23 ms·

Lenovo tablet forced update shows un-dismissable, un-mutable, ad notifications

570 points by helsinkiandrew 5y ago

908B64B197 5y ago
Does anyone actually buy Lenovos after what happened with SuperFish? [0] [0] https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/superfish-torments-lenovo-owners-with-more-than-adware/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/superfish-to...
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  People seem to feel okay with it given they use Linux and thus everything is nominally open source.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    The problem is that Superfish is BIOS malware. If Lenovo is willing to infect its BIOS for profit, I'm not sure that running Linux is safe on their hardware.
    - fulafel 5y ago
      Having proof from that incident that hw isn't necessarily safe, + the risk of a repeat offence affecting Linux, is probably a net positive for Linux security.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        This is not really hardware. On some laptops you can (almost) replace BIOS with FLOSS coreboot. The incident proves the importance of FLOSS and user control.
- morpheuskafka 5y ago
  ThinkPads are still the name of the game for enterprise laptop deployments. AFAIK, they don't contain any preloaded stuff beyond the OEM app (Lenovo Vantage). Some enterprises prefer the more stripped down Lenovo System Update instead, although I think users may need Vantage to change some hotkey, etc. settings. Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc.
  - shawnz 5y ago
    At my workplace we use all Dell, including the laptops, and I've been mostly happy with them.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      Did you get extra warranty? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw TL;DW: they did a secret shopper laptop buying experience, the sales rep pushed the extra warranty hard, and included it (at cost) despite the buyer declining it.
  - sneak 5y ago
    > ThinkPads are still the name of the game for enterprise laptop deployments. I suppose startups (where but everybody is on a Mac) are not enterprises, then? > Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc. There were some Lenovos that had vendor crapware in the EFI partition that would get auto-reinstalled by Windows when you’d do a fresh install.
    - jonathantf2 5y ago
      >I suppose startups (where but everybody is on a Mac) are not enterprises, then? Mac computers are not enterprise computers. They're first and foremost consumer machines.
  - smlacy 5y ago
    > Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc. This is what I've done with virtually every machine I've personally owned for oh... the last 20 years? Why is this not people's defacto way of setting up a new machine? It's obvious that preinstalls are full of bloatware and spyware. The only issue (primarily from the past) is that specialty hardware may not work without vendor-provided drivers. That's largely no longer true, especially for the big-name brands like Lenovo, Dell, Acer, ec.
- Loic 5y ago
  For the past 20 years, only ThinkPads. I directly replace the main drive and install Linux on it.
- igetspam 5y ago
  I've never found a laptop I liked more than a ThinkPad. I haven't used anything but Linux in over 20 years though.
  - linuxhansl 5y ago
    Same here. IMHO ThinkPads are still the best laptops (again, IMHO), and I've been running nothing but Linux since 1999.
- ct0 5y ago
  Yes, I have.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I wouldn't know, I exclusively run Linux on my Lenovo devices.
- duxup 5y ago
  Lots of love for ThinkPads out there on HN. Not to say they're wrong about their preference but I gave up on Lenovo a long time ago due to shenanigans.
  - amiga-workbench 5y ago
    Understandable, I'm still running an X201t, the newer models are deeply unappealing. I picked up a Precision M6700 for the office and I'm very pleased with the thing. I don't see any laptops much newer than that which I'd be happy with. The current trend of soldered RAM & wireless radios is an utter dealbreaker, I can only hope the industry grows out of it.
- linuxhansl 5y ago
  I still buy ThinkPads and run Linux on them.
- poetaster 5y ago
  1 old thinkpad linux over apple since 2003/4. Apple fan boy from 1986 to about then. I miss adb and the nubus, but that really is too much ti expect, now isn't it.
- only_as_i_fall 5y ago
  No. Used to only buy Lenovo and then super fish happened and I haven't bought one since. I'm sure it doesn't bother Lenovo one bit though as people who actually care about this stuff are a fraction of 1% of their market. Frustrating for sure...
nyx 5y ago
You can use adb to remove this kind of crap without having to root the device, can't you? pm uninstall -k --user 0 com.spam.bloatware
- mschuster91 5y ago
  For that you need to know the offending APK ID in the first place, and you need to enable ADB access, and install a piece of software on your computer. Seriously, this shit is inexcusable.
  - nyx 5y ago
    Right - there's no good way for a non-technical user to avoid being exploited like this. I personally think hackers have a moral responsibility to make fixes like this more accessible to the average person. Tech corporations have made it clear they have no qualms about attacking their users in increasingly creative ways, and it's up to us to reclaim control over the devices which, in an ethical sense, are rightfully ours.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    And you don't really remove it. You just deactivate it, and only for the main user. If you do it without --user 0 it will actually uninstall it, but this only works for non-system apps and most manufacturers mark all their crap/spyware as system of course. Sigh...
  - shakna 5y ago
    > For that you need to know the offending APK ID in the first place In this case, the offending APK ID is "com.tblenovo.lenovotips". And I am pissed off that I had to learn that to fix a device that I own.
sergiotapia 5y ago
Same with my samsung tablet forcing itself to update. "You can dismiss this 1 more time" - why? It's my device I paid for it. It's very tiresome. What device can I buy that's just mine to do as I please. On desktop I'm already on Linux Mint. Looking for alts for phone and tablet.
- ukd1 5y ago
  Librem phones, or PinePhone / PineTab. The speed and quality aren't comparable to an iPhone, but to be fair it's open AND a 1/5th the price.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  I somewhat understand Samsung a bit. The amount of never updated Android devices that could be updated is immense, and support calls for long-banished issues that could be solved by a simple update are pointless and a waste of resources. The problem is that users suffer from "update fatigue" because they have to be (rightfully) afraid of entire UI overhauls or even more bugs after updates since no one does QA any more but follows the "bananaware" principle instead - software ripens at the customer's home. And app stores don't exactly make things easy because there is always only one version that can be updated to - no app store, including F-Droid, has an easy way to have one app with multiple concurrently available versions.
  - edoceo 5y ago
    Should call it avocado-ware. Almost ready when you buy it, perfect the next day(update1) but then mushy-shit the next (update2). Also, store them in the fridge
    - CyanBird 5y ago
      > Also, store them in the fridge After you open them, yeah In Chile at least, when we buy not quite ready avocado's we wrap them on newspaper, it helps them mature and become softer faster, people have done this for at least since I have been alive and it works well
ithinkso 5y ago
I wonder if the ad bombardment we are suffering for some years now will eventually reach a critical point to trigger mass exodus or protests. TV got annoying with ads and viewership greatly decreased but that was caused by the emergence of the internet I think, what new technology options we have to escape the current ads to? The only other hope is that the massive amount of money in ads and data collection is actually a bubble that will collapse btw. Ben Krasnow is the guy behind Applied Science youtube channel[0], I highly recommend checking it out [0] https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience
- jamincan 5y ago
  His channel is an increasingly rare gem. It's very high quality and interesting content without all the extra cruft that is inescapable now, even with some of the better channels.
  - bkraz 5y ago
