21 ms·

Challenges in the diagnosis of magnesium status

521 points by johndcook 5y ago

minitoar 5y ago
The title of the article is “Challenges in the Diagnosis of Magnesium Status”
- ratsmack 5y ago
  But it does cover more than that and the current title is pretty close.
  - gus_massa 5y ago
    The guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ask to use the original title unless it's linkbait or wrong.
    - rtkwe 5y ago
      I get it's there in the guidelines (notably not called rules) however when the title isn't informative I'd rather have the modified title personally.
    - sundarurfriend 5y ago
      But in practice, even dang(/team) themselves sometimes change the title away from the original, to be more indicative of the article content, even when it isn't exactly linkbait or wrong per se.
- dang 5y ago
  Changed now—thanks. Submitted title was "Vegetables have become far less nutritious".
hirundo 5y ago
I'd expect the same deficiencies to show up downstream in grain and soy fed cows, pigs and chickens. For meat eaters, that's an argument to spend more for grass fed beef, lamb, buffalo, and pastured chicken eggs. I don't know if such regenerative agriculture can scale up enough to feed everyone, but it can become a lot more affordable and accessible than it is now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- petree 5y ago
  It can't scale up if it still needs to be produced in the same quantities. It takes a lot of farmland, about 80% in fact, to produce feed for livestock (especially for cattle) even with calorie-dense feed like cereals. You'd have to cut down a lot of forest to make pastures.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    Permaculture techniques can often support significantly greater density than monoculture, but are often not conducive to machine harvest, so end up being much more labor intensive
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  In Australia and New Zealand practically all beef is grass fed. I don't think I've ever had corn-fed in my life. And yes, it is very expensive (more so in NZ than AU)
esquivalience 5y ago
From the source: "The high rate of magnesium deficiency now postulated [5,6,7,8] can be attributed in part to a steady decline in general magnesium content in cultivated fruits and vegetables, a reflection of the observed depletion of magnesium in soil over the past 100 years [11,12,13]. A report to Congress was already sounding the alarm as far back as the 1930s, pointing out the paucity of magnesium, and other minerals, in certain produce [14]." The easiest of those references to link to is https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1/article-p15.xml https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1... : "Three kinds of evidence point toward declines of some nutrients in fruits and vegetables available in the United States and the United Kingdom: 1) early studies of fertilization found inverse relationships between crop yield and mineral concentrations—the widely cited “dilution effect”; 2) three recent studies of historical food composition data found apparent median declines of 5% to 40% or more in some minerals in groups of vegetables and perhaps fruits; one study also evaluated vitamins and protein with similar results; and 3) recent side-by-side plantings of low- and high-yield cultivars of broccoli and grains found consistently negative correlations between yield and concentrations of minerals and protein, a newly recognized genetic dilution effect. "
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Can it be solved by simply adding more magnesium to the fertilizer?
  - DistressedDrone 5y ago
    I suspect it can be solved in many different ways, but when you sell food by the pound, it's much more advantageous to distribute your limited quantity of nutrients in as much produce as possible. This seems really, really hard to regulate.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      Frankly, it seems to me like it's rather relatively simple thing to regulate. We already mandate things like adding vitamins to milk or flour. Extending this to vegetables really doesn't seem like big problem: farmers would just have to buy magnesium-enriched fertilizer.
seaorg 5y ago
If you put a whole cow into a meat grinder, the resulting paste contains every single micro and macro nutrient required by the human body, in their most bioavailable forms, many of which are completely absent in vegetarian and vegan diets. For millions of years, humans ate ruminant animals who’s herds they followed around, and almost nothing else. People who eat nothing but ruminant meat and organs become slim even in advanced age, ripped without going to the gym, regain hair, lose their psoriasis, feel mentally sharper, and see their autoimmune problems go away. And couples who do it get pregnant immediately after failing for years. It’s all documented on meatrx success stories section. Two doctors have now ate nothing but meat, animal fat and organs for two years and posted their test results. CAC scores of zero despite high LDL. Their hearts are in perfect health. I’m not breaking guidelines so don’t flag me.
- draw_down 5y ago
  Nobody said anything about vegans, come on
- carbocation 5y ago
  Without commenting on the veracity of your claims (which I don't really believe, and because they aren't sourced, it would require a ton of effort), your writing style is very compelling.
  - seaorg 5y ago
    Doctor Paul Saladino has been very public about his test results, including CAC score of zero, and I consider that a source. Same with doctor Shawn Baker. And I made reference to Meatrx which is indeed a source. It contains hundreds of video testimonies that will provide any discerning viewer with enough evidence to motivate a proper interventional study. This topic is blacklisted in academia and there aren’t any good studies on it. And if you investigate the mechanistic underpinnings of all of this yourself, crack open a biochemistry book, you will see very clearly that something is going on. We need proper interventional studies.
  - mathgladiator 5y ago
    I can't comment on parent due to flag, I'm studying this for my wife and the relationship to autoimmune issues. It's not just ruminant, but ruminant meat eating appropriate food. Grass fed beef versus grain fed is fascinating. Furthermore, how we raise ruminants is important for the ecosystem. When I tried carnivore diet, I can attest that the benefits are real but so is the hungering addiction from processed foods. I'm currently detaching myself from sugar which is... hard. I can't wait for properly controlled studies on this subject. There is great anecdotal evidence https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/multiple-sclerosis-and-carnivore-diet/ https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/multipl... which warrants proper studies.
papito 5y ago
The must-read book The Dorito Effect covered this years ago. De-nutrification of food has been decades in the making.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  That's right. If you want magnesium you need to eat Cool Ranch Doritos … they have twice as much magnesium as the Nacho Cheese variety. Seriously though a handful of Doritos has as much magnesium as a raw carrot. Vegetables just aren't a concentrated source of metals. Nuts are more reliable.
MattGaiser 5y ago
A good article I read on a similar angle: https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511/ https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...
- mistaken_mouse 5y ago
  I was wondering when someone was going to bring up climate change. And this article is the only thing that’s brought it up in this thread so far, meanwhile everyone else seems to be talking about taking magnesium pills. This is just another sign that climate change is making this planet uninhabitable for us.
skymer 5y ago
The paper shows that it is essentially impossible for an adult male to get the recommended DI of magnesium (420 mg/day) by eating vegetables alone. As far as I can see, the paper does not resolve whether that target is too high, or whether it can be reached by eating meat or taking supplements.
- cageface 5y ago
  Seeds are a great source of magnesium. Pumpkin seeds in particular have a lot of it and are inexpensive and tasty.
  - skymer 5y ago
    The paper says "The highest food sources of magnesium are leafy greens (78 mg/serving), nuts (80 mg/serving), and whole grains (46 mg/serving)..." So five servings every day of nuts and/or leafy greens would do it, but that doesn't sound like anybody's typical diet.
    - duckmysick 5y ago
      The same paper also says "[...] foods containing phytates, polyphenols and oxalic acid, such as rice and nuts, all contribute to magnesium deficiency due to their ability to bind magnesium to produce insoluble precipitates, thus negatively impacting magnesium availability and absorption."
    - opportune 5y ago
      A typical serving of leafy greens is quite small, an adult can easily eat 2-4 servings at a time after they've been cooked.
MarkusWandel 5y ago
This is awfully technical, but in practical terms: Magnesium citrate is yummy. So should we all be taking it or is it useless as a substitute for the kind in vegetables?
mtalantikite 5y ago
Anecdotal, but I personally would get ocular migraines pretty frequently for years. They started when I was a teenager, but I was always told by doctors that it was nothing to worry about. A few years ago I read about magnesium deficiency and migraines, figured it was worth a shot to try supplementing it, and now I rarely get those ocular migraines. The only time I get them now is when I run out of magnesium supplements, forget to buy more, and end up going a few weeks without them. I really can’t say that it’s the magnesium, but as long as I’m not getting the ocular migraines anymore I’ll continue to supplement it. A bit of a warning though, it can act as a laxative for some people and cause digestive issues. Liquid based forms are gentler. Mineral water tends to have high magnesium content as well (e.g. Gerolsteiner brand).
softwaredoug 5y ago
I had sleep issues for years, including periodic limb movements[1]. My sleep doctor said to try 500mg plus of magnesium supplements. That was probably one of the most significant steps to (mostly) resolve the issue. 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disor... PS full TMI story here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_cpps_nocturia_and_insomnia_journey_and_what/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_c...
version_five 5y ago
I understand this seems mostly to be about soil depletion. I'm curious more generally if vegetables are also less nutritious because they are selectively bread for high water content and size. For example, its appeared to me for years that you vegetables you get on a Subway sandwich must have almost no nutritional content. They are all way paler than you'd normally see, and super watery. Thinking about it, I suppose the vegetables may get that way from growing in poor soil, and Subway et al just buy those ones because they're cheaper
