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Forest Service officials close all California national forests

191 points by uptown 5y ago

justinzollars 5y ago
I just received a refund for a campsite : (
pokstad 5y ago
Perfect timing for Newsom
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Biden manages national forests, Newsom had no say.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    People blame government officials for things they have little if any control over.
  - akira2501 5y ago
    This always comes off as buck-shifting to me. Newsom is the governor of the 5th largest economy in the world, I'm sure there are many unconventional mechanisms available to him to get action on these things.
    - op00to 5y ago
      Get him action on what exactly?
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Much of the land in California, and throughout the west actually, is owned and managed by the federal government. State government doesn't have jurisdiction, they don't have funding, etc, to do much about that. The BLM isn't just an acronym used for Black Lives Matters (as wall as national forest land and national park land).
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      National Forests are federal land owned and managed by the federal government. Why would you think the governor of any state would seize those forests? Even if California decided to force those forests to be open...they're being closed because of the extreme fire danger in many parks. Why in the world would the state want to open them up? Fires don't care about property lines. A fire that starts in a National Forest will happily burn through an adjacent state forest or community.
      - akira2501 5y ago
        > Why would you think the governor of any state would seize those forests? Why would you come to that conclusion? He's a politician, I would assume he'd use _political_ pressure to get action. > Fires don't care about property lines. Precisely. If the land is being managed in a way that is raising risk and danger to surrounding land, why would you stand idly by and defer to Washington D.C?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Newsom had opportunities to get PG&E to bury power lines before they burned down half the state.
    - tmpz22 5y ago
      And his alternatives would've jumped on such a civics work project in time?
    - vlovich123 5y ago
      The Caldor fire has been conclusively linked to PG&E now?
    - jjulius 5y ago
      Newsom has been governor for two years, and you expect that all power lines in fire-risk areas could've been buried in that amount of time? And in national forests controlled by the federal government, not the state/Newsom?
    - xeromal 5y ago
      Some powerlines are over 100 years old. There's untold miles of lines they PG&E themselves don't even have mapped. No way it could be resolved in 2 years.
    - anigbrowl 5y ago
      Which would generate complaints like 'Newsom BANKRUPTS Californians - sends electricity bills SKY HIGH' or the like. Not that I'm a fan of Newsom particularly, but a lot of loudest political voices in the state aren't interested in any particular policy solutions, they're just against whatever comes along.
  - pokstad 5y ago
    > Regarding reducing the fuel load, in an interview four months ago, Newsom said that there are “Hundreds of millions of dead trees” in the state and that it cost his father $35,000 to clear “a small little patch of dead trees” on his property. > Newsom didn’t admit it, but the outrageous cost to remove a few dead trees from private land is a consequence of California’s Byzantine environmental regulatory patchwork. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/25/wildfires-caused-by-bad-environmental-policy-are-causing-california-forests-to-be-net-co2-emitters/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/25/wildfire...
    - OneEyedRobot 5y ago
      Although I'm not sure what difference it really makes vs. more heavily managing public land but our local planning commission makes it essentially impossible to remove trees. This is in an extreme fire risk area. Also, it's quite expense to remove general green waste. High dump fees, long distances to dump, burn piles not allowed, impossible to throw away various types of plants outside house garbage flow.
    - jjulius 5y ago
      That quote is about privately-owned land, not federally-owned land. You and the post you're responding to are both correct; the state is responsible for some areas, and the federal government is responsible for others.
      - pokstad 5y ago
        You’re missing something here. Fires can start on private and state land and then spread to national forests. Also, more and more Californians are moving away from the coast into rural suburbs due to cost of living. Additionally, due to COVID lockdowns, more people are camping than ever. Fires aren’t started by climate change, they’re started by humans.
        PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        I believe that in 2021, most of the wildfires in the west have been started by lightning rather than human error. If so, your final sentence is not really true, and might even be false.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tdhz77 5y ago
  HN is getting more political. Just something I’ve noticed. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but a reflection of political tribalism.
  - pokstad 5y ago
    I don’t belong to a tribe, but I can still appreciate how horribly run California is.
    - bsder 5y ago
      Okay, I'll take the troll bait. First, California seem to be dealing with the idiots that are the MAGA anti-vax crowd better than most. California isn't currently having people dying of things like pancreatic stones because it takes 6 hours to find an ICU bed. See: Texas and Florida. Second, California has quite a bit more of its population covered by healthcare because it went all-in on the ACA and Medicaid. See: Texas and Florida Third, California actually disbursed assistance that was supposed to go out--both unemployment and rental assistance. Contrast to: All Southern red states Fourth, in the middle of all this, California managed to run a surplus. Pretty good for a state that Republicans always claim is in the middle of meltdown. I really wish some of those Republicans would put their money where their mouth is and leave so I could buy a house. California sure as hell ain't perfect. It's easy to bitch and complain. It's easy to tear things down. It's really fucking hard to build shit, and, in some areas, California is trying. It needs to do better, but Democracy is, unfortunately, slow as shit. So, go pound sand with your talking points rhetoric.
