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Why is Apple acting like an asshole?

• kylec 6y ago
  Why is this an issue? Apps built with the old SDK will still work on iOS 14, and you can continue to submit apps built with the old SDK for a while. Nothing says your app _has_ to be built with the new SDK on day 1.
  • akmarinov 6y ago
    Some apps (Pokemon Go) just crash on launch on 14 without updates.
    • mrsuprawsm 6y ago
      Surely the developers had the 3 month beta period to identify these issues, and ship fixes, right? As far as I understand it, it's possible to ship fixes for a new iOS version before that iOS version actually launches, and indeed that's the idea of the beta period.
      • TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
        The new OS version is a moving target, and it only really settles down with the final release candidate - which can still be changing a couple of weeks before the actual release. So yes, it's possible to write to the beta, but no, it's not possible to guarantee there will be no last minute breaking changes.
      • gilgoomesh 6y ago
        > it's possible to ship fixes for a new iOS version before that iOS version actually launches No it isn't. Apple doesn't permit code linking against the latest SDK to be submitted until the SDK goes "GM". That happened today.
        • geoffpado 6y ago
          To expand on this, if your app is "broken" because of changes made that require new OS features in order to "fix" them (such as the new limited permissions for photos, contacts, and location), you were completely unable to issue a new update to fix them until the end of the event. That gives you ≈24 hours to get the new GM, create a build (including setting up your CI system with the new GM, if applicable), make sure no new bugs have been introduced, submit to and get approved by App Review, and launch the update. If you couldn't get all that done in that time, you're probably going to have at least a few negative app reviews from early adopters.
          • saurik 6y ago
            And even then, who is to say that users are going to instantaneously download your update before/during their upgrade to iOS 14 (even if they have automatic app upgrades turned on, which they might not).
            • saagarjha 6y ago
              Being able to point your users to an update to fix their problems when they come to you for support, or when they go to write an angry review that their app is crashing but they see “iOS 14 support” at the top of the app’s page, is likely to help there. Especially since the earliest adopters are frequently technically competent enough to do that but also frequently demanding enough that their apps work on day one.
              • ryandrake 6y ago
                So, maybe you can get to it in a couple of days. Fix what you can using the old SDK before GM build becomes available. Then you have a small amount of updates once apps using the new SDK can be submitted. The app will be temporarily broken for a few days on a brand new OS until the update goes live. Is that really a big deal? The world doesn't come to an end if you get a few bad reviews from impatient users. I remember being in the mobile app development rat race and am so glad I left that world behind. Too much daily panic about things that really don't matter much.
      • faizmokhtar 6y ago
        But they only released the XCode GM today.
      • emsy 6y ago
        I have applications and games from the 90s that still work in Windows 10. The idea that developers have have to constantly push updates is unproductive in my opinion.
        • tikkabhuna 6y ago
          That's a decision made by Microsoft which has pros and cons. There's significant overhead in maintaining this backwards compatibility. For an OS used by corporations all over the world, its worth it. For a mobile OS it will likely reduce their ability to deliver changes.
          • emsy 6y ago
            I agree, I think a lot of what holds Windows back is the baggage from the past. Ideally OSes would live somewhere in a healthy middle, where we can’t expect 10 year old software to run on the current version of an OS. On the other hand we should expect 1 month old software to run on after an OS update.
          • bigiain 6y ago
            Apple used to give a shit there. They did a bunch of extra work so you could run OS9 apps under OSX for a few years, and they did an amazing job of making 68000 code run on PowerPC...
            • saagarjha 6y ago
              Wait until you see Rosetta.
        • tonyedgecombe 6y ago
          A ton of software from that era stopped working when XP was released. For instance storing settings in an application's installation folder was common until Microsoft stopped it. Anything that ran as a service but interacted with the desktop was out of luck. This idea that everything from that period continues to run is a myth.
      • djxfade 6y ago
        I have been developing an app using the new SwiftUI 2.0 for iOS 14 during this beta. My builds have been breaking constantly between beta seeds, due to symbol name changes etc. And Apple have never allowed you to upload a binary linked with a pre GM SDK for release.
    • risyachka 6y ago
      IOS 14 for developers was available for a long time. Also this is a norm with all SDKs, engines, tools etc - new versions always have new bugs that will be fixed in updates. Especially considering that only a small percent usually updates to new version of OS in first few days.
      • novok 6y ago
        Uptake is very rapid, and new bugs can show up between a beta and a GM release of iOS. It's not enough baking time to test against a GM version of iOS and successfully submit an update to the app store that is accepted and reviewed that is the issue here. Imagine if your app crashes on launch with iOS 14 GM and does not on the latest beta, your business has been materially effected as a result.
        • saagarjha 6y ago
          If you’re not seeing how, one sentence: angry users leave reviews.
        • risyachka 6y ago
          I agree, but the amount of apps that crashes is not that big. Also, this is only for a few days, until the developer fixes it. Sure it would be nice to have a few days of extra preparation. But the post is obviously a result of pure frustration by developer and is exaggerated. If you call everyone assholes because of such things then all software industry are assholes.
        • bigiain 6y ago
          I am already hearing screams of "This worked under iOS14beta6 from last week!!! Now it crashes on launch!!!" (From firends/contacts, none of the apps I have to deal with, at least not so far...)
      • gilgoomesh 6y ago
        If previous years are any indication, approximately 30% of users will update on the first day.
      • 6y ago
    • adwmayer 6y ago
      This isn't an sdk issue, it's a purposeful decision by Niantic to not support beta OSes to avoid potential exploits. Fwiw it finally works now with the 14 GM that went out :)
      • metaloqui 6y ago
        It didn't work with the GM, they pushed a Pogo release today which addressed compatibility.
    • metaloqui 6y ago
      Pokemon Go released a fix today and it's already working ahead of iOS 14 being made generally available.
      • akmarinov 6y ago
        A ton of apps released updates today, I feel like these are the companies that are more tight with Apple, getting their app updates in quickly.
  • jamil7 6y ago
    Some apps look broken or are actually broken on iOS14.
