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Sales of electric cars up by 43% in 2020

407 points by apsec112 6y ago

apsec112 6y ago
Paywall workaround: https://archive.is/wHV3C https://archive.is/wHV3C
- chovybizzass 6y ago
  also https://briskreader.com/link/pIjwTjcMgRo https://briskreader.com/link/pIjwTjcMgRo
- wartijn_ 6y ago
  Does The Guardian have a paywall in some countries? All I ever see is a pop-up and some banners asking to donate. Sometimes those banners and pop-ups explain why they don't have a paywall.
chovybizzass 6y ago
I am going to buy a new car soon and I think it will be the last time gasoline will be available for me. I'm going 4x4 so there's not much EV options.
- morty_s 6y ago
  I felt the same way. My wife and I bought a model y in November and we love it. If I could get an electric Tacoma I would, but I think I’m going to have to get into the cyber truck if I want an electric truck.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    Rivian?
    - xyst 6y ago
      next deliveries are supposed to be in 2022 lol. im hyped about rivian though. the r1t is sexy af
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Depends on the type of 4x4 you want. If you're looking for the "I can go EVERYWHERE" type, then your options are a bit limited at the moment (Rivian, Cybertruck, Bollinger). For regular "I want better traction and pull a trailer" 4x4 you've got a bunch of options, mostly PHEV though.
  - titanomachy 6y ago
    Are any of those actually options "at the moment"? If I put a deposit on a Rivian or Cybertruck I have no idea when I would actually get to drive it, depends how many people are in line and whether their production lines ramp up on schedule. I can drive a Subaru off the lot today if I want.
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      All three are either prototypes or in pre-production, you can't really buy any of them right now. They did have prototype Rivians for Long Way Up[1] as support vehicles. Keep the old Land Rover or Subaru and check again in a year or two for an actual EV 4x4. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12824922/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12824922/
- ip26 6y ago
  EV AWD is really good, FWIW.
- mparramon 6y ago
  https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev
- Zhenya 6y ago
  Rivian https://rivian.com/r1t https://rivian.com/r1t
- john_w_t_b 6y ago
  How about Jeep 4XE, RAV4 Prime or Mitsubishi Outlander. PHEV options are expanding for all wheel drive.
- natch 6y ago
  Are you claiming that EVs don’t have AWD? My car begs to differ. Or...? Sorry I’m not versed on the finer points of 4x4 versus 4WD versus AWD terminology so maybe it’s me that’s confused, feel free to fill me in.
  - ip26 6y ago
    4x4 mechanically locks the front and rear axles together. Valuable vs AWD for driving in very low traction conditions like sand, mud, deep snow. Should not be engaged on dry pavement. AWD dynamically routes power and is always on.
    - natch 6y ago
      Thanks! I wonder if the “valuable vs AWD” part is updated to reflect what EVs can do vs old fashioned gears-and-transmission AWD.
      - chrisBob 6y ago
        EVs typically have a different motor for the front and back wheels, so they would have most of the same traction benefit of a 4x4 system. In the case of companies like Tesla, I think they market as AWD because that implies a system designed for slippery roads, and not off road trails. 4x4 or 4WD can differ a lot but all typically include a locking center differential so that even if both front (or rear) wheels have no traction, the vehicle can move.
        natch 6y ago
        Model Y has an “off road” mode but that’s about all I know — don’t know how it works.
  - titanomachy 6y ago
    For me it was a matter of cost, there were lots of inexpensive used ICE cars with AWD but no electric ones. The cheapest AWD Tesla seems to be $47k new which is vastly more than most people spend on a car.
hourislate 6y ago
I read the following article today and was quite impressed. It's the worlds 2nd largest auto market and Tesla is doing very well there. The factory is not at full production and still they managed to be the best selling EV. Tesla Model 3 Is 2020's Best-Selling EV in China, Company Achieves 11% Market Share https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-became-the-best-selling-ev-in-china-in-2020-with-an-11-market-share https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-became-...
- Clewza313 6y ago
  11% of the EV market share, not the total market. Still impressive enough given that the Chinese EV market is extremely competitive and fragmented, but a long way from mass adoption.
- nickik 6y ago
  This 11% number really hides the reality. You are comparing what amounts to a luxury car to basically tiny city car that cost like 10% of the Tesla. If you look at revenue in that market it is a far larger number. Tesla in general in terms of BEV is about 28% of the global market and more if you consider revenue. In Europe the largest competitor to the Model 3 is also a cheaper city car. Tesla is doing very well and has been growing market share globally every year.
willxinc 6y ago
Vaguely curious why this is the case, if people are respecting the pandemic.
- dagmx 6y ago
  There were some compelling new EVs and price drops around the pandemic time frame. For example we bought a Model Y. A pandemic is also a great time to get a car, because prices had dropped with many incentives, but also driving to go on socially distant hikes is a great way to stay healthy and break things up.
- aatharuv 6y ago
  People are driving far less in general, and I suspect fewer people are road tripping, so range anxiety, and rechargeability becomes less of a problem for those who need to buy a new car. But there are also more people replacing plane with car travel, which increases the numbers of people driving, but I presume that's much lower than the number of people no longer road tripping. And some of those people might decide it's worth it just to rent a car if they need to do that.
  - willxinc 6y ago
    Ah, this makes sense (as do the other responses, likely a combination of factors). It had slipped my mind that people would still need to make (typically shorter range) trips for groceries and other critical things.
- redisman 6y ago
  I mean a car is the best way to get around in a pandemic? You're in a sealed cube.
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  It is mostly driven by China, which isn’t locked down due to the pandemic.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  I actually know a ton of people who have taken road trips this year (to get out of the house and do anything, anywhere) in lieu of flights.
sircastor 6y ago
I’ll be interested to see the lifespan of EVs for “normal” people. I’ve got a 2012 Nissan LEAF we bought post-lease in 2015. I love it still, and don’t have any plans to replace it. The battery is not in great shape, but it gets me where I need to go. I am genuinely considering replacing the battery rather than buying another EV when the battery finally fails.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  The only cars having actual battery issues so far are older Leafs (shit thermal management for the battery) and Priuses (they're just old). No other EV has had major battery issues yet, so there really hasn't been time to develop a viable 3rd party battery replacement industry. Even the actual car manufacturers tend to quote insane prices for full battery replacements because they really don't have a process in place on how to handle it yet.
  - jeffreygoesto 6y ago
    "just old" applies to the battery technology used when they were built. Not to "a car" in general. It is totally uneconomic to scrap a car only because one part broke. I own a car from 1978 that is in very good shape (for some minimal maintenance cost, you should not just let it rot).