      - dang 5y ago
        This sort of flamewar comment will get you banned here. We've had to warn you about this many times before. Not cool. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. That means making substantive points thoughtfully, and with respect for other users, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bsder 5y ago
  It is what it is. Part of leading the world's sixth largest economy is that the scale of your disasters is also bigger. I'm surprised it wasn't done before this as you really don't want to have to do evacuations of tourists on top of your evacuations of residents. However, most vacationers/tourists are done as school has restarted in most places (for better or worse). So, this isn't likely to impact voting much. As a side note: early ballots so far have been high. Lots of Democratic voters are pissed about this recall (it's costing a couple hundred million dollars for no good reason) and seem to be pretty motivated. That's probably good news for Newsom. However, don't take it for granted--go vote, dammit. Because the idiots behind this recall sure will.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The scale of forest fires in California has little to do with the scale of our state economy. If our economy was smaller we wouldn't necessarily have fewer wildfires. The recall election costs $276M. To put that in perspective it's about 0.1% of the state annual budget.
FooHentai 5y ago
https://archive.is/c4DpJ https://archive.is/c4DpJ
- judge2020 5y ago
  Official PDF: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd949147.pdf https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd949147....
Johnny555 5y ago
And they just evacuated the entire town of South Lake Tahoe. I hope the town survives. https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/more-evacuation-orders-issued-for-tahoe-residents-in-el-dorado-county/ https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/more-evacuation-order... https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/lake-tahoe-residents-flee-from-caldor-fire/ https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/lake-tahoe-residents-... https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/Caldor-Fire-Tahoe-evacuations-Sierra-map-where-16422453.php https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/Caldor-F...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hi_hello 5y ago
  Time lapses generated from two webcams around Tahoe: https://tahoesouth.com/things-to-do/lake-tahoe-webcams/ https://tahoesouth.com/things-to-do/lake-tahoe-webcams/
  - hammock 5y ago
    Link didn't work but i see a couple webcams covered by smoke
    - thestu 5y ago
      if you hit play in the bottom left of the webcam image it gives you a little time lapse video.
  - mym1990 5y ago
    “ bluer-than-blue Lake Tahoe, majestic mountains, more fun, sun, sand, snow, well, more of just about anything you’d want in your destination vacation.” I guess fire can be added to that now as well :(
- kaycebasques 5y ago
  My family has a cabin up there. Grandpa bought the land in the 50s and finally built on it in the 70s. Always imagined it would be there. Will be very strange if that's suddenly not true. Of course it's the way of all things but it's different when it's firsthand.
markoramius 5y ago
If Tahoe falls, it's going to get gentrified in one fell swoop. The locals who live there won't be able to afford to rebuild OR the fire insurance. Only people who can afford to build / buy will be overcompensated assholes. It'll turn into Carmel in the sierras.
purple_ferret 5y ago
can't imagine investing in California. Has to all come crashing down at some point. It's only going to get worse
- xanaxagoras 5y ago
  man I gotta get the F out of here...
londons_explore 5y ago
Interesting times when a forest can be 'closed'.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  The FS is not likely to try to actively patrol any and all access points to FS land. But they will put up barriers and signs, close facilities and so forth. If you are determined, I am sure you could get into most parts of most forests, but "forest closure" was never meant to imply otherwise.
  - boc 5y ago
    And if you start a fire due to negligence in a "closed" federal forest you're in for an absolute world of hurt.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      It's probably not going to feel so great if you're caught just being in the forests.
larkinrichards 5y ago
Was planning to hike the JMT starting tomorrow from cottonwood meadow and ending on the 22nd. Permits canceled at 6pm tonight. Anyone got recommendations for a last minute 20 day off grid vacation? Have car, supplies, ready to go.
- yurishimo 5y ago
  Drive east. I think a lot of Colorado is public? You’ve got the time!
- bglazer 5y ago
  Colorado trail? It would be quite the drive. Also probably a bit long for 20 days.
- COGlory 5y ago
  Go north. Montana, Idaho, etc. Wind River range is absolutely breathtaking. Just be grizzly aware.
  - tdhz77 5y ago
    You had me until the last part about the grizzlies.
    - protomyth 5y ago
      Taking Yellowstone for example For all park visitors combined, the chances of being injured by a grizzly bear are approximately 1 in 2.7 million visits. So very good odds. https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm
      - yupper32 5y ago
        Surely being in a very populated area of the park lessens the chance greatly. Which would mean 1 in 2.7 million visits isn't accurate for what they would be doing.
fasteddie31003 5y ago
The US National Forrest and Calfire have been on the losing side of this fire so far. All the technology that produces memes that spread across the globe in seconds and launches and lands orbital rockets flawlessly cannot stop this fire. This has been a dry summer which can be attributed to global warming. I for one am not a defeatist that will let global warming beat me. We need to think of solutions to fires like this. 1. We need to apply Phos-Chek from ground based units. 2. Building codes need to be updated to only allow fire resistant structures in wildfire prone areas. 3. Inhabited locations in fire prone areas need need active fire suppression infrastructure around them (agricultural level irrigation at the ready). 4. Forest management around inhabited areas need to reduce forest fire fuel.
- markdown 5y ago
  > global warming Calling it that can be a trap. Stick to climate change.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    No, we need to stick with global warming. Overwhelmingly the direction is warming.
