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France's 18-year-olds given €300 culture pass

146 points by longdefeat 5y ago

nefitty 5y ago
I know artists and entertainers have been struggling, but this method seems more effective to me than the government deciding which artists get money. Let individuals, not institutions, decide what culture they value.
- seibelj 5y ago
  But then what would hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats do all day?
- gumby 5y ago
  There should be a mix -- government should be able to take the long view; this only addresses things at the very end (e.g. once the exhibition has been mounted)
  - thatguy0900 5y ago
    Maybe some government sponsored patreon?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  You're assuming that they haven't found some backhanded way to restrict the money to approved culture or high culture expenditures only. I'd be very surprised if you could use this pass to attend whatever entertainment/sporting events the French consider low class. Either you're too naive or I'm too cynical. But at least one of our assumptions is wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    As a sibling commentor pointed out, you can use it for everything and you are indeed too cynical.
  - tomcooks 5y ago
    What does this have to do with class? Its a public project, for everyone, for whatever each person considers cultural.
- moviuro 5y ago
  I was about to say that to spend the "Pass Culture" someplace, that place will have to register and be accepted by the government. However it looks like the cultural sector is actually very broadly defined! [0] > You can propose your activities and cultural goods on the "Pass Culture". Only condition: be present on French territory. That's awesome. [0] https://pass.culture.fr/espace-acteurs-culturels/ https://pass.culture.fr/espace-acteurs-culturels/
- burkaman 5y ago
  Think of it like scientific research. Individuals fund short term research by buying products they want, governments fund long term research that nobody else will.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  It's one of the many arguments against welfare for the media industry: let the consumer decides what's worth watching.
- oboes 5y ago
  Problem is that it might be the case that this culture pass will only be spendable on government-subsidized venues. In my country there already exists culture pass programs for young/poor people, but you can only use them in big/subsidized concert venues, art galleries, cinemas and museums. You can't use it in more "underground" venues/events which are too small or focused to get government grants, and in my opinion those are very important to culture as well. Still better than nothing of course.
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
  Well, this is a complex question and I must say that I disagree wholeheartedly. So I live in Poland and I’ve studied film production. We were thoroughly walked through how films are financed by our national film institute and from what I understand our system was modeled after everybody else in the EU, so it’s a good example. And other types of art are financed similarly albeit with differences. The way it works is that the film institute is financed each year with a legally mandatory payment made by media companies. I’m talking cable tv channels and the like. However as of late also VOD platforms such as Netflix must chip in (this is not taxpayer money!!!). This ball of money is then split and directed towards strengthening film culture - independent cinemas, festivals, film productions. Filmmaker-producers then petition for chunks of this money with applications in which they must demonstrate that they have found funding from other sources (usually half), as well as acquiring preliminary interest from distributors. The institute runs this process by employing veteran filmmakers, artists, as well as academia and curators - people who have a proven track record. These committees decide, in a transparent process of deliberation, which productions from the ones submitted, they believe, are the most promising artistically and are most feasible. This creates an ecosystem in which artists and producers are incentivized to focus on impressing those who know something about art and on ideas which have real potential in winning festival awards, not just box-office results. It’s bureaucratic, yes, but it works. The flip side is that when individuals are the only ones to decide what culture they value, only the most idiotic super-productions from abroad will win. And money spent on those will be literally siphoned off to California - this is the real reason why Hollywood became so strong after WWII - total domination of foreign film markets. Actually, for a period of time this allowed the U.S. to culturally colonize large parts of the world, and continues today with SV. As you would imagine in a longer term this slowly strangles the local film environment. If everyone just wants to see Star Wars, producers back out of financing riskier local projects and cinema owners turn risk down for fear of upsetting Mickey. Now, I agree with this idea of giving people a culture allowance - culture should absolutely not be only decided by crusty veterans and “experts”. And 19 year olds often might not normally have the money to vote at the box office. Being a cinema-goer is an identity, a habit, something that has to be fostered and encouraged to exist early on. And it positively affects people’s mental well-being. These kinds of incentives are great to hear about. But also France already has an incredibly strong ecosystem for financing art and a resilient culture of embracing domestic creators. When I compare all this to the barren “free-market” corporate wasteland in the US I’m just saddened. An average family has to pay through the nose for an extremely limited selection, to then be bombarded with product advertising. It’s just monopoly power at it’s worst and it’s culturally debilitating. And when you visit a European Fest, especially one of the big five it just blows your mind that in fact, literally thousands of amazing films are made, but they’re simply locked out of mainstream distribution. The thing about art is that often you might not even know you will like it before being exposed to it. Customer doesn’t always know what’s best, and blindly following audience desires creates a shallow culture.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