    • bzb5 6y ago
      I’m starting to see a pattern where it’s always the same apps that are broken on each major release. I suspect the developers of those apps are simply incompetent.
      • fuj 6y ago
        You seem like a really nice person.
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        Perhaps, but updating their apps on a dime is simply unreasonable regardless.
      • jamil7 6y ago
        We only got the GM last night? how can anyone 100% know for sure their app is not going to break in some unexpected way between then and now? Thats the point of the grace period and the whole article / discussion here.
        • bzb5 6y ago
          I’m talking about apps that have been broken since the first betas.
          • saagarjha 6y ago
            Those aren't the ones we're discussing here.
      • jedberg 6y ago
        Or they're always on the bleeding edge using the latest features.
    • 6y ago
  • HenryBemis 6y ago
    What Jamil7 commented.. I stopped/dropped my iOS dev efforts. I had an app on Apple Store, and eventually pulled it because of the constant updates demanded by Xcode. Yes things were still working, but unless someone is willing to dedicate 'many' days every 3-6-9-12 months to catch-up on new requirements, it's just not worth it. For someone who does dev for a living, it's game on, for others who may want this as a side hustle, it can be overwhelming (keeping up with Apple). I don't blame them, this cat&mouse just didn't work for me. It could as well work just fine for the other part-time/hobby devs.
    • lordnacho 6y ago
      Same here, iOS was never my main thing, but I did write a couple of apps for it. I can't remember the specifics, but it seems way too common for them to change an API that ought to be already settled, for lack of a better term. This just means that every time they change something, the devs have to rebuild, with an unknown amount of time spent. It might be as easy as just changing a couple of lines, or they changed the API so much you have to rethink your code. And this is for apps that aren't using anything new, it's the old APIs that are changing under them.
    • msh 6y ago
      What constant updates demanded? I recently pulled it but I had a ios app since 2010, nothing advanced and was only updated every couple of years. There was only twice I had to do a update because of iOS updates. Once a crashing bug and once to look nice on large screen devices.
      • HenryBemis 6y ago
        You are "lucky" that your code was not affected/impacted from the changes throughout the decade. I have written my first app in the winter of 2017, and because of the functionality/libraries/code I used, every update has been a pain in the butt. Not impossible, but I did it as a hobby, not as a profession/income. I understand the need to progress and develop/create/evolve the programming languages, techniques, environments, it's just not fit for a hobby (in my case)(YMMV).
  • spiderfarmer 6y ago
    But who will suffer from poor app ratings and support requests if something doesn't work correctly? Not Apple.
• pojntfx 6y ago
  Honestly, this is why we need the Web. But Apple even blocks that since they don’t allow any browser engine apart from Safari, meaning that there is no - Add to homescreen dialog - Background sync - Proper push notifications - Proper WASM support (a lot of features are missing) Honestly, at this point, the government should step in, like they did at the end of the last century with Microsoft. Walled gardens hurt innovation a lot, and the App Store in combination with the restricted web on iOS are the ultimate expression of the former.
  • nlitened 6y ago
    Why wouldn't you use Android then? I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications, please.
    • ActorNightly 6y ago
      This doesnt happen though. Look at the state of web apps accessed through your computers browser - there is no issues with quality if you want a customer base.
      • nlitened 6y ago
        My computer browser is indeed fine, but my mother's -- is an entirely different story. I am really happy I can still get her an iPad these days.
        • romanoderoma 6y ago
          My mother buys books when she wants to read My mother uses her phone to actually call people There's no risk she's gonna use apps that she doesn't know My mother is not stupid, for sure she' s not more stupid than me. I'm growing tired of this false and ageist retohric
          • srtjstjsj 6y ago
• pubkraal 6y ago
  I fail to see the point, as far as I know Apple has been vocal about iOS since WWDC and typically releases the OS relatively quick after events. The beta's been out and available for every iOS developer for months in order to prepare for this. There's enough to rib on Apple on, but this really doesn't seem like one?
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Apple has always given one week to use the golden master tools and build to run final tests on and submit your applications so they can be out before a million people try to install it on iOS 14. If your iOS distribution person is out on a camping trip for a couple days, you’re not hitting the deadline anymore. If you live in certain parts of the world where you wake up 7 hours after the event and Xcode takes fifteen hours to download, your don’t hitting the deadline anymore. There is absolutely zero reason why Apple had to do this.
    • metaloqui 6y ago
      Unless your app is broken by the iOS update there's no more urgency to release an update than there is for point releases.
      • bigiain 6y ago
        I am in a slightly uncomfortable position of being _fairly_ sure none of our apps were broken under iOS14beta6 last week, but still assumed I'd get the traditional week between the new xCode GM and users getting iOS14 pushed out to them.
        • saagarjha 6y ago
          Nit: last week’s release was beta 8.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • 6y ago
• lanevorockz 6y ago
  Apple greatest asset is the accessibility to a large market. In return to the loyalty of the clients they do an excellent work in validating apps for isolation, privacy and vetting. Technology is not magic and bugs exist, so Apple chose this methodology for their store. If companies are able to hijack this process by uploading assets it could be easy to exploit. We are talking about a personal phone not a remote computer. Imagine if hackers got free reign in the private information of key political figures ? I choose privacy thank you very much.
  • ocbyc 6y ago
    What?
  • harpratap 6y ago
    Privacy and user freedom are not two mutually exclusive things. You can have both at the same time too.
  • calcifer 6y ago
    This comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with the article, which is about the short launch window for iOS 14 and issues surrounding that. Are you simply reacting to the title?
    • lanevorockz 6y ago
      Just trying to give the context of why Apple is so protective to the App Store and why these lead them to do some unreasonable decisions. I wanted to break the preconception that software is just inherently secure. If anything it's super brittle and the continuous delivery cycle has its downsides.
      • Apocryphon 6y ago
        That has absolutely nothing to do with why they would depart from their usual reliable release cycle and force developers to scramble to update their apps for iOS 14.