    - wyre 5y ago
      I’ll stick with ‘impending climate disaster’ as winters are getting colder and more intense and infrastructure is more likely to fail in cold than heat.
      - BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
        What does impending mean to you?
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      Except that the actual global atmospheric warming is minimal, 0.14 C/decade. [0] The actual problem is climate change in the western part of the United States, coupled with higher population density, poor forest management, and poor power line maintenance. [0] https://www.drroyspencer.com/2021/08/uah-global-temperature-update-for-july-2021-0-20-deg-c/ https://www.drroyspencer.com/2021/08/uah-global-temperature-...
pininja 5y ago
Forrests are currently closed through September 17, 2021 at 11:59 p.m.
anm89 5y ago
Does anyone know, with the scope of fires over the last couple years, is California on track to naturally normalize by burning through the most vulnerable forests or is this still not on that scale?
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Dunno, but I heard estimated 60M dead trees to burn thru. Essentially every mountain slope in the state.
- ddp26 5y ago
  Roughly 4.3M acres burned in 2020 [1]. I've seen estimates that CA has 15M - 20M acres of overgrowth above equilibrium due to fire suppression and a slowdown of old fire prevention techniques. So, in roughly ~5 years, if we continue having massive fire seasons like 2020 and 2021. Though even at previous forest levels, hotter, drier summers could still lead to more fires than the historical average. Also this strategy may involve sacrificing a few not-so-small towns. [1] https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2020/ https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2020/
charles_f 5y ago
Sad but probably efficient. I'm in bc where we've been devastated by forest fires, with cities burning and thousands evacuated. And yet, every other time I get out into the forest I see idiots smoking their freaking joints. The soil is half buried in super dry pine needles, but people still want their kick.
- bamboozled 5y ago
  Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Because it's clearly a combination of things that are required to create a fire of this magnitude. Sure a joint could "start a fire" but a lot of other things could too. Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here and it's here for real.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    Wildfires can start from something as benign as a poorly managed manure pile.
  - orthecreedence 5y ago
    > Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Yes, absolutely yes. One tiny ember can smolder for days until it meets the exact right piece of fuel and sets off a full-blown fire. > Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here and it's here for real. Right, and as a result we either need to be a) more vigilant about not being idiots or b) keep doing everything as if nothing has changed and be fine wth the damage caused. Climate change is the underlying foundational issue here, but that isn't an excuse to not change our behavior.
  - carom 5y ago
    Driving back from camping last weekend I saw some dry median grass on fire, presumably from a flicked cigarette. So yes, a joint could start a fire.
  - charles_f 5y ago
    > Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Yes[^1]. > Sure a joint could "start a fire" but a lot of other things could too. This is whataboutism[^2]. The fact that other things can start a fire doesn't make starting it with a joint or cigarette less of a possibility > a combination of things that are required to create a fire Like hot weather and dry vegetation? > Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here And so we should stop smoking joints in the forest when it's hot and dry to prevent starting fires? [^1]: https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327 https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327 [^2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
gonesilent 5y ago
Not much to burn now on the fed forest lands....
paxys 5y ago
State & national parks won't be too far behind. Some of them are in very close proximity to the forests.
olivermarks 5y ago
The Reasons Behind California’s Wildfire | Lacy Schoen https://youtu.be/GL1Tnn5u6ng https://youtu.be/GL1Tnn5u6ng
- MichaelApproved 5y ago
  That video is produced by the Epoch Times. From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times > The Epoch Times is a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement. > The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation. In 2020, The New York Times called it a "global-scale misinformation machine".
  - olivermarks 5y ago
    So what? The person who is being interviewed is a California forestry expert with years of experience. https://www.nationalforests.org/who-we-are https://www.nationalforests.org/who-we-are The NYT is owned by the Sulzberger family, Time magazine is owned by Marc Benioff, the Washington Post by Bezos. If you dislike any of those people (some of whom are very closely affiliated with the DNC) does that make you refuse to look at anything they produce?! There is now overwhelming evidence academic environmentalists have done catastrophic damage to the west through refusal to allow fuel clearance.
    - MichaelApproved 5y ago
      If a media company promotes anti-vaccine and QAnon conspiracies, as the Epoch Times does, I will refuse to look at anything they produce. Those are my basic standards for how trustworthy a media company is. You’re free to choose your own.
      - olivermarks 5y ago
        I happen to know fire personnel in California and also people working as docents in redwood forests. If you choose to have your information laundered through your preferred political channels good luck with that. I think most of us can read or watch perspectives on RT, the BBC etc and know what their perspective is likely to be without being seduced or tainted by it. That video is very close to what I've been hearing from real people on the ground. I urge you to watch it.
BurningFrog 5y ago
Fires are early and big this year because of the very dry winter. It's going to get a lot worse. Peak fire season should still be in October, and be much bigger than now. Assuming the winter rain starts in November.
gorwell 5y ago