"19 year olds on twitter unhappy" is a ridiculous and unnecessary angle to add to this story.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Polling Twitter for gripes is the easiest possible angle to add to a story, since the journalists are already on Twitter 14 hours a day anyway.
- bondant 5y ago
  Even more ridiculous when you know that the 19 year old of 2021 were 18 year old in 2020 and they could get 500 euros with the very same "pass culture". So it's really hard to see while they would be unhappy. https://web.archive.org/web/20200521225211/https://pass.culture.fr/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200521225211/https://pass.cult... Edit: in 2020 the pass was not available in the whole country.
  - corobo 5y ago
    Wasn't there something going on in 2020 that closed all the cinemas and that?
    - bondant 5y ago
      After accessing the program, one has two years to spend the money, so up to 2022 for people who got it in 2020.
      - corobo 5y ago
        Ah. I wish I'd fully investigated more before commenting then, what I said was silly
- lancebeet 5y ago
  Why's that? 18 year olds are graduating secondary education this summer and now they have more money to spend in a society that's rapidly opening up. 19 year olds graduated last year, possibly the worst time to do so (especially given the strict lockdown in France), and they get nothing. Life obviously isn't fair but I can't help but feel for the 19 year olds.
ape4 5y ago
I like it. Also very French, n'est-ce pas?
- tomcooks 5y ago
  It's an Italian thing, porco dio.
kome 5y ago
Also Italy has a similar policy[1] since years, €500 'cultural bonus': https://www.thebookseller.com/news/italys-18yos-receive-500-cultural-bonus-426366 https://www.thebookseller.com/news/italys-18yos-receive-500-... [1] https://www.18app.italia.it https://www.18app.italia.it
minikites 5y ago
Just because arts and culture can't be measured in GDP doesn't mean they're not important. Measuring everything in economic outcomes is harmful to humanity and society. Currency is necessary, but it shouldn't be the only way to value individuals or their activities.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  In the case of France, it's culture is a pretty good chunk of the country's GDP (indirectly via tourism).
- odyssey7 5y ago
  And yet, this will stimulate the culture sector by giving 18-year-olds demand that contributes to gdp.
- Bost 5y ago
  Yeah, everyone claims culture is very important! Except when the hard times come by - enter Corona - and you simply throw culture overboard. Just like that, as we've seen it. So much about the importance of culture. And now imagine we'd have a proper hard times. Like war, famine and plague combined.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Who said that? France is one of the few southern European countries that actively sponsors culture and artists, in my opinion better than anyone else.
joshuaheard 5y ago
I lived in France for several years, and I find it somewhat amusing how protective France is of their culture. They limit the number of foreign restaurant chains like McDonalds and Chipotle. They are protective of their language. The French dinner meal ("repas") is a UNESCO World Heritage Cultural Landmark. This "culture pass" is consistent with the French people's love of all things French.
- Thaxll 5y ago
  You should see Québec.
  - jandrese 5y ago
    I was going to say the Canadian government goes to great lengths to insure that their culture doesn't become completely Americanized.
    - jedberg 5y ago
      Well, the provincial government in Quebec. The rest of Canada is pretty Americanized.
      - jandrese 5y ago
        Even the national government has rules like requiring a minimum percentage of the airwaves be devoted to Canadian content.
        jedberg 5y ago
        Sure, but that's because they had to build a coalition government with the MPs from Quebec. :)
      - the_lonely_road 5y ago
        Globalized not Americanized. Considering all of the Canadians in Hollywood and on the music charts in America how exactly do you define Americanized anyway? Don’t you have a ton of European/Asian originated things in your local culture too like we do down here in America? I love IKEA and drive there in my Japanese car. I cut my fingernails every week with a great set of German tools (Wusthof or something). Tonight we’re going to watch Train to Busan peninsula on Amazon (Korean movie) because I love zombie flicks and heard good things (the first one was good!).
cunidev 5y ago
Italy has had this for a few years now (people born from 1998 onwards, https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/italy-s-18app-initiative-gifts-18-year-olds-500-for-culturally-enriching-activities-like-reading-museum-visits-and-concerts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/italy-s-1...): €500 to be spent on books, music and cultural events, so even looking at the app idea and graphics I would guess this is where it was inspired from. Overall, I would say it was well-used considering the problem our country has with "free money" initiatives, although I definitely met some people who tried to "cheat the system" to some (smaller) extent, e.g. by using the voucher to get free high-end Kindles in bookstores. Also, about 40% of purchases (if I recall the stats correctly) were made on Amazon, Spotify or other "big tech" corporations, meaning that while it gave a boost to the smaller economy, local businesses did not get from it as much as one could expect.
