you to be ableist too, particularly when you could have got your point across without the knowyourememe reference.
- m0zg 5y agoI don't believe in your woke horseshit, so this doesn't work on me. I'm also not referring to any concrete person.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y agoYour point had nothing to do with autism, your post was thinly veiled edge-posting. Must hurt getting rejected by HN. @dang
- Hermel 5y agoThe truth is: all these leaks didn't unearth as much dirt on high-profile politicians as the journalists hoped for. Also, the "Swiss bank accounts" seem to have become a Hollywoood clichée that do not have much practical relevance any more. The biggest problem we have regarding taxes is an overly complicated tax code with too many legal loopholes. The Wall Street Journal has a sober review of the Pandora papers: https://www.wsj.com/articles/pandora-papers-flat-tax-reform-wealth-inequality-loophole-11633616530 https://www.wsj.com/articles/pandora-papers-flat-tax-reform-...
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoYep. The reality is that tax avoidance may be immoral, it is perfectly legal. I pass the skyscrapers filled with lawyers and accountants every day on my commute.
- iamacyborg 5y ago> The truth is: all these leaks didn't unearth as much dirt on high-profile politicians as the journalists hoped for. I don’t think that’s true. Significant corruption has been found in this and previous leaks at multiple levels of government around the globe. The problem is not enough has been done about it.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- stef25 5y agoHas anybody said anything about the source of these leaks? From what I understand they come from multiple (14?) off shore service providers. Were those all compromised by the same perpetrator? Quite a feat. How can we know the data wasn't filtered before reaching the ICIJ? What about the legality of this? Every decent person seems to love these types of leaks while admitting there's nothing inherently illegal going on. Does that mean it's nothing more than "celebrity secrets exposed"? With elected officials you could make the case that they should be held accountable but what about people who never held or no longer hold office? What argument justifies that all this dirty laundry should be exposed? Is it morally correct to hack my neighbor's email and expose the fact he didn't declare his taxes properly, or is there some kind of threshold that should be applied?
- denton-scratch 5y ago> what about people who never held or no longer hold office? You don't have to "hold office" to be a corrupt crook. Mafia bosses don't normally "hold office".
- vkammerer 5y ago> "the effect of the Pandora Papers is to, deservedly, trash a suite of non-US tax havens" > "Who benefits? The US and the Big Four" I'm a bit confused as I read this article as my understanding was that the Pandora Papers, for once, shed light on how the US is becoming the place of choice for the super rich seeking to escape taxation: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/04/pandora-papers-reveal-south-dakotas-role-as-367bn-tax-haven https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/04/pandora-papers-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/booming-us-tax-haven-industry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/boo... Not sure exactly how these revelations "benefit the US"?
- barcoder 5y agoAccording to the article the ICIJ is just releasing parts of the leaked papers that do not mention the big four or people that avoid tax within US boundaries. Therefore, the big four have some kind of immunity and are the only safe place for the mega wealthy to avoid tax.
- shapefrog 5y agoFree advertising.
- iamacyborg 5y agoIt’s not even a case of “for once”. It’s made abundantly clear if you’ve read or watched The Laundromat which was written by a core contributor to the ICIJ that significant tax evasion is happening in America.
- nathannecro 5y agoI wonder if it's possible to automate the offshoring of financial assets with the same structure that the Pandora+Panama papers lay out. Folks who aren't quite "wealthy" but still have wealth they'd like to shelter from regulating authorities would then be able to take advantage of the same loopholes. Perhaps then there would be incentive to close the loopholes. On a more meta note I find that many HN posts (including this one) follows Betteridge's Law of Headlines (1) and is obviously clickbait. Why would this be upvoted? What relevance does this have to do with "[something] that good hackers would find interesting" (per HN guidelines)? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines#:~:text=Betteridge's%20law%20of%20headlines%20is,the%20principle%20is%20much%20older https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline....
- fakedang 5y agoThe costs of licensing and managing the business are often beyond the reach of the average citizen, but just a paltry sum for the rich.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- a0-prw 5y agoSmoke and mirrors
- suction 5y agoThe question which always comes to mind when some "papers" are released allegedly revealing how bad our politicians and other leaders are...why are we all so much better off than our ancestors just a hundred years ago? Less war, less famines, more quality of life, more personal freedom, improving standards in the "3rd world", scientific breakthroughs, etc.?
- diordiderot 5y agoLabor organization, environmental regulations, freely distributed vaccines, public education, trust busting, utility regulation, public infrastructure, public scientific investment, increased democratic participation. But I assume you were thinking capitalism?
- Jerry2 5y agoThe world's biggest "offshore" tax heaven is not any of the Caribbean islands. It's not Switzerland. It's not Hong Kong. It's South Dakota. [1] Former hedge fund manager and financial book author Patrick Boyle explains what these Pandora Papers mean in a video [2]. There are rumors and speculations that both the Panama and Pandora Papers leaks were released by the CIA. The leak is so massive and so many entities were hacked that only a nation state could have pulled it off. And given who was and who wasn't implicated in this and given which news orgs received these papers, it's pretty obvious that CIA or NSA or some other part of the US IC community was behind these leaks. And none of the media companies are asking the question of who is behind these leaks for a very good reason. Just imagine if Wikileaks had released something like this... all these news orgs would immediately blame it on "russians" and claim it's all fake. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/05/heres-how-states-like-south-dakota-have-become-global-tax-havens.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/05/heres-how-states-like-south-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INRs9rnciyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INRs9rnciyI
- ghayes 5y ago> And given who was and who wasn't implicated in this and given which news orgs received these papers, it's pretty obvious that CIA or NSA or some other part of the US IC community was behind these leaks. That’s a pretty bold conclusion from the premises provided.
- lelandfe 5y ago> so many entities were hacked Weren’t the Panama Papers almost exclusively data from Mossack Fonseca?
- mhoad 5y agoIt’s very clear that you don’t work with in infosec if you have it in your mind that hacking 14 offshore financial services company is indicative of nation state level activity. The evidence isn’t that great for the claim you’re making. The other one I hear often when people make this claim which is how good a job the hackers did packaging it and getting it to all the right places in relative secrecy. I mean.. I kind of see where your coming from if you compare it to the Epik hack recently but I don’t think quietly emailing journalists is some unobtainable skill either for even a single person let alone small crew. Edit: just by way of reference I wanted to point you to a great example of some of the many motivated people and groups out there who I think are way more likely: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcowmandante-marcos-hack-back https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcowmandante-marco...
- nikkinana 5y agoThe rich and powerful run the world. Everyone reacts to what they do and feeds off their scraps.
- garbagecoder 5y agoMeds, now.
- rapjr9 5y agoI am surprised that no one here has stated the obvious, that the release of information on big participants in the USA _could_ be released next. The summary page at the Guardian says "What has been revealed so far?" That implies that more may be revealed. If I was going to out the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world I'd take the time to get my facts straight and investigate all the legal angles. Also since this is a distributed project some reporters may be taking longer to dig into their sub-projects.