Can anyone explain this? "So early on, Newsom identified some key wildfire prevention projects, and that includes things like forest thinning and prescribed burns, and they were meant to protect some of the most vulnerable communities in California. And he claimed 90,000 acres were treated, but we found that's not true. The state's own data shows that, in reality, it was less than 12,000 acres, so just a fraction of what Newsom claimed. And looking at the bigger picture, not just those specific projects, we also found that the state's fire prevention work overall dropped by half last year, which was the worst wildfire season on record for California. And during that time, Newsom also slashed about $150 million from the state's wildfire prevention budget." https://www.npr.org/2021/06/25/1010382535/gavin-newsom-misled-public-about-wildfire-prevention-work-report-says https://www.npr.org/2021/06/25/1010382535/gavin-newsom-misle...
- mistrial9 5y ago
  "we also found that the state's fire prevention work overall dropped by half last year" that is utterly not true by any stretch of the words .. it is literally political theater hit piece. see for yourselves... https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/04/13/governor-newsom-signs-landmark-536-million-wildfire-package-accelerating-projects-to-protect-high-risk-communities/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/04/13/governor-newsom-signs-land... https://fmtf.fire.ca.gov/press-publications/ https://fmtf.fire.ca.gov/press-publications/ the claim is that a particular State of Calif, Dept of Forestry perhaps, program was supposed to thin acreage and had not done more than 12,000, and that is proof of the entire effort failing and unfunded? this seems to be the kind of writing that relies on a complete lack of history and context on the part of the reader, on the subject timeline and any previous events The State of Calif. has been very, very, very active along with a hundred high tech partners and the state resident academics. Huge volumes of money are in play as the State is rich at the moment. It strains the credibility of the printed word to pass on these rumors and tortured phrases for some backroom purpose. amazing
  - einarvollset 5y ago
    What are you talking about, my god.
  - 5y ago
pbuzbee 5y ago
I saw this map of roughly the last major fire in California: https://projects.capradio.org/california-fire-history/#6/38.58/-121.49 https://projects.capradio.org/california-fire-history/#6/38.... Looks like it's missing after 2019, but what sticks out to me is the difference in scale of past fires and current fires. If you imagine where the Dixie fire or last year's August Complex would fit in, they take up relatively huge amounts of the map. I'm sure at some point in the next 10-20 years, we'll have burned through most of the available fuel and wildfires won't be as bad. Of course, that's a pretty sad end state.
- SwankyDanky 5y ago
  Is it really? We got into this mess because we'd initially assumed that wildfires were "bad" and that we needed to stop ALL of them. However, we later found out just how beneficial small fires can be for the long-term health of a forest. If we can actually allocate funds and people towards this, it won't be an issue anymore.
  - pbuzbee 5y ago
    I see it as a concern because (1) a large portion of wild lands are burning within a short span of time. I would guess (no evidence, just a hunch) that burning was more dispersed in time before modern fire prevention. I also feel that (2) climate change makes these fires much worse, and forests will have a much harder time rebounding.
    - OneEyedRobot 5y ago
      Don't hold me to it, but I seem to remember seeing a study showing that prehistoric California had roughly 10x the current burn acreage.
      - ip26 5y ago
        Probably, but megafires sterilize the soil. Low intensity fires recover much more quickly. Ideally we'd be able to gradually reduce the burn backlog without letting it all go in a few really, really big years.
OneEyedRobot 5y ago
Not a bad tool for getting a bit of a handle on the fires. caltopo.com
exdsq 5y ago
When will people learn to rake their forests?
01100011 5y ago
So I'm all for blaming the ineffectual(or worse) govt agencies responsible for dropping the ball on fire prevention work, but are we going to talk about the communities that continue to ignore the CalFire recommendations for defensible space? I keep seeing footage of structures burning, and every time they are situated too close to fuel sources. I understand it's tough to sacrifice the aesthetics of your mountain community, but fire is a fact of life in CA and preparing for it is flat out irresponsible. I'm sorry if this comes across as victim blaming. I suppose it can't be anything but that. But people really need to take responsibility for fire prevention if they're going to live in a wilderness zone.
olivermarks 5y ago
https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-they-blame-heat-deaths https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-...
- slenk 5y ago
  I don't even know where to begin with that article, such a hacky mess and really not aything to do with the topic
StreamBright 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire_in_ecosystems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire_... We used to be able to manage this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
DisjointedHunt 5y ago
Literally a year ago , this story was on the front page of Hacker News: https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-... I don’t understand how a region with some of the smartest people on the planet can afford to excuse public officials abdication of their duties in something as obvious as burning half the state down every summer with smoke visible from satellite and no criticism, healthy or otherwise is tolerated. This and the drug abuse menace and the serious crime that consumes much of the “progressive” havens of the United States should be a cause for all citizens to question their continued support of administrations that literally burn the country down.
bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
Fingers crossed for September 18th…
coryfklein 5y ago
Is it just me or are the wildfires much much worse this decade than they were the previous two? I live in Utah where all the smoke from the west-coast wildfires likes to come take up residence, and I can't recall more than a single summer before 2015 when wildfire smoke was pervasive outdoors. But in just the past few years it seems that a good 50-80% of the summer the air outside is completely unbearable due to smoke. I can't be making this up, this must be a recent phenomenon. But my Google-fu is failing me in trying to find a chart that confirms my intuition. I'm curious: what changed, and when exactly did this new trend begin?

