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Amazon US customers given one week to opt out of mass wireless sharing
- eloeffler 5y agoThis is such a great plot beginning for a new Skynet story :)
- unyttigfjelltol 5y agoThat Skynet is funnelling data & connections into a network it constructed out of junk electronics it sold under the guise of other functionality, and thus is removing the ability of humans to airgap other Skynet devices? Seems like we're in the middle of the book to me.
- eloeffler 5y agoI'll wait for the movie on streaming :D
- r00fus 5y agoDoes this include echo-capable devices like car entertainment systems?
- floatingatoll 5y agoNo. The "Sidewalk Bridge" devices that will share your internet to the Sidewalk are, as of today: > Ring Floodlight Cam (2019), Ring Spotlight Cam Wired (2019), Ring Spotlight Cam Mount (2019), Echo (3rd gen and newer), Echo Dot (3rd gen and newer), Echo Dot for Kids (3rd gen and newer), Echo Dot with Clock (3rd gen and newer), Echo Plus (all generations), Echo Show (all models and generations), Echo Spot, Echo Studio, Echo Input, Echo Flex. — https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011
- aatharuv 5y agoThanks. I was wondering why the sidewalk didn't show up on my Alexa app (I have an unsupported device, luckily.)
- gertrunde 5y agoThis link is also helpful: https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/amazon-sidewalk-will-create-entire-smart-neighborhoods-faq-ble-900-mhz/ https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/amazon-sidewalk-will-cr... It's interesting that only a few devices, mostly the newer ones, are capable of using LoRa. All the older ones are just BLE (i.e. technically <100m range, but in real world conditions probably 10-30m max).
- toddh 5y agoThis option does not exist on my alexa app. So...
- josefresco 5y agoThis page on Tom's Guide has good background, a list of devices and instructions on how to opt out. https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk Amazon App> More > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk > Disable
- dlhavema 5y agoLooks like I don't have the update yet. I don't see this menu option.
- slobiwan 5y agoCheck the Alexa app, not the Amazon app. Shows up in mine
- ch4s3 5y agoI'm seeing the same issue as the parent. I've check the alexa app under account settings and the option does not appear. The last version on the app store is from 2 weeks ago. I wonder if this is a web view and they're exposing it to different users at different times.
- smaccona 5y agoIt doesn't show up in my Alexa app (iOS), and I am running the latest version (I have auto-update enabled). I only see Recognized Voices, Guest Connect, Voice Purchasing and Workouts. I see online references to this setting as long ago as November 2020[1], so it's concerning that it's still missing for me. Edit: I just realized that all my Echo devices are 2nd generation, which apparently don't support Sidewalk[2]. I wonder if the menu item only shows up if you have devices that support it? [1] https://www.aftvnews.com/amazon-has-started-switching-sidewalk-settings-from-off-to-on-without-asking-to-share-your-internet-wifi-with-the-public/ https://www.aftvnews.com/amazon-has-started-switching-sidewa... [2] https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk
- SteveNuts 5y agoHow does this work with data caps? Is Amazon going to reimburse me for overage charges from my ISP if my neighbors are using my data?
- floatingatoll 5y agoNo.
- adamredwoods 5y agoAmazon notes this in their FAQ: it's capped at 80kbps and max of 500MB per month. I don't know if this includes Bluetooth though.
- asdff 5y agoSo they are stealing 500MB of your cap if they aren't compensating you.
- ikiris 5y agoAs exchange for their otherwise unpaid service from those devices, they're using a fraction of your potentially capped internet if you happen to be in a market with such poor competition and/or poor regulatory environment that your service is capped.
- chasebro 5y agoSo like 90% of the US?
- Dylan16807 5y agoThe US is full of slow internet, but it's not particularly plagued by capped internet. There are a bunch of 1TB caps around, but a cap like that would suggest that the value of 500MB is 3 to 10 cents at most. Just using 3 watts at idle is already enough to cost the average person 25 cents a month.
- shiado 5y agoWhat will happen is some high profile company that has a few Amazon devices on their network will have these devices exploited to gain network access and get hit with some ransomware/data theft/etc... and then there will be a big legal battle between Amazon and the hacked company and this whole idea will be shut down and consumers will get a $10 class action settlement for each device.