    - uncledave 6y ago
      There will be a third party battery and retrofit industry when enough people have them.
    - csunbird 6y ago
      > It is totally uneconomic to scrap a car only because one part broke. When the battery replacement cost outvalues the cars price, it is uneconomical to repair.
      - selykg 6y ago
        Everyone is always so hung up on the value of the car when it comes to repairs. The value of the car is only what someone would pay for it. If you're planning to keep it, then that value is only an insurance number. A car is potentially worth a lot more if you keep it, especially if the car is low maintenance. With electric cars you trade some value up front (they are typically more expensive) to reduce the maintenance over the long term. But you will still have maintenance like replacing batteries when they go. You saved the cost of filling it up with gas and changing oil for going electric. So the smart move would be to treat your car like you're still sort of filling it with gas and changing oil and put that money towards the cost of new batteries when the time comes. Every car has maintenance costs. With electric you just sort of push it down the road a ways when it comes to the battery. You could get a new car... sure.. but now you have a car payment, or you may have thrown a bunch of cash at the problem. But if there's nothing wrong with your car except maintenance then put that money into the maintenance. Otherwise you're just pretending to care about the environment with your electric car that you probably tell yourself is cheaper (due to gas and oil changes) and better for the environment.
danielheath 6y ago
Up 43% is great news. To put it in context: There were 91 million cars produced last year (per wikipedia) and 3 million electric cars sold.
- erikstarck 6y ago
  If that growth rate continues, electric cars will pass 50% sold in 8 years. Going to be an interesting decade.
  - ido 6y ago
    That would be great but high % growth from a small base doesn't imply the same growth rate will continue once it reaches higher levels (see for example how undeveloped economies grow faster until they become developed, at which point growth slows down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_(economics))
    - nindalf 6y ago
      In general, what you’re saying about growth rates is true. However, there’s reason to believe that electric cars could grow at that pace 1. Regulation by governments. A few states and countries are mandating zero emissions (ie electric) vehicles by 2035. 2. Car manufacturer strategy. Since they know they can’t sell ICE vehicles past 2035 in some jurisdictions, it’s better to make the transition to electric quicker. Audi, for example, doesn’t plan to refresh its ICE vehicles past 2023. Even if you wanted to buy a new ICE Audi in 2025, you couldn’t. 3. Prices for consumers. The increase in manufacturing volumes of batteries will make them cheaper. They’ve dropped 20% per year over the last decade thanks to increased volumes. In a few years, the sticker price on electric vehicles will become lower without any subsidies. Their total cost of ownership is already lower. This will further increase growth. 4. Charging infrastructure. Currently the second biggest stumbling block (after sticker price). It’s not economically feasible to build charging networks or infra in apartment complexes when electric vehicles are niche. But as they grow in popularity, it becomes more viable, further increasing their popularity. So yes, normally you can’t expect growth like this to last. But it possibly will because the attractiveness of electric cars increases in proportion to their popularity.
2Gkashmiri 6y ago
i bought an electric two wheeler, a "low power" one for a grant total of USD 835 in indian rupees last year. since then the petrol prices have gone up by 15-20%. my previous vehicle was bought in 2016 for same price. i sold it and got half my money. had to pay 400 in cash. since then minor maintenance which is basically free so for the last year i have saved almost $250-290. in 1 year. in this year i will get my 400 back in savings and after that for the next 3 years i will "earn" out of driving. note: i have grid tied 5KWH solar system at home so electricity costs are zero
angmarsbane 6y ago
One thing I keep getting tripped up on with EV cars is the usability during an emergency. I grew up in SoCal when there were rolling black-outs. Just this week, a windstorm took out my parent’s power for 3 days. I don’t view electricity to be as reliable as gas. What fact am I missing that can change my view on this?
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  I have SCE, but I just keep my Model 3 plugged in when I’m not driving, and it’s always at 90% when I need it: it’s better than gas, because home charging means I don’t have to remember to keep my tank full for emergencies.
- root_axis 6y ago
  You can't pump gas if there's no power to the pump. Electric is also nice because you don't have to queue up at a fueling station, this is especially convenient in situations where an outage is anticipated like in advance of inclement weather. Also, in a typical emergency situation if you're using your vehicle, it'll be taking you out of the disaster area into a place where electricity (and gas) will be available.
- pmorici 6y ago
  Tesla put a bunch of their charging stations onto solar panels with battery backup and they have large batteries on trailers with chargers they deploy to meet demand during peak travel periods. In a world where everyone or a lot people have a home battery system with solar neither gas stations nor the electric grid will matter as much possibly not at all. Think about it this way. Is there a way for you to buy equipment to make your own gas from resources on your property? Is there equipment you can buy to generate your own electricity?
- jillesvangurp 6y ago
  How much is that irrational fear worth to you? In the end that's the question that needs answering. Very soon, you'll be paying extra to buy a petrol vehicle. And that's before you drive it anywhere and get to deal with taxes, fuel cost, and maintenance cost as well. In any case, a typical EV would have about 50KWH of battery; more than enough to power a house for a while. The more EVs there are, the more stored KWH of energy will be around in any area if a blackout happens. Much more useful than oversized SUVs burning up all the remaining fuel in your area while fuel logistics are being disrupted. For your parents, an EV and vehicle to grid technology could have seen them through those 3 days. More, if you drive it to some fast charging access point in between to top it up for 10$. It's perfect especially for remote setups. Add some solar panels to the mix and you are basically not dependent on the grid.
paul7986 6y ago
Can i get an electric car that I can go fill it's battery as fast as I can go fill my gasoline tank? That's when I'm getting one!
- oblio 6y ago
  You're being downvoted because HN loves electric car, but for the layman, that's their thought process: 1. Does the EV cost as much as a regular car? Most of them are very expensive, comparatively, especially for cheap family cars. 2. Is the range comparable to regular cars? It's not, at similar prices it's 60%. 3. Is it trivial to recharge it, especially quickly? Not true for most of the world. 4. Can the car be bought today? Nope, most are just announced and even for those that are "available" delivery is many months from now.
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    It's not hard to see the trajectory however. I heard the same types of arguments against digital cameras. Ten years later film cameras barely exist.
    - oblio 6y ago