    Thank you. I make a conscious effort to avoid the craft that I hate so much myself. Luckily, I have a day job that allows me to treat the channel as a hobby -- I know others are not in this position. Other downside is that the day job takes time away from making fun videos :) let me know if anyone has a topic suggestion.
    - why_Mr_Anderson 5y ago
      Hi Ben, after yet another (3rd I think? could be 4th) round of binge-watching all your videos, I was wondering if you made any progress with "Wire EDM" that you mention in one of your videos. That process is (for me, at least) pretty much pure magic. And the resulting cuts are just unbelievable.
      - bkraz 5y ago
        I haven't worked on EDM in a while. Check out BaxEDM and his other customers for a DIY wire EDM design. The BaxEDM channel recently showed one of those ultra right tolerance sliding parts where the joint disappears.
blacktriangle 5y ago
Appropriate to see this and the new Framework announcement on the front page at the same time. Here's hoping Framework is positioned to take advantage of what seems like the whole industry lighting themselves on fire wrt respeting their users.
- bityard 5y ago
  The Framework laptop is a cool concept and I can see myself getting one eventually, but the link is about a Lenovo (Android?) tablet. Not even remotely the same market or even thing.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    Except it poisons the Lenovo brand. I keep a running "what's my next laptop going to be?" thread running in my head. Lenovo was on that list because it's the "default implementation" of Linux laptops. But now - not so sure. If they're happy to pull this kind of asshattery, what other idiocy are they happy to do? And Framework just made it onto that list this week, so the other post was timely too :)
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      I bought a second-hand HP 15s lately. Ryzen 5500U, supports NVMe SSD, and allows up to 32GB DDR4 RAM. I haven't used it extensively but the fans are impressively quiet (likely because the AMD hardware heats up less than Intel/NVIDIA tech) and I found myself liking the machine more than I expected to. If you need RAM up to 64GB there are the 855 G7 models.
amelius 5y ago
Can we please get a law that says that on my devices, I control ads. Fine if bigcorp wants to show me ads, but then they must pay for the device.
- mysterydip 5y ago
  I'm sure the response would be something like "oh we gave you a discount on it when you purchased it for $399 instead of $1399. It's all in the EULA you agreed to when you first got your device."
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    That's exactly the logic Amazon uses for their Fire tablets. You can get them cheaper if you agree to have ads baked into the lock screen at a firmware level.
    - ianferrel 5y ago
      Yes, but it's up front and obvious, not hidden in legalese or added in a future update. That seems fine to me.
      - Baeocystin 5y ago
        I agree. I have zero problems with my subsidized-by-ads Kindle, because I knew what I was getting when I bought it in the first place. And, to Amazon's credit, the ads are unobtrusive. You get an ad for another book on your lockscreen; not a big deal, and most importantly, you are never, ever interrupted once you've unlocked the device. If Amazon ever switched to an intrusive-ad model, I'd pitch the thing in the trash without a second thought.
        genewitch 5y ago
        I bought a third gen Kindle I think, ad supported, no keyboard, for $30. This year I was charging it while reading and got up and kicked the cord, causing the kindle to smash into my heel, breaking the display. I was able to get the latest Paperwhite, trading in the old, broken Kindle, for $58. If it lasts as long as my old one (8 years) I'll be fine with that. I don't use it often, I keep a lot of reference and old books (like Raymond Chandler), I stopped buying Kindle books after three consecutive books were missing the last chapter or so. The kindle windows conversion program (Kindle preview 3) will handle nearly everything that the "email yourself a book @kindle.com" won't, and for everything else there's calibre. I had a book and a couple of palm pilots and other portable LCD screened things over a decade ago, and the kindle is the best for the price I get them at.
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HelixEndeavor 5y ago
This is awful behavior, and I'm not trying to diminish that in any way, but... Who sticks with the OEM software? One of the first things I do with any x86-based system is wipe the drive and install a fresh copy of Windows or a distro of choice.
- syntheticnature 5y ago
  It's an Android tablet. Also, in terms of who... most non-technical people take it out of the box and start using the device with the software on there.
- jborichevskiy 5y ago
  The vast majority of people who buy a laptop expect the laptop they paid money for to work without having to "wipe the drive and install a fresh copy of" anything
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  On some laptops I'll stick with the stock windows install simply because that's what is often required to get full performance (GPU, battery life, etc). The most egregious I've seen so far is an ASUS Zephyrus G15 which gets ~20% worse GPU performance when using anything but the factory Nvidia drivers on the factory install. Installing drivers from Windows Update or straight from Nvidia incurs the speed hit, and while it's possible to download the right drivers from ASUS, getting them installed and in the right state is a pain in the rear.
- mdoms 5y ago
  Well firstly the vast, overwhelming majority of users do. Secondly this is an android tablet so your post is entirely off track.
dtx1 5y ago
And again it's the normies that suffer this abuse from these companies and it's not going to stop. Yes we can use custom roms, esoteric ADB hacks etc. to stop this abuse but your average consumer? They can't. Their devices they trust a significant part of their life with gets invaded by these sick marketing people thinking it's somehow conceivable for this to be OK. And there are developers out there that comply with that, that indeed help them. It takes decades for legislation to fix these issues, until then it is our duty to stop this where ever we can. Please stop helping these sick corpo fucks. Do not implement this shit, do not help them abuse their customers against their will. Remember all those ethical dilemmas presented in Star Trek? Remember the evil Admiral ordering Captain Picard to do something against his conscious? "There are times, sir, when... men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders."[0]. Remember these lessons when they ask you to abuse the privacy and freedom of their customers and DO NOT COMPLY! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVKLfmCDxgWe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVKLfmCDxgWe
- zentiggr 5y ago
  And then you run up against the old saying (paraphrased) "You cannot convince someone whose livelihood depends on not being convinced"... the only way to stop this sort of behavior is to change the legalities such that marketers can be sued out of existence for anything considered shady practices. Then push that line every time something new comes up. Unless these asshats are hit on the nose with newspapers when they shit in your house, they'll never learn to take it elsewhere.
  - dtx1 5y ago
    Do not expect these people to understand. Make it impossible for them to act instead. Your average marketing person pushing more and more intrusive ads has the technological prowess of a 3rd grader. They cannot do their malicious business without support from programmers that actually understand the technology they abuse.
gigel82 5y ago
Lenovo left a sour taste for me after they pushed a BIOS update through Windows Update on my daughter's Flex that bricked the device (in the middle of a school-week, while she was doing online school). There were dozens of reports of the same problem from other owners of that model, yet they refused to acknowledge the issue was theirs or offer any self-serve option (I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout, but I presume they saved a couple of cents by removing that feature from the Flex models). Luckily the laptop was still in warranty and I got it "fixed" after 6 weeks, but will never purchase another Lenovo product again.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout Source for this? I've seen it available on various enthusiast desktop motherboards, but I haven't seen it on laptops. I haven't even seen it on the pricier thinkpad line.
  - hspak 5y ago