- rudyfink 5y agoMaybe not? Most consumer arbitration agreements these days ban asserting class claims. This has been on the rise since 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc.... In my opinion, this legal change is a huge sleeper story that is behind a number of changes in how customers are getting treated. Since customers can no longer economically avail themselves of the courts to protect themselves en-masse, certain companies find it in their interest to exploit that asymmetry for profit. In other words, a company could always impose a harm on all of its customers for its profit. But, now, if that that company imposes a class ban through arbitration, those customers cannot, collectively, seek recourse for that harm.
- csharptwdec19 5y agoIt's amazing to watch companies admit they abuse this pattern. A couple years ago I got into it with Comcast over an Identity fraud issue. When I threatened to take them to court for harrassment (I'd sent them more than what was needed to prove I never resided at the address in question) they tried to throw the 'binding arbitration' clause out there... When I told them I never was or would be a customer of theirs and thus wasn't held to their arbitration, they didn't quite know what to say next.
- 1123581321 5y agoWas this a conversation with their legal department?
- zdragnar 5y ago
- atomicnumber3 5y agoI just disabled Sidewalk on mine a few days ago. This feels like it could be part of the plot of one of RMS's short stories a-la Right to Read. Jeez. What a joke. Not a ha-ha joke, you know what I mean. That said, part of me (a very small part, mind you. Infinitesimal even.) wonders if in some weird way this will be good for the internet? Suddenly, thanks to Amazon, an IP address is no longer a person and you can point to Sidewalk as a concrete example that isn't just owner negligence. Mind you that's a very thin silver lining for such an absurdly large can of worms, but I digress.
- atkailash 5y agoMesh networks would be great. But should be opt in
- xur17 5y agoI agree. Part of me is kind of excited to see something like this built - the parts that scare me are: 1. The kind of data collection that this will enable (random tv can send data back to the manufacturer even if you never connect it to the internet) 2. Amazon being in control / being the only one that can decide what devices connect. 3. The user receiving no benefit for enabling this
- Buttons840 5y agoEstablishing that precedent can't hurt mesh networks.
- snegu 5y agoI'm curious - is it an altruistic act to leave this functionality enabled? I'm all for making wifi access easier for people.
- Animats 5y ago"People like you helping people like us help ourselves" - Processed World slogan.
- Retric 5y agoIt’s so “smart” TV’s etc can send data home even if you don’t connect them to the internet. Longer term expect random devices you own to inject even more advertising into your daily life.
- dec0dedab0de 5y agoI didn't even think of this. That is terrifying.
- philsnow 5y agoAmazon is going to sell access to Sidewalk to e.g. TV manufacturers (and anybody else), making money off of your internet connection. Before Sidewalk, if a device manufacturer wanted to be able to get sensor/environmental/etc data back to the mothership, it had to either pair to a phone with bluetooth, use wifi (needs creds), or include a 2g modem with a SIM (pretty expensive). A customer who doesn't see a need for that device to have that connection just won't pair / give wifi creds, and the 2g modems/SIMs are expensive enough to keep them out of most devices. In a world where Sidewalk is a viable option, a lot more devices will be sending whatever information they like that they can sample about you out of your house. Sure, it makes sense to carefully read the privacy policy when you're buying a echo dot or ring whatever, but are you going to be so careful when you're buying a toaster? This episode of black mirror sucks.
- philsnow 5y agoMy only options for escaping Sidewalk are living far enough away from neighbors or convincing all the neighbors within range of my house that they shouldn't have any Sidewalk bridge-able devices. I would at least be interested in a way of finding out what sidewalk bridges are accessible from my location. Anybody know of a way? Is it just wifi?
- vincent-toups 5y agoI'd rather go without internet than have one of these damned smart devices in my house. I can't believe how popular they are.