      True, but timing is everything. 2021 still seems to early for mass EV adoption, 2022 might see a proper ramp up and we will have to wait until 2025 or so, for better battery tech and cheaper batteries, to have EVs truly on an equal footing to internal combustion engine cars. After that things will probably pick up and we'll get the hockey stick that leads to what you're saying.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    1. True, EVs are more expensive and do need government subsidies to make up the difference 2. If you're measuring range as "don't stop at all, I'll pee in a bottle" range, then yes. A better measurement would be "is the range enough for my normal daily use", then the answer is yes for a large number of people. Not everyone of course, some people actually _need_ to drive long distances daily without the ability to recharge. For those people an ICE car is the only valid option for at least a good 5 years. 3. The first thing you should forget is the "gas station" mentality, there shouldn't be any need to drive to a specific "charging station" and wait for 45 minutes doing nothing for the car to charge. Recharging should always be done at home overnight (10+ hours of charge time, low power requirement), or during normal daily activities (work, shopping). Quick recharges should only be needed if you're driving more in a day than the car's maximum range is. Road trips and traveling long distances mostly. 4. True, electric cars are sold as fast as they can be churned off the production line. The most popular ones have long queues.
brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
I'm curious if this is due to fewer options in the market that aren't EV.
godmode2019 6y ago
'Global sales' I hope everyone understands in China it is very hard to get a licence plate, the government allows you to get a licence plate if you buy a heavily subsidised electric car. The aim is to stimulate demand to develop an industry. Large cities also banned motorbikes and scooters, with the same aim. This is no way market driven demand, BYD is a very interesting company to look into. It is my understanding that Warren buffet has a large share in this company. My believe is China sees oil dependence as a long term strategic weakness. In the event of a navel blockade it will be much harder for them to get the oil they need to run the economy. If a large part of the consumer sector is driven by electric powered by local sources (coal, hydro, nuclear) they can keep the logistic channels open. As a side benefit they get to fund a sector hoping to have the same success as they did with solar panels. The article might have pointed this out but it was paid past a certain point on my device.
- perfunctory 6y ago
  China is the biggest market indeed. As a counter point though > Sales of BEVs almost tripled in the UK, while those of PHEVs almost doubled, giving the vehicles a combined market share of 10.7%. Other non-plug-in hybrids took 18% of the market, but overall car sales were down 29%. Here is another interesting chart about Germany https://insideevs.com/news/447542/tesla-sales-growth-germany-2020/ https://insideevs.com/news/447542/tesla-sales-growth-germany... It's not solely China.
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    Tesla’s sales in Germany are up ~20%, but on a very low level. Their total market share is now 0.5 percent. It’a definitely encouraging to see growth here, but there’s still a long way to go. It’s also important to keep in mind that the numbers for electric vehicles often include plug-in hybrids. They’re a neat idea in theory, but in practice, they often serve as a hybrid car and never get plugged in. The gains from those vehicles are somewhat limited, except that they are included in the subsidies for electric cars in Germany.
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
sub7 6y ago
If you're the kind of person whose phone frequently runs out of battery or someone who moves around in harsh climates, I'd skip the EV for now. It's great that cleaner cars are getting adopted faster. The absolute number gap is still very big, the infrastructure challenges are also very big (remember BetterPlace?) and current optimism is very irrational.
ekzy 6y ago
I need a new car but I am put off by the range and charging infrastructure of EV. I haven’t looked into it properly yet but I’m surprised there’s not much more good hybrid cars on the market, sounds like a great compromise on the paper. What’s the catch?
- Avocadoe 6y ago
  The upside and downside of hybrid cars boils down to the same thing: Having two energy systems on-board. While often great, it also makes the whole system quite a bit more complex. You need a gas tank and a battery, electric motors and internal combustion engines, and so on. I don't know how hybrid cars compare in terms of purchase price and maintenance costs, but on paper they are a much more complicated system.
- Buraksr 6y ago
  Mainly more points of failure, and additional weight to my knowledge. The electric motor allows superior city driving due to the nice fact that you have regenerative breaking and much more efficient low speed operation where an ICE would not be able to run at its most efficient RPMs. While the gas engine gives a lot of convivence that you might otherwise lose. The downside is now you have two drivetrains that need to integrate into a very limited space, with limited weight as the whole goal was to make an more efficient car. Its also non-trivial to make a good transmission let alone one that has two inputs, or even an integrated electric motor. Batteries in a hybrid are also pushed much harder in a way. Batteries are often rated over 20hr discharge cycles as you can generally get more power out of a battery by discharging it slowly. Asking 1A from a 100Ahr battery vs 1A from a 1A battery is very different in terms of effective capacity as well as the longevity of the cell. Given that batteries are so heavy and you need two drivetrains you can only add so much battery capacity. The end result is that its easy for the batteries to age faster in a hybrid. A surmountable issue is heat, batteries don't play well outside a range of limited range of temperatures. Too cold and they will have less effective capacity, too hot and they can be damaged or degrade faster. This issue can be overcome, but is just another way there is more complexity than Tesla's 'the floor is a battery approach'. Hybrids are cool, but they are hard to make right is the tldr.
- yread 6y ago
limaoscarjuliet 6y ago
The next step is to work on cleaner electricity. While most EU got the message long time ago, eastern bloc countries are much behind. Currently in Poland it is better for the environment to drive a diesel VW Golf than Tesla, as the electricity is produced from brown coal.
- manmal 6y ago
  If you consider that the new car in Poland will be on the road for 10-15 years, it's still better to buy an electric car instead. They will exit coal soon, and in a few years the EV will be greener to operate.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I thought cars these days last 200k miles easy, probably 300k+ with minor repairs. At 15k miles per year, that should give at least 15 years of use, but I would hope the average was more 20+.
    - manmal 6y ago
      I agree, in some cases 15-20 years, or more, might be possible. Depends on how easy/cheap to replace all the parts are - seats will wear out, the headliner will have accumulated all kinds of stains and grease, random electronics (a modern car has ~100 microcontrollers) might fail and be hard to access, AC might be expensive to fix, maybe the battery dies and (even if the batteries are cheap by then) the mechanic charges 1k for the replacement... At some point it's probably cheaper to buy another used 8yo EV than continuing to maintain an 18yo EV.
- akmarinov 6y ago
  Sadly you're asking the poorest countries in the EU to completely overhaul their energy production. While that will happen, it'll take a longer time on average.