- greggman3 5y ago
  interestingly when I worked at Jack-in-the-box in the early 80s their produce seemed much better than what I saw at the supermarket.
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  Home grown tomatoes are typically much better tasting/more flavorful than the store bought ones, so I think there is probably something to this.
  - peer2pay 5y ago
    Although this can mostly be attributed to ripeness. Ripe tomatoes degrade extremely quickly so store bought ones are almost exclusive picked unripe and then artificially ripened at locations closer to where they are intended to be sold. This is also why canned tomatoes are generally considered superior for making tomato soups and sauces. Tomatoes harvested with the intention to be conserved are picked much riper since they can be processed and packaged almost immediately after.
    - croo 5y ago
      No. I harvest tomatoes for 4 years now, about 30-50 plants per year. The taste of a half-green-left-on-shelf-because-i-dont-wanna-throw-it-out fruit is better than anything you can get in a shop. You can tell just by the smell, no need to taste it. Sun and soil brings more to the table than led lamps and chemical fertilizers.
viburnum 5y ago
I know geeks love Norman Borlaug, but there was a catch: the new high-yield varieties are dependent on fertilizers made from fossil fuels. These plants grow fast and have more carbs and less of everything else. There needs to be a second Green Revolution, this time sustainable.
- epistasis 5y ago
  It's not a necessity that nitrogen fertilizer comes from fossil fuels. Some of the first massive deployments of hydrogen electrolyzers are fir making ammonia fertilizer, replacing natural gas with solar-driven processes. Also, I don't think that Borlaug is super closely associated with the fertilizer, as much as with breeeding hardier strains or shorter stalks, to prevent loss of wheat crops or rice crops, for example. For that matter, manure could ne used as fertilizer for the Green Revolution, there's no dependency on the Haber process, that was an entirely different revolution both in time and geography.
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  There is a reason nerds love Normal Borlaug, and that is he probably saved tons of people. Sure, maybe the food is less nutritious (a nebulous term, anyway) but we do have food.
  - lainga 5y ago
    Put another way, one might say he borrowed from the future to save the present.
    - rini17 5y ago
      I wouldn't put all the blame on him. Wouldn't be first or last time the narrowly efficiency-minded nerds and businessmen took a good idea and optimized it into a monster.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        The supposed alternative, changing distribution of food rather than production of food, was a political decision that was fraught with problems. Any nation without food security soon finds that it can lose all of its other security too. So for a lot of the criticism of the Green Revolution, which comes from a place of wanting a different political structure, but not yet being sure what that structure is, nerds like me see the "alternative" as not a real one. Politics could have saved India, but it did not, it was basic biotech and giving Indian farmers more productivity. If this is a "monster" I'd really like to see a less monstrous alternative proposed, with all the details specified. Because any alternative path sounds too monstrous to be considered by a humane being.
Mirioron 5y ago
Should vitamin and mineral levels be checked during yearly checkups as standard practice? It seems like it would give us a lot of useful data and help people live healthier lives.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Vitamin D deficiency is fairly common, it would make sense to check for it.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I know Weston A. Price is a bit of a controversial topic, but his work does show the demineralization of the western world quite effectively. I think supplementation alone is simply a patch on the larger issue, which is the degradation of our land and farming practices.
jfk13 5y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771
scandox 5y ago
And less tasty. One of my in-laws started an organic garden solely to supply a local hotel down the country and she gave us a big box of vegetables when we were leaving after a visit. It was very revealing. Everything she gave us had distinct and powerful tastes that were blatantly lacking from their supermarket equivalents (including the ones that say Organic on the label). The garlic blew my mind: I used the usual number of cloves in a recipe and ... well ... we were reeking.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Lots of foods selected for shelf life. Used to be mostly winter crops that needed that proviso. To wit: one of the two garlics I grow has a 4 month longer shelf life than the other. The one has to be planted in the fall or you risk losing most of your seed cloves by late spring. The other, I just planted a second crop, from garlic harvested last fall. They were not in awesome shape, but about 80% went in the ground.
cultofmetatron 5y ago
one big potential problem with simply adding magnesium to fertilizers is that its is extremely hydrophilic and will lock to water and become impenetrable. My suspicion is that one of the larger issues that aren't even discussed is the role of fungi in the soil. Usually there is a symbiotic relationship between plants and fungi whereby the fungi breaks down minerals in the soil and hands off these precious ions to the plant in exchange for sugars. By giving readily digestible nutrients to the plants via artificial fertilizers, we rob the fungi of its role. The plants stop working with the fungi and they soon die off. This in turn robs us of nutrients the plant would have attained as a result of the symbiotic relationship. Magnesium being among them.
- pomian 5y ago
  Cool that you brought up fungi. It seems to be a very poorly understood field of study. I think it was an accepted part of the ecosystem for ancient farm technologies, however our modern world of compartmentalizing, nutrients, minerals, pests, etc is missing many of the inter locked natural systems. There have been interesting studies in the last 15-20 years revealing more and more about the micro life in soil. The interplay of bacteria, fungus, nutrients, biology and chemistry, can be quite fragile and using mono crops, selected fertilizers, selected pesticides can screw up that ecosystem. Think about old farmers spreading cow shit everywhere in the garden, composting with other animal manure, which all came from animals fed a wide range of food stuffs.
the_lonely_road 5y ago
Matter cannot be created, just reformed. There were 100,000 humans at one point and now there are 7 billion. All that matter came from somewhere. To be fair, we have killed a lot of animals but also created a lot more in the form of farm animals. It seems reasonable to me that this is unlikely to be sustainable even if we found a way to send humans off planet. Maybe that missing magnesium gets pulled out of the soil into crops, then into our bellies, and then into a wooden box that sits as far away from our arable land as we can get it. I of course have no scientific background or idea what I’m taking about, just a fun pop science theory that came to mind when reading this.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Total living biomass has 550 billion tons of carbon. Of that, 60 million are in human bodies. Most of it's plants, but plants very much need magnesium and other nutrients too.
Waterluvian 5y ago
I’m not arguing against these findings but the whole subject of nutrition leaves me frustrated at times. Ever tried to have 100% daily recommended intake of every nutrient? I suspect almost nobody achieves that. And yet, despite this, and magnesium issues among likely many other issues, our species has never lived longer, grown taller, survived infancy, etc. more than we have now. That being said, as we understand and overcome specific issues, I imagine we can become even healthier.
- canadianfella 5y ago
  I don’t understand what your point is.
- _tom_ 5y ago
  That was 20 years ago. Life spans are falling, as is height.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Not everywhere is USA. In most developed countries, lifespans were going up until start of Covid, even though our vegetables are watery too. If I had to guess, I would say that life expectancy in USA would start climbing again if all the obese people managed to shave, say, 5 points off their BMI. Morbid and supermorbid obesity is horribly widespread there. Of course, it is more likely that the rest of the world catches up than that the US slims down.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    In the United States? Average height in Central America quite a bit lower than the US, which is where most migrants to the US come from.
- opportune 5y ago
  Yes, I've done it [0]. It's not too hard, surprisingly affordable and not bad-tasting, but you are limited in what you can eat, and it takes some research/optimization that I think is too much for 90% of people. First you need to learn how to get complete nutritional info. A lot of packaged food does not have a full nutritional profile on its packaging, and will omit many vitamins and minerals that could even be abundant in that particular food. To work around this you should use software like Cronometer [1] that allows you to look up nutritional info against various databases. In my experience the most comprehensive data source is the NCCDB, which has all important vitamins and minerals plus amino acid profiles. You can then estimate full nutritional info for most whole foods you buy in a store by converting the store-bought brand's nutritional info to the NCCDB info. For example if you buy oatmeal that says it has 150kcal per 0.5 cup, and the NCCDB info says 100kcal per X grams, you track your store-bought oatmeal as 1.5X grams per 0.5cup you eat. Note this only works for whole/single-ingredient foods, for processed foods with multiple ingredients the ratios of ingredients will vary too much from product to product for the NCCDB to be useful. You should also get a food scale so that you can properly measure food that has its nutritional info based on mass rather than by volume. They're pretty cheap, and you can do before/after measurements to make it less tedious to measure small things. Now that you can get full nutritional info for each whole food, the rest is an optimization problem across macros, micros, amino acids (important if you get a lot of protein from plant-bases sources), price/availability, and your personal