- bill38 5y ago
  The french government openly recognize they got the idea from Italy.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  23 years is a solid dataset. Thanks
  - deepserket 5y ago
    they started in 2016
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      I totally misread the 1998 above.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Well used? There were plenty of tricks and companies doing shady things with the money. When it was used within the rules, youngsters were using it to go to the movies or buy music online. I know of some tricks from friends of friends and you can find a few newspapers articles about the bonus being used to buy playstations and other electronics or converted in cash (500€ bonus -> 300€ cash). If there is a rule, it will be circumvented. Italy and France should think about stopping taxing young people so much, instead of wasting public money in this way.
fridif 5y ago
They don't need culture, they need challenging and interesting constructive work, such as computer programming in a low barrier to entry environment. Unfortunately for them, it is not easy to start a business anymore.
- Bayart 5y ago
  >They don't need culture Everybody needs culture, and few people « need » programming beyond those with a a natural disposition for that sort of activity. And I don't know how that's a point relevant at all the subject of the thread.
  - Bost 5y ago
    > Everybody needs culture And therefore, all the cinemas, concerts, theatres, museums etc. are closed. For more than a year. Uhm.
- redleader55 5y ago
  To clarify your point, with which I agree - without a good work environment which promotes excellence and the development of the country through industry and technology, there will be no one to support the art in a few years. Having a passion for art and culture is not enough if you don't have the means to promote, consume and sponsor it yourself.
  - jamil7 5y ago
    Why would this program prohibit these 18 year olds from excelling in the areas of industry and technology?
    - redleader55 5y ago
      No one said this measure prevents them. What I'm saying is that the work climate in France, which the government could influence, doesn't allow for excellence. A proof of this is the obvious lack of high tech companies from France. There is also no startup scene, there are no FAANGs, no unicorns that were sold for billions of dollars/euros, nothing like that. On the other hand there are a lot of french engineers outside France doing wonderful work.
timwaagh 5y ago
These kinds of things make me angry. Lots of good French workers paid for those passes and will not get to enjoy the benefits because they aren't 18. I'd say if my country ever does this I will migrate to a worse place. Except that would be a lie. Hopefully they won't though.
- bigmattystyles 5y ago
  Plus, from the article, I got the impression that the government will dictate what it can be spent on. I’m skeptical that for instance, Muslim art by French artists will be seen as French by whatever committee decides what is French. But I haven’t lived in France in 30 years. I lived in the very north almost Belgium and, though I was a child, attitudes at the time were definitely not inclusive. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
  - jcelerier 5y ago
    you can use the money to buy any kind of culture-related thing, any book, movie, etc from any country
    - bigmattystyles 5y ago
      But the article says the platform must be French for instance. So it’s not quite anything.
      - jcelerier 5y ago
        ... sure, but most french platforms / shops have media from everywhere
  - tomcooks 5y ago
    When you build colonies in the Muslim world how do you expect Muslims not to be part of your culture? And what does Muslim art have to do with this, when Muslims are the 5% of French population? Do you think French culture should be inherently Catholic (~40%)? Or atheist/agnostic (~40%). Moreover, if you re read the article I think you'll see that you can spend the bonus as you like.
WanderPanda 5y ago
MMT unfolding
- imtringued 5y ago
  It's financed by debt.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    And it finances consumption of products/events that are subject to VAT, sold by companies who pay taxes and employ people, who paid taxes who won’t be a cost for the country if they lose their job … Yes it’s debt. But its way cheaper than it sounds once the taxes go back and it’s an investment into society and employment.
mellosouls 5y ago
The pass can be used for tickets to the cinema, museum and theatre, or to buy books, art materials, dance courses and instruments or an online subscription. Am I being cynical in thinking the "culture" they use it on will be dominated by cinema and online and streaming stuff? This sounds like a good initiative but I am not sure how helpful it is bundling in theatre, museum etc with more mass-market-friendly entertainment options. I note the classic French prohibition on some of the more American (ie. popular) digital choices though.
- my_usernam3 5y ago
  I do think you're being a bit overly cynical. Many kids will find a way to liquidate their money and buy cannabis. I know this, because that's what I would have done. However, unlike software engineering, policy shouldn't be made to cover all the corner cases.
- dfxm12 5y ago
  I think you're just being cynical in thinking that it matters. As much as this is meant to promote French culture, it's seems like it's more meant to just give kids some money to spend on recreational stuff they might not otherwise be able to enjoy.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  I totally agree with you, same thing happened in Italy and I believe that a state should sponsor "good" culture, especially when they use public money to do that. But then again, I don't think I'd like to see how a state that chooses which culture is good and bad develops, let alone live in it. Maybe the trick is to give this kind of money to people that are a bit older than 18? For sure I'd push for the bonus to be used on local culture, and not foreign .
