16 ms·

Singapore population sees biggest percentage drop since 1950

139 points by Yeri 5y ago

refurb 5y ago
Much better article with a breakdown. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-population-shrink-citizen-pr-foreign-employment-ageing-2207136 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati... Most interesting is not the foreign workers, which you would expect, but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%).
- worrycue 5y ago
  > but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%). Seem like an artifact of the measurement system. From your link, > “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Citizens and PRs of Singapore were always able to return to Singapore, even now. The ones staying outside the country are doing so voluntarily. So I’m ok with how they counted it - if the US citizen population decreased due to people leaving and staying outside the country that seems like a fair measure.
    - worrycue 5y ago
      People who go back and forth often, thus will usually be counted in the census, might not be able to or not want to do so. They might not want to risk getting lock out of the other country and there might be quarantine requirements they do not want to be subjected to.
- rvba 5y ago
  Aren't permanent residents foreign workers as well? Permanent resident =/= citizen?
  - refurb 5y ago
    Just the classification in Singapore. PRs are kind of an "in between".
  - guywhocodes 5y ago
    "Foreign worker" means being on a work-visa, in Singapore this means you have very few rights and your stay is motivated only by your job. You get 30d to land a new job and pass the visa process, which takes minimum two weeks. Or get out. Long term visit passes are provided for spouses and children of citizens/PRs, they can apply to be allowed to work. Dependent passes are the same but for foreign workers, they may not apply work in Singapore. Permanent Resident is the only way for a foreigner to stay long term and work in Singapore out of their own merit. And the requirement are probably more like what you expect for citizenship. Currently it's essentially impossible to become citizen if you were not born to Singaporean citizens. However in the past citizenship has been offered to PR-holders.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    Singapore has a strict caste hierarchy, which looks like this: * Citizen. * Permanent resident (PR). Previously given out in boxes of cereal, particularly if of Chinese descent, now very difficult to attain. Military service required for male children. * Employment pass. Professional expats with high qualifying salaries (depends on age, educational qualifications etc, but generally $5000/mo minimum). Pass tied to job, 30 days to get out of the country/find new sponsor if job ends. No subsidies for education, health etc, but can bring in families, marry locals, eventually apply for PR. * S-pass. Semi-professional roles (eg. construction foreman), strict limits on how many can be employed. * Work pass. Disposable laborers in construction, factories, landscaping, etc. No path to become residents, cannot marry Singaporeans (edit: without explicit government approval), generally brutally exploited and for the past two years 100% confined to their dormitories and worksites. * Foreign domestic workers aka maids/helpers. Disposable laborers living and working in Singaporean households. Not covered by employment legislation, so can be legally forced to work 365/24/7 with no holidays whatsoever. Not uncommonly physically confined (locked in) to the employer's apartment, denied means of communicating with the outside world, and have both their passports and salaries confiscated for "safekeeping".
dstala 5y ago
Similar to other developed nations, Singapore has been experiencing a dwindling birth rate and ageing population. >> And area where other developing countries like India are in position of advantage, but need to channel right.
- oblio 5y ago
  What do you mean?
- cyberpsybin 5y ago
  India is right now young and poor. If 3 decades it will be old and poor. Cannot escape population explosion consequences.
  - newyankee 5y ago
    It may not be rich like first world, but reaching Mexico level per capita income and a safety net for basic needs + education and basic healthcare is possible within 3 decades. Corruption is reducing, infrastructure is being built like China of 2000s (almost) and a connected world is a very different place from what was possible 20 years back.
    - cute_boi 5y ago
      "Corruption is reducing" is outright lie. Its increasing and the way Indians are seeking west life it is expected increase more. https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank These days people want luxurious life. Those days are simply gone where people would be satisfy wit basic needs + education. And with the advent of social media like facebook/instagram where people tends to show off a lot this will make the situation more worst.
      - xNeil 5y ago
        India's corruption rank was 94 before Modi came, and is currently 85, which is the highest it has been since Modi came. It has reduced quite a bit I'd say.
quacked 5y ago
There exist few talking points as odious as the myopic GDP-focused complaining about "population decreases" in developing nations and how they must be overcome by the unrestrained importing of labor. Liberal societal goals (many of which I happen to support) include preservation of the natural environment, robust sovereignty of oppressed indigenous populations, increased availability of housing and resources, and in general an profound sense of the importance of any individual within their community. Every single one of these goals becomes easier to achieve the fewer people there are within a single geographic area, so why are these complaints about declining populations always coming from left-leaning thinkers and speakers? (I know Reuters isn't exactly left wing, but the language they're using is identical to 'progressive' politicians all over the west.) The time immediately following the Black Death in Europe was a massive boon for the (surviving) commoner. When people talk about declining populations in Western countries, I imagine razing the unsustainable, disgusting post-war boomtowns, layering farmland and forest over their remains, and pushing a philosophy of local self-reliance born out of community solidarity. It is truly unnerving to see so many publications talk about this issue and imply that the only hope for any nation with a declining population is to bring in as much supplementary labor as possible. I can only hope the people of Singapore are happy with whatever their economic leaders have decided is best for them.
- gremloni 5y ago
