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Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4
- Klwohu 5y agoStill going to have to check it to make sure it's not producing smog when the authorities aren't watching.
- kbos87 5y agoWhat I’m really curious to see is whether or not “electric” is the single killer feature it is often positioned as. Semi-autonomous driving and overall UX are two places that Tesla is just so far ahead. I think other manufacturers will make progress, but they are likely to be slow. Electric is compelling but it’s only a small part of the overall value prop for a lot of buyers.
- eropple 5y agon=1 of course, but to me Teslas aren't compelling until they 1) are a company I want to support, 2) building a vehicle I want, at 3) a price I want to pay. They fail #1 in a bunch of entertaining ways, they don't make a vehicle that satisfies #2 either in features/size or in the absence of misfeatures like the center console or the quasi-automated car crasher, and they'd have to take a significant haircut to satisfy #3. Your mileage, of course, may vary, but right now Hyundai's Kona EV is pretty close to that in terms of features/size/battery/price, for me. It's the car I'm considering as a moderate size upgrade over my current car (a super-compact hatchback). Being electric is a significant plus to me, enough that I'm considering the upgrade even though I don't strictly need it.
- ajross 5y ago> 1) are a company I want to support Really? I mean... as opposed to which automaker? Paraphrasing Matthew Yglesias[1]: Elon Musk is a raging narcissist asshole. But he built a three-quarter-trillion dollar company that makes electric cars and solar panels. That's... objectively pretty good for all of us, right? [1] I think. Actually I can't completely remember where I read this but it definitely sounds like him.
- bpodgursky 5y agoHe did. Something like "bad tweeter, but good for the world".
- eropple 5y agoMaybe I was unclear. It's not (just) that Elon Musk is a dirtbag who sics his literally millions of stans on random people, though that's part of it; I don't think the way that he, personally, identifies and treats people is a reasonable way for a person with any measure of power to act. It's also that I don't want to support an automaker that makes cars as poorly as Tesla does. Even to this day Tesla rolls cars out to customers with stuff as simple as body panels totally hosed. And Tesla then gives buyers the run-around when they seek redress. That's when they aren't double-charging folks and making getting that redressed entirely too difficult, too. I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I said that I don't want to give them money. Tesla's shitty at making cars and shitty at customer service and I don't have a reason to buy from them either from the perspective of a purchaser or as somebody who tries to be at least reasonably ethical with the allocation of my money. As mentioned, my next car will likely be a Kona EV, where the body panels don't fall off and I have some trust in the warranty to actually be honored if I need something done.
- codezero 5y agoI agree with your points in general, the main reason I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, across models, years, features, they just have a similar look and it's boring. I wish they also offered a wide range of body modifications to add some flavor and individuality to the car.
- mhh__ 5y agoThey really do look like the mid-range car in a video game. Not bad, but just a bit too American and safe for my eyes. I'm curious what a Cybertruck will actually end up looking like since they seem to have actually gone for risky with it.
- kingsuper20 5y agoIt's worth watching Sandy Munro's youtube channel to see what the justification for the Cybertruck body shape is. I changed my mind on them after watching it. One question I never see answered is how Teslas will deal with collision repair expense once the bugs are shaken out of the insurance and bodyshop system.
- codezero 5y agoI love the cybertruck just because it's so absurd, but unfortunately I think the novelty will wear off the first time you see another cybertruck on the road.
- kingsuper20 5y ago>I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, In my eyes, practically all new cars look the same. The badging is the main way to tell them apart. On the other hand, I can tell a 1967 from a 1968 Camaro (hint: the running lights/turn signals in the grill are round vs. a rounded rectangle on non RS cars). But they always did. If you come to it with a fresh eye, most cars of a given class/size in any era are pretty similar.
- diggernet 5y agoAs a non-Tesla fan, I think the S has very nice lines. The X and 3 are ugly. As you say, they basically look like the same car, and yet are misproportioned in various ways. My theory is they spent a lot of designer time carefully iterating and refining the S, then fired all the designers. Then for X and 3, simply distorted the S design to wrap around a different car and called it good.