- cduzz 5y agoI have an old dot connected to my stereo to stream music. As they say, it is extremely convenient to be able to request some music and have it played. My amplifier has a switched outlet on the back that I've plugged the USB into; so if I turn off the amplifier the dot is powered off as well (presumably). And, apparently, 2nd generation dots don't "support" sidewalk anyhow (though of course it is a little snitch hiding in my living room). The "smart" TV is more of a concern as it is always on...
- pugworthy 5y ago> I can't believe how popular they are. I guess you could say they are about like those "new-fangled horseless carriages". You could argue that we sold our souls to the devil at the (now regulated) crossroads with them. But at the time (and now), they bring some real value at a cost that not all are aware of, or willing to pay.
- wombat-man 5y agothey were practically giving them away at times.
- sokoloff 5y agoI have my IoT/IoS devices cordoned off onto their own network locally (with internet access, of course) as a matter of trying to protect my LAN from any exploit. However, I find the convenience of these devices to be extremely high: they play music, they give us convenient timers, they function as a whole house intercom, they tell us the weather and answer (often poorly) some random questions without going to get our phones out.
- cheeze 5y agoThe whole IoT thing just goes to show how... unique many people on HN are. I get it, it's a risk, etc. but IMO the convenience is massive. I do the same as you do, its a bit more work but it works fine for my use case. Use reputable products and segment them and the attack vector is rather small, IMO. I also try to not use wifi devices and instead go for something like zwave.
- hellisothers 5y agoI’ve seen a couple other articles like this that that to “both sides” this by claiming Apple does it with AirTags. Seems pretty disingenuous, feels like comparing faxing documents to the internet…
- kstrauser 5y agoI've seen this, too. Apple: Their device: "Hi, I'm an AirTag! This is my serial number!" Your device: "hey Apple, I was at (X, Y) when I saw this serial number." Amazon: Their device: "Hi, can I send traffic through your network?" Your device: "sure, buddy!" They're so fundamentally different that I pretty much assume a bad faith argument from people who say they're similar.
- beezischillin 5y agoThe other major difference is that you directly benefit from Find My and you can also turn it off any time you want.
- luma 5y agoPlaying devil's advocate here... aren't those same two things true of Sidewalk? If you purchase an Apple tag, then you benefit from other users who have this feature enabled. If you buy a device that uses Sidewalk, same situation. Both can be disabled.
- YeBanKo 5y agoYou can’t opt out of Sidewalk after June 9. You can opt out of Apple’s Find My network any time you want on a per device basis.
- ThatPlayer 5y agoYou can opt out at any time. June 9th is just when they're turning the network on.
- dv_dt 5y agoThis kind of privacy touching feature should be required to be opt in.
- a3n 5y agoBut not many people would bother to opt in, even if they knew about it, so ...
- thatguy0900 5y agoWell if noone who owns these devices wants to do it it probably shouldn't be done then, right? Or Amazon could give a 5$ credit or something. That would probably be enough.
- xboxnolifes 5y agoReality is, most people who own these devices wouldn't know how or be aware it's even an option, and a mass marketing campaign would need to go into effect to just make people aware of it and why they would potentially want to do it. Or they can just make it automatic.
- thatguy0900 5y agoIf Amazon wants to release a feature that they make a bunch of money off of selling it to advertisers, that uses customer resources and doesn't benefit them, and many/most customers actively don't want it, then they need to convince people to say yes. How is people not wanting to do it justification for Amazon doing it? If they want it done they can offer credits
- a3n 5y agoI'm not saying it's justified. It's not. But low likelihood of opting in would be a reason why they'd make it out out. See, for example, UMN vs Linux.
- drusepth 5y ago
- kokanator 5y agoHere is the white paper from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GRGWE27XHZPRPBGX https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
- kiseleon 5y agoI noticed this option in my settings months ago and disabled it then.
- wnevets 5y agoThe Security Now podcast has a great episode [1] about why this isn't as scary as the headlines make it out to be. I'm actually quite disappointed at the sheer amount of fearmongering surrounding this technology here on HN of all places. For some reason I expected HN to be better than the general tech press when it came to these things. [1] https://twit.tv/shows/security-now/episodes/796 https://twit.tv/shows/security-now/episodes/796
- teachingassist 5y agoI don't particularly find it "scary", but it is monopolistic practice. Amazon are using their devices to get a lead on the competition, and in a way which consumers are unlikely to think is fair. If a company approaches me wanting to put infrastructure in my house (that only benefits them and may incur charges to me), they should normally expect to pay rent.
