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Solar is dirt-cheap and about to get even more powerful
- david-gpu 5y agohttps://archive.is/sMoL0 https://archive.is/sMoL0
- hyperpallium2 5y agoAny good experiences with solar chargers, for phones? I had a great 7W one (ALDI, Bosch panel, before they exited) years ago - full current even on a late afternoon winter's day, provided the sun was normal to the mono-crystaline panel. Mine was stolen 7 years ago when camping. Panels have supposedly improved since then, but I've not seen it in this form factor.
- Scoundreller 5y agoFolding or no? I got a Lixada clone from ebay for $10 or $20, I forget. Has a USB port on it. Advertised as 10w, but most people get 4w out of it. Like this one: https://www.amazon.ca/Lixada-Portable-Charger-Outdoor-Camping/dp/B071Z1LGFV https://www.amazon.ca/Lixada-Portable-Charger-Outdoor-Campin... You could also get a standard 12V/14V or whatever panel and rig a car cigarette light USB adapter to it. They're usually very efficient, cheap and can handle like 8-24V just fine.
- hyperpallium2 5y agoThanks, folding's better for camping, but whatever is available. That linked one is super thin and light, and much smaller area than my old one. Their claimed "20% conversion" is higher, IIRC, part explains it. The exact direction makes a disproportionate difference (beyond dot product), and probably cloudiness too. I hadn't thought of using a car cigarette lighter USB adapter - isn't there an issue with non-smooth voltage regulation, that might harm a smartphone? Actually, I don't know what phones can handle, nor what panels typically put out, nor how the "solar chargers" deal with it. A better long-term solution might be to replace a phone's Li-on battery with (small 12v motorbike) lead-acid battery, for far longer life-time. But heavier for camping etc.
- Scoundreller 5y agocigarette lighter adapters are usually pretty good. Especially when they don't need to filter whatever crap is happening on an automotive supply (lots of EMI). They'll regulate output to 5V and a smartphone won't be harmed by it. Too much current won't be a problem for a smartphone, it won't take more than it can handle.
- cbmuser 5y agoYes, but it doesn’t provide baseload elevator and therefore requires backup power plants which cost extra money. Germany has invested a lot in wind and solar and as a result they have the highest electricity prices in the world: > https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price... Yet, Germany’s energy sector is seven times dirtier than France’s: > https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-emissions-by-sector?tab=table&country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-emissions-by-sector?t... France has 50 million tons of CO2 per year, Germany 350 million tons of CO2 per year in the energy sector. Germans pay over 30 cents/kWh, the French pay about 20 cents/kWh.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y agoBecause Germany has shut down their nuclear plants, and France didn't. Nuclear energy is greenest energy possible, but some people are too influenced by endless fear-mongering to accept that.
- puranjay 5y agoSeems so absurd to me that we already have the solution to our energy problems - nuclear. But for some reason we just don’t want to use it.
- otherme123 5y agoShutting down nuclear plants is an error. But building more of them is also a mistake. France is slowly stopping their plants to make room for the cheaper wind and PV. And the nuclear plants currently being built are an economical nightmare both for EDF and the gobernment: frenchs are paying a hidden cost in "cheap" nuclear electricity by subsidizing EDF through the backdoor.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y agoThe cost of nuclear energy is rising only because unlike wind and solar energy it faces more and more restrictions, regulations and bureaucracy redtape. This is a direct result of above-mentioned fear-mongering. Had it received support and proper funding for R&D, by now we'd been swimming in cheap, abundant, reliable and safe nuclear power.
- marsven_422 5y agoSolar is an excellent personal power solution, it is not a system solution.
- foxpurple 5y agoPaywall article so I’ll just share a random interesting fact. Solar is so prevalent in Australia that power prices regularly go negative as supply exceeds demand. One interesting thing that is starting to happen is companies like Tesla build huge battery banks and buy cheap or negative price power and then sell it back a few hours later when it is much more expensive.
- spoonjim 5y agoWhy would the price go negative? If you have excess solar capacity why would you need to pay someone to take it from you? Why not just sink it into the ground or something?
- foobar33333 5y agoIt's some what of a recent thing. They are bringing in new laws to allow the grid to shut off your solar feed back when there is an oversupply but currently it just causes a big problem and negative prices.
- d1str0 5y agoThat infrastructure might not exist. Also, you probably dont get money, you probably get credit. So having batteries connected benefits the grid rather than wasting electricity.
- adrusi 5y agoIt's not actually that easy to burn away excess power when you're operating at grid scale.
- shadilay 5y agoI'm surprised solar is not more common for its secondary use as building insulation. Black/gray roofs absorb lots of solar radiation.