- jeffrallen 5y agoYour reasoning, in my head, lead me to buy a Renault Zoe, and I love it. Electric cars cannot conjuring to be luxury items if we want to convert the fleet. This is something that Tesla gets distracted on and misses: the Model 3 should have cost 50% of what it does (with the compromises to get there). The 3 is like a slightly less ostentatious S, which is a total market miss for me
- arcticfox 5y agoA total market miss for you, maybe, but it is a total market hit for the actual market as demonstrated in sales figures.
- matmatmatmat 5y agoIt's obviously very personal, but for me, electric alone is a big plus. I find it more enjoyable to drive: No transmission shifting, really smooth acceleration, quieter, and that instant-on torque is pretty nice, too.
- kingsuper20 5y agoAnother advantage in California (and likely other states) is that you get to avoid the enormous, rather useless, PITA called 'emissions inspection'.
- tpmx 5y agoI think what you're actually describing is the largely fan activist/toy (Yes, Tesla Autopilot is a toy) attitude that's common to a certain kind of Tesla owners. This is embarassing and needs to go so that responsible adults can buy EVs too.
- arcticfox 5y agoCalling Autopilot a toy seems quite exaggerated to me. I use Autopilot for ~80% of the miles I drive and I love it. I might think the same about Subaru or Cadillac or whatever if I had those, I'm not sure. But none of them are "toys".
- tpmx 5y agoThey way they market it is the reason it's a toy. This is not a novel argument in any way. In some circumstances it's a pretty good at L2 self driving. Until it isn't and it kills you if you don't pay attention.
- rsynnott 5y agoEuropean BEV sales figures would indicate that Tesla's 'autopilot' is not a huge factor; of late Tesla has generally been 3rd or 4th (behind VW and one or both of Hyundai and Renault) in most markets.
- chodeboy 5y agoIs this comment meant to be ironic? The removal of physical buttons a main cluster for the driver and the lack of a HUD are all terrible UX decisions. People believe it is all part of the grand "autonomous driving" meme but the reality is that all cars that have been purchased today are going to be used up long before level 4 autonomy is passed through the legislation.
- ajross 5y agoYeah. I literally just pulled the trigger and am waiting on delivery of a Model Y. The other vendors are at least playing in the same ballpark now. This car, and the Ford Mach-E (I refuse to call a 4-door crossover a "mustang") are both... very reasonable and justifiable purchases. Same price range. Similar (or at least close to) travel range. Similar performance. But they don't have a supercharger network. They won't have anything like Tesla's autopilot over the life of these units. The software glitz Tesla's app integration brings to the table isn't there, even if the fit and finish is probably better. It's great to see the traditional automakers getting close finally (almost a DECADE after the Model S shipped!), but... they aren't there yet. Unless you're in love with something very specific about these particular cars, Tesla remains the clear default choice.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- codetrotter 5y agoI am never buying a Volkswagen after the Volkswagen Emissions Scandal in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
- rorykoehler 5y agoThen I guess you’re never buying any European car ever again because it has since come to light that they were all at it. A bit misplaced given the electric push anyhow surely?
- rsynnott 5y agoNot just European; practically everyone who made diesel cars was at it.
- Dopameaner 5y agoI am curious. Do you happen to have a source for it?
- rsynnott 5y agoList of the main ones who got in trouble here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Fiat_Chrysler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Fiat_... And it's not like this was the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device It's really quite weird that it has become associated so closely with Volkswagen.
- kingsuper20 5y agoI naturally assume that a lot of products with computers that are subject to government testing cheat in some way. Betcha that some Energy Star appliances can detect when they are being run through a test cycle.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
- axaxs 5y agoI'm kicking around the idea of an electric car, but the ranges of these things just utterly disappoint me. With some companies offering, or planning to offer 500ish mile ranges, it would feel immediately outdated to me to throw 40k on something with a ~200 mile range. Is battery tech that different between companies, is it cost prohibitive?