- aorth 5y agoI think it's definitely scary. How is this even legal? In what world is it OK for Amazon to co-opt my internet connection and share it with random passers-by? Even if it's only 80kbps and 500MB/month (as another commenter pointed out), this will be just the beginning if they get their way. It will set a precedent for them and others. And they know that most people won't notice or care enough to turn it off! This is just disgusting arrogance from Amazon.
- teachingassist 5y agoThere once was a time when I was happy to share my wi-fi with my neighbours. Everyone pays for their own household now, only because of general corporate scaremongering and specific lobbying to claim that the owner is liable for misuse. I remain surprised there isn't a bigger movement and open source infrastructure for sharing connections locally. If I was able to share a few connections with my apartment-neighbours, that would be cheaper and more reliable than my current setup.
- 5y ago
- warmfuzzykitten 5y agoThis is a terrific example of a permission that should be opt in.
- noobermin 5y agoI'm honestly surprised this is legal at all.
- thatguy0900 5y agoHas anyone ever tried to do something like it to see? Maybe it won't be
- sys_64738 5y agoT1000: Hey Alexa, you're Terminated.
- detaro 5y agoduplicate, please check before submitting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27328087
- williesleg 5y agoI'm sure they all do that under the covers.
- Kye 5y agoI used to get annoyed every time Amazon would push an OS update to my old Kindle fire only to patch a root exploit I could use to install an up to date Android, but it's probably for the best that they lost me as a customer with their hostile practices.
- rubyfan 5y agoThe article reads a little alarmist honestly. They have created a low bandwidth mesh network for mostly IOT devices. I don’t get how this is suddenly compared with sharing internet. The later of which, Comcast actually did and does.
- throwaway3699 5y agoHere in the UK, BT does the same thing and nobody seems to complain. If you're a BT customer you can use your own data through somebody else's router. Maybe actually giving something in return is the answer for Amazon?
- bbatsell 5y agoFar be it from me to defend Comcast, but it's not equivalent in the slightest. Comcast creates a separate network, with a separate IP, using their cable modem and the DOCSIS bandwidth available on their network. Its third-party usage does not count against your data cap, and any nefarious usage would not be associated with your own account and possibly subject you to civil or criminal sanctions.
- detaro 5y agoDevices can only talk to specific Amazon APIs (which then hand the request to manufacturer APIs) with Sidewalk, they don't get to arbitrarily use your internet connection either.
- remarkEon 5y agoArticle doesn't mention it, but this is how you opt-out (there are others but this one has screenshots). https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk Added to my list for the next time I'm on the phone with my parents, for our (weekly at this point) how-to sessions on "stopping the industry I work in from spying on you". I really, really wish product managers would understand the kind of ecosystem they're building, and the kind of customer blow-back they will enable by optimizing for $$$ under the guise of "making things easier". Side question: what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? Bad connectivity experiences for Ring users? Edit: changed the link to a better guide linked elsewhere in the thread
- philsnow 5y ago> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? Bad connectivity experiences for Ring users? I wrote my guess elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 tl;dr Amazon will resell access to Sidewalk to device manufacturers, allowing them to cost-effectively bridge the "telemetry gap".
- wearywanderer 5y agoNo bones about it, this is Amazon's response to > If you don't want your smart tv to spy on you, then don't give it your wifi password.
- teknopaul 5y agoHow's does it stand legally stealing people's Internet connection and selling it to people who don't have the password.
- prepend 5y agoLegally, every Amazon device user agreed to a TOS that lets Amazon do whatever they want and change at any time. So we’re kind of lucky they at least announced it as they could have just turned it on and opted everyone in.
- landonxjames 5y agoI was worried that my Eero routers were going to get roped into this, but thankfully the CEO confirmed on Reddit[0] that there are currently no plans to involve their products in Sidewalk. [0]https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/nnvs20/amazon_sidewalk_project_and_eerowill_eero_be_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/nnvs20/amazon_sidewal...