• oneplane 6y ago
  Why are people constantly personifying corporations? All you're going to end up with is a sociopath as that's what large companies are when you try to do that. Apple isn't a single person with evil intentions that thought: "let's make it very hard to work with this stuff", even if it might seem that way. It's far more likely that: - The alternative was worse - An internal policy or rule had unforeseen side-effects in planning or releasing - The team doing the work on the release and the team doing relations aren't the same team and didn't communicate properly - A deadline was set and because it was only met just barely you get an odd release schedule Does that mean that this release is a fun planned schedule? No. But it doesn't mean the thousands of people working there are combined into one big person that wants to do bad things to you.
  • etripe 6y ago
    > Why are people constantly personifying corporations? Because corporations aren't democratic, so their policies are not the sum of all employees working there's opinions. Most of it is the result of top-down decisions, which in practice are made by fewer than 20 people: the board and the CEO. Technically, we could add shareholders to that list, but IIRC they barely exercise their right to vote. What's more: corporations as legal entities specifically exist to limit liability for the aforementioned people. So when "Facebook" doesn't care about your privacy, it's Zuck and the board that don't, not individual developers. When "Shell" sponsors climate change denial, it's the board, not someone pumping your gas deciding. The personification is valid up to a point because the corporation as such is only a (useful) fictional construct. > It's far more likely that [...] I don't know the broader history of Apple's behaviour towards developers since I'm not an iOS developer, so I can't say whether this is a matter of policy or a snafu. Based on what I know, I'd also lean towards incompetence and not malice in this particular case.
• ecmascript 6y ago
  Web Web web, fuck native apps.
  • bluescrn 6y ago
    Web is great for a lot of things. But not games, especially if you want efficiency.
    • jamil7 6y ago
      Or things like real time audio processing, AR or on device ML. Anything thats not a JSON viewer or CRUD app basically.
      • ecmascript 6y ago
        I think that is a very pessimistic view of what you actually can achieve in a browser! With web assembly a lot of those things actually are very possible today.
        • unnouinceput 6y ago
          web will never become as fast as native apps. it's the model. until that one is changed this will always be a fact.
          • ecmascript 6y ago
            Sure that is true, but it is fast enough for many apps already and will be even faster in the future or do you really argue that most native apps on Apple Store couldn't be done as a web app?
            • unnouinceput 6y ago
              Yes, you're right. actually not most, but more close to 95% of them apps could be done as web instead. Yet, on mission critical apps while they can be done as web apps, the decision to make them native it's not a choice, is a must.
• philliphaydon 6y ago
  I thought App developers would be testing against the beta version? I don't really understand the problem. There's public beta's, it's out of beta, and will go to the public tomorrow, apps will continue to work.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    You cannot submit you application except using the toolchain that was released today, which is occasionally different enough from the beta tools that your app will no longer work. So now you have a broken app and just hours to fix it, and then somehow App Review is going to get through it while a thousand other people are submitting at the same time you are? No way.
    • 0x0 6y ago
      Well you can always ship updates with the old iOS 13 SDK toolchain (Xcode 11) the entire time. You could have tested on the iOS 14 betas, and if you found a crash, you could try to implement a workaround and resubmit in the weeks and months leading up to today. Sometimes your crash is because of bad assumptions in your code, or sometimes your crash is due to real Apple bugs creeping into the iOS APIs. Not saying it's always possible to implement a workaround, but it's not as bad as the blog post makes it out to be.
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        That is correct. But I know for many apps building for iOS 14 is a requirement or bad things will happen™.
        • 0x0 6y ago
          Care to elaborate? Did Apple break backwards compatibility with apps built on the iOS 13 SDK with no way to work around it? Seems hard to believe that everyone upgrading to iOS 14 will end up with no functional third party apps today?
• dmitriid 6y ago
  > The next major release of iOS is announced to be shipping on Friday (in a few days) or sometime the following week, like the next Tuesday. > But today, Apple announced that iOS 14 is shipping tomorrow. So... the only difference is it's not "few days" but "one day"? For an OS update everyone knew was coming because "for as long as I can remember it goes something like this"? What's the assholery?
  • nurettin 6y ago
    I think they mean that the developers usually get development version of the OS to install into their build system and test if anything is broken or add new features for that OS which gives them an advantage over competition and reduces random uninstalls.
    • dmitriid 6y ago
      Now I'm reading top comment, and this makes much more sense [1] Yeah it is an asshole move on Apple's part [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24490605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24490605
• xenospn 6y ago
  No one said you HAVE to update your app to iOS14 on day 1. Also, the beta versions have been out for months. If you’re not ready, it’s your fault.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    If you’re not out on day 1 and your app has more than a few users, expect bad reviews and bug reports. The beta being out for months doesn’t change the fact that you have something like 15 hours to build and submit your app and hope it gets through review.
  • rovr138 6y ago
    You can’t build against the latest version until Xcode is released and Apple enables submissions of the latest apps. That was done after the announcement
• tracer4201 6y ago
  The profane language really isn’t necessary. It would be helpful to understand what portion of apps are negatively impacted by the new iOS version. If it’s insignificant, there’s really no strong incentive for Apple to specifically set a launch date with developers. It’s besides the point by the profanity just weakens the argument. Presumably the iOS beta has been out long enough that developers could have pushed out an update if their app seriously breaks with the update.
  • reedf1 6y ago
    Yeah it's fucking bullshit.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    > there’s really no strong incentive for Apple to specifically set a launch date with developers Except that they used to do it a week later every year? And that there is no reason to release it tomorrow, like new hardware that ships with that pre-installed? > Presumably the iOS beta has been out long enough that developers could have pushed out an update if their app seriously breaks with the update. You can’t push out an update for the new OS except using the blessed toolchain that Apple released today. That’s what we’re annoyed about, not that the beta period was too short.
  • bumblebritches5 6y ago
    > The profane language really isn’t necessary. No one cares, boomer.
  • alias_neo 6y ago
    People have different opinions on the use of profanity. It's a language tool, like any other, and I find in my use of it, it expresses sentiment quite clearly, whether that be humour or frustration. The article is the author's speech, it is their choice to use or not use language tools as they desire, but I ask you this. How would you title the article while maintaining the clear and concise form? I don't believe profanity does weaken the argument, it shows that people (developers) are getting beyond the point of being able to maintain their decorum because of the sheer frustration at the arbitrary rules and actions from a company who's trillions are made, in a no insignificant part on the backs of others' work.