southerntofu 5y ago
Hypocrits. French authorities are enemies of culture (unless culture means big-budget productions). About a decade ago they passed HADOPI law which outlawed "missecurising your Internet access" (which obviously means nothing) because that's the only legal loophole they could find to fine people for ALLEGEDLY downloading protected torrents. That is despite the fact that a serious study ordered by HADOPI itself showed that sharing cultural goods for free had significant positive impact on cultural commerce as well. More local authorities are constantly harassing or outright closing down artistic spaces (not the fancy ones for bourgeois) like in Toulouse where MixArt Myrys in Toulouse which is also home to a local hackerspace and non-profit Internet Service Provider (tetalab and tetaneutral respectively). And as somebody pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this culture pass used to be 500€ previously. All in all, as a french person i dare say, fuck this government (and any other, really).
- sofixa 5y ago
  The Hadopi bullshit was under an entirely different government, you can't really use it as an argument to fuck the current one. What they're doit here is good and a net positive. And local authorities are that, local, so not really the same guys.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > you can't really use it as an argument to fuck the current one. Except this government and the previous ones have mostly EXACTLY the same policies on pretty much everything (more police/business, less healthcare/education), including the copyright mafia. The lobbies are still the same people, too. This new government has also implied HADOPI didn't go far enough and they'd make a new law to further criminalize video streaming consumption (HADOPI only criminalizes the assumption of p2p sharing on Bittorrent protocol specifically). > What they're doit here is good and a net positive. What they're doing here is putting a bandaid on a cancer. Abolish copyright, redistribute wealth massively, and invest in emancipatory education (alla Montessori) and you'll get much better results. But they're not interested in making things better for the people, only in diverting public money into the pockets of their business friends from the cultural sector. For that, giving away 500 credits (not actual euros) that can be used on cultural contents approved of by the industry/government (not independent artists) is fairly effective.
sybercecurity 5y ago
The US does something similar: Those children enrolled in the fourth or fifth grade of any school can get free passes to National Parks: https://www.nps.gov/kids/fifthgrade.htm https://www.nps.gov/kids/fifthgrade.htm Though it is basically "kids get in free" since other family members have to pay and you don't expect too many 10-11 year olds to travel to parks themselves.
- codingdave 5y ago
  The rest of the family is also free, as long as the 4th grader is with you.
easytiger 5y ago
France's money machine go Brrrrrrrr. €56bn in interest payments a year alone and 106% debt to gdp. Massive exposure to Italian debt crisis. It's not going to end well
- baud147258 5y ago
  though it's pennies compared to the current level of spending
- imtringued 5y ago
  debt to % gdp is a meaningless number, it literally means nothing. Real interest rates are negative. You're actually doing the savers a favor by borrowing the money.
jokoon 5y ago
Im so proud of my country, in so many ways. France is a nuclear military power, and I think it is one if not the most progressive country of the 5 who have a permanent seat at the UN security council. I'm quite curious which countries of the EU has a VAT like France. France also exports the most brainpower in math and tech.
treve 5y ago
In the Netherlands apparently this is a thing since the 60's: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultureel_Jongeren_Paspoort https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultureel_Jongeren_Paspoort
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
Just make the museums free. Works great for London.
- baud147258 5y ago
  most museums in France are already free to people under 25
- Raed667 5y ago
  Museums in france are usually free if you live in the same town (no matter what age), and almost always free or at extremely cheap price if you're student or under 25.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    Here's the list of Paris museum that are free (always or on certain dates): https://www.parisinfo.com/decouvrir-paris/guides-thematiques/paris-gratuit/musees-et-monuments-gratuits-a-paris/les-musees-et-monuments-gratuits-a-paris https://www.parisinfo.com/decouvrir-paris/guides-thematiques... (in EN: https://www.familinparis.fr/en/musee-gratuit-a-paris/ https://www.familinparis.fr/en/musee-gratuit-a-paris/) All those owned by Paris city are free to all, always: https://www.parismusees.paris.fr/en https://www.parismusees.paris.fr/en
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Free museums for everyone once a month, or everyday if you're skint.
lostmsu 5y ago
Are computer games excluded intentionally?
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Implying you cannot buy games with the bonus and just have the cashier ring them as books or "culture bonus products"
sharken 5y ago
In Denmark the cost of testing for Covid amounts to 60.000.000 DKK daily, that is about 8M euros. If that money was a gift to all 18 year olds in Denmark, each would receive 120 euros a day. The testing effort will go on at least until August, each 18 year old would then be 28.800 euros richer.