- Faaak 6y ago
  That's not true. Even with coal, the end-to-end emissions are better with electric cars. Proof: Poland is 800gCO₂/kWh [1]. With an average electric car (i.e. my hyundai ioniq), you average 11kWh/100km, or .11kWh/km. Taking emissions into account, that gives us 88gCO₂/km. A VW golf is 120gCO₂/km [2] [1]: https://www.electricitymap.org/map https://www.electricitymap.org/map [2]: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mpg-figures?manufacturer=volkswagen https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mp...
ratsforhorses 6y ago
Just putting this out there but I'd really like to see more "Twike" style, electromagnetic flywheel engineering offerings which aren't overpriced... I live in Romania and there's a huge potential for taking out the ICE and putting in some sort or electric motor train... Otherwise we'll take ages to resolve the situation of poorer countries where legislation is looser (Africa, South America etc)
kristopolous 6y ago
The "iphone" of the electric car still isn't here. I've been saying it's coming soon for a while, cars that are so vastly superior to gas cars that it re-frames the gas car as being legacy technology just as the smartphone from apple finally got the consumer interested in smartphones and view flip-phones as inferior. I think however, it's going to come from left-field (not from Tesla) and for the first time I'm tossing a date on it, 24-36 months: The key is the bizarre three-wheeled electric cars from micro-manufacturers like aptera, ampere, nobe, elio, arcimoto, electra meccanica, malcolm bricklin, sondors, and vanderhall. They are offering low priced commuter vehicles with really low drag coefficients, easy parking, and when combined with solar panels embedded in the body (which I know of 3 manufacturers that are releasing cars this year that will do this) you'll get effectively a "worry free" vehicle; it charges more than you usually drive it, needs very little maintenance and repair, and is easy to maneuver. I think Geoffrey Moore's diagram on this one is starting this year and if the next gen of these funky cars are as "practical" as I think them to be, I think the chasm will be jumped around 2023/2024. Right, this sounds unrealistic now. Obviously cars like this https://www.aptera.us/product-page/250-miles-per-charge https://www.aptera.us/product-page/250-miles-per-charge aren't going to see mainstream pickup right this second. But this is like if we were in 2003, and I used the bulky, nerdy clunky HP iPAQ 4150 (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BH3PKCZ7L._AC_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BH3PKCZ7L...) and argued that these computer-phones would eventually be a mainstream device and be a complete replacement of desktops and laptops for many people. Obviously unrealistic then. You have to iterate in your head. For instance, take the solar e-trike, make a modular design like how ebussy has (http://ebussy.de/ http://ebussy.de/), inductive charging like what bmw and witricity are working on or what's been deployed in sweden (https://www.smartroadgotland.com/ https://www.smartroadgotland.com/) you know, the next steps that everything gets crossing the chasm, you have to do the act of mentally imagining putting these things together, I can see this future coming together. Also you add the cost trajectories of batteries and solar on to it, and you'll realize this is like anything else in the innovators dilemma: the capacity is moving up, the price is moving down, steadily, year on year and you're maybe looking at say, a honda-civic level rated e-trike car at say $4,000 in 2030 that can get modular addons and be inductively recharged while driving. I know this sounds as wacky as bill gates home of the future from the 1990s where he talked to a special "assistant computer" in his living room to do things like order a cab or the carputer project MS ran to have an in-dash navigation system with location and map info in the early 90s ... it all looks crazy until it happens.
nelsonmandela 6y ago
Man I wish they'd sell an electric car without all the cameras, tracking and self driving stuff.
- hehehaha 6y ago
  Those are high-margin value-add features. I agree with you. I want a car that drives and nothing else.
- Faaak 6y ago
  Hyundai Ioniq, Renault Zoe, VW IDx, at least
  - puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
    Plenty of small city cars to choose from too: Renault Twingo electric, Skoda CITIGOe, Volkswagen e-Up, Honda E...
    - dairylee 6y ago
      Don't forget the Renault TWIZY.
      - puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
        Arguably that's more like a four-wheel scooter. I generally draw the line at Smarts (although I think the new Twingo uses the same platform as Forfour).
- pornel 6y ago
  Renault Zoe is popular in Europe. It's just as "boring" as a regular Renault.
- nickik 6y ago
  You don't have to use the sell driving but not not want the passive safety features that come with that seems kind of insane.
williesleg 6y ago
I love china they rule the new world order. Welcome leaders!
belval 6y ago
I live in a comfortable upper-middle class suburb in Canada and the number of electric cars now is impressive. Obviously when both federal and provincial governments give a tax credit it can only help.
- cs-szazz 6y ago
  +1, though sadly Ontario has cut their tax credit so it's just Federal for us now.
lumberingjack 6y ago
Yeah it's great our local coal powered plant started charging more per kilowatt because of electric cars draining the grid. They've also been adding surcharges on anything they can for electric vehicles like big taxes on tires just so they can get that tax that they're missing from the gas pump.
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Is that sarcastic about the coal plant? Depending on the plant, it's most likely better for the environment to forego ICE emissions and replace with BEV via coal. But even so, once you remove that coal, you have the BEV in place!
- alex_duf 6y ago
  (I'm going to assume it's not sarcastic) Pretty much the entire world is trying to get rid of Coal on their grid. It's expensive and has (rightfully) a bad image. So let's assume a brand new car lasts 10 years, by the time that car is ready to be changed, the grid has evolved to the point coal is irrelevant. The whole operation is still better than a buying a new petrol car.
- bagacrap 6y ago
  I mean, shouldn't they be trying to find a way to replace revenue loss from dropping gas usage? Presumably a good portion of that gas tax is going towards maintaining automobile-oriented infrastructure (roads bridges etc) which EVs also need.
known 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currently_available https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currentl... FTW
symlinkk 6y ago
I acknowledge that electric cars are objectively superior. But subjectively I can’t get excited about one. I want a great sounding exhaust. I want a great feeling manual transmission. Cars for me are more about feeling, heritage, and excitement than about raw performance and efficiency. For that reason I think I’ll try to hold on to gas cars as long as I can.
- llampx 6y ago
  I miss the days when I romanticized cars the way you seem to do.
  - symlinkk 6y ago
    Yeah I attach a lot of feelings to them, probably too much. What happened that made you stop being interested in them?
u678u 6y ago
I want to install electrical charge points in my building's 200 car garage. Does anyone have suggestions on solutions for this?
- ryathal 6y ago
  County or city building departments is probably a good place to start. If you want a few chargers it's probably find an electrician and get a permit. If you want 200 chargers, you will be talking to the power company and governments, you probably want a lawyer.