    For my Thinkpad X1 Carbon (Gen 5), I download the ISOs from here: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/thinkpad-x-series-laptops/thinkpad-x1-carbon-type-20hr-20hq/downloads/ https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb... And I use my re-write of geteltorio to flash it on a USB drive: https://github.com/hspak/geteltorito-zig https://github.com/hspak/geteltorito-zig I've done this multiple times now without issues, but your milage by vary!
  - iarenaza 5y ago
    I've done it at least twice with my Thinkpad T495. Bootable USB with El Torito format, if I remember it correctly. Using Lenovo official ISO images and instructions, etc.
  - gigel82 5y ago
    I can't find any Lenovo official documentation, but if you google for something like "lenovo laptop fn+r bios usb" you'll find a bunch of tutorials for how the recovery works. It does not work on the Flex model line-up though (I presume because they didn't include the bootstrapper firmware or some h/w component).
elric 5y ago
Gentle reminder that Lenovo jumped the shark quite a while ago. The whole Superfish debacle, the spyware, the crapware, the endless stream of shitty decisions. Year after year, the hardware gets worse. Customer support gets worse. The sad thing is that they're still better than everything else out there. Which says a lot about the laptop industry in general.
- api 5y ago
  PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. This is part of why people feel almost stuck with Apple. Their hardware is a lot better than most of the competition, though it comes with a price premium, and while there are privacy concerns they are less than with these shitware-loaded machines. You can also install Linux on them if you really want no telemetry at all, even with M1 Macs.
  - gruez 5y ago
    > PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. That really only applies to the consumer line. The thinkpad line is still pretty solid.
    - mhb 5y ago
      > The thinkpad line is still pretty solid. Meh. The trackpoint and keypad on my X1 are far inferior to previous Thinkpads, like the X220, before they decided their overarching mission was to make things as thin as possible. The trackpoint is sometimes unusable and is a chore to use at all times whereas the older ones were fun.
      - NathanielK 5y ago
        FWIW, Intel has been forcing manufacturers hand when it comes to thickness. Since their high performance laptop processors have stagnated on the last decade, they've created programs to encourage thin laptops. Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. I won't give Lenovo a free pass, but it's part of why keytravel and cooling solutions are pretty awful in modern small laptops.
ArtTimeInvestor 5y ago
Any tablets out there that run Linux well?
- mdoms 5y ago
  Surface Pro.
  - mishafb 5y ago
    I know it works but it just feels wrong
    - jrockway 5y ago
      It feels wrong to buy a Linux laptop from the company that makes Github? The Microsoft of the 2020s is a very different company from the Microsoft of the 1990s.
      - throw_m239339 5y ago
        > It feels wrong to buy a Linux laptop from the company that makes Github? that bought Github, and don't worry, Github is going to morph into yet another Microsoft entity in the next 5 years and everybody will move somewhere else...
        aliswe 5y ago
        Microsoft is actively dismantling Azure DevOps and is moving all of their talent into Github.
      - Silhouette 5y ago
        The Microsoft of the 2020s is a very different company from the Microsoft of the 1990s. It is, but in a discussion about forced updates and overtly user-hostile changes, I'll take the Microsoft of the 1990s please.
      - fomine3 5y ago
JTbane 5y ago
Man, Lenovo used to produce some amazing machines, like the the Thinkpad 200 series, with great keyboards Now it seems like they are just pushing crap
- sumtechguy 5y ago
  My theory is that was a leftover from when they were IBM and had huge contracts (think along the lines of 40k laptops at a time). So if something went wrong and you pissed off the wrong guy at one of those companies they would hold you to the 'fixed by the end of the next day' part of the contract. So IBM took care to make sure that did not happen. When they got bought out I was pretty sure that quality would slide eventually to the bean counters.
- numpad0 5y ago
  Models up to it were even better, except in price and LCD contrast
- onli 5y ago
  Lenovo refused to repair a laptop of my wife that had a broken display (always stayed black), because the USB port was also broken. The plastic guide was pulled out by an USB device, actually another manufacturing defect. That laptop was ~6 month old. The otherwise pristine laptop was mistreated they claimed, a pure lie. That enterprise is evil and deserves no single cent. They sell cheap junk with adware/spyware and a fake warranty.
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jollybean 5y ago
Microsoft needs to fix this. Edit: apparently I stand corrected I assumed this was a Windows Tablet, of course, the OS vendors should really step in here, they do have power in the equation. Ultimately, I would use the argument to the exec. team at Lenovo that the incremental revenue from these things just isn't worth it in the overall experience. Often teams are tasked with coming up with new revenue models, it's often an internal, organizational issue as opposed to a coherent product vision.
- superjan 5y ago
  This about an android tablet.
- passivate 5y ago
  Well, in this case the OS vendor itself is an adware/spyware company.
linguae 5y ago
This is despicable, and it's indicative of a trend I've been noticing over the years. Personal computing used to be about user empowerment. Today it seems to me that many tech companies treat their users as nothing more than either "eyeballs" to show ads to or as cows to be milked through vendor lock-in and subscription services. Either way, I feel the user experience has degraded in recent years, and I feel we increasingly have less control over our computers. Thankfully alternatives exist. Linux and the BSDs keep evolving, Haiku and ReactOS continue to develop and may one day reach daily-driver status, there's still a thriving market for building your own x86-64 PCs (I'll be building a Ryzen 9 machine this weekend), and products like the Framework laptop, the PineBook, and the Librem laptop have me excited. Hopefully these alternatives will continue to evolve and take root so that way there's a formidable challenger to Big Tech.
- PostThisTooFast 5y ago
  People put up with it, and we all suffer. Google recently shat out a similarly offensive update to Android TV, so now the only UI on people's $4000 Sony TVs is 1/3 advertisements for stuff the user often doesn't even have access to. Disgraceful.
- ladyanita22 5y ago
  > Thankfully alternatives exist. Linux and the BSDs keep evolving, Haiku and ReactOS continue to develop and may one day reach daily-driver status, there's still a thriving market for building your own x86-64 PCs (I'll be building a Ryzen 9 machine this weekend), and products like the Framework laptop, the PineBook, and the Librem laptop have me excited. Hopefully these alternatives will continue to evolve and take root so that way there's a formidable challenger to Big Tech. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha
  - deleted 5y ago
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- rchaud 5y ago
  My first laptop was a Toshiba Satellite in 2003 and it was crawling with bloatware, e.g Norton/Mcafee Antivirus popups. If you want to go bloat-free, buy from the business product lines, not the consumer ones. Although with the always-online Windows 11, it might be time to dump Windows altogether.
xg15 5y ago
What is increasingly scaring me: This time, the vendor was "nice" enough to only force you into viewing a subscription offer. However, there is really nothing technical that would keep them from forcing you to take the subscription if you want to continue using your device. Vendors have enough control about locked-down devices that they could play ransomware and make arbitrary demands to their users without many problems. And "device" can be anything from phones to cars to smart homes or expensive specialized equipment. I'm not sure how the legal situation is currently, but since the Stallman strategy of keeping devices free has evidently failed, I think it's high time for a comprehensive set of "digital consumer rights" that limit what vendors can do on "their" devices.
- q-rews 5y ago
  Yeah, sure, technically any vendor can push updates to brick your device, but that doesn’t happen because of the law. This stuff often gets through because it’s small enough, gray enough, and done by smaller companies. Have Apple pull something like this and you’ll see on the NYT.