  Immigrant bad. Homogenous population good blah blah.
  - quacked 5y ago
    Ah, it's hard to be so ignorant sometimes--when I'm enlightened like you I'll finally be able to understand that relocating 15,000 backwater US conservatives to the Bangkok suburbs would actually be a net benefit for the Thai. Their weak, homogeneous culture needs to be changed for their own good.
    - gremloni 5y ago
      It’s a net benefit for the world.
megablast 5y ago
Finally some good news.
ximeng 5y ago
1.2% drop in Hong Kong https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/hong-kongs-experiences-alarming-population-drop-government https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/...
korginator 5y ago
This is not just about the loss of PRs or citizens. Singapore is one of the most expensive places in the world to live in. More people in SG are choosing to marry later, have kids later, or have fewer kids. Many people register a marriage just to qualify for subsidised HDB housing, get that out of the way and focus on their careers. Talking about children, schools and universities are highly subsidised for citizens, and somewhat discounted for PRs. For example [1] a citizen admitted to the National University of Singapore to study engineering pays $8,200 (about US$6,050) a year vs the $38,200 a year that an international student without any subsidies would pay. This differentiation is even more marked for primary and secondary schools and junior colleges [2] for example a citizen pays $0 in primary school fees while a foreigner pays up to $775++ a month. A permanent resident attending secondary school pays $400 a months vs about $20-25 for a citizen. This is a direct incentive for citizens to have more children, but also discourages PRs and foreigners from having children in SG, or to remain in SG for a long time if they don't plan to become citizens. Healthcare is also subsidised for citizens, you are covered by the CPF (pension scheme) MediShield plan, or a linked insurance policy, whereas PRs pay more and non-PRs have no CPF coverage. In my experience, what you're seeing here is a readjustment towards a new normal, nothing alarming, and probably what was planned all along. [1] NUS tuition fees: https://www.nus.edu.sg/registrar/administrative-policies-procedures/undergraduate/undergraduate-fees https://www.nus.edu.sg/registrar/administrative-policies-pro... [2] MOE school fees: https://www.moe.gov.sg/financial-matters/fees https://www.moe.gov.sg/financial-matters/fees
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  The cost of living in Singapore isn’t high. Especially compared to Australia. But to have a family in Singapore? One of the reasons I just left… Health insurance is given to all employees if a company has > 50 employees. (Otherwise it’s up to the company if they want to give health insurance)
  - jb1991 5y ago
    I have some friends who pay 3000 Singapore dollars for a rather small one bedroom apartment, I would definitely consider that a high cost of living.
archibaldJ 5y ago
A few Singaporean friends just sold their condos recently (with sizable returns). The real estate market is still going bullish in the past 5 years. Doesn't appear to be impacted by the population shrink at all.
- xuki 5y ago
  That's just the trend in every developed country since the start of the pandemic.
- lanbanger 5y ago
  Give it time. I wouldn't be long Singaporean property over the next three years even if my life depended on it.
cwwc 5y ago
Every castle is built over a dungeon This hit me hard when in Singapore. In particular because of the size: in such a small place, you can’t avoid seeing the migrant workers/maids etc whereas it’s hidden in say, Paris. The contrast is so vivid.
- cafard 5y ago
  In Helsinki turn up at Mass at the Catholic cathedral. You see workers from the Philippines and West Africa.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  In Paris you just have to visit the suburbs. Tourists don’t go out there because none of the attractions are out there, and if I didn’t get lost rollerblading I would have never have noticed.
  - wazoox 5y ago
    You can go to Saint-Denis visit the royal basilica. You'll see who live there.
- baud147258 5y ago
  In Paris you just have to take the metro or the train (they'd be most visible in train stations)
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    I remember some sketchier areas on the RER between CDG and the city center.
tim333 5y ago
It's been pretty hard to enter Singapore travel wise since the pandemic started. I imagine some of the residents left to be able to travel around.
- worrycue 5y ago
  They are stuck aboard thus not counted, > “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-population-shrink-citizen-pr-foreign-employment-ageing-2207136 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
- lanbanger 5y ago
  Approximately 150,000 ex-pat workers (maybe ~10% of the total ex-pat population) left in the 12 months from June 2020-June 2021. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/spores-total-population-falls-41-to-545-million-as-covid-19-hits-foreign https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/spores-total... The SG gov has been celebrating this, with some of them going so far as to say that 'foreigners' are 'ballast to be shed' during tougher times. https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?lang=en https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?l...
jtdev 5y ago
Oh great, it seems that population growth globally is slowing due to low birth rates and aging populations. The population/climate bomb cultists like Bill Gates should be pleased by this… it’ll give earth and its parasitic inhabitants easily another decade or two of (admittedly miserable) existence :) Kidding of course. I’ll be eating cheeseburgers and driving a V8 full sized pickup into oblivion (even if I have to become a cattle rancher to do so). No regrets, the world that the “Great Reset” is creating is not one worth living in.
shell0x 5y ago
I lived in both Singapore and Sydney, and Singapore is cheaper - food is cheaper in SG - apartments were cheaper in Singapore. Sydney has become expensive - taxes are lower in Singapore - public transport is cheaper in Singapore - alcohol is expensive in both places - My company in Singapore paid medical, but in Australia I had to pay my own medical insurance - In Singapore I got paid all cash but in Australia it's required to contribute to Super which is a horrible system compared to what America got - Expat salaries are higher than in Australia Singapore has also public housing(HDBs) for locals which are more affordable. Sydney has no affordable housing at all. I'd say I saved 30-40k more in SG every year.