146 points by longdefeat 5y ago

I know artists and entertainers have been struggling, but this method seems more effective to me than the government deciding which artists get money. Let individuals, not institutions, decide what culture they value.

seibelj 5y ago
But then what would hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats do all day?
gumby 5y ago
There should be a mix -- government should be able to take the long view; this only addresses things at the very end (e.g. once the exhibition has been mounted)
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  Maybe some government sponsored patreon?
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
You're assuming that they haven't found some backhanded way to restrict the money to approved culture or high culture expenditures only. I'd be very surprised if you could use this pass to attend whatever entertainment/sporting events the French consider low class. Either you're too naive or I'm too cynical. But at least one of our assumptions is wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
- sofixa 5y ago
  As a sibling commentor pointed out, you can use it for everything and you are indeed too cynical.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  What does this have to do with class? Its a public project, for everyone, for whatever each person considers cultural.
moviuro 5y ago
I was about to say that to spend the "Pass Culture" someplace, that place will have to register and be accepted by the government. However it looks like the cultural sector is actually very broadly defined! [0] > You can propose your activities and cultural goods on the "Pass Culture". Only condition: be present on French territory. That's awesome. [0] https://pass.culture.fr/espace-acteurs-culturels/ https://pass.culture.fr/espace-acteurs-culturels/
burkaman 5y ago
Think of it like scientific research. Individuals fund short term research by buying products they want, governments fund long term research that nobody else will.
908B64B197 5y ago
It's one of the many arguments against welfare for the media industry: let the consumer decides what's worth watching.
oboes 5y ago
Problem is that it might be the case that this culture pass will only be spendable on government-subsidized venues. In my country there already exists culture pass programs for young/poor people, but you can only use them in big/subsidized concert venues, art galleries, cinemas and museums. You can't use it in more "underground" venues/events which are too small or focused to get government grants, and in my opinion those are very important to culture as well. Still better than nothing of course.
scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
Well, this is a complex question and I must say that I disagree wholeheartedly. So I live in Poland and I’ve studied film production. We were thoroughly walked through how films are financed by our national film institute and from what I understand our system was modeled after everybody else in the EU, so it’s a good example. And other types of art are financed similarly albeit with differences. The way it works is that the film institute is financed each year with a legally mandatory payment made by media companies. I’m talking cable tv channels and the like. However as of late also VOD platforms such as Netflix must chip in (this is not taxpayer money!!!). This ball of money is then split and directed towards strengthening film culture - independent cinemas, festivals, film productions. Filmmaker-producers then petition for chunks of this money with applications in which they must demonstrate that they have found funding from other sources (usually half), as well as acquiring preliminary interest from distributors. The institute runs this process by employing veteran filmmakers, artists, as well as academia and curators - people who have a proven track record. These committees decide, in a transparent process of deliberation, which productions from the ones submitted, they believe, are the most promising artistically and are most feasible. This creates an ecosystem in which artists and producers are incentivized to focus on impressing those who know something about art and on ideas which have real potential in winning festival awards, not just box-office results. It’s bureaucratic, yes, but it works. The flip side is that when individuals are the only ones to decide what culture they value, only the most idiotic super-productions from abroad will win. And money spent on those will be literally siphoned off to California - this is the real reason why Hollywood became so strong after WWII - total domination of foreign film markets. Actually, for a period of time this allowed the U.S. to culturally colonize large parts of the world, and continues today with SV. As you would imagine in a longer term this slowly strangles the local film environment. If everyone just wants to see Star Wars, producers back out of financing riskier local projects and cinema owners turn risk down for fear of upsetting Mickey. Now, I agree with this idea of giving people a culture allowance - culture should absolutely not be only decided by crusty veterans and “experts”. And 19 year olds often might not normally have the money to vote at the box office. Being a cinema-goer is an identity, a habit, something that has to be fostered and encouraged to exist early on. And it positively affects people’s mental well-being. These kinds of incentives are great to hear about. But also France already has an incredibly strong ecosystem for financing art and a resilient culture of embracing domestic creators. When I compare all this to the barren “free-market” corporate wasteland in the US I’m just saddened. An average family has to pay through the nose for an extremely limited selection, to then be bombarded with product advertising. It’s just monopoly power at it’s worst and it’s culturally debilitating. And when you visit a European Fest, especially one of the big five it just blows your mind that in fact, literally thousands of amazing films are made, but they’re simply locked out of mainstream distribution. The thing about art is that often you might not even know you will like it before being exposed to it. Customer doesn’t always know what’s best, and blindly following audience desires creates a shallow culture.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

"19 year olds on twitter unhappy" is a ridiculous and unnecessary angle to add to this story.