- black_puppydog 5y agoI think if there was a perspective to upgrade to a more modern battery later on, that would make a huge difference for these decisions. I wonder how much the actual battery contributes to the production costs. It can't be trivial, right?
- axaxs 5y agoAbsolutely. If the battery were easily swappable, either by me or a low cost service center, AND a promise of bigger batteries was made, I'd probably bite. But as it sits, it seems like batteries are very central to the car and rather cost prohibitive to swap out.
- ortusdux 5y agoAfter swearing up and down that they would never do battery swaps, Tesla demonstrated a 90 second swap back in 2012. They held a few events in California to get enough swaps to meet ZEV benchmarks and get nearly $300mil. When they were called out they removed any reference to the program and pretended like it never happened. https://web.archive.org/web/20140331102655/http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap https://web.archive.org/web/20140331102655/http://www.teslam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Controversies
- munk-a 5y agoBattery swaps are incredibly costly for the company - those units generally cost more than 10k - sometimes as high as 20k. Given that they are the majority of the cost of the vehicle it's not a great business proposition for manufacturers to offer to replace a battery for anything less than the majority of the cost of a new vehicle which consumers simply won't go for.
- rorykoehler 5y agoI saw one in the wild last week and I am very happy to see that they look great and normal.
- mhh__ 5y agoOn the subject of styling I still find these electric cars slightly off with the plastic where the grill normally be. It just seems wrong - especially with a company like Tesla which has no design heritage to be bound to, one expects better. The Taycan doesn't have this issue at the front, and I think it's a good looking thing.
- rorykoehler 5y agoWhy would you have a grill when you don’t have any need for it?
- mhh__ 5y agoThat's my point, though, the front doesn't need to be that shape any more, do something else (i.e. what Porsche have done with the Taycan, which just tapers all the way down to the number plate).
- rorykoehler 5y agoSorry I misunderstood. Of all the recently released cars the Mercedes EQS is the only one that is obviously doing what you complain about.
- kingsuper20 5y agoBattery cooling? Cabin ventilation? A/C condenser? Front brake cooling?
- rorykoehler 5y agoThe ev car grills are aesthetic only. They are sealed.
- edhelas 5y agoSUV…
- mhh__ 5y agoHopefully (particularly from the French car companies, as they have some interesting little designs from the past to draw from) EVs can provide a kick up the arse for manufacturers to lead rather than shit out SUV after SUV - particularly given that they are using new propulsion that can't afford unnecessary weight and drag.
- redisman 5y agoI’d imagine this is mainly for the US market.
- gryzzly 5y agothe time will come when cities will stop allowing using so much public space for the sake of one person/family’s comfort.
- closeparen 5y agoI wonder what will happen to the SUV vs. car distribution when “gas guzzler” isn’t a consideration anymore. There’s still parking, of course, but most SUVs I see have the same wheelbase as their sedan counterparts. They’re just tall.
- GordonS 5y agoWouldn't the term just be swapped for something like "power pilferer"? (I'm assuming that a heavier EV will mean less miles per KWh or whatever the measure is)
- closeparen 5y agoUsing excess energy from renewable sources harms only the user's wallet, instead of the whole world.
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- mmglr 5y agoThe 1st edition is already "sold out". Reserving the AWD Pro S Gradient, a $49,675 car, is $100. So I suspect the 1st edition was around that same reservation cost. Too low. Everyone has $100 laying around. IMO reservations should be 10% msrp so that only serious buyers can make reservations.
- ajross 5y agoTesla wants $100 to reserve a car, so I'm sure that's why the value was picked. If their buyer backs out and the model is popular, they can always get full price on the car as configured anyway.
- xeromal 5y ago10% is a bit high. Would take a lot of nads to drop 5k on a car that may or may not come out in a few years. $1000 feels more like the sweet spot.