preferences. Here is an example of a set of foods I eat almost every day which gives you a very strong macro/micro base: 80g (1 cup) rolled oats, 1 cup unsweetened soy milk, 1 tbsp chia seeds, 1 container Oikos Triple Zero yogurt, 0.5 oz pumpkin seeds, 0.5 oz sunflower seeds, 2 mandarin oranges. Try entering that to Cronometer, you'll see it's about 800kcal and makes good progress in a lot of vitamins and minerals - relevant to the article, it already has 84% of the RDA of magnesium. You can easily max all other micros by eating a dinner consisting of fish, rice and beans, 1 carrot, and some broccoli - and still have room left over for additional macros (which will of course themselves contain extra micros) if you exercise. Of course, this is much more cognitive work than the majority of people want to put in, and because it only works when you buy most of your food in the form of single-ingredients that you then prepare yourself, it's not compatible with a lifestyle of eating lots of prepared foods or dining out. However once you invest the up front time in learning how to do all this, it's not very hard to do, especially if you eat a consistent diet or combine things into set meals you can mix and match [2]. [0] The major exception is I usually don't hit 100% of the RDA for dietary Vitamin D. Dietary vitamin D in non-supplemental form (as found in milk and milk substitutes) is only present in very few foods - oily fish and sun-exposed mushrooms. I do eat these somewhat regularly but not enough to hit 100%. But I think as long as you get adequate sun exposure it's not a big deal. [1] cronometer.com [2] For example, in the example set of foods I provided, the rolled oats + soy milk + chia seeds are eaten together in the form of overnight oats almost every morning.
qwerty456127 5y ago
I never believed in getting nutrients (besides the calories) from the actual food. Supplementation is necessary.
newsclues 5y ago
Funny, that there is a big push to have plant based meat replacements and promotions of vegetarian or vegan diets in the media.
- canadianfella 5y ago
  Why?
- jbotz 5y ago
  It stands to reason that meat is probably also becoming less nutritious, since the animals are being raised on those same less-nutritious plants. Especially with respect to micro-nutrients and trace minerals... being short on these causes subtle problems which get worse as you age, but the meat animals don't get very old anyway, so these deficiencies stay hidden.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    Don’t meat animals concentrate nutrients and toxins?
ajharrison 5y ago
What they’ve done to your meat and dairy is far far worse. Go vegan, eat your fruits and veggies, and supplement with a multivitamin.
caymanjim 5y ago
I wonder what the source of the nutrition information on FDA labels is. They're not assessing every batch of produce. Is the information we're told about the vitamins and minerals in our broccoli based on crops from last year? A decade ago? A century ago? Is it possible we think we're eating twice as many nutrients as we actually are?
- ainiriand 5y ago
  This is a very important question, in my opinion. I am going to check how the amounts are calculated.
  - wkavey 5y ago
    Please report back!!
    - ainiriand 5y ago
      Terrible availability of information regarding this. For some countries in Europe there is this regulation: https://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labelling-and-nutrition_en https://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labelling-and-nutrition_en but it does not say how or where this information is taken from.
- opportune 5y ago
  See https://thecounter.org/nutrition-labels-meet-recipal/ https://thecounter.org/nutrition-labels-meet-recipal/ and https://consolidatedlabel.com/label-articles/how-to-get-a-nutrition-facts-label-for-food-products/ https://consolidatedlabel.com/label-articles/how-to-get-a-nu.... The TLDR is not every food needs to be lab tested as long as they can take their ingredients and compare them against national databases (e.g. NCCDB) to estimate nutritional info. And yes, some of the data in those databases is old and perhaps overly general - it's totally reasonable to suspect that vegetables grown in one area, as part of a specific breeding line, in a certain manner, have totally different nutritional info compared to the same generic vegetable grown elsewhere in a different manner. However keep in mind a lot of food does not list all micronutrients as part of their labelling. This actually kinda drives me nuts and I have no idea why e.g. frozen vegetables don't list things like Vitamin K, magnesium, and zinc when they're often actually good sources of many nutrients.
jacobkg 5y ago
One thing I have noticed over the years is that I am addicted to the taste of Costco’s Kirkland signature bottled water (similar to Dasani but nothing like bottled “spring water”) One hypothesis I have is that my body is craving magnesium, which is one of the “minerals added for taste”.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  I had a similar craving for Magnesia, a Czech mineral water high in magnesium. Once I started supplementing magnesium by other means, I can go without Magnesia for weeks.
the_lonely_road 5y ago
Meta comment on this thread so forgive me. There are only 40 comments and 3 of them are top level comments stating that taking magnesium supplements cured their health issue. One is anxiety, one is sleep issues, and one is migraines. These are some of the same claims I hear from the marijuana enthusiasts on Reddit frequently. I don’t have any points to make about the observation, just noticed it and felt compelled to share.
- pvg 5y ago
  Oh, an observation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOs7YjSLEMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOs7YjSLEMk
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Medicine solves some medical problems, if you're taking the right medicine. (I think this is all a layperson can take away from the observation.)
- sabco 5y ago
  For anyone taking magnesium supplements that have found it helpful, did you ever get a blood test to look at your magnesium levels and did they say you were deficient based on the reference ranges?
  - patall 5y ago
    Unfortunately, that is what lots of people do not do. Noticed it recently with Vitamin D where everyone was like: "There is much deficiency, there are no down sites, let's all take it." And I was like: "Sure, there are probably benefits, but for people with actual deficiency. There is a test for that, why don't you do that?" But at that point, it was too late because you can't test for a deficiency once you supplement it.
    - spfzero 5y ago
      As much as 90% of the US population may be deficient in vitamin D, so you have a good chance of it. That said, I agree that testing is good, either before or after supplementation. https://www.grassrootshealth.net/document/grassrootshealth-participants-compare-general-u-s-population/ https://www.grassrootshealth.net/document/grassrootshealth-p...
lamontcg 5y ago
> Magnesium deficiency can be attributed to common dietary practices, medications, and farming techniques, along with estimates that the mineral content of vegetables has declined by as much as 80–90% in the last 100 years. This is why, when people defend GMOs with the argument that we've been genetically modifying plants and animals for hundreds of years by selective breeding, that I don't think that argument leads to the conclusions they're looking for which is that its all perfectly harmless.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  But it does help focus the discussion on whether the changes are harmful, away from “it's a change, and change is bad”.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Change in complex system is risky. Some people are risk averse.
    - kadoban 5y ago
      Is lack of change in complex systems safe? I'd guess it's more that complex systems are inherently risky.
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        In such arguments, it is assumed that the current sate of things is already acceptable. That's exactly why people don't want to change them.
        kadoban 5y ago
        The current state of things isn't very stable though, especially when there's already a bunch of other parts of it we're intentionally or unintentionally modifying.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
Xcelerate 5y ago
When we moved to the Bay Area, I started going to the farmers markets and was blown away by the quality of the vegetables. Peas grown at Iacopi Farms in Half Moon Bay were crisp and sweet. Zuckerman's Farm grew a special kind of squash bred specifically for flavor (honeynut squash). Fresh plums pulled off of trees in San Francisco were just bursting with juice. Mashed potatoes made from La Ratte potatoes. And Delta asparagus — wow. Now that we've left the Bay Area, I find that I'm even more disappointed by grocery store vegetables than I used to be. The vegetables are dry, wilted, flavorless — repugnant even. No wonder children don't want to eat them. Seriously considering setting up a miniature green house and growing my own stuff at this point.
- ferdowsi 5y ago
  You were previously buying family-farm vegetables and switched to industrialized, grocery store produce. You can definitely walk into a Safeway in SF and get garbage produce. Hopefully your local ecosystem supports some native farming that you can make use of.
- nine_k 5y ago
  Check if a farmer market is held near where you live. It may be seasonal, but it's still better than dull vegs around the year.
  - VLM 5y ago
    Around here its the same brands and same cardboard boxes at the farmers market, the upscale supermarket, and the organic supermarket, although they mark the price up at the farmers market because of the extra labor and substantial fees the market charges, also its sort of a hipster tax. In addition to paying to park at the farmers market.
- yumraj 5y ago
  Which farmers market? Not all farmers markets here are equal, so curious.
- mycall 5y ago
  Vertical farming is replacing green houses these days.
CraigJPerry 5y ago
The BBC more or less episode with James Wong is making me wonder if this is true (shorter summary of what James said on the podcast: https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276801 https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276... ) Anyway, from the paper here: >> with estimates that vegetables have dropped magnesium levels by 80–90% in the U.S. (Figure 2) and the UK [11,12,13,32,33] Reference 11 doesn’t support this claim. Ref 12 doesn’t directly mention Mg but does say some nutrients have dropped between 5-40% which is NOT 80-90% Ref 13 does mention mg specifically on page 3 but states under 20%. … I think i’m being fleeced by this paper.
- jcoq 5y ago
  Looked into this myself and you're absolutely correct. Reference 11 doesn't even come close.