• newbie578 6y ago
  Man, don't you understand that you are not allowed to critize Apple here. Don't touch my walled garden and (fake) privacy. iOS 14 has introduced home screen widgets, it is a game-changer man, it has only been on Android for like 7 years :)
  • jamil7 6y ago
    > Man, don't you understand that you are not allowed to critize Apple here. Don't touch my walled garden and (fake) privacy. The community here over the last few months and prominent people in the Apple developer community itself have been very critical of Apple and their behaviour lately, so I don't feel as if this holds true.
    • actuator 6y ago
      His downvoted comment would say otherwise. For comparison, FB might have done more harm, so I guess one might expect it but just notice the difference between the near unanimous dislike for FB compared to divide in criticism of Apple. Out of FAANG, only Netflix might have higher positivity around them in HN.
      • jamil7 6y ago
        I felt the downvoting was more in response to the comment itself sort of missing the point and coming off a bit tone deaf. I agree with your point though.
      • saberience 6y ago
        He is downvoted because his comment isn't useful or encouraging healthy debate, not to mention its tone and spelling mistake. It reads like a snarky, angry man posting irrationally late at night.
• wernercd 6y ago
  Acting?
• Animats 6y ago
  Is Apple moving to a model where all the apps that matter come from Apple?
  • unnouinceput 6y ago
    probably. And I like that, it means they will finally become the true vertical company they wanted from beginning. Meaning they'll lose all developers and become a niche company. Meanwhile what I really want to see in developers world is the same in cellphone area as is in PC area. Freedom of choice of what OS to put on my phone. On PC I can have HDD partitions and install Win/Lin/Mac all in the same hardware. This is my dream.
    • leptons 6y ago
      There are x86 tablets that dual-boot Android and Windows. Pretty sure now that Windows runs on ARM there would be similar devices that do the same on ARM.
      • unnouinceput 6y ago
        I know they are. But my point is about that currently any PC, be it desktop or laptop has that possibility right from the start. And I do mean any. Actually is even better then any current. It's close to any in past 5 years at least can do this. Can you say the same for smartphones/tablets?
  • tennineeight 6y ago
    I mean, why should developers get 70% of the money, right? /s
  • gandutraveler 6y ago
    AppleBasics
  • pier25 6y ago
    Maybe. Personally on macOS or iOS I rarely use any of Apple's apps but I imagine I'm in the minority.
• bad_user 6y ago
  I've been using the betas, and haven't had any problems with the apps. What patches are required for apps to work on iOS 14?
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    If you use some sort of thing that the new privacy things will block you need to update to account for the new behavior. If you have new features you want users to have you need to build with the new SDK. If you have fixes for your app being broken (either because of you or Apple’s bugs) you need to fix them.
    • acqq 6y ago
      > If you use some sort of thing that the new privacy things will block you need to update to account for the new behavior. I am not shedding a tear for the producers of the apps that used privacy invading code all the time, and didn't stop since iOS betas exist, waiting instead for "official iOS 14" to "do something" -- which is probably forcing the user to agree or not use the app. I hope I'm wrong, and to accept that I'd need a specific example.
      • bad_user 6y ago
        Having only ~24 hours to submit a fix for your app, or risk negative reviews from disgruntled users ... is pretty shitty though. Apparently developers are unable to do this during the betas.
      • geoffpado 6y ago
        One of my apps, Black Highlighter [0], uses the photo library permissions to display your library to actually pick a image to edit in the app, and also to write your edited images back to the library. This is the main functionality of the app, and it's what people want to be able to do. I'm not doing anything nefarious with people's images, I'm just… building an image editor. Can I use other methods to let people pick an image? Sure. But until iOS 14, they were a demonstrably worse experience. Even still, it's a bit odd, because the initial screen of the app becomes a big blank view with a button to display the system photo picker. I did my due diligence and I added a new button to use the new iOS 14 system photo picker months ago, when Apple first announced these changes. But until today at 11am, I could not ship those changes. Period. Nothing I could do to have a version available for users any time before today. In under 24 hours, I have to update my CI system, generate a build, check to make sure nothing broke, submit for App Review, and hope I get approved. But wait! I also have two other apps that have iOS 14 functionality. So I've got to do those as well. And these are just my side projects. I have a day job, doing the same kind of work. And I'm the iOS CI "guru" there, so I've got to do the exact same thing… make sure Xcode 12 is updated on all our build agents, get actual builds out of them, submit to the store, etc. All of the privacy work is done. It's been done. But the difference between ≈24 hours to get final builds out the door and a week to get final builds out the door is huge when you've got multiple different projects to handle. Especially when App Review is eating several of those hours all on its own. So guess what? My projects are going to fall by the wayside, in favor of my day job. Is it a big deal? Who knows. Maybe I'll get some bad reviews. That'll suck a lot. Did it need to be this way? Absolutely not. Apple could have given us the week that they normally do, and everything would have been fine. Instead, they gave us a day, and that's just not enough time. So apps people use and like are just going to be broken for a few days, and there's not a thing developers can do about it. ### [0]: https://blackhighlighter.app https://blackhighlighter.app
• saagarjha 6y ago
  This article is missing the best part, that the new Xcode you have to use to build your app was released today at 11 AM, with a build number of ‘208. It was a really strange build in that it was missing components to build for Apple silicon: for that you need to use the old beta, which Apple has kept up on their website so you can juggle both. But that’s not all! Soon afterwards they changed the website saying the new Xcode was actually build ’209. Around this time people had finished downloading the update, which was slow because everyone was freaking out about getting their app ready in time and grabbing it at the same time, and they realized that Xcode wouldn’t let them upload their updates. So everyone thought that of course build ‘209 was the right thing to get so they hit the website again to download the file…except Apple doesn’t do checksums, obviously, they do a really slow verification thing that every iOS developer hates with a passion and gives no useful information. In this case manually running the checksums told everyone that while Apple had updated the version they claimed to be have on their website, everyone was still getting build 208 and this build could not be used to submit updates. Then, later in the afternoon, Apple flipped the switch to allow build ‘208 to submit updates (which now need to go through review…). But that’s not all! In the evening at around 7 people started getting a different Xcode, the actual build ‘209 they claimed there were distributing all along…and now every developer is stuck with the decision of whether they should pull their old binary they uploaded and recompile with build ‘209 (as there are many differences between the two, based on a diff -r) or wing it. Totally uncool, totally unnecessary. If anything the blog post is not strongly worded enough about how much of a affront this is to developers. Edit: and guess what, if Apple didn’t have advance notice of this do you think their own build process could have handled it? I’d bet money on “no”. XBS takes hours itself to spin up a new build, and with the usual testing a validation you see even the fastest updates taking at least a day. Back in iOS 7 it took them two to get critical fixes out the door, and patching the unc0ver 0-day took like a week for reference.