- geoman123 5y agoIt's because you can reserve with your credit card and the OEM is responsible for the transaction fee. 10% of MSRP is like $4,000 and 1-3% of that is $40-$120. When saving 1/4 of a cent is crucial at scale, you wont be happy giving up 40-120 bucks.
- Someone1234 5y agoI feel like the prices on electric vehicles are starting to become their biggest hurdle (instead of range, availability, or charging which are solved enough). If you're from California or New York, I'm sure $40K starting for this or a Model Y seems complexly within your means, but there's a large chunk of the US (by population AND land) where <$20K new sedans remain popular and "nicer" vehicles are still in the $20-$30K range (and we're talking about SUVs and other family sized vehicles rather than small sedans). People love to spam $40K US "average" while entirely ignoring that the average is a highly abusive figure containing $80K+ trucks and luxury vehicles, as well as a few $15-32K vehicles dragging that figure down. It doesn't really reflect anything useful. Go look at this map[0]. How many of "the most popular car by state" are $40K? Zero. But yet an electric is going to replace a $21K Honda Civic by 2025? Really? And I'm not dumping on the manufacturers here: From what I understand batteries remain the lion's share of an electric vehicle's total production cost (I've heard as much as $16K/vehicle). So this isn't profiteering, this is the tech not yet being ready price-wise for the mass adoption everyone seems to believe will come soon. Worse still as electric vehicles become more popular the rare earth metals that seemingly remain popular within the batteries may increase in cost offsetting our future reductions. To be clear: I want to own an electric vehicle. I'd trade my current Subaru Outback ($27K) in tomorrow if I could buy a comparable electric. But those start in the $40K range (and honestly the cheapest trim is just a hero model, they don't intend to sell many, and blackmail buyers with missing basic features accordingly). [0] https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-by-state-2020/ https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-by-state-202...
- skybrian 5y agoYes, very true, though prices will come down as volume goes up. We should all hope that these new models are a success and the prices drop. Though, if you're budget-conscious, why buy a new car at all? Used cars are a better deal. Leave the new cars for people with more money.
- Klwohu 5y agoThe range is the issue, the "suburban and rural retards" probably have more expensive vehicles than NY and San Fran dwellers. But nobody wants a car that can't run on gas unless you live on an Interstate corridor, the 101, etc.
- Hamuko 5y agoWhen are we getting good looking electric cars? The only good looking EV thus far is the Honda e but it has issues in pretty much every other department.
- I_am_tiberius 5y agoYou mean "Voltswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4".
- gaoshan 5y agoThis looks like the first vehicle of this sort to even approach affordable (with the $7,500 tax credit it will cost less than a high end Honda CR-V). The fact that it is also well regarded in the reviews I have seen make this the first electric vehicle I could consider buying myself. Excited that something as relatively attainable as this is reaching the market.
- dahfizz 5y agoA base tesla model3 is cheaper than a base ID.4. It does look like the ID.4 will be cheaper after the tax credits, but not dramatically so.
- gaoshan 5y agoRight but the model 3 is a sedan while the ID.4 is a compact SUV. Size wise this vehicle is more on par with the Tesla Model Y, not the 3.
- Hamuko 5y agoIt's not. The ID.4 is 4.6 metres long. the Model 3 is 4.7 metres long. The Model X is 5.0 metres long. The ID.4 is 1.85 metres wide, the Model 3 is 1.85 metres wide and the Model X is 2.00 metres wide. The ID.4 is 1.64 metres tall, the Model 3 is 1.44 metres and the Model X is 1.68 metres. The Model 3 has about 425 litres of trunk space, the ID.4 has 540 litres of trunk space, and the Model X has like 1400 litres with five seats up (this was really hard to source). Seats folded the Model 3 has like 1140 litres, the ID.4 has like 1575 litres and the Model X has about 2000 litres.
- gaoshan 5y agoI meant the Y, not the X. Brain fart on my part. Sorry you did all the work to look into the details.