  - rpdillon 5y ago
    Not quite the same, but there was a story yesterday about Apple doing this with a "Try the new Safari" notification. I think this falls under your "gray enough" category, but it is interesting they violated their own design guidelines. Apple discussion: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228 HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28361730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28361730
  - xg15 5y ago
    > and you’ll see on the NYT. And then what? It might generate a bit of outrage, but at the end of the day, users have no leverage (without legal support). No one wants to lose their device or the data on it, so for individual users, there are not a lot of options apart from doing whatever the vendor wants
    - 5y ago
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seph-reed 5y ago
Is there a photo of what he's talking about anywhere?
- RIMR 5y ago
  I have been looking. I have a Lenovo tablet, it has the "Tips" app. That app cannot be disabled, and does have system control over the tablet, but I have never seen a notification come from it before.
rchaud 5y ago
Meanwhile, I'm on my Chuwi Hipad plus (a very capable iPad Pro ripoff) that runs stock Android with no issues. The vendor is too small-time to bother setting up post-sale monetization deals like this.
KoftaBob 5y ago
Between this, and a few other examples below, I can't help but notice a not-so-great trend among Chinese tech brands: 1. OnePlus: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/hds41u/oneplus_has_turned_oxygenos_into_an_advertising/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/hds41u/oneplus_has... 2. Xiaomi: https://www.androidauthority.com/remove-ads-xiaomi-miui-1019139/ https://www.androidauthority.com/remove-ads-xiaomi-miui-1019... 3. Huawei: https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/06/14/huawei-apparently-decides-it-needs-more-bad-press-puts-ads-on-phone-lock-screens/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/06/14/huawei-apparently-d...
- Darmody 5y ago
  Blokada blocked every ad on my Xiaomi. Even on some apps. I've also blocked manually a lot of domains with Blokada. It's amazing and it doesn't require rooting your device.
amelius 5y ago
Classic bait-and-switch.
ypcx 5y ago
As much as I'd love to have alternatives in this particular Simulation, there are none. You either use Apple and minimize your suffering, or you don't use Apple and go live in hell, provided by companies running their product design & development by teams of chimpanzees (obviously & unfortunately).
- MBCook 5y ago
  What about a MS Surface? Do they pull this stuff too? I was under the impression they were decent.
  - sedatk 5y ago
    They're decent. Windows comes with a few bloatware (like Candy Crush Saga etc), but they can be easily uninstalled.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    I bought one and returned it. It's a laptop without a keyboard, not a tablet. I spent the first day waiting for Windows Update and turning off telemetry and other annoyances. I spent the second day trying mamy apps that were significantly worse than Procreate. I returned it on the third day. If you want Windows on a tablet, with all its issues and annoyances, you'll get exactly that. If you want an iPad experience with access to productivity tools, you won't get it. I wanted an iPad for replacing a Moleskine and a laptop. The laptop replacement part was OK, but it was a very unpleasant drawing experience. Opening and editing files sucked all the fun out of it. Procreate on the iPad felt a lot closer to the real thing: flip through pages, select one, pick a tool, have fun. I can't overstate how annoyed and angry this tablet was making me compared to my friend's iPad.
chairmanwow1 5y ago
Well, Lenovo just lost my business forever.
dredmorbius 5y ago
With alternatives such as System76 and the modular Framework laptop emerging, as well as low-cost systems from Pine, Lenovo's claim as the default preferred choice of the Linux/*BSD and power-user set is very rapidly evaporating. I've bought Thinkpads personally and professionally for 20 years. Idiotic cunning stunts such as this and Superfish have removed it from any future consideration.
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  If they get similar build quality, then yes. I know I'll miss the track point, as it seems I'm the only one to use it a lot.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    I'm right with you on the trackpoint. That'll be sorely mised.
- eikenberry 5y ago
  Until System76 moves beyond the branded Clevo's they will not be able to compete with Thinkpads. They've talked about an internally developed laptop before, but still no sign of it. The Framework laptops have the most potential right now IMO. I'm watching them to see how things go and will probably pick up a second gen of their laptops if they keep looking good.
  - 22c 5y ago
    >branded Clevo's I think it's a bit unfair to simply say they are "branded Clevo's". There was an interview about "right to repair" that I can't find right now where one of the founders of System76 addressed this and it sounds like they put a bit more effort into their hardware (and specifically, the accompanying middleware/firmware) than slapping some stickers on a Clevo. Edit: I still can't find the interview, which was a good one, but I found this [1] earlier comment from someone who works there. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refreshes_ubuntu_linux_laptops_with/ddvcx45/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
acdha 5y ago
I guess I should feel lucky that Lenovo orphaned that tablet which came out shortly before Marshmallow and never got an OS update? Can’t ship ads if you never ship code. (More seriously, this is why I looked at but passed by all of their other devices. Maybe their PCs get better treatment but I have no guarantee that the same management won’t make the same call again.)
andyjohnson0 5y ago
I recently bought a Galaxy Tab S7+ and was surprised by the amount of bloatware that had been rammed into it. There was nothing as egregious as forced ads though. After an hour with adb I'd managed to uninstall almost all of the crap (particularly Bixby), but it really shouldn't be necessary to resort to such measures. Anyway: adb -d shell pm uninstall --user 0 <packagename>
- breakingcups 5y ago
  Note that this doesn't actually actually remove the package from your device, it just disables and hides it from your user profile.
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
Good. Lenovo owners deserve it
FridayoLeary 5y ago
The users were given the choice between accepting the endless lists of t&c's or using the tablet as an expensive paperweight. Lenovo is clearly in the right here. It's their software being used and if users are not happy they can just walk away. And how do you know that people don't find ads helpful?
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I'm not sure if this is a joke or just another person from the ad industry desperately trying to justify their moral free behaviour.
qwerty456127 5y ago
> from an app that cannot be uninstalled or disabled. IMHO lack of a reasonably easy way to root the device, install something like LineageOS or some custom mod and get rid of the apps you don't want already is a sufficient reason to avoid buying such a device.
DiabloD3 5y ago
And this is why you don't buy from bad vendors. Lenovo has been on everyone's shitlist for pulling this stuff at least once a year on some product or another. _Do not buy Lenovo, or this will happen to you_. I'm hoping the US actually passes European-style warranty and consumer protection laws to force companies to end the practice of adding malware and/or bricking devices and blaming the consumer for it. Until then, hit these companies where it hurts the most: their wallet.
rambojazz 5y ago
I'm disappointed that there is no screenshot of it.
tobr 5y ago
As a long-time Apple user, five years ago I would have laughed at this and said that that’s ridiculous. Unfortunately, Apple has started to do almost exactly the same thing. For example, in my iPhone settings, one of the first items at the moment is a promotion for an offer to get 1 year Apple TV+ for free. I can only dismiss it by tapping on it. It’s not the first such “offer” for an Apple service that I’ve had to dismiss, and there’s no way to say that I don’t want ads in my settings app. What does it have to do with settings anyway? In the past I’ve gotten promotions for Apple services as notifications as well.