bpodgursky 5y ago
Polling Twitter for gripes is the easiest possible angle to add to a story, since the journalists are already on Twitter 14 hours a day anyway.
bondant 5y ago
Even more ridiculous when you know that the 19 year old of 2021 were 18 year old in 2020 and they could get 500 euros with the very same "pass culture". So it's really hard to see while they would be unhappy. https://web.archive.org/web/20200521225211/https://pass.culture.fr/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200521225211/https://pass.cult... Edit: in 2020 the pass was not available in the whole country.
- corobo 5y ago
  Wasn't there something going on in 2020 that closed all the cinemas and that?
  - bondant 5y ago
    After accessing the program, one has two years to spend the money, so up to 2022 for people who got it in 2020.
    - corobo 5y ago
      Ah. I wish I'd fully investigated more before commenting then, what I said was silly
lancebeet 5y ago
Why's that? 18 year olds are graduating secondary education this summer and now they have more money to spend in a society that's rapidly opening up. 19 year olds graduated last year, possibly the worst time to do so (especially given the strict lockdown in France), and they get nothing. Life obviously isn't fair but I can't help but feel for the 19 year olds.

ape4 5y ago

I like it. Also very French, n'est-ce pas?

tomcooks 5y ago
It's an Italian thing, porco dio.

kome 5y ago

Also Italy has a similar policy[1] since years, €500 'cultural bonus': https://www.thebookseller.com/news/italys-18yos-receive-500-cultural-bonus-426366 https://www.thebookseller.com/news/italys-18yos-receive-500-... [1] https://www.18app.italia.it https://www.18app.italia.it

minikites 5y ago

Just because arts and culture can't be measured in GDP doesn't mean they're not important. Measuring everything in economic outcomes is harmful to humanity and society. Currency is necessary, but it shouldn't be the only way to value individuals or their activities.

908B64B197 5y ago
In the case of France, it's culture is a pretty good chunk of the country's GDP (indirectly via tourism).
odyssey7 5y ago
And yet, this will stimulate the culture sector by giving 18-year-olds demand that contributes to gdp.
Bost 5y ago
Yeah, everyone claims culture is very important! Except when the hard times come by - enter Corona - and you simply throw culture overboard. Just like that, as we've seen it. So much about the importance of culture. And now imagine we'd have a proper hard times. Like war, famine and plague combined.
tomcooks 5y ago
Who said that? France is one of the few southern European countries that actively sponsors culture and artists, in my opinion better than anyone else.

joshuaheard 5y ago

I lived in France for several years, and I find it somewhat amusing how protective France is of their culture. They limit the number of foreign restaurant chains like McDonalds and Chipotle. They are protective of their language. The French dinner meal ("repas") is a UNESCO World Heritage Cultural Landmark. This "culture pass" is consistent with the French people's love of all things French.

Thaxll 5y ago
You should see Québec.
- jandrese 5y ago
  I was going to say the Canadian government goes to great lengths to insure that their culture doesn't become completely Americanized.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    Well, the provincial government in Quebec. The rest of Canada is pretty Americanized.
    - jandrese 5y ago
      Even the national government has rules like requiring a minimum percentage of the airwaves be devoted to Canadian content.
      - jedberg 5y ago
        Sure, but that's because they had to build a coalition government with the MPs from Quebec. :)
    - the_lonely_road 5y ago
      Globalized not Americanized. Considering all of the Canadians in Hollywood and on the music charts in America how exactly do you define Americanized anyway? Don’t you have a ton of European/Asian originated things in your local culture too like we do down here in America? I love IKEA and drive there in my Japanese car. I cut my fingernails every week with a great set of German tools (Wusthof or something). Tonight we’re going to watch Train to Busan peninsula on Amazon (Korean movie) because I love zombie flicks and heard good things (the first one was good!).

cunidev 5y ago

Italy has had this for a few years now (people born from 1998 onwards, https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/italy-s-18app-initiative-gifts-18-year-olds-500-for-culturally-enriching-activities-like-reading-museum-visits-and-concerts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/italy-s-1...): €500 to be spent on books, music and cultural events, so even looking at the app idea and graphics I would guess this is where it was inspired from. Overall, I would say it was well-used considering the problem our country has with "free money" initiatives, although I definitely met some people who tried to "cheat the system" to some (smaller) extent, e.g. by using the voucher to get free high-end Kindles in bookstores. Also, about 40% of purchases (if I recall the stats correctly) were made on Amazon, Spotify or other "big tech" corporations, meaning that while it gave a boost to the smaller economy, local businesses did not get from it as much as one could expect.