WalterBright 5y ago
Magnesium and other minerals don't disappear when consumed, it comes out again with sewage. Hence, soil depletion could be addressed by turning sewage into fertilizer.
todsacerdoti 5y ago
If you are interested in this topic and want to know more, I highly recommend the book The Dorito Effect - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_8T2KJGDGBN55WHR9430G https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm...
walrus01 5y ago
If you ever travel in a developing nation like Nepal and eat the vegetables in a rural region there, and then return to the US/Canada, the difference is immediately noticeable.
- alliao 5y ago
  yes reading your comments took me back to Peru and their corn and potato. Even chicken, I ate simplest food but had enjoyed them so much.
nate_meurer 5y ago
My youngest daughter struggled mightily with constipation for the first six years of her life. Hours on the toilet crying, day after day. At some point when she was six or maybe seven, I read a blurb somewhere about the importance of magnesium for smooth muscle operation. That day I added a teaspoon of epsom salt to some juice and gave it to her. The next day her constipation disappeared. We all now take cheap 400 mg Mg supplement daily, and in the five years since she hasn't been constipated even once. Closest thing to a "miracle cure" I've ever encountered. We're all vegetarians and do pretty well on fiber, but increasing my daughter's insoluble fiber intake when she was little was difficult, and resulted only in more bloating. But a little magnesium, whatever the mechanism, fixed her right up.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  > We're all vegetarians and do pretty well on fiber Thank you for not making your kids be vegan. It's extremely hard to get kids proper nutrients on a vegan diet. Related: Milk has good magnesium content, more so if grass-fed. If you can get raw milk from a local small farm, it's worth it.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    I've imposed some dietary restrictions on my kids, but they're mostly glycemic in nature. - No sugary drinks; absolutely no soda pop, ever, and very little fruit juice, which is really no better than pop. - No sugary breakfasts. Breakfast cereal is fucking poison, especially the sweetened varieties. - No kids-menu food. When we eat out, they've always ordered off the adult menu. No pizza, chicken nuggets, mac-n-cheese, french fries, PB&J, grilled cheese on white bread, etc. Everywhere I look I see people who have let their kids turn into kids-menu kids-- kids who tolerate only pizza, deep fried food, breakfast cereal, etc. And everywhere I look now, I see fat kids and teens with the beginnings of diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease. Any pediatrician will gladly talk about the growing crisis of metabolic syndrome in kids. My kids went vegetarian completely of their own accord, likely copying me, but they've stuck with it. The main thing is that they've always eaten what we eat. It took a little training, but their tastes developed rapidly (as all kids' do) and from a young age they could enjoy a full range of healthy adult food with few very few aversions. For example, my youngest still doesn't love blue cheese, but she can tolerate it. My older teen eats blue cheese from a bowl like ice cream.
mahgnous 5y ago
And people think artificial meat is gonna be good for them, LOL.
bamboozled 5y ago
I know we’re all talking about the supplements we take, which fixes the issues for the individual, but what of the actual problem ? I’m starting to feel like the USA is doomed in the long run because there’s too many corrupt influences in politics and science. We’re constantly told x is good for us. Until we all find out it really wasn’t and now we're in trouble.
PKop 5y ago
Another argument against the senseless, detrimental addition of Fluoride in water supply: "In addition, fluoride, found in 74% of the American population’s drinking water, with ~50% of drinking water having a concentration of 0.7 mg/L, prevents magnesium absorption through binding and production of insoluble complexes."
interlocutor 5y ago
Magnesium solved two problems for me: stiff muscles and insomnia. Scientific information about how magnesium works is hard to come by. Here's what I have been able to gather from various sources: The cells in your body need calcium to go into "on state". To go into "off state" magnesium has to go in and displace calcium. When your body is low on magnesium your muscles can't go into "off state" and your muscles become stiff. To relax you need an Epsom salt bath (it contains magnesium) or just take magnesium supplements. When your brain cells can't go to "off state" you can't sleep. You need magnesium to help your brain cells go into off state. However the "blood brain barrier" (look it up) prevents magnesium from easily entering the brain. Magnesium l-threonate (that's a compound of magnesium, not a brand name) can pass through this barrier and help you sleep. I have had sleep issues for many years. I saw many doctors including sleep specialists but all they wanted to do is put me on prescription meds. But these meds are addictive and you have to take it for the rest of your life. I didn't want that. These are "quick fixes". As a software developer I was interested in finding the underlying problem and fix that, as opposed to the quick fixes that the medical community was offering me. A breakthrough came when I saw a naturopathic doctor for my stiff muscles and she advised me to take Epsom salt baths. That seemed to help. I investigated more and found out that the ingredient in Epsom salt that helped me is magnesium. Then I found out that you can actually get magnesium pills and tried that. That worked remarkably well. But the big surprise was that I slept better the night I tried the magnesium pill. Since then I have been researching how it is that magnesium helped me sleep. Stress depletes magnesium in your body. If you are a software developer you are stressing your brain all day when you do your job and you are depleting magnesium. Low magnesium levels causes muscle issues as well as sleep issues. Magnesium supplements solve the problem. It is very unfortunate that medical doctors don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. When I see doctors I mention that I am taking magnesium for muscle and sleep issues and they seem surprised, but no doctor has yet told me that I am wrong. Note that magnesium is a natural mineral, not a drug, essential for your body, and found in many foods. Excess amounts of magnesium can cause a laxative effect, but this is very temporary.
- kossTKR 5y ago
  How much magnesium are we talking about here? I actually have magnesium in my supplement drawer : "Magnesium Carbonate from natural sources" - it says take 2 grams, max 4 grams and let it "sit in cold water for 10 minutes, or warmer water for 10 seconds" before drinking. Is that the range you are taking and is the l-threonate form much better, ie. is carbonate useless? Interested in trying this out later this night..
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joecool1029 5y ago
I wonder how nutritious edible weeds are? I assume a lot of the loss of nutrients comes from rigorously farming the same monoculture land for things like shitty iceberg lettuce. Maybe a little unfair to single that out when corn and tomatoes are especially greedy plants. As I watch the edges of the woods get overtaken with garlic mustard and tearthumb, I'm thinking why not eat them? I realize this isn't going to work for those in a city but I do wonder about the nutrition of things growing wild on land that isn't typically farmed.
aaron695 5y ago
Even if this was true, which it is not, if you have nutrient deficiencies you need supplements not better food. In present day Western society if you don't get everything you need, which will be from disease, alcoholism, age, lack of sun or specific diets like Vegan, food cannot accurately help.
aurizon 5y ago
Plants in the wild are in a continuous battle against insects, molds and fungi and herbivores. They excrete assorted defensive chemical and build others into their tissues. A 'pet' plant is protected against a large number of these attacks = it makes less of them. A number of these affect taste and flavor as the herbivore defences are turned off. Caterpillars are herbivore BTW. So these pet plants become more pure pulp. These are my speculations. but I think they are worth studying. Loss of Magnesium is a known decline caused by over use of magnesium by the plants grown and there has not been selective magnesium fertilisation. They should study some of the common rocks to see which ones are suitable to be ground up and added to the soil.
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kaitai 5y ago
I see a lot of discussion of nutrient content of farmed vegetables here. A cheap and easy alternative to farmed greens lies in foraging wild weeds. Reports from scientists at UC Berkeley have found that toxins like heavy metals, PCBs, etc don't bioaccumulate in these wild greens, so that's great. They rival kale and spinach in their nutritive value. And they're free! Learn to reliably identify the weeds around you and you'll find tons of joy in weeding your backyard or foraging at a park and getting a dinner salad (or bathua ka saag, or quelites, or horta, or minestrella soup) out of it. And it's incredibly unlikely someone's going to be pissed at you for picking their dandelions/purslane/cat's ear/goosefoot/plantain. (Do avoid areas that have had pesticide applied.) https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-city-areas-more-nutritious-than-store-bought-produce/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-cit... https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1
oooooooooo88 5y ago
Yhh
oooooooooo88 5y ago
Ty
CyanLite4 5y ago
Jigsaw SRT Magnesium twice a day has solved my anxiety, muscle cramps, and heart palpitations. It’s one of the only “slow release” formulas out there. Magnesium normally can cause a laxative effect.
amai 5y ago
Coincidence? "Vitamin D is currently the only Essential Vitamin or Mineral which appears to have deficiency rates at a similar level to Magnesium" https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient... Dai (2018): Magnesium status and supplementation influence vitamin D status and metabolism: results from a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/ "Our findings suggest that optimal magnesium status may be important for optimizing 25(OH)D status. " So it might well be that general deficiency in Vitamin D is caused by the deficiency in magnesium status. This would also be an explanation why we see Vitamin D deficiency in sunny Africa: https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-not-common-in-africa-think-again-140080 https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-no...