407 points by apsec112 6y ago

apsec112 6y ago

Paywall workaround: https://archive.is/wHV3C https://archive.is/wHV3C

chovybizzass 6y ago
also https://briskreader.com/link/pIjwTjcMgRo https://briskreader.com/link/pIjwTjcMgRo
wartijn_ 6y ago
Does The Guardian have a paywall in some countries? All I ever see is a pop-up and some banners asking to donate. Sometimes those banners and pop-ups explain why they don't have a paywall.

chovybizzass 6y ago

I am going to buy a new car soon and I think it will be the last time gasoline will be available for me. I'm going 4x4 so there's not much EV options.

morty_s 6y ago
I felt the same way. My wife and I bought a model y in November and we love it. If I could get an electric Tacoma I would, but I think I’m going to have to get into the cyber truck if I want an electric truck.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  Rivian?
  - xyst 6y ago
    next deliveries are supposed to be in 2022 lol. im hyped about rivian though. the r1t is sexy af
theshrike79 6y ago
Depends on the type of 4x4 you want. If you're looking for the "I can go EVERYWHERE" type, then your options are a bit limited at the moment (Rivian, Cybertruck, Bollinger). For regular "I want better traction and pull a trailer" 4x4 you've got a bunch of options, mostly PHEV though.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  Are any of those actually options "at the moment"? If I put a deposit on a Rivian or Cybertruck I have no idea when I would actually get to drive it, depends how many people are in line and whether their production lines ramp up on schedule. I can drive a Subaru off the lot today if I want.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    All three are either prototypes or in pre-production, you can't really buy any of them right now. They did have prototype Rivians for Long Way Up[1] as support vehicles. Keep the old Land Rover or Subaru and check again in a year or two for an actual EV 4x4. [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12824922/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12824922/
ip26 6y ago
EV AWD is really good, FWIW.
mparramon 6y ago
https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev
Zhenya 6y ago
Rivian https://rivian.com/r1t https://rivian.com/r1t
john_w_t_b 6y ago
How about Jeep 4XE, RAV4 Prime or Mitsubishi Outlander. PHEV options are expanding for all wheel drive.
natch 6y ago
Are you claiming that EVs don’t have AWD? My car begs to differ. Or...? Sorry I’m not versed on the finer points of 4x4 versus 4WD versus AWD terminology so maybe it’s me that’s confused, feel free to fill me in.
- ip26 6y ago
  4x4 mechanically locks the front and rear axles together. Valuable vs AWD for driving in very low traction conditions like sand, mud, deep snow. Should not be engaged on dry pavement. AWD dynamically routes power and is always on.
  - natch 6y ago
    Thanks! I wonder if the “valuable vs AWD” part is updated to reflect what EVs can do vs old fashioned gears-and-transmission AWD.
    - chrisBob 6y ago
      EVs typically have a different motor for the front and back wheels, so they would have most of the same traction benefit of a 4x4 system. In the case of companies like Tesla, I think they market as AWD because that implies a system designed for slippery roads, and not off road trails. 4x4 or 4WD can differ a lot but all typically include a locking center differential so that even if both front (or rear) wheels have no traction, the vehicle can move.
      - natch 6y ago
        Model Y has an “off road” mode but that’s about all I know — don’t know how it works.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  For me it was a matter of cost, there were lots of inexpensive used ICE cars with AWD but no electric ones. The cheapest AWD Tesla seems to be $47k new which is vastly more than most people spend on a car.

hourislate 6y ago

I read the following article today and was quite impressed. It's the worlds 2nd largest auto market and Tesla is doing very well there. The factory is not at full production and still they managed to be the best selling EV. Tesla Model 3 Is 2020's Best-Selling EV in China, Company Achieves 11% Market Share https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-became-the-best-selling-ev-in-china-in-2020-with-an-11-market-share https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-became-...

Clewza313 6y ago
11% of the EV market share, not the total market. Still impressive enough given that the Chinese EV market is extremely competitive and fragmented, but a long way from mass adoption.
nickik 6y ago
This 11% number really hides the reality. You are comparing what amounts to a luxury car to basically tiny city car that cost like 10% of the Tesla. If you look at revenue in that market it is a far larger number. Tesla in general in terms of BEV is about 28% of the global market and more if you consider revenue. In Europe the largest competitor to the Model 3 is also a cheaper city car. Tesla is doing very well and has been growing market share globally every year.

willxinc 6y ago

Vaguely curious why this is the case, if people are respecting the pandemic.

dagmx 6y ago
There were some compelling new EVs and price drops around the pandemic time frame. For example we bought a Model Y. A pandemic is also a great time to get a car, because prices had dropped with many incentives, but also driving to go on socially distant hikes is a great way to stay healthy and break things up.
aatharuv 6y ago
People are driving far less in general, and I suspect fewer people are road tripping, so range anxiety, and rechargeability becomes less of a problem for those who need to buy a new car. But there are also more people replacing plane with car travel, which increases the numbers of people driving, but I presume that's much lower than the number of people no longer road tripping. And some of those people might decide it's worth it just to rent a car if they need to do that.
- willxinc 6y ago
  Ah, this makes sense (as do the other responses, likely a combination of factors). It had slipped my mind that people would still need to make (typically shorter range) trips for groceries and other critical things.
redisman 6y ago
I mean a car is the best way to get around in a pandemic? You're in a sealed cube.
WillPostForFood 6y ago
It is mostly driven by China, which isn’t locked down due to the pandemic.
bpodgursky 6y ago
I actually know a ton of people who have taken road trips this year (to get out of the house and do anything, anywhere) in lieu of flights.

sircastor 6y ago

I’ll be interested to see the lifespan of EVs for “normal” people. I’ve got a 2012 Nissan LEAF we bought post-lease in 2015. I love it still, and don’t have any plans to replace it. The battery is not in great shape, but it gets me where I need to go. I am genuinely considering replacing the battery rather than buying another EV when the battery finally fails.