191 points by uptown 5y ago

justinzollars 5y ago

I just received a refund for a campsite : (

pokstad 5y ago

Perfect timing for Newsom

jdavis703 5y ago
Biden manages national forests, Newsom had no say.
- ghaff 5y ago
  People blame government officials for things they have little if any control over.
- akira2501 5y ago
  This always comes off as buck-shifting to me. Newsom is the governor of the 5th largest economy in the world, I'm sure there are many unconventional mechanisms available to him to get action on these things.
  - op00to 5y ago
    Get him action on what exactly?
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Much of the land in California, and throughout the west actually, is owned and managed by the federal government. State government doesn't have jurisdiction, they don't have funding, etc, to do much about that. The BLM isn't just an acronym used for Black Lives Matters (as wall as national forest land and national park land).
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    National Forests are federal land owned and managed by the federal government. Why would you think the governor of any state would seize those forests? Even if California decided to force those forests to be open...they're being closed because of the extreme fire danger in many parks. Why in the world would the state want to open them up? Fires don't care about property lines. A fire that starts in a National Forest will happily burn through an adjacent state forest or community.
    - akira2501 5y ago
      > Why would you think the governor of any state would seize those forests? Why would you come to that conclusion? He's a politician, I would assume he'd use _political_ pressure to get action. > Fires don't care about property lines. Precisely. If the land is being managed in a way that is raising risk and danger to surrounding land, why would you stand idly by and defer to Washington D.C?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Newsom had opportunities to get PG&E to bury power lines before they burned down half the state.
  - tmpz22 5y ago
    And his alternatives would've jumped on such a civics work project in time?
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    The Caldor fire has been conclusively linked to PG&E now?
  - jjulius 5y ago
    Newsom has been governor for two years, and you expect that all power lines in fire-risk areas could've been buried in that amount of time? And in national forests controlled by the federal government, not the state/Newsom?
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Some powerlines are over 100 years old. There's untold miles of lines they PG&E themselves don't even have mapped. No way it could be resolved in 2 years.
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    Which would generate complaints like 'Newsom BANKRUPTS Californians - sends electricity bills SKY HIGH' or the like. Not that I'm a fan of Newsom particularly, but a lot of loudest political voices in the state aren't interested in any particular policy solutions, they're just against whatever comes along.
- pokstad 5y ago
  > Regarding reducing the fuel load, in an interview four months ago, Newsom said that there are “Hundreds of millions of dead trees” in the state and that it cost his father $35,000 to clear “a small little patch of dead trees” on his property. > Newsom didn’t admit it, but the outrageous cost to remove a few dead trees from private land is a consequence of California’s Byzantine environmental regulatory patchwork. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/25/wildfires-caused-by-bad-environmental-policy-are-causing-california-forests-to-be-net-co2-emitters/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2019/02/25/wildfire...
  - OneEyedRobot 5y ago
    Although I'm not sure what difference it really makes vs. more heavily managing public land but our local planning commission makes it essentially impossible to remove trees. This is in an extreme fire risk area. Also, it's quite expense to remove general green waste. High dump fees, long distances to dump, burn piles not allowed, impossible to throw away various types of plants outside house garbage flow.
  - jjulius 5y ago
    That quote is about privately-owned land, not federally-owned land. You and the post you're responding to are both correct; the state is responsible for some areas, and the federal government is responsible for others.
    - pokstad 5y ago
      You’re missing something here. Fires can start on private and state land and then spread to national forests. Also, more and more Californians are moving away from the coast into rural suburbs due to cost of living. Additionally, due to COVID lockdowns, more people are camping than ever. Fires aren’t started by climate change, they’re started by humans.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        I believe that in 2021, most of the wildfires in the west have been started by lightning rather than human error. If so, your final sentence is not really true, and might even be false.
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tdhz77 5y ago
HN is getting more political. Just something I’ve noticed. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but a reflection of political tribalism.
- pokstad 5y ago
  I don’t belong to a tribe, but I can still appreciate how horribly run California is.
  - bsder 5y ago
    Okay, I'll take the troll bait. First, California seem to be dealing with the idiots that are the MAGA anti-vax crowd better than most. California isn't currently having people dying of things like pancreatic stones because it takes 6 hours to find an ICU bed. See: Texas and Florida. Second, California has quite a bit more of its population covered by healthcare because it went all-in on the ACA and Medicaid. See: Texas and Florida Third, California actually disbursed assistance that was supposed to go out--both unemployment and rental assistance. Contrast to: All Southern red states Fourth, in the middle of all this, California managed to run a surplus. Pretty good for a state that Republicans always claim is in the middle of meltdown. I really wish some of those Republicans would put their money where their mouth is and leave so I could buy a house. California sure as hell ain't perfect. It's easy to bitch and complain. It's easy to tear things down. It's really fucking hard to build shit, and, in some areas, California is trying. It needs to do better, but Democracy is, unfortunately, slow as shit. So, go pound sand with your talking points rhetoric.
    - dang 5y ago
      This sort of flamewar comment will get you banned here. We've had to warn you about this many times before. Not cool. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. That means making substantive points thoughtfully, and with respect for other users, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bsder 5y ago
It is what it is. Part of leading the world's sixth largest economy is that the scale of your disasters is also bigger. I'm surprised it wasn't done before this as you really don't want to have to do evacuations of tourists on top of your evacuations of residents. However, most vacationers/tourists are done as school has restarted in most places (for better or worse). So, this isn't likely to impact voting much. As a side note: early ballots so far have been high. Lots of Democratic voters are pissed about this recall (it's costing a couple hundred million dollars for no good reason) and seem to be pretty motivated. That's probably good news for Newsom. However, don't take it for granted--go vote, dammit. Because the idiots behind this recall sure will.
- nradov 5y ago
  The scale of forest fires in California has little to do with the scale of our state economy. If our economy was smaller we wouldn't necessarily have fewer wildfires. The recall election costs $276M. To put that in perspective it's about 0.1% of the state annual budget.