521 points by johndcook 5y ago

minitoar 5y ago

The title of the article is “Challenges in the Diagnosis of Magnesium Status”

ratsmack 5y ago
But it does cover more than that and the current title is pretty close.
- gus_massa 5y ago
  The guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ask to use the original title unless it's linkbait or wrong.
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    I get it's there in the guidelines (notably not called rules) however when the title isn't informative I'd rather have the modified title personally.
  - sundarurfriend 5y ago
    But in practice, even dang(/team) themselves sometimes change the title away from the original, to be more indicative of the article content, even when it isn't exactly linkbait or wrong per se.
dang 5y ago
Changed now—thanks. Submitted title was "Vegetables have become far less nutritious".

hirundo 5y ago

I'd expect the same deficiencies to show up downstream in grain and soy fed cows, pigs and chickens. For meat eaters, that's an argument to spend more for grass fed beef, lamb, buffalo, and pastured chicken eggs. I don't know if such regenerative agriculture can scale up enough to feed everyone, but it can become a lot more affordable and accessible than it is now.

deleted 5y ago
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petree 5y ago
It can't scale up if it still needs to be produced in the same quantities. It takes a lot of farmland, about 80% in fact, to produce feed for livestock (especially for cattle) even with calorie-dense feed like cereals. You'd have to cut down a lot of forest to make pastures.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Permaculture techniques can often support significantly greater density than monoculture, but are often not conducive to machine harvest, so end up being much more labor intensive
LAC-Tech 5y ago
In Australia and New Zealand practically all beef is grass fed. I don't think I've ever had corn-fed in my life. And yes, it is very expensive (more so in NZ than AU)

esquivalience 5y ago

From the source: "The high rate of magnesium deficiency now postulated [5,6,7,8] can be attributed in part to a steady decline in general magnesium content in cultivated fruits and vegetables, a reflection of the observed depletion of magnesium in soil over the past 100 years [11,12,13]. A report to Congress was already sounding the alarm as far back as the 1930s, pointing out the paucity of magnesium, and other minerals, in certain produce [14]." The easiest of those references to link to is https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1/article-p15.xml https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1... : "Three kinds of evidence point toward declines of some nutrients in fruits and vegetables available in the United States and the United Kingdom: 1) early studies of fertilization found inverse relationships between crop yield and mineral concentrations—the widely cited “dilution effect”; 2) three recent studies of historical food composition data found apparent median declines of 5% to 40% or more in some minerals in groups of vegetables and perhaps fruits; one study also evaluated vitamins and protein with similar results; and 3) recent side-by-side plantings of low- and high-yield cultivars of broccoli and grains found consistently negative correlations between yield and concentrations of minerals and protein, a newly recognized genetic dilution effect. "

xyzzyz 5y ago
Can it be solved by simply adding more magnesium to the fertilizer?
- DistressedDrone 5y ago
  I suspect it can be solved in many different ways, but when you sell food by the pound, it's much more advantageous to distribute your limited quantity of nutrients in as much produce as possible. This seems really, really hard to regulate.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    Frankly, it seems to me like it's rather relatively simple thing to regulate. We already mandate things like adding vitamins to milk or flour. Extending this to vegetables really doesn't seem like big problem: farmers would just have to buy magnesium-enriched fertilizer.

seaorg 5y ago

If you put a whole cow into a meat grinder, the resulting paste contains every single micro and macro nutrient required by the human body, in their most bioavailable forms, many of which are completely absent in vegetarian and vegan diets. For millions of years, humans ate ruminant animals who’s herds they followed around, and almost nothing else. People who eat nothing but ruminant meat and organs become slim even in advanced age, ripped without going to the gym, regain hair, lose their psoriasis, feel mentally sharper, and see their autoimmune problems go away. And couples who do it get pregnant immediately after failing for years. It’s all documented on meatrx success stories section. Two doctors have now ate nothing but meat, animal fat and organs for two years and posted their test results. CAC scores of zero despite high LDL. Their hearts are in perfect health. I’m not breaking guidelines so don’t flag me.

draw_down 5y ago
Nobody said anything about vegans, come on
carbocation 5y ago
Without commenting on the veracity of your claims (which I don't really believe, and because they aren't sourced, it would require a ton of effort), your writing style is very compelling.
- seaorg 5y ago
  Doctor Paul Saladino has been very public about his test results, including CAC score of zero, and I consider that a source. Same with doctor Shawn Baker. And I made reference to Meatrx which is indeed a source. It contains hundreds of video testimonies that will provide any discerning viewer with enough evidence to motivate a proper interventional study. This topic is blacklisted in academia and there aren’t any good studies on it. And if you investigate the mechanistic underpinnings of all of this yourself, crack open a biochemistry book, you will see very clearly that something is going on. We need proper interventional studies.
- mathgladiator 5y ago
  I can't comment on parent due to flag, I'm studying this for my wife and the relationship to autoimmune issues. It's not just ruminant, but ruminant meat eating appropriate food. Grass fed beef versus grain fed is fascinating. Furthermore, how we raise ruminants is important for the ecosystem. When I tried carnivore diet, I can attest that the benefits are real but so is the hungering addiction from processed foods. I'm currently detaching myself from sugar which is... hard. I can't wait for properly controlled studies on this subject. There is great anecdotal evidence https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/multiple-sclerosis-and-carnivore-diet/ https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/multipl... which warrants proper studies.

papito 5y ago

The must-read book The Dorito Effect covered this years ago. De-nutrification of food has been decades in the making.

jeffbee 5y ago
That's right. If you want magnesium you need to eat Cool Ranch Doritos … they have twice as much magnesium as the Nacho Cheese variety. Seriously though a handful of Doritos has as much magnesium as a raw carrot. Vegetables just aren't a concentrated source of metals. Nuts are more reliable.

MattGaiser 5y ago

A good article I read on a similar angle: https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511/ https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...

mistaken_mouse 5y ago
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up climate change. And this article is the only thing that’s brought it up in this thread so far, meanwhile everyone else seems to be talking about taking magnesium pills. This is just another sign that climate change is making this planet uninhabitable for us.

skymer 5y ago

The paper shows that it is essentially impossible for an adult male to get the recommended DI of magnesium (420 mg/day) by eating vegetables alone. As far as I can see, the paper does not resolve whether that target is too high, or whether it can be reached by eating meat or taking supplements.

cageface 5y ago
Seeds are a great source of magnesium. Pumpkin seeds in particular have a lot of it and are inexpensive and tasty.
- skymer 5y ago
  The paper says "The highest food sources of magnesium are leafy greens (78 mg/serving), nuts (80 mg/serving), and whole grains (46 mg/serving)..." So five servings every day of nuts and/or leafy greens would do it, but that doesn't sound like anybody's typical diet.
  - duckmysick 5y ago
    The same paper also says "[...] foods containing phytates, polyphenols and oxalic acid, such as rice and nuts, all contribute to magnesium deficiency due to their ability to bind magnesium to produce insoluble precipitates, thus negatively impacting magnesium availability and absorption."
  - opportune 5y ago
    A typical serving of leafy greens is quite small, an adult can easily eat 2-4 servings at a time after they've been cooked.

MarkusWandel 5y ago

This is awfully technical, but in practical terms: Magnesium citrate is yummy. So should we all be taking it or is it useless as a substitute for the kind in vegetables?

mtalantikite 5y ago

Anecdotal, but I personally would get ocular migraines pretty frequently for years. They started when I was a teenager, but I was always told by doctors that it was nothing to worry about. A few years ago I read about magnesium deficiency and migraines, figured it was worth a shot to try supplementing it, and now I rarely get those ocular migraines. The only time I get them now is when I run out of magnesium supplements, forget to buy more, and end up going a few weeks without them. I really can’t say that it’s the magnesium, but as long as I’m not getting the ocular migraines anymore I’ll continue to supplement it. A bit of a warning though, it can act as a laxative for some people and cause digestive issues. Liquid based forms are gentler. Mineral water tends to have high magnesium content as well (e.g. Gerolsteiner brand).

softwaredoug 5y ago

I had sleep issues for years, including periodic limb movements[1]. My sleep doctor said to try 500mg plus of magnesium supplements. That was probably one of the most significant steps to (mostly) resolve the issue. 1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disor... PS full TMI story here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_cpps_nocturia_and_insomnia_journey_and_what/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_c...