Does anyone actually buy Lenovos after what happened with SuperFish? [0] [0] https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/superfish-torments-lenovo-owners-with-more-than-adware/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/superfish-to...

bingohbangoh 5y ago
People seem to feel okay with it given they use Linux and thus everything is nominally open source.
- fsflover 5y ago
  The problem is that Superfish is BIOS malware. If Lenovo is willing to infect its BIOS for profit, I'm not sure that running Linux is safe on their hardware.
  - fulafel 5y ago
    Having proof from that incident that hw isn't necessarily safe, + the risk of a repeat offence affecting Linux, is probably a net positive for Linux security.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      This is not really hardware. On some laptops you can (almost) replace BIOS with FLOSS coreboot. The incident proves the importance of FLOSS and user control.
morpheuskafka 5y ago
ThinkPads are still the name of the game for enterprise laptop deployments. AFAIK, they don't contain any preloaded stuff beyond the OEM app (Lenovo Vantage). Some enterprises prefer the more stripped down Lenovo System Update instead, although I think users may need Vantage to change some hotkey, etc. settings. Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc.
- shawnz 5y ago
  At my workplace we use all Dell, including the laptops, and I've been mostly happy with them.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Did you get extra warranty? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw TL;DW: they did a secret shopper laptop buying experience, the sales rep pushed the extra warranty hard, and included it (at cost) despite the buyer declining it.
- sneak 5y ago
  > ThinkPads are still the name of the game for enterprise laptop deployments. I suppose startups (where but everybody is on a Mac) are not enterprises, then? > Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc. There were some Lenovos that had vendor crapware in the EFI partition that would get auto-reinstalled by Windows when you’d do a fresh install.
  - jonathantf2 5y ago
    >I suppose startups (where but everybody is on a Mac) are not enterprises, then? Mac computers are not enterprise computers. They're first and foremost consumer machines.
- smlacy 5y ago
  > Still, for a business with stricter security standards, it would be ideal to do a clean reimage of all new laptops regardless of vendor, and specifically add only the necessary drivers, etc. This is what I've done with virtually every machine I've personally owned for oh... the last 20 years? Why is this not people's defacto way of setting up a new machine? It's obvious that preinstalls are full of bloatware and spyware. The only issue (primarily from the past) is that specialty hardware may not work without vendor-provided drivers. That's largely no longer true, especially for the big-name brands like Lenovo, Dell, Acer, ec.
Loic 5y ago
For the past 20 years, only ThinkPads. I directly replace the main drive and install Linux on it.
igetspam 5y ago
I've never found a laptop I liked more than a ThinkPad. I haven't used anything but Linux in over 20 years though.
- linuxhansl 5y ago
  Same here. IMHO ThinkPads are still the best laptops (again, IMHO), and I've been running nothing but Linux since 1999.
ct0 5y ago
Yes, I have.
smoldesu 5y ago
I wouldn't know, I exclusively run Linux on my Lenovo devices.
duxup 5y ago
Lots of love for ThinkPads out there on HN. Not to say they're wrong about their preference but I gave up on Lenovo a long time ago due to shenanigans.
- amiga-workbench 5y ago
  Understandable, I'm still running an X201t, the newer models are deeply unappealing. I picked up a Precision M6700 for the office and I'm very pleased with the thing. I don't see any laptops much newer than that which I'd be happy with. The current trend of soldered RAM & wireless radios is an utter dealbreaker, I can only hope the industry grows out of it.
linuxhansl 5y ago
I still buy ThinkPads and run Linux on them.
poetaster 5y ago
1 old thinkpad linux over apple since 2003/4. Apple fan boy from 1986 to about then. I miss adb and the nubus, but that really is too much ti expect, now isn't it.
only_as_i_fall 5y ago
No. Used to only buy Lenovo and then super fish happened and I haven't bought one since. I'm sure it doesn't bother Lenovo one bit though as people who actually care about this stuff are a fraction of 1% of their market. Frustrating for sure...

nyx 5y ago

You can use adb to remove this kind of crap without having to root the device, can't you? pm uninstall -k --user 0 com.spam.bloatware

mschuster91 5y ago
For that you need to know the offending APK ID in the first place, and you need to enable ADB access, and install a piece of software on your computer. Seriously, this shit is inexcusable.
- nyx 5y ago
  Right - there's no good way for a non-technical user to avoid being exploited like this. I personally think hackers have a moral responsibility to make fixes like this more accessible to the average person. Tech corporations have made it clear they have no qualms about attacking their users in increasingly creative ways, and it's up to us to reclaim control over the devices which, in an ethical sense, are rightfully ours.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  And you don't really remove it. You just deactivate it, and only for the main user. If you do it without --user 0 it will actually uninstall it, but this only works for non-system apps and most manufacturers mark all their crap/spyware as system of course. Sigh...
- shakna 5y ago
  > For that you need to know the offending APK ID in the first place In this case, the offending APK ID is "com.tblenovo.lenovotips". And I am pissed off that I had to learn that to fix a device that I own.

sergiotapia 5y ago

Same with my samsung tablet forcing itself to update. "You can dismiss this 1 more time" - why? It's my device I paid for it. It's very tiresome. What device can I buy that's just mine to do as I please. On desktop I'm already on Linux Mint. Looking for alts for phone and tablet.

ukd1 5y ago
Librem phones, or PinePhone / PineTab. The speed and quality aren't comparable to an iPhone, but to be fair it's open AND a 1/5th the price.
mschuster91 5y ago
I somewhat understand Samsung a bit. The amount of never updated Android devices that could be updated is immense, and support calls for long-banished issues that could be solved by a simple update are pointless and a waste of resources. The problem is that users suffer from "update fatigue" because they have to be (rightfully) afraid of entire UI overhauls or even more bugs after updates since no one does QA any more but follows the "bananaware" principle instead - software ripens at the customer's home. And app stores don't exactly make things easy because there is always only one version that can be updated to - no app store, including F-Droid, has an easy way to have one app with multiple concurrently available versions.
- edoceo 5y ago
  Should call it avocado-ware. Almost ready when you buy it, perfect the next day(update1) but then mushy-shit the next (update2). Also, store them in the fridge
  - CyanBird 5y ago
    > Also, store them in the fridge After you open them, yeah In Chile at least, when we buy not quite ready avocado's we wrap them on newspaper, it helps them mature and become softer faster, people have done this for at least since I have been alive and it works well

ithinkso 5y ago

I wonder if the ad bombardment we are suffering for some years now will eventually reach a critical point to trigger mass exodus or protests. TV got annoying with ads and viewership greatly decreased but that was caused by the emergence of the internet I think, what new technology options we have to escape the current ads to? The only other hope is that the massive amount of money in ads and data collection is actually a bubble that will collapse btw. Ben Krasnow is the guy behind Applied Science youtube channel[0], I highly recommend checking it out [0] https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience

jamincan 5y ago
His channel is an increasingly rare gem. It's very high quality and interesting content without all the extra cruft that is inescapable now, even with some of the better channels.
- bkraz 5y ago
  Thank you. I make a conscious effort to avoid the craft that I hate so much myself. Luckily, I have a day job that allows me to treat the channel as a hobby -- I know others are not in this position. Other downside is that the day job takes time away from making fun videos :) let me know if anyone has a topic suggestion.
  - why_Mr_Anderson 5y ago
    Hi Ben, after yet another (3rd I think? could be 4th) round of binge-watching all your videos, I was wondering if you made any progress with "Wire EDM" that you mention in one of your videos. That process is (for me, at least) pretty much pure magic. And the resulting cuts are just unbelievable.
    - bkraz 5y ago
      I haven't worked on EDM in a while. Check out BaxEDM and his other customers for a DIY wire EDM design. The BaxEDM channel recently showed one of those ultra right tolerance sliding parts where the joint disappears.