FooHentai 5y ago

https://archive.is/c4DpJ https://archive.is/c4DpJ

judge2020 5y ago
Official PDF: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd949147.pdf https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd949147....

Johnny555 5y ago

And they just evacuated the entire town of South Lake Tahoe. I hope the town survives. https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/more-evacuation-orders-issued-for-tahoe-residents-in-el-dorado-county/ https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/more-evacuation-order... https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/lake-tahoe-residents-flee-from-caldor-fire/ https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/lake-tahoe-residents-... https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/Caldor-Fire-Tahoe-evacuations-Sierra-map-where-16422453.php https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/Caldor-F...

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hi_hello 5y ago
Time lapses generated from two webcams around Tahoe: https://tahoesouth.com/things-to-do/lake-tahoe-webcams/ https://tahoesouth.com/things-to-do/lake-tahoe-webcams/
- hammock 5y ago
  Link didn't work but i see a couple webcams covered by smoke
  - thestu 5y ago
    if you hit play in the bottom left of the webcam image it gives you a little time lapse video.
- mym1990 5y ago
  “ bluer-than-blue Lake Tahoe, majestic mountains, more fun, sun, sand, snow, well, more of just about anything you’d want in your destination vacation.” I guess fire can be added to that now as well :(
kaycebasques 5y ago
My family has a cabin up there. Grandpa bought the land in the 50s and finally built on it in the 70s. Always imagined it would be there. Will be very strange if that's suddenly not true. Of course it's the way of all things but it's different when it's firsthand.

markoramius 5y ago

If Tahoe falls, it's going to get gentrified in one fell swoop. The locals who live there won't be able to afford to rebuild OR the fire insurance. Only people who can afford to build / buy will be overcompensated assholes. It'll turn into Carmel in the sierras.

purple_ferret 5y ago

can't imagine investing in California. Has to all come crashing down at some point. It's only going to get worse

xanaxagoras 5y ago
man I gotta get the F out of here...

londons_explore 5y ago

Interesting times when a forest can be 'closed'.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
The FS is not likely to try to actively patrol any and all access points to FS land. But they will put up barriers and signs, close facilities and so forth. If you are determined, I am sure you could get into most parts of most forests, but "forest closure" was never meant to imply otherwise.
- boc 5y ago
  And if you start a fire due to negligence in a "closed" federal forest you're in for an absolute world of hurt.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    It's probably not going to feel so great if you're caught just being in the forests.

larkinrichards 5y ago

Was planning to hike the JMT starting tomorrow from cottonwood meadow and ending on the 22nd. Permits canceled at 6pm tonight. Anyone got recommendations for a last minute 20 day off grid vacation? Have car, supplies, ready to go.

yurishimo 5y ago
Drive east. I think a lot of Colorado is public? You’ve got the time!
bglazer 5y ago
Colorado trail? It would be quite the drive. Also probably a bit long for 20 days.
COGlory 5y ago
Go north. Montana, Idaho, etc. Wind River range is absolutely breathtaking. Just be grizzly aware.
- tdhz77 5y ago
  You had me until the last part about the grizzlies.
  - protomyth 5y ago
    Taking Yellowstone for example For all park visitors combined, the chances of being injured by a grizzly bear are approximately 1 in 2.7 million visits. So very good odds. https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm
    - yupper32 5y ago
      Surely being in a very populated area of the park lessens the chance greatly. Which would mean 1 in 2.7 million visits isn't accurate for what they would be doing.

fasteddie31003 5y ago

The US National Forrest and Calfire have been on the losing side of this fire so far. All the technology that produces memes that spread across the globe in seconds and launches and lands orbital rockets flawlessly cannot stop this fire. This has been a dry summer which can be attributed to global warming. I for one am not a defeatist that will let global warming beat me. We need to think of solutions to fires like this. 1. We need to apply Phos-Chek from ground based units. 2. Building codes need to be updated to only allow fire resistant structures in wildfire prone areas. 3. Inhabited locations in fire prone areas need need active fire suppression infrastructure around them (agricultural level irrigation at the ready). 4. Forest management around inhabited areas need to reduce forest fire fuel.