139 points by Yeri 5y ago

Much better article with a breakdown. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-population-shrink-citizen-pr-foreign-employment-ageing-2207136 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati... Most interesting is not the foreign workers, which you would expect, but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%).

worrycue 5y ago
> but the loss of Permanent Residents (6.2%) and Citizens (0.7%). Seem like an artifact of the measurement system. From your link, > “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said.
- refurb 5y ago
  Citizens and PRs of Singapore were always able to return to Singapore, even now. The ones staying outside the country are doing so voluntarily. So I’m ok with how they counted it - if the US citizen population decreased due to people leaving and staying outside the country that seems like a fair measure.
  - worrycue 5y ago
    People who go back and forth often, thus will usually be counted in the census, might not be able to or not want to do so. They might not want to risk getting lock out of the other country and there might be quarantine requirements they do not want to be subjected to.
rvba 5y ago
Aren't permanent residents foreign workers as well? Permanent resident =/= citizen?
- refurb 5y ago
  Just the classification in Singapore. PRs are kind of an "in between".
- guywhocodes 5y ago
  "Foreign worker" means being on a work-visa, in Singapore this means you have very few rights and your stay is motivated only by your job. You get 30d to land a new job and pass the visa process, which takes minimum two weeks. Or get out. Long term visit passes are provided for spouses and children of citizens/PRs, they can apply to be allowed to work. Dependent passes are the same but for foreign workers, they may not apply work in Singapore. Permanent Resident is the only way for a foreigner to stay long term and work in Singapore out of their own merit. And the requirement are probably more like what you expect for citizenship. Currently it's essentially impossible to become citizen if you were not born to Singaporean citizens. However in the past citizenship has been offered to PR-holders.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  Singapore has a strict caste hierarchy, which looks like this: * Citizen. * Permanent resident (PR). Previously given out in boxes of cereal, particularly if of Chinese descent, now very difficult to attain. Military service required for male children. * Employment pass. Professional expats with high qualifying salaries (depends on age, educational qualifications etc, but generally $5000/mo minimum). Pass tied to job, 30 days to get out of the country/find new sponsor if job ends. No subsidies for education, health etc, but can bring in families, marry locals, eventually apply for PR. * S-pass. Semi-professional roles (eg. construction foreman), strict limits on how many can be employed. * Work pass. Disposable laborers in construction, factories, landscaping, etc. No path to become residents, cannot marry Singaporeans (edit: without explicit government approval), generally brutally exploited and for the past two years 100% confined to their dormitories and worksites. * Foreign domestic workers aka maids/helpers. Disposable laborers living and working in Singaporean households. Not covered by employment legislation, so can be legally forced to work 365/24/7 with no holidays whatsoever. Not uncommonly physically confined (locked in) to the employer's apartment, denied means of communicating with the outside world, and have both their passports and salaries confiscated for "safekeeping".