- wearywanderer 5y agoNo plans... at least until Amazon offers them a big enough bribe.
- 1123581321 5y agoAmazon owns them. If you knew that, apologies, it wasn’t clear to me. Regardless, Sidewalk doesn’t make much sense for Eero since it provides the traditional Internet access points for the IoT devices that make up the Sidewalk mesh.
- failwhaleshark 5y ago94.9% pure, organic, outrage, clickbait FUD. This feels like an "you're either with us or you're against us, Amazon B A D"-article. The central thesis is misleading and wrong because it's NOT "unlimited, direct sharing of your WiFi to whatever Amazon users happen to fall and scrape their knees outside your home because they can't skateboard," it's "likely low-rate connectivity for other Amazon users' devices over Bluetooth or (maybe) Zigbee gated through Echo devices acting as bridges that happen to use WiFi as a backhaul." Tile does the same thing already with their mobile app over Bluetooth - everyone with the app and BT on participates as a missing tag locator; Amazon is adding Tile into the mix (900 MHz BLE for Tile Pro) for another way to find tags. Is Amazon going to suddenly allow or support BitTorrent-to-eSATA light dimmers (or some sort of WiFi backdoor)? IDTS. Where's the problem (other than opt-in vs. opt-out)? PS: I worked in a radio group of a GPS manufacturer at the time when radio modules were in their kindergarten years. 900 MHz of BLE is always going to work better than 2.4 GHz for low rate data because of physics. 900 MHz is awesome.
- strictnein 5y ago> Where's the problem (other than opt-in vs. opt-out)? What's the problem, other than the major problem?
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoSo you're planning on just letting this happen on your devices; I get it, too much hassle, etc. No need to try and get others to not opt out if they choose to though, that sounds like a lot of effort for someone who's okay with it. Or are you paid by Amazon to promote it?
- Dylan16807 5y agoDon't.
- adolph 5y agoWhen youʼve left something far behind, like at the beach or the gym, the Find My network — hundreds of millions of iPhone, iPad, and Mac devices around the world — helps track down your AirTag. And itʼs designed to protect your privacy every step of the way. I wonder if Apple has opt-out/in for the "Find My network?" https://www.apple.com/airtag/ https://www.apple.com/airtag/
- giantg2 5y agoEw, no thank you. Another reason to buy 'dumb' devices or homebrew your own solution.
- gertrunde 5y agoIs this massively different from the way Apple tags are tracked by Apple devices that are not the tag owners devices?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- azinman2 5y agoIt seems to be. It can use up to 500mb/month of data, and is more than just for tracking something with tiny payloads of anonymized data. But it doesn’t seem to be sharing your internet like a lot of people seem to claim. I guess the fear is that there’s some security vulnerability that makes that more possible?
- kstrauser 5y agoFrom their FAQ: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281... > When Sidewalk is on, your Bridge can share a low-bandwidth connection with Sidewalk-enabled devices, like sensors and smart lights that are installed in locations around and outside your home where wifi may not be available. Amazon Sidewalk does not support high-bandwidth connections like a wifi or cellular network would, so you would still use those connections for streaming movies, posting on social media or sending email. It does share your Internet connection. By default, an Alexa device in my house would be negotiating a connection sharing arrangement with my neighbor's. If/when a vulnerability is found in these devices, an attacker on my neighbor's network will have connectivity to a node on my network. Now imagine the case where a small business has a vulnerable Alexa on their network to play some music in the office. Anyone who could get a hacked Alexa within 900MHz range of that office would have access to that office, open file shares, etc.
- secabeen 5y agoPerhaps, but does the same thing not apply to Apple iOS or Google Android devices? If an attacker finds a vulnerability in one of these common devices, they can compromise any of your users' devices and can then open file shares, exfiltrate data over their cellular link, etc. We are now in year 7 of availability of Amazon Echo devices, and there are two recorded vulnerabilities (one required internal hardware access, the other required connecting the device to a malicious WiFi AP.) Given that track record, there may never be a broadly exploitable vulnerability in the devices; they are pretty locked down and they auto-update regularly, with no provision for delaying or blocking said updates.