markdown 5y ago
> global warming Calling it that can be a trap. Stick to climate change.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  No, we need to stick with global warming. Overwhelmingly the direction is warming.
  - wyre 5y ago
    I’ll stick with ‘impending climate disaster’ as winters are getting colder and more intense and infrastructure is more likely to fail in cold than heat.
    - BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
      What does impending mean to you?
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    Except that the actual global atmospheric warming is minimal, 0.14 C/decade. [0] The actual problem is climate change in the western part of the United States, coupled with higher population density, poor forest management, and poor power line maintenance. [0] https://www.drroyspencer.com/2021/08/uah-global-temperature-update-for-july-2021-0-20-deg-c/ https://www.drroyspencer.com/2021/08/uah-global-temperature-...

pininja 5y ago

Forrests are currently closed through September 17, 2021 at 11:59 p.m.

anm89 5y ago

Does anyone know, with the scope of fires over the last couple years, is California on track to naturally normalize by burning through the most vulnerable forests or is this still not on that scale?

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Dunno, but I heard estimated 60M dead trees to burn thru. Essentially every mountain slope in the state.
ddp26 5y ago
Roughly 4.3M acres burned in 2020 [1]. I've seen estimates that CA has 15M - 20M acres of overgrowth above equilibrium due to fire suppression and a slowdown of old fire prevention techniques. So, in roughly ~5 years, if we continue having massive fire seasons like 2020 and 2021. Though even at previous forest levels, hotter, drier summers could still lead to more fires than the historical average. Also this strategy may involve sacrificing a few not-so-small towns. [1] https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2020/ https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2020/

charles_f 5y ago

Sad but probably efficient. I'm in bc where we've been devastated by forest fires, with cities burning and thousands evacuated. And yet, every other time I get out into the forest I see idiots smoking their freaking joints. The soil is half buried in super dry pine needles, but people still want their kick.

bamboozled 5y ago
Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Because it's clearly a combination of things that are required to create a fire of this magnitude. Sure a joint could "start a fire" but a lot of other things could too. Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here and it's here for real.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Wildfires can start from something as benign as a poorly managed manure pile.
- orthecreedence 5y ago
  > Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Yes, absolutely yes. One tiny ember can smolder for days until it meets the exact right piece of fuel and sets off a full-blown fire. > Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here and it's here for real. Right, and as a result we either need to be a) more vigilant about not being idiots or b) keep doing everything as if nothing has changed and be fine wth the damage caused. Climate change is the underlying foundational issue here, but that isn't an excuse to not change our behavior.
- carom 5y ago
  Driving back from camping last weekend I saw some dry median grass on fire, presumably from a flicked cigarette. So yes, a joint could start a fire.
- charles_f 5y ago
  > Do you think that smokin' a joint is really enough to set off something like this? Yes[^1]. > Sure a joint could "start a fire" but a lot of other things could too. This is whataboutism[^2]. The fact that other things can start a fire doesn't make starting it with a joint or cigarette less of a possibility > a combination of things that are required to create a fire Like hot weather and dry vegetation? > Maybe we just don't like to admit it but climate change is here And so we should stop smoking joints in the forest when it's hot and dry to prevent starting fires? [^1]: https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327 https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327 [^2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

gonesilent 5y ago

Not much to burn now on the fed forest lands....

paxys 5y ago

State & national parks won't be too far behind. Some of them are in very close proximity to the forests.

olivermarks 5y ago

The Reasons Behind California’s Wildfire | Lacy Schoen https://youtu.be/GL1Tnn5u6ng https://youtu.be/GL1Tnn5u6ng

MichaelApproved 5y ago
That video is produced by the Epoch Times. From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times > The Epoch Times is a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement. > The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation. In 2020, The New York Times called it a "global-scale misinformation machine".
- olivermarks 5y ago
  So what? The person who is being interviewed is a California forestry expert with years of experience. https://www.nationalforests.org/who-we-are https://www.nationalforests.org/who-we-are The NYT is owned by the Sulzberger family, Time magazine is owned by Marc Benioff, the Washington Post by Bezos. If you dislike any of those people (some of whom are very closely affiliated with the DNC) does that make you refuse to look at anything they produce?! There is now overwhelming evidence academic environmentalists have done catastrophic damage to the west through refusal to allow fuel clearance.
  - MichaelApproved 5y ago
    If a media company promotes anti-vaccine and QAnon conspiracies, as the Epoch Times does, I will refuse to look at anything they produce. Those are my basic standards for how trustworthy a media company is. You’re free to choose your own.
    - olivermarks 5y ago
      I happen to know fire personnel in California and also people working as docents in redwood forests. If you choose to have your information laundered through your preferred political channels good luck with that. I think most of us can read or watch perspectives on RT, the BBC etc and know what their perspective is likely to be without being seduced or tainted by it. That video is very close to what I've been hearing from real people on the ground. I urge you to watch it.