- xeromal 5y agoProbably more of a Model Y than a Model X,
- merb 5y agowhy does it says that it launches?! It launched last december/this years january in europe. heck, they even delivered some of them already. did it launch that late in usa? I tought it should launch in february in the usa.
- brokenintuition 5y agoI think deliveries from reservations in the US started in March. I bought one a few weeks ago because some dealers have gotten a few that weren't reserved, but for the most part it's still very limited supply in the US.
- merb 5y ago> very limited supply in the US haha, thats for every car in the world ;-) in germany our e-up took way over a year to deliver.
- rsync 5y agoIs it their electric car or is it their car, electric ? I don't want your electric car. I don't want your e-initiative i-mobile green-tech tron-car. I want one of your actual cars, just electric. I don't want an ID.4 - I just want a Passat. I don't want the polestar e-initiative i-concept - I just want a V90 wagon. I don't want a future space truck, I just want a Silverado - but electric. God. Dammit.
- pkulak 5y agoIt looks like a Honda CUV or Toyota Rav-4 to me. Not sure where your outrage is coming from.
- rsync 5y agoNo, I'm asking - is this a VW, but electric, or is this an e-initiative space-car ? Genuinely unsure. I would classify the Chevy Bolt (which we own) as the latter .
- pkulak 5y agoWell, it's the same platform as all their other cars. So I'd say it's a VW.
- brokenintuition 5y agoI went from a Bolt to now having an ID4. So far it seems to fall in the VW but electric category (although this is my first VW, so take that with a grain of salt). Major things I prefer over the bolt: nicer (in my opinion) interior, more interior space, travel assist is pretty awesome, slightly longer range, and higher fast charging rate. The higher fast charging rate is what's making it more viable for us to take that instead of my wife's gas car for trips, since charging stops don't need to be as long.
- Tagbert 5y agoThe ID.4 could be considered to be an electric version of the VW Tiguan. It is similar in internal size and capacity and it targets the compact CUV customer but with electric drive train. It does use a newer platform. Even the styling is quite restrained and conservative compared to other EVs.
- wayanon 5y agoIt’s interesting to see the word ‘pollution’ seems to have been completely replaced by ‘emission’. I guess the car industry won?
- kingsuper20 5y ago'Mostly peaceful' emission might be the way to go.
- legulere 5y agoZero emission vehicles still pollute with their tires.
- theshrike79 5y agoI'll take tire pollution over gridlocked non-moving cars spewing fumes right next to my apartment, thank you.
- barbazoo 5y agoAnd don't forget: during production
- theshrike79 5y agoYup, but many manufacturers are carbon-offsetting their production a lot more compared to ICE cars. Also: depending on your country's electricity production profile, EVs tend to become more environmentally friendly around 2-3 years of use according to studies. And when the production profile changes (more renewables etc.) ALL EVs on the road instantly become better for the environment. There's no practical way of makin ICE cars better for the environment after they're sold.
- barbazoo 5y agoFor sure. I get annoyed when people argue along the lines of "but look how all the power is generated using coal and oil" because people simply don't understand that electricity is the interface that decouples the car's energy source from the way its source. As you said, once electricity is generated using only renewables, bam, instant success, without changing anything about the cars.
- Snoozus 5y agoVoltswagen
- xeromal 5y agohahaha, I'm still waiting for the postmortem on what that was.
- Animats 5y agoBut you'll have to be patient; it's still two years away. No, they did not launch their first all-electric SUV. They announced it. There's a difference. [EDIT] Sorry, that's the "ID Buzz." A "people carrier in the spirit of the old Volkswagen microbus."