blacktriangle 5y ago

Appropriate to see this and the new Framework announcement on the front page at the same time. Here's hoping Framework is positioned to take advantage of what seems like the whole industry lighting themselves on fire wrt respeting their users.

bityard 5y ago
The Framework laptop is a cool concept and I can see myself getting one eventually, but the link is about a Lenovo (Android?) tablet. Not even remotely the same market or even thing.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Except it poisons the Lenovo brand. I keep a running "what's my next laptop going to be?" thread running in my head. Lenovo was on that list because it's the "default implementation" of Linux laptops. But now - not so sure. If they're happy to pull this kind of asshattery, what other idiocy are they happy to do? And Framework just made it onto that list this week, so the other post was timely too :)
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    I bought a second-hand HP 15s lately. Ryzen 5500U, supports NVMe SSD, and allows up to 32GB DDR4 RAM. I haven't used it extensively but the fans are impressively quiet (likely because the AMD hardware heats up less than Intel/NVIDIA tech) and I found myself liking the machine more than I expected to. If you need RAM up to 64GB there are the 855 G7 models.

amelius 5y ago

Can we please get a law that says that on my devices, I control ads. Fine if bigcorp wants to show me ads, but then they must pay for the device.

mysterydip 5y ago
I'm sure the response would be something like "oh we gave you a discount on it when you purchased it for $399 instead of $1399. It's all in the EULA you agreed to when you first got your device."
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  That's exactly the logic Amazon uses for their Fire tablets. You can get them cheaper if you agree to have ads baked into the lock screen at a firmware level.
  - ianferrel 5y ago
    Yes, but it's up front and obvious, not hidden in legalese or added in a future update. That seems fine to me.
    - Baeocystin 5y ago
      I agree. I have zero problems with my subsidized-by-ads Kindle, because I knew what I was getting when I bought it in the first place. And, to Amazon's credit, the ads are unobtrusive. You get an ad for another book on your lockscreen; not a big deal, and most importantly, you are never, ever interrupted once you've unlocked the device. If Amazon ever switched to an intrusive-ad model, I'd pitch the thing in the trash without a second thought.
      - genewitch 5y ago
        I bought a third gen Kindle I think, ad supported, no keyboard, for $30. This year I was charging it while reading and got up and kicked the cord, causing the kindle to smash into my heel, breaking the display. I was able to get the latest Paperwhite, trading in the old, broken Kindle, for $58. If it lasts as long as my old one (8 years) I'll be fine with that. I don't use it often, I keep a lot of reference and old books (like Raymond Chandler), I stopped buying Kindle books after three consecutive books were missing the last chapter or so. The kindle windows conversion program (Kindle preview 3) will handle nearly everything that the "email yourself a book @kindle.com" won't, and for everything else there's calibre. I had a book and a couple of palm pilots and other portable LCD screened things over a decade ago, and the kindle is the best for the price I get them at.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

HelixEndeavor 5y ago

This is awful behavior, and I'm not trying to diminish that in any way, but... Who sticks with the OEM software? One of the first things I do with any x86-based system is wipe the drive and install a fresh copy of Windows or a distro of choice.

syntheticnature 5y ago
It's an Android tablet. Also, in terms of who... most non-technical people take it out of the box and start using the device with the software on there.
jborichevskiy 5y ago
The vast majority of people who buy a laptop expect the laptop they paid money for to work without having to "wipe the drive and install a fresh copy of" anything
kitsunesoba 5y ago
On some laptops I'll stick with the stock windows install simply because that's what is often required to get full performance (GPU, battery life, etc). The most egregious I've seen so far is an ASUS Zephyrus G15 which gets ~20% worse GPU performance when using anything but the factory Nvidia drivers on the factory install. Installing drivers from Windows Update or straight from Nvidia incurs the speed hit, and while it's possible to download the right drivers from ASUS, getting them installed and in the right state is a pain in the rear.
mdoms 5y ago
Well firstly the vast, overwhelming majority of users do. Secondly this is an android tablet so your post is entirely off track.

dtx1 5y ago

And again it's the normies that suffer this abuse from these companies and it's not going to stop. Yes we can use custom roms, esoteric ADB hacks etc. to stop this abuse but your average consumer? They can't. Their devices they trust a significant part of their life with gets invaded by these sick marketing people thinking it's somehow conceivable for this to be OK. And there are developers out there that comply with that, that indeed help them. It takes decades for legislation to fix these issues, until then it is our duty to stop this where ever we can. Please stop helping these sick corpo fucks. Do not implement this shit, do not help them abuse their customers against their will. Remember all those ethical dilemmas presented in Star Trek? Remember the evil Admiral ordering Captain Picard to do something against his conscious? "There are times, sir, when... men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders."[0]. Remember these lessons when they ask you to abuse the privacy and freedom of their customers and DO NOT COMPLY! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVKLfmCDxgWe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVKLfmCDxgWe

zentiggr 5y ago
And then you run up against the old saying (paraphrased) "You cannot convince someone whose livelihood depends on not being convinced"... the only way to stop this sort of behavior is to change the legalities such that marketers can be sued out of existence for anything considered shady practices. Then push that line every time something new comes up. Unless these asshats are hit on the nose with newspapers when they shit in your house, they'll never learn to take it elsewhere.
- dtx1 5y ago
  Do not expect these people to understand. Make it impossible for them to act instead. Your average marketing person pushing more and more intrusive ads has the technological prowess of a 3rd grader. They cannot do their malicious business without support from programmers that actually understand the technology they abuse.

gigel82 5y ago

Lenovo left a sour taste for me after they pushed a BIOS update through Windows Update on my daughter's Flex that bricked the device (in the middle of a school-week, while she was doing online school). There were dozens of reports of the same problem from other owners of that model, yet they refused to acknowledge the issue was theirs or offer any self-serve option (I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout, but I presume they saved a couple of cents by removing that feature from the Flex models). Luckily the laptop was still in warranty and I got it "fixed" after 6 weeks, but will never purchase another Lenovo product again.