- mulmen 5y ago> Users can disable Sidewalk in the settings section of the Alexa or Ring apps, but have until 8 June to do so. After that, if they have taken no action, the network will be turned on and their devices will become “Sidewalk Bridges”. But the setting will still be available, right?
- CharlesW 5y agoYes. It’s a scarier way to say that it’s opt-out.
- philsnow 5y agoSo the opt-out period is only only one week, and I presumably won't be able to opt out later? I don't own any of these devices, but if I want to have the option to buy one later but not have it be a sidewalk bridge, I guess I have to download the Alexa app and... oh in order to opt out, I have to log in to the Alexa app with my Amazon account, and in order to log in, I have to agree to: - Alexa Terms of Use - Amazon Conditions of Use - Amazon Privacy Notice - Children's Privacy Disclosure - Amazon Prime Terms - Amazon Music Terms of Use - Kindle Store Terms of Use - Audible Service Conditions of Use - Amazon Dash Replenishment Terms of Use - Amazon Kids+ Terms & Conditions (F/K/A FreeTime Unlimited) - Amazon PHotos Terms of Use - Amazon Device Terms of Use - IMDb Legal Information - Amazon Video Terms of Use (all are links to legelese documents) ... I'll just commit today to never buying any of those sidewalk devices in the future.
- lucasmullens 5y ago>in order to opt out, I have to log in to the Alexa app with my Amazon account, and in order to log in, I have to agree to: If you already have an Alexa device running on your network, you've already agreed to all those terms. That concern seems fairly unrelated. Also I wouldn't assume you can't opt-out later. Pretty sure you can, actually.
- philsnow 5y ago> If you already have an Alexa device running on your network I don't, which is why I was installing the Alexa app on my phone. > I wouldn't assume you can't opt-out later ah, I was thrown by the headline "given one week to opt out".
- siavosh 5y agoDoesn't this break the terms of service for most ISPs? I remember during the last crypto-craze, there were attempts to monetize this resharing with tokens of some sort and the ISP's put an end to that real quick with legal threats against anyone reselling their internet. Even if this is free Amazon sharing, I'm sure some business is being built off of it?
- topspin 5y ago> Doesn't this break the terms of service for most ISPs? Probably. Amazon is operating on the premise that it's easier to ask forgiveness than obtain permission.
- titzer 5y agoBig Brother won't be a boot on the face, forever, it will be private enterprise mesh network that comes wrapped in charming corporate market babble. "Telescreens help keep you connected with your friends and relatives. They monitor activity and upload anonymous usage statistics that help make our products even better. Telescreens help make society safe and secure, ensuring that you can enjoy your choice of government-approved home activities without a worry. Stay protected from roving bands of child-raping coke addicts! Try our new HappyFace(tm) mood-altering brain implants, guaranteed to put a smile on your face and stamp out that pesky thoughtcrime!"
- monkeynotes 5y agoAll of that sounds like a boot stomping to me. Complete oppression and control.
- monkeynotes 5y agoWhy the dickens isn't this opt-in? Now we live in a world where a corp can sit on your own home network and do business using your bandwidth without you explicitly agreeing. Not to mention the potential for security issues.
- local_dev 5y agoWe all know the answer to this. It absolutely should be opt-in, but they know that around 96% of people will never opt-in. See: iOS 14.5 privacy changes.
- Dah00n 5y agoLike Apple Amazon will change to OPT-IN when it is in their own interest and likely only after killing off some competitors. So maybe in a few years time..
- kergonath 5y agoMaking something opt-out because you know that people would not opt in voluntarily is a class of evil on its own. It is simply fraud and deception.
- Spivak 5y agoI agree with you but it seems that most people outside HN don’t agree. As long as it’s done for good (organ donation) people support the same manipulation.