dstala 5y ago

Similar to other developed nations, Singapore has been experiencing a dwindling birth rate and ageing population. >> And area where other developing countries like India are in position of advantage, but need to channel right.

oblio 5y ago
What do you mean?
cyberpsybin 5y ago
India is right now young and poor. If 3 decades it will be old and poor. Cannot escape population explosion consequences.
- newyankee 5y ago
  It may not be rich like first world, but reaching Mexico level per capita income and a safety net for basic needs + education and basic healthcare is possible within 3 decades. Corruption is reducing, infrastructure is being built like China of 2000s (almost) and a connected world is a very different place from what was possible 20 years back.
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    "Corruption is reducing" is outright lie. Its increasing and the way Indians are seeking west life it is expected increase more. https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank https://tradingeconomics.com/india/corruption-rank These days people want luxurious life. Those days are simply gone where people would be satisfy wit basic needs + education. And with the advent of social media like facebook/instagram where people tends to show off a lot this will make the situation more worst.
    - xNeil 5y ago
      India's corruption rank was 94 before Modi came, and is currently 85, which is the highest it has been since Modi came. It has reduced quite a bit I'd say.

quacked 5y ago

There exist few talking points as odious as the myopic GDP-focused complaining about "population decreases" in developing nations and how they must be overcome by the unrestrained importing of labor. Liberal societal goals (many of which I happen to support) include preservation of the natural environment, robust sovereignty of oppressed indigenous populations, increased availability of housing and resources, and in general an profound sense of the importance of any individual within their community. Every single one of these goals becomes easier to achieve the fewer people there are within a single geographic area, so why are these complaints about declining populations always coming from left-leaning thinkers and speakers? (I know Reuters isn't exactly left wing, but the language they're using is identical to 'progressive' politicians all over the west.) The time immediately following the Black Death in Europe was a massive boon for the (surviving) commoner. When people talk about declining populations in Western countries, I imagine razing the unsustainable, disgusting post-war boomtowns, layering farmland and forest over their remains, and pushing a philosophy of local self-reliance born out of community solidarity. It is truly unnerving to see so many publications talk about this issue and imply that the only hope for any nation with a declining population is to bring in as much supplementary labor as possible. I can only hope the people of Singapore are happy with whatever their economic leaders have decided is best for them.

gremloni 5y ago
Immigrant bad. Homogenous population good blah blah.
- quacked 5y ago
  Ah, it's hard to be so ignorant sometimes--when I'm enlightened like you I'll finally be able to understand that relocating 15,000 backwater US conservatives to the Bangkok suburbs would actually be a net benefit for the Thai. Their weak, homogeneous culture needs to be changed for their own good.
  - gremloni 5y ago
    It’s a net benefit for the world.

megablast 5y ago

Finally some good news.

ximeng 5y ago

1.2% drop in Hong Kong https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/hong-kongs-experiences-alarming-population-drop-government https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3144845/...

korginator 5y ago

This is not just about the loss of PRs or citizens. Singapore is one of the most expensive places in the world to live in. More people in SG are choosing to marry later, have kids later, or have fewer kids. Many people register a marriage just to qualify for subsidised HDB housing, get that out of the way and focus on their careers. Talking about children, schools and universities are highly subsidised for citizens, and somewhat discounted for PRs. For example [1] a citizen admitted to the National University of Singapore to study engineering pays $8,200 (about US$6,050) a year vs the $38,200 a year that an international student without any subsidies would pay. This differentiation is even more marked for primary and secondary schools and junior colleges [2] for example a citizen pays $0 in primary school fees while a foreigner pays up to $775++ a month. A permanent resident attending secondary school pays $400 a months vs about $20-25 for a citizen. This is a direct incentive for citizens to have more children, but also discourages PRs and foreigners from having children in SG, or to remain in SG for a long time if they don't plan to become citizens. Healthcare is also subsidised for citizens, you are covered by the CPF (pension scheme) MediShield plan, or a linked insurance policy, whereas PRs pay more and non-PRs have no CPF coverage. In my experience, what you're seeing here is a readjustment towards a new normal, nothing alarming, and probably what was planned all along. [1] NUS tuition fees: https://www.nus.edu.sg/registrar/administrative-policies-procedures/undergraduate/undergraduate-fees https://www.nus.edu.sg/registrar/administrative-policies-pro... [2] MOE school fees: https://www.moe.gov.sg/financial-matters/fees https://www.moe.gov.sg/financial-matters/fees