bill38 5y ago
The french government openly recognize they got the idea from Italy.
agumonkey 5y ago
23 years is a solid dataset. Thanks
- deepserket 5y ago
  they started in 2016
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I totally misread the 1998 above.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
Well used? There were plenty of tricks and companies doing shady things with the money. When it was used within the rules, youngsters were using it to go to the movies or buy music online. I know of some tricks from friends of friends and you can find a few newspapers articles about the bonus being used to buy playstations and other electronics or converted in cash (500€ bonus -> 300€ cash). If there is a rule, it will be circumvented. Italy and France should think about stopping taxing young people so much, instead of wasting public money in this way.

fridif 5y ago

They don't need culture, they need challenging and interesting constructive work, such as computer programming in a low barrier to entry environment. Unfortunately for them, it is not easy to start a business anymore.

Bayart 5y ago
>They don't need culture Everybody needs culture, and few people « need » programming beyond those with a a natural disposition for that sort of activity. And I don't know how that's a point relevant at all the subject of the thread.
- Bost 5y ago
  > Everybody needs culture And therefore, all the cinemas, concerts, theatres, museums etc. are closed. For more than a year. Uhm.
redleader55 5y ago
To clarify your point, with which I agree - without a good work environment which promotes excellence and the development of the country through industry and technology, there will be no one to support the art in a few years. Having a passion for art and culture is not enough if you don't have the means to promote, consume and sponsor it yourself.
- jamil7 5y ago
  Why would this program prohibit these 18 year olds from excelling in the areas of industry and technology?
  - redleader55 5y ago
    No one said this measure prevents them. What I'm saying is that the work climate in France, which the government could influence, doesn't allow for excellence. A proof of this is the obvious lack of high tech companies from France. There is also no startup scene, there are no FAANGs, no unicorns that were sold for billions of dollars/euros, nothing like that. On the other hand there are a lot of french engineers outside France doing wonderful work.

timwaagh 5y ago

These kinds of things make me angry. Lots of good French workers paid for those passes and will not get to enjoy the benefits because they aren't 18. I'd say if my country ever does this I will migrate to a worse place. Except that would be a lie. Hopefully they won't though.

bigmattystyles 5y ago
Plus, from the article, I got the impression that the government will dictate what it can be spent on. I’m skeptical that for instance, Muslim art by French artists will be seen as French by whatever committee decides what is French. But I haven’t lived in France in 30 years. I lived in the very north almost Belgium and, though I was a child, attitudes at the time were definitely not inclusive. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
- jcelerier 5y ago
  you can use the money to buy any kind of culture-related thing, any book, movie, etc from any country
  - bigmattystyles 5y ago
    But the article says the platform must be French for instance. So it’s not quite anything.
    - jcelerier 5y ago
      ... sure, but most french platforms / shops have media from everywhere
- tomcooks 5y ago
  When you build colonies in the Muslim world how do you expect Muslims not to be part of your culture? And what does Muslim art have to do with this, when Muslims are the 5% of French population? Do you think French culture should be inherently Catholic (~40%)? Or atheist/agnostic (~40%). Moreover, if you re read the article I think you'll see that you can spend the bonus as you like.

WanderPanda 5y ago

MMT unfolding

imtringued 5y ago
It's financed by debt.
- pjerem 5y ago
  And it finances consumption of products/events that are subject to VAT, sold by companies who pay taxes and employ people, who paid taxes who won’t be a cost for the country if they lose their job … Yes it’s debt. But its way cheaper than it sounds once the taxes go back and it’s an investment into society and employment.

mellosouls 5y ago

The pass can be used for tickets to the cinema, museum and theatre, or to buy books, art materials, dance courses and instruments or an online subscription. Am I being cynical in thinking the "culture" they use it on will be dominated by cinema and online and streaming stuff? This sounds like a good initiative but I am not sure how helpful it is bundling in theatre, museum etc with more mass-market-friendly entertainment options. I note the classic French prohibition on some of the more American (ie. popular) digital choices though.

my_usernam3 5y ago
I do think you're being a bit overly cynical. Many kids will find a way to liquidate their money and buy cannabis. I know this, because that's what I would have done. However, unlike software engineering, policy shouldn't be made to cover all the corner cases.
dfxm12 5y ago
I think you're just being cynical in thinking that it matters. As much as this is meant to promote French culture, it's seems like it's more meant to just give kids some money to spend on recreational stuff they might not otherwise be able to enjoy.
tomcooks 5y ago
I totally agree with you, same thing happened in Italy and I believe that a state should sponsor "good" culture, especially when they use public money to do that. But then again, I don't think I'd like to see how a state that chooses which culture is good and bad develops, let alone live in it. Maybe the trick is to give this kind of money to people that are a bit older than 18? For sure I'd push for the bonus to be used on local culture, and not foreign .