version_five 5y ago

I understand this seems mostly to be about soil depletion. I'm curious more generally if vegetables are also less nutritious because they are selectively bread for high water content and size. For example, its appeared to me for years that you vegetables you get on a Subway sandwich must have almost no nutritional content. They are all way paler than you'd normally see, and super watery. Thinking about it, I suppose the vegetables may get that way from growing in poor soil, and Subway et al just buy those ones because they're cheaper

greggman3 5y ago
interestingly when I worked at Jack-in-the-box in the early 80s their produce seemed much better than what I saw at the supermarket.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
Home grown tomatoes are typically much better tasting/more flavorful than the store bought ones, so I think there is probably something to this.
- peer2pay 5y ago
  Although this can mostly be attributed to ripeness. Ripe tomatoes degrade extremely quickly so store bought ones are almost exclusive picked unripe and then artificially ripened at locations closer to where they are intended to be sold. This is also why canned tomatoes are generally considered superior for making tomato soups and sauces. Tomatoes harvested with the intention to be conserved are picked much riper since they can be processed and packaged almost immediately after.
  - croo 5y ago
    No. I harvest tomatoes for 4 years now, about 30-50 plants per year. The taste of a half-green-left-on-shelf-because-i-dont-wanna-throw-it-out fruit is better than anything you can get in a shop. You can tell just by the smell, no need to taste it. Sun and soil brings more to the table than led lamps and chemical fertilizers.

viburnum 5y ago

I know geeks love Norman Borlaug, but there was a catch: the new high-yield varieties are dependent on fertilizers made from fossil fuels. These plants grow fast and have more carbs and less of everything else. There needs to be a second Green Revolution, this time sustainable.

epistasis 5y ago
It's not a necessity that nitrogen fertilizer comes from fossil fuels. Some of the first massive deployments of hydrogen electrolyzers are fir making ammonia fertilizer, replacing natural gas with solar-driven processes. Also, I don't think that Borlaug is super closely associated with the fertilizer, as much as with breeeding hardier strains or shorter stalks, to prevent loss of wheat crops or rice crops, for example. For that matter, manure could ne used as fertilizer for the Green Revolution, there's no dependency on the Haber process, that was an entirely different revolution both in time and geography.
RealityVoid 5y ago
There is a reason nerds love Normal Borlaug, and that is he probably saved tons of people. Sure, maybe the food is less nutritious (a nebulous term, anyway) but we do have food.
- lainga 5y ago
  Put another way, one might say he borrowed from the future to save the present.
  - rini17 5y ago
    I wouldn't put all the blame on him. Wouldn't be first or last time the narrowly efficiency-minded nerds and businessmen took a good idea and optimized it into a monster.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      The supposed alternative, changing distribution of food rather than production of food, was a political decision that was fraught with problems. Any nation without food security soon finds that it can lose all of its other security too. So for a lot of the criticism of the Green Revolution, which comes from a place of wanting a different political structure, but not yet being sure what that structure is, nerds like me see the "alternative" as not a real one. Politics could have saved India, but it did not, it was basic biotech and giving Indian farmers more productivity. If this is a "monster" I'd really like to see a less monstrous alternative proposed, with all the details specified. Because any alternative path sounds too monstrous to be considered by a humane being.

Mirioron 5y ago

Should vitamin and mineral levels be checked during yearly checkups as standard practice? It seems like it would give us a lot of useful data and help people live healthier lives.

inglor_cz 5y ago
Vitamin D deficiency is fairly common, it would make sense to check for it.
rpmisms 5y ago
I know Weston A. Price is a bit of a controversial topic, but his work does show the demineralization of the western world quite effectively. I think supplementation alone is simply a patch on the larger issue, which is the degradation of our land and farming practices.

jfk13 5y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20965771

scandox 5y ago

And less tasty. One of my in-laws started an organic garden solely to supply a local hotel down the country and she gave us a big box of vegetables when we were leaving after a visit. It was very revealing. Everything she gave us had distinct and powerful tastes that were blatantly lacking from their supermarket equivalents (including the ones that say Organic on the label). The garlic blew my mind: I used the usual number of cloves in a recipe and ... well ... we were reeking.

hinkley 5y ago
Lots of foods selected for shelf life. Used to be mostly winter crops that needed that proviso. To wit: one of the two garlics I grow has a 4 month longer shelf life than the other. The one has to be planted in the fall or you risk losing most of your seed cloves by late spring. The other, I just planted a second crop, from garlic harvested last fall. They were not in awesome shape, but about 80% went in the ground.

cultofmetatron 5y ago

one big potential problem with simply adding magnesium to fertilizers is that its is extremely hydrophilic and will lock to water and become impenetrable. My suspicion is that one of the larger issues that aren't even discussed is the role of fungi in the soil. Usually there is a symbiotic relationship between plants and fungi whereby the fungi breaks down minerals in the soil and hands off these precious ions to the plant in exchange for sugars. By giving readily digestible nutrients to the plants via artificial fertilizers, we rob the fungi of its role. The plants stop working with the fungi and they soon die off. This in turn robs us of nutrients the plant would have attained as a result of the symbiotic relationship. Magnesium being among them.

pomian 5y ago
Cool that you brought up fungi. It seems to be a very poorly understood field of study. I think it was an accepted part of the ecosystem for ancient farm technologies, however our modern world of compartmentalizing, nutrients, minerals, pests, etc is missing many of the inter locked natural systems. There have been interesting studies in the last 15-20 years revealing more and more about the micro life in soil. The interplay of bacteria, fungus, nutrients, biology and chemistry, can be quite fragile and using mono crops, selected fertilizers, selected pesticides can screw up that ecosystem. Think about old farmers spreading cow shit everywhere in the garden, composting with other animal manure, which all came from animals fed a wide range of food stuffs.

the_lonely_road 5y ago

Matter cannot be created, just reformed. There were 100,000 humans at one point and now there are 7 billion. All that matter came from somewhere. To be fair, we have killed a lot of animals but also created a lot more in the form of farm animals. It seems reasonable to me that this is unlikely to be sustainable even if we found a way to send humans off planet. Maybe that missing magnesium gets pulled out of the soil into crops, then into our bellies, and then into a wooden box that sits as far away from our arable land as we can get it. I of course have no scientific background or idea what I’m taking about, just a fun pop science theory that came to mind when reading this.

Dylan16807 5y ago
Total living biomass has 550 billion tons of carbon. Of that, 60 million are in human bodies. Most of it's plants, but plants very much need magnesium and other nutrients too.

Waterluvian 5y ago

I’m not arguing against these findings but the whole subject of nutrition leaves me frustrated at times. Ever tried to have 100% daily recommended intake of every nutrient? I suspect almost nobody achieves that. And yet, despite this, and magnesium issues among likely many other issues, our species has never lived longer, grown taller, survived infancy, etc. more than we have now. That being said, as we understand and overcome specific issues, I imagine we can become even healthier.

canadianfella 5y ago
I don’t understand what your point is.
_tom_ 5y ago
That was 20 years ago. Life spans are falling, as is height.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Not everywhere is USA. In most developed countries, lifespans were going up until start of Covid, even though our vegetables are watery too. If I had to guess, I would say that life expectancy in USA would start climbing again if all the obese people managed to shave, say, 5 points off their BMI. Morbid and supermorbid obesity is horribly widespread there. Of course, it is more likely that the rest of the world catches up than that the US slims down.
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  In the United States? Average height in Central America quite a bit lower than the US, which is where most migrants to the US come from.
opportune 5y ago
Yes, I've done it [0]. It's not too hard, surprisingly affordable and not bad-tasting, but you are limited in what you can eat, and it takes some research/optimization that I think is too much for 90% of people. First you need to learn how to get complete nutritional info. A lot of packaged food does not have a full nutritional profile on its packaging, and will omit many vitamins and minerals that could even be abundant in that particular food. To work around this you should use software like Cronometer [1] that allows you to look up nutritional info against various databases. In my experience the most comprehensive data source is the NCCDB, which has all important vitamins and minerals plus amino acid profiles. You can then estimate full nutritional info for most whole foods you buy in a store by converting the store-bought brand's nutritional info to the NCCDB info. For example if you buy oatmeal that says it has 150kcal per 0.5 cup, and the NCCDB info says 100kcal per X grams, you track your store-bought oatmeal as 1.5X grams per 0.5cup you eat. Note this only works for whole/single-ingredient foods, for processed foods with multiple ingredients the ratios of ingredients will vary too much from product to product for the NCCDB to be useful. You should also get a food scale so that you can properly measure food that has its nutritional info based on mass rather than by volume. They're pretty cheap, and you can do before/after measurements to make it less tedious to measure small things. Now that you can get full nutritional info for each whole food, the rest is an optimization problem across macros, micros, amino acids (important if you get a lot of protein from plant-bases sources), price/availability, and your personal preferences. Here is an example of a set of foods I eat almost every day which gives you a very strong macro/micro base: 80g (1 cup) rolled oats, 1 cup unsweetened soy milk, 1 tbsp chia seeds, 1 container Oikos Triple Zero yogurt, 0.5 oz pumpkin seeds, 0.5 oz sunflower seeds, 2 mandarin oranges. Try entering that to Cronometer, you'll see it's about 800kcal and makes good progress in a lot of vitamins and minerals - relevant to the article, it already has 84% of the RDA of magnesium. You can easily max all other micros by eating a dinner consisting of fish, rice and beans, 1 carrot, and some broccoli - and still have room left over for additional macros (which will of course themselves contain extra micros) if you exercise. Of course, this is much more cognitive work than the majority of people want to put in, and because it only works when you buy most of your food in the form of single-ingredients that you then prepare yourself, it's not compatible with a lifestyle of eating lots of prepared foods or dining out. However once you invest the up front time in learning how to do all this, it's not very hard to do, especially if you eat a consistent diet or combine things into set meals you can mix and match [2]. [0] The major exception is I usually don't hit 100% of the RDA for dietary Vitamin D. Dietary vitamin D in non-supplemental form (as found in milk and milk substitutes) is only present in very few foods - oily fish and sun-exposed mushrooms. I do eat these somewhat regularly but not enough to hit 100%. But I think as long as you get adequate sun exposure it's not a big deal. [1] cronometer.com [2] For example, in the example set of foods I provided, the rolled oats + soy milk + chia seeds are eaten together in the form of overnight oats almost every morning.