theshrike79 6y ago
The only cars having actual battery issues so far are older Leafs (shit thermal management for the battery) and Priuses (they're just old). No other EV has had major battery issues yet, so there really hasn't been time to develop a viable 3rd party battery replacement industry. Even the actual car manufacturers tend to quote insane prices for full battery replacements because they really don't have a process in place on how to handle it yet.
- jeffreygoesto 6y ago
  "just old" applies to the battery technology used when they were built. Not to "a car" in general. It is totally uneconomic to scrap a car only because one part broke. I own a car from 1978 that is in very good shape (for some minimal maintenance cost, you should not just let it rot).
  - uncledave 6y ago
    There will be a third party battery and retrofit industry when enough people have them.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    > It is totally uneconomic to scrap a car only because one part broke. When the battery replacement cost outvalues the cars price, it is uneconomical to repair.
    - selykg 6y ago
      Everyone is always so hung up on the value of the car when it comes to repairs. The value of the car is only what someone would pay for it. If you're planning to keep it, then that value is only an insurance number. A car is potentially worth a lot more if you keep it, especially if the car is low maintenance. With electric cars you trade some value up front (they are typically more expensive) to reduce the maintenance over the long term. But you will still have maintenance like replacing batteries when they go. You saved the cost of filling it up with gas and changing oil for going electric. So the smart move would be to treat your car like you're still sort of filling it with gas and changing oil and put that money towards the cost of new batteries when the time comes. Every car has maintenance costs. With electric you just sort of push it down the road a ways when it comes to the battery. You could get a new car... sure.. but now you have a car payment, or you may have thrown a bunch of cash at the problem. But if there's nothing wrong with your car except maintenance then put that money into the maintenance. Otherwise you're just pretending to care about the environment with your electric car that you probably tell yourself is cheaper (due to gas and oil changes) and better for the environment.

danielheath 6y ago

Up 43% is great news. To put it in context: There were 91 million cars produced last year (per wikipedia) and 3 million electric cars sold.

erikstarck 6y ago
If that growth rate continues, electric cars will pass 50% sold in 8 years. Going to be an interesting decade.
- ido 6y ago
  That would be great but high % growth from a small base doesn't imply the same growth rate will continue once it reaches higher levels (see for example how undeveloped economies grow faster until they become developed, at which point growth slows down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_(economics))
  - nindalf 6y ago
    In general, what you’re saying about growth rates is true. However, there’s reason to believe that electric cars could grow at that pace 1. Regulation by governments. A few states and countries are mandating zero emissions (ie electric) vehicles by 2035. 2. Car manufacturer strategy. Since they know they can’t sell ICE vehicles past 2035 in some jurisdictions, it’s better to make the transition to electric quicker. Audi, for example, doesn’t plan to refresh its ICE vehicles past 2023. Even if you wanted to buy a new ICE Audi in 2025, you couldn’t. 3. Prices for consumers. The increase in manufacturing volumes of batteries will make them cheaper. They’ve dropped 20% per year over the last decade thanks to increased volumes. In a few years, the sticker price on electric vehicles will become lower without any subsidies. Their total cost of ownership is already lower. This will further increase growth. 4. Charging infrastructure. Currently the second biggest stumbling block (after sticker price). It’s not economically feasible to build charging networks or infra in apartment complexes when electric vehicles are niche. But as they grow in popularity, it becomes more viable, further increasing their popularity. So yes, normally you can’t expect growth like this to last. But it possibly will because the attractiveness of electric cars increases in proportion to their popularity.

2Gkashmiri 6y ago

i bought an electric two wheeler, a "low power" one for a grant total of USD 835 in indian rupees last year. since then the petrol prices have gone up by 15-20%. my previous vehicle was bought in 2016 for same price. i sold it and got half my money. had to pay 400 in cash. since then minor maintenance which is basically free so for the last year i have saved almost $250-290. in 1 year. in this year i will get my 400 back in savings and after that for the next 3 years i will "earn" out of driving. note: i have grid tied 5KWH solar system at home so electricity costs are zero

angmarsbane 6y ago

One thing I keep getting tripped up on with EV cars is the usability during an emergency. I grew up in SoCal when there were rolling black-outs. Just this week, a windstorm took out my parent’s power for 3 days. I don’t view electricity to be as reliable as gas. What fact am I missing that can change my view on this?

fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
I have SCE, but I just keep my Model 3 plugged in when I’m not driving, and it’s always at 90% when I need it: it’s better than gas, because home charging means I don’t have to remember to keep my tank full for emergencies.
root_axis 6y ago
You can't pump gas if there's no power to the pump. Electric is also nice because you don't have to queue up at a fueling station, this is especially convenient in situations where an outage is anticipated like in advance of inclement weather. Also, in a typical emergency situation if you're using your vehicle, it'll be taking you out of the disaster area into a place where electricity (and gas) will be available.
pmorici 6y ago
Tesla put a bunch of their charging stations onto solar panels with battery backup and they have large batteries on trailers with chargers they deploy to meet demand during peak travel periods. In a world where everyone or a lot people have a home battery system with solar neither gas stations nor the electric grid will matter as much possibly not at all. Think about it this way. Is there a way for you to buy equipment to make your own gas from resources on your property? Is there equipment you can buy to generate your own electricity?
jillesvangurp 6y ago
How much is that irrational fear worth to you? In the end that's the question that needs answering. Very soon, you'll be paying extra to buy a petrol vehicle. And that's before you drive it anywhere and get to deal with taxes, fuel cost, and maintenance cost as well. In any case, a typical EV would have about 50KWH of battery; more than enough to power a house for a while. The more EVs there are, the more stored KWH of energy will be around in any area if a blackout happens. Much more useful than oversized SUVs burning up all the remaining fuel in your area while fuel logistics are being disrupted. For your parents, an EV and vehicle to grid technology could have seen them through those 3 days. More, if you drive it to some fast charging access point in between to top it up for 10$. It's perfect especially for remote setups. Add some solar panels to the mix and you are basically not dependent on the grid.

paul7986 6y ago

Can i get an electric car that I can go fill it's battery as fast as I can go fill my gasoline tank? That's when I'm getting one!