gruez 5y ago
>I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout Source for this? I've seen it available on various enthusiast desktop motherboards, but I haven't seen it on laptops. I haven't even seen it on the pricier thinkpad line.
- hspak 5y ago
  For my Thinkpad X1 Carbon (Gen 5), I download the ISOs from here: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/thinkpad-x-series-laptops/thinkpad-x1-carbon-type-20hr-20hq/downloads/ https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb... And I use my re-write of geteltorio to flash it on a USB drive: https://github.com/hspak/geteltorito-zig https://github.com/hspak/geteltorito-zig I've done this multiple times now without issues, but your milage by vary!
- iarenaza 5y ago
  I've done it at least twice with my Thinkpad T495. Bootable USB with El Torito format, if I remember it correctly. Using Lenovo official ISO images and instructions, etc.
- gigel82 5y ago
  I can't find any Lenovo official documentation, but if you google for something like "lenovo laptop fn+r bios usb" you'll find a bunch of tutorials for how the recovery works. It does not work on the Flex model line-up though (I presume because they didn't include the bootstrapper firmware or some h/w component).

elric 5y ago

Gentle reminder that Lenovo jumped the shark quite a while ago. The whole Superfish debacle, the spyware, the crapware, the endless stream of shitty decisions. Year after year, the hardware gets worse. Customer support gets worse. The sad thing is that they're still better than everything else out there. Which says a lot about the laptop industry in general.

api 5y ago
PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. This is part of why people feel almost stuck with Apple. Their hardware is a lot better than most of the competition, though it comes with a price premium, and while there are privacy concerns they are less than with these shitware-loaded machines. You can also install Linux on them if you really want no telemetry at all, even with M1 Macs.
- gruez 5y ago
  > PC laptops are now budget machines so they compete on price. Anything that competes on price tends to become a deflationary race to the bottom. That really only applies to the consumer line. The thinkpad line is still pretty solid.
  - mhb 5y ago
    > The thinkpad line is still pretty solid. Meh. The trackpoint and keypad on my X1 are far inferior to previous Thinkpads, like the X220, before they decided their overarching mission was to make things as thin as possible. The trackpoint is sometimes unusable and is a chore to use at all times whereas the older ones were fun.
    - NathanielK 5y ago
      FWIW, Intel has been forcing manufacturers hand when it comes to thickness. Since their high performance laptop processors have stagnated on the last decade, they've created programs to encourage thin laptops. Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment. I won't give Lenovo a free pass, but it's part of why keytravel and cooling solutions are pretty awful in modern small laptops.

ArtTimeInvestor 5y ago

Any tablets out there that run Linux well?

mdoms 5y ago
Surface Pro.
- mishafb 5y ago
  I know it works but it just feels wrong
  - jrockway 5y ago
    It feels wrong to buy a Linux laptop from the company that makes Github? The Microsoft of the 2020s is a very different company from the Microsoft of the 1990s.
    - throw_m239339 5y ago
      > It feels wrong to buy a Linux laptop from the company that makes Github? that bought Github, and don't worry, Github is going to morph into yet another Microsoft entity in the next 5 years and everybody will move somewhere else...
      - aliswe 5y ago
        Microsoft is actively dismantling Azure DevOps and is moving all of their talent into Github.
    - Silhouette 5y ago
      The Microsoft of the 2020s is a very different company from the Microsoft of the 1990s. It is, but in a discussion about forced updates and overtly user-hostile changes, I'll take the Microsoft of the 1990s please.
    - fomine3 5y ago

JTbane 5y ago

Man, Lenovo used to produce some amazing machines, like the the Thinkpad 200 series, with great keyboards Now it seems like they are just pushing crap

sumtechguy 5y ago
My theory is that was a leftover from when they were IBM and had huge contracts (think along the lines of 40k laptops at a time). So if something went wrong and you pissed off the wrong guy at one of those companies they would hold you to the 'fixed by the end of the next day' part of the contract. So IBM took care to make sure that did not happen. When they got bought out I was pretty sure that quality would slide eventually to the bean counters.
numpad0 5y ago
Models up to it were even better, except in price and LCD contrast
onli 5y ago
Lenovo refused to repair a laptop of my wife that had a broken display (always stayed black), because the USB port was also broken. The plastic guide was pulled out by an USB device, actually another manufacturing defect. That laptop was ~6 month old. The otherwise pristine laptop was mistreated they claimed, a pure lie. That enterprise is evil and deserves no single cent. They sell cheap junk with adware/spyware and a fake warranty.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jollybean 5y ago

Microsoft needs to fix this. Edit: apparently I stand corrected I assumed this was a Windows Tablet, of course, the OS vendors should really step in here, they do have power in the equation. Ultimately, I would use the argument to the exec. team at Lenovo that the incremental revenue from these things just isn't worth it in the overall experience. Often teams are tasked with coming up with new revenue models, it's often an internal, organizational issue as opposed to a coherent product vision.

superjan 5y ago
This about an android tablet.
passivate 5y ago
Well, in this case the OS vendor itself is an adware/spyware company.

linguae 5y ago

This is despicable, and it's indicative of a trend I've been noticing over the years. Personal computing used to be about user empowerment. Today it seems to me that many tech companies treat their users as nothing more than either "eyeballs" to show ads to or as cows to be milked through vendor lock-in and subscription services. Either way, I feel the user experience has degraded in recent years, and I feel we increasingly have less control over our computers. Thankfully alternatives exist. Linux and the BSDs keep evolving, Haiku and ReactOS continue to develop and may one day reach daily-driver status, there's still a thriving market for building your own x86-64 PCs (I'll be building a Ryzen 9 machine this weekend), and products like the Framework laptop, the PineBook, and the Librem laptop have me excited. Hopefully these alternatives will continue to evolve and take root so that way there's a formidable challenger to Big Tech.

PostThisTooFast 5y ago
People put up with it, and we all suffer. Google recently shat out a similarly offensive update to Android TV, so now the only UI on people's $4000 Sony TVs is 1/3 advertisements for stuff the user often doesn't even have access to. Disgraceful.
ladyanita22 5y ago
> Thankfully alternatives exist. Linux and the BSDs keep evolving, Haiku and ReactOS continue to develop and may one day reach daily-driver status, there's still a thriving market for building your own x86-64 PCs (I'll be building a Ryzen 9 machine this weekend), and products like the Framework laptop, the PineBook, and the Librem laptop have me excited. Hopefully these alternatives will continue to evolve and take root so that way there's a formidable challenger to Big Tech. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rchaud 5y ago
My first laptop was a Toshiba Satellite in 2003 and it was crawling with bloatware, e.g Norton/Mcafee Antivirus popups. If you want to go bloat-free, buy from the business product lines, not the consumer ones. Although with the always-online Windows 11, it might be time to dump Windows altogether.

xg15 5y ago

What is increasingly scaring me: This time, the vendor was "nice" enough to only force you into viewing a subscription offer. However, there is really nothing technical that would keep them from forcing you to take the subscription if you want to continue using your device. Vendors have enough control about locked-down devices that they could play ransomware and make arbitrary demands to their users without many problems. And "device" can be anything from phones to cars to smart homes or expensive specialized equipment. I'm not sure how the legal situation is currently, but since the Stallman strategy of keeping devices free has evidently failed, I think it's high time for a comprehensive set of "digital consumer rights" that limit what vendors can do on "their" devices.

q-rews 5y ago
Yeah, sure, technically any vendor can push updates to brick your device, but that doesn’t happen because of the law. This stuff often gets through because it’s small enough, gray enough, and done by smaller companies. Have Apple pull something like this and you’ll see on the NYT.
- rpdillon 5y ago
  Not quite the same, but there was a story yesterday about Apple doing this with a "Try the new Safari" notification. I think this falls under your "gray enough" category, but it is interesting they violated their own design guidelines. Apple discussion: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228 HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28361730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28361730
- xg15 5y ago
  > and you’ll see on the NYT. And then what? It might generate a bit of outrage, but at the end of the day, users have no leverage (without legal support). No one wants to lose their device or the data on it, so for individual users, there are not a lot of options apart from doing whatever the vendor wants
  - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

seph-reed 5y ago

Is there a photo of what he's talking about anywhere?