- brokenintuition 5y agoThere's one in my driveway right now, I guarantee you it's not two years away
- jackson1442 5y agoAccording to the site[1] they're shipping (shipped?) First Edition purchases to buyers in Q1 2021 and will be shipping cars made with reservations starting this summer for the lower trim and Oct-Nov for the higher trim. [1]: https://www.vw.com/pre-order/ https://www.vw.com/pre-order/
- clouddrover 5y agoThey're delivering ID.4s across the world now. It's currently the third best selling EV in Norway for 2021: https://elbilstatistikk.no/ https://elbilstatistikk.no/ It may end up being the best selling model in Norway this year. The Audi e-tron (which is also a Volkswagen SUV) was the best selling EV in Norway in 2020. Other VW SUVs which will be delivered this year are the Skoda Enyaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdByCvnNQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdByCvnNQA) and the Audi Q4 e-tron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ihZXQIlpRM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ihZXQIlpRM).
- OBFUSCATED 5y agoIs this why volkswagen.com is down? There was an unexpected error (type=Internal Server Error, status=500). Redis command timed out; nested exception is io.lettuce.core.RedisCommandTimeoutException: Command timed out after 1 minute(s)
- outside1234 5y agoThat doesn't bode well for their in car digital services.
- fnord77 5y agochip shortage
- bognition 5y agoHere is a great no frills review of the ID.4 https://youtu.be/3oC9sUiwyL8 https://youtu.be/3oC9sUiwyL8 The TL;DR is even if its electric its not a serious competitor to tesla. The UI is terrible as the drive is unable to find a charger while navigating to their destination. Electric car charging stations are going to look completely different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging stations of varying capacity. Enabling drivers to know where to charge their cars is a killer feature of Telsa and any company that wants to compete will have to make it as easy if not easier to ensure your car is always charged and that you are able to charge on long trips.
- theshrike79 5y ago> Electric car charging stations are going to look completely different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging stations of varying capacity. Yep, this is the big change people aren't yet getting. Every mom and pop store in a small town can get free advertising just by installing a $1k charger for their customers and having it be visible in charging maps. I have no interest in stopping to charge at Generic Gas Station #42 with the accompanying Franchise Fast Food Restaurant next to it when I'm on vacation or a road trip. I'll rather pick something interesting.
- xeromal 5y agoHopefully they can update the crappy destination charging through an OTA update. If not, it's DOA.
- jeffbee 5y agoid.4 comes with Android Auto and CarPlay compatibility. You'd be a fool to rely on the OEM tech. Tesla loses big in this regard because they don't offer either and their built-in tech is garbage.
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- outside1234 5y agoFrom the company with rampant electrical reliability problems in their existing gas cars. Hmmmm.
- nikolay 5y agoI'm puzzled why EVs are so expensive when they have simpler design and parts. Is it because of the battery? Also, isn't EMF radiation an issue for you?
- oblio 5y agoBatteries are very expensive. EMF radiation from what?
- TulliusCicero 5y agoYes, the batteries are currently still very expensive. You're right that engine-wise, they're considerably simpler.
- rsynnott 5y ago> Is it because of the battery? That's the big contributor, yep. > Also, isn't EMF radiation an issue for you? For who? I mean, if you happen to be an AM radio it may be an issue, but I can't see why it would be a problem for humans.
- hnburnsy 5y agoGood point on the AM radio, my Model 3 does not have AM, but wondering do any BEVs have AM radio?
- rconti 5y agoI've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018 Tesla Model 3. IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore, that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't have AWD, has a ton less power, is significantly slower, less range, and no supercharger access. Now, those aren't awful hits against a tax-credit-fueled $10k savings (or whatever). But I don't think it's close to there yet. There are a lot of weird things from the reviews I've seen, too. Spotty voice recognition, "free" charging requires you to use a fiddly phone app, the car only has 2 window switches and requires that you toggle between front and rear with a 3rd button (wtf), and the Nav system is awful and routes you to chargepoint (ultra slow) chargers on a roadtrip, vs DC fast chargers. So much of this can be changed in software, and maybe VW will drop the price when the tax credits go away, the same way Tesla did. But, it just seems like far too little car for the money.