oblio 6y ago
You're being downvoted because HN loves electric car, but for the layman, that's their thought process: 1. Does the EV cost as much as a regular car? Most of them are very expensive, comparatively, especially for cheap family cars. 2. Is the range comparable to regular cars? It's not, at similar prices it's 60%. 3. Is it trivial to recharge it, especially quickly? Not true for most of the world. 4. Can the car be bought today? Nope, most are just announced and even for those that are "available" delivery is many months from now.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  It's not hard to see the trajectory however. I heard the same types of arguments against digital cameras. Ten years later film cameras barely exist.
  - oblio 6y ago
    True, but timing is everything. 2021 still seems to early for mass EV adoption, 2022 might see a proper ramp up and we will have to wait until 2025 or so, for better battery tech and cheaper batteries, to have EVs truly on an equal footing to internal combustion engine cars. After that things will probably pick up and we'll get the hockey stick that leads to what you're saying.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  1. True, EVs are more expensive and do need government subsidies to make up the difference 2. If you're measuring range as "don't stop at all, I'll pee in a bottle" range, then yes. A better measurement would be "is the range enough for my normal daily use", then the answer is yes for a large number of people. Not everyone of course, some people actually _need_ to drive long distances daily without the ability to recharge. For those people an ICE car is the only valid option for at least a good 5 years. 3. The first thing you should forget is the "gas station" mentality, there shouldn't be any need to drive to a specific "charging station" and wait for 45 minutes doing nothing for the car to charge. Recharging should always be done at home overnight (10+ hours of charge time, low power requirement), or during normal daily activities (work, shopping). Quick recharges should only be needed if you're driving more in a day than the car's maximum range is. Road trips and traveling long distances mostly. 4. True, electric cars are sold as fast as they can be churned off the production line. The most popular ones have long queues.

brutal_chaos_ 6y ago

I'm curious if this is due to fewer options in the market that aren't EV.

godmode2019 6y ago

'Global sales' I hope everyone understands in China it is very hard to get a licence plate, the government allows you to get a licence plate if you buy a heavily subsidised electric car. The aim is to stimulate demand to develop an industry. Large cities also banned motorbikes and scooters, with the same aim. This is no way market driven demand, BYD is a very interesting company to look into. It is my understanding that Warren buffet has a large share in this company. My believe is China sees oil dependence as a long term strategic weakness. In the event of a navel blockade it will be much harder for them to get the oil they need to run the economy. If a large part of the consumer sector is driven by electric powered by local sources (coal, hydro, nuclear) they can keep the logistic channels open. As a side benefit they get to fund a sector hoping to have the same success as they did with solar panels. The article might have pointed this out but it was paid past a certain point on my device.

perfunctory 6y ago
China is the biggest market indeed. As a counter point though > Sales of BEVs almost tripled in the UK, while those of PHEVs almost doubled, giving the vehicles a combined market share of 10.7%. Other non-plug-in hybrids took 18% of the market, but overall car sales were down 29%. Here is another interesting chart about Germany https://insideevs.com/news/447542/tesla-sales-growth-germany-2020/ https://insideevs.com/news/447542/tesla-sales-growth-germany... It's not solely China.
- Xylakant 6y ago
  Tesla’s sales in Germany are up ~20%, but on a very low level. Their total market share is now 0.5 percent. It’a definitely encouraging to see growth here, but there’s still a long way to go. It’s also important to keep in mind that the numbers for electric vehicles often include plug-in hybrids. They’re a neat idea in theory, but in practice, they often serve as a hybrid car and never get plugged in. The gains from those vehicles are somewhat limited, except that they are included in the subsidies for electric cars in Germany.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago

sub7 6y ago

If you're the kind of person whose phone frequently runs out of battery or someone who moves around in harsh climates, I'd skip the EV for now. It's great that cleaner cars are getting adopted faster. The absolute number gap is still very big, the infrastructure challenges are also very big (remember BetterPlace?) and current optimism is very irrational.

ekzy 6y ago

I need a new car but I am put off by the range and charging infrastructure of EV. I haven’t looked into it properly yet but I’m surprised there’s not much more good hybrid cars on the market, sounds like a great compromise on the paper. What’s the catch?

Avocadoe 6y ago
The upside and downside of hybrid cars boils down to the same thing: Having two energy systems on-board. While often great, it also makes the whole system quite a bit more complex. You need a gas tank and a battery, electric motors and internal combustion engines, and so on. I don't know how hybrid cars compare in terms of purchase price and maintenance costs, but on paper they are a much more complicated system.
Buraksr 6y ago
Mainly more points of failure, and additional weight to my knowledge. The electric motor allows superior city driving due to the nice fact that you have regenerative breaking and much more efficient low speed operation where an ICE would not be able to run at its most efficient RPMs. While the gas engine gives a lot of convivence that you might otherwise lose. The downside is now you have two drivetrains that need to integrate into a very limited space, with limited weight as the whole goal was to make an more efficient car. Its also non-trivial to make a good transmission let alone one that has two inputs, or even an integrated electric motor. Batteries in a hybrid are also pushed much harder in a way. Batteries are often rated over 20hr discharge cycles as you can generally get more power out of a battery by discharging it slowly. Asking 1A from a 100Ahr battery vs 1A from a 1A battery is very different in terms of effective capacity as well as the longevity of the cell. Given that batteries are so heavy and you need two drivetrains you can only add so much battery capacity. The end result is that its easy for the batteries to age faster in a hybrid. A surmountable issue is heat, batteries don't play well outside a range of limited range of temperatures. Too cold and they will have less effective capacity, too hot and they can be damaged or degrade faster. This issue can be overcome, but is just another way there is more complexity than Tesla's 'the floor is a battery approach'. Hybrids are cool, but they are hard to make right is the tldr.
yread 6y ago

limaoscarjuliet 6y ago

The next step is to work on cleaner electricity. While most EU got the message long time ago, eastern bloc countries are much behind. Currently in Poland it is better for the environment to drive a diesel VW Golf than Tesla, as the electricity is produced from brown coal.

manmal 6y ago
If you consider that the new car in Poland will be on the road for 10-15 years, it's still better to buy an electric car instead. They will exit coal soon, and in a few years the EV will be greener to operate.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  I thought cars these days last 200k miles easy, probably 300k+ with minor repairs. At 15k miles per year, that should give at least 15 years of use, but I would hope the average was more 20+.
  - manmal 6y ago
    I agree, in some cases 15-20 years, or more, might be possible. Depends on how easy/cheap to replace all the parts are - seats will wear out, the headliner will have accumulated all kinds of stains and grease, random electronics (a modern car has ~100 microcontrollers) might fail and be hard to access, AC might be expensive to fix, maybe the battery dies and (even if the batteries are cheap by then) the mechanic charges 1k for the replacement... At some point it's probably cheaper to buy another used 8yo EV than continuing to maintain an 18yo EV.
akmarinov 6y ago
Sadly you're asking the poorest countries in the EU to completely overhaul their energy production. While that will happen, it'll take a longer time on average.
Faaak 6y ago
That's not true. Even with coal, the end-to-end emissions are better with electric cars. Proof: Poland is 800gCO₂/kWh [1]. With an average electric car (i.e. my hyundai ioniq), you average 11kWh/100km, or .11kWh/km. Taking emissions into account, that gives us 88gCO₂/km. A VW golf is 120gCO₂/km [2] [1]: https://www.electricitymap.org/map https://www.electricitymap.org/map [2]: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mpg-figures?manufacturer=volkswagen https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/cars/Car-CO2-and-fuel-economy-mp...