- Consultant32452 5y agoIn the places with the most sun you are trying to cool the home, not heat it.
- Dylan16807 5y agoYes, that's what they're saying.
- shadilay 5y agoIt absorbs energy electrically ~20%, as well as reflects it. Panels are also usually mounted several inches above the roof creating an air gap.
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- tomrod 5y agoIn this case, would an airgap not suffice?
- jandrese 5y agoThat is exactly what the solar panels do. They aren't mounted directly on the shingles but offset a couple of inches from the roof. The area under the panels tends to be cooler than the rest of the roof.
- post_break 5y agoHe's saying it helps cool the roof. You can 100% see the difference between a roof with solar and one without. The one with solar will be cooler.
- state_less 5y agoI recently bought a set of 360 watt panels from LG and not more than a couple months later they came about with 400 watt panels in the same form factor (40” x 66”). Even though that can be frustrating, I am glad the tech is improving at a good clip. While we wait for sorely needed battery cost reductions, it’s good to look at areas where we can ‘make hay while the sun is shining’. For example, train ML models during sunny days. Other industries might be aluminum, desalination, ice making (i.e. cooling), and other production (ideas welcome).
- ekianjo 5y ago> it’s good to look at areas where we can ‘make hay while the sun is shining’ I hope not, it would be really backwards if we had to adjust everything we do to sunlight. Imagine if you can't do proper work during rainy seasons?
- Whatarethese 5y agoHow much did those 360w panels run you?
- ericwooley 5y agoIt seems like the battery issue is actually a solved problem. Just a matter of getting it done. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectric... https://www.npr.org/transcripts/620288114 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/620288114 Maybe someone smarter can tell me why pumped storage is actually not going to work, or why we don't have more of it already
- credit_guy 5y agoThere are multiple options to store energy from day to night, including pumped storage. The really big challenge is to store energy from summer to winter. When you store energy to use it at night, you only need to store about 12 hours worth of energy consumption, when you store it for winter, you are talking about months of consumption.
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- hamandcheese 5y agoThe article mentions “watts per panel” but makes no mention of the size of a panel. More importantly, the article also makes no mention of the efficiency of solar panels.
- nostrademons 5y agoManufacturer's websites usually have this info easily accessible, eg. LG's 380W watt panels are about 1.7m x 1.0m. https://www.lg.com/global/business/download/resources/solar/NeonR_60_V5_90812.pdf https://www.lg.com/global/business/download/resources/solar/...
- bufferoverflow 5y agoI'm in the sunny state, looking to install 15-20 kW solar panels. It's anything but dirt cheap. The quotes you see in the news (like 1.04c/kWh) are for huge industrial installations in deserts in some countries with close to no regulations. My residential solar will be ridiculously expensive, probably close to $20K.
- 01100011 5y agoFrom society's perspective, isn't it better if the solar panels all end up in large installations where they can benefit from economies of scale as far as maintenance, infrastructure, and installations costs go? As long as there is an empty warehouse rooftop in the sunbelt, there shouldn't be a residential solar install occuring. I say this as someone who had a solar install on his old house, but still, the costs should have been such that it discouraged me and encouraged industrial installs.
- epistasis 5y agoThere are even higher benefits by reducing the transmission and distribution requirements. T&D is hugely expensive, and local installs of solar reduces costs for the neighbors of whomever get solar installed. Industrial installs are encouraged by utilities because they increase dependence on expensive, centralized, infrastructure. And for regulated utilities, this sort of infrastructure expense is easy to rate-base and increase profits. But independent modelers that have been looking at fine-grained grid modeling, like Christopher Clack, have found huge cost savings by deploying massive amounts of storage and solar at residential and C&I locations first in the coming years, before doing larger industrial scar installations.
- aledalgrande 5y agoYep 5% of electricity just wasted on resistance [1]. Also all the dangerous/expensive components of an electrical grid could be reduced, if energy was more decentralized. Don't think we're any close to that though. PS: it's also a harder system to attack for malicious operators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Lo...
- sarak12070 5y agobruvelo review with discount offer https://topsaleproductsonline.blogspot.com/2021/07/bruvelo-review-with-discount-offer.html https://topsaleproductsonline.blogspot.com/2021/07/bruvelo-r... Girl, 6, identifies 93 airlines in one minute for world record https://www.interestingnews.club/2021/07/girl-6-identifies-93-airlines-in-one.html https://www.interestingnews.club/2021/07/girl-6-identifies-9... Best tips to take care of your skin in rainy season http://healthwithbeauty.xyz/2021/06/22/best-tips-to-take-care-of-your-skin-in-rainy-season/ http://healthwithbeauty.xyz/2021/06/22/best-tips-to-take-car...