- wishysgb 5y agowell my sister is looking at it for 29k after incentives that is a lot less than Model 3 or Y
- mtmail 5y agoI assumed the id 3 is a closer match to Golf and Tesla Model 3. It's 20% cheaper (in Europe) but not launched in the US.
- argonaut 5y agoThe standard range Model Y, which you can only order in-store/phone (so I'm not even sure if it's still available), costs something like $42k and it's RWD, not AWD, and has about the same range as the ID4. You also can't just say "without the credit." Once the ID4 loses the tax credit, VW will cut the price of the ID4. Tesla cut the price of the Model 3 when it started losing the credit.
- rconti 5y agoThe ID4 "First" edition with RWD only, 201hp 250mi range and 7.1s 0-60 had a $45,190 base price in the US vs a $49,490 AWD Model Y with 326mi range and 4.8s 0-60. (I had to go back and look up all the numbers I was looking at a month or two ago when I was following ID4 reviews. Apologies if you don't feel like this was represented properly in my initial comment). Credits depend on what state you're in, and whether you're eligible, which is why I don't factor those in for the VW. When we bought our Tesla I think we got $7500 fed and $2500 state, so it took a clean 10k off the effective price. As you mention, the base RWD Model Y, if you can get one, would be more similar in specs. It doesn't seem to be available anymore. Range was similar, it was sub-$40k, and massively faster I'm sure, than the comparatively glacial ID4 (we have a RWD 3 which is something like low 5s 0-60). I agree with you 100% on the "without credit" part. Which is precisely why I stated it up front in my original comment. Right down to how VW may cut prices as the credit dries up just like Tesla did.
- intrasight 5y agoMy opinion is that the industry has gone in the wrong direction with batteries. Cars should use swappable rechargeable batteries swapped by robots at the charging station. Faster pit stops and simpler batteries (no need for water-cooled, etc) and cheaper cars. And elimination of concern of battery warranty.
- noahmbarr 5y agoGuessing you're a non-EV owner. I've owned a Tesla for the last 6 months. Here's my experience: * It charges at home, begining the charge at 12:30AM just after the rates drop. It charges to ~240 miles of range. * For the 4 days I've wanted to go futher, charged upto 100% and that solved my problem 2 of the 4. * Other 2 days, I stopped at a charger along my way on a road trip. there was a place to grab food and take a walk. 25 minutes later on was back on the road. No biggie. -- I don't need or want a swapable battery. Rather have a better engineered car that doesn't have this engineering requirement. I'd assume 99% of Tesla owners would agree.
- bdamm 5y agoTesla Model 3 LR owner. Completely agree. There's no need for all the extra baggage for rapid battery swap. Road trips are easy already without swapping the battery. And the battery is swappable... just not rapidly. I've done many long distance road trips, and some regular road trips where I actually choose a slower (V1) supercharger because it's close to a friend's house and we can meet up for lunch or dinner while I'm passing through their city. The notification on my phone that the charge session has ended always interrupts our meal a bit earlier than we would naturally end it, but that just means no awkward goodbye. It's great. Also, I couldn't imagine driving an EV now without liquid cooled batteries. How would you preheat the battery when you want it to be nice and warm in preparation for a rapid charge, or to gain performance on cold mornings?
- dreamcompiler 5y agoAnd the new Teslas have a heat pump to recycle battery heat into the cabin. There have been some notable failure reports with this, but so far so good on our Model Y.
- Graffur 5y agoCan someone living in an apartment with no charging point at their space get an electric car?
- oblio 5y agoMaybe? Realistically, I wouldn't get it. Wait 3-5 years, let them build out the charging networks, then buy one.
- dreamcompiler 5y agoYes, but... I'd only do it if I had a DC rapid charger nearby (i.e. a supercharger if you buy a Tesla or a CCS if you buy a VW). And keep in mind you're going to pay more for the electricity at the DC rapid charger than you would at home--probably 2x or 3x the price per kWh.