ratsforhorses 6y ago

Just putting this out there but I'd really like to see more "Twike" style, electromagnetic flywheel engineering offerings which aren't overpriced... I live in Romania and there's a huge potential for taking out the ICE and putting in some sort or electric motor train... Otherwise we'll take ages to resolve the situation of poorer countries where legislation is looser (Africa, South America etc)

kristopolous 6y ago

The "iphone" of the electric car still isn't here. I've been saying it's coming soon for a while, cars that are so vastly superior to gas cars that it re-frames the gas car as being legacy technology just as the smartphone from apple finally got the consumer interested in smartphones and view flip-phones as inferior. I think however, it's going to come from left-field (not from Tesla) and for the first time I'm tossing a date on it, 24-36 months: The key is the bizarre three-wheeled electric cars from micro-manufacturers like aptera, ampere, nobe, elio, arcimoto, electra meccanica, malcolm bricklin, sondors, and vanderhall. They are offering low priced commuter vehicles with really low drag coefficients, easy parking, and when combined with solar panels embedded in the body (which I know of 3 manufacturers that are releasing cars this year that will do this) you'll get effectively a "worry free" vehicle; it charges more than you usually drive it, needs very little maintenance and repair, and is easy to maneuver. I think Geoffrey Moore's diagram on this one is starting this year and if the next gen of these funky cars are as "practical" as I think them to be, I think the chasm will be jumped around 2023/2024. Right, this sounds unrealistic now. Obviously cars like this https://www.aptera.us/product-page/250-miles-per-charge https://www.aptera.us/product-page/250-miles-per-charge aren't going to see mainstream pickup right this second. But this is like if we were in 2003, and I used the bulky, nerdy clunky HP iPAQ 4150 (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BH3PKCZ7L._AC_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BH3PKCZ7L...) and argued that these computer-phones would eventually be a mainstream device and be a complete replacement of desktops and laptops for many people. Obviously unrealistic then. You have to iterate in your head. For instance, take the solar e-trike, make a modular design like how ebussy has (http://ebussy.de/ http://ebussy.de/), inductive charging like what bmw and witricity are working on or what's been deployed in sweden (https://www.smartroadgotland.com/ https://www.smartroadgotland.com/) you know, the next steps that everything gets crossing the chasm, you have to do the act of mentally imagining putting these things together, I can see this future coming together. Also you add the cost trajectories of batteries and solar on to it, and you'll realize this is like anything else in the innovators dilemma: the capacity is moving up, the price is moving down, steadily, year on year and you're maybe looking at say, a honda-civic level rated e-trike car at say $4,000 in 2030 that can get modular addons and be inductively recharged while driving. I know this sounds as wacky as bill gates home of the future from the 1990s where he talked to a special "assistant computer" in his living room to do things like order a cab or the carputer project MS ran to have an in-dash navigation system with location and map info in the early 90s ... it all looks crazy until it happens.

nelsonmandela 6y ago

Man I wish they'd sell an electric car without all the cameras, tracking and self driving stuff.

hehehaha 6y ago
Those are high-margin value-add features. I agree with you. I want a car that drives and nothing else.
Faaak 6y ago
Hyundai Ioniq, Renault Zoe, VW IDx, at least
- puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
  Plenty of small city cars to choose from too: Renault Twingo electric, Skoda CITIGOe, Volkswagen e-Up, Honda E...
  - dairylee 6y ago
    Don't forget the Renault TWIZY.
    - puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
      Arguably that's more like a four-wheel scooter. I generally draw the line at Smarts (although I think the new Twingo uses the same platform as Forfour).
pornel 6y ago
Renault Zoe is popular in Europe. It's just as "boring" as a regular Renault.
nickik 6y ago
You don't have to use the sell driving but not not want the passive safety features that come with that seems kind of insane.

williesleg 6y ago

I love china they rule the new world order. Welcome leaders!

belval 6y ago

I live in a comfortable upper-middle class suburb in Canada and the number of electric cars now is impressive. Obviously when both federal and provincial governments give a tax credit it can only help.

cs-szazz 6y ago
+1, though sadly Ontario has cut their tax credit so it's just Federal for us now.

lumberingjack 6y ago

Yeah it's great our local coal powered plant started charging more per kilowatt because of electric cars draining the grid. They've also been adding surcharges on anything they can for electric vehicles like big taxes on tires just so they can get that tax that they're missing from the gas pump.

Dumblydorr 6y ago
Is that sarcastic about the coal plant? Depending on the plant, it's most likely better for the environment to forego ICE emissions and replace with BEV via coal. But even so, once you remove that coal, you have the BEV in place!
alex_duf 6y ago
(I'm going to assume it's not sarcastic) Pretty much the entire world is trying to get rid of Coal on their grid. It's expensive and has (rightfully) a bad image. So let's assume a brand new car lasts 10 years, by the time that car is ready to be changed, the grid has evolved to the point coal is irrelevant. The whole operation is still better than a buying a new petrol car.
bagacrap 6y ago
I mean, shouldn't they be trying to find a way to replace revenue loss from dropping gas usage? Presumably a good portion of that gas tax is going towards maintaining automobile-oriented infrastructure (roads bridges etc) which EVs also need.

known 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currently_available https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_cars_currentl... FTW

symlinkk 6y ago

I acknowledge that electric cars are objectively superior. But subjectively I can’t get excited about one. I want a great sounding exhaust. I want a great feeling manual transmission. Cars for me are more about feeling, heritage, and excitement than about raw performance and efficiency. For that reason I think I’ll try to hold on to gas cars as long as I can.

llampx 6y ago
I miss the days when I romanticized cars the way you seem to do.
- symlinkk 6y ago
  Yeah I attach a lot of feelings to them, probably too much. What happened that made you stop being interested in them?

u678u 6y ago

I want to install electrical charge points in my building's 200 car garage. Does anyone have suggestions on solutions for this?

ryathal 6y ago
County or city building departments is probably a good place to start. If you want a few chargers it's probably find an electrician and get a permit. If you want 200 chargers, you will be talking to the power company and governments, you probably want a lawyer.