BurningFrog 5y ago

Fires are early and big this year because of the very dry winter. It's going to get a lot worse. Peak fire season should still be in October, and be much bigger than now. Assuming the winter rain starts in November.

gorwell 5y ago

Can anyone explain this? "So early on, Newsom identified some key wildfire prevention projects, and that includes things like forest thinning and prescribed burns, and they were meant to protect some of the most vulnerable communities in California. And he claimed 90,000 acres were treated, but we found that's not true. The state's own data shows that, in reality, it was less than 12,000 acres, so just a fraction of what Newsom claimed. And looking at the bigger picture, not just those specific projects, we also found that the state's fire prevention work overall dropped by half last year, which was the worst wildfire season on record for California. And during that time, Newsom also slashed about $150 million from the state's wildfire prevention budget." https://www.npr.org/2021/06/25/1010382535/gavin-newsom-misled-public-about-wildfire-prevention-work-report-says https://www.npr.org/2021/06/25/1010382535/gavin-newsom-misle...

mistrial9 5y ago
"we also found that the state's fire prevention work overall dropped by half last year" that is utterly not true by any stretch of the words .. it is literally political theater hit piece. see for yourselves... https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/04/13/governor-newsom-signs-landmark-536-million-wildfire-package-accelerating-projects-to-protect-high-risk-communities/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/04/13/governor-newsom-signs-land... https://fmtf.fire.ca.gov/press-publications/ https://fmtf.fire.ca.gov/press-publications/ the claim is that a particular State of Calif, Dept of Forestry perhaps, program was supposed to thin acreage and had not done more than 12,000, and that is proof of the entire effort failing and unfunded? this seems to be the kind of writing that relies on a complete lack of history and context on the part of the reader, on the subject timeline and any previous events The State of Calif. has been very, very, very active along with a hundred high tech partners and the state resident academics. Huge volumes of money are in play as the State is rich at the moment. It strains the credibility of the printed word to pass on these rumors and tortured phrases for some backroom purpose. amazing
- einarvollset 5y ago
  What are you talking about, my god.
- 5y ago

pbuzbee 5y ago

I saw this map of roughly the last major fire in California: https://projects.capradio.org/california-fire-history/#6/38.58/-121.49 https://projects.capradio.org/california-fire-history/#6/38.... Looks like it's missing after 2019, but what sticks out to me is the difference in scale of past fires and current fires. If you imagine where the Dixie fire or last year's August Complex would fit in, they take up relatively huge amounts of the map. I'm sure at some point in the next 10-20 years, we'll have burned through most of the available fuel and wildfires won't be as bad. Of course, that's a pretty sad end state.

SwankyDanky 5y ago
Is it really? We got into this mess because we'd initially assumed that wildfires were "bad" and that we needed to stop ALL of them. However, we later found out just how beneficial small fires can be for the long-term health of a forest. If we can actually allocate funds and people towards this, it won't be an issue anymore.
- pbuzbee 5y ago
  I see it as a concern because (1) a large portion of wild lands are burning within a short span of time. I would guess (no evidence, just a hunch) that burning was more dispersed in time before modern fire prevention. I also feel that (2) climate change makes these fires much worse, and forests will have a much harder time rebounding.
  - OneEyedRobot 5y ago
    Don't hold me to it, but I seem to remember seeing a study showing that prehistoric California had roughly 10x the current burn acreage.
    - ip26 5y ago
      Probably, but megafires sterilize the soil. Low intensity fires recover much more quickly. Ideally we'd be able to gradually reduce the burn backlog without letting it all go in a few really, really big years.

OneEyedRobot 5y ago

Not a bad tool for getting a bit of a handle on the fires. caltopo.com

exdsq 5y ago

When will people learn to rake their forests?

01100011 5y ago

So I'm all for blaming the ineffectual(or worse) govt agencies responsible for dropping the ball on fire prevention work, but are we going to talk about the communities that continue to ignore the CalFire recommendations for defensible space? I keep seeing footage of structures burning, and every time they are situated too close to fuel sources. I understand it's tough to sacrifice the aesthetics of your mountain community, but fire is a fact of life in CA and preparing for it is flat out irresponsible. I'm sorry if this comes across as victim blaming. I suppose it can't be anything but that. But people really need to take responsibility for fire prevention if they're going to live in a wilderness zone.

olivermarks 5y ago

https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-they-blame-heat-deaths https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/the-real-reason-...

slenk 5y ago
I don't even know where to begin with that article, such a hacky mess and really not aything to do with the topic

StreamBright 5y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire_in_ecosystems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire_... We used to be able to manage this.

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DisjointedHunt 5y ago

Literally a year ago , this story was on the front page of Hacker News: https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-... I don’t understand how a region with some of the smartest people on the planet can afford to excuse public officials abdication of their duties in something as obvious as burning half the state down every summer with smoke visible from satellite and no criticism, healthy or otherwise is tolerated. This and the drug abuse menace and the serious crime that consumes much of the “progressive” havens of the United States should be a cause for all citizens to question their continued support of administrations that literally burn the country down.

bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago

Fingers crossed for September 18th…

coryfklein 5y ago

Is it just me or are the wildfires much much worse this decade than they were the previous two? I live in Utah where all the smoke from the west-coast wildfires likes to come take up residence, and I can't recall more than a single summer before 2015 when wildfire smoke was pervasive outdoors. But in just the past few years it seems that a good 50-80% of the summer the air outside is completely unbearable due to smoke. I can't be making this up, this must be a recent phenomenon. But my Google-fu is failing me in trying to find a chart that confirms my intuition. I'm curious: what changed, and when exactly did this new trend begin?