- bscphil 5y agoThat's not necessarily true. The biggest reason that people don't opt in to things voluntarily is because people are lazy, not because they've weighed the options and decided that opting in doesn't benefit them. (See the sibling comment, which mentions organ donation.) We had this whole debate over COVID tracking. They've come up with a system that is actually pretty secure. It's entirely client side: none of your location information is ever revealed unless you report yourself as having tested positive for COVID. Opting in is not that unreasonable even for paranoid people (I use the app). And yet it has to be an opt-in system, which means it's unlikely to be effective. Similar with Apple having its network for those tracking things set to opt-out, not opt-in. Having the network available to its customers is a benefit to them, and not enough people would opt in. IMO, we need a third alternative in between opt-out and opt-in. The first doesn't sufficiently respect individuals' right to privacy, the second falls apart in a kind of inverse tragedy of the commons. As far as I know the only possible alternative is forced-choice: while setting up the device you should have to read a short statement about what it can do and the positives / negatives, and choose whether you want to enable that feature. I imagine many people working at Amazon do feel that this feature provides value to people without impacting privacy. It's effectively a very low bitrate VPN to the Amazon cloud for the purpose of controlling IOT devices. As far as mesh networks go, that's pretty unintrusive and certainly provides value to some customers, even though I agree that making it opt-out is unacceptable.
- turdnagel 5y agoI could see working on Sidewalk as kind of a dream if you have no morals. A mesh network you can turn on with a flip of a switch, with millions of devices across the world? Seems really cool, if you don't care about privacy or security. But if you do - and we should - it's a disaster.
- josho 5y agoOn the flip side I would love it if everyones wifi routers had a second SSID that was open to the general public. Why the hell aren’t we making it easy to share our home bandwidth with friends, family, and strangers needing a few mb of data? If this makes that acceptable again then I’m all in.
- Spivak 5y agoI think it’s more that it’s done largely without asking. I think HN would love for mesh networks to catch on but only if people choose to participate.
- bluefirebrand 5y agoIt's super easy to share my home bandwidth with my friends and family, I give them my password. I have no interest in supplying bandwidth on my home network to strangers or neighbours.
- system2 5y agoThat's it. I am unplugging all amazon devices now.
- surround 5y agoA thread from last year describing this tactic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22798118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22798118 Stack overflow’s TOS has a binding arbitration clause, [1] despite overwhelming user feedback to the contrary. [2] Y Combinator’s TOS has an arbitration clause. [3] This also applies to Hacker News. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public https://stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public [2] https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/309756 https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/309756 [3] https://www.ycombinator.com/legal/ https://www.ycombinator.com/legal/
- foxhill 5y agocould you imagine any orginisation just walking up to almost every home in the country and presuming they had the right to "a very small portion" of your property, unless you went through some steps to explicitly opt out? imagine they paid for their own infra to do this. how much would that cost? in this light, is sidewalk not theft? amazon, if you want to use my internet - for whichever distopic future plans you may have - you can pay me for it. it will not be cheap.
- Spivak 5y agoI agree with the spirit of this but precedent doesn’t really agree with you because well… ads, analytics, telemetry, drm, etc.. These are all things that use your computing resources for someone else’s benefit. This is the culture we’ve created in tech. There is a presumption that access implies blanket authorization — it’s the core of the hacker spirit, perpetuated through ToS’s, and protected at every legal challenge because restrictions to this idea are seen as overbearing regulation and stifling innovation. I’ve always wished for regulation that required companies to have to request permission to access data and computing resources for a specific purpose and require that be opt-out by default. Like apps can request contacts for the purpose of looking up friends who use your service and be legally barred for using it for anything else.
- bcrosby95 5y agoSo I gotta install their piece of shit apps to opt out of this when all I use my Alexa for is a kitchen timer? Figures.
- GreenWatermelon 5y agoAt some point I'll probably be making all my Home embedded devices. A server to provide processing power for my devices running small python scripts. I wish Dumb TVs weren't basically dead at this point...
- bobthechef 5y agoIncidentally, how do people working at Amazon and other FAANGs justify their cooperation or even direct role in BigTech's onward march toward total control and saturation and its use of abusive and coercive practices? I'm sure many of them frequent HN. I'm sure many on HN would like to hear what they have to say.