- moultano 5y agoI hope these get cheap enough that every house in the tropics gets them on their rooves. AC is going to become essential as temperatures rise, the grid can't support the load, and we can't afford to power all those ACs with fossil fuel. Solar powered AC seems like the most reliable way to survive a severe heatwave like the one described in the opening chapter of The Ministry of the Future: https://www.orbitbooks.net/orbit-excerpts/the-ministry-for-the-future/ https://www.orbitbooks.net/orbit-excerpts/the-ministry-for-t... You can't rely on the underprovisioned grid in a scenario like that, especially since the heatwave will likely drive the power plants themselves out of their operating range. Solar seems like the only way. Its intermittency is a problem on general, but clouds that would disrupt the power would also stop the heat.
- ekianjo 5y ago> AC is going to become essential as temperatures rise, the grid can't support the load What are you talking about? Electricity consumption due to AC is absolutely minimal, much less that heating houses in winter.
- Scoundreller 5y agoMost places with heavy heating loads use biomass, natural gas or fueloil. Electricity demand is limited to the exhaust/circulation fan.
- cartoonworld 5y agoI don't think "absolutely minimal" is the correct description of the nature of A/C electrical demand. EIA places the total percentage of A/C electrical expenditures at %12 in 2015[0], energy.gov cites it at 6% of the total usage[1]. This number looks pretty "meh", however note that A/C demand is highly variable, seasonal, and on a daily basis will spike quite a bit. Contextualized with the annual data this is positioned within, the %6 usage is concentrated regionally, during the day, in the vaguely 4-month summer season in CONUS. Contrasted with heating electrical requirements, which operate more or less all the time in the winter (to prevent freezing pipes, and thermal inertia of a cold-ass house) and the averages of the electrical demand begin to look a lot different. The relatively low aggregate demand is smoothed out of the highly variable nature of A/C load. Electrical load is immediately produced and consumed for the most part. An electrical grid will struggle to supply this peak-load demand a small but critical percentage of the time. This A/C demand happily coincides with the times solar power will be most effective. It appears to me that solar is very well suited to augment the baseline load of a national/regional electrical grid to support peak summer demand. There is also some effect of the increased summertime temperatures on electrical grid transmission losses[2], but I'm not sure how all that shakes out. [0] - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36692 [1] - https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/home-cooling-systems/air-conditioning https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/home-cooling-systems/air-... [2] - https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/11/114008 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/11/1...
- throwawayboise 5y agoGood lord that is an annoying website. I had to stop reading.
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- elihu 5y agoI noticed this last time I was in Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/100-watt-monocrystalline-solar-panel-57325.html https://www.harborfreight.com/100-watt-monocrystalline-solar... Not sure if these are much good, but the price seems reasonable for a retail-packaged solar panel. 18-ish volts is kind of an odd voltage to deal with perhaps, and it appears to not come with a battery charge controller like Harbor Freight's older more expensive solar panel kit. It's kind of weird that it's hard to buy solar panels as an individual person, so good for them for making it available. This is the only place I know of where you can just walk in and walk out with a cartload of panels; perhaps there are others?
- mettamage 5y agoI wish they mentioned more what companies are at the forefront of this. I am also curious to what extent innovations in solar panel tech are patented or if they are more open source and therefore treated like a commodity product.
- t413 5y agoSunpower. Here's a list of panels sorted by efficiency: (just one I've been using while researching for a project) https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/?noidx=true&sort_by=efficiency https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/?noidx=true&sort_by=... I think they're the only on-the-market 22% efficient panel. This bloomberg article talking about 700W panels is inane, they just increased the panel size past the standard commercial 1mx2m.
- throwawayswede 5y agoLol, dirt cheap? Where? In Sweden, the average price of a solar cell package of 5 kW is approximately 90,000 kr (~ $10,500) including VAT. That's about 3 times the average monthly salary in Sweden
- martini333 5y agoWith an ROI of <10 years. That's cheap.
- throwawayswede 5y agoHow did you calculate that ROI
- koheripbal 5y agoThat doesn't take into account time-value-money nor inflation nor time & maintenance & cost-of-complexity. These ROI calculations are always way way too generous.
- CPUstring 5y agoYou can use payback time to back into expected returns that adjusts for the time value of money and you need to consider that you're getting expected (investable) savings as well. Indeed, anything that can pay itself back in less than 5.5 years should be on par with the market.
- iamgopal 5y agoAt my home last year I installed 5kw at 1500 USD. In India. In addition to that I get 100 MBPS unlimited Internet at 10 USD per month. Not to mention my income is about ~1000 USD per month.
- martini333 5y agoOkay. Is anyone surprised?