qwerty456127 5y ago

I never believed in getting nutrients (besides the calories) from the actual food. Supplementation is necessary.

newsclues 5y ago

Funny, that there is a big push to have plant based meat replacements and promotions of vegetarian or vegan diets in the media.

canadianfella 5y ago
Why?
jbotz 5y ago
It stands to reason that meat is probably also becoming less nutritious, since the animals are being raised on those same less-nutritious plants. Especially with respect to micro-nutrients and trace minerals... being short on these causes subtle problems which get worse as you age, but the meat animals don't get very old anyway, so these deficiencies stay hidden.
- newsclues 5y ago
  Don’t meat animals concentrate nutrients and toxins?

ajharrison 5y ago

What they’ve done to your meat and dairy is far far worse. Go vegan, eat your fruits and veggies, and supplement with a multivitamin.

caymanjim 5y ago

I wonder what the source of the nutrition information on FDA labels is. They're not assessing every batch of produce. Is the information we're told about the vitamins and minerals in our broccoli based on crops from last year? A decade ago? A century ago? Is it possible we think we're eating twice as many nutrients as we actually are?

ainiriand 5y ago
This is a very important question, in my opinion. I am going to check how the amounts are calculated.
- wkavey 5y ago
  Please report back!!
  - ainiriand 5y ago
    Terrible availability of information regarding this. For some countries in Europe there is this regulation: https://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labelling-and-nutrition_en https://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labelling-and-nutrition_en but it does not say how or where this information is taken from.
opportune 5y ago
See https://thecounter.org/nutrition-labels-meet-recipal/ https://thecounter.org/nutrition-labels-meet-recipal/ and https://consolidatedlabel.com/label-articles/how-to-get-a-nutrition-facts-label-for-food-products/ https://consolidatedlabel.com/label-articles/how-to-get-a-nu.... The TLDR is not every food needs to be lab tested as long as they can take their ingredients and compare them against national databases (e.g. NCCDB) to estimate nutritional info. And yes, some of the data in those databases is old and perhaps overly general - it's totally reasonable to suspect that vegetables grown in one area, as part of a specific breeding line, in a certain manner, have totally different nutritional info compared to the same generic vegetable grown elsewhere in a different manner. However keep in mind a lot of food does not list all micronutrients as part of their labelling. This actually kinda drives me nuts and I have no idea why e.g. frozen vegetables don't list things like Vitamin K, magnesium, and zinc when they're often actually good sources of many nutrients.

jacobkg 5y ago

One thing I have noticed over the years is that I am addicted to the taste of Costco’s Kirkland signature bottled water (similar to Dasani but nothing like bottled “spring water”) One hypothesis I have is that my body is craving magnesium, which is one of the “minerals added for taste”.

inglor_cz 5y ago
I had a similar craving for Magnesia, a Czech mineral water high in magnesium. Once I started supplementing magnesium by other means, I can go without Magnesia for weeks.

the_lonely_road 5y ago

Meta comment on this thread so forgive me. There are only 40 comments and 3 of them are top level comments stating that taking magnesium supplements cured their health issue. One is anxiety, one is sleep issues, and one is migraines. These are some of the same claims I hear from the marijuana enthusiasts on Reddit frequently. I don’t have any points to make about the observation, just noticed it and felt compelled to share.

pvg 5y ago
Oh, an observation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOs7YjSLEMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOs7YjSLEMk
wizzwizz4 5y ago
Medicine solves some medical problems, if you're taking the right medicine. (I think this is all a layperson can take away from the observation.)
sabco 5y ago
For anyone taking magnesium supplements that have found it helpful, did you ever get a blood test to look at your magnesium levels and did they say you were deficient based on the reference ranges?
- patall 5y ago
  Unfortunately, that is what lots of people do not do. Noticed it recently with Vitamin D where everyone was like: "There is much deficiency, there are no down sites, let's all take it." And I was like: "Sure, there are probably benefits, but for people with actual deficiency. There is a test for that, why don't you do that?" But at that point, it was too late because you can't test for a deficiency once you supplement it.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    As much as 90% of the US population may be deficient in vitamin D, so you have a good chance of it. That said, I agree that testing is good, either before or after supplementation. https://www.grassrootshealth.net/document/grassrootshealth-participants-compare-general-u-s-population/ https://www.grassrootshealth.net/document/grassrootshealth-p...

lamontcg 5y ago

> Magnesium deficiency can be attributed to common dietary practices, medications, and farming techniques, along with estimates that the mineral content of vegetables has declined by as much as 80–90% in the last 100 years. This is why, when people defend GMOs with the argument that we've been genetically modifying plants and animals for hundreds of years by selective breeding, that I don't think that argument leads to the conclusions they're looking for which is that its all perfectly harmless.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
But it does help focus the discussion on whether the changes are harmful, away from “it's a change, and change is bad”.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Change in complex system is risky. Some people are risk averse.
  - kadoban 5y ago
    Is lack of change in complex systems safe? I'd guess it's more that complex systems are inherently risky.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      In such arguments, it is assumed that the current sate of things is already acceptable. That's exactly why people don't want to change them.
      - kadoban 5y ago
        The current state of things isn't very stable though, especially when there's already a bunch of other parts of it we're intentionally or unintentionally modifying.
- lamontcg 5y ago

Xcelerate 5y ago

When we moved to the Bay Area, I started going to the farmers markets and was blown away by the quality of the vegetables. Peas grown at Iacopi Farms in Half Moon Bay were crisp and sweet. Zuckerman's Farm grew a special kind of squash bred specifically for flavor (honeynut squash). Fresh plums pulled off of trees in San Francisco were just bursting with juice. Mashed potatoes made from La Ratte potatoes. And Delta asparagus — wow. Now that we've left the Bay Area, I find that I'm even more disappointed by grocery store vegetables than I used to be. The vegetables are dry, wilted, flavorless — repugnant even. No wonder children don't want to eat them. Seriously considering setting up a miniature green house and growing my own stuff at this point.

ferdowsi 5y ago
You were previously buying family-farm vegetables and switched to industrialized, grocery store produce. You can definitely walk into a Safeway in SF and get garbage produce. Hopefully your local ecosystem supports some native farming that you can make use of.
nine_k 5y ago
Check if a farmer market is held near where you live. It may be seasonal, but it's still better than dull vegs around the year.
- VLM 5y ago
  Around here its the same brands and same cardboard boxes at the farmers market, the upscale supermarket, and the organic supermarket, although they mark the price up at the farmers market because of the extra labor and substantial fees the market charges, also its sort of a hipster tax. In addition to paying to park at the farmers market.
yumraj 5y ago
Which farmers market? Not all farmers markets here are equal, so curious.
mycall 5y ago
Vertical farming is replacing green houses these days.

CraigJPerry 5y ago

The BBC more or less episode with James Wong is making me wonder if this is true (shorter summary of what James said on the podcast: https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276801 https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276... ) Anyway, from the paper here: >> with estimates that vegetables have dropped magnesium levels by 80–90% in the U.S. (Figure 2) and the UK [11,12,13,32,33] Reference 11 doesn’t support this claim. Ref 12 doesn’t directly mention Mg but does say some nutrients have dropped between 5-40% which is NOT 80-90% Ref 13 does mention mg specifically on page 3 but states under 20%. … I think i’m being fleeced by this paper.

jcoq 5y ago
Looked into this myself and you're absolutely correct. Reference 11 doesn't even come close.