  • realusername 6y ago
    > iOS developer hates with a passion and gives no useful information That's typical Apple, they are allergic to technical info and error display, when things are not working, there's no way to know why.
• tinus_hn 6y ago
  > the final public release of iOS 14 ships tomorrow, which came as quite a shock to all third-party developers. Really? This is the way they have done the releases for about 10 years now.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Nope, they ship a GM a week in advance.
• numair 6y ago
  Wait, what? Did Apple announce that GM is released to public beta, or did they announce that they are actually pushing out iOS 14 to over 1B devices as of tomorrow? Because the two are very different. If it’s the former, I agree with the author that it’s a complete disaster for a lot of development teams. There is really no sane reason to do something like this, so I just can’t imagine it’s true — it’s not like the OS update has to be pushed out ASAP because some magical new device or service requires it.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Latter: iOS 14 is going out to 2 billion devices tomorrow, probably 10 AM.
    • bigiain 6y ago
      My phone is offering to install it right now (In Australia, 19:35:00+10:00). It's _possible_ I'm getting it early because I've been running the recent betas on this phone.
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        That’s probably the GM, which went out today.
• camillomiller 6y ago
  My take. Developers will be positively surprised today to find out how fast their app updates will hit the store if their app is already in the App Store. Apple could have released everything next Friday, including products that need the new iOS, but decided to pull the trigger right away. They MUST have a plan on why acting like this make sense. Still, it's 2020, so maybe I'm wrong and it's just another sign of the weird times we're living.
  • camillomiller 6y ago
    Just replying to my own comment to point out that iOS 14 is out since 12 hrs, more or less, and the world hasn't ended, nor the users have taken to the streets pitchforks in hand.
• myl 6y ago
  A testament to the low software grade I’ve come to expect from Apple. I wonder if anyone inside Apple reads HN abiding NDAs or they simply have no clue.
  • xiphias2 6y ago
    Of course they do, HN is huge. But don't think that the software engineers there have much more ability to make decisions than you.
• tobltobs 6y ago
  They can because Google with Android sucks also. If you are an app developer just get used to bend over.
• dayjobpork 6y ago
  Don't worry Apple hates users too. I've once had a Windows update break software, and I was easily able to downgrade the broken update (and it wasn't really MSvs fault entirely, graphics driver issue). Multiple times I've had ipad updates break apps, and some apps have never worked again because the developers don't bother updating the app, and Apple blocks downgrading because...
  • rovr138 6y ago
    Windows has broken installations in the past, https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/16/windows-10-kb4532693-update-is-now-causing-boot-failures/ https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/16/windows-10-kb453269... It’s not all roses over there.
    • thefz 6y ago
      As a Windows sysadmin I hate the OS with a passion, but at least on it you have one of the best development platforms out there (.net).
      • scarface74 6y ago
        .Net hasn’t been tied to Windows for years.
    • gamblor956 6y ago
      The point is that windows can break but it provides you tools to undo the break. With Apple, you're SOL.
  • woah 6y ago
    I'm not endorsing the stupid stuff that Apple has been doing in the article, but for your case, I don't see what they should have done differently. Maintaining backwards compatibility for every app is a big technical requirement, and Apple chooses to spend their efforts elsewhere. Microsoft takes the opposite route because they have many enterprise customers who have to keep using an internal CRM that was last updated in 1994 and all the developers have died. If you want your OS to support abandoned apps, then you should definitely choose Microsoft. But most people have other priorities. Similarly, keeping devices on old OS versions has a cost too. They could be insecure, opening users to the risk of compromise of their personal data. Newer apps will not work. Having a significant proportion of devices that have not bothered to upgrade stops developers from using the newest OS features (for an extreme version of this phenomena, remember ie6). Apple prioritizes getting users and apps on the latest OS releases over perpetual support of abandonware. The proportion of users who need to support abandoned software is probably tiny compared to those who can benefit from OS updates. It's a conscious choice, and other vendors choose differently.
• fellellor 6y ago
  It’s only a fuck up if there are adverse consequences.
• prvc 6y ago
  At the risk of sounding frivolous: because it is an asshole. There's a lesson in that, I think.
• jenkstom 6y ago
  I guess I have a minority view, but when were they not? Steve Jobs was famously toxic (which is just popular term to describe someone with a cluster B personality disorder, aka "psychopath"). But he dresses like a rock star and creates beautiful things and so everybody is willing to forgive him. This is kind of like the abused spouse who, after decades of abuse, finally realizes he or she was making excuses for a psychopath all along. Just file for divorce and get it over with. The abuser will make sure it's a horrible experience for you, but you'll be happier in the end.
  • thefz 6y ago
    Jobs' whole career has been: rejecting other people's work until his engineers (not him) spat out something he thought worthy. And usually he's revered more by non techs.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • Razengan 6y ago
      https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/24/bill-gates-i-was-so-jealous-of-genius-steve-jobs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/24/bill-gates-i-was-so-jealous-...