RIMR 5y ago
I have been looking. I have a Lenovo tablet, it has the "Tips" app. That app cannot be disabled, and does have system control over the tablet, but I have never seen a notification come from it before.

rchaud 5y ago

Meanwhile, I'm on my Chuwi Hipad plus (a very capable iPad Pro ripoff) that runs stock Android with no issues. The vendor is too small-time to bother setting up post-sale monetization deals like this.

KoftaBob 5y ago

Between this, and a few other examples below, I can't help but notice a not-so-great trend among Chinese tech brands: 1. OnePlus: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/hds41u/oneplus_has_turned_oxygenos_into_an_advertising/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/hds41u/oneplus_has... 2. Xiaomi: https://www.androidauthority.com/remove-ads-xiaomi-miui-1019139/ https://www.androidauthority.com/remove-ads-xiaomi-miui-1019... 3. Huawei: https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/06/14/huawei-apparently-decides-it-needs-more-bad-press-puts-ads-on-phone-lock-screens/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/06/14/huawei-apparently-d...

Darmody 5y ago
Blokada blocked every ad on my Xiaomi. Even on some apps. I've also blocked manually a lot of domains with Blokada. It's amazing and it doesn't require rooting your device.

amelius 5y ago

Classic bait-and-switch.

ypcx 5y ago

As much as I'd love to have alternatives in this particular Simulation, there are none. You either use Apple and minimize your suffering, or you don't use Apple and go live in hell, provided by companies running their product design & development by teams of chimpanzees (obviously & unfortunately).

MBCook 5y ago
What about a MS Surface? Do they pull this stuff too? I was under the impression they were decent.
- sedatk 5y ago
  They're decent. Windows comes with a few bloatware (like Candy Crush Saga etc), but they can be easily uninstalled.
- nicbou 5y ago
  I bought one and returned it. It's a laptop without a keyboard, not a tablet. I spent the first day waiting for Windows Update and turning off telemetry and other annoyances. I spent the second day trying mamy apps that were significantly worse than Procreate. I returned it on the third day. If you want Windows on a tablet, with all its issues and annoyances, you'll get exactly that. If you want an iPad experience with access to productivity tools, you won't get it. I wanted an iPad for replacing a Moleskine and a laptop. The laptop replacement part was OK, but it was a very unpleasant drawing experience. Opening and editing files sucked all the fun out of it. Procreate on the iPad felt a lot closer to the real thing: flip through pages, select one, pick a tool, have fun. I can't overstate how annoyed and angry this tablet was making me compared to my friend's iPad.

chairmanwow1 5y ago

Well, Lenovo just lost my business forever.

dredmorbius 5y ago

With alternatives such as System76 and the modular Framework laptop emerging, as well as low-cost systems from Pine, Lenovo's claim as the default preferred choice of the Linux/*BSD and power-user set is very rapidly evaporating. I've bought Thinkpads personally and professionally for 20 years. Idiotic cunning stunts such as this and Superfish have removed it from any future consideration.

spaniard89277 5y ago
If they get similar build quality, then yes. I know I'll miss the track point, as it seems I'm the only one to use it a lot.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  I'm right with you on the trackpoint. That'll be sorely mised.
eikenberry 5y ago
Until System76 moves beyond the branded Clevo's they will not be able to compete with Thinkpads. They've talked about an internally developed laptop before, but still no sign of it. The Framework laptops have the most potential right now IMO. I'm watching them to see how things go and will probably pick up a second gen of their laptops if they keep looking good.
- 22c 5y ago
  >branded Clevo's I think it's a bit unfair to simply say they are "branded Clevo's". There was an interview about "right to repair" that I can't find right now where one of the founders of System76 addressed this and it sounds like they put a bit more effort into their hardware (and specifically, the accompanying middleware/firmware) than slapping some stickers on a Clevo. Edit: I still can't find the interview, which was a good one, but I found this [1] earlier comment from someone who works there. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refreshes_ubuntu_linux_laptops_with/ddvcx45/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...

acdha 5y ago

I guess I should feel lucky that Lenovo orphaned that tablet which came out shortly before Marshmallow and never got an OS update? Can’t ship ads if you never ship code. (More seriously, this is why I looked at but passed by all of their other devices. Maybe their PCs get better treatment but I have no guarantee that the same management won’t make the same call again.)

andyjohnson0 5y ago

I recently bought a Galaxy Tab S7+ and was surprised by the amount of bloatware that had been rammed into it. There was nothing as egregious as forced ads though. After an hour with adb I'd managed to uninstall almost all of the crap (particularly Bixby), but it really shouldn't be necessary to resort to such measures. Anyway: adb -d shell pm uninstall --user 0 <packagename>

breakingcups 5y ago
Note that this doesn't actually actually remove the package from your device, it just disables and hides it from your user profile.

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

Good. Lenovo owners deserve it

FridayoLeary 5y ago

The users were given the choice between accepting the endless lists of t&c's or using the tablet as an expensive paperweight. Lenovo is clearly in the right here. It's their software being used and if users are not happy they can just walk away. And how do you know that people don't find ads helpful?

Krasnol 5y ago
I'm not sure if this is a joke or just another person from the ad industry desperately trying to justify their moral free behaviour.

qwerty456127 5y ago

> from an app that cannot be uninstalled or disabled. IMHO lack of a reasonably easy way to root the device, install something like LineageOS or some custom mod and get rid of the apps you don't want already is a sufficient reason to avoid buying such a device.

DiabloD3 5y ago

And this is why you don't buy from bad vendors. Lenovo has been on everyone's shitlist for pulling this stuff at least once a year on some product or another. _Do not buy Lenovo, or this will happen to you_. I'm hoping the US actually passes European-style warranty and consumer protection laws to force companies to end the practice of adding malware and/or bricking devices and blaming the consumer for it. Until then, hit these companies where it hurts the most: their wallet.

rambojazz 5y ago

I'm disappointed that there is no screenshot of it.

tobr 5y ago

As a long-time Apple user, five years ago I would have laughed at this and said that that’s ridiculous. Unfortunately, Apple has started to do almost exactly the same thing. For example, in my iPhone settings, one of the first items at the moment is a promotion for an offer to get 1 year Apple TV+ for free. I can only dismiss it by tapping on it. It’s not the first such “offer” for an Apple service that I’ve had to dismiss, and there’s no way to say that I don’t want ads in my settings app. What does it have to do with settings anyway? In the past I’ve gotten promotions for Apple services as notifications as well.