WalterBright 5y ago

Magnesium and other minerals don't disappear when consumed, it comes out again with sewage. Hence, soil depletion could be addressed by turning sewage into fertilizer.

todsacerdoti 5y ago

If you are interested in this topic and want to know more, I highly recommend the book The Dorito Effect - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_8T2KJGDGBN55WHR9430G https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm...

walrus01 5y ago

If you ever travel in a developing nation like Nepal and eat the vegetables in a rural region there, and then return to the US/Canada, the difference is immediately noticeable.

alliao 5y ago
yes reading your comments took me back to Peru and their corn and potato. Even chicken, I ate simplest food but had enjoyed them so much.

nate_meurer 5y ago

My youngest daughter struggled mightily with constipation for the first six years of her life. Hours on the toilet crying, day after day. At some point when she was six or maybe seven, I read a blurb somewhere about the importance of magnesium for smooth muscle operation. That day I added a teaspoon of epsom salt to some juice and gave it to her. The next day her constipation disappeared. We all now take cheap 400 mg Mg supplement daily, and in the five years since she hasn't been constipated even once. Closest thing to a "miracle cure" I've ever encountered. We're all vegetarians and do pretty well on fiber, but increasing my daughter's insoluble fiber intake when she was little was difficult, and resulted only in more bloating. But a little magnesium, whatever the mechanism, fixed her right up.

rpmisms 5y ago
> We're all vegetarians and do pretty well on fiber Thank you for not making your kids be vegan. It's extremely hard to get kids proper nutrients on a vegan diet. Related: Milk has good magnesium content, more so if grass-fed. If you can get raw milk from a local small farm, it's worth it.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  I've imposed some dietary restrictions on my kids, but they're mostly glycemic in nature. - No sugary drinks; absolutely no soda pop, ever, and very little fruit juice, which is really no better than pop. - No sugary breakfasts. Breakfast cereal is fucking poison, especially the sweetened varieties. - No kids-menu food. When we eat out, they've always ordered off the adult menu. No pizza, chicken nuggets, mac-n-cheese, french fries, PB&J, grilled cheese on white bread, etc. Everywhere I look I see people who have let their kids turn into kids-menu kids-- kids who tolerate only pizza, deep fried food, breakfast cereal, etc. And everywhere I look now, I see fat kids and teens with the beginnings of diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease. Any pediatrician will gladly talk about the growing crisis of metabolic syndrome in kids. My kids went vegetarian completely of their own accord, likely copying me, but they've stuck with it. The main thing is that they've always eaten what we eat. It took a little training, but their tastes developed rapidly (as all kids' do) and from a young age they could enjoy a full range of healthy adult food with few very few aversions. For example, my youngest still doesn't love blue cheese, but she can tolerate it. My older teen eats blue cheese from a bowl like ice cream.

mahgnous 5y ago

And people think artificial meat is gonna be good for them, LOL.

bamboozled 5y ago

I know we’re all talking about the supplements we take, which fixes the issues for the individual, but what of the actual problem ? I’m starting to feel like the USA is doomed in the long run because there’s too many corrupt influences in politics and science. We’re constantly told x is good for us. Until we all find out it really wasn’t and now we're in trouble.

PKop 5y ago

Another argument against the senseless, detrimental addition of Fluoride in water supply: "In addition, fluoride, found in 74% of the American population’s drinking water, with ~50% of drinking water having a concentration of 0.7 mg/L, prevents magnesium absorption through binding and production of insoluble complexes."

interlocutor 5y ago

Magnesium solved two problems for me: stiff muscles and insomnia. Scientific information about how magnesium works is hard to come by. Here's what I have been able to gather from various sources: The cells in your body need calcium to go into "on state". To go into "off state" magnesium has to go in and displace calcium. When your body is low on magnesium your muscles can't go into "off state" and your muscles become stiff. To relax you need an Epsom salt bath (it contains magnesium) or just take magnesium supplements. When your brain cells can't go to "off state" you can't sleep. You need magnesium to help your brain cells go into off state. However the "blood brain barrier" (look it up) prevents magnesium from easily entering the brain. Magnesium l-threonate (that's a compound of magnesium, not a brand name) can pass through this barrier and help you sleep. I have had sleep issues for many years. I saw many doctors including sleep specialists but all they wanted to do is put me on prescription meds. But these meds are addictive and you have to take it for the rest of your life. I didn't want that. These are "quick fixes". As a software developer I was interested in finding the underlying problem and fix that, as opposed to the quick fixes that the medical community was offering me. A breakthrough came when I saw a naturopathic doctor for my stiff muscles and she advised me to take Epsom salt baths. That seemed to help. I investigated more and found out that the ingredient in Epsom salt that helped me is magnesium. Then I found out that you can actually get magnesium pills and tried that. That worked remarkably well. But the big surprise was that I slept better the night I tried the magnesium pill. Since then I have been researching how it is that magnesium helped me sleep. Stress depletes magnesium in your body. If you are a software developer you are stressing your brain all day when you do your job and you are depleting magnesium. Low magnesium levels causes muscle issues as well as sleep issues. Magnesium supplements solve the problem. It is very unfortunate that medical doctors don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. When I see doctors I mention that I am taking magnesium for muscle and sleep issues and they seem surprised, but no doctor has yet told me that I am wrong. Note that magnesium is a natural mineral, not a drug, essential for your body, and found in many foods. Excess amounts of magnesium can cause a laxative effect, but this is very temporary.

kossTKR 5y ago
How much magnesium are we talking about here? I actually have magnesium in my supplement drawer : "Magnesium Carbonate from natural sources" - it says take 2 grams, max 4 grams and let it "sit in cold water for 10 minutes, or warmer water for 10 seconds" before drinking. Is that the range you are taking and is the l-threonate form much better, ie. is carbonate useless? Interested in trying this out later this night..

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joecool1029 5y ago

I wonder how nutritious edible weeds are? I assume a lot of the loss of nutrients comes from rigorously farming the same monoculture land for things like shitty iceberg lettuce. Maybe a little unfair to single that out when corn and tomatoes are especially greedy plants. As I watch the edges of the woods get overtaken with garlic mustard and tearthumb, I'm thinking why not eat them? I realize this isn't going to work for those in a city but I do wonder about the nutrition of things growing wild on land that isn't typically farmed.

aaron695 5y ago

Even if this was true, which it is not, if you have nutrient deficiencies you need supplements not better food. In present day Western society if you don't get everything you need, which will be from disease, alcoholism, age, lack of sun or specific diets like Vegan, food cannot accurately help.

aurizon 5y ago

Plants in the wild are in a continuous battle against insects, molds and fungi and herbivores. They excrete assorted defensive chemical and build others into their tissues. A 'pet' plant is protected against a large number of these attacks = it makes less of them. A number of these affect taste and flavor as the herbivore defences are turned off. Caterpillars are herbivore BTW. So these pet plants become more pure pulp. These are my speculations. but I think they are worth studying. Loss of Magnesium is a known decline caused by over use of magnesium by the plants grown and there has not been selective magnesium fertilisation. They should study some of the common rocks to see which ones are suitable to be ground up and added to the soil.

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kaitai 5y ago

I see a lot of discussion of nutrient content of farmed vegetables here. A cheap and easy alternative to farmed greens lies in foraging wild weeds. Reports from scientists at UC Berkeley have found that toxins like heavy metals, PCBs, etc don't bioaccumulate in these wild greens, so that's great. They rival kale and spinach in their nutritive value. And they're free! Learn to reliably identify the weeds around you and you'll find tons of joy in weeding your backyard or foraging at a park and getting a dinner salad (or bathua ka saag, or quelites, or horta, or minestrella soup) out of it. And it's incredibly unlikely someone's going to be pissed at you for picking their dandelions/purslane/cat's ear/goosefoot/plantain. (Do avoid areas that have had pesticide applied.) https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-city-areas-more-nutritious-than-store-bought-produce/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-cit... https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1

oooooooooo88 5y ago

Yhh

oooooooooo88 5y ago

CyanLite4 5y ago

Jigsaw SRT Magnesium twice a day has solved my anxiety, muscle cramps, and heart palpitations. It’s one of the only “slow release” formulas out there. Magnesium normally can cause a laxative effect.

amai 5y ago

Coincidence? "Vitamin D is currently the only Essential Vitamin or Mineral which appears to have deficiency rates at a similar level to Magnesium" https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient... Dai (2018): Magnesium status and supplementation influence vitamin D status and metabolism: results from a randomized trial https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/ "Our findings suggest that optimal magnesium status may be important for optimizing 25(OH)D status. " So it might well be that general deficiency in Vitamin D is caused by the deficiency in magnesium status. This would also be an explanation why we see Vitamin D deficiency in sunny Africa: https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-not-common-in-africa-think-again-140080 https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-no...