- InitialLastName 5y ago1) It's green and smells like paper 2) [This is also true of military-industrial work] they get to solve all the best problems
- anaganisk 5y agoAll the outrage here seems funny for me, many people here work for tech who are "pioneers" in data sniffing. They're all enablers in their own companies, but get offended when another company does it. They just become silent watchers. I once had a argument with a googler who said. We think a lot before doing something, so what we do is always the best. Results are always like something like above. We in the tech zone have some weird arrogance.
- derekp7 5y agoQuestion -- I'm assuming most ISPs have something in their terms that prohibit a customer from sharing the connection. So with Amazon inducing a violation of customer terms of service, I wonder if ISPs will go after the customers, or go directly after Amazon for triggering the violations?
- Aissen 5y agoIf the traffic is tunnelled, then customers aren't really sharing their IP address, and undetectable at the network level. What remains is a purely legal question.
- batmaniam 5y ago> Users can disable Sidewalk in the settings section of the Alexa or Ring apps, but have until 8 June to do so. After that, if they have taken no action, the network will be turned on and their devices will become “Sidewalk Bridges”. Wait so what if a user buys Alexa after June 8? Are they automatically enrolled into this mass wireless sharing program with no way out?
- methodin 5y agoAnyone know what happens if you don't have a device that supports Sidewalk (I have a really old Alexa) but want to opt out for the future? I don't see the Sidewalk option on the Alexa app.
- bernardv 5y agoAnother disaster waiting to happen. Time to cap the Amazon’s and Googles at the knees.
- jkaplan 5y agoCan someone elaborate on the privacy concerns (e.g. with Amazon "becoming a pseudo-ISP")? It seems like most (if not all) of the network use would be Amazon devices anyway, which is data they already have. Additionally, as far as I know, Amazon isn't really in the business of selling ads or customer data, so they seem like they'd be relatively trustworthy (compared with, say Google, who's entire business is based off of selling ads, and also literally sell routers.) Is the concern just the threat that they could abuse this data? Is it just general "big company getting even bigger / having more data is bad" sentiment? Genuinely curious. (The security concerns make sense to me -- most people and businesses assume their home network is closed, and this theoretically opens an attack vector. Asking specifically about privacy.)
- forengi 5y agoIf you buy a Helium hotspot you can get paid crypto (HNT token) to provide the same service Amazon is extracting from your Alexa for free
- londons_explore 5y agoEveryone shares the LTE network... And nobody cares. The fact you pay $90/month and someone else who pays just $40/month might be taking some of your bandwidth probably hadn't even crossed your mind. Yet ask people to share WiFi and suddenly its totally unacceptable. "This is my bandwidth, I paid for it, nobody else can have any!"
- kwdc 5y agoThe talking hockey puck in the corner is becoming even more problematic. One week? Why the deadline? At all? They do seem like they're in a hurry. For something that is meant to help and apparently put smiles on our faces it does seem like high pressure. Perhaps its less about the smiles then? Maybe not about the helping either.
- frumper 5y agoIt's not a deadline, you can opt-out after it launches. The date is just when it becomes active. I'm not sure when it was first announced, but it wasn't today. I opt-ed out a few days ago when I saw it in the news. I think it's just making the news rounds because it's so close to the launch.
- peter303 5y agoAlso comcast: they assign 1/5 your router to xfinitywifi. Theoretically you can opt of sharing. But they always turn sharing back on after a while.
- ddmma 5y agoThis takes me to the next chapter of the Echo device with other firmware on it. /eg: https://community.mycroft.ai/t/hacking-alexa-or-google-devices-to-install-mycroft/5666/4 https://community.mycroft.ai/t/hacking-alexa-or-google-devic...
- amasty 5y agohttps://amasty.com/ https://amasty.com/
- anaganisk 5y agoI wonder how would AWS feel if OEM's of the data center devices decide to share AWS's very costly bandwidth to proxy their other clients data. Imagine the outrage by Amazon. Imagine Volvo or any truck manufacturers decide to ship their other client's packages, using Amazons fleet (next day delivery for every service) Thats how this feels to me. The nerve on Amazon to push this shit after people bought the devices already and to make it opt-out. What are the devs at there smoking.