  • deleted 6y ago
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• catoc 6y ago
  My response to the Apple Developer Feedback Request HOW CAN APPLE MAKE APP REVIEW BETTER? App Review has become faster but still feels very unsafe and unreliable. It feels like being delivered to the whims of the gods. They may strike you down, kill your business and refuse to negotiate about it. Speaking about which, speaking with app review is infuriating! They will mindlessly reiterate the same quasi-legal lingo about how your app should confirm to this or that guideline completely ignoring whatever actual logical or societally relevant or otherwise actually meaningful argument is made on the other side. I understand it is not these people themselves - they must hate their jobs - but the rules they themselves are bound to - but the resulting experience is god awful. HOW SATISFIED ARE YOU WITH THE FOLLOWING APPLE DEVELOPER RESOURCES? I used to like Apple - look up to your company. I was elated to be able to visit the WWDC. Even spoke with Tim Cook - however briefly. Watching the 15 Sept Apple Event I noticed I was getting more and more annoyed. I really resent the dishonesty. I feel that I am starting to actually hate what Apple has become to stand for. -"We treat all developers equally". - The tax evasions via Ireland. - Bullying a tiny company about a pear-shaped logo - Pretending to care about freedom of speech while supporting censorship and banning of apps in china. - the list goes on Apple tries to present itself as a force of good - but has become a despicable company. It makes me sad. You are the one company that could actually be a force of good. Untouchable. You could really make a difference. Yet you don't. Well not in a good way at least. HOW CAN APPLE IMPROVE THE TOOLS AND SERVICES IT PROVIDES AS A DEVELOPMENT PLATFORM? Be as specific and descriptive as possible Focus on quality more than on constantly churning out new features - it's not necessary. You are Apple - you determine what happens. You used to stand for the best. It used to feel remarkable to use and work with Apple products. It's now just above par. Why? You're worth 2 trillion dollars already. Is 2.2 trillion more important than going back to actually making the best again. HOW CAN APPLE MAKE THE APP STORE A BETTER PLATFORM FOR DISTRIBUTING YOUR APPS? Be as specific and descriptive as possible "This app is damaged and may harm your computer" - stop that! At least try to be reasonable. Please!
• bsenftner 6y ago
  Apple has always been an asshole. I was an original Macintosh beta tester - I had a Mac summer of'83, 6 months before their release. Yet, I have never shipped commercial Apple software. Their developer treatment has never been ethical, and I simply never put up with it.
  • aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
    What were you working on?
• pier25 6y ago
  I'm sure some people at Apple do care about developers, but these are not the people making the important decisions. Apple knows they are in control of +60% of the app mobile revenue worldwide. It wouldn't surprise me if management believed third party developers should consider themselves privileged to be on their platform.
• catmistake 6y ago
  First of all, the complainers do not speak for me, yet they seem to be speaking for everyone, that everyone has this problem because of 24-hour notice of the release of iOS14. Anyone that has a work flow, even a personal workflow having nothing to do with actual earning of income, that updates as soon as an update is available, is an asshole to themselves, and a compulsive one at that. If there are no security patches, bug fixes or features that I desperately need, I don't update. I'm still running iPadOS13.4 and I may never update. The problem here is not Apple's. Apple can do as it wants, and is under no obligation to make things convenient for the egotistical developers. From my perspective, (and fallacy argument from authority here, but fwiw, I studied computer science, flunky career in systems administration, and I am perfectly aware I rarely did any computer science, but am also aware programming is not computer science, either... CS is just math, and that is all... I personally just liked the problem solving necessities that sysadmining provided me, along with a decent living... I enjoyed solving those puzzles), developing for iOS sounds easy as snot. Developing a killer app is more difficult in that it must be innovative, clever, beautiful, and useful. But 99% of the apps on AppStore, and including 90% of the games, are duplicates of stuff that has been around forever. Where is the innovation? And I have very little sympathy for developers because most of them made my life a living hell for 20 years. It is that precious few that did the opposite that I love, nay, that I worship. What are the chances anyone in this group of developer blamers and complainers, borderline narcissist egoists, are among them? Slim to none. Apple gave you excellent tools. You have your own source code. Get something done! It doesn't matter how long it takes. But with the tools Apple provides, seems to me it is loading the tools, loading the source, grooming the source for the update, clicking a few radio buttons, compiling, and publishing. Shut up and get something done, or bail and go develop for another platform. Jeesh. Make install not war.
• varispeed 6y ago
  Apple has become an ecosystem to avoid at all cost. From denying the right to repair, design of devices to make it prone to catastrophic failures, making it difficult to recover own data (to force people to use cloud backup so they can look at all your data) and many more (like trying to make employees go through security checks without being paid for it)... Greed has blinded them.
• ericzawo 6y ago
  You don't become a $2 Trillion company being friendly.
  • deleted 6y ago
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• nimbius 6y ago
  Pretty simple answer. in August 2020 they became the first $2 trillion U.S. company. There is no repercussion for them at this point to treat everyone from Epic Games, to your run-of-the-mill Xcode devs, like trash. In the case of the former, you can outlast these comparatively small players for decades with flush cash reserves and an army of bored attorneys with nothing better to do than watch your pittance of a legal team fight it endlessly until the last star falls from the heavens. Epic may want a fight, but its investors would capitulate sooner than people like Tim Sweeney think. as for the latter, Apple has a fun track record of running small developers into the dirt. Either you sell your company to them, or they just build the same app in-house and blacklist you from the market. Id also argue that the average apple afficionado outside of HN just doesnt care what apple does. Apple makes affluent status symbols and markets a premium brand identity, so developers like facebook and epic are hungry to tap into a market thats not only willing to drop more than a grand on a cellphone and accessories, but doesnt question often times predatory microtransactions. They want cash cows, apple runs the farm. full confession though, i dont know how small devs fight this, and id be eager to know if anyone on HN has a cogent strategy? a boycott seems most effective.
• MBCook 6y ago
  Doesn’t the watch come out on Friday? With watchOS 7? Which requires iOS 14? It sounds like due to hardware they were going to have to release iOS 14 in a day or two.
• fanatic2pope 6y ago
  Looking at the author's github profile gives a pretty clear answer. You are dependent on Apple, they are not dependent on you.