southerntofu 5y ago

Hypocrits. French authorities are enemies of culture (unless culture means big-budget productions). About a decade ago they passed HADOPI law which outlawed "missecurising your Internet access" (which obviously means nothing) because that's the only legal loophole they could find to fine people for ALLEGEDLY downloading protected torrents. That is despite the fact that a serious study ordered by HADOPI itself showed that sharing cultural goods for free had significant positive impact on cultural commerce as well. More local authorities are constantly harassing or outright closing down artistic spaces (not the fancy ones for bourgeois) like in Toulouse where MixArt Myrys in Toulouse which is also home to a local hackerspace and non-profit Internet Service Provider (tetalab and tetaneutral respectively). And as somebody pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this culture pass used to be 500€ previously. All in all, as a french person i dare say, fuck this government (and any other, really).

sofixa 5y ago
The Hadopi bullshit was under an entirely different government, you can't really use it as an argument to fuck the current one. What they're doit here is good and a net positive. And local authorities are that, local, so not really the same guys.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > you can't really use it as an argument to fuck the current one. Except this government and the previous ones have mostly EXACTLY the same policies on pretty much everything (more police/business, less healthcare/education), including the copyright mafia. The lobbies are still the same people, too. This new government has also implied HADOPI didn't go far enough and they'd make a new law to further criminalize video streaming consumption (HADOPI only criminalizes the assumption of p2p sharing on Bittorrent protocol specifically). > What they're doit here is good and a net positive. What they're doing here is putting a bandaid on a cancer. Abolish copyright, redistribute wealth massively, and invest in emancipatory education (alla Montessori) and you'll get much better results. But they're not interested in making things better for the people, only in diverting public money into the pockets of their business friends from the cultural sector. For that, giving away 500 credits (not actual euros) that can be used on cultural contents approved of by the industry/government (not independent artists) is fairly effective.

sybercecurity 5y ago

The US does something similar: Those children enrolled in the fourth or fifth grade of any school can get free passes to National Parks: https://www.nps.gov/kids/fifthgrade.htm https://www.nps.gov/kids/fifthgrade.htm Though it is basically "kids get in free" since other family members have to pay and you don't expect too many 10-11 year olds to travel to parks themselves.

codingdave 5y ago
The rest of the family is also free, as long as the 4th grader is with you.

easytiger 5y ago

France's money machine go Brrrrrrrr. €56bn in interest payments a year alone and 106% debt to gdp. Massive exposure to Italian debt crisis. It's not going to end well

baud147258 5y ago
though it's pennies compared to the current level of spending
imtringued 5y ago
debt to % gdp is a meaningless number, it literally means nothing. Real interest rates are negative. You're actually doing the savers a favor by borrowing the money.

jokoon 5y ago

Im so proud of my country, in so many ways. France is a nuclear military power, and I think it is one if not the most progressive country of the 5 who have a permanent seat at the UN security council. I'm quite curious which countries of the EU has a VAT like France. France also exports the most brainpower in math and tech.

treve 5y ago

In the Netherlands apparently this is a thing since the 60's: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultureel_Jongeren_Paspoort https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultureel_Jongeren_Paspoort

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

Just make the museums free. Works great for London.

baud147258 5y ago
most museums in France are already free to people under 25
Raed667 5y ago
Museums in france are usually free if you live in the same town (no matter what age), and almost always free or at extremely cheap price if you're student or under 25.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Here's the list of Paris museum that are free (always or on certain dates): https://www.parisinfo.com/decouvrir-paris/guides-thematiques/paris-gratuit/musees-et-monuments-gratuits-a-paris/les-musees-et-monuments-gratuits-a-paris https://www.parisinfo.com/decouvrir-paris/guides-thematiques... (in EN: https://www.familinparis.fr/en/musee-gratuit-a-paris/ https://www.familinparis.fr/en/musee-gratuit-a-paris/) All those owned by Paris city are free to all, always: https://www.parismusees.paris.fr/en https://www.parismusees.paris.fr/en
tomcooks 5y ago
Free museums for everyone once a month, or everyday if you're skint.

lostmsu 5y ago

Are computer games excluded intentionally?

tomcooks 5y ago
Implying you cannot buy games with the bonus and just have the cashier ring them as books or "culture bonus products"

sharken 5y ago

In Denmark the cost of testing for Covid amounts to 60.000.000 DKK daily, that is about 8M euros. If that money was a gift to all 18 year olds in Denmark, each would receive 120 euros a day. The testing effort will go on at least until August, each 18 year old would then be 28.800 euros richer.