philliphaydon 5y ago
The cost of living in Singapore isn’t high. Especially compared to Australia. But to have a family in Singapore? One of the reasons I just left… Health insurance is given to all employees if a company has > 50 employees. (Otherwise it’s up to the company if they want to give health insurance)
- jb1991 5y ago
  I have some friends who pay 3000 Singapore dollars for a rather small one bedroom apartment, I would definitely consider that a high cost of living.

archibaldJ 5y ago

A few Singaporean friends just sold their condos recently (with sizable returns). The real estate market is still going bullish in the past 5 years. Doesn't appear to be impacted by the population shrink at all.

xuki 5y ago
That's just the trend in every developed country since the start of the pandemic.
lanbanger 5y ago
Give it time. I wouldn't be long Singaporean property over the next three years even if my life depended on it.

cwwc 5y ago

Every castle is built over a dungeon This hit me hard when in Singapore. In particular because of the size: in such a small place, you can’t avoid seeing the migrant workers/maids etc whereas it’s hidden in say, Paris. The contrast is so vivid.

cafard 5y ago
In Helsinki turn up at Mass at the Catholic cathedral. You see workers from the Philippines and West Africa.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
In Paris you just have to visit the suburbs. Tourists don’t go out there because none of the attractions are out there, and if I didn’t get lost rollerblading I would have never have noticed.
- wazoox 5y ago
  You can go to Saint-Denis visit the royal basilica. You'll see who live there.
baud147258 5y ago
In Paris you just have to take the metro or the train (they'd be most visible in train stations)
- dehrmann 5y ago
  I remember some sketchier areas on the RER between CDG and the city center.

tim333 5y ago

It's been pretty hard to enter Singapore travel wise since the pandemic started. I imagine some of the residents left to be able to travel around.

worrycue 5y ago
They are stuck aboard thus not counted, > “Travel restrictions during the pandemic was the main factor affecting the size of the (citizen) and PR population in 2021, as more (citizens) and PRs were staying overseas continuously for 12 months or more, who therefore were not counted as part of the resident population,” the National Population and Talent Division said. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-population-shrink-citizen-pr-foreign-employment-ageing-2207136 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-populati...
lanbanger 5y ago
Approximately 150,000 ex-pat workers (maybe ~10% of the total ex-pat population) left in the 12 months from June 2020-June 2021. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/spores-total-population-falls-41-to-545-million-as-covid-19-hits-foreign https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/spores-total... The SG gov has been celebrating this, with some of them going so far as to say that 'foreigners' are 'ballast to be shed' during tougher times. https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?lang=en https://twitter.com/wongdouglas/status/1298802033462394881?l...

jtdev 5y ago

Oh great, it seems that population growth globally is slowing due to low birth rates and aging populations. The population/climate bomb cultists like Bill Gates should be pleased by this… it’ll give earth and its parasitic inhabitants easily another decade or two of (admittedly miserable) existence :) Kidding of course. I’ll be eating cheeseburgers and driving a V8 full sized pickup into oblivion (even if I have to become a cattle rancher to do so). No regrets, the world that the “Great Reset” is creating is not one worth living in.

shell0x 5y ago

I lived in both Singapore and Sydney, and Singapore is cheaper - food is cheaper in SG - apartments were cheaper in Singapore. Sydney has become expensive - taxes are lower in Singapore - public transport is cheaper in Singapore - alcohol is expensive in both places - My company in Singapore paid medical, but in Australia I had to pay my own medical insurance - In Singapore I got paid all cash but in Australia it's required to contribute to Super which is a horrible system compared to what America got - Expat salaries are higher than in Australia Singapore has also public housing(HDBs) for locals which are more affordable. Sydney has no affordable housing at all. I'd say I saved 30-40k more in SG every year.