- hnburnsy 5y agoThat would negate most of your gas savings as those charging networks charge more than what you can charge for at home. When I charge at a supercharge the rate is equivalent to gas at 3 per gallon. Charging at home is 80‰ cheaper.
- chiph 5y agoMaybe. I had a neighbor who unplugged their electric dryer and ran a cord out the window to charge their Model 3.
- Zanni 5y agoYeah, maybe. It really depends on your use case and the charging you have available to you. If you're mostly going back and forth to work and you can charge there, then definitely yes. If you drive a lot and you don't have access to a convenient Level 3 charger, then probably no. I had my Model S about 18 months before I could get a home charger installed at my townhouse. I spent a lot of time in the Whole Foods parking lot, charging at 12 mph. Not recommended. Later, I discovered a Level 3 charger (which required a $500 adapter to use), and I'd just go catch a movie once a week while my car charged at 100 mph.
- beckman466 5y agoI’m waiting for the next scandal where we find out that inside their black box electric motor there is a little diesel motor that gets topped up at night by tiny garden gnomes.
- jliptzin 5y ago250 mile range is laughable for that price.
- rnikander 5y agoI do not understand why Chevy dropped the Volt. It seemed ideal to me. Run on electric mostly, but have a little gas generator on board so don't get stuck anywhere.
- simondotau 5y agoAnd it can also mechanically couple the ICE motor to the wheels at highway speeds, when it is more efficient to do so. For a hybrid it was an inspired design.
- WanderPanda 5y agoMy parents had it, branded as the Opel Ampera and it was a great car. But I think carrying all this additional complexity around with you is looking less appealing with the ever growing charging rates and battery sizes
- woeirua 5y agoThe ID4 is a nice car, and definitely on our radar after our Nissan Leaf lease expires. If you regularly take long road trips you’re going to be disappointed in the user experience with an EV. But EVs right now are perfect second cars. If the average American family replaced one of their cars with an EV it would drastically reduce emissions without requiring people to totally sacrifice the benefits of gas.
- pram 5y agoI was planning on buying an EV, until I lost power for a week in Texas. My car was the only thing that saved my bacon. Really made me lose faith in being so dependent on electricity for everything lol. Very third-world feelings, but there you go.
- tibiahurried 5y agoI would never spend more than $25k for a car. Period.
- KingMachiavelli 5y agoLooks pretty nice. AWD is about $44k, $36k with the tax credit. Honestly that's a pretty decent option. $40k sedans were always a bit of a practicality stretch. A sedan is fine for some things but in family with two working family the sedan is a secondary car wheel the SUV is the more expensive work horse. A $40k electric SUV can be used for commute, ski trips, camping. Perfect for a family's 'main' car. It looks like electric might finally win both practicality and cost.
- mixmastamyk 5y agoIs it possible to drive any new cars or charge at any of these stations with privacy?
- songshuu 5y agoLet's hope that this means VW will actually deliver on the ID Buzz in 2023.
- erwinh 5y agoSeeing more and more ID.3s in the streets. I find the look a bit funky though with the headlights and VW logo looking almost printed on. Because they wanted it completely flush for aero probably.
- ABS 5y agohighly recommend Munro's 6 short hands-on videos on ID.4 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkiDlGyJnprdkrCXUOh-NGAZNSd1DK6TK https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkiDlGyJnprdkrCXUOh-N...
- w-m 5y agoI was disappointed with these. Yes the VW software is much worse than Tesla’s, but he goes on a 10 minute rant that there are no maps - because he hadn’t figured out that the screen has a home button. After softball questions when directly talking to Elon and then just needlessly dumping on the VW, it now feels to me that there is a bias in these videos towards the manufacturers that might hire him, and against them that don’t. I enjoyed previously when there was just raw engineering facts and now it feels a bit off. Hopefully I’m just imagining things.
- xiphias2 5y agoTesla didn’t hire him, but when he realized how fast Tesla is growing up and how fast it is iterating on its design in the right direction, he loaded up on Tesla stocks, so I guess TSLA price is the most important for him at this point.