• josefrichter 6y ago
  I don’t understand. Current apps will run just fine, won’t they? Also beta versions of iOS and XCode have been around for months - so it’s not like you’re starting from scratch today. And it’s not like you absolutely must release tomorrow, do you?
  • izacus 6y ago
    There's absolutely no guarantee current apps will run fine - Apple regularly adds new restrictions and API changes which break existing apps. They also tend to add a lot of new bugs every release which need to be worked around.
    • josefrichter 6y ago
      Has Apple ever added a major breaking change one day before release of new iOS version?
      • esperent 6y ago
        Why does one day matter? Even if it was a month it's unlikely every single app developer could get a fix in time.
        • josefrichter 6y ago
          > Why does one day matter? That's what the original article is trying to suggest. > it's unlikely every single app developer could get a fix in time Are you suggesting to freeze iOS development?
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        I know people who have had the GM break their apps and are scrambling right now.
      • izacus 6y ago
        Yes, it certanly did for us. Not a feature breaking change, but they did add app breaking bugs with last GM version that had to be fixed in a hurry. iOS 14 is also full of new quirks.
• jmull 6y ago
  It's not that hard to figure out what happened... Apple set a hard deadline for themselves. This would have been some time back, with the purpose of coordinating various development threads, manufacturing, marketing, and the holiday season. But the OS side slipped. They must have been dealing with some pretty gnarly issues to give devs only hours with the GM seed and even less time with the version of Xcode you can use to actually release updates. Makes we wonder what the issues are and whether the OS is the only thing that slipped? ...time will tell if they shouldn't gone ahead pushed everything back. That would have been very costly, but an unstable OS release that, e.g., loses or exposes user data for lots of users would be costly as well. We'll see. > Who is in charge of iOS releases at Apple that thought this was a good idea? Who is the head of Developer Relations that thought this was a good idea? I think, obviously, nobody did. It wasn't planned.
• xvolter 6y ago
  Maybe I am missing something, but iOS 14 has had beta versions out for developers for months; I had been running iOS14 and Big Sur for testing for weeks. Apple has always had developer previews and at some point, when mostly stable, they often release public previews to get a few interested users involved in testing as well. They've been working with developers for a long time on the new App Clips functionality and that's been open for developers to start working. So I am not following what is this article is saying? It seems like they're suggesting that Apple should release iOS a few days after announcing, but, that isn't enough time for most developers to test and release updates for a major iOS update; but Apple never intended those few days to be the only time developers had.
  • davidwhodge 6y ago
    This is specifically about the GM build which is necessary for final builds, validation, and submission. Often developers have at least a week to do final checks and submissions with this build.
  • selykg 6y ago
    It's more being prepared to ship their product. Usually there's a period of time between announcement and when it ships, such that a developer can get the release version of Xcode (if necessary), do some final testing, then send any updates to Apple for review. With enough lead time that their updated app can be available on the App Store the same day as the iOS update being available. That isn't really possible this time around.
    • zepto 6y ago
      What’s the downside of the update not being in the store today vs next week?
      • selykg 6y ago
        Several downsides Say the iOS update has brand new features. Your app can't take advantage of those fancy new features and your users don't get them until next week either. Possible marketing, usually Apple has categories in the App Store for apps that support the latest features or are ready for that iOS version. They could in theory do this next week I guess, but point is there's excitement today, and will be less next week. Possible bugs in your current app that aren't fixed but exist only in the latest iOS. If you base your entire process on past experience you planned to release bug fixes for iOS 14 with a larger update and now those updates aren't available to a majority of your userbase. Edit: removed a part that was inaccurate.
• brunoluiz 6y ago
  Considering all the bad press Apple is having with devs at the moment (from Spotify and EPIC, to this), I wonder how these behaviours haven’t back-fired yet. At the end of the day, a platform without apps or developers dies (Windows Phone users say hi). If devs get so mad at some point and stop pushing new apps or updates, I wonder if Apple would change their position. Of course, I suppose this is still hard because 1) they are the most profitable mobile platform 2) many companies kinda rely on mobile. But well, no one predicted 2020 who knows what will come
  • Heliosmaster 6y ago
    many developers have really no choice (at least not individually). They don't really have the means to vote with their wallets, as foregoing the whole iOS market is.. not a choice. What EPIC is doing is trying to rally people on their side of the fight. This is the same reason why people (workers) have unions, in the traditional job market. It's not really comparable because developers are not workers, but there are some similarities: Apple benefits from the developers (immensely, with your Windows Phone example) and the developers too.. but Apple has the upper hand, by FAR.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • zepto 6y ago
      Epic doesn’t care about anything except for their own profits.
      • Heliosmaster 6y ago
        I believe so too, but that does not mean anything for my argument. They are trying to rally people so that they can get better profits. The fact that maybe (and i'm skeptical about it) other people do too, it's coincidental for them, i'm sure.
      • anfilt 6y ago
        Just because it's in their self interests does not mean getting rid of the forced walled garden does not benefit other developers. At the end of the users own the devices not apple. It should ultimately be up to the user.
• api 6y ago
  Microsoft's native development environments are a pain in the butt too, and they're constantly introducing and then deprecating stuff. If you hate Electron don't blame Electron. Blame Apple and Microsoft.
• zepto 6y ago
  Can someone explain what the actual problem is? I’ve been using the betas and all of my existing apps work fine. I’m developing for ios14, and don’t see any particular reason for my app to be out today. What actual adverse effects are there to this? Is there a class of app that runs on ios13 but is broken on ios14?
  • dkonofalski 6y ago
    I'm in the same boat. All my apps are working and we've been testing against the betas without issues. Downloaded the GM and submitted for review. I can't imagine that A) there is a huge grouping of apps that will suddenly break and B) that there's any kind of reason for these apps to need this update out today. It's not like there's a new feature or SDK that would make or break an app over 1 day or even a week.
  • amiantos 6y ago
    I think the rub is that a lot of the apps built at these massive companies use unnecessary third party frameworks and build their apps in janky ways, so while the content of their app doesn't appear to need anything special, it's actually standing on top of a house of cards built out of 3rd party APIs that are doing janky things that break between OS updates. If they just built their apps fully natively, using UIKit exclusively, they likely wouldn't have any problems between releases like you, I, and other devs see.
    • zepto 6y ago
      Thanks - this is a very helpful insight.
    • TheKarateKid 6y ago
      Yes, let’s have the company pay for an entire development team to learn Obj-C or have additional hires, just so their apps can do on Apple’s platform what it can do everywhere else just fine. /s
      • zepto 6y ago
• spieglt 6y ago
  I like making my side projects cross-platform when possible. But I'm done trying to get code signing to work, I won't pay Apple $100 to distribute free software, and I have no interest in using XCode, so I feel basically restricted to Linux and Windows only at this point.
• ksearch 6y ago
  I feel like I should spend that time testing and making my app ready for release rather than ranting and typing the article.
• dangus 6y ago
  What’s the supposed downside to running an app designed for iOS 13 on an iOS 14 iPhone? File this one under “things that won’t matter and will be entirely forgotten in two weeks.”
• deleted 6y ago
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• jeffrallen 6y ago
  Because they can
• g42gregory 6y ago
  I feel that, as industry, we need to move back to the rich, browser-based applications on the mobile phones. Apple-Google duopoly is just not the way to live. As tech community, we can take our power back. I think the good start is to start using web on mobile phones.
  • varispeed 6y ago
    It is a matter of time they will make it difficult if not impossible or they will start blocking websites unless authors start paying % per visitor.
    • g42gregory 6y ago
      Both Google and Apple currently subscribe to the "open internet" philosophy on mobile phones. This was their selling point against the old, "walled garden internet", vendors. If they change that and start blocking the sites, I think we will see a serious backlash. We will begin to switch to Linux phones then. :-)
• jarjoura 6y ago
  When I read this, all I'm really reading is, Apple's biggest cultural position on secrecy is also its biggest pain-point for external developers. Secrecy is so ingrained in that company, at all levels, that it will never/ever change without fundamentally changing what/who Apple is as a company. External developers, since the launch of the App Store, have been expected to be thankful that Apple even lets them on to their precious marketplace. There's also no special treatment when at bigger companies either. The only thing I've experienced is that we were invited to port our product to iOS 7's new flat UI just to be featured 6 weeks ahead of their rumored keynote date. They didn't even give us an actual time to submit. Bigger products I've worked on do get a developer relations support person who makes sure we're able to meet Apple's latest demands, but they are not connected to the engineering (R&D) teams, so feedback is mostly downward. For example, they would ask why haven't we ported things to Metal yet? If we inform them there is a bug or missing documentation, they will make sure they get engineering involved to fix the bug so we can continue porting to Metal. Bugs are another huge pain point that developers complain about. Whenever there's an issue, we're told, file the bug and it magically goes off into a black void with no feedback until some point in the future when the OS release has shipped and then we get to find out whether they decided to fix the issue or to mark it "Works as expected." It really sucks that the company that builds the best tech is also the most toxic to partner with. They add undue stress and expect too much from their developer community. Partnerships should work both ways! Developers bring new experiences that light up the hardware, and make the platform better as a whole. However, Apple has somehow found a way to make the partnerships mostly one-sided and that will never change. The only way out is really for all the coolest new features to land on Android and to put software in maintenance mode on iOS. Yet, I cannot fathom how that would ever happen either as that's 50% of the population in the US you would make suffer for the cause.
• m3kw9 6y ago
  There should be almost no effect on a developer because if you weren’t ready after 8 betas + GM seed, an extra week isn’t gonna help most.
• simonkafan 6y ago
  The solution would be simple: Stop supporting Apple. Don't release apps on their platform. As long as everyone is just blindly following their orders, nothing will change. And change is possible: Microsoft didn't care much about developers and users when IE was browser market leader and look what happened.
• moron4hire 6y ago
  Because it's Texas Hold 'Em. Once you have the biggest pot, you can bully everyone else into giving you the rest of there's.
• lcnmrn 6y ago
  Apple isn't one person any longer, just Steve. There are thousands of Apple employees following guidelines set by other hundreds of other managers and executives who don't know what they are doing.
• deadmik3 6y ago
  What's the saying, hey, don't like it just start your own Apple :-)
• mdoms 6y ago
  Read any Hacker News thread about the awful crap Apple is constantly pulling to see why they are acting like assholes- because their core fanbase (which is VERY big) will defend their actions regardless.
• pvorb 6y ago
  Do developers get a pre-release of iOS to test on or how can you release a new version of your app before the targeted OS is released? Also, why do you need to release a new version at all? I'd expect the platform to stay largely compatible. (Obviously, I haven't developed anything for the Apple ecosystem, so these are genuine questions.)
  • Splendor 6y ago
    > Do developers get a pre-release of iOS to test on? Yes, but those pre-release OS versions are changed and updated by Apple as the process goes along. So once Apple declares the final version (AKA Gold Master), then everyone needs to regression test their apps against this final version that will be installed on user devices. The process of submitting the app update to the store must be done with a new toolchain as well. Usually the GM version and new toolchain are available 1 week before release. This time they were only available 1 day before. Even if all the development is done and the testing against the GM version goes smoothly, 1 day is a very short turn-around for getting your app update approved by Apple, especially on a day where lots of other developers will be submitting updates too. > Also, why do you need to release a new version at all? Sometimes the new version introduces unintentional bugs that break existing functionality and developers have to figure out how to work around it. Sometimes Apple intentionally deprecates existing functionality. These are things that developers can address with the pre-release versions, but again, those are moving targets and until the GM version is released, you don't know for sure.
    • pvorb 6y ago
      Thank you for the patient explanation.
• reportgunner 6y ago
  It is beyond me why people still think Apple is good for them. edit: perhaps one of these have something to do with it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost
  • Razengan 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome and pretty sure comments like that break a few guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If not, @dang: Can HN have a rule against such low-quality hyperbole? It serves no purpose but to sour any chance to have a "conversation".
    • reportgunner 6y ago
      I'm sorry, who is the tall poppy here in your opinion? There is awfully little information in your link